🎙️ EP41: Building the Tech Workforce of the Future via a New Way to Teach Kids… | InvestHer Podcast

Hi, it's your funding friend Anne, back again for another episode at InvestHer Podcast. This week we are delighted to interview another one of our winners from the InvestHer Summit pitch competition. This week you're going to hear from Dora Palfi, who is co-founder and CEO of Imagie, which is a Swedish startup that is building the tech workforce of the future. So they have invented a new way to teach kids how to code which is absolutely fundamental to help the companies of the future and for now. And in this episode, you're going to learn a lot about how she founded this company with her co-founder Beatrice, how they leveled up, took it to the next level in testing, what they're doing to really disrupt educating girls and boys when it comes to learning how to code and making it easier for them and making it inclusive, and all about their funding journey to date. It's a really wonderful podcast and I know you're going to enjoy it. Have a good listen. Investor Podcast is for you, the female founder who has a product, a service, or a message that you believe in and need to get funded. Or for you, the investor who wants to learn more about the huge untapped investment opportunity that gives you a higher return— women entrepreneurs. My name is Anne Ravanona. I'm an entrepreneur, TED speaker and women's advocate, and I'm passionate about helping women entrepreneurs get funded. In each episode, we'll take a behind-the-scenes look into real-world funding tactics and strategies to help you get the funding you need faster. Let's put the fun into funding. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let's get started. Welcome everybody to a latest episode of InvestHer Podcast, and today I am absolutely thrilled to have with us Dora Palfey from Imagie. Now, Dora is one of our lucky winners of our pitch competition for the very first InvestHer Summit. And I said, listen, Dora, I want the world to know about you. I want to know about your work and what you're bringing to the world. So today is a really great conversation to help you all get behind the scenes to understand Dora, her company, what they're doing, and her funding journey so far. So Without any further ado, let's get started. Dora, big welcome to you. How are you?

Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

Well, I'm delighted to have you. And again, thanks for being part of the, the pitch competition and everything. So tell us a little bit about you. First of all, Dora, who are you? Where are you based? And then we can learn more about your company.

Yes, thank you so much. And yeah, thank you again for the pitch competition as well. It was a great experience and it was amazing to, you know, meet— always amazing to meet other female founders working on very exciting businesses. So my end, me and my co-founder Beatrice have started Imagine together in Sweden. So we're a Stockholm-based company. Both of us were studying our master's degree at the Royal Institute of Technology, which is the engineering school in Stockholm. But previously, the two of us have been best friends and studied together for my undergraduate degree at NYU, lived both in New York and in Abu Dhabi. And both of us have a background in STEM, so science, technology, engineering, and math. Beatriz has studied electrical engineering and machine learning. I studied neuroscience, computer science, human-computer interaction. So our kind of investment into tech as an industry has started a while back. And we both worked in big tech tech companies. And throughout our studies and, and our internship experiences, we really experienced firsthand a lack of diversity in tech. And so that was the initial motivator, uh, for starting Imagi. Um, so we always like to refer to what we call this exercise in logic, that we believe that technology is our future.

Hmm.

And so if we know that women are not equally involved with tech, then women also don't have an equal chance to shape the future. And that's what we Decided to change.

I love that. I mean, I really do, because, you know, a lot of women graduate from STEM, go into tech. I heard a statistic. Somebody said that people, that a lot of them leave after 8 years. So there's that kind of window. If you, if you can stick it out, you're really kind of an outlier. And I'm delighted to hear that you basically decided You saw the problem and said, well, that's not good enough. I've got my STEM degree, and I want to encourage more women and girls to be in STEM, to have an equal chance at the pie. And I'm so excited to hear more. So tell us more about Imagine. How did you get started, and what part of the problem of women in STEM and girls in STEM did you choose to work on?

Yeah, so that's an excellent question. So essentially, we look at this problem as a pipeline, and If you know Sheryl Sandberg, she used to talk a lot about the leaky pipeline. So essentially, at every stage of this pipeline, girls and women are dropping out. And so by the time we are talking about university and, you know, beginning your careers, maybe about like 30% or even less are women. But what happens is that this problem also starts a lot earlier. And so for me personally, when I was doing my master's degree, And I understood that, okay, there is not enough women studying. Like, how could we make an impact by going earlier? Because what I saw is that there were a lot of initiatives supporting adult women in coding. So me, myself, like, I had the opportunity to, for example, attend the Grace Hopper Celebration, which was a really big conference for women in tech. A lot of, like, kind of evening coding sessions for adult women. There was a lot of retraining opportunity. But I was like, who is really addressing the root of this problem? Like, how do we go earlier? And then I did a lot of like reading, really just going after understanding secondary research as well as talking to a lot of people and understanding how and why they got into tech. And so turns out that the majority of girls lose their interest and also not just their interest, but really their confidence that tech is something for them around the ages of like 12 to 14. So at the age of 12, still the majority of girls are interested in tech and have the confidence. But by the age of 14, this number dramatically drops depending on the country. There is different reports, but I believe in the US it's about 12% of girls who remain interested versus 50% of boys. So yeah, there is this really, really steep decline. And so we believe that by going early, we can really make a meaningful contribution to changing diversity and diversity numbers down the line.

