🎙️ EP25: Using Innovation Partnerships as a Source of Funding, with Susan… | InvestHer Podcast

Welcome to episode 25 of InvestHer Podcast. If you're a newbie, welcome, you're in for a ride because this is a super fast episode. And if you are a regular listener, I think you're going to really enjoy hearing today from Susan Hayes-Culliton, who is the founder and CEO of Active Peers AI. Now Active Peers AI is a tool that helps peers, people who are peers, actually learn from each other more efficiently and use that learning to practically apply it straight away. So it's a super useful tool. And in today's episode, she's going to share with you an interesting source of funding, which is innovation partnerships with universities. So today you're going to learn all about how do they work, how do you get them, how do you contact universities to do part of your research and, and get some funding to fund part of your research to build your company, the tech side out or other, the research side out. And then you're going to learn how to manage those key stakeholder relationships with the university, with the researchers, with yourself inside your own company, and all the good, good dos and don'ts you need to know. So if you are thinking, if you have a tech company, if you have a medical company, or a company where you know you're going to need to partner with a research institute or with a university, this This episode is for you. But can I tell you, hold on to your socks because boy does Susan speak fast, have amazing ideas at 20 million a second. So just saddle up, get ready for this. It's going to be a great one.

Enjoy.

Investor Podcast is for you, the female founder who has a product, a service, or a message that you believe in and need to get funded, or for you, the investor. Who wants to learn more about the huge untapped investment opportunity that gives you a higher return? Women entrepreneurs. My name is Anne Ravanona. I'm an entrepreneur, TEDx speaker, and women's advocate, and I'm passionate about helping women entrepreneurs get funded. In each episode, we'll take a behind-the-scenes look into real-world funding tactics and strategies to help you get the funding you need faster. Let's put the fun into funding. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let's get started. Great, so welcome everybody. This week's funding conversation is with a formidable Irish woman who is somebody you've got to know. I am so, so pleased to welcome Susan Hayes-Culliton to our show this week. Susan, welcome.

Thank you very much indeed, Anne. I'm really excited to meet everybody and to have the conversation all around funding from this particular area.

I love it. And so, okay, for people who don't know Susan, Susan is an incredible lady. You go by the kind of nickname the Positive Economist because you are a specialist, you are an economist, you are specialized in finance and all of that side of things, and you're also an entrepreneur, you're an MC, you're a speaker. Talk about multi-headed, fantastic lady. This is certainly one lady that you want to know. And it was funny because just before we went live, Susan was taking a photo of us like to share on Twitter. She's also really cool at social media. And today what we're going to be talking about is super, super interesting. So Susan, before we jump into it, I would love to know, can you share with the audience one fun fact about yourself just to warm everybody up before we get started?

Okay, well, one that probably people don't know about me is that I'm a brown belt in karate. Many people don't know, don't know that one at all, and it's generally one that I kind of keep to myself because I got my brown belt when I was 17 and I didn't go on to finish it off then and to get the black belt after all. So there you go, there's one, there's one for the books.

I love it. So when we say don't mess with Susan, we literally mean don't mess with Susan. I love it. So for those of you who are joining us live on this podcast, feel free to pop your questions in the chat box and I will be asking them to Susan as we go along. So let's get started. To frame this conversation, Susan, you are a woman entrepreneur and you have set up a company called ActivePeers AI. Can you tell us a little bit about your company before we go into how you've been using innovation partnerships as a source of funding? Because that's the nitty-gritty of our talk today.

Sure.

Okay.

Well, I might give it the kind of the slightly elongated version so that you get the emotional roller coaster along the way that I think is important to have in a conversation like this. So every year I go on a trade mission, every single one, back since I started doing business back in 2010 in our own business. And in 2016, I was on a trade mission to Dubai. And I really, for a start, I would encourage everybody to go on a trade mission every year. And you can do them virtually as well over the past 2 years, but I really would because it helps you to challenge your own assumptions. So when I was in Dubai, I thought to myself, wouldn't it be great if you could talk to somebody and who you knew would have the answer to your question, as distinct from Googling something where, you know, if you Google, you'll find the information. So anyway, I got this great idea when I was there, rang my husband in the middle of the night and everything else to say, oh my God, I have to tell you about this. And anyway, then came home, got the idea funded, as I know we'll talk about, Anne, and then I ended up going on to build it. And the reason that we call it Active Peers is that it's designed to enable active peer learning to happen. However, it was a failure. And the reason it was a failure— not the idea didn't fail and the technology didn't fail, both of those were fine— it was the business model that did. And that is often what can, you know, the difference between is there a market in the gap or a gap in the market. That's the bit of a difference, is we all know that there might be a need or a desire for something, but can we actually make it work commercially? And the problem was it was matching supply with demand at the same time, just wasn't working. So at the time, I was trying to build Airbnb for knowledge without Airbnb's money. However, we decided then to challenge the assumptions that we had along the way. And we said, let's think about things differently. And of course, what a lot of people don't tell you about innovation is they love talking about positive innovation or innovation that works. But there is so much of it that doesn't because it has been tried before and it is unprofitable or it's slow or it's too difficult or people don't want it or whatever. So anyway, We decided to challenge the assumptions and then we decided, okay, how about if we were to establish an algorithm that could connect people, what we were going to do on the online platform but in a room. So we're going to connect people based on what they know and what they want to learn. Now, little did I know this, Anne, little did I know it, and I'll tell you anything you want to know along the way, but little did I know it. But of course, we were soon to be going into a world of Zoom fatigue, of where people were going to be online learning or online networking or online anything, online everything. And they were going to be properly sick of it after a while. Whereas we knew how to actually engage people online in a way that enabled them to connect meaningfully and in an engaging way. So from there, ActivePeers then became and has now become 40% of our revenue. It underpins everything that we do, all of what you mentioned earlier, all so much of what we do. And then I said, okay, now I think we can go another level further. We can add in artificial intelligence in here. We can add in sentiment, we can add in so many more. And that really is where we're at now. We're back to testing assumptions. Now that we know what works and really, really works, we're now back to testing assumptions, adding in new ideas and testing out things. And of course, some of them are wrong and some of them are unprofitable and some of them people don't want and some of them are a bit new for their time. But now at least the difference is, Anne, I know it's par for the course as opposed to what's wrong with me. And that's where we're at now.

I love it. Does that resonate with anybody else in the audience? Because I would love you to kind of type it in the chat box because I think Listening to you, Susan, it's a question, as you said, it's like trying to find that product-market fit. Now you kind of had that, it was more the business model fit. And also though, what I'm hearing very clearly is it was a question of timing. I think the fact also that COVID has hit and so on, we've had all this Zoom fatigue and so on, being able to connect with your peers intelligently and done this in a meaningful way where you already know in advance that when you're connected, there's going to be a really good reason for it, and you're going to get value from that connection. I think that, you know, the timing aspect is an important piece, and I want us to remember that. And Christine is— Christy is saying like she relates to this totally because she's also building an AI-based startup as well. So that's why it's interesting to hear from her. So what is like your Tell us now your funding journey from the beginning. So what you did, because I know you, when we spoke, you said, I've been through this kind of 2 rounds of innovation partnerships. So, and you said to me, okay, I did it the first round, this is what I, you know, it didn't work for these reasons. And then I went through the second round. So can you tell us from the very beginning, how did it work? How did you even think about doing an innovation partnership? And what is an innovation partnership? Let's start there.

Okay, so I think that all funding journeys— and I know, Anne, you're like the queen of this area, and I love the way you describe it. I know you describe it as a game and you describe it as a recipe and so on like that. In my mind, risk— or sorry, funding is risk sharing. And when you're with a VC, you're sharing with the VC. And because we went down the road of an innovation partnership, we were risk sharing with the government by levering university resources. And I'll explain exactly what that means. So I knew, first of all, and I want to really make this point clear because there's a lot of people that are very worried about a funding journey and worried about giving away something and maybe don't quite see the reciprocation between what you get.

