🎙️ EP66: Global Sisterhood — Carine de Meyere on Trade Missions | InvestHer Podcast

Hi there. Welcome or welcome back to InvestHer Podcast. I'm Anne Ravanona, your host and funding friend, and I'm so glad you're here. InvestHer Podcast exists for one reason: to share the real, unfiltered stories of funded women founders, investors, and ecosystem changemakers from around the world, and to give them the visibility and airtime they deserve. Because here's what we know: women are building extraordinary businesses. And yet their stories are still too often missing from the conversation. We're here to change that. Every episode, I sit down with someone who's in the trenches of building, funding, or backing women-founded ventures. And we talk about the real stuff, the pivots, the rejections, the fundraising lessons nobody tells you about, and the wins, because there are plenty of those too. Now, I can't wait for you to hear this. Let's dive in. What changes for a woman entrepreneur when she stops going to conferences and starts crossing borders? Today's guest has been answering that question 15 women at a time. Meet Karine de Meyer, angel investor and founder of Women of the World, started in 2011 to teach women entrepreneurs how to pitch and raise after a Harvard thesis on gender equality in boardrooms. Her all-women trade missions have landed in Silicon Valley, Tokyo and Riyadh, where hers was the first Dutch delegation of its kind. Next April, Hong Kong, Shenzhen, Guangzhou—you named it—China. You're about to hear what access to markets really looks like and why capital was never the whole story. Enjoy! So welcome everybody to this latest episode of InvestHer Podcast, and I'm thrilled beyond thrilled to have with me today the wonderful, charismatic. Empathic systems changer, Karine de Meijere. She's the founder and CEO of Women of the World. Welcome, welcome, welcome, Karine. How are you?

Very, very well. And it feels like we just saw each other.

Well, because we did very recently, and we enjoyed some great time together. And that's when I said, we have to have you on as a guest. I don't know how it didn't happen before, and we're fixing that now.

Thank you for the invitation.

So before we start, Karine, could you share one fun fact about you with our listeners and our viewers?

Well, I wanted to show this beautiful painting here. It's a painting by a— here, maybe I should go up there. It's a painting by a beautiful young Costa Rican artist, Ana Sofia. And actually, I'm a passionate surfer. And I have spent the last 8 years, half in Costa Rica, and I spent my COVID time there. You see a beautiful young woman standing in the waves, and that's actually often how I was standing in Costa Rica, especially in the morning early. So you see the reflection of the sun. And you see a young woman there standing. And, you know, I often look at that painting and then I— and then it brings me back.

That's what live is all about.

Yes.

So tell us a little bit more, Karin. You've had a very interesting journey in your past life to becoming an angel investor and then a real advocate. And I want to say ecosystem shaper and builder for women entrepreneurs and access to capital and markets. So can you maybe share a little bit about your journey and how you became an angel investor?

Well, I think first of all, I became involved with the women's issue and the women's topic almost 40 years ago. Wow. When, when I was actually studying in the United States at a women's college. And I mean, I remember graduating there, you know, at the end of the '80s thinking I literally owned the world, you know, and these, these women's colleges were actually a unique academic institute. I mean, they were called the Seven Sister Colleges. And, you know, I mean, for example, women like Hillary Clinton were educated, you know, at these women's colleges. She went to Wellesley and I went to Wells College. And, you know, these colleges were really sort of created, you know, actually Wells was situated very, very close to where the suffragettes started. So Seneca Falls. And I was actually, our college was in Aurora, New York. And so I really came back to Europe with a very strong focus of, okay, I can do whatever I want. But then I came back to a very patriarchal continent.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, I had studied women's literature, both English and Spanish, but especially in England. I think that the Victorian age, you know, really, it just showed how deeply ingrained, you know, these patriarchal, you know, ways of thinking were. I think what changed in Europe was the First World War, especially for English women. The Netherlands was neutral. So, you know, but in England, for example, a lot of women were, you know, driving buses and they were working in the factories and things like that. I mean, you know, you come from Ireland, so, I mean, you know all about that as well. So that had always triggered me. And I actually have a Norwegian mother and I have an English grandfather as well. And my father is from the Netherlands. I always felt that I had 3 nationalities running through my veins, and that my grandfather was actually born in Indonesia, in Bandung. So also a little bit of that history has also been going through my veins. But I remember always thinking, wow, I mean, England, especially around the time when I was studying, England had Thatcher, Margaret Thatcher. Well, we in the Netherlands have never had a female prime minister. Until now. And we're living in September of August 2026. And that's always had an enormous impact on many, many levels within companies. I mean, when I was studying— so later, I mean, I will tell you a little bit more, but later in life, because I was able to study women's studies at Harvard.

Mm-hmm.

And I really wanted to, um, research and investigate why actually so many more women in America were, were actually, you know, had board positions. But when then, when I looked at the big 6 multinationals, there were hardly any women. You know, there were, there were certain C-suite women, but definitely not in the decision-making.

Hmm.