And I think it's so important what you're saying. I know we hear about initiatives for very, very young girls. And I think it's just interesting you're mentioning that tipping point. I think that what that statistic you just said, by the age of 12, only around 12% of girls remain interested in STEM in the US. That's a major— wow, that's a big eye-opener for me. I knew it was bad. I didn't realize it was that bad. So effectively, when we're always saying we can't get enough girls and women in STEM, if if there's only 12% who are only interested by the time they're 12 and going into their teens to choose the subjects they need to study to be able to continue on that path, effectively you're, you're nipping it in the bud. So, so what exactly is your solution? What do you do at, uh, Imagi? Tell us more.

Yes, so right, so identifying that this age group is extremely crucial, uh, was kind of the first step in the process. Um, and during my master's degree, I had a research project, uh, where a classmate of mine, um, essentially worked together with young girls, and we used a process called Future Workshops. So it was a user-centered design research process, uh, where essentially we encouraged our participants to imagine solutions that would make it fun for them to learn coding with.

Mm-hmm.

And so we gave like paper and scissors and clay and all sorts of prototyping materials to these girls. And of course, you know, You really don't need much to encourage creativity in these young kids. So it's amazing the things that they can come up with. And then we sort of analyzed a lot of the prototypes, a lot of the ideas, and came up with a framework and some design requirements for a product that would actually make it fun and relevant for girls to learn coding with. And so some of the things that we took away was that it seemed like the target group really cared about having a tangible experience. So connecting what they are learning either with like real-world solutions or like literally having a physical component, uh, that made the coding outcome somehow more real. Um, then creativity and self-expression were really important, as well as sort of collaboration over competition. And then finally, yeah, having this kind of like social experience connected to it. And so based on these design requirements, we Initially had actually the idea for creating a programmable phone case, but that was going to be fairly complicated. You know, phones are changing all the time, like how to make this nice and put all the electronics inside and not make it too bulky. And so then we continued working with, with young girls and then came up with the concept of a keychain or some sort of accessory that kids could wear that would display their coding. And so that's how the idea of the Imagicharm, our physical product, was born. And alongside with the idea that if we made it possible to code on your phone, uh, then we could really, really lower the barrier to entry so kids could just learn coding on the go. And so we came out to the market and launched the MagiCharm and our coding app in the summer of 2020. So that's been, yeah, 3 years. Um, and so essentially with this solution, like, kids as young as sometimes 6, but I would say the prime target group is like 7, 8, all the way up to like 13, are able to learn coding on their own through our tutorials in the app, participate in coding challenges, and also be part of a big community of kids who are coding and sharing their coding projects and build on top of each other's work. So that's how it started.

I love it. Oh my God, I'm super excited.

For those of you who—

you can't see me writing furiously. Poor Dora is seeing the top of my head here as I'm keeping notes as we're going along. But I think it's amazing, A, that you really studied the girls' behavior. This is where your neuroscience comes in, in the behavioral science piece. It's so beautiful the way you're meshing your, your common competencies between yourself and Beatrice to make this come alive, but also to do it in a way that talks to girls. Because it's true. Like, we know from past— like, I'm a little bit older than you, quite a bit older than you. So when we were growing up, the boys were the ones effectively who were learning to play a computer games, and they were doing it more interested. And it's so interesting. So they had access to that. So when the first games came into the home, it was the guys, we know this, and the girls were like, I'm not interested in that. I want to— I don't want to be by myself or playing, just competing with one guy. I want to be out playing with my friends and doing something, you know, more creative. So I love the way you're tapping into the way, you know, the interests of girls, how they're different from boys, especially at that age, tapping into their creativity and, and also Um, you know, giving them— really tailoring the experience for them and to— in the ways that speak to girls. Because it's true, like, we, we are— you mentioned collaboration, you know, community. That is, that is very, very different way that girls think and, and women do in general too. So I think that's, that's very interesting. And the other thing is like, wow, you launched in summer 2020. I heard that. So hold on, this is in COVID land. So did you, you launch during COVID Tell us more, Dory. How was that experience?