Hmm.

And I distinctly remember when, way back at the beginning, when I had the idea and I could see that the technology was possible, but I could see for the first time that this was not technology that we could fund bootstrapped-wise. And that was kind of scary because I knew how to do other stuff. I knew how to do it. But this was the first time where if this went wrong, it could— it was too expensive to try, basically. The risk profile of bootstrapped money did not match what we wanted to do. And that's a scary place to be because now you feel, okay, right now we have to go somewhere further afield. And then you start thinking, what do I have to give up? And What if it's the wrong— and you think of all these fears. However, the fear that was actually more real is what if we don't? And I also knew that the idea was too good to not try. So I just wanted to tell you that that was my emotional state at the beginning of this funding journey. So I came across an Innovation Partnership Feasibility Study. So this is a— this at the time was a €7,000 grant, 100%. And that was going to be basically, we take money from one arm of the government, which is Enterprise Ireland. And I know this is Irish-specific, but it replicates in other areas. They're going to take money from the government. We weren't going to get any of it. It was going to go into a university for them to look at this particular project. Now, here was where I had to take my normal commercial hat off. The feasibility was not testing the marketability of this idea. It was testing, could this actually be done? A, was it innovative enough? And B, was it innovative to a point where it could be done as opposed to something far-fetched? And the answer to that was yes. And then after that, then there was the much bigger partnership, which is an innovation partnership. Now, again, in Ireland, what this is, is where we put in some money, and I'll take you through the figures in a moment. We put in some money, we put in an awful lot of in-kind labor, and then the government puts in money as well. But the whole pool again goes into the university.

Hmm.

And that's it. That's it. You know, that's different from VC maybe, Anne, where you get money in, or it's different from a bank where you get money in, or bootstrapped. The idea here is that we were only a vehicle for moving resources from one arm of the government into a university activated by our own investment of both time and money as well. So to give you the numbers, in the first case, the first year, the whole amount was €125,000. €25,000 came from us in money. €25,000 was our in-kind labor, even though that was massively understating what it actually was, of course.

Yeah.

And then there was €75,000 came from the government. All this went into DCU, Dublin City University. And bear in mind at this stage, it was to build that first platform. Which we did pretty quickly. And, you know, in a way you could stop there. You know, you could just— and I know so many people like Christine is going to nod and smile at this bit— but you know you can convince yourself that if we just tweak this and we just do that, we're not ready to go to market yet, we're not ready to show anyone, like we just do this. And you can really convince yourself you're being very productive by changing colors and adding buttons and taking them away.

Oh, that resonates. Oh my God, I got stuck into that myself. Go on. Yeah.

So you really can, but I mean, I suppose I was around long enough to know that doing that in an ivory tower was going to get me nowhere. And it was in that first year, so it was a 2-year partnership, in that first year, then we decided to go out and get some— we didn't get UX testing, we got pure market research. Sorry.

So what do you mean by pure market research? So you were talking to actual users? What does that mean?

Yeah, so I didn't put someone down in front of a computer and say, do you like this? And do you like that? I did the harder one of saying, would you use this if this was put in front of you and you didn't know me? The last bit is hard because, and if you were to send me an email and say, Susan, I'd love to talk to you about an idea. And then I have a chat with you and then you say, okay, this is what it is. And I think, oh, this could be very interesting. For example, Global Investor. Yeah, of course. I think this sounds like a great idea, would be really useful. could be part of your target market. Sure, I'll take a look at it. That's very different to passing traffic on a website, or maybe you're coming across somebody's logo at, you know, sponsoring an exhibit. So it's important that I was asking people that. And here's why, circling back to this point again about going on a trade mission. They're brilliant for that because I could go to people who didn't have any investment in me, didn't have any precursor, didn't have any preexisting relationship, and saying, hi, I'm Susan, this is what we do. And then that's where you get the, Tell me again, you know, and for the benefit of those who are listening on a podcast, that wasn't that wasn't anything.

He was making a kind of crossing her arms going question mark like what are you talking about?

When they say what what good would this be to me, you know, and that's but that's what you need. So that's what I mean by pure market research. And we we like when I say quickly discovered, it's quick on retrospect at the time. It took about nine months for us to figure out that. If we were to connect supply and demand together, we'd be here yet. And, you know, and I read the Airbnb story and I love the idea of them knocking on doors in New York and they went in with their photographer. I did the equivalent of that, but just getting to the scale fast enough, it just wasn't gonna happen.

Hmm.

And I wasn't prepared. I wasn't prepared to give up a lot of equity at the beginning on a journey that we really didn't know where things were going because I didn't feel the value proposition was gonna be tight enough. I just didn't feel we were at that stage where that was gonna be the answer.

And how much did you give up then when you, like, for the innovation voucher, that was a grant, so you didn't give up any equity, but for then when you did the first innovation partnership, what percentage, how did that work?

This is a beautiful way that this works. So 0% of equity for a start, but it has the best characteristics of both. So first of all, if this doesn't work, right, if at the end of the 2 years, so at the end of the 2 years, we had the algorithm. So we had a success at the end of the 2 years. But if we walked away and said, look, we tried, we put in our time, we put in our €25,000, we've gone the journey, we've done everything we can, that's it, then that would have been the end of it. As far as the government is concerned, we put skin in the game with our money and our time and our network and our energy. So that is, we'll say, the equivalent of equity on the downside, which is if this doesn't work, we all walk away. Now, it did work from the point of view that, as I say, we had the algorithm at the end, and therefore what we have in place is a license. based on X percent of revenue only arising from what the algorithm is used for, and up to twice the amount of grants that we actually got in. So I mean—

Okay, do that, take that more slowly, because I think for people who are really new to this, it's, you know, just take it, break that down bit by bit out of that formula. It's an X percent. So when you say you have a license, you have a license to use the technology now, the algorithm that has been built by DCU, by the university, is that correct? So you kind of But that means that you kind of owe them a license forever. You owe them a percentage. How does it work?

Okay. So first of all, the— a very important term I'm going to introduce here is, first of all, our license is exclusive. So this isn't that we basically funded the university to come up with something that they can sell to whoever wants it. And that's important for any of you that might ever, you know, co-fund something or risk share with somebody, is that who owns this at the end and when is the end? So first of all, and on the journey before we ever got to the end, it is exclusive to us. The second thing then is we put in place a license then of where we have to— the license fee is dependent on results, and those results are revenue-based. So not profitability, revenue-based. So we have made an agreement at X% of the amount of revenue that we took in, but this wasn't the company's revenue. This was revenue arising from the innovation only.

Hmm.

And that means that if basically, if, you know, the innovation really was didn't really go very far, and then it could cost the rest of the business a lot, that wasn't going to work out. So it's X% arising from the revenue generated from the innovation itself, up to twice the amount of the investment put in in the first place. So the idea then is, Anne, let's say we get to a point where a VC is knocking on our door, or we're knocking on theirs. One of the questions naturally they're going to ask is, this is your secret sauce, who wants it? And if we say, uh, well, not really us, then of course that's going to raise question marks for them. Whereas we can say we're on a path to owning it, and if we need to expedite that journey, we can. So the answer—

So when you say we're on a path to owning it, basically, if the VC— if I'm your VC and I say, brilliant, Susan, love what you're doing at Active Peers AI, and I say, great, I'm going to give you this amount of money, and then what do you do? You pay back the university or the government? Sorry, how does it work?

Yeah, so it's basically you're paying it to the university. Yeah, so then you're paying it up. So there is a cap. Yeah, there is a cap at which we can say, right, we're going to pay back all the money and then that's it, we own it and our relationship with the university is no longer— it's like, you know, not culturally but contractually.

Yeah.