And then when I started to do some digging, I really found also that it often had to do with the fact that there was no support from the government, you know, with like childcare and anything like that. I heard today at a luncheon that that's about to change and that as of January, 2027, the government in the Netherlands is going to pay for 90% of the childcare and that 10% will have to be paid by the parents themselves.

Wow.

Well, that is a huge— that's really going to give so much more space for couples, you know, because then— but that was never the case. So, I mean, my generation, to be quite honest, we had a lot of opt-out women, a lot of women who were all, you know, because everyone went to study. I mean, during my High school years, there was the slogan, "A a smart girl is prepared for a future." So everyone went to university and went to study. But then when they found a man, you know, I mean, the Netherlands healthcare and education is paid for by the government. You know, I mean, we pay quite high taxes. It's not like in America where you know you have to pay for all of that privately. So there was not the need for women to work, and I often think that the Dutch government. They never put that out there, you know, that we need your talents or we need your energy or your creativity. Whereas I think, you know, my thesis at Harvard was about gender equality in boards because I always figured if you use the unique talents of both sexes, I think then sky's the limit.

Mm-hmm.

But it was very hard because a lot of men, you know, I remember they were always saying to me, why are you always focusing on the women's issue and things like that? But now they are starting to see it. I mean, because they see in America women's rights have actually— I campaigned, I protested and marched in Washington in the '80s with my fellow women's college classmates. And then in 2022, I was marching again in the rain in New York.

Yeah.

And then in June 2022, those rights were taken away. So I think now people are seeing, start, you know, the people are really starting to see if you do not keep on fighting for these for these topics, you know, men are going to take our jobs away. And then we come to the funding.

Hmm.

When I came back from my Harvard education, I wanted to create this interactive children's museum for children because I had seen in America, first of all, I'd seen what these children's museums did to our son. He was able to develop certain talents. He was able to learn to play with certain technologies. And I really saw like a growth and I saw him playing with other children than from the children only from his school. So I came back in 2006 with that idea. And I also saw the impact of technology that children were really starting to learn differently. So I thought, if I can create an interactive children's museum for all children, you know, like in a Boston Children's Museum, children from East Boston or from impoverished areas were able to come for free on Friday.

Hmm.

I thought, well, that's going to be a great, you know, social project as well. But then unfortunately, the crisis happened in 2008, and I don't think any one of us really, you know, had actually anticipated how long that was going to last. But it lasted so much longer. So half of the funding that had been committed to us all of a sudden just evaporated.

Yeah.

And I kept on knocking on all these doors, and I remember pitching all the time, but I never sat across a woman. There was— and men have a different relationship to education than women because, you know, often it's the mothers. I mean, look at COVID. It was the mothers, you know, doing online school.

schooling.

Anyway, and then in 2011, my partner and I, we decided this is not the right moment. We can use our talents much better for other things. And I started to focus on helping female entrepreneurs. That's when I launched Women of the World in 2011 to help raise money. I helped them to pitch, to learn how to pitch, because, you know, it takes certain techniques. And also, I just really felt And I'm actually, I'm actually a little bit sad in that sense because, because already back then they were saying, well, only 2% of, you know, of VC funding is going to women. Well, if we look, and we spoke about that last week when we saw each other, we're still on that, on that percentage.

And it hasn't changed in over 30 years, Karine. This is the fact. This is the fact. And so if we wait just patiently for things to change, it will not change. Okay? It hasn't changed, not in the past 10, in the past 30. It has not moved. So we have to act. And you are doing that through Women of the World and also as an angel investor, because I want you to talk about both hats, whichever one you want to talk about first, because we obviously are here to hear about Women of the World. So, but also, I'd love to hear about your journey, maybe first as an angel investor, and then how you used all of those skills. You were a founder. So you went from founder, which is— I love— that's the virtuous circle for me. It's going from founder to becoming an angel investor to supporting other women and giving access to capital and markets to other women, and that's how we change the system. So what— maybe if you want to share a little bit about the angel investing side first, and then we go into full into Women of the World, because you've got an amazing, an amazing organization there, and I want everybody to know about it.

Thank you so much. Well, the nice thing is, in a way, the angel investing came to me through Women of the World, because the first 5 years I was, you know, I was helping like I remember that you mentioned that you knew Marion Speer from TEDxAmsterdamWomen. Well, she was an entrepreneur that I helped to fundraise because otherwise I think TEDxAmsterdamWomen would have just ceased to exist.

Right.

And, you know, I mean, I had a pretty good network with a lot of, you know, executives and companies and private people. And I loved working on a project where I was able to bridge Dutch women with Turkish women, Moroccan women, you know, I mean, really being a inclusive event for women. And what always made me very sad during that fundraising period is that these women that I would approach, whether it was Accenture or Deloitte or ABN AMRO, they had to fight for those €10,000 because men rather spend it on Formula 1 or golf or hockey or soccer or whatever. And I also saw how lonely they often were because, and this is what I had, you know, of course, researched, you know, before, yeah, for years before that, that, you know, and it's very hard for women to come to the top if they do not have a support system. You know, I mean, one of my favorite professors was Richard Hackman. He had written the book Leading Teams.