Yeah, well, interesting, I guess. And I will speak to this a bit more. But, you know, we, we first planned to have a big, like, physical launch event, like wanting to do that at the technical— so we have this lovely museum in Stockholm called the Tekniska Museet, it's like technical museum that kids love. And, you know, we plan for all sorts of, like, in-person things. And of course, everything had to go digital. Hmm. Which, you know, uh, was just a new reality. Um, and I think it really had a big impact on the course of how Imagine developed because, um, now today I can get into this a bit more in detail as well, but we actually shifted our focus more towards education and primarily focusing on the US market. And I think this is a big part because everything we did was digital So even though we were based in Sweden, it didn't quite matter. Our content was in English. And so we actually just started reaching US audiences. I believe also because parents were really open to finding things that would keep their kids engaged and something that's educational.

Yeah.

And so we started to see most traction. Yeah, truly in the US. And just to like Yeah, touch upon a couple of things that you mentioned. So I can also share until today. So since we launched like a bit more than 3 years ago, our app had around like 220,000 installs. But the majority of that, actually more than half of that is from this year. So of course, you know, it's always like a slow climb at the beginning. And yeah, overarching— or like, yeah, overwhelmingly from the United States. But actually, it's also important to say that while 70% of our users are girls and non-binary, 30% are boys. And so I think it's also really interesting because both from parents and from teachers, we hear the feedback that, you know, we're not trying to categorize, oh, this is what boys like, this is what girls like. It's more that we came up with a way of teaching coding that's extremely different from everything else out there. And so teachers really say that, oh, this brings out a type of creativity in the boys that I also like haven't seen. So it's just like a new paradigm for teaching coding. And I also think, you know, inclusivity is incredibly important, and young people are much better at it than our generations. So they also really enjoy that, you know, we're not saying that it's for girls. It's more like we're showing it that this is for everyone, and we use a lot of images of girls.

Mm-hmm.

But of course, yeah, not excluding anyone who would like to learn coding through this new approach that is again just more collaborative, creative, and social.

Amazing. And I think that's a very important nuance that you just made. So thank you for clarifying that for us to say, okay, this is really for everybody. And I love the way you've also mentioned just really on the inclusivity piece about making sure that it's open to girls and non-binary children. I think that's so important. It's a wonderful thing, especially that nowadays this is More understood and, and, and claimed and so on. So, so it's very important to, to honor people's differences and to allow them to feel welcome. And that's the most important piece of the inclusivity. So, so tell us more about the charm and the app. So what does— what do the children do? Just briefly, because of course we'll be linking this, everybody, to— you'll have the links to Imagi at the— in the show notes. But tell us a bit more about the app and then about the charm, because I think that's Cool. And are you going to have a version of a charm that is for more, more for boys or not really? Just curious.

Yeah. So I think like if anyone gets to see the charm and the packaging and everything, it's extremely colorful. And I think that's also part of the inclusivity language that, I mean, we have pink, but we also have green and we have blue. And, you know, like the charm itself has a light green color. So we made this to be inclusive. And again, yeah, boys love it as much as girls do. Um, but from an impact perspective, of course, we are very rigorously measuring, is this engaging girls? Is this making girls more confident? Because if not, then we didn't succeed at our mission.

Yeah.

Um, so, you know, that's just kind of how we look at it. Um, but so yeah, in a practical sense, so in the Imagi app— and so now I'm talking about our consumer app, which anyone can go ahead and download on their phones or their iPod— sorry, iPads or tablets. Um, so after signing up, we have so-called lessons available. So essentially, um, these are a bit like Duolingo, bite-sized, um, opportunities to learn certain coding concepts. And the exciting thing is that we start out really from, from zero, uh, but the experience has been designed to be actually understandable even if one can't read. So we try to focus a lot on kind of showing and then learning and constructing the knowledge alongside. Um, and then as our users— so as kids go through these levels, they learn various coding concepts. And in every level, you're surprised by a certain pixel art that you create, and that's kind of like part of the reward. Of course, you also get badges, and, you know, we use a few gamification elements. But I think beyond just gamification, what we try to do is really make the experience game-based, where the difference is that like it should be intrinsically fun. It shouldn't be fun because you get badges. And so in every level you get, um, a pixel art that you created in the end. So for example, now I'm on level 3, like I'm just like looking for some examples here where you end up with a pixel art of a Pac-Man. And so if one— like, once you finish the level, if you have your Imagicharm, which is our hardware gadget, essentially it just Bluetooth connects and you're able to bring the code, um, to life. So like actually upload it to the Imagicharm. Um, and so that is usually like the really big wow moment, uh, for kids, like as they connect and as their art shows up in the real world. We sometimes hear screams and just very, very proud moments. And so kids love to kind of just like show this to their friends and show around what they've been coding. And then the other really important pillar is our community feed.

