🎙️ EP67: Your Network Is Your Net Worth — Kelly Hoey | InvestHer Podcast

Hi there. Welcome or welcome back to InvestHer Podcast. I'm Anne Ravanona, your host and funding friend, and I'm so glad you're here. InvestHer Podcast exists for one reason: to share the real, unfiltered stories of funded women founders, investors, and ecosystem changemakers from around the world, and to give them the visibility and airtime they deserve. Because here's what we know: women are building extraordinary businesses. And yet their stories are still too often missing from the conversation. We're here to change that. Every episode, I sit down with someone who's in the trenches of building, funding, or backing women-founded ventures. And we talk about the real stuff, the pivots, the rejections, the fundraising lessons nobody tells you about, and the wins, because there are plenty of those too. Now, I can't wait for you to hear this. Let's dive in. Researchers spent as long as 20 years inside 15 big corporations asking why some women rose to the top while equally qualified women stalled. It wasn't ambition. The ones who stalled were networking exactly like the men. Author Kelly Hoey, she's back with us, and she got curious about that research and followed that thread all the way to write her second book. After Build Your Dream Network comes The Social Billionaire, which isn't a book you read. It is a practical workbook to help you get the most out of your network. A network audit, three pillars, and a running line through all of it: give the right network the right job to do. Build it before you need it. She'll tell you why you needed to do it yesterday. Enjoy! Welcome everybody to our latest episode of Invest Her Podcast, and boy oh boy, am I super super happy to have you back with us. Kelly Hoey is in the house. How are you, Kelly?

Oh, I'm really thrilled to be back, Anne. Thank you for having me.

Wow. Well, I mean, the last time we spoke, and we'll link the link to that episode in, in the show notes, that was during the pandemic, and you were teaching and sharing with us how to network during the pandemic. So thankfully, we have fast-forwarded all that stuff. So before we get into the nitty-gritty, can you maybe share one fun fact about you, Kelly, that people may or may not know? Let's get started.

Oh, I'm trying to think. Did we have this question before? What did I share before as a fun fact? Uh, fun fact, I had my name changed when I was a Okay. My first, my first, my first 2 names.

So I think we did share that before, so it's good. So it's good to—

Well, that still is— it's still a fun fact because, yeah. Anyway, I am no longer Katherine Jane.

Yay!

Julia Kelly. There we go. There's my— there's my fun— it's still a fun fact because people are always like, oh my God, how old were you? And I was like, I don't know, 3? And I was just a little snooty about it when people would call me by my, you know, my old name. I'm like, that's not my name anymore. It's Well, I love it.

It's about, you know, embracing your identity of who you really are, and that's who you really are. So we love you, Kelly. Julia Kelly is in the house. So we're here to speak to you today as an author. This is your second book that you have just brought out called The Social Billionaire. So what made you write a second book? Like, remind for those listeners and viewers who may not remember the first one, just give us a snippet of what the first one is about and what led you to write the second one.

So yeah, the first book, Build Your Dream Network, was sort of debunking, you know, myths and, and trying to get sort of best practice habits on how you build a network around whatever your professional ambitions are. And that book was written for everybody. And it was in the course of promoting that book, and I think it was in 2019, I was asked to comment on some research that showed To excel, women needed to build different networks. And then— and I found this really interesting. As opposed to, like, oh my God, doom and gloom, I was like, this is great. Here's some clarity on what women need to do to really excel in terms of a structure of their network. And then 2020 happened.

Mm-hmm.

And I sort of took this one piece of research and fell down the rabbit hole because, I mean, what else are you going to do during Mm-hmm. You know, cook beans and, I don't know, do some research.

Bake bread.

Bake bread, figure out sourdough. I went down the research rabbit hole instead of doing those things and worked with a mastermind group, like created one to go through the material. And the one thing they wanted was, you know, like a workbook to go with the mastermind. And by the time I started to do the workbook, I was like, this is a book. So I just kept going.

Awesome. Okay, so tell us a little bit more about The Social Billionaire. Um, what's the core idea about why must women build their networks differently? What's different about building a network for women?

Yeah, so let's, let's really keep it in— I want to say the noun, the network, as opposed to the verb. Because as soon as you say women need to network differently than men, it's like, yeah, women go to the spa and men go to the golf course. It's like, that's not what we're talking about. Talking about the actual structure of the network, which fits into some of the insights in Build Your Dream Network, that men typically develop a broad, narrow network. So not a lot of depth in knowing people, but a network that expands across industries and sectors and geographies and all sorts of things. Women typically build a narrow, deep network. So think one where there is a depth of knowledge about someone, or those people in the network have extreme expertise in a particular area. And our natural tendencies— one network is built through activity, that's the male network. One network is typically built through time, conversation. And these things sort of, as a stereotype, play upon our gender preferences.

Hmm.

What's interesting in the research of high-achieving women is that they ensure they have built both of these networks well, and they leverage them well.

Hmm.

And they know when they need to call on one versus when they need to tip into the other, where one needs to expand, when the other needs to be refined based on a goal or, you know, an outcome that they are seeking. So that's like the one big factor that is different about these. And I'm using the term the social scientist. Used in all the research, which is high achieving or high potential. Nothing in the research says that these high achieving or high potential women are smarter or more qualified. So when even in studies, longitudinal studies across corporations, they showed that you know here you had a pool of equally motivated, equally qualified individuals. Take into the factors of, you know, sexism or racism or, you know, any other factors that might be holding certain people back. Why were these women excelling? And this network piece was a real critical one.

Mm-hmm.

Some of the other things that came into play was, as I call it, focus— your goals, your opportunities, your values. Are you clear and specific on what your goal is?

Right?

Are you picking the right opportunities for that goal? Are your goals and your— and the opportunities, like, is it in line with your values? Because that hits into the second factor, which is grit. So that's your mindset. Like, does this goal really matter to you that you're willing to drop everything else? You're smiling, Anne, because I bet you've seen a lot of founders who are like, I really want to do this, but I don't want to work so hard.