So then we can hand on heart say to our VC then, yeah, we're all done and we own this now and that's that. And along the way, nobody else would have had a chance of getting it Um, because it was exclusive to us. That's the way that works.

So, okay, so I just want to be super clear. So when you've paid it back, basically it's still— obviously it's exclusive. You get the total IP, so the code, the algorithm, all that then gets transferred to your company, and the university cannot reuse that code in any shape or form, those algorithms, for another project whatsoever, or another one that is similar to what you're doing?

Well, you know, I mean, a line of code is a line of code. You're like, there's going to be a heading in there, for example, that they're going to use. But it just means that in essence, the IP is ours. And it's not that something similar but not the same could be, could be used in another way. And like, obviously, Anne, the ideal thing to happen at the end of it, which did thankfully, is that you go and you build on that, which we've done. So in essence, it's not like we have something that we're taking away that we hope the university will never use again.

Mm-hmm.

It's actually the opposite, is now we're looking to build on that which we've done, and we're into our second innovation partnership, which is basically everything I've told you again. We went for the feasibility and we put a new research team together based on a new direction. We're now in this, in the, in the phase of where we're building out that technology. Now we're back into market research phase. Everything I'm telling you is what we've seen, is what we do again. And success for the university will be where we would license. We would have a bigger license now the next time and we'll do it all again. Success for us is we will only take a license If we feel that it's useful in the marketplace.

So, and like, to make it very plain, then how much did all of this— like, when you say, like, you put in X amount, and with the 2 innovation partnerships, then how much are we talking about? Just so people understand, like, because you have to put money up front, right? That's the thing, you know. So that's when you go into this type of innovation partnership, you've got to keep your eyes wide open. I mean, do they ask you for all the money up front, the €25K in this case, or how does it work, Susan?

Just for, you know, the people who are here live with us and the audience, doesn't she know her stuff, this woman? Doesn't she know her stuff? Well, you do too.

That's why I'm like picking out some of those things because we have to make— I want to make it super clear.

Yeah, well, you know, you're right, Anne, because what a term we haven't used yet is cash flow. And cash flow is really, really important. And I remember like hearing at the time back in 2018, like €25,000, thinking— and this is €25,000 into an idea like this, you know, it's different to put Say $25,000 into a website that's some, you know, revenue generator, or $25,000 into your team. This is into an idea. So no, the answer is it wasn't upfront. It was spread over. Again, and you're a great woman, as you say, for using the phrase super clear. So I just want to be super clear, is this is a 2-year partnership, but it was over 3 calendar years.

Mm-hmm.

So we started in November and it went on until November 2 years later. So ultimately, it was split proportionally across those 2 years. So I think it was maybe €5,000 upfront the first year, the second year it was, let's say, €15,000, and then the final €5,000 the third year. So, and that is important from a cash flow point of view, it really, really, really is. And then also, let's stick with cash flow for a moment, also the licence then, we had a licence holiday in the first year because it was important as well that you know, is that what we took— or what, sorry, not what we took, what we licensed, we needed to take and then develop a value proposition around it. And they understand that that takes time and everything. So in the first year, you're probably not going to do a whole lot revenue-wise anyway.

Mm-hmm.

So then from there, the, um, then the license is, is then that then kicks into place. And then it's also, we agreed on the date then per year when that would be payable by. So again, from the point of view of cash flow, it's not per month or it's not per week. They don't knock on my door you know, saying what invoices did you send out and what part of them are this. So that's the way it works. And so overall, sorry, the first part of your question was how much?

Mm-hmm.

So the first innovation partnership, the total equivalent was €125,000. The second one was €189,000. So overall you're talking €315,000 there in total between the two. And of that €315,000, we will have in total, we will have had to put in approximately €65,000.

So it's really a very attractive proposition. I mean, when you think about it, because you do keep all the equity. Yes, so you do have to have cash flow, you do need to kind of have an idea, at least to be able to direct the research in a very intelligent way, and to be always matching, matching, because I love the way you talk. I think to everybody who's listening in, you can hear very clearly Susan's talking about, okay, what assumption are we testing? What are we testing? What are we testing? All the time being extremely extremely clear at each step of the way before kind of going any further. So it sounds like, it sounds like a dream come true. Let's just say if somebody was looking at this from the outside and they didn't know anything about it, say, wow, I really like the sound of that. Now, in practice, hmm, like, what would you have loved to have known before you went through this the first time? If you had that magic wand, what would have been helpful for you to know?

The key thing here, and this is different to probably anything you're going to hear on Anne's podcast and show, is this, is that let's say that we were dealing with a VC or a bank. Actually, well, let's go with a VC for a moment, or anybody involved in equity. Your objectives are totally aligned. Their profitability, their sales, their growth, their sustainable growth, they're selling the business. They're very, very aligned.

Yeah.

If you're in a bank, the objective of the bank is that they will get paid back on time.

Yeah.

The way in which they will get paid back on time is if you are profitable and if you're sales generating and if your cash flow matches the cycle.

Yeah.

When you're dealing with a university, they don't care about any of that stuff. So the one answer that I would say to you, Anne, the one thing is stakeholder management. And there is tools around this, like the RACI or, you know, the RACI matrix. There's— what I would say is, stakeholder management is different in this sort of a scenario. And like the shoe was on the other foot here, by the way, a couple of weeks ago when I was interviewing Anne. I was emceeing a session. Well, I was really interviewing her on behalf of everyone else, but one of the things that Anne says is when you're raising money is that you just have to think of your— when you're raising money from the people in question is that you treat them just like you would another customer. They have certain needs, they have certain wishes, they have certain barriers. And when it comes to somebody like a VC or angel, et cetera, like I say, your views there are aligned. The value proposition is different from a customer, but it's still commercial. But in a university, it is different. What they want is ease of bucketloads of administration. They want research capability. They want for you to present at a conference with findings of your innovation.

Mm.

They want to offer opportunities to their alumni or to their talent pipeline that's coming through. They want to showcase you from the point of view of an engagement between industry and university. They want a license. Did you hear any of that being cash revenue or growth or sustainability?

No, it's fascinating. It's fascinating.

That was a bit— so here I was, you know, on our Monday morning meetings, I was like, oh, you know, we're actually getting a potential customer here. And it's like, oh yeah, grand, grand.

Okay, now where are we at this point that we're going to talk about? That's Fascinating, I love it. So I want to catch a couple of questions here. So Susan is asking— another Susan— she's asking, is this model unique to Ireland or is this a regular occurrence for innovation partnerships?

So the term of the innovation partnership is indeed— when I say it's unique to Ireland, the way I'm describing it to you is. However, I can absolutely tell you that there is loads of ways, loads of ways that universities like to engage now with industry. And they set up models like this to do them. And generally, like, I'm— my office is based in TU Dublin, Technology University Dublin, based here in Grangegorman. But also I have spoken to Ulster University, for example, in the UK where I'm an associate lecturer. They don't do something exactly similar, but there's a lot of areas where they do like to collaborate with industry. So what I would say is, in order to find this type of entity, is reach out to a university in your area. And when I say your area, I mean your country. I mean, I could have done this right across the board, but you certainly could do this anywhere in the country. And there usually is someone maybe in a business development role in maybe a business school or maybe an industry collaboration sort of title. So the model that I'm telling you, the language I'm using is, yes, unique to Ireland, but not the idea. That certainly isn't unique to Ireland at all.

