🎙️ EP43: Venture Forward - From Selling My Company to Becoming a VC Investing… | InvestHer Podcast

Hi, it's your funding friend Anne back again, and welcome to another episode of InvestHer Podcast. This week's episode is so exciting because you're going to learn from Sarah Dusek how she went from zero to creating a $100 million business, selling her business for $100 million, and then going on to become a venture capitalist herself to invest in women entrepreneurs in Africa. What a story! This is an amazing story that you will not hear all the time everywhere you go. So I cannot wait for you to hear Sarah's story. Saddle up, listen to this because it's going to be a really incredible journey. Enjoy! So welcome everybody to our latest episode of InvestHer Podcast, and I am so, so, so excited for you all to meet Sarah Dusek. Sarah is in the house, and Sarah, you have an incredible story. Uh, for those who don't know Sarah, she is an incredible woman entrepreneur turned VC. So you're gonna learn both sides of the story from Sarah's incredible story. You wanna know where glamping came from? You're looking at one of the co-founders who created this whole glamping movement. And, uh, you are just an incredible woman. So thank you so much, Sarah, for being with us today.

It is so exciting to be here with you, Anne. Thanks for having me.

So I really want to start at the beginning. I'd love you to tell our listeners and viewers a little bit more about you, who you are, and then we'll get into Under Canvas and that entrepreneur journey. What was your life before being an entrepreneur? And then we'll go into from there.

Yes, I consider myself an accidental entrepreneur, um, and an entrepreneur who discovered that what I assumed was the dark side doesn't have to be that dark. So I started my career in the nonprofit world. I spent many years living overseas working for aid agencies. British originally, still British, but also now American, as I loved it. I married a lovely American man. And when I, my early 20s, I definitely would've considered myself a save the world person. Still consider myself to be a save the world person. But realized that aid agencies were just not cutting the mustard. It was like we were bandaging and, you know, putting plasters on very deep wounds that needed stitches and needed disinfectant. And like nothing was getting solved. And I found myself feeling very frustrated and burned out and realizing maybe there's a better way, and I just haven't figured out what it is because I just felt this sort of deep sense of I want to solve problems. I want to like fix things and I want to make things happen and I'm not, which of course is the real genesis of an entrepreneur, right? Entrepreneurs constantly just wanting to fix things, solve problems, make things better. And that's when I realized business probably is a much better vehicle for doing good in the world, much better vehicle for driving change. Of course, all innovations come out of a, of a business. Usually that's what businesses do. They innovate. So that really started an exploration into thinking, well, if I'm thinking that's a better vehicle, better figure out maybe how to be in business and maybe learn some of the basics about being in business. So that was really the beginning of an unexpected journey, really, of going into business and having to get my brain around that making money wasn't wasn't evil, and actually that making money can be a real force for good in the world. And surprisingly, I still find and still find and still meet quite a lot of women, not necessarily who are, who are like me, but who shy away from this idea that women making money is a good thing. Somehow we've still got this sort of baggage hanging over our heads that said it's not appropriate or not or not ideal for women to be, you know, really in power seats or making a lot of money. And that, for a lot of reasons, has got to change.

Oh, I'm so glad. I'm so glad you said that. You share it. I'm honestly, I'm one of them. I'm like, honestly, I have that same complex, which is like, I want to do good and I am doing good in the world, but it's like, you gotta still make the money and you can do both. And it's And so important you talk about it. Did, did you have a business background, Sarah? Like when you say you started in the nonprofit world, what was it? And then how did you get that business acumen?

Yes. So I learned everything I know the hard way. Um, and so I don't have a business degree. I have a law degree, um, and a master's in missiology, uh, which is not, you know, not business focused in any way. Um, and so when we started our business journey, We literally, you know, were figuring things out as we go. I mean, I knew the basics that you were supposed to make some money, that you were supposed to sell services for less than it costs you to provide them or make products, for example. But that pretty much was all I had, you know, so those basic rudimentary ideas about, you know, you solve a problem, you charge for it, it costs you less to do it, and you make some money in the middle. So we started in the UK, actually. My husband and I started a business in the UK just before the great financial crash of 2007 and '08, and we started a socially minded property development business. So with this idea that we had to take school leavers, lots of young men coming out of school, 15, 16, 17, no qualifications, no GCSEs. No chance of getting a job. So we started a program to help train them and learning in practical skills, and they became, you know, alongside others, part of our workforce. And we were buying small properties, renovating them. So they were getting a broad, you know, experience of doing all sorts of jobs— painting, decorating, plumbing, plastering, tiling, you know, you name it, gardening, they were doing it. And it was fantastic. It was great. The guys were getting trained, taking on more responsibility. We were loving the creative aspects of it and enjoying working, um, with this really unique group of people. And then the housing market fell apart in 2007. The great financial crash rolled around and we lost everything.

Wow.

We quickly realized sort of almost overnight that properties that we had bought that would derelict were now worth less than now when we finished them and they're now beautifully done up, they were worth less. So we were like, this is not a business model that's gonna be very sustainable. So we ended up having our first massive failure, you know, figuring out, wow, business is really interesting and great, but we, you know, we have failed to make any money and make it sustainable. So. That was a— that was my first, uh, my first venture into business, Anne, which was basically a disaster because we, we lost a lot of money and couldn't continue it. So, uh, it was a school of hard knocks for sure.

Bloody hell. I mean, I love that. So how did you— this is the hero's journey, right?

So much pain before any gain.

There we go. So now the challenge was there and Okay, so what happened? So you lost everything. How did you pick yourselves up from that?

What happened? Yeah, and we were newly married and I was pregnant with our first child at the time. And of course, you know, the thing you want to do when you're having a baby is, you know, make a nursery and nest and, you know, get everything ready and be secure. And here we were in this perilously difficult financial scenario. Um, and we had a small 2-up, 2-down terraced house of our own that was on a council estate in Winchester and realized we're going to have to get out of this house too, otherwise we're going to lose this house. So we should rent this house and every other house that we've managed to not— that's not sold and rent everything out to try and stop ourselves going bankrupt.

Bankrupt.