Yeah.

And so here, essentially, some have referenced this as a GitHub meets Instagram, but you have a feed where essentially there is all sorts of like pixel art and coding projects, and kids are leaving comments to each other. you can try out someone else's code and so-called use a remixing feature. So essentially further modify it and build on top of someone else's code. Of course, this is a moderate— like moderated community. So we have a community moderator, which is very important, uh, to make sure that it's safe and inclusive for, for children. Um, and so one of the most popular, um, kind of pillars of our consumer app is that we always have a coding challenge ongoing. So every 2 weeks there's a different challenge. And right now we actually have a Halloween coding challenge as of the recording of this, this episode. And so you can see amazing Halloween coding projects. And at the end of the challenge, the community votes for the best project. So there's a lot of, again, just sort of interaction between our users from around the world. And there is a true sense of belonging.

I love it. I love it in so many different ways, Dora, what you're describing. And, and, you know, I'm getting lucky to see it on the screen as she's showing the, the, the charm. It's amazing because, as you say, the aha moment of the child seeing their coding, which is kind of invisible, become tangible and visible in a different way that you'd normally see. I think that's absolutely magical, and I think it's very, very clever also because You know, as things will get more sophisticated, I presume your— the images and the art can get more sophisticated in future as well. You know, it's like, I think, bring— using a— it's not a wearable, but it is IoT. So using a physical device to demonstrate the code and make it real, I think, is a really powerful thing, particularly as we're saying for for girls, but not just, um, so that they can see, wow, this is, this is, um, this is real. I did this, you know, um, and owning it physically, owning it, because yeah, we, we do that piece different. So how— bring us back to the confidence piece. How do you measure like the girls' confidence at the beginning when they're just starting on the app, and then as they're learning their coding skills and as they go forward How do you track that confidence so that you can go back to parents or schools or education stakeholders to say, this is the impact we're having?

Yeah, so that's a really, really important question, of course, because how are you going to make a change if you're not measuring it? You know, what gets measured gets done. So our consumer app is a bit more mature because we launched it 3 years ago, and something that we have implemented is really just a survey step. But we ask children who use our app, you know, at the beginning of their journey about their confidence and interest in tech. And then as they have gone through a certain number of levels. And so we look at essentially the— yeah, just like the increase, the clear increase.

Mm-hmm.

And so what we see is that more than 30% of girls and non-binary who use our products see an increased interest and confidence in coding after completing 12 levels. So that's where we measured. And so that's actually only about, I would say, an hour, hour and a half of coding with our tool.

Wow.

It's a really, really exciting impact that, you know, really just investing a bit of time can lead to a measurable increase in interest and confidence. And then when it comes to our school partners, and maybe we can talk a bit more about the school side. But right now we also rely a lot on, on surveying, and we know that 4 out of 5 children who use the Imagie kind of platform— so we have a separate platform called Imagie Edu— they want to continue coding after having used it. And so that's very exciting. But I think what's really exciting opportunity, especially on the school side, is that we have an adult, we have the teacher as our core point of contact. And so now we are able to start planning for kind of longer-term impact evaluation as well. And we have some of our, like, biggest partners so far, like I mentioned, in the United States. And we started to discuss sort of like longitudinal impact studies as well, like actually seeing that from the middle schoolers who are using Imagi, like how many of them are going to choose computer science as their elective in high school. So that's an exciting side on the education end that you do have the opportunity for these more longitudinal impact evaluations. But there we are at the much earlier state of our journey because we only launched our education platform in September 2022. So it's been just 13 months.

Amazing. And I'm sure that's probably going to be very fast growing because We need— like, the fact is, in the future of work, this is how it's positioning. Like, you're positioning, yes, it's great that the kids get these skills now, but it's also— we have to be thinking way, way ahead of what does our economy, what do our global economy— what does our global economy need in terms of skills and understanding in order to build the products and services of the future and to create the new jobs that are changing? And, you know, a friend of mine, Monica Parker, she wrote a book on wonder. The Power of Wonder, and it talks a lot about curiosity and everything. It's an excellent book. And in it, she gives the, she gives the example from her research showing that on average, children today are gonna have 18 different jobs before they retire.

Wow.