And so Kathy is saying, thank you, Susan, for your innovation in dealing with universities. I love that because it's important and I think it's And also, I would say thank you, Susan, in your innovation in explaining this, because it's— what strikes me is it's super fascinating what you've just explained about how this is not a commercial relationship per se. I mean, remember who you're talking to, like, and I suppose that's one of the key nuggets from this. Like, when you're talking to VCs, banks, and debt or equity people, they have a certain way of talking their own language and so on. And you all know that from being part of our podcast and to listening to our investors that we interview. But here, this is different. So I would, I would maybe liken it a little bit to complex sales process. So when you're working, for example, if you're a B2B company, and you're working with big corporates, you have to navigate that complex stakeholder management where some of the people may change, there's interdepartmental stuff, there can be rivalries, budgets are here, there, and everywhere. Signing the contract goes from one place to the other, can take 3 years to finalize before you actually sign a contract to be a supplier. Does this ring a bell with anybody? If you're B2B, if so, put it in the chat. So, you know, I think it's very fascinating when you say you got to get good at stakeholder analysis. So I think it's like with everything, you remember who it is you're working with, what's in it for them. And just as you're saying, the university wants the prestige, they want a good piece of research, they want this to further their own knowledge. base. They won't have to add another license because that's having IPs and developing this new tech is part of their IP knowledge base to attract new students and new funders themselves. How you can give an exciting opportunity to their talent, how you could become a case study, you know, how you can then speak and attract other people to apply for this. It's a very interesting virtuous cycle that's quite different. And so Susan's coming back and she's saying she loves the concept. However, in the US, in the USA, innovation partnerships are certainly more political and the IP is not often guaranteed. So she's going to check out more in it. And okay, what does WIFM mean? I'm not too sure if that is the name, the term that Susan's sharing.

What's in it for me?

What's in it for me? There we go. Thanks, thanks, thank you very much. And So we had another question from Kathy. She wanted to know, this is more with the money side of things in the innovation partnership, do they also charge VAT? Do they charge tax?

Yes.

She says she got involved a few years ago. Due to the delay in delivery, the inordinate time spent by us educating the college team, I pulled out because there was no clarity on the IP. They wanted to own the license, and it was a bitter Experience, comments. Yeah, I'm sorry you went through that, Cathy.

So to answer the first question about VAT is because it's an educational organization, they don't deal with VAT at all. And so the thing is, you can get— on the other hand, the government does. So I remember one day getting a bill of— I can't— was it— it was €5,000. Yeah, it was €5,000. And I remember getting a bill saying like, what the hell is this? And it was basically, it was the reverse VAT on the in-kind labour. So because we were putting in €25,000 worth of labour, which by the way, you can't just say, oh yes, of course we're doing that. They needed backup on the parts of wage slips and everything, which was fine.

Yeah.

But I remember getting this bill of like €5,254 or whatever it was, and I remember having to pay it. And I was thinking, but sure, how could we have to pay this? And it was because we were making a contribution that way. And, you know, the universities, and this was, she'll want to get it back. Now I'm actually familiar with Kathy's company.

Yeah.

'Cause I've met her before and I know Kathy is also in an education side of things.

Yeah.

But if you're VAT exempt, then of course you don't get that back. Or if a part of your business is non-consultancy or whatever. So that can have a really, you know, it can have a big impact.

Big impact, yeah.

Cash flow-wise as well as real-wise. Yes, clarity around the IP is of course very important and the understanding understanding of what does success look like. Now, by the way, sometimes asking that question can be really great. If I asked Anne, what does success look like for Global Investor, not alone would she be able to tell me, she already has. And she probably has told you as well of what that actually means. So it's great when someone knows what they want, but what if they don't? So a couple of questions that I would prompt you to maybe think about if people are unclear about it is, you know, maybe things like, And how can I help you achieve what you want when it comes to thinking about when this innovation partnership might end in 2 years? Like, where do you want to be by then? And could this help you? That's when you hear things like, well, it'd be great if you could be showcased as an example. That's when it would be— this would be great to be factored into research. Another thing is, and it only depends when you have the relationship with them, is if I was to say, Anne, like, how can I help you look good in front of your boss?

Because I want to— Exactly, yeah.

So how can I help you look good? Because my skin is already in the game here. So for me to help you is not gonna— it's not gonna be anything extra. Or, and then sometimes saying another question that I think is a great question. I ask this of everybody I interview as well, is if this was a real success at the end, what would've happened?

Yeah.

And that's when I heard a license, repeat business, you could say. That's what I was hearing about all the things. So sometimes if you ask, what does success look like? It feels a bit woolly and, you know, dreamy and that kind of thing, or else they don't know at all. If you ask me that question in most situations, I'll be able to tell you because you have to have vision as a CEO. Not everyone thinks like us. So they're the 3 questions that I would ask, and particularly the one, how can I make you look good in front of your boss? You also then hear, who is the boss? Really, really. I'm not doing this in order to be manipulative or anything else. A quote by Zig Ziglar is that if you help people get what they want, they'll help you get whatever you want. So that's all it is, is understanding what you want and how can I help you? Simple as that.

I think I want to pick apart one of the points that you mentioned earlier on stakeholder analysis and understanding who's the boss of boss and how you can make each other look good. You mentioned a tool called RACI. Now, for some people who are not familiar with that, what is that? What does RACI stand for?

Okay, some people call it RACI as well, so they might say, I've heard of RACI but not RACI. I mean, it depends on your accent, really, doesn't it? Okay, so let me take you through RACI. This, by the way, can be very much used for an internal stakeholder management tool as well, and I'll Just to give you a separate case study for it when I'm finished with this, that can very much apply to funding. So R is for responsible. So for example, today Anne was responsible for setting up the Zoom link, organizing for us to be here, getting me prepped for what I needed to be, etc. So R is for responsible. They're fundamentally where the buck stops. A then is for accountable.

Mm-hmm.

So I was accountable. If I didn't turn up, she was going to be ringing me at, you know, 10 or 4:30 or 5:30, whatever time zone you're in.

She would have—

Anne would have been saying to me, I was, you know, she would have had to hold me accountable for being here. So, A is accountable. This is somebody who says they're going to do something, you're expecting that they will do it, and they take ownership of being accountable for whatever they would do. So that's A for accountable. Then you have C for consulted. So consulted is all of you, you who's tuning in here today. By the way, we didn't practice this in advance. I'm thinking— It's brilliant.

See, that's why she's so brilliant. I can tell she does her stuff.

Go for it. We consulted with you through— and I'd fill out the same form as you did, by the way, coming in here. Anne knows where you've all come from. So you were consulted, let's say, from the point of view of joining through LinkedIn, or maybe you received Anne's newsletter like I did, or maybe that you heard from her directly, or maybe you're part of the Global Investor Community. So you were consulted, and as a result, you've decided to take action, and your action is being here live. or listening to this as a podcast. And then I is informed. So anybody who knows about this are people who are informed. But let's say Sinead Crowley, for example, commented on my LinkedIn to say, really sorry I can't be here but would love to listen back. Kelly Hoey, she retweeted the session, or she retweeted saying that this is going to be amazing, the conversation between us. They're people who were informed. So that is— so you can see RSAI is that the lower level you go down, the less work and thus responsibilities is on that partner.

Yeah.

Or on that person. So now let me give you a very clear example of when it comes to funding. So typically, typically I might be the one responsible for my business. I'm responsible for keeping the staff funded. I'm responsible for leading the vision and I'm responsible for the productivity on the part of everybody involved. My senior leadership team might be accountable, one in finance, one in marketing, one in technology, C for consulting, I may need to keep, like, you know, my fund, my investors on board, or I might need to make sure that my, you know, my university partner is kept up to date, etc. And I for inform might be my newsletter going out.

Mm-hmm.

However, when it comes to funding, maybe I'm the one actually that is now responsible for funding. So I have a separate RACI. And instead, now somebody else, maybe my CFO becomes the de facto CEO. Maybe they go from being an accountant, from an A to an R while I'm focusing on the funding journey. And the reason that this can be really, really helpful is that we kind of understand who really takes ownership or responsibility, who is accountable and for what, who's consulted and where we're asking them to do something, and who literally we just want to keep informed but we're not expecting anything from them. When you understand who's who and what's what, it clarifies things.

Yeah.