Uh, because that was looking very very, very likely. So we realized, okay, there's no, there's no future here in this moment in time. We can't stay in our home. Uh, what are we gonna do? So my husband says, well, I think we should pick ourselves up and take ourselves off to my family's farm. He has a, had a, his family are farmers and ranchers in Montana.

Wow.

He said, we'll go live with my family for a while. And we'll figure out what we're going to do. And I was like, okay, let's do it. Let's go. Let's, let's pack our bags and take a tiny baby and off we trot.

You said, right, we're going to burn the bridges, leave them behind me and go forward.

Yeah. So we left a whole lot of properties in, you know, debt and thought, well, let's see if we can just try and get it to cover its costs. Not try and keep our expenses as low as we can by not having any housing costs. Let's see if we can live off the income that we can make from renting our house and the difference between the mortgage and the rent, which the mortgage went really low because the interest rates went the opposite of what they've just done in the last year. We went really, really low. And so we arrived in Montana with a few suitcases and a baby. And no plan as to what we were going to do next.

Back up one second, because your husband, did he have any business experience? What was his background for— and it's great.

He had also been working in aid agencies for previous years. That's how we met. So we'd been doing the same kind of work. Um, he just had construction skills. So growing up on a farm, um, he was really, really handy. So he— I mean, that's sort of what precursed the idea of having a a property development company because he could do, he had all those skills and could do a lot of the work himself.

He knew how to do it and what was involved. Yeah.

Yes, exactly. So he had some very practical, useful skills. Me, not so much. And at that point, actually, it was, I really questioned my own sort of status as, am I, I, I just thought of myself as like a sidekick, as a helper. And I think a lot of women can think of themselves like that, right? We often put ourselves in the, I'll be in the background, I'll be the helper. I don't really have anything massively to contribute because I'm not feeling very confident.

Mm-hmm.

And not thinking I've got any acumen or any experience that's noteworthy. I'll hide behind someone else and, you know, potentially prop them up.

And especially when you're a new mother as well, that's huge change. Change continent, not just country, continent. Left behind an industry that you knew and jobs that you knew to the great unknown, literally in Montana. Visions of Brad Pitt and all those gorgeous flights.

River totally running through it in every way.

God, it's so beautiful. But then with when you become parents as well, because that's massive change. And as you say, like there's the confidence gap that can creep in. In that, even without a baby, and then when a baby comes, that can, you know, hormonal things.

Yeah, it makes you question who and what am I, who and what do I want? And then, and your identity is like getting sucked into like, well, I have mothering responsibilities, so how could I possibly think about doing anything else than maybe being a sidekick and a mother full-time and a sidekick on the side? So it was, it was a very challenging time for me. Very, very difficult to figure out who am I, what am I doing, what are we doing.

How long did it take you guys to kind of say, okay, once you'd settled and nested a little bit in Montana, that you decided, okay, this is what we're now going to try, and that you said, well, I'm going to get more involved, because that's super It's so great to hear you talking about all these things, Sarah, because I think a lot of women entrepreneurs in particular and who are mothers can really relate. And those also, those entrepreneurs who have businesses with their significant others. So it's— you're just a great package of everything. So next part of the Heroine story, go on.

We, I mean, we had an impetus in that we had no money. So there was urgency with like, well, we have to earn an income, you know. Yes, we had a, we had a roof over our heads, but we, you know, we had a few hundred pounds a month coming in. That was the difference between our mortgage and the rent we were getting on our house in the UK, and that was it. So that was not enough to feed and clothe and pay the bills for a family of 3 that we were now. So there was some sense of urgency where we have to figure out how to wait, how to to make an income. And the obvious thing, you know, that Jake started thinking about initially was, well, we're on a farm. How do we generate some, some income off the farm that isn't farming? You know, his parents were still active farmers doing their thing. Is there another opportunity to, to generate some revenue from the land? And because he had construction skills and was already thinking like, could I build something? When I first got to the farm, I remember thinking, gosh, this is so like being in Africa, which is where I had started my career in my 20s as an aid worker. Big, vast, huge plains, you know, beautiful rivers and mountains and all the rest of it. And I just kept thinking, wow, this is such a wild place. I wonder if we could recreate the African safari experience right here. And that's ultimately what we did. And Jake set about building it, and I thought about helping him. And that was how I definitely thought of myself initially, as I'm helping him on doing something that he can do. I thought of him as being the competent, capable one. Because he had skills. And I thought, I don't really have— I've got admin skills. I could be a good administrator, I thought of myself. And we'll see what happens and we'll see if we can earn an income. But it took me, probably to answer your question, it probably took me a couple of years of in that early stage of building something new, trying to build something new and trying to have guests come and stay with us, of really wrestling with my own identity in this sense of like, well, I'm helping him, we're building this thing, I'm a mother and I've got a baby. How do I, how do I do all this stuff? But it became really apparent really quickly that if we were going to build a business, a real business that was actually going to work, I couldn't think of myself as it being his business and I'm helping him. I had to think, I'm building this business, we're building a business, and we're in this together, and we have to manage our childcare, and we have to juggle our responsibilities and use all the skills and resources that we've got available to us. Otherwise, it isn't going to succeed and we're going to fail again.

What flipped that switch in your head and your heart, Sarah? Because I'm hearing it took a couple of years.

I was so unhappy.

Yeah, I hear you. Gosh. Yeah.

I really struggled. And, but that unhappiness was a, was such a struggle to say that out loud because nobody wants to say, I'm unhappy being a mother.

Yep.

I desperately wanted to be a mother. I really, and I'd had miscarriages and I, I, I, there was nothing I wanted more in the world than have a baby and to have a family. But yet here I am. I have a small family and I love my son Very, very much. I did not love being at home all day with him by myself.