Yeah.

Or I'm only going to do this if I get funded. That tells me you're not committed as an entrepreneur to the goal. But under grit, you've got mindset, time allocation, right? Are you prioritizing this above everything else? And self-care. That was a really huge thing for these high-achieving women, self-care. And then under the networks, we have, you know, these— the narrow network, the broader network. And your— I'm going to say your social-emotional network. So I always like to say there's different networks for different things. So you've got to give the right network the right job to do.

Hmm.

I know you've got more questions, but I'm going to say one more thing on what sort of makes all of this difference. These high-achieving, high-potential women not only prioritize networking, but not in the schmoozy way, right? Maybe they're mentoring. Maybe they're taking, you know, they're talking to people as they go up the elevator work. They're, they know who's, what's going on in a coworking space. So this is not like, let's get our calendars filled, networking, schmoozy, busy stuff, right? So they, they, they're not just networking when they need it. They're consistently building relationships. The second thing, which is critical and underlying all of this, is these high potential women Prioritize networking with other women, and that was a key factor across all the research. Whether it was in corporate America, whether it was women entrepreneurs in Bangladesh, middle managers in Australia, like like you name the research entrepreneur networks. Like I I did not stop because in terms of the research in 2020 because. as great as some of the research was, if you looked on it at a narrow basis, you could say, well, this doesn't apply to me. I'm an entrepreneur in Spain. I'm an entrepreneur in North Africa. Um, you know, I'm a small business owner, you know, in Germany. Why would this apply to me? You're citing research that's, you know, looking at women in an elite institution, you know, in the United States.

Mm-hmm.

Like, how is that valid to me? So I was like, This is so good, but I need to see where the pattern repeats itself. So anyway, I'll leave it at that for a second.

No, and I think it's fascinating. I want to kind of pull on that thread because what I'm taking from what you've just shared with us is that, you know, on the one hand, you have to build your network, and the other one, you have to leverage it, and you have to be strategic with it. And it's something that you need to nurture on a daily basis. It's not something that you do, oh, I'll do a little bit of networking this hour or this day, or I'll go So what I'm hearing very clearly, the strategic intent. And then it's interesting that what came out, what revealed itself from your research is that, yeah, women are seeking out— so high-achieving women are seeking out other high-achieving women. Is that systemic? Is that— what's your take on this, Kelly? Is this systemic?

Well, some of it might not be high-achieving. It might be—

Yeah, yeah, OK.

It might be in the sense like, It wasn't like C-suite women were only looking at C-suite women. So they're like across the board prioritizing networking with other women. And so that may be, you know, when you— if you were, let's say you're an entrepreneur who's just starting out, you're networking with other entrepreneurs who are just starting out.

Hmm.

Right? Sort of the rising tide lifts all boats. You know, it's back to that. Yeah, it was, it was really— that piece of it was really interesting in the research, Anne, because I don't think it was what researchers were looking to.

Mm-hmm.

And there was a longitudinal study that looked at— it was like 15 corporations over an extended— like, we're talking 15-, 20-year timeline. And the corporations, you know, you're looking at, you know, northward of 15,000 to 20,000 employees. And they were— and you would think about it like, OK, the same kind of credentials to get in. And why were these women excelling up the corporate ladder and these equally qualified women were not? And one of the things it came down to was these other women who weren't achieving as much. It wasn't ambition. It wasn't sexism or racism or anything else because these other women were facing it.

Mm-hmm.

They were networking in exactly the same way as the men.

Hmm.

So they were showing up for like the party and the, you know, whatever. Oh God, you know, I should go to that event because I might need some new business. They were networking in that way. They were not involved in the employee resource groups. They were not doing all of the mentoring. They weren't doing all these other things which the women who were reaching much higher levels of achievement were doing. So yeah, it was a really, for me, intriguing piece. And the only thing I can say is when, when the world that you're operating in, maybe your sector of your, you know, the field that your startup or your venture, your scaling company is in, doesn't look like you, you may be getting great advice. Nothing in my book excludes the men. I'll just say that. But you might be getting great advice from men, but what you really need is advice from other women.

Who've walked the path ahead of you. Yeah.

They can go, they can say, yeah, that's great advice that he gave you, but that advice is not gonna fly.

Yeah.

Here's what you should think about.

Yeah. Yeah. So tell me a little bit more about Social Billionaire. What does it mean, A, to be a social billionaire? Of course, the, when you say billionaire, we love it. When you put social beside it, okay, we can have fun becoming a billionaire. Not sure that's I think that's exactly what you mean, but what do you mean by social billionaire?

I think the greatest asset you have is relationships and seeing your social capital as an investment, not as, oh my God, this drudgery of this task. Oh God, I got to fundraise. Oh, I got to go get sales. Oh, I need to find, you know, like, no, this is an investment. And the people right now who have invested in relationships, like, those are the people I think are the wealthiest people because that's where you can weather the storms.

And that's where you— Yeah. And it's— and I'm just thinking back as you were saying that, I'm thinking back to a dear friend of mine who she had an opportunity very early in her career to be part of a global, global event, a mind-boggling global event that was huge impact in the '80s. And she had, in order to organize and co-organize this event, she had to have access to the top names in the game in this industry. And I remember her telling me the story, yeah, well, I had to work with this person. I was like, wow, this was a very famous person. She says, oh yeah, I met— and she started telling me all these names. And she says, um, what's important is whenever you need to get something important done, you gotta go to the top. You got to go to the people who've got the connections at that level that Stop wasting your time in the little— in the lower levels. If you want to talk to Bill Gates, figure out who knows him and go straight for the top because you're wasting time. I just— I was fascinated. And when I met her, she gave me that advice 20 years ago. And I was like, wow. So like, now I think you've got us hooked and gripped. So the social billionaire—

But on that advice, you know, like, this is where I challenge it, is that you want to get to, uh, You want to get to Melinda Gates, right? Well, you could probably pitch something into her inbox and it's just going to sit there as opposed to going, all right, like the 6 degrees of separation. How can I get there? This is where building relationships with your peers, right?