It takes out that kind of ambiguity of, Well, I thought you were responsible. Well, I thought I was accountable. Well, I thought— well, but you're— I always come to you when I have a question. Yeah, but I'm working on funding at the moment, like, go to him instead. It can be very helpful. And I heard that particular case study, I can't take any credit for it. I interviewed a lady, and you probably know her, Sherry Cato, in the UK.

I don't.

She's not there now, but she's originally a Canadian investor, and she's done amazing things really and truly amazing things. And I interviewed her for an Access to Finance conference earlier on this year. And she was the person that said, having a RACI when you have— having a RACI generally is a good idea, but she says, when things change, when you're on a funding journey, having a RACI to establish how things have changed and will change back post can be super helpful. So that's one thing.

Love it. That's very interesting strategy-wise, like, because when you're on the funding journey and I'm like working with some founders directly on their funding journeys, I'm like, okay, you need to start blocking out your diary and saying, this is when you are not available. Your team needs to know that you're switching tack, that you're going to be putting your time, your energy, your focus on the funding journey and the whole funding process. And therefore, your focus and time is going to be on meeting potential investors, on answering their questions, on getting out there and identifying who are the next ones you need to be talking to, etc., looking through the term sheets, etc., etc., etc. And you need to block out that time. And as you say, for that specific time period, very, very clear who on the team is now going to be responsible for certain things that you were normally doing, or accountable— who do they go to during this period to free you up? And I think that's a really good piece of advice. So I have loads of questions coming in as well from people who had registered in advance. So Alison wanted to know, what is the best way to build the relationship with institutions that can build your product? Do you do that before having funding, or like, you know, so this is the time of when would you reach out to a potential university for this type of partnership?

So the mechanism to do that can be something like— I find now the universities in Ireland, there's a whole body behind them now called KTI, Knowledge Transfer Ireland, and that can be a touchpoint of doing so. But I'm conscious obviously that you have a very international audience, and so there could be something equivalent. The time at which to reach out to a university is when you have an idea which has some sort of shape and also has some sort of testing, whether it's market testing, usability testing, not as something that's in your own head. Now, if you really want, you know, a very practical example here, check out the Innovation Partnership Feasibility Study application form from Enterprise Ireland. If you were to never use them, if you're based like Susan is in the US, or you're based outside, at least then you'll see the types of questions that are asked there so that you know the type of thing that you're likely to be expected. What I found from talking to universities about this in retrospect, and this is very pertinent to this audience, is typically women leave it too late. Not too late as in it can't be done, but they have too many eyes, too many, you know, dots— you know the phrase I'm trying to come up with.

Dots and the T's. They're very busy doing other things. They're juggling too many many balls in the air at the same time, I suppose.

Yeah. And also feel that they should have like maybe revenue generated, they should have a prototype of it. Actually having a very embryonic conversation can be very fruitful and instructive. And they, they're used to people ringing and saying, I thought of something there last night, and wouldn't it be great? And wouldn't you be very lucky if I brought it to you? You know, so they typically will say, okay, come back with a business model canvas maybe, or something else like that. So it's okay to go at an early stage. What they don't want is someone saying, what money can you give me? You know, Susan, you brought up the point there, you know, what's in it for me? Naturally, an institution is going to ask the same. And of course, a VC is going to ask the same, a bank's going to ask the same. Anyone, of course, would. Even if you were to approach Anne to be interviewed on this, she's also going to ask, well, what's in it for the community?

Yeah.

So just bear in mind that something needs to be formed and some sort of outside of your own head sort of insight. But it doesn't have to be fully formed. In fact, that is where the gold of the relationship can really be mined.

Yeah, because you want to co-build it, well, build it together. I mean, you're just going to get the research brains and the resources behind your idea and stuff that you need to test. So, you know, of course it doesn't have to be fully formed because you're going to be discovering and building as well as you go along. And I do think that's very good advice because, you know, often we women can tend to, you know, self-opt out or do it a bit too late or think everything needs to be perfect and we need to be further along. And honestly, I'm guilty of that myself. I mean, hands up myself. So I'm, you know, I'm not saying in general. I know that I've been guilty of that too and getting stuck in the perfectionism wheel. So I think it's really good advice that you're sharing that like, okay, it doesn't have to be perfect. You don't have to be 100% ready. And in fact, it's interesting when I've interviewed other investors, one Samantha Gerald-Salmi, she's from Elia Partners in France, which is a deep tech VC, right? So they invest in your type of AI-based companies in Europe, and she said the same thing. She's like, start building a relationship with me early on before you need the money, before you need the contact. Start building that relationship. And I thought that's really just— I'm tying it into the advice that you've shared as well. And so we have another question from Vicki. So Vicki wants to know, what types of projects are most likely to be considered by university for this type of partnership?

So the first innovation partnership was primarily around education. It was around, you know, knowledge sharing. It wasn't deep tech. And subsequently what we went on to build wasn't— this one is, but that one wasn't. So it was something of an educational nature. Naturally enough, you know, ones with a lot of technology, of course, they're going to be pretty much interested in that. But Again, what I would say is think about what they would want. Are they looking for, you know, really scalable businesses or something else like that? Well, not really. As in, not that they don't, not that they're not interested in it, but they're not a VC and they're not looking for unlimited. They're not looking to say, are you going to be going into a unicorn? What they— maybe if I could give you this type of parameter.

Hmm.

Will this extend the knowledge? Is there an interesting research project in this for students? And by the way, when I say a student, the person who went on to work on this, one of them had just finished his PhD, one of them had just finished his master's. So it became the— and it was their job, and this was such a big benefit. It was their job to recruit the talent as well, not ours. And to be like, they had access to a talent pool. And bear in mind, like, the people who were being recruited, the people who were recruiting them, our PI, our principal investigator, had been their lecturer. It's like you're talking about a 3-year interview or a 4-year interview. And then in the second partnership, we had one person who had just finished her PhD and another person who was just finished her master's. So what they, what they're interested in is projects that are of interest to them. So typically what Knowledge Transfer Ireland, or the organization that you would deal with in the university, what they will do is they will map your interest to that school. So in our case, it was an education school the first time. The second time, it is one with more artificial intelligence and sentiment analysis and data and analytics, etc. But it certainly wasn't solely deep tech because I wasn't at those races the first time around. So to answer your question—

Did you know how to frame it at that point? Or you knew kind of how to say this is an education piece and then afterwards obviously you've been further down the road so then you were more easily to say, okay, now we want this piece of stuff and it should be over in this part of the university? Or were they able— do they guide you and say, okay, now for the next next part, you should be talking over here. How does that work?

So the short answer to your question is the latter. It was the latter. But this I would also say in the whole idea of risk sharing, or, you know, when you bring equity into your business, or like I've been down the road of a business partnership as well. And in our case, I would say the same is you have to stop thinking that you have to come up with all the answers. And as a CEO or a business owner, you often have to be the one with all the answers. You have to answer your clients' questions, you have to answer your staff's questions, you have to keep your ear to the ground and come up with the ideas. And you might foster an idea and a culture of innovation and where people bring ideas to you. But I found certainly is that when I started being involved in these types of partnerships is it was far more important that you asked pointed questions that people automatically said, yes, here you should go and talk to. Because if I acted like I was typically doing, And I wouldn't have known it. I wouldn't have known, like, where should this go? So I turned those Monday morning meetings very— and now they're Thursday morning meetings— but I turned those very much into information gathering questions where I became very hungry to know what I didn't know I didn't know. And rather, I used to be threatened by that. I used to be threatened. And typical economist, you're trying to gather data all the time to see what are the known unknowns and how do you keep your ears to the ground and being afraid of them, you know, mitigating risk. Whereas instead, when you're in an environment like that and when you're starting to work with people who know more about their area than you do, and you can either feel vulnerable and kind of under attack, or, okay, I need to upskill myself now in Python, right? Don't do that anyway for a start. But instead, and I'll give you a practical way of which I overcame that, but instead of being hungry to discover what you don't know and discover how other people can be stronger than you. And just on that tech point, by the way, I discovered something very, very important that has really paid dividends over the years. And when you're dealing with very technical people, I'm going to take a cynical route first. They can pull the wool over your eyes with, you know, with stuff and just code and things like that. Or else you can feel inadequately prepared to talk to them because they talk and they use a lot of algorithms— or sorry, not algorithms, acronyms.