Mm-hmm.

He was also a psychologist, and he said, boards will never change if they do not have at least 2 or 3 women in a board, because somehow men just don't listen to women when they say something. It's very weird. But, and so, but if they would have another woman, and preferably 2 other women, they will be able to support each other. He said the best functioning boards have 7 people in it, 4 men, 3 women. Because he always said women feel the temperature of a room. And, you know, they often don't have to say that much, but what they say often can pivot any conversation.

And they're often, I want to say, if not most times, more prepared for those meetings than the men. I mean, that's it. And which also infuriates me about this trend of women having to do women leadership programs to be on a board when men have never done those or had to. So yet we're still adding another barrier. And I think it's a bit of a mixed thing, that, because it's also women, because of society, we have to prove ourselves 3, 10, 50 times over. And if you're a woman of color or from a different diversity group, God help you. It's all compounded, the intersectionality. And it's like, wow, okay. So it's fascinating to hear. And it's lovely to see the red thread of your passion for gender equality from very young, from studying through gender studies, including at Harvard, to then Women of the World. So, so when you started, maybe tell us about Women of the World and then how the fundraising part became a key part of that.

Well, so when I was working with TEDxAmsterdam Women and we had all these partners, I felt there was so much information in Silicon Valley that women here in the Netherlands could learn from, whether they were entrepreneurs or investors or academics or executives. So I started to bring these groups together, and our first mission was in 2018, I think, and we had 35 women, which was a lot. And we went for a week to Silicon Valley. And it was interesting because one of the women that I wanted to share a story with to you, She joined that first mission and she's now about to join our 5th. At least she will come for the 5th time, but it's going to be our 11th mission because we're going to go to China. And I would love to talk about that a little bit later.

Yeah.

But when she joined in 2018, she was still a banker. She worked for JPMorgan. She was head of investor relations, and she literally did all the big clients from the Netherlands for the office in London. And she was also— she had a great idea about corporate casting that was headhunting for financial services. And of course, but she was also intrigued in technology, and AB InBev had also sent their top female executives. And so, I mean, I had a very nice mix of female executives. And then 2 years later, during COVID unfortunately, her husband passed away. And she, you know, she was a banker and an economist. So, you know, she was financially able, you know, to pick up—

She was savvy. Yeah.

But she realized at that time that there's so many women when they become a widow, you know, especially, you know, in the Netherlands, a lot of women have no idea about the financial, you know, of their, of the family and everything. So she started and she launched this app called Widows and Widowers. Started only for widows, but now she's included the widowers as well for the widowers. And she actually showed me her new app yesterday. And it's just beautiful to see. She said, Karine, you made me a woman in tech in 2018. And she said, now I go to Web Summit every year and I, and I tell my story. And she's been to China already. She's been to Japan. She's been to Saudi Arabia. And she says now globally, and she's got her own Widows and Widowers Day, the 23rd of June. She organizes all over the Netherlands. you know, meetings and sessions. And, you know, men have— men want to have like a, like a buddy, and women, you know, want to, want to learn more about financials. And I mean, so she's really, she's really established herself. Yeah. As, as a woman with a big heart who's very vulnerable about her own process. And I mean, if I hear about those, yeah, I mean, these are for me success stories.

Yeah, for sure. And I mean, can you walk us through— and I mean, it's a success story story, A, in how she described her experience with Women of the World and with you, how you brought her and helped her become a woman in tech, and how over those 5 trips that she did with you, she has scaled and grown immeasurably thanks to the contact and the connection she made as part of being a member of Women of the World. So walk us through what a trade mission looks like, from how do you choose the destinations, how do you choose the participants, how many people go, and then what do you do? Like, how long are the trade missions and how long You know, how does it work?

Well, it's interesting. I was part of 2 trade missions myself, and I remember there were maybe only 3 or 4 women, and the programs were completely focused on men. And I remember coming back not feeling very inspired, you know, because often we went—

Yeah, it was like, when you say focused on men, what do you mean? Tell us more.

Well, Men are, I think, less interested in hearing the stories behind the stories. So, and they want to go drinking at night. And, um, I mean, it's all only— it's often very much focused on financials, whereas women want to also focus on, yes, but who is the person behind this job? I mean, so very much more about the humanity side of it. The culture side. So my, my trade missions also, like, they start with a culture day.

Mm-hmm.

You know, like, for example, when, when we went to the, to the East Coast of the United States around the Kamala Harris elections, we went to, to Philadelphia and we went to the Constitution Museum. And nobody ever does that. They either go to New York or they go to Washington or they go to Boston or they go to California, to Silicon Valley and everything, or they go to Houston or Chicago. And I had about 15 women joining us. It's usually my preference now is 10 to 15. We started with 35. That was too many because then, you know, you have to manage. Women are not always easy as well. So, and but 15 is perfect because then, you know, you want to be able to sit next to someone you haven't spoken to the night before. The missions are usually 5 days from Monday to Friday, although when we went to Japan last year, we added on 5 days to do culture. And now for China, we'll also add a Sunday to do a culture day. In Saudi Arabia, we also added a Sunday to do a culture day. But I remember also myself, and I'd studied in America, I remember how much that visit to the Constitution Museum, you know, made me understand America better.