I totally, totally identify with you because when I, I lost my job, I was illegally dismissed when I was pregnant on maternity leave. Took 2 years. I sued them and all that good stuff. But basically I was a stay-at-home mom for 2 years because I couldn't get a place in the crèche in France because they would give the places to working mothers. It was chicken and I was desperately miserable. Same thing as you. And I just, 'cause I said, love my daughter, love being mother, but it's, I'm more than a mother and I need to get back to work for my own personal. So tell us more, go on. So then—

I remember having a conversation with my dad one day and he reminded me, I mean, that I'd had quite a lot of education in my life. I had a master's degree, law degree, went to a girls' competitive grammar school in the UK. And he said, and I will never forget this, he said, you, you do know, you do know that, that you weren't educated just to stay at home. I mean, if you want to stay at home, you have the choice. The choice is yours. But you, that's the point. You have all this education, you have all this, you know, knowledge and skills and capabilities. And you get to make a choice. And I remember thinking, often we, we need permission from other people to do things.

Yeah.

I needed permission from my dad, of all people, to do things. And it was like he freed me and said, you go be who you're supposed to be in the world. Go figure it out. And you don't have to, like, know. who you are in the world, but I'm giving you permission and I'm reminding you, you have the freedom, you have the choice to go figure it out. And yes, we're not the richest people in the world and we don't have a lot of money, and I certainly don't come from money. But he said, you go, you go find your path in this world, you go do the things you want to go do. And it, it That was the, that was the switch in my brain. That was the thing that said, it's okay for me to want to not want to do this all day long and to want something else. It's okay for me to have big dreams and ambitions. It's okay for me to want to explore saving the world. It's okay. It's part, it's who I am. It's how I'm made. And I think often as women, we don't listen to ourselves. We— there are so many things that drown out our own voice.

Yes.

And we don't listen closely enough to— we don't listen to our bodies, we don't listen to our hearts, we don't listen to our— we certainly don't listen to our feelings because they are deceptive. And we've been told for generations that we are overly emotional, so we definitely don't want to listen to our feelings. But in so doing, We've so lost so much of who we are and who we can be and, and who, what we get to bring to the world. And that was a massive turning point for me. It said, you know, I get to figure out who I am. I don't have to put, I don't have to put myself in a box. I don't need to let anyone else put me in a box. I just need to listen to myself. I need to listen to my heart. I need to listen to the things that I'm passionate about, that I care about, and go follow them and see where they take me. And who knows where they'll take me?

Oh, I love it. It resonates so much with me. Really, it does. And so what happened then? Like, once you came to that realization and then you were saying earlier with Jake, you just, you started to sort out childcare and then free yourself up both mentally, emotionally, and then physically from childcare, from care duties during the day so you could do it. How did How did things develop and how did you, 'cause it's also so interesting working as a couple, how did that dynamic work?

Well, he was relieved. He was relieved when I, 'cause I felt like he had been waiting for me to get in the ring. He'd been waiting for me to step up and to, you know, like take ownership of this thing that we were building. 'Cause it was hard for him trying to build this thing, you know, with a little bit of help on the side, but with me like one foot over here and one foot over there and, Like not knowing how to throw my, where to throw my energy. And so it was a massive relief for him when I finally said, okay, I'm in, and I took charge. And it immediately became clear that I was the one out of the two of us that was sort of CEO potential. I was the one that had sort of the drive, the leadership, the ability to, you know, make things happen and sell things and excite people and, And I slowly discovered, started to discover my own drive and my own sort of vision for what could be possible and actually start to realize altogether we're actually really quite an interesting team because we've actually got very, very different skills from each other. And actually we could be quite a force if we harnessed harness those skills together. So it was, I remember, I remember questioning and thinking, I, I kept having this idea of like there being 2 coins, like we were 2 coins. And then I realized, oh, but 2 coins, you know, you can have a different face on each side of the coin, but it's one coin. And that figuring out how to sort of be one coin as a family, as a couple in business together, was really sort of the early years of our, our life together and, and figuring out starting and making a business work, you know, and even learning from the failures, learning from the things that didn't work. That was probably, you know, as valuable, um, in lots of ways, as terrible as it was.

Yeah.

Um, to have failures early on because you suddenly realize, well, we have to find ways to pick ourselves up and learn from that. So that same mistake or the same challenges, we don't get floored by them again. So how do we overcome and how do we figure that out?

So tell us how you built Under Canvas into the incredible company that it is and how it took off then once you both became the two sides of the coin and it was clear and you were both spinning in the same direction, let's just call it, because I love that analogy. Tell us more.

What happened next?

I'm like here with the moon.

More failure. More failure happened next in that we built a small-scale tented camp on his parents' farm in very, very rural Montana in the middle of nowhere. Jake's dad says that they don't live in the middle of nowhere, but they can see middle of nowhere from the top of the, from the roof of their barn. Which is pretty much the truth. And so what we realized was we had a really interesting product because we were getting phone calls all the time from people saying, we love your— they, you know, we had these pictures of beautiful tents up on the website. We love your tents. You know, they were amazing. Where did you get them from? And of course, Jake had designed them and had them manufactured, and because that was his skill. And, you know, we kept thinking nobody wants to come and stay. Nobody wanted to come and stay where we'd put these beautiful tents, but they did love the tents. So it was like this sense of like, I think we're onto something, but it's a hit and a miss all at the same time. And that for me was like my first, now as a venture capitalist, I realized we did not have product market fit. We had a great product, um, but it wasn't a fit because we had it in a place where people didn't want to come. So no one was prepared to pay money to come and stay with us. And we had a few people, you know, we had handfuls of people come and stay over those first couple of years, but it was, it was not gonna be life sustaining. It was not gonna be anything other than a very minute lifestyle business.

Mm-hmm.

And that was not really even gonna pay the bills. So it wasn't viable. So we had to pivot. We had to keep taking what we had and transform it into something else. So we transformed ourselves from a small tented camp in rural Montana into a tented event company because people were asking us, where can we get your tents? So we eventually realized, oh, we could bring the tents to you.

Hmm.

Could take your— take our tents to your wedding or your family reunion or your party or your gathering and we could create a little tented camp just for you. So we started doing that next, which became a huge hit, was, was a really great little business with, within fairly short order, we were doing, you know, $1 million of revenue with that business. But weirdly, we still felt like something was wrong.

Hmm.