Acronyms.

Acronyms. And I'm used to this from the finance world because the finance industry does it as well.

Yep.

And then, so, and being somebody that set up a financial training business, I'm heightened with my awareness around how they do that. So the other thing is, of course, technical people can be very expensive in terms of, if you know what you want to build, they'll go and they'll build it and then they'll test it and then that's fine. But what if you don't know? And then they look at you expectantly and say, well, this is what you said you wanted, isn't it?

Yeah.

What I discovered, and this is down to timing as well, Anne, going back to something you mentioned at the beginning, is there's a beautiful world out there now of no-code and low-code. And what you can do is you can use these types of apps. And I'll give you very specific examples of building something and saying, this is what I think I want it to look like, or this is what I want it to do. And then they take that and they can build it into the platform. This became my primary form of communication with developers to literally the meeting I had today at 1 o'clock with one of them. So I'll give you an example, a very recent example. We were trying to build in a timer into when the meeting algorithm happens, and let's say I match with you. What we found then, one of the things we found in our tests was, it's all right, Anne, for you and me, we've been, you know, doing this networking and online networking for 100 years. But what about if you don't really know how to transfer knowledge between the two? It would be great if there was a prompt along the way.

Hmm.

So anyway, what they came back with was a timer, but it looked It didn't look right, even though it was technically what I said. I was saying, how do I describe it? So what I did was I went and I actually built the idea of what I had in mind on a Google— sorry, on a PowerPoint slide with an animation. So then I said, this is what I mean. And then of course, then they went to— not alone did they understand what I meant, they found something much bigger. I built the first iteration of the app, the functionality that we built on Bubble, B-U-B-B-L-E, like Bubble, like blow. Bubble is a great one. It's a really, really great tool as well, where you can just like put stuff in and make it work that you don't need any code. Another example is we use a data management tool that does great visualizations with low-code on Airtable. We have automations that we've built on Zapier. How do we make things connect in between the two? That's what I mean by low-code or no-code is they're kind of, they operate on the basis of if-then loops. If I, like, if I want this microphone to jump up, And then I'm going to switch the camera off. And when you can actually use those tools, they're brilliant for 2 reasons. One, they'll help you communicate your ideas in a language that they can understand. Number 2, particularly, you can test it with UX testers, user experience testers, and see, do you like this? Do you understand what this button is supposed to do? And then now you can have a much better relationship with your developers where they say, A, we know what you want, and B, we know what you want because you've tested out with other people. And that, that was really transformational in that communication process along the way.

Oh, I so identify with that because I know early on we had tech partners and I was completely a tech virgin and all this kind of stuff, talking to tech guys. And really, I did get taken for a ride. I really did. I did work with one agency and it was not their fault per se, and I really can't say it was. It was I didn't know what the hell I was doing. So I was asking them to do stuff, they built it, and then at the end of the day, it just didn't match what I needed. I literally threw a lot of money down the toilet and had to start again. And so I've been doing a lot of the, uh, the no-code, as you— that you said, or low-code, and it really does help. So, um, you know, I, I really strive— and you're right, we are in a fantastic time where we can do that, where we can test it. And there's all lots of like Balsamiq, whatever, there's loads of ways that you can do, um, lots of tools for you to kind of do it. I am a big fan of Weebly. I create my own websites, like I do a lot of stuff there before putting it into the hard code into the main one, you know. So, and people say, oh my god, your websites are beautiful, oh wow. And I'm like, yeah, I did them all myself. They're like, no! And I'm like, yeah, I did it, you know. And they're like, what? So yeah, you know, get as much as— and I totally say that with a caveat. I'm not suggesting that you do every— try to do everything. That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm saying though, agree with you, it's a great tool. So Jill Holtz, who's on the call here, she sent in a question which is like, what's your top tip for starting the process and framing the relationship for the innovation partnership? So, okay, you've identified them, how do you kick off that process and frame it?

Okay, so hi, Gill, lovely to be here with you too. Right, so first of all, you need to think through— and the university wants a research project that's innovative, as distinct from a commercial one. So if you're going— let's say you go into university and say, I have a great idea about how we can generate 10 times more sales than we are at the moment, they're going to say, what's the research? What's the meat of the research that we can ask people to— like, what are the questions that you need to answer? And then they say, well, we kind of don't really have research really to do, we can do it already. They're going to say no. So the thing I would say here, Gill, is that it is really important that it's a research project with whereby there are questions that currently aren't answered.

Mm-hmm.

And the beautiful thing about that is the Innovation Partnership Feasibility Process that covers about 3 months, around about 3 months. It's now gone up to €9,000. It covers 3 months of a researcher's time to simply test that out. So maybe it is, there's loads of questions that you have about even there, the tools that I'm talking about, maybe you want to automate a process or something else like that. And you wouldn't know by the end of that, you might just have what you want out of it, which is, look, we can do all this with pre-existing knowledge and tools and automations. And if so, brilliant. If that is so much time and energy and money, it's fabulous. You might get exactly what you want out of that. And of course, then what the government doesn't— what the government gets is you may be moving along in joining the dots together, and then it doesn't have to go any further in, let's say, a bigger partnership. So first of all, I would say is— and I know Jill's business is based in Ireland— I would say is I would look into the Innovation Partnership Feasibility Study. That's where I would start. And then secondly, I would reach out to Knowledge Transfer Ireland so that you can get in contact with researchers who might be interested in your area. Now, the next thing—

Just to say that, just to remind our audience that I will be sharing all of the resources that Susan's mentioning in the podcast show notes. We'll have links to everything she's mentioned. I've been sharing some of the names in the chat as we've been going along as well. So keep going, Susan.

Perfect. Now, in terms of the frame, here is again, you have to turn this on its head, is that the way in which this really needs to be framed is what are the questions that you seek to answer? That's what I mean is as CEOs, and Gill, you're one, like as a CEO, you think, okay, I need to have the answers. No, you don't. If you have the answers, it's not innovation because you know the answers already. This really needs to be framed around, let's say, 5 key research questions. Like in our case, it was, could an algorithm be built to match A with B? What technology did we need in order to make sure that— we coined the term social distance long before it was what it came to be. Social distance online actually is how quickly we trust each other.

Mm-hmm.

So Anne and I have met in person, and there's a lot of things we share in common, a lot of networks we share in common. Both of our names are often brought up up in similar conversations, our social distance is quite close. On the other hand, if I come across somebody who I don't know at all, that can be quite wide. And when you're trying to facilitate trust on an online marketplace, which is the first iteration of what we were doing, we needed to figure out ways in which that we could cultivate social— we could build social trust between the two parties.

Mm-hmm.

So it was like, what ways, what technologies, or what nuances needed to be in the platform to make that happen? Those were the types of questions I did not have the answer answers. And rather than feeling weakened by that, that was ultimately the proposal's strength, because that then was going to give somebody a research project that could further the knowledge of the university in order to build out ultimately the answer that we wanted to have.

I love it, I love it. And so we're kind of coming close to our hour, so I want to invite our live audience to feel free to continue asking your questions here in the chat box to Susan, because isn't she a of information. I told you to grab onto your seats for this because seriously, Susan, it's always a pleasure having you on board. And Susan, the other Susan in the States, she's saying awesome because it is awesome, everything that you're sharing. So I would love now just any kind of key advice you would give to women entrepreneurs just about funding in general. So you've been talking about the innovation partnerships. Have you done any other types of funding to fund this, your company for ActivePeers AI and tell us a bit more about that.