Yeah.

And how the Founding Fathers worked, and how the Constitution works, and why it's so difficult to change. You know, I mean, we in the Netherlands don't understand why that— the right to, like, you know, arm— actually arm yourself, why they cannot, you know, come up with a new law in a way, because— It's made them— I mean, someone said to me last night, do you realize, Karine, when you walk down Fifth Avenue, that maybe 70% of the people that you've just passed by, Americans, may have been carrying a gun?

Yeah.

And it freaked me out.

That's very frightening.

No, but it's true, most likely. And it's such a different society. But I remember when we— after we went to New York and then Washington and everything, I felt that all the content that we heard, all the presentations, whether it was from the consul or we went, you know, we always go to to universities because I think, you know, the thought leadership, you know, you want to understand the academics of a country. What are they being taught or where are the ideas coming from? I think everyone understood America better after we had visited the Constitution Museum. In Saudi Arabia, it was the exact same thing. In Japan, it was the same thing. And I think in China, it's going to be the same thing as well. So the groups usually consist of 15 women, Entrepreneurs, investors, academics, and executives. For me, it's very important that they upfront have a clear idea why they want to join the mission. You know, do they want to maybe take their company to that country? Do they want to go and launch something? Is there something that they want to bring back to the Netherlands?

Mm-hmm.

I find it very important that they, that they're not only taking, but that they're also giving. And I find it also very much important that they're good listeners. I remember when I was talking to the Dutch ambassador in Beijing, and I'm now preparing our next trip to China, he said, Corinne, please focus on women that are good listeners, because he said the Chinese people have a different way of communicating than Americans, for example. And I said, thank you very much for that advice. I said, of course, you know, we will take that into account. And I think what a lot of people don't realize about China is that during the Cultural Revolution, Mao Zedong, for example, said women hold up half the sky. I don't think anyone has ever said that in Europe.

No. And I don't think they ever will, unfortunately.

No. So I think there is so much that we can learn. But, you know, of course, because the Western media is very much dominated by an anti-Chinese sentiment, It's not always been easy for China, you know, in the whole relationship with Europe and with America especially. But this is the reason also why I want to bring women along with me, because there was a mission recently organized to China, and of the 17 people that went, there was only one woman.

Yeah.

And then I'm like, we can and must do better in that. So, you know, the current trade missions that I'm seeing have actually inspired me to start organizing these trade missions. And one of the beautiful things is that we have invested. That's where the angel investing actually also comes in. When we went to the United States, we have invested with the group in a female entrepreneur in Silicon Valley. Her name is Sulaima Gourani, and the company is called Happio. And I mean, she has already been taken over by someone else, but it's, it's very much like an AI company. to help get more clarity in your agenda. Well, I think we all need that. So that was wonderful, and she was a very inspiring speaker. And so, you know, these things happen naturally.

Yeah.

We actually invite— we always, you know, we always have wonderful support from the Dutch Embassy and the Dutch Consulate, and we invite them, you know, to bring social and female inspiring entrepreneurs, you know, introduce them to our group. And sometimes it turns out that they're actually in a fundraising period. And then, of course, you know, I mean, some— so we've actually had some entrepreneurs who joined just invest themselves, pretty big chunks. Same happened in Dubai when we were in the UAE. We went 3 times to the UAE, which was around the World Expo. I'd been to the UAE in 2018 after I'd been to the first FII in Riyadh. And I remember that everyone was very much preparing for the, for the big Expo. And I, like, I love the Olympics and I also love the Expo because, you know, it really allows every country to showcase, you know, the best what they're doing. And I often try to focus even on countries that are actually, you know, in conflict because even they have aspirations for their young people. And but unfortunately, because of COVID that was postponed to 2021. And I organized the first mission. I'm going to still going to say I'm going to be honest. I'm very proud of that. I was there before the Prime Minister and before our King and Queen. We were there the second week of October, and I brought 15 amazing women with me. And some of them have actually now joined to come to Saudi Arabia. Some joined to go to Japan, and now some of them are coming to China.

Amazing.

And we were introduced to a wonderful woman called Sophie Smith. She's a British woman, and I think she'd already done an IPO in Sierra Leone with a healthcare company. And now she launched Nabta Health because, you know, with Muslim women, of course, you know, they're very private. They often don't take their—

Seen by female doctors, etc., and practitioners.

