In Conversation With Ian Cleary

Sa.

Where am I sitting against? I am actually in. I just left the office because we had a very long day in the office. I was thinking of doing the recording from the office, but right now I'm doing it from the. From pretty much my living room in my house. I just put a black curtain, so it's a little easier. Very good.

I literally just started being invited to speak at a conference in India today. I'll tell you exactly who it was. Let me see.

That's lovely.

Indian Digital Marketing Conference. That's in Mumbai on 27 June.

Lovely.

Maybe I'd like to go.

You know, that would be lovely in the middle of summers, but. But I'm sure you'll get by.

Yeah, I don't mind a bit of heat, you know. So how's everybody? How's all the family?

Family is great. Everybody's. Everybody's fine. Everybody's busy doing what they. The girls are growing up super fast and. Are you going to be at the social media camp?

No, I'm not. No, no.

Okay. Yes, Yes, I will be going. We're. We're actually doing a documentary on them as the largest Canadian conference for social media. So I'm taking my video team and we're going to do a documentary around the speakers and who all are coming and all of that.

Great.

Yeah. So should we get. Should we get started? I have some lovely questions to ask you.

Oh, perfect. Yeah.

Not at all. Not at all. Thank you for. Thank you for taking the time out for us. So between. So the Internet moguls, you know, is basically the agency that we started, but now we also go around the world interviewing Internet moguls and picking their minds to tell people what to do. Especially because we do work in two very diverse continents, from Vancouver to New Delhi, India, we see so much stuff happening in the west, which can be replicated in places like India. And they catch fire really fast. You know, a good idea. They're super hardworking people. So my intention is always to bring the best minds to these people in this part of the world. So tell us a little. You know, my first question always when we get started is, what's your story? Who is Ian? Where were you born? Your favorite hobby? Your first girlfriend? Share it all with us.

Okay, I'll spill the beans. Yeah.

Spill the beans. Yes.

Yeah. My name is Ian Cleary. I am based in Dublin, born and bred in Dublin. And from there I still left school. I started working in a factory making ties. So ties and dressing gowns. That's why I started Initially, and I'd done that for about a year and I ended up working in the government for a couple of years and I got bored. I went traveling around Australia and then I spent a few months traveling around India. Oh yeah. So it was like 25 years ago. I arrived in Calcutta, then I went down to Madras and went up to Bangalore and went across to Delhi and out of Taj Mahal and just amazing experience. And. And then when I came back, I started getting into computers and I got into IT and I worked in technology for about 15 years in software companies. And then I wanted to do something different, so I left. And then I started doing social media consultancy and social media training. I just drifted into it.

Okay.

And then I'm international and I didn't have a good product idea. So I said I'd create a blog, build an audience, build relationships with all the top social media and Internet marketing influencers, then aim to get on stage and become one of those influencers and build a business on the back of that. So that's how I ended up with a popular blog and I made friends with all the top influencers and then I started speaking at events and that helped build the business. So me as a person, what else do I. Well, I have three kids, married with three kids. I work down the NY garden, so I'm actually in the opposite end of my garden at the moment. I'm a sports fanatic. I love sports. Today I was at the gym. So typically what I'll do is I'll start at 6 in the morning. If it was 5:30 this morning, at 12 o', clock, I'll go to the gym. So go to the gym and then I come back and then I'll have some great conversations with people like Abby. But I love sports, so I do cycling, I do gym, I do kickboxing, and I recently started doing some gymnastics in the evenings, just one night a week. But like two years ago I did break dancing for a while because I wanted to do something different. So I like to try different sports just to keep fit. And that's what's. That's my meditation. When you want to get a break away from work and break away from everything, sports does it for me.

Wow, that is so lovely. So you're saying that 25 years ago when you came to India, you look pretty much the same, right?

Oh, exactly.

That is insane. And I remember the first time we met, that's the first thing I complimented you on, on how fit you look.