Sure. So I have, yes, I have been involved in a partnership where I co-founded a business with another person. And so we did that on the basis of 50/50. And then I went on then and I bought her out. And, you know, I remember back in those early days, the earliest days of the business, the first one, I was never thinking like, I never wanted to part with equity, never wanted to part with equity, and, you know, all that sort of thing. And this is my baby and all that sort of thing. And to be honest, that was actually quite an immature view because for a start, when you think about equity as actually risk sharing, it just changes the nature of it. Like, do you want to hold on to the risk of all of your business all the time? And the second thing I would say is this whole thing about your baby is— it's the wrong language, Anne, to be using.

Yeah, it's too—

yeah, it's not the same.

It's not.

And I'm not, you know, I'm not a mother. I work with thousands of teenagers every year in a different business that we run. But the reality is, is that if we can bring any of our businesses to the stage of where we can sell them, what does that mean? Well, number one, if we're selling a business, it's because somebody else wants to buy it because they want to take it in a different direction, possibly to a much greater level.

Yeah.

So that's a good thing. You know, that's a good thing. And I think one should be open-minded to selling selling a business later on. The second thing is, of course, I understand that people may want to, you know, sell a business to take money off the table, and that's totally fine too. Maybe you want to do that for lifestyle reasons, or maybe it's to put resources into a new thing. So that's what I would say about funding and attitudes that we have, is that, okay, number one, really raising money is sharing, is risk sharing. Number 2 is if you bring new resources into the company, or maybe you give the company in exchange for resources in other stages, as long as the values are aligned. And again, I'm back to my stakeholder analysis there. Number 3, I have a different view of this probably to anyone else that I know, is that the process of actually applying for anything when it comes to these— let's say if it's grants in particular, or a shareholders agreement that you might have with your business partner, partner, et cetera, is rather than see the paperwork as a barrier, is see this as free consultancy. Because the questions that you're asked on those forms are probably really worthwhile. So for example, in our case, in the innovation partnership, they're asking us like, what were our technical milestones going to be over the 2 years? And it's so important that we had those.

Mm-hmm.

And if you don't have a piece of paper that's pushing you to document them, like no one walks into their office one day and says, do you know what we should really do now? We should really have a good long chat about our technical milestones, 'cause I have nothing else to do on Thursday. No one does that. So, you know, we do what's put in front of us. So in those forms, the innovation partnership form is 27 pages.

Oh my gosh.

Some of those are like, you know, name and address and that, you know, we needed the CV of the principal investigator, like nothing major. But by the end of it, it was 54 pages long because I filled up every spot in there because I took that form as basically a strategic guidance document. And by the time it came to being assessed on it, I was bulletproof. And I don't mean that I had all the answers, I just knew the context of every question. And then in those assessments, then when I was being interviewed about like the technical milestones or whatever, I just knew my stuff. I really, really, really did.

Yeah.

And part of it is not necessarily having the right answers, but having the narrative behind knowing your stuff or knowing where you're wrong, knowing where there was a gap.

Yeah.

And just being able to say, I actually, I never thought of that, very glad you brought that up, I considered that, or I never considered that in that context, but actually now that you say it, it does link to something else. So see the forms, see the barriers that's put in front of you as consultancy that is basically honed, and enjoy it and embrace all that it has to offer.

I love that. I think that's a fantastic piece of advice because, you know, often when people think about filling in the forms, and I've done that in the past. And, you know, we've actually built a course to help people on how to look for grants on our Investor Academy. And our expert there, she said the same thing. She's like, look, when you're filling in those forms, yes, it's a pain. It really is a pain to go into all the detail, but it really makes you think. And the whole good thing is you need to take the time to fill it in correctly. And guess what? Once you've set aside some time to think about it, just like you described with the milestones, then you have that thinking and those key— that key piece of information that you can reuse in your pitch deck, in presentations to clients, in product development. So it's going to ask you— what you're basically saying is note the questions because those questions, they've been thinking about them very, very carefully. They know exactly what information they need from you in order to further what you're doing. And that's really what it is. You're saying like, get clarity around the questions, really understand them. And what I love about in your advice is like you said, you gave— you put a lot of time and effort into it. And it's true that it can, and I would say it's worth investing it for your time and effort into those forums for the grants, for the innovation partnerships that really make sense for your business. Like sometimes you have to apply a couple of times even for funding for, you know, EU money or other kinds of funding you have to apply if it's a grant-based thing. And also in some of those instances, you have to pay the exp— you know, pay upfront for the expense for consulting, for team, and then put in their salaries and get the money back. But you have to pay upfront. So again, this cash flow in, you know, issue comes in. So I just love the way that you're framing it and that you are bulletproof, because that's very, very important that Well, not bulletproof in the sense that you really knew your stuff. That's what you're saying. Know your stuff, know your answers, and know, and if you get surprised by something, it's fine. Say it like, okay, I didn't, hadn't thought about it. And don't, again, it's back to don't feel you have to know everything. That's really cool. So what are your favorite resources for fundraising? 'Cause we're wrapping up now, we're in the final stages of this conversation. So anybody who's got burning questions, pop them in the chat while we ask them.

So your favorite resources on funding or on just this type of innovation Okay, so, you know, obviously I know where I am and I know the audience that I have and I know the lady that's interviewing me, but I do have to give a lot of kudos to Global Investor because it really is— what I like about— can we just pretend that Anne isn't here for a moment, right?

No.

What I really like about Global Investor is that it does what it says on the tin, and Anne is really, really passionate about this. And from the first time that I met her, which is quite a long time ago, ago now in the grand scheme of things. Like, what I really like about Global Investor is that it practices what it preaches and it is very practical, and it's also designed to bring real stories to real people who are interested in really making a difference. So first and foremost, I would mention Global Investor. My second one would be the forms that you fill out, let's say, for these types of applications or whether it's grants, a resource that not a lot of people know. Maybe Susan, you might have heard of them, is Hello Alice. It's actually a piece of AI that gathers together all that is available on the internet around entrepreneurship, and it's quite country-specific. So there's a lot of like grants and information and so on there, but it's the questions that I'm looking for, the questions that people might ask. The third thing, people might be surprised at this, but shows like Shark Tank, Dragon's Den, etc., if you really listen to how people are being questioned there, that can also give you a very rich source. And you can see the reactions of the investors as well. I mean, you know, they're— of course, I know they're done for media, but they're not really dress rehearsals either. They are the real deal. And then finally, I would also like to mention the importance of communities.

Yeah.

For example, you know, and I know we're both familiar with Awaken Hub, but we also, like here in Ireland, H-BAN, which is the Halo Angel Business Network, for example. The British Business Bank is one that's in the UK. And there's lots and lots and lots more. or right around the world is just being part of communities where— and I used this technique when we started exporting at the beginning— is if you be around people who just do it, they don't question if. You know, I always, when I started exporting first, I wanted to be around people who were doing business internationally the same way I would put milk into my coffee. They didn't question if, they just did. And they were going to New York and coming back from Hong Kong and doing this. And now I'm the one saying things like that is if when you surround yourself with people who don't question if, they just do, that can really be helpful. So building your tribe is, to borrow a phrase from Ms. Ravanona herself. Yeah, building your tribe is very important, and being around people who just do this, they don't question it, is very important as well. They're my top 4.

I love it. I absolutely love it. And so how can listeners connect with you, Susan? Because you're on different— many different airways and in different places. So where are the best places to reach out to you?

Okay, so whatever works for you. Um, I am on LinkedIn, LinkedIn for a start under my name. I am on Instagram under my name again, so you'll find me there. We're also— I love Twitter, so I'm @SusanHayes_. Again, search me by any of my names, you'll find me there. Thank you. But also as well, we have a newsletter. It's at savvywomenonline.com, and that is where we have various different— we have our podcast and we have various other all of the articles and any events that I'm involved in, you'll know about it there too. So, and of course, Facebook as well. You'll find us on Facebook under various different elements, but Susan Hayes, The Positive Economist, is how you'll find me there. But I know there's fewer people, so I'm on any— anywhere where you are, I'm likely to be too. That's basically it.