They don't take their health often, you know, serious enough. And especially for them, it's difficult to go to clinic when there are also men there. That has to do with hygiene, everything. She saw a market to launch women's health clinics. And it's wonderful because the Gates Foundation has also invested in her. The Clinton Health Initiative, Hillary Clinton and Chelsea went to visit her during COP in 2028— no, COP28 in 2023, December 2023. And so I invested personally in her, but also some of the women of our Trade Mission invested in her and are still supporting her because she's had a very difficult time because of the war that happened. She had just raised $2 million in January, and then end of February, of course, this war happened with Iran, and it's impacting them immensely. Yeah, but, you know, she just sent an investor memo to all of us, and I must say I'm extremely impressed with her resilience.

Real quick, Anne here. InvestHER Summit 2026 is coming to Paris in October, connecting global scaling women entrepreneurs with investors, corporates, and others to scale faster. Save 20% with early bird tickets at investhersummit.com. That's investhersummit.com. Oh wow. And so, I mean, these trade missions sound absolutely incredible. So you organize them yourself, but then in, in parallel with or in partnership with the consulate, like the Dutch consulates, um, in the different countries. Um, and so tell us a little bit more about the typical week. So you either top and tail the week with a cultural, um, visit, which I totally agree with you, I think that is critical, and it's often forgotten in a lot of conferences and/or trade missions in that you just go for business meeting, networking, networking, like 20 million meetings, and you could be meeting the wrong people or having too fast one. You cannot build a lasting relationship on a quick— you know, you can have a little taster, but it really— you really need to, um, you need more time to develop that, that relationship. And specifically what you said, I agree a million percent. We need to understand the culture of the other country that we want to do more business with, and not a superficial level of the country, of the culture. And you do get a better taste of it when you Have those cultural experiences. So apart from the top and tail cultural experiences, walk us through maybe what you have planned. I don't know if you can already share what you have planned for China, or if not, maybe let's do that because then it'll give people a flavor of what you're doing. And when is the trade mission to China? Tell us more all about it.

Well, I mean, the reason with China on the, you know, I mean, like the first day, it also brings the group together because if you if you go from business to meeting, business meeting, you have no chance to interact with each other. Yeah. And I, I think if you would interview all the women who have— and I would love for you to interview some more who have been on my group because I think you will love them all— they all say Women of the World stands for global sisterhood.

Yeah.

And they have felt it when things were tough. They felt it during COVID Like this woman in Saudi, in the UAE, she says, Karine, I have felt got incredible support, you know, the last 6 months from all of you. And, you know, nobody has like taken out their money or has— we're done. And, you know, it just said we're really there. So we're not only there for the good things, also for the bad things. And—

So important.

I always start these trips with a personal interview in a way, you know. So we will make time. I mean, I actually call it the Talking Stick Ceremony. And, you know, like for example in Tokyo— no, yeah, in Tokyo and We started outside the most beautiful temple, and I wanted to hear from everyone, you know, what did you leave behind in order to be here?

Wow.

What are you bringing to this group and to this trip? And what do you hope to gain from this trip? But I also sent them these questions beforehand so that they can prepare a little bit. And that already for me is always such a gift because, you know, then everyone opens up and, you know, and sometimes it's quite emotional. Some people have actually had to leave something behind, a difficult situation, maybe personal or business-wise. You know, I mean, I am always very humble in a way because I realize it's a personal investment from them. Time. They are giving me their time and their money, but most importantly, their time.

Mm-hmm.

And so I want those trips to be life-changing and unique. And I've heard that from many of the women. They said, God, Karine, this really was a gift to myself. I've made lifelong friendships. Actually, one of our women, and you know them, is Beth Massa, because I've actually sent her to one of your conferences. She's the one driving around Europe now with a camper van.

I know, for fundraising.

No friends. money, but I want money.

Yeah.

And now other women are responding to that and thinking, hey, wait, that woman went also on a Women of the World trip. I remember, you know. So I love it when, when these kind of friendships are actually created. And then we have the— we have an opening night dinner where I will ask the consulate or the embassy to send me like their 5 most dearest relations, in a way that they've had to build up a very So that in a way they feel that if they have met these women, then they really feel that they are that they've come home in that country. And I think and then by the time when we start on the Monday morning, because like for example in in our trip to China, we will start in Hong Kong, and we will have a presentation with the GBA office, which is the Greater Bay Area office. Because China, you know, I mean, as you know, in 1997 was the official handover. It was the British before that. But they, I mean, Xi Jinping and the government, they're really focusing on the Greater Bay Area. That's their economic success story. You've got Hong Kong, which is almost now blending into Shenzhen, and then Shenzhen, which has grown within 30 years from this small fishing village to a 40 million, you know, metropolis.

Megapole or something. That's what they call it now. It's crazy.

Yeah. Where all the innovation literally is coming from. robotics, you know, the drones. I mean, you know, as I said, I went to visit them in April to prepare for the trip. We were supposed to go in October now of this year, but the war has had impact on us as well. So we've actually decided to postpone to next year, April, and we have spots available. So if women are interested in joining, and I'm hoping you will join us as well.

I would love to. And we will share all of those details, the links for people to connect with you in the show notes.

Thank you.

And so on the trip, you start with those special events, and then who else are you planning that they will meet? So do they meet other great Chinese businesswomen? Do they meet other chambers of commerce? So how does it actually pan out?