Oh, thank you very much. I love my fitness I think as an entrepreneur, you know, you work hard and I work, I do work hard and I work long enough hours, but I need to keep fit. If you want to be an entrepreneur on a long term basis, you need to keep that fitness. I think too many entrepreneurs go, I'll sacrifice my family, I'll sacrifice healthy food, I'll sacrifice my health. Longer term, you can't do that, so you need to, what you need to me, what I focus on is can I be more productive with my time? 100% waste time. We end up spending really long hours not being productive. So I try to be as productive as possible during the time I have so that it still do have time for my family and, you know, sport that I like.

That's, that's lovely. So you're saying that you, you know, for many Internet marketers, the Internet and social media marketing just about happened. They stumbled upon it. But for. You said that you were a man with a vision, you had a plan, you said, I want to start a blog, I want to start talking to an audience, I want to build an audience, start talking to influencers and finally get on stage. So you lay the vision out there for yourself and you made it happen.

Yeah. And I suppose initially I stumbled into social media, but that was just doing local training within Ireland. But then I want to do something international and I had a vision of me being on stage at these conferences and I knew to do that I couldn't just build a blog from Ireland. I would have to travel and meet people. Like the way you get out and meet people.

Absolutely.

Connection. Because we've actually met in person.

Absolutely.

No matter which video you do, you know, we meet in person, you get.

That stronger connection 100%.

So I knew I had to get onto a plane to meet other fellow, you know, other influencers in social media. And then I basically followed them around to different conferences, build a relationship, and always looked at how I can add value, how can I help them? Because everybody is looking for something from the influencer. So if I think how can I help them, then the relationship is very different. And that worked really well. The blog grew really quickly and within six months of launching the blog, we won the award as one of the top 10 social media blogs through Social Media Examiner.

Wow. Yeah.

We were only six months on the go.

How did that happen?

So how that happened was on my very first visit to Blog World in New York, I was in a queue queuing up to get into Blog World and I was queuing for about two hours. And who Did I see walking in the door, it was Mike Stalzner. So I'm near the top of the queue, huge queue behind me, and I was queuing for two hours, then said, well, what do I do? Do I stay here and get my ticket or drop out and say hello to Mike?

Wow.

There to meet people. So I had a good conversation with Mike. We took pictures, and then I went back into the queue again. And then later on during the day, I seen Mike about 12 o', clock hanging around, not doing anything. So I said, right, this is my opportunity. So I went over to Mike and said, are you doing anything for lunch? And he said, no, actually, I'm not. Do you want to go for lunch? And what was funny is he said to me, well, this could be the best lunch you ever had. And we had vouchers, so we didn't have to pay for lunch. When I sat down with Mike, he said to me, listen, he said, oh, I see you're into tools and stuff. He said, we often need articles on tools. Would you be interested in writing for Social Media Examiner?

Lovely.

And at that stage, I didn't have any good blog content. So he said to me, submit three good articles and we'll consider you.

Okay.

What really happened then was I went home, and the next day after coming home from New York, we were flying out to holidays with my family, our family holidays. So the first three days, the holidays, I wrote three really great blog posts right by the pool, and I stayed in and wrote three blog posts. Then I submitted them and they were good. So they got writing. So. So immediately my first blog guest posting was on Social Media Examiner. So immediately I started building influence there. And then through all the relationships I started building, people started sharing my content and they got to know what I was doing. And because I was writing a lot about social media tools, it was different than everybody else. So I had a niche. I had, you know, I was building influence by appearing on these sites. I was building relationships with influencers. And a combination of all that meant that things just moved very quickly.

That was lovely. I love that story. That's amazing. Especially the part that, you know, you took the chance to, you know, jump out of the queue and say, you know, let's see what happens. And that path took you down, being featured on one of the world's most popular social media sites.

I know, I know, and I know yourself. You think the same in terms of seize the opportunity, you know, 100%, you know, as.

Also, as I'm growing older, I'm Getting focused on what I want and cutting out a lot of clutter in my life. And that's made me feel much lighter about things, you know, I know for sure what I want because I know time is limited and I'll go only after what gives me happiness. Yeah. So tell us. Sorry, go ahead.

Well, we spend so much time striving to achieve something. I think at times we