18 different types of roles. And that's now. So we can imagine in 10 years' time when the children who are starting using ImagiNow, where they're gonna be. So if you know, if we know now, and parents listening to this, I bet you didn't know that interesting statistic. You know, if we know now, the more exposure we can give to our children to ways of thinking, using their mind, using their creativity, stimulating them in a more healthy way in collaboration and communication, because that's also what you're talking about. It's not just the coding skills. You're learning collaboration skills, communication skills, and the confidence piece. It's, it's very complete. So the more we focus on and we realize, wow, we as parents and educators, we do have a duty of care, if I were— maybe if I go so far to say that we do need to, as far as is possible, broaden our children's minds so that we have more well-rounded, capable, adaptive young adults and adults in the world who'll be able to collaborate and communicate more efficiently and effectively with each other and to solve the world's problems With a new mindset.

It's interesting that you mentioned like communication, because I think I sometimes think about it this way, like you have to have good communication skills to be able to communicate with your colleagues. Like that's now understood and required in jobs. But in fact, most of us like collaborate the majority of the day with our computers. So, you know, if you could become more effective at communicating and collaborating with your computer, like, obviously that's going to supercharge your career. And I think, um, there has been a pretty big push. And so we do have a bit of tailwind now here because there are several countries, um, and within the US several states who have made it mandatory to teach coding in schools, also already in middle schools. Uh, the requirements differ a bit, but there seems to be like a growing understanding and consensus that first of all, we have a growing number of jobs that do require, uh, pretty like high level of technical skills. Um, and so these jobs are also usually pretty high-paying jobs, so they are great opportunity, um, economically. And then also that even though not everyone is going to be, um, a technologist or a developer, uh, most jobs— like the percentage of jobs that do require some level of technical skills is growing, and jobs that don't require any technical skills is really shrinking. And then of course, again, just going back to the equity piece, by ensuring that everyone has an opportunity to be exposed to coding, we can really make a significant step towards more inclusion and diversity in the tech industry. And that really we can only achieve if, you know, all kids have the chance in school to learn these skills.

So that's super interesting because again, when we're talking about equity, there are children unfortunately who are more underprivileged. privileged in that they don't have access to the same level of resources at home. And in some schools that have, you know, not the same access to resources. So how can Imagi, through your app and through the charm and through the work that you're doing, how can you reach those children through the schools? To the schools and also through the parents?

Yes, so that's a great question. So we talked quite a bit about the Imagicharm, and I love the Imagicharm and so do kids. But what is very exciting is that our product is truly engaging without the physical component as well. And so essentially you just have a preview in the app and you see the art that you coded. And so the fact that you can do it through the software as well, and like you don't need the hardware, is a really big step towards sort of making it more accessible and more affordable. So we do have schools who only use the software side of our product. And so, you know, that allows for more scalability in our experience. So our app, the mobile app, is completely free right now, and our school software is a freemium product. So teachers can go ahead and try it out for free if they want to. They will be just limited in, you know, what they can do, obviously. Uh, but again, that's an important part in terms of just access and opportunity. Uh, and what's also really exciting is that we've had the opportunity to work with quite a few very well-known organizations. So organizations such as Black Girls Code, which is a really big nonprofit in the United States, um, catering, uh, specifically, uh, to girls of color. They also, you know, cater to some boys, and they also try to focus specifically, or more underprivileged areas. And so organizations like theirs, or for example the Girl Scouts, we've worked with quite a bit, they're using our tools, also allow us to reach the audiences who would potentially otherwise not be able to get their hands on our tools.

Lovely. So thank you so much for that round, really well-rounded tour of Imagine New Work. I think it's amazing, and I think it's very, very needed. So that's why I'm so excited to have you here today. So I want the world to know about Imagi. I want others to be inspired. And I want the parents listening in, the investors listening in, the teachers listening in, the education stakeholders listening in to say, wow, this is something that we really should be considering for our— for now and our future generations. Because more— the better educated our populations are, the better access they have to jobs and to creating wealth for the economies, for the world. And for the SDGs, it's always be thinking about impact. I have my UN pin in front of me and I'm always looking at it. What can we do for the planet? So now I'd love us to switch tack, Dora. Let's talk a little bit about your funding journey to help get Imagi to where you've been now, where you are now, and where your plans for where you want to go. So can you tell us, how did you and Beatrice, when you set up, how did this get started from a funding perspective? Did you put money to put in? How did you get going? And yeah, just walk us through your funding journey. journey to date?

Yes. Um, so we were students when we started out with Imagi, and we had a prototype for some kind of gadget that would make it fun to learn coding with for girls. It was very unclear at that point, but what happened is that, um, we were quite plugged in in a lot of these networks of teaching kids coding and teaching girls coding. And at some point when we were still just like thinking about prototyping, um, we got a customer, so a big event, uh, that reaches hundreds of girls here in Stockholm to teach coding. And so we were asked to hold a workshop, um, and teach using our, our prototype. And so at that point we're like, oh, we need to have a business to be able to invoice this customer. And I would say the first sort of like year and a half or 2, uh, when we started, we did, um, every now and then hold workshops and, you know, just like get paid to, to hold coding workshops for kids, which was—

Mm-hmm.