Well, I must say that the program is already in a way so full that I will have to start because one of the feedback of the last trip in Japan is that our programs are very high-paced. And that's because, as you know, you met me now a couple of times, but I have a lot of energy myself. But I've had to accept that not everyone has that amount of energy. So, you know, we often would plan 5, 6 meetings in a day, and I've had to scale down that because I do, you know, by the end of the week, people were often so exhausted. And but then I think, well, you've flown all the way to the other side of the world, so I want you to be able because I have a global network. So I mean, yes, of course, I work together with with the consulate, but actually for for Hong Kong and China, I've also worked with an incredible woman called Maaike Steinebach. She used to be the head of Visa. She's Dutch, and she and I were on the Inspiring Fifty. European list in 2018-19, I think. And so I've been in touch with her and, you know, I mean, she's an absolute powerhouse living in Hong Kong, has an enormous network. So, I mean, she's part of the International Women's Forum, which we are actually about to launch in the Netherlands on the 17th of September as well. And she is right now helping so many female entrepreneurs in Hong Kong, you know, to get started. So she, for me, is a wonderful partner. and I'm so grateful for her. And she'll be part of the reception program. We will be visiting the Asia Society. So, I mean, in all the meetings, we will have a lot of culture also integrated. We will talk with the— maybe I think there's like a Dutch CEO Business Council. So all the CEOs of Dutch companies represented there. And so we are going to the Hong Kong Science University. We're going to go to the Hong Kong Innovation Hong Kong City University. I mean, there's so much. We'll have to make a decision what, because I mean, I really want them to also have time to actually reflect.

Yeah. And are you going to focus on Hong Kong only, I think, or you said you're going to Shenzhen as well? Today is Hong Kong.

Yeah. And then so we start in Hong Kong on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday half, and then from there we will go to Shenzhen. There will be 2 days as well. There we have the NSBSO, which is helping us, which is a Dutch affiliation. For example, there, you know, we'll have coffee delivered by drones, for example.

Oh, so cool.

Yeah, you will go to a store where you'll see the robots literally dancing, playing the piano. You'll see how robotics is already integrated in Chinese society, where you will see how they help with the cleaning of the house. They can actually already empty the dishwasher. They can already put clothes into a washing machine. It's actually incredible what it already can do there. And then from there, we will go to Guangzhou. And there we will— actually, we will visit, I think it's the biggest trade fair in the world at the moment. It's usually 3 weeks. It's in April and October. So my trips will always be to China, and especially to GBA, will always be around that period. And there you will literally see— I mean, I saw in April like a whole hall filled with electric vehicles, which I know we are never going to see here in Europe. I think the only one we have here is the BYD, the Build Your Dream. But I saw so many other ones. But then, you know, they have a market of 1.4 billion people.

Yeah.

So, I mean, And someone told me today, a China expert specialist, he said, you know, they have such a surplus of their trade, you know, going abroad. I mean, Europe is, you know, also doing a little bit like this. So what I'm hoping that women will learn from this trip, I hope that they will be inspired. I'm hoping that they will meet with Chinese women because if there's one thing that really stood out to me in April when I was there, the women are so eager to connect with us. And not because they want to leave China, which was differently in 2008 when I was in China. A lot of the women wanted to leave, especially young women. I remember we had our son with us, and then we went to an event, and I had a babysit. She reached out to me months after that. She said, "You know, I really want to leave here. I feel so suffocated." That is gone. They are. I mean, when I ask them name four wonderful things about China, they'll say. Safety, security, innovation, and convenience. And it's true. Well, those are four things. I'm sorry, but I would not say them about the Netherlands. No, and in most you probably wouldn't say them about France either.

No, exactly. So what would you say changes for one of the women of the world when she's connected across borders through capital and markets? What changes when she when she's come back from one of your trade missions?

They all say that these missions have made them look differently at themselves. They feel that because the way that I present them, for example, one of the highlights of my own trip was that in Saudi Arabia we had a female ambassador. So I've always tried to look at countries where there's a female consul or female ambassador, and Saudi Arabia, we had an incredible female ambassador. Now there's a man, and she's now ambassador in Iraq. And I said to her, you know, I said, I've had a very hard time organizing this trip because there was a lot of, you know, a lot of opposition also from men saying, Karine, how can you go to Saudi Arabia? They're still violating human rights and women's rights, everything. And women are still locked up in the home and everything. Well, I had been there before, and I had seen a different Saudi Arabia and this whole Chop Chop Square that people were saying. I was like, I'm sorry, but that's not Saudi Arabia. So yeah, but they are absolutely brainwashing you and everything. Men can be tough in the Western world because they're being brainwashed by America and about the corporate media. Anyway, I said to her, if I'm coming, I want to have a meeting with the Human Rights Council because that for me, Amnesty International, all these things, I mean, I'm a women's rights activist. I've always been. I've been You know, very much. I was on the board of IWPR. I've been always a big supporter of Human Rights Watch and all these institutes. She said, well, she said that it'll be difficult because she said every meeting that you— that I'm going to organize for you, you need a male chaperone. I have to organize through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Oh, wow.