Mm-hmm.

Because, okay, I'm gonna use an American football example. Like sometimes you throw a Hail Mary and you get a touchdown. But more likely, right, like you do a little run yourself as the quarterback, right? You're not on the field by yourself. You're with a team, right? So you you know you you run by yourself for a little bit because you can't see anyone to throw it to, and that running for yourself might be doing some research and figuring out right who might know them, and then it might be a pass off to somebody else who can take it a little bit further and a little bit further, and then you you know you get to Melinda Gates. But it's it's. building relationships with your peers, because the most important person in your network— because this might be where people go wrong— might be the admin assistant.

Yes.

It might be the analyst.

Yeah.

At a VC firm. And we can get hung up in networking with going for the, you know, Melinda Gates, where going up the ladder, right, moving this way, jostling that way, to finally get some attention because now Melinda Gates is going to say, oh, this person has been referred by this person, referred by this person, referred this one. That has built a foundation of trust that no email can, like, come close to if you were trying to send a cold email. So—

So for those who haven't yet had the opportunity to read your book, tell us a little bit more about how how you've structured it. And it is really a workbook. And I love the way you've done it as a workbook. First of all, why did you decide to do the second book as a workbook? Show it. Thank you. Because I did buy a copy and I gifted it to my daughter who was networking and, you know, going and making her first steps in her career, in her professional career. And I said, you need Kelly's book. So she's got the copy that I bought. So tell us a bit more about why you did it in that format. And then how did you organize your advice so that it's practical for any woman at any stage in her career to dip into and get cracking, start working on leveraging and building her social capital?

Well, once I sort of figured out these 3 pillars, the focus, grit, and networks, after doing all that research, you know, for probably 12 to 18 months, I had started writing it as sort of a traditional book. And I'll be honest, Anne, it was boring me writing it. So I can't imagine anyone wanting to read it. I bet you had to grind. And then I sat back and I said, what was my intention of writing this book? And it was to get research, because this research on what high-achieving women do differently, this is not, oh my God, this came out in research in 2019. There's a whole bunch of research out there. And it's all locked away. you know, in academic journals. It's brilliant. But I'm like, this is great insight. How do we put it into practice?

Yeah.

And so I ripped the book apart and said, all right, how do we do this? So this is learning by doing. How has this become a masterclass or a mastermind that you can do at your own pace? How could it be that I've had this with people who I've said, you know what, you really need to do the focus chapter because that's where I think you're stumbling. Oh, no, your problem is like, you know, grit, your time allocation. You're like, are you really committed to this goal? Right? Like, like, so some people, you know, may speed through the chapter on focus or the chapter on grit and then really get down to the networking piece. Right? Or other people might be like, aha, I am committed to this goal.

Mm-hmm.

Now I know how to deploy my network. So really, it was done, you know, in all honesty, because I was like, I don't want to write this book as a, you know, a sort of reciting with a few, like, here's 3 takeaways kind of thing. And it ended up a chapter book. But all right, here's worksheets, here's examples. Let's design this for adult learners.

Hmm.

Let's design this in a way that people can take the pieces of it they need and You know, forego the rest, and this is something that they, you know, come back to.

Yeah, so I love it. Very practical and pragmatic. Very much you, Kelly. And I love that there's no BS with you. It's like really straight boom. And I do love that about you. I really do. Um, so I wonder now, based on your research and your experience teaching this to women and Just working through it with women. What's a networking myth that you really want to bust? Is there like, this myth really is not true? What is it when it comes to networking and women?

Well, I was sort of hinting at it before that we need to act like the men. And that, that, you know, relying on other women is, you know, a weakness, as opposed to the research shows it's a strength. You know, the book does not, as I said, it does not exclude men, but prioritizing women and specifically seeking their guidance over some of the challenges, roadblocks, right, the headwinds that you're facing, is essential.

Hmm.

And, um, this is about like, what's your structure? There was, um, a very accomplished woman who did not get a CEO, CEO role that she was hoping for. And based on the spreadsheet, Like, if you just looked at it in that pragmatic outcomes, number of deals, you know, deals brought in, revenue for the firm, she was hands down far better than the 2 male candidates she was up against. She didn't get the job. And she called me and we were talking about it. And I had one question. Where are the women in your network? Because she was getting a lot of advice from a lot of well-meaning accomplished men on how to become the CEO. But she needed advice of the women.

Yeah.

Who would have said, yeah, that's great that they're telling you to do X. The reality is you need to spend more time doing Y. You're running around taking these deals and doing things that are taking you all internationally and projects that are overseas. You need to be in HQ because no one knows you.

Yeah.

Like, there was a whole lot, and then I was like, I can only come up with one reason that she's not in that role. So that's the myth in terms of, you know, somehow, you know, maybe I listen to too many Victorian, you know, history podcasts. You know, the gentler sex. That's it. Somehow it's a weaker sex. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Somehow it's a weakness to be— but prioritizing other women and learning from their experiences and taking their advice as well as the advice you're getting from strong male allies and saying, right, now I know what the path is.

So given what you've just shared with us, I want to kind of dig dive— dig deeper into our— for our audience, who a lot of people are in our audience are women founders who are fundraising, as well as the investors who— and ecosystem partners who are supporting them. So how does social capital translate into getting funded? That warm intro, the room that you get into, how do you, how do you make that transition?

You need to build it before you need it. And that's the problem with founders.

Yeah.