Really wonderful because we had the opportunity to, to test our, like, concept and product and develop our curriculum, uh, while also getting paid to do so. Um, and in the very beginning, we also received some prototyping grants. So I really credit a lot to being in, in Sweden, in Stockholm. Um, and really, like, we were not— I, I would say we were I wouldn't say we weren't entrepreneurial, but we never had the idea that we would become entrepreneurs. It was more about like, oh, we really care about this problem, like what can we do about it? And then it really, I think, was because of our entire environment. Our university had sort of like a business lab, an incubator. First we just got some grants that we could spend on prototyping, and then we got a grant that was through the Swedish government to, you know, start working on it more seriously. Um, as well as our university's incubator had like sort of an instrument to invest in companies. Um, and so, you know, it was very much just like university spin-off situation that very gradually turned into a company. Um, and then from there, uh, like our funding journey really started with like an early kind of like incubator slash angels round. And then later we raised a significantly larger angel round, um, as well as this round got joined later on by Morgan Stanley, who has a program called Inclusive Ventures Lab. And so, uh, they— we became part of their first European program. So they invested in 5 European companies, um, and so in total, like, through the equity funding, uh, we received around like $1 million euros. And then in addition, like I mentioned, we've gotten grants here and there. And also, of course, like revenue since the start to be able to finance our growth. And I must say, some of the grants that we received are also really valuable, not only because of the cash component, but also kind of the additional benefits that they came with. So I always must shout out to Cartier Women's Initiative, which is an amazing program. that supports female founders working on impact businesses. And in addition to the cash prize, like they actually financed for me to attend a kind of mini MBA at INSEAD as well as do like additional training on financial modeling. And especially for like for me, I came from an engineering background, didn't have much business knowledge. This was incredibly useful and important. And another amazing organization for young entrepreneurs is One Young World. And through One Young World, we won one of the Lead 2030 challenges that was sponsored by Deloitte. So that was also, again, just like cash prize as well as an amazing kind of support network. So, you know, the funding journey has been really a mix of all sorts of different instruments. And yeah, finding our way to move forward.

I love it. And what you've described is, I think, the way that the funding journey for most entrepreneurs, and in particular women entrepreneurs, it is usually a mix of all those different things. And I just think it's very interesting, as you say, how you've come out of, out of a university, kind of a university spin-off into, into the pure business world, but education, edtech world, that you're staying true to your values and, and your core motivations, which is very important. And I, I love the resources that you've shared. So you've talked about the Cartier Women's Initiative Award. I cannot speak more highly of them. I think they're absolutely phenomenal. So for those of you listening in who don't know, we'll be sharing these links in the show notes so you can have a look and access them. But basically they have regional grants all around the world, and you can get up to €100,000 or dollars in prize money, in cash prize, if you are one of their winners. I think it's a bit less if you're number 2 or 3 in the category. So As you say, plus it's all the mentoring and education that goes alongside that. And I think it's great for you to share like the grants. I'm curious, and One Young World, sorry, I do want to pick that one up as well. So for a lot of young people, they don't really know about One Young World. You definitely check it out because it is all about raising the leaders of the future really, and connecting the leaders of the future very early on in their journey to each other. I wish that existed when I was growing up. I would have wanted to be part of that for sure. Um, so tell us more then, in the angel rounds and all of these rounds, have they been all Swedish investors that you've had, or have you had international investors? How has that gone?

Yeah, that's a wonderful question. So no, I'd say in the very beginning, we have built on our— well, we built out our network in Sweden through our university. Oh, sorry, one second. Water break.

Yeah, no worries.

Yes, so yeah, initially we built out our network in Sweden also through our university. For example, they had a way to reach out to alumni who are interested in, you know, the companies who are coming out of KTH. and whatnot, and also just like tapping into our network. Um, but I must say, some of our later investors we got— um, so one of our angel investors, um, Eros, he's a former CMO of Discord, and we actually met him at Slush. Uh, so Slush is a really big tech conference in the Nordics, and, you know, conferences can be a bit of a hit and miss, uh, but still, for us, it's been very instrumental.

It's okay, take your time, pause, we can edit out the coughs. Drink what you want and what you need. Take your time. I'm gonna drink some water too.

There we are.

So you were saying that conferences can be instrumental, that you met one of your angel investors at Slush.