Which is the same in China, by the way.

I just heard today. Yeah.

So I am dependent I have never felt so, in a way, afraid when I flew out to Riyadh because as I was boarding the plane with 15 women, of 60% of the meetings, I didn't know whether they had been approved. This is how Saudi Arabia works. I mean, everything was approved and we were able. And the best meeting for me was that the Human Rights Council accepted us because we were the first all-female trade mission from the Netherlands coming to Saudi Arabia. And she answered all the questions of all the women. There was not one question that she— because there was at that time a woman who had been— she was going to be sentenced to 11 years in jail for a tweet that she had written. Her sisters had already eloped and evicted to Ireland. But she unfortunately was too late for that. We were able to actually ask that question.

Wow.

Yes. And there was— and I think women from our side, we all felt that we were able, from the Western point of view, were able to share our concern about that. And she was able to share with us her point of view. And we had a similar incident in Japan, but that was on a different topic. where the women felt that there was— they were able to share their point of view, and there came a very honest answer from the other side. And I think that's when I feel that the trips are a success, because there is, you know, it's not only that these women can learn from us, but we can also learn from them. I mean, I'm not saying that it was right, you know, what's happening in Saudi Arabia. And I really hope that they were able to, in the last— because she said she hasn't been sentenced yet, I said, yeah, but I said, but I said, is there a way that we can, you know, put any pressure on that, or can we actually influence, you know, Amnesty International, things like that? And she said, I will take this meeting into account. And then later, wow, he tweeted about our meeting on Twitter. Wow. Dutch delegation, the first all-female delegation from the Netherlands, made the effort to come to Saudi Arabia together, of course, with the ambassador of the Janet and And she was very impressed with the level of the women, you know, who are asking questions. And that for me, and then when I later get the evaluation of the women, of course, and they said, wow, Corinne, thank you for bringing us into a real arena of human rights, because that's how it felt for me too.

And I mean, what I love is that I think something we have in common is our absolute passion to support women entrepreneurs and our passion to do incredible curation so that they get access to incredible people that they wouldn't normally have access to, and in order to effect change, to change mentalities, to build bridges, to connect. And that just shines out of you, Karine. It just shines out of you.

Thank you.

So let's turn back to angel hat, because we will put all the information about Women of the World, the China expedition, trade mission, all of that you'll find in the show notes and of course on Karin's LinkedIn, and we'll be sharing about it too. So you'll hear more about it.

Thank you.

I want you to come back a little bit to the funding side and just to pick your brain on what would you say, like, how do you like founders to approach you if they're looking for funding? Do you like, what's your investment thesis? And like by geography as well as by sector?

Well, I have a clear passion for women's health because, and that's very much where my connection also is with Maike Steinebach, because she is part of the femtech.nl in the Netherlands right now. There's also a women's health movement which was launched. And, you know, I mean, I see more and more, like we were talking about Borski Fund and Rubio. I mean, there are more VC funds investing in women's health. Yeah. I mean, and we cannot blame the men because, you know, there are physical, you know, ailments and things that we have to deal with. Yeah. Um, and so of course, you know, I mean, there is much more interest from our sex, you know, to actually invest in that. Yeah. Luckily, there are also some very profitable examples. And, you know, this is the way it works. I mean, I'm always saying I always like to think that the glass is half full. There are a lot of people who think the glass is half empty. And I'm always saying, women came later to the game with everything. I mean, I still think it's criminal that my mother had to stop working the moment that she got married.

Yeah.

Because it really stopped her development. And I sometimes even think that she was more intelligent than my father. I mean, if I look at our investment She did so well, you know. I mean, she because women invest from the heart. Yes. No, already back then, you know, with her stocks, she knew she always looked at the CEO. She looked at his relationship with his wife and with his children. You know, those kind of things. Because she figured those are the same man. He's at home the same man as at the company. So if he takes good care of his wife and his children, of course, because my father, she knew many of these. these, these CEOs, she would invest. But she also said, oh no, that man is not okay. And then she would actually withdraw her stocks or investments.

Wow.

And I see in women's health, I see an enormous increase of women investing. I mean, we were both together of the, of the Thousand Faces, uh, you know, movement last year with our wonderful friend Munja, who I met at, uh, Tech Barbecue in Copenhagen. Are you going actually Are you?

Are you? No, no, no, no.

Anyway, and I also said to her, I said, you know, you will see an enormous increase in angel investment and, and seed investment in women's health because I think it's women like to invest close to home. So like what happened with that woman in, in Silicon Valley, we were, you know, meeting with her. She had a great presentation. We were all inspired by her enormous bubbly energy. We, and everyone said, okay, well, let's just invest in her. Same happened with Sophie. Then I invested in the Netherlands in a company which is focused on juices and on healthcare and on healthy food. It's something close to me because I can go to the store, I can see, hey, are they doing well? They had a female co-founder. For me, that's always important. And I think I told you that I also invest in Future Planet Capital and in Antler, and I just joined Asterion Ventures. ventures, you know, and help them to connect them to family offices. And but also there, you know, I see if they actually embrace more female energy in the whole investment world, I think it really will increase their profits.