I mean, we'd crossed a threshold, you know, that we were, had a profitable business. We'd crossed the threshold, you know, 2 or 3 or 4 years doing this. And realized, I don't know that this is the thing. It's like we've got something, but I don't know that we've got like the, you know, like finding a diamond in the rough. We felt like, well, maybe I've found a nice piece of copper or something, but I haven't. I think there's something else there and we just haven't quite figured it out yet.

It's like ongoing conversations between you, or was it something where you kind of sat down and then had a strategic meeting? And said, okay, let's look at this and where are we going? Or was it gradual or more?

I think it was, it was interesting because I think what we kept finding was the business didn't feel controllable. And by that I meant it was very difficult to market that business. We literally had to keep waiting for the phone to ring, for people to ask us to come and bring our tents to them. And whatever I tried and however many pictures I put online of beautiful tents, There was still no way to drive the sale. So there was no clear pathway to owning our own destiny. So it felt like the business is gonna do what the business is gonna do. And some years it's gonna look like this and other years it's gonna look like this and I can't control it.

Hmm.

I've got no powers within me to determine our own destiny here. And no sense of, well, if I do this, we can see growth in that way and there'll be some direct correlations. And so we started to just feel like, well, this business is great. This business can keep doing what it's doing. It's fine. But we think there's some, there's something else here and we think we could be the commanders of our own destiny a bit more. And build something that we had a bit more control over. And we were still thinking like, we're still wanting to do more in the world. I think that was sort of the big impetus really. It was like, this is nice, this is a great business, but we still feel like we could contribute more and we're not quite sure that we're doing that yet with the product that we've got. So our sort of third and final pivot sort of, we were 3 or 4 years in now, um, was to create a tented hotel experience outside of a national park. And so what we realized was, well, rather than taking the tents to the people, to the people who were calling us, maybe we could put the tents where lots of visitors already were.

Mm-hmm.

So people were already going to national parks and already, you know, looking for places to stay. Maybe we could Take the safari experience that we originally were trying to create and put it in a different place, a place where people actually might want to go? And could we create a new way of people being outside and being in the outdoors? And could we show that it was possible to do development, to build a hotel without it being super impactful to the earth, without using—

Yeah.

of power, without using lots of water, without being harmful in any way? Could we, could we be impactful in the local communities that we were in? And could we start to feel like this business actually contributes in some way? And so that business model ultimately became Under Canvas. And Under Canvas today now is still one of the largest glamping companies in the US with locations outside of national— large-scale tented hotels outside of national parks across the country. But it was, it was strange because it took us— I think some people often think when you have a great business idea, it's, you know, it comes to you instantly and you have this great product or great business and off you go. And off very, very often businesses Pivot and they reiterate and they reiterate and they reiterate until you end up with a product that really, really works and that people want, that you've got product market fit. And we started in Yellowstone in Montana. So probably one of the most famous national parks in the country minus Kevin Costner, unfortunately. Where is Kevin when you need him? But I did, it was funny because that first year, Kevin Costner also made a film called Field of Dreams.

Yes.

And in that, in that film, he said, you know, the character Ray Kinsella, the character says, if you build it, they will come. And that first year we were wandering around Yellowstone, and I was constantly saying to myself as a, as a mantra, really as a prayer, if you build this thing, they will come, the guests will come. And I was like, they will come, they will come. So yeah.

So can we consider you guys the originators of glamping worldwide? I mean, are you guys really the ones who, who, who birthed the concept?

I definitely can't take that claim to fame. Um, there were little pockets of glamping all over the— in the UK actually was probably, probably one of the most advanced places in the world that had probably the highest concentration of little bits of glamping. The only way— place where it was ever large scale was we saw it at festivals. You saw it at music festivals, and that was sort of like a pop-up experience, and then it would disappear. So I guess we were probably the pioneers of any kind of large-scale permanent tented hotel kind of experience. There was nothing like it in the US. Just a couple of other small little places with a few tents like we had originally started with. And nothing even like that in the UK either. Just sort of, you know, a lot B&B type, you know, somebody has a nice tent in their garden or farm thing and nothing upscale either. So we definitely, definitely played a role in it becoming very much more mainstream much more a commercial proposition rather than a hobbyist type thing, and much more helped it definitely get on the map, um, with being an industry in its own right. That was one of the trouble— the difficulty for me when we were sort of starting the business and later on trying to, to raise capital for it was glamping wasn't an industry that people recognized.

You were a new Segment. You were basically category creators.

And it's hard, it's hard when you're the category creator because people don't believe that it's a thing yet. And it's quite hard to have to convince people that the industry is a thing and you are a thing all at the same time. And that can be really tough and demoralizing. And one of the reasons I ended up becoming a VC myself So tell us more about the funding journey.

So you self-funded up all the way, Sarah, until you sold, and then please tell everybody the fabulous exit story and then how you moved into VC. But tell us more about how you funded. You mentioned a little bit of funding journey for Under Canvas.

Yeah, we bootstrapped for a very, very long time. So Jake's family gave us a few thousand dollars initially when we first got to the US, but We also had to live so that there was not a lot of money. I, I levered multiple interest-free credit cards when we first got to the States, and I was balancing balances on one card and transferring them to another card and transferring to another card. So I was, oh, it was a very scary era of our lives for sure. But we effectively, you know, were cobbling together bits of cash and you know, thankfully under Canvas, the event business started to bring in some cash. And under Canvas, its first year in Yellowstone was profitable. It's in its first year, which was extraordinary. So we literally plowed everything we had in, back into the business. And I think it was probably within our second or, our second year when we were in Yellowstone, I managed to convince a very small local bank Um, in Montana to give us a very small equipment loan so that we could buy some more equipment. And convincing the bank that I had collateral was really hard. But the, the amazing bankman, I'm still friends with him today. He, um, he was happy to accept that tents could be collateral.

Wow.