They think, well, my product's not ready. I don't wanna talk to them until I'm ready for funding. I'm not gonna, you know, you need to bring people on your journey. You need to have that network. That's on your journey, and you're thinking that the fact that you don't know exactly what your market is, or you haven't figured out you know your revenue stream yet, or you know whatever it may be, you're thinking, "Oh my God! I've got to wait until this is perfect till I go and talk to people," rather than saying, "I need to talk to people as I go along, not only to get their advice and guidance." you are evidencing to them what kind of person you are. Because at the end of the day, that's what we're investing in.

Yeah.

Right? And it might be, you know, there are investors who don't want to miss out on something who come scurrying in when you're, you know, doing your Series C or your Series D or, you know, maybe even your, you know, your Series A. But whatever, they may come scurrying on because they don't want to be left out. But they've likely heard about the deal from another investor. But to get those lead investors, to get those relationships, to also weed out the investors. Because as you know, I— you and I have talked about, why do you want to make money for someone who doesn't align with your values?

Yeah.

Why do you want to make money for someone who doesn't believe in you as the founder and your vision? Like, why are you chasing them down? Because they'd be good for you. Um, you know, you need to road test them as much as anyone else. So for founders who think— are thinking about some point whether You know you need, I want to say, investors in the form of procuring your product or service, or investors in the form of money. You need to start building that relationships. Another critical piece on this is too many founders sit in isolation, and you might be a solo founder. Nothing wrong with that, but you have to be part of communities with other. Founders. Because again, that's part of that network. In this case, thinking of, you know, Global Investor, that's your network of women who are going to give you insights. They may tell you you're chasing the wrong investor. They may tell you, oh, when they secure— you secure the first meeting, here's some tips based on what the rest of us have learned on how to conduct that meeting so it goes more smoothly. So for invest— for founders who are like, what do they— where should they start and what they should do, you, you needed to start yesterday versus, you know, when you've got your pitch deck ready.

Yeah. And so you need to start yesterday and don't wait to be perfect. And I think that's something that a lot of women do suffer from, the perfectionism through whatever their own backstory and/or societal norms and, and formatting. So it's like, get rid of the, get rid of the perfectionism as well. And okay, so now let's talk about practically. I want you to help us get into the nitty-gritty about how do you leverage your network. So say you have been having those warm conversations for many years, you actually do have a broad and deep network, and you have a goal. Like you said at the very beginning, that's crucial to have your goal, your strategy, and what you're going towards. How do you leverage that network if it's something that you're not used to doing? So, and I'm going to give the example that a lot of women are used to leveraging the network for others rather for themselves. So what would you say to those women who are sitting on the edge of their seats and watching this video going, Kelly, tell me how, how do I leverage— that's such a big term, but how do I leverage the network I've built over a long time?

Right, right, right. Well, I mean, one of the things I have in The Social Billionaire, it's chapter 2, is a network audit. So, because sometimes people think they don't have a network, right? So, let's say you've done the network audit in chapter 2 of The Social Billionaire. You know where everything is. You understand, yes, I've got enough of these. I've got these. I don't have a gap in my network. I've got— all right, what do I start doing?

Hmm.

This is where I'm like, you know, pick 3 specific goals. You know, like you might say, well, I got 15. No, right now you have 3. Okay? If say one of your goals is I need to get funded. Okay, that's a big broad ass goal. Like that's too that's too broad. That's what like all right. I want you to chunk that down. I need to understand deal terms going on in New York City right now. I may want to fundraise in San Francisco. What's happening with San Francisco VCs? I'm thinking early stage. How many early-stage venture capital firms are there? Right? Like, you start— so you can start getting really specific answers. Because I want to get funded, I need to meet VCs is a very unhelpful ask to any network.

Yes.

Because they're going to come back with you with questions. You need to flip that. I need to know. So you write down all your questions and you think to yourself, Can I get this online? Right? Will PitchBook tell me this information? If it does, how could I verify it with someone in my network? So say it was on, um, what's the state of early-stage venture firms in the United States, right? And you go to online, you go to PitchBook, they give you some insights on what's the state of early-stage funds and what the check writing they're doing. And you're like, okay, good. There was a couple women I met you know, you think to yourself, you know, at an event or a conference a few months ago who were early-stage VCs, that's a good question to post to them. I just, I was, you know, hey, it was great to meet you. And by the way, you know, I'm thinking about, you know, fundraising at the early stage. This is what I've seen and understand is the state of early-stage venture firms right now.

Hmm.

Has this your, you know, what's your experience on this? Like, what are your thoughts? And you could also email a founder that you met who raised maybe early stage, and then they would say, oh yeah, this is what's going on. There used to be a whole bunch of early stage funds. That segment has shrunk. This is what you need to do. And then you're like, great, I can start parsing together a smarter strategy rather than, oh, someone will sell me a mailing list and I'll just send a pitch deck and fire it off everywhere.

So get hyper-specific.

Right. And you get hyper-specific. So you think, what's the question or the need or the outcome I'm seeking? Who's the best person or network to ask?

Mm-hmm.

Right? It might be, oh, let me pop a question into, you know, the global investor community. Someone in there will have the answer. Right? It might be just sending a WhatsApp. It could be that easy. So, but, but it's like, what's the question? What's the network? What's the right way to connect with them? Yes, because a very specific email— everything does not need to be a coffee date or a Zoom. Yes, you are seeking an answer. You don't have to have sort of the falsitude of, you know, some platitudes and some—

yeah, yeah, yeah, which, which a lot of women fall, fall prey to. They get into The relationship building. Yeah, there's like, there's the cursor. It's like some women go into, I need to fall over backwards, I have to spend a lot of my time building up the relationship without getting to the point of what I need.

Wait, wait, well, this is exactly it, because our natural tendency, our preference as women, is to build relationship through conversation.

Yes.