And one of our, one of our lead angel investors we met. So he was the one who kind of like uh, led our, our pre-seed round. And then, um, also people always say that, you know, you should be asking for advice, and, and that's very true. Like, I've had wonderful people whom I met like throughout the journey, stayed in touch, truly reached out for advice, but then when time came to raise funding, I was like, oh wait, maybe they invest, and reached out. And, and I think that type of relationship building, uh, also worked. Worked quite well for me. I've been sending out, you know, consistent, um, quarterly newsletters for prospective investors and kind of just like stay in touch. And often someone I met ended up becoming an investor like much later down the line. Um, so I think, you know, I have more knowledge about raising from, from angel investors. I think it's a completely different game to, to raise from, from VC investors. But I think in the case of angels, like, uh, for us, really this relationship building has been a really big part of it.

And I think it's— I mean, congratulations, you've nailed that part of the funding game. You have. And it's down to having an incredible product that works, your dedication, your hard work of constantly building the contacts, building the network, building out the markets for it. And I think another important point that you mentioned earlier on in this conversation is customer revenue, because the best form of funding is a paying customer. So tell us more how that has played a part in your funding journey, because that's— I cannot overestimate or, yeah, overemphasize that point. It's so important.

Yeah, exactly. I think, I mean, like I mentioned, you know, we started a business when we first had a customer who wanted to invoice us. So it was kind of just part of the founding story that, oh, you make a business and you also need to be charging, you know, getting customers. through the door. And so, you know, I mean, like, we are a quite small team, very lean team. And, um, especially in the current funding environment, you know, so many people talk about suddenly about having a path to profitability, whereas I think before this wasn't necessarily so much talked about. I do also think that, um, having a business that creates a physical product, like, really lends itself to you thinking a lot more about this Like from the beginning, because you do have like people are used to buying physical things and you also have to be just much more aware of your costs associated. So I think it creates this type of mindset as well that you are more aware of like your product actually bringing in real revenue. And so I think for us, like I said, you know, if you look at the amount of money that we have used to develop the company, like a big part of it has been coming from revenue. And of course, it's just, I believe, not just important because of your customer validation, but like you said, it is a big part of like financing ourselves.

Exactly. It is exactly that. I love the way you phrase that. It's the 2 things. It's customer validation and funding in one. And that's really, really, really good. So therefore, should we consider you've done your seed round then after all this million up to now, plus the grants? Would you consider that your Seed? You've done a pre-seed and seed, or is that all your pre-seed? How would you position yourself in your funding journey so far?

Yeah, I'd say, yeah, it's always so tricky with the different, like, names. I'd say, um, we considered it a pre-seed, our, like, second round, because we have gone through quite a bit of, uh, exploration. Um, you know, some would say pivot, some would say evolution. I think it's perhaps more of an evolution. Until we found sort of the current market focus that we now feel confident in, that, you know, it's the path that we see is repeatable and scalable and we are committed to. And, you know, that's okay. I think it's been a very important journey for us to go through all these different focus areas until we found what works for us. I love it.

Brilliant. So what are the next steps for you, Dora, and Imagi on your funding journey? I always, because this podcast is around funding, so what are your next plans? Where do you want to go next?

Yeah, so I mean, I just finished the previous sentence with, you know, having found something that's actually like scalable and repeatable. So it's very exciting for us that we are at a stage now where Yeah, we see that we have a clear path forward. And I think we talked about the importance of revenue. And so I think it's, it's just important that we also see this like path to profitability in near sight. And actually that makes us just sort of like more confident and excited to actually find financing for, for the growth. So we are going to be looking to, to power our growth. And like I mentioned, the majority of our customers are in the United States.

Mm-hmm.

that's our current focus. Um, so yes, I think if there are listeners of the podcast who have either knowledge, you know, US system or education system— and I also want to just like expand on the fact that I think edtech can be a bit of a limiting definition. And it's very true that we are kind of focusing on like reimagining access to coding education and within the K-12 ecosystem right now. But as our sort of larger vision and where we see us going, right, we want to have a measurable impact on the change of diversity in the tech industry. And we see a huge opportunity as we continue to grow our reach, continue growing our community, and having this incredibly engaged and active community of young people who are interested in tech, who have some skills in tech, tech and who are very diverse. And we're working with, you know, the other stakeholders, be that tech companies, um, who are really interested in having this tunnel— a funnel, um, you know, uh, actually going into their companies and whatnot. So there's a lot of opportunity within the realm of what we're trying to do that is not just purely edtech, but, um, a really big part of it is how do we then ensure that that this community then goes into actually changing the face of the tech industry.