Nobody else was interested in tents being collateral because what are you gonna, what's the bank gonna do with, you know, 50 tents? What are you gonna do with it? Nothing. So he totally took a risk on us and gave us a little equipment loan. And then we managed to, you know, we would show we could pay that back and he gave us a little bit more. And so we managed like that for quite a long time, self-funding and with a little bit of debt and a supportive bank manager who had some vision was how we managed to sort of build them. multimillion-dollar revenue company. But we got to the point, I think we were about 6 years in, and I suddenly realized we weren't going to, you know, I realized what we had. We had 3 tented camps by this point, 2 in Montana and 1 in Utah, all outside national parks. And I realized, gosh, there's such an opportunity here. We could be everywhere. And we have a great model. The numbers are really good for each location. We create amazing experiences. Our guests get educated about water usage and power usage, and this is great. But I realized if we're gonna keep growing, we're gonna be so— it's gonna be so slow if all we've got is profit to be able to plow back in and trying to convince the banks to help us with a little bit of debt every time was really complicated. So I figured I've got to do something to get more money into the business so we can grow fast. It was, it was literally the case of, I know I need some fuel in the tank and we're constantly running on empty and we're making it all work, but it's really hard. And if we could just put some fuel in, we could go a heck of a lot faster.

Mm-hmm.

So I went out to try and raise some capital, um, not having a clue about how you raise capital, not having any understanding about the metrics that are interesting for investors, what people are looking for, how, you know, the language, the terminology, the acronym, you know, the acronyms, just, I hadn't been in that world. I'd come from nonprofit aid agencies. And so it, I hadn't had any sort of really banking exposure. So I was just really, really green. And I didn't have a tech business. So, you know, most VCs at that time, so we're, you know, we're now 2014, 2015, most investors just really looking at tech. It's fast growing, high user base, asset light. I was not asset light. I was land and I was tented hotels and no collateral. So I wasn't real estate and I just, it was really hard to find a fit. And I kept encountering VCs who were bullies, who were sharky, who I didn't like. Um, and being— I just kept— felt like I would— every time I got in the room, I was being dismissed like I was a silly little schoolgirl who didn't know what she was doing. And I didn't know what— I mean, it was, you know, partly true in a sense of I, I didn't know a lot.

But you knew your business.

I had a great business.

Exactly.

$7 or $8 million of revenue a year. Super profitable. Yeah, exactly. From scratch, I had built $7 million of revenue with zero from— so that's, that's a big deal.

Yes.

Um, but that wasn't how I was treated and that wasn't how I was communicated with. And I just was dismissed over and over and over and over again until, um, I met a woman and I was winning an award. A magazine company presented me with an award for what we had built. And I met another female entrepreneur at the award ceremony who was also giving a keynote speech. And she had, she had a travel company and she had just raised $25 million. So of course I went up to her at the end of the thing and I said, tell me.

Yeah.

And she, I told her about our company. She said, oh, that sounds fantastic. Sounds amazing. Let me make some introductions for you. I know lots of people. Let me make some introductions. So she started making introductions, which was, which was amazing because suddenly the— because she was saying I was legitimate, I was legitimate. Some other people started to take me seriously. Our introductions are everything. I, I, I hate it, but it's true. It is true. You know, getting in front of the people that you need to be in front of very often requires a network. And often women don't have that network, which is why it's doubly hard for women to get funded. But she made calls, she opened her little black book to me, which she didn't have to do, but it was, you know, it was amazing. And I started having conversations with people, investors who were interested in the travel space and having conversations, which was a game changer because I suddenly was now actually having real conversations with people who were getting what I was doing and liked the space. But I'm still meeting sharks. I'm still meeting people who I'm not loving the terms that I'm being offered and I'm feeling threatened. And I remember we, after about 18 months, we finally got a term sheet for $7 million. It was a very big deal. And I remember thinking, we desperately need this money if we're gonna keep growing. I'm really out of cash. I can see payroll looming and cash not being in the right place at the right time. I need to take this money, but the guy's an asshole.

Yeah.

Something, we're in our diligence. I had signed the term sheet. We were doing the deal. They were doing diligence on us. And now I'm realizing you also have to be doing diligence on them whilst they're doing diligence on you. And I called him up at one point in the process, and I called him to say, I have a problem in the business. I just need you to know about it. I'm sorting it out. Something has happened, but I can fix it. The lawyers have told me that we'll be good. It'll just take some time and some money to sort it out. But I'm sorting it out. And this guy went ballistic at me. It was like, you know, the world had fallen apart and that it was ending. And he, he threatened me and basically said, if you don't sort that out, it's gonna be very bad for you. It will be your downfall if you don't sort that out. And I was like, what?

That's like, and that's over the top. What? Like, Okay.

It just was like, I, I don't know what happened here. I was, I was calling him expecting to hear, what do you need? How can we be helpful? Is there anyone in our network or our lawyers or our, you know, Rolodex that you need from us to help you fix and solve this problem? I was expecting, you know, yes, I was telling them so that they were informed and that they could, you know, look into it themselves. but also I was expecting support and I was expecting someone to come alongside me and, you know, be helpful and, you know, more experienced than me at dealing with these sort of difficult kinds of things that happen in businesses all the time. And I didn't get that. And that was like another light bulb moment for me. It was like, wow, this— I am not Sure, if you're not supportive right now and we haven't closed our deal, I'm not sure this is gonna get any better. And we were already stuck with a term sheet that I didn't love. I didn't think the terms were very great. I thought they were quite predatory and, you know, were going to see us lose quite a lot of power in our own business. So we were already kind of uncomfortable. And it just was one of those moments that was like, a nail in the coffin with like, Sarah, you would be crazy to do this. You know, that inner voice that says, don't do it. And I'm staring it down and I'm going, but $7 million, what are we gonna do if we don't put this money in the business? And it was like, if you do, what's gonna happen if you do put it in the business? You're gonna be stuck. And it was that moment that I thought to myself, If we ever manage to sell this business for anything of any worth at any point in time, I'm gonna invest in other women. And I, I don't think it has to be like this. I don't think you have to be treated like this. I don't think it has to be sharky. I don't think it has to be win-lose. Every VC I'd ever met was very much focused on, well, we get to win.

You don't.