And we need to get better at jumping to the point. Yeah, but jumping to the point involves Doing your background to understand why this is the right person to ask the question of. So I'll use myself as an example. Hasn't happened in a few years, but it did happen with enough time in between roles. So you, my friend, know that I have had a variety of roles: lawyer, law firm management, you know, first president of a global business network for women, you know, startup accelerator co-founder. CMO of an emerging tech company. Like, I've done a whole lot of different things. I used to get inquiries about working in a law firm as a lawyer, and it was usually 10 years or more since I'd been in that. If someone had looked and paid attention, they would have thought, yeah, Kelly did this, and she's not the right person to ask this question.

Yeah.

Or you need to preface with, it's really been too long, but I thought I'd ask you anyway. That would have been fine. Like, is this the right person? Is this the right person? It could come down to, um, they're on summer vacation and I need an answer right now. They're not the right person.

Yeah.

But if you take into all these things in terms of someone's expertise Someone's— the things they care about, you know, where and what might be going on in their life, you are showing more care for their relationship than if you endlessly ask them for like coffee dates or to jump on Zoom just to chat.

Yeah, I love it. Real quick, Anne here. InvestHer Summit 2026 is coming to Paris in October. Connecting global scaling women entrepreneurs with investors, corporates, and others to scale faster. Save 20% with early bird tickets at investhersummit.com. That's investhersummit.com. I love it. And, and I think I know that certainly, and you've got a fantastic newsletter full packed, packed with great tips, practical tips, and examples of what not to do. I love those ones.

Like, okay.

I got this email and I'm just taking out the name, but the rest is all the same. This is what you should not do. So can you maybe share one of those examples that you have in the book just to give— to help, to help, um, yeah, to help women kind of not make some of those basics and to realize, yeah, you've got— like, I'm hearing loud and clear, you got to prepare, you got to do the work, you've got to be hyper-focused, clear in your ask, not just clear but concise, respectful of the other person's time, and all of that in at the same time. And without just sticking it into ChatGPT, God forbid, and getting some lame email that then anybody could have written, and it shows that you've put zero care. And I hate those stuff coming through. LinkedIn every day, emails every day, drives me bananas. So give us an example of one of those ones that you got.

Or people using, like, you know, someone will sell you a mailing list of investors and then you use the same template to send to all of them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, and since you brought up AI, I mean, this is where AI could be very helpful in the sense that you can Use AI to expedite your research.

Yes.

And create a dossier on each of the firms that you're interested in to understand more on what they've invested at, what the stage of their fund is, you know, who their employees are, what are their employees up to. Because, you know, if you were sitting on the fence between going to a meetup and not going to a meetup, and you knew that one of these VCs you wanted to meet was going to be there, well, you'd change your mind and you'd get to that meetup. Right? So you can create these dossiers, and you can expedite like kind of like you've hired yourself an intern or an analyst by doing this. You create these dossiers, you create them up to date because once you've connected with someone, it might give you more touch points to have more networking touch points. Oh, see, you just made this funding round, or see, you just got this promotion, or see, you just raised your third fund, or whatever it may be.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But then you can write. You know, with that information, you do the thing that AI or social media— because we've gotten really sloppy because of social media— we can— we can— you do the thing that those— those— that technology can't do for you, which is to apply your empathy and your critical thinking skills.

Yeah.

To write a very human connection.

Yes.

Saw your newsletter. You gave these tips. You know, this kind of thing. Saw you got, you know, whatever it may be. Yes, maybe Claude, ChatGPT, whichever, you know, Gemini, whoever you're using might give you, you know, a suggested, right? Just like an intern, they give you a suggested text, and then you've got to sit there and make it human. Yes, you need to sit there and make it hyper-specific for that person. You're going to send it to, so they don't look at it and go, "What is this? Who is this? I am blocking them. Is this even real? Can we check with security? And and you know maybe we need to change our spam filters." Like you don't need that.

Yeah.

So that's where I'm like, you know, in terms of this day and age, you know, we're thinking about AI, thinking about the slop, thinking about the crap. You know, there's a great quote of Einstein's when he he was asked. if he had an hour to solve a problem, what would he do? And he said he'd spend 55 minutes thinking about it, 5 minutes solving it. You need to approach your outreach with specific people.

Yeah.

You need to approach it that way.

Yeah. And I, and I, I'm fully on board with you when it comes to adopting AI as an assistant, as a tool to to expedite your research. And you still need to have your human gaze on it, your own, use your own experience in order to analyze what it's giving you too. Because sometimes, I mean, not sometimes, it does make mistakes. Okay, it definitely does make mistakes. So what it's also really great, as I said, it speeds up. So when you're prepping any meeting or prepping any email, it can prepare that draft and you can And then you can say, and remember what I did and look at my emails that I sent so you can see the last version, so you can see how my voice is. And, and you're training the AI to get better and better, but you're never totally delegating 100%.

Right.

Because at the end of the day, that's where the beauty of what you're sharing with us and why it's such a critical skill now more than ever is that we will never replace the human connection. We cannot replace the human connection. how we make another person feel.

Right.

And it was so interesting. I had a guest on the podcast last week, and his episode just came out this week, actually today. And I remember when we were about to record, he says, Anne, I'm on vacation. I wouldn't have done this for anybody else but you 'cause I'm on my vacation. And because I like you and we've had a good rapport, I am granting you an hour of my time to share about why I'm passionate about funding women. And he was deadly serious. Because I know I've met him in other contexts and so on. And that is exactly what you said. It's building up that relationship over several touchpoints in person and online. Like, if, if I went back to look at all our touchpoints over several years, we've maybe had 20, 30 touchpoints or more.

Right.

It's never just even— we forget we, we might have met a person at a certain place, but there are many more touchpoints, and each of those things that we're doing in our email, in our LinkedIn posts, in our WhatsApp, in making the intros to each other. Each of those things count.