So, and you've kind of preempted one of my kind of final questions around here, which is like, what trends, what key trends do you see now in funding women entrepreneurs? And what needs to change. So let's start with the key trends from your kind of laser focus on, on global focus.

Well, I think the interesting thing is because Women of the World is such a global company, for example, it's interesting, but in China there's an enormous, enormous growth of sex toys. It's in— it's incredible. I get them onto my Instagram, LinkedIn, nonstop. And I saw this already at CES 5 years ago. You know, the big consumer electronics show in Las Vegas.

Yeah.

And every time, you know, like after the first day, there was like always like the New York Times, I think, or the Wall Street Journal, maybe, you know, like they do like a write-up and everything. And they said 5 years ago, oh my God, what's happening? There's an enormous, you know, increase of sex toys being sold and everything. So it's interesting how you see that first in America and now it's happening in China.

Everywhere.

So that's one thing that I see. I think robotics is at this moment in China, I mean, if I looked at the big trade fair, that was the biggest increase. I mean, you know, look at people, I mean, people who have a garden, you know, I mean, no one has a is like, we don't know anymore. You see this thing going up and down, even at the golf course now, there's this thing driving, you're like, wait, where's the guy? No more things like that. I mean, I think the Western world, it will be integrated slower and it'll take longer.

Yeah.

I think in China, I think that the one-child policy is unfortunately catching up with them. So, you know, they just don't have enough children and they, you know, taking care of their parents and things like that. I think the whole addiction to screens in China really is not healthy. I think there are a lot of lonely people, but then you've got these robots chatting with them. So, you know, I think you will need to look at countries. I think you really see different trends in different countries. I always say to female entrepreneurs, look at what is missing in your country. What's something that you really are upset about or something that You need that's not there and start it. For example, my husband was the founder of the Buderbak, which is the Dutch U-Haul version. Because the Dutch, we are the big— we have the biggest amount of hatches around behind a car because, you know, 1 out of 4 cars has a hitch because we all go camping in France or in Germany or whatever. So it's very easy to put one of those in the back of your car. The Dutch are also a little bit stingy. I mean, the going Dutch, you know, expression comes from somewhere. Yes. So at the end of the month, everyone is moving their own stuff, you know, they're rather— so things like that. I mean, I think that's what I'm always saying to women, you know, look at something that you are upset about, or that you would like. I mean, of course, women will often do something in clothing or jewelry or cosmetics or things like that. From Antler's point of view, which I've also been investing for 5 years, they are only investing in startups that are using AI to augment or accelerate. I sometimes am not always a fan with that because I'm always saying, we are human beings. We need to say— and that's why I loved your previous— Nikki, I loved also that she said, we need to keep on investing in humanity because at some point—

Yeah.

I mean, yes, AI is fantastic and it's incredible. And we need to— I mean, we need need to educate ourselves. So, I mean, I do inspire every woman, you know, do educate yourself because it will overtake you. But always remember to stay a human being, you know, because I have seen people do really strange things and they have actually allowed technology to overtake the human relationship. And I think that it actually ruins a lot of— I mean, I COVID, the Zoom relationships, all, you know, I think it really deteriorated. And from what I heard also today, so many young children are having mental health issues, age 25, 26, some of the age of my son and also of yours, who were 20, 21 during COVID Mm-hmm. And they're having a hard time right now. So I think I'm always inspiring women, you know, if there's something that you can create to alleviate and to help the mental health issues, you know, that are happening right now, I think that that'll be an enormous success.

So as we wrap up, what would you say is— well, what's the best way for people to contact you, Kahin?

For me, preferably through LinkedIn.

Okay, great. And then if you had one parting message to our listeners and our viewers, what would it be?

Never underestimate, you know, what one meeting with one person, you know, can do to you. So, you know, I'm always inspiring people to go. I mean, I get tons of messages from people through LinkedIn, but not in a personal way.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm always trying to see, yes, but is there something in your story, you know, that hits home to me. And so I really inspire people to go to conferences or to whatever, you know, and to meet with people. And because, you know, have your case ready in 30 seconds. I mean, you know, it is the elevator pitch, but I think it does work. Hmm. And, um, and do not, uh, you know, be, be shy to reach out to people or to say to people, hey, you know, this is what I want to do. Do you know any anyone in your network that could maybe help me with that or, you know, and to reach that objective.

Brilliant. Well, thank you so much, Cathleen. It's been an absolute pleasure. We could talk for hours. I know that. And, you know, let's keep this as an open invitation to potentially have another podcast episode in a few, you know, next year or whatever, to kind of look back and see how everything has gone with China and just in general. So thank you so, so much. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Thank you so much for the invitation.