It was like, you're the entrepreneur. Who do you think you are? I'm like, the one that's gonna create all the value for you. And so I just never felt like this was a very equal relationship or dynamic. And I just felt like, I don't think it has to be like that. I don't think women need to feel like that with building businesses. And I think there's a better way. And I think I think probably I'm not alone with all the things I don't know. And I don't think that's unusual. I don't think I'm that unusual. And maybe it can be different. And so that moment is the reason I'm a venture capitalist today because that moment made me think more women have to get in the ring. More women have to stand up and say, Uh, we're gonna invest not just with our mouths, but with our wallets also, and, and make a difference in what gets built and how it gets built and how money moves around the world. Um, and how we, how we use money as power, because I was experiencing power in a very not pleasant way. towards me. And I don't believe I'm any less a human being than that gentleman was, and any less deserving of respect or kindness or, you know, decency. And, um, I— that was the moment.

I love it, because these are the, these are the light bulb moments in our lives when, as you say, what I love about how you tell that your experience is that it— when it came to the crunch, A, they kind of unmasked themselves. So that was first, and you were able—

Good thing for me.

Yeah. You were able to see the red flags and say, oh, oh, this is not a good fit. But then number 2, it's like that it has really bolstered you and pushed you to— motivated you to change things for other women entrepreneurs on their way up. And I think that's like, that's so important to hear because I want more women to like, like you to say, yeah, as you say, it's a call and call to arms in the positive sense. So tell us the, like how you then, did you find another VC? What was the end of the funding?

Pulled the plug, did the scary thing, pulled the plug, took some abuse verbally, emotionally. And I stood in front of my team who all knew we were closing this round. And I stood there and I had to tell them I just pulled the plug on the $7 million that we all knew we needed. And I cried. I literally stood there in front of my whole team. There was about 25, 30 people in the room at the time, and I bawled my eyes out. And you know when you do the ugly cry?

Yeah.

And the cry when you're, you've got a massive lump in your throat and you're like the sob. It was that kind of cry. It was not like little tear gently falling down the cheek, you know, let's dab it. No, it was a mess. It was a hot, terrible mess. And I was devastated. And I was devastated for them because I thought like, well, I've put the company in jeopardy. But that really galvanized the company because what it did was it set the tone for who we were, who we wanted to be, our values, the things that mattered to us. And it really galvanized everybody. And I think there was not one person in that room that day that didn't say to me, you did the right thing. You did the right thing. You did the right thing. And, um, I, you know, I felt bad because of what I'd done, but, but I also felt so proud of, okay, it gave me the courage to get back up and go, all right, I'm not done. I'm not out. We're not giving up. I'm getting back out there. And it, it must have been within maybe 2 weeks, a week, 2 weeks of that moment, I literally had out of the blue an email from a broker in San Francisco that said, I think we could help you raise money. Would you like us to help you? And I was like, well, good luck with that. Like, I don't have a whole lot of hopes that you can help me. But if you think you can, why not? Knock yourself off. Go, go for it. I'm having a little breather. I'm giving myself a little bit of space right now to figure out what I do next. But you go for it. And within a month, maybe 6 weeks, he was introducing me to fantastic investors who I, um, he was so thoughtful about. Let's think about what kind of money you need in the, in the business and who might be the right fit. And maybe venture capital's not the right fit for your business at this stage. And let's look at some debt. Let's look at some mezzanine lenders. And he widened my world to, there's not just one type of funder. There's many types of money because there's many stages of a business's life and different people play in different stages. He made introductions. I told him what was super important to me in terms of values. I had told him my experiences and I had told him this, I am absolutely not having this. So he went away and was much more thoughtful then about, okay, who might be a right, who might be a good fit for Sarah and her business, what capital structure might be a good play, and introduced me to 3 or 4 lenders and investors who were all an infinite— infinitely better fit. And all of whom said, oh, you don't just need $7 million in the business because you're doing this. Why don't we put $15 to $30 million in the business? And I was like, Okay, maybe let's do that. So I ended up giving a fraction of the company away that I was gonna give away with that previous deal. We put a whole load more debt into the business. So I did a debt and an equity deal at that moment in time. We'd signed a term sheet for $30 million, a little bit of equity and a lot of debt. And we were happy taking risks. We've been taking risks for a long time already. So we were really happy to put debt in, more debt into the business and take the risk because we were used to it already. So that's what we did. And within a year of doing that deal, I had invested the capital that we'd taken. I'd opened new camps. I went back out to raise more capital and along came a buyer that said, we actually want this business. So We'd like to buy it from you if you were open to selling it, which was a shock because I wasn't expecting to sell when we sold. But, um, it was quite the whirlwind, to say the least.

Wow. And please, are you comfortable sharing? Because it is in the public domain what you sold the business for.

Yeah, we were lucky enough to sell the business for over $100 million.

I mean, For those of you who can't see me, I am doing major claps because absolutely phenomenal. It is.

It was quite the leap from, um, having a failed business and no home to live in and collecting food stamps, um, and living in, you know, tiny—

Oh my God. And you know what, I think what I love about your journey, for both of you, is that you were really the right partners for each other to support each other on that journey with the complementary skills, and that you were Tenacious, persistent, hardworking, never gave up, and listened to your intuition and trusted yourself and your instincts, which is such an important message, especially to everybody here. So now fast forward, what did you do? Did you have a bit of a break after you sold?

No.

Or did you kind of like, okay, now I'm gonna go and start my next thing, which is gonna be a VC fund in South Africa? And how did you land in South Africa? I mean, let's go there.

Yeah, I stayed CEO for 1 year post the sale. But we, I already knew what we were gonna do next. I already, because we'd already had this sort of light bulb moment and Jake and I had been talking about it on and off for years as to, you know, because the light bulb happened several years before the sale. So we already had an idea in our minds. I think the only thing we weren't clear about was how or where. We knew we wanted to sort of set up a fund. We knew we wanted to help support other women. Jake loved the idea of being able to be involved in many different businesses, not just one business, being able to contribute lots of different skills and learnings in a variety of contexts and look at a whole load of different industries. And when we looked at the VC space. And remember, we were coming from an aid background, development background.

Yep.