Well, absolutely. It all, it all builds up. It all shows who you are as a person. And it also plays into this, that, you know, this example that you've given, that this gentleman has said, you know, I'm going to give up my vacation time Someone could say, "Oh my God, Anne! Could you make a you know? Could you put me in touch with him? I you know. I just saw that you had this episode with him, and I really want to talk to him." And you're like, "I've spent a lot of time getting to know this person. Show me a little bit more. I listened to the podcast episode. I saw this. I saw this. I saw this about him. I did all of this stuff. You know, is there any chance that you know you could make an intro because I'd like to talk to him about." X, Y, or Z.

Yes.

That seems to be in his wheelhouse. And then you, Anne, you take that email and you flip it over to this guy and you say, hey, I just received this. Any interest? And if there's interest there and this person is showing that they really understand this person, as opposed to, oh, oh, oh, that there's got— there's somebody who's going to invest in female founders, and that excitement, and they're just willing to get, you know, any deck slopped off to anybody.

Yeah.

Makes a massive difference. But, you know, calling out your past episodes, I mean, if people haven't listened to your episode with Mara Bolas on AI, then you can hit pause on this podcast right now, go and listen to that. I will not be offended. Mara is amazing. I have facilitated workshops that she's led. And then you can come back to this one and Anne and I will still be here and you can listen to the rest of this podcast.

I totally agree. And the funny thing is, Kelly, you won't believe, but I was speaking with Mara just before this episode recording. Literally. So your ears must have been ringing because I did mention you in our conversation. It's so fun. So yeah. And okay, so now I want us to dive a little bit more into networking in AI. So we've talked about how to use it to effectively research, to prepare for your connections, and to share information, to ask permission to make those introductions. Great. How has networking changed, would you say, in this new era? Of AI, apart from those things like being findable, like in being findable and having your personal brand. Tell us what you think about that.

Well, I mean, I think this is where more and more that your need to be genuinely like yourself and authentically yourself, you know, across all platforms.

Yeah.

The person I meet in person should not be any different than the person I engage with.

Yes.

On LinkedIn or whatever. And if you start thinking, oh great, this is AI, I can, you know, write my LinkedIn post with AI, I can default to it doing these things because that's inconvenient, that is just going to diminish your brand even more. You know, it's, it's almost like it's going to compound the crime that, oh, I can connect with anyone, so I'll just send a, hey, do you want to connect on LinkedIn request to anybody who I see? So that sloppiness is just if you use AI as, you know, a convenience, like, now I don't have to think about it, you know, networking until I need to, it's just going to compound the problem.

Hmm.

Whereas if you're like, I am going to be authentically me, I am going to make sure, you know, here's what my voice is, here's how I'm showing up, here's how I'm making sure I'm engaging with other people's content, right? Here's, here's, here's how, like, you know, my website's in alignment with my Online profiles. Here's how I'm, you know, making sure— I think more than anything, making sure that you are up to speed on search in an AI era. And there's people that were smarter than me on that. But where are you going to ensure that if someone Googles your name, they find what you want them to find?

Yes.

Because that may be the first, you know, impression they have of you. And how is that How is SEO being affected in the AI era? I think that's important for people to unpack for themselves.

Mm-hmm.

But, um, I think it's more imperative than ever that you really, like, what ensures that people know, whether it's in a DM or extending your hand, you know, across, you know, a, a, a room in a, you know, in a in real life networking space, that someone knows it is genuinely you.

Yeah, I think that's absolutely critical. We can never lose sight of that. I was speaking to a woman leader, a senior leader in a company today, and, you know, talking about her doing some personal branding, and I said, look, you've got it all. I see you as a diamond in the rough. It's just about polishing certain aspects. that we need to adjust in order for you to have the impact that you want as a leader and be more visible and be more— be seen more as a, as a thought leader. And, and I think— and I said the same thing to her. I said, this is not about changing you into somebody else. It's being the most authentic version of yourself, which takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of self-development and work to do what you've just said, to show up 100% authentically who you are in every instance, because we have been trained our whole lives to wear certain masks in certain roles, and we need to be a certain way. And certainly women and diverse women even more so have had to—

Yep.

Adapt, wear a persona in order to be seen and heard. And even, even at that, not to the same level of their male counterparts who just have this highway of privilege that they don't even realize, right?

Right.

So, so that's where the authentic piece is super important. And I know that in our conversations, Kelly, you've, you've mentioned to me like the importance of having evergreen content and, and building that for both YouTube and Pinterest. So why, why Why are YouTube and Pinterest important when it comes to networking and building your personal brand and getting out there, in your opinion?

They're search engines.

Yeah.

You know, people are like, oh, it's a video channel. Oh, it's a— no, they're search engines. And so people are searching for information. So, you know, if you were like, oh my God, how do I do more of this? How can I be found? Like, you know, that sort of networking first impression or affirming an impression that was already made or Someone recommends you, and so somebody else goes to find information on you, um, besides your own website, besides LinkedIn, right? You got YouTube and Pinterest, and both of those you should be treating in the way of search engine optimization.

Mm-hmm.

So if you have a podcast, like, posting it on YouTube as well. Um, you know, on Pinterest, you know, if you do have blog posts or things that you're like, Yeah, this is evergreen kind of content, right? Um, putting it on Pinterest because again, it's a search engine. How can I find— I need, you know, looking for skincare products for mature skin, like whatever it may be. You don't have to pin other people's stuff. You don't have to, you don't have to be there to think, oh my God, I'm gonna have to create more connections. No, just create your boards. Think search engine. Think long-term generating of eyeballs. Mm-hmm.

Okay, so I want to kind of flip the conversation a little bit. And I know I've asked you to look, you know, share your expertise on building and leveraging your network in the fundraising context. I wanted to flip that now into, I'm a woman founder, I'm looking for new clients, I'm looking for new customers. What would you say to her on how she needs to develop and leverage her network, which is slightly different to When you're in fundraising mode, or is it? Well, not really.

The foundation, the groundwork is kind of the same. There is in The Social Billionaire— I'm doing this with the books right here.

Yeah, show it, show us, show it.