So I love it because I do, I totally agree with you. Labels and definitions are very important. And I think you guys are at, if I may say, I see you guys at the intersection of edtech, future of work, and diversity and inclusion. You're at an intersection of those 3 worlds and probably more too, you know, the neuroscience, behavioral science as well. So there's a lot of wonderful layers to it. That's why I was excited to have you on, Dora. I want the world to know about this. And because you help us to shape that conversation to say, we've got to think broader, wider, not be thinking even in boxes of I'm in edtech or whatever. And this is what we're doing. I love how you've described how you have morphed the company and the product more importantly, to meet the needs and to say, okay, this is where we're going. And, you know, that's important lessons to say. What would be your key tips to to women entrepreneurs on this journey, on the funding journey in particular, Dora, from your experience?

Well, I think, um, first of all, again, my experience coming more from raising from angels as opposed to VCs, so, you know, take it with, uh, with that context. Um, but I think it's really important that, you know, it's never Easy, I believe. And so, you know, it's just important to be prepared to hear nos. And I mean, you know, that's also part of the sales process. So I feel like if you're selling, you're probably used to it. But just making sure that you stick with sort of your plans and values and then find the people who are excited about funding that. I think, like I mentioned earlier, relationship building is a really big part of it. finding people from whom you can truly ask, uh, for advice from. Um, and so building those type of relationships, I think, is a big part of play. I would say, um, fellow founders, like, a really big part. We never haven't talked about this yet, but I think for me, communities of female founders, but also communities of edtech founders and, and just other founders in general, have been also quite instrumental in securing funding. both in terms of just like giving feedback on, on my pitch and my materials, but also making introductions to their investors. So I would say the community there is really, really important. Yeah, so I think maybe those would be like my 3 tips.

I love it. I love it. So it's, you know, get ready, you know, hear the nos and move past the nos, stick to your plans, and Stick to your values and find the people who get it and who are joining you on that one. Focus on the relationships. That's really important what you said. And in that category, also tap into your fellow founders in your sector and in your community and so on. That's amazing. So thank you so much for sharing your funding journey today, Dora. Where can people reach out to you if they're interested in the app, interested in potentially being an investor in your next round? How can they contact you? Where's the best place?

Yeah, so I believe we'll be sharing links and whatnot, but feel free to find me on LinkedIn. So Dora Palfi, I have a little lightning bolt emoji in front of my name so that it's easy to find me. But of course, you can also reach out via email and you can find that on our website. So yeah, just get in touch.

Wonderful. So thank you so much for being with us today, Dora. It's been an absolute pleasure. Very best of continued success to you guys. I would love to say to you, let's have a catch-up podcast episode in a while, in a year or so, whenever it will be, just to say, how, where are you now? Because I love that. It's like when you watch the program, say, where are they now? I think I'd love to see where you are now because I have great visions for you and for Beatrice and for what you're building. So very best of luck with that.

Thank you so much.

So as we look at the key takeaways from today's episode with Dora, I think I think these are the— my top 3. Number 1, when it comes to changing the paradigm in getting more girls and women in tech, we've got to start early. When only 12% of girls over 12 years old are still interested in tech, we've got to get them young. So see what you can do to help make a change in that. Build the confidence in the girls in your life. Help them to do coding, get them into tech activities from a very early age, and maintain that interest. As much as you can. When it comes to funding, some of the things that she shared with us is look at those non-dilutive things such as grants, pitch competitions, and the power of what else comes with those prizes, the mentoring, the learning that comes along, as well as the dilutive stuff, the angel investing that you already know. And I also said the third thing is I love the magic that she has found and her co-founder have found with Imagi, bringing together the crossroads The crossroads of where 3 different things happen, that's where the magic happens. So in her case, it's bringing together neuroscience, behavioral science, and tech to create change and more diversity in tech for girls. So think about you. What are the intersections in your industry and what you're doing? How could you be crossing with some other ones and create more innovation that way? So there you go, some of our key learnings from today. Hope you like this.

podcast.

If you enjoyed it, feel free to share it with other founders, funders, people in this ecosystem, or those people in your life who have girls that you think they need to learn this stuff. They need to know so that we can help really make a difference when it comes to more girls and women in tech. See you soon. Thank you for listening to InvestHer Podcast. Don't miss more great funding tips and insights by subscribing to the podcast on Apple or your favorite podcast host. And while you're there, I'd love you to rate and review the show. We'd love to hear from you. So if you'd like to send in some questions, interact with our guests, or suggest other great people we should feature, join our community on the Flick InvestHer group or send us a message on investherpodcast.com. Want more great resources for female founders about fundraising, Check out our InvestHer Academy at academy.globalinvesther.com. I'm Anne Ravanona and look forward to having you with us again for our next episode. Let's put the fun into funding and get more women entrepreneurs funded.