And our children, you know, were 10 and 7, and, you know, had grown up through building under canvas. So now we've got slightly older children. We just felt like, well, we are ready for another adventure as a family. We're ready to contribute in a way where we think we could potentially do the most good. And we knew we wanted to invest in women. And we came for a conference down in Cape Town back in 2019, fell in love with the city. I obviously had fallen in love with Africa a long, long, long, long time ago. And we realized just how little venture capital was being deployed on the African continent. Last year, something like $230-odd billion was deployed in the US, and the equivalent in Africa, the whole continent, not just one country, but the whole continent, was less than $5 billion. So massive amounts of difference in investment amount.

Yeah.

And so we just felt like whilst we don't have huge amounts of of money to invest. Maybe the money we do invest could be, could go further, could do more, could be more impactful if we focused. And maybe we could lever our skills and learnings and networks and open up doors like that woman did for me and open up networks for women in Africa to also build and grow and scale businesses. Because I still firmly believe that you know, businesses are what grow economies. Businesses are what build the world. Businesses are how we drive change. And they still are the best vehicle for creating dignified employment and advancement and everything. So we thought, well, let's roll our sleeves up and base ourselves in Cape Town most of the time, but travel around the continent. And see, see who we meet and see who we find and see what happens.

When did you set up Enigma Ventures? When did you guys set it up officially?

The very end of 2019.

Wow. So just before COVID landed. Just before the pandemic. Thank God. So you arrived in Cape Town just before COVID and all of that?

Yeah. So I had a little bit of déjà vu and I was like, every time I try and start a new business, there's some kind of global meltdown.

Got this, we got this t-shirt, let's get the next one. Okay, and so what is your investment pieces? So what do you have, any sector, like how big is the fund, what's the investment piece? And so, so to those women entrepreneurs who are listening and who are in Africa who would love to reach out, tell us, tell them more and tell us all more.

Yeah, so we are sector agnostic, which means that we look at all sorts of different businesses in all sorts of different shapes and sizes. We're usually the first check-in. So we're the early, really, really early risk takers making a bet on a business. So we write seed checks typically anywhere from sort of $250,000 up to a million. We've done our, we've just closed our first fund, our first fund fully funded. It's, we did 14 investments through our first fund. And we're busy raising our second fund now to hopefully keep, continue to keep investing in women across the continent. And we, I love it. I really, really love it. I love, and I wrote a book during the pandemic, which I know we'll get to, but one of the things I realized as I've met so many entrepreneurs over the last 4 years is that the problems that I thought I had that were unusual and unique to me, I now realize are the same for so many women, that we struggle with the same things, you know, not even just the same practical business issues and the scaling pains and realities, but also the same mental issues.

Yes.

I see the same mindset issues for women, you know, across, across the continent, across, you know, even in Europe, you know, everywhere. It's the same, uh, whether you're in Africa, Europe, America, or Middle East, doesn't matter. Um, we all have, you know, issues with mindsets and things that hold us back. Um, and that has been fascinating for me to see, um, as someone who thought, oh, I don't, I don't know, I don't know everything I need to know, and I wish I did. And realizing, gosh, I wasn't unusual. There are so many women who were just like me. But that also made me think, well, if there are so many women who were just like me, there are so many more other women who could be successful just like me. Because, you know, it's just a little bit of knowledge. It's just a little bit of tenacity. It's just a little bit of the right help at the right time, opening the right doors for you at the right time. And maybe we could help do some of those things for others.

So as we wrap up, tell us more about the book. When, when is it coming out? I'm so excited. Like, I've had a first glance. I'm so excited. It's like, because Sarah writes the way you hear, it's compelling. I just read the first 2 paragraphs. I said, hell yeah, this has gotta—

this, this is really my type of book.

I cannot wait. So tell us when it's coming out. Can you give us the title, or is that possible?

Yes. Yes, yes, yes. It's called Thinking Bigger: A Pitch Deck Formula for Women Who Want to Save the World. And it's coming out for preorder on April 1st. So you'll be able to order it on April 1st from anywhere that you might buy books.

Fantastic.

And it'll be out in print on October 1st. So we've got a few months before it's out in print, but it'll be open for preorder very soon.

So what I want to say to everybody is I will get the links from Sarah. I will add them to the show notes to make sure that you guys can go preorder because we want to make this into the bestseller list. Okay, this is where the network comes in. It's very important, all the preorders. Please, I want to one day write a book. I'm not there yet, so I will hope to follow in Sarah's wonderful footsteps. But please, when you're listening to this, let's— I can tell you because I've read the first 2 chapters, it is like, oh, I could probably sit down and read it in a day, in a day or a half, because I will gobble it. I was like, when I was reading you, I was like just gobbling your words, because gobbling— and to those who don't understand that term, it's just like eating up every single word really quickly. I couldn't get it in fast enough because it resonates so much. And your authenticity, Sarah, your practical key tips, it's all there. And I just can't wait for people to get it in their hands. So whether they are women entrepreneurs or male entrepreneurs who need to understand the female psyche when it comes to fundraising and pitch. And the same for the investors. I think this can be a bible for everybody in the sense of to the accelerators, to the women founders, to the investors, to anybody who is in this funding world and who wants to help change the funding game like you do. You are like I do. We are. This is like, I am so, so excited. So Sarah, how— what's the best way for people to contact you in future, like with Enigma and with the book? And because I will be sharing those links in the show notes.

Thank you. Um, yes, I can be found in 2 places. enigmaventures.com is our fund website. So that's Enigma with a Y because we're always so mysterious. Uh, E-N-Y-G-M-A, enigmaventures.com. And I have a new website, uh, which will also host my book, which Which is coming soon, sarahhdusick.com.

Brilliant. So you've heard it first. Sarah, I cannot thank you enough for telling us your whole story up until now, because this is book number 1. There's going to be more coming out of you, I can tell. I cannot wait for the world to hear it and for the women entrepreneurs to hear it. I cannot wait for the world to hear the stories of those first 40 that you guys have invested in and are helping in Africa. And I'm so excited that you have chosen to focus on Africa because I know the potential that is so enormous. Africa is the—

Very.

Biggest global— like, it's the powerhouse that's coming. It's the youngest population in the world. There's so much innovation, there's so much potential and energy, and you're there at the beginning of this. So I cannot wait to see how you guys with Enigma Ventures and everything you do and through your book and all of your advocacy work, because you do amazing advocacy. Sarah, I can't wait to see how you shape things up in the funding game. So thank you so much for being with us today. And everybody, you will have the links to Sarah's websites in the show notes. And please do, if you are, if you're an LP listening, you heard her, she's raising funds too. She can't say it, but I can. So you want to reach out to her, that could be an interesting conversation to have. And I love doing that on podcast episodes. The VC and their new VC fund. And I was like, well, when you come on the episode, I can say it. They were laughing. This is— oh, you can't, but I can legally. I have no problem. So I can say it. So when you see the links, everybody sign up, preorder Sarah's book. You will want to read it. I can tell you, I really mean it sincerely. And I don't endorse books For everybody, but this one I'm like, hell yeah, I can't wait for the world to see it. Sarah, thank you for being our honored guest today, and I want to give you an open invitation to come back in X number of time when you're further down the road with Enigma, when the book is a raging success, which it's going to be, and it's impacting the girls and the women who are starting those businesses. I can't wait to see how this all rolls forward because I know you're just going to be continuing to make an incredible light on this world. So thank you for being with us today.

Thanks, Anne. Appreciate it.

So as we listen to what Sarah said, what an incredible message. I want to share some of the key takeaways that I took away from this conversation so that we really regroup and learn as much as we can. Because boy, what a roller coaster, from struggling first-time entrepreneur to serial entrepreneur to exiting business, funding the business, and then setting up a VC fund and writing a book now. I mean, she's an incredible person, as you can see. So some of the key things that really resonated with me, and I think could be helpful for us to think about as we listen to the end of this, is one, great entrepreneurs can come from anywhere. You heard Sarah, she was a lawyer, had a master's. She was not an expert in the property trade. She didn't know anything about the industry that she came into and to build and to create the category that she was in. So know that you don't have to come from that particular background to set up your business. So I'm also— that's my case too. So, you know, you don't have to have a background in something to build a successful business and to really make a difference. So I think that's an important takeaway. Another one is how to be resilient. Oh my gosh, how many times did she pull herself back up from different types of adversity, from financial, emotional, geographical, just all the change that she had to deal with. And what I loved was her key tips on how to quieten that inner voice and what she was saying about getting rid of some of that self-doubt. To listen to your heart, listen to your body, and to trust yourself. And I loved those key messages that she was sharing. So I think those are very important messages from, from Sarah. Also, I love the parts of the story that she shared about building her business with her significant other. And sometimes, you know, investors can really not look upon companies built by 2 partners life partners in a favorable way. Uh, what Sarah shared was how their roles shifted, how in the beginning it was really her husband who was taking the lead, and then when she made the decision to really step up, it turned out that she was the one who's going to be the CEO and use the business brain. So it, it's really important. It's, it's great to hear how a, a duo of partners, life partners, can make it a success and how they got through it together and supported each other. I think there's wonderful messages to come through. I don't know about you, but the 4th thing that was a big takeaway for me was her story of how her father literally reminded her to say, hey Sarah, you've got everything you need to succeed. You have the education, The knowledge, the skills, the capability. So all you have to do is like, free, get up. You see, I loved what she said. She said, you have the choice and the freedom to go and do it, so just go and do it. And, and he— his conversation to her reminded and resonated with her in her inner self to say, yes, I can go and I can do this. So, you know, sometimes there must be someone as well in your group, in your friend group, in your colleagues, in your network. Sometimes that inspiration and that little gentle push can come from outside. So listen, take it on, and when it resonates with you, really listen to it and just go for it. You know, when you need that extra bit of inspiration. I also love the 5th takeaway. I love was all about pivot. Pivot, pivot. How they pivoted so many times to get to a market product product market fit and then realize well is this business viable the way it is? Yes, we're making money. We're making lots of money. But is it us chasing the business or the business dictating us? And how are we going to have more security? So that was interesting. And I also loved her funding journey and how she did. Shared about the icky conversations with that investor and how it really just fired her up to, to become a venture capitalist herself. Because she said, I don't want other women to go through that rubbish that I had to go through. And really, really waking that up inside of her, I think that was really very important. And how she turned down that $7 million check because it was wrong investment and was vulnerable to her team and they all rallied around her and the DNA of the company became even stronger as a result. That is strong, authentic leadership at its best. So I loved that part of her story. And also in the funding journey, she shared about how, you know, be open to different sources of funding. It's not all VC. It may not be the right fit. She talked about debt-equity mix of it. She had more debt than equity and how things flipped as soon as you had the right investors. Things got better and better. So really doing your homework, doing the due diligence on them as much as they do it on you was important tip that she shared. But really like how building those relationships and getting the advice advice from that woman who opened up her Rolodex and helped her. That was so amazing to see that solidarity and the importance of the networks, opening the networks to each other. I loved that part of her story and how it turned into— when she was looking for more funding, it turned into an offer and she sold— like, they sold the business for $100 million. How amazing is that? So wow. And then the last thing is, I would say, Stick to your truth. That is what she kept saying. Trust yourself, trust yourself, stick to your truth and give back your way. And that's how she chose to become a VC and to start up their fund in South Africa. So what amazing, amazing learnings. And at the end, you learned all about Enigma Ventures. You learned about her upcoming book. I mean, overall, what a journey. I would just say there's so many great learning points, and I would encourage you to share this, share this episode with the founders in your network or the funders in your network, the people who need to hear it, because she has so much wisdom. I could have gone and spoken for hours with Sarah, and I'm so, so glad that we had this conversation. So thank you for being with us today. We look forward to having you on The next one, our next one is going to be very exciting because it's just me and we have something nice in store for you from to to talk about International Women's Month, not Women's Day. We celebrate the month at Global Investor and at Investor Podcast. So between now and then, have an incredible rest of your day, rest of your week, and remember: think big, believe in yourself, and ask for more money or give more money, whichever it is for you. Enjoy and take care. See you next time.