Show the book again. There is— I took, you know, the, the, the, that startup canvas, you know, that model of, and I've done it for, for networks to sort of figure out Well, where should I be? And part of that is understanding your customer.

Yeah.

Where is he or she or they? Where where are they? Right. And what are the networking rooms you need to be in? Or what are the networking rooms you need to create to have the right customers in the right room? I used to always laugh as a lawyer. You know, the lawyers who would say to me they were networking, they were always off. But you know the bar associations thinking they're going to get new clients. And I'm like, unless your business is entirely on referrals, or maybe you have a you know Supreme Court like a litigation appellate litigation practice, and you have to get your work from other lawyers. What are you doing in there? Okay, maybe conflicts they can send you some work. I mean that does happen as well. But is that where you're going to get your clients? Like where's the industry association? Where's the you know? I know one lawyer, you got her best client at a Mommy and Me, sitting and talking to other people. So the first thing is like, who is your client?

Yeah.

It goes back to, as I said before, goal and who do you need to contact and how do you reach them? Here's who my ideal client is. What's going on in their day? What are they doing? I used to sit on the board of a not-for-profit here in New York City. And their annual gala was like— it was the place to be seen if you were in the turnaround and restructuring, bankruptcy, insolvency, Chapter 11, Chapter 7. Like, that— if you wanted to meet everyone, you could find them all on that one night there. There was another— and that was it. The charity was, you know, for women and children in domestic crisis. It wasn't like, I don't know, bankrupt business, you know, handouts. Like, but they somehow, through a course of something, all of those people like migrated to this charity. There was another, you know, charity in New York, and I can't even remember what the cause was, but it was like everyone in the fashion industry. But the cause was not a fashion industry. It was, you know, Mm-hmm. It was like, you know, it might have been the food bank. You know, it might have been something like that, but it just happened through history that they were all in that room. So this is where you're like, okay, I can tap my existing network to say, here's who I want to— you know, here's who my ideal customer is. Any suggestions on where I can network to find them? This came into play, like the power of being able to say this to your network or in rooms of people to say who you need to meet. And it was at a small business event when I did a book event for Build Your Dream Network. And it was up in Connecticut hosted by a local library. And there's all these small business owners. And this gentleman got up to ask that question. I'm needing to find new customers. What do I do? So I answered with a question. Who's your ideal customer?

Mm-hmm.

I can't give you just generic advice. Who's your ideal customer? And he starts to describe because he's a contractor. It's a woman. It's this. This is what they're doing on their house. This is what they're disposable. Like they're looking at the project size. Da da da da da. Like he is hyper specific. I didn't say a word, and another attendee, a woman business owner, got up and yelled at him. She's like, "I know exactly who your customer is. I know where you can find them." Like no, you know she's like, "This is where they all hang out." This is what they belong to. This is actually how you could network with them because they could use your services on an upcoming project. Come and talk to me afterwards. I'll make the intros.

Boom.

Done. Didn't involve a coffee date, didn't involve schmoozing, didn't involve anything. It was like telling people what you need. And they may say— but that's the first part. So if you're looking for new customers, like, who's the ideal customer? Who are they and what are they doing? Because you need to, you need to meet them where they are.

Great advice. Great advice. Okay. And so any more dos and don'ts for showing up online on LinkedIn and on Insta, whatever? Any kind of key dos and key don'ts based on all of your experience?

Well, I particularly think with LinkedIn, um, thinking too as a founder or an investor who's wanting to meet other founders and investors and be taken seriously.

Hmm.

If you wouldn't outsource yourself, like sending somebody else in your stead to a business meeting, high-profile cocktail party. Oh, sorry, Anne couldn't make it. You know, I'm, you know, the intern. I'm here in her place. You know, she really wants to pitch business. Can I get a meeting? Like, if you wouldn't send someone else in your stead, Yeah. Don't, don't do that online, particularly LinkedIn. I love that.

That's such good advice. It's true. There are a lot of people who delegate writing these thought leadership posts to AI or an assistant or an intern or a PR agency for that matter. It doesn't matter, but they delegate it out and they're like, I am this up here and, and I won't lower myself to have to do it myself. I need— I'm going to delegate that out because, you know, so you're saying clearly no, You need to be the one doing it.

You need to log into your LinkedIn account and see what's going on and make comments and be that person. If you wouldn't send someone else to, you know, that big fancy dinner that you've been invited to, then don't do it on LinkedIn. Yeah, you know, fine, do it on Pinterest. Fine, do it with someone posting, you know, your videos and stuff on— who knows SEO and stuff— doing it on YouTube. But if you wouldn't send someone else in your stead, do not do that online.

I like that. That's a very good tip. Okay, so you've reinvented yourself many times over, Kelly, in your career, and actually one of the red threads has been how you've used your network to do that. Can you maybe give us a little flavor of some of that? And, and, and also as part of advice is what you share in the book as to how people who are maybe are going through transitions That's specifically the really key time for you to, to have done your network audit, to be very clear on your ask, extremely clear on the goal that you want. So kind of give us a little bit of your red thread on how you've— what you've learned yourself through your own experience has also infused this book. And that's why we know it's going to be helpful and it's going to work for the women who read it and use it, not just read it because it's a workbook. You gotta do the work.

You got to do the work. No one can do it for you. But it is one of those things, Anne, that, you know, all of us have had a variety of experiences. So it might be a variety of jobs. It might be in different sectors. It might be also our community service, you know, whether that's with, you know, a not-for-profit or our kids' school or whatever. So we've all, like, built these relationships. And maybe this gets back to where we started, which was, are you showing up consistently?

Yeah.

Are you making this a priority? Because you know volunteering equals networking because you're building relationships.

Yeah.

And if you have shown up for other people as opposed to just when you need things, you can call on people. There is very good research that that passage of time when you haven't been a complete jerk doesn't matter. People are happy to hear from you. Case in point, I got a text message yesterday. from a client from when I practiced law. And I stopped practicing law in 2002.