I love it. And so how can we put more fun into funding, Susan? Because that's the motto for this podcast.

Yeah, I mean, I I think, Anne, it's down to enjoying it. And a phrase that I often use, which is, if you win, you'll be successful. If you lose, you will be wise, is enjoying it first of all. And enjoying the fact that most people— another phrase that I love is, somebody would love your bad days. On the days that you've been turned down, let's say for funding, or on the days when you're writing a 27-page application, so many people are in jobs where they don't want to be, or they're in situations where they'd love to have the opportunity that you have, even though you might say, but should they have them too? Yeah, but they may not see it that way. Number one is enjoy it, is enjoy the fact that you're doing it. And so few people— I mean, I know your statistics about 2% of women get funding, but let's just think about how many people apply for it and how many people are too afraid to do it or don't have a business model to do it, or maybe it doesn't occur to them. The second thing I would say is that see the learnings in any, you know, quote-unquote failures. is that's what they are, learning opportunities. I've had, you know, failed business ideas, I've had failed applications, I've had all those. But like, if I didn't have them, I'm not trying hard enough.

Yeah.

I've had all sorts of those things. And the third thing I would say about the fun into funding is that, and I know this is just so your ethos, is support each other too.

Yeah.

Be mindful of where you're putting your money when you choose to choosing your suppliers or, you know, the causes that you support or the things that you volunteer to do. And let's just all enjoy it together and live each other up. And also remember, we are standing on the shoulders of giants, and our shoulders need to be a comfortable place for other people to stand on ours.

I love it. And actually, I'm glad you mentioned about, like, being mindful of wherever you put your money, because at Global InvestHer, we created the InvestHer directory of female founders. If you're a company that has been founded or co-founded, um, with a woman, apply to be seen on our directory because we want consumers to find you, we want investors to find you. It's free, and it's all about that visibility, you know. And basically the whole point is like, if you're going to spend your money, spend it with another woman entrepreneur. Like, we have, we have the power to actually get more funding. The best— and I've said it before— the best form of funding is a paying customer. And then you put the nuance, a profitable paying customer. And I absolutely love that, Susan. So that is the best, um, the best way of funding. Any last messages you want to share with our audience today?

Uh, my, my final one is that When it comes to watching other people and how they do it, is there's lessons in everybody, you know. Maybe you're here today and you're thinking about, you know, how does Anne ask questions, because I have to interview somebody later, or what about like even the show notes. If you're thinking of like, what could I do with these show notes, is book an hour in your diary tomorrow and just take the time between— basically it should feel like a 1, well, a 1 to 2. between you and me and Anne, of where maybe you listen back to this, maybe you go through the show notes yourself, is there is— you don't have to wait for anything, you know. I know I'm all quotes now, but here's another one, is don't wait for the perfect moment, take the moment and make it perfect. Is take what you've got and run with it. Don't wait for anything. And yes, there are times that things need to work out, or there's a time that you need— maybe your business plan needs to be more developed, or you need to have, you know, 1,000 more users or whatever. But there's lots you can do today. And don't feel like you're being held back by time. Time's on your side. So just go and take action and just see the abundance in what's available to you, whether it is the low-code tools that I mentioned, or as I say, the show notes to this podcast, or the directory at Global Investor, or all of the shows that are there from Shark Tank or The Profit or Dragon's Den Online. It's all there. Just go for it.

It's all there for the taking. I absolutely love it. My God. Our other Susan, who's on as a guest here at the moment, And she, our Susan Taffer, one of our members, I always call her like Susanisms because like you, she spouts these quotes and they come out of her and it's just natural. I'm like, oh my God, that's so quotable. Oh my God, it's another Susanism. So I'm going to dub you another Susan with Susanisms because really, I think if you— honestly, what a phenomenal wealth of information, knowledge, tips, experience.

Thank you.

And all given with heart, with savvy. You're not called the Savvy Woman for nothing. And thank you for being so generous with us and with our audience today, Susan. I really hope and feel that— well, I certainly do feel that, you know, anybody who's listening to this podcast or rewatching this on YouTube is going to go away saying, wow, that was good, you know, input of my time into listening to Susan because I've learned so much about, okay, when I should go for this type of innovation partnership or, you know, innovation grant with the university, you know, whether it's right for me. Oh, I better be thinking about stakeholder analysis. I better be thinking carefully about the research questions, what it is that we want to try and find out. Know what success looks like for both sides of the table, so for yourself and also for the university, and then nurture those nurture those relationships as you go through the process before. Don't forget your cash flow. And so many goodness, so many resources. So they're just some of a quick summary just listening to you, Susan. So thank you so much. Jill is saying, brilliant, love the Susanisms. I'm gonna make the other Susan jealous. She's— I'm sure she's smiling listening in and watching us here. If you have any comments, please give some feedback live to Susan, because I love our guests to see their, their, their feedback live from the audience. So my Susan Taffer is saying yes, she's jealous, because now I'm saying you've got Susanisms as well. So thank you so much. You know, tell, tell her what you thought of this podcast here in the chat box live. And we will be broadcasting this as a podcast very, very shortly on InvestHer Podcast. So check it out. You'll have the show notes and links to all the resources that Susan has shared today. And I also want to give a shout out because we've been talking about one of your things, but I do have to talk about this, Susan. So like Susan is an economist, she does incredible things, she's an advocate, and you've just brought out this book in partnership with— and people will see it on the screen— in partnership with the Chartered Financial Accountants Institute Association of Ireland. So it is like basically a textbook for students in secondary school and high school to learn about how to manage their money, to learn how to invest. Oh, it's incredible, and I cannot recommend it. Like, just so you know who you're talking to, she's an amazing lady. So I'll be putting the link into that as well. So if you've got children in secondary school in Ireland, they're lucky, they're going to get a copy. And I'm already proposing to other governments in the world through my work on the W20 to copy this work, to, to take inspiration from Susan Susan's work and CFA with this workbook because I think it's fabulous. So there you go, Susan Taffer, she says she wants a copy. So you send me the link where people can order this as well, Susan, because I think it's on Amazon, isn't it? Or will be?

It's only going to be— at the moment it's only available through our site because of the nature of how the partnership worked with Chartered Financial Analysts. But yeah, certainly we'll make sure and get one to Susan for sure.

Ah, wonderful. Fantastic. So thank you so much, Susan, for being with us today. Thank you for sharing your wisdom, your energy, your positive— wow, you certainly are the positive economist, the positive entrepreneur, and just an all-around awesome lady. So thank you so much for being with us. And for those of you who are listening in, next week we will be having a new guest, Anna Raptis from Amplifica, which is a VC fund in Mexico. Mexico, who are on a mission to fund more women entrepreneurs. So if you want to hear about what's happening in Latin America and a VC fund who's really walking the talk, you know, tune in for our funding conversation next week. Thank you so much, Susan, and thanks everybody for being with us.

Thank you very much indeed, Anne, and every best wish to everybody.

Take care. Bye-bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to InvestHer Podcast. Don't miss more Great funding tips and insights by subscribing to the podcast on Apple or your favorite podcast host. And while you're there, I'd love you to rate and review the show. We'd love to hear from you. So if you'd like to send in some questions, interact with our guests, or suggest other great people we should feature, join our community on the Flick InvestHer group or send us a message on investherpodcast.com. Want more great resources? female founders about funding? Check out our InvestHer Academy at academy.globalinvesther.com. I'm Anne Ravanona and look forward to having you with us again for our next episode. Let's put the fun into funding and get more women entrepreneurs funded.