Mm-hmm.

And this person texted yesterday saying, oh, I think I have the day right, it's your birthday, blah blah blah, this is what I'm up to, wanted to hear what you're up to, I finally retired, and, um, I'm in this— gonna be in the city in the fall, let's grab a drink. 2002, Anne. And I worked with this person on deals Wow. Right? So it wasn't like I worked for 20 years with this person. It was over 4 years, probably 3 or 4 deals a year. Like, right? Like, so this is where you showing up consistently, then you're gonna have relationships to call on. That rush of good feelings is gonna come rushing back. And so when I think what has enabled me to be— make all sorts of different twists and turns, is people see what I do by showing up, whether that's the newsletter that comes out all the time that shows what I'm interested in, whether that's, you know, the causes that I, you know, choose to be part of, whether, you know, whatever it may be. And it is through those things. I mean, the reason I got the role as the first president of a global business network network for women was I was a member of the network and actively involved. So, the founder was like, who are you? What do you do? She offered me the job. As a result of that job, that consulting gig, that's how I then was tapped and asked if I would want to be the co-founder of a startup accelerator. And the 2 other co-founders from vastly different networks than mine. banking, Goldman Sachs, you know, there was some little bit of crossover. The other deep in, in mobile technology. They had this idea for a startup accelerator, and every time they talked to people about what they were looking for in the third co-founder, like they were talking about this— Your name kept coming up. Exactly. My name kept coming up, and they finally invited me to dinner, and they were like, every time we turn around, it's your name. It doesn't matter if we're talking to founders, Or bankers, or blah blah blah blah blah. Everyone's like, "You need to talk to Kelly Hoey," because of what people saw that I was doing. So that that really kind of—I mean, God, wouldn't we all like a washboard stomach that we could just put in ChatGPT? Just give me the washboard stomach. You know, whatever that would be.

Wouldn't that be great?

But you gotta do this boring stuff. But if you do it consistently, you got the washboard stomach, or you've got the network. That you can tap into because you have been there in a genuine, authentic, meaningful way at some other point in time, or, you know, whether it may— whenever that was for somebody else.

And I want to, as we come to an end on our conversation here, I want to come back to one of the points you made at the very beginning of this, which is, you know, you have your professional networks, but you also need your personal networks, those ride-and-die girlfriends that you can count on. And I know you're definitely one of them for me, for sure.

But we also know when we're having business conversations, right?

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, we know how to switch the hat. Yeah.

Right. And you know when, you know, you want to sit in your ma's kitchen and have her make her a cuppa, right? Because you're like, oh, you know, I'm feeling beaten up by work and all the rest of it, and I just need someone to look after me. But you don't need to pour out your business grievances to your mother because, you know, your mom's great, but she's not going to be able to help you on that. Some, some people's mothers may. I mean, I think, you know, I've had founders who have given me like, you know, the, the scream. Edward Munch's The Scream. Because they realize they're tapping people for the wrong thing. Give the right network the job to do. Yeah. If you need you know, your ego stroked and you know your Aunt Harriet's going to do that, by all means call her. If, you know, Uncle John has, you know, stayed at home his entire life and been a stay-at-home dad, why are you going to him and asking him about business advice? Like, why are you tapping him for something that is not in his wheelhouse?

Hmm.

So, right, like, give the right network the right job to do. And sort of— and then that, I think, more than anything, these lessons of these high-achieving women is like, I need a network that does this for me. I need them to bring these relationships and this expertise. I need to double down and pay attention to these people. I need to have a bigger profile in this network because it's the one where visibility is going to get me more customers or that board seat or whatever it may be. These other networks are there. I've invested the time. I can come back to them, but I need to spend time here because this is going to get me where I'm going to go. All of this advice is highly dependent on helping other people get where they're going. Yeah, because if you go there as a solo agent, no one is going to— why am I going to take money out of my social capital account for you if you're not giving me something for my social?

Exactly.

If you're not— if I'm handing over my social capital, you got to be looking after it it better than I look after it. Otherwise, I'm not opening the vault. And that's where people often think, oh, this sounds transactional, Kelly. If you are not being mutual, yes, this doesn't work. Doesn't work. You're networking like, you know, like men do, which they can. There's a different dynamic there.

Yeah, I love it. So where's the best people to— the best place to find you, Kelly, and to find your book and, and just to, to work with you, to connect with How do people do that?

Um, well, my LinkedIn profile is pretty robust. Um, you can go and subscribe over on Substack. It's free. Uh, so I've got a Substack, J. Kelly Oatley, over there. Uh, so, you know, subscribe to the Substack so that you're getting the tips and things. And there's a great archive there so that you're like, oh, why would I ask Kelly that question? She's already answered it 3 times over here, you know, like, why do I ask her about small talk? It's all over there, lots of posts on it. Uh, and then there's my website, which has links to everything, which is jkellyhoe.com.

Wonderful. And if you, if you have one parting message to our audience today, what would it be, Kelly? They like one, your parting wish or your key message to people when it comes to networking, to building their social capital and maintaining it?

Make it a priority. It's, it's, it's your, your relationships are your ride or die right now. Not, not, not your mastery of AI, not all that other stuff. Yeah, it's relationships.

I love it. Thank you so, so much, Kelly. Like, this was episode 2 with you. Hey, let's, let's— I'm putting out that open invitation to you for episode 3 at a future time.

Yes.

So that we can come back and visit and see what's the next, the next step of, of your wonderful journey on, on helping and supporting women entrepreneurs to— and not just women, and people to, to build their dream network, to leverage it, to become really good social billionaires, and remember that they're human, not forget their humanity. Make sure that you need to put into that box before you can take out, so it has to begin So thank you so much for being a guest with us again today. And, uh, yeah, have a great one. It's great to have you with us.

Thank you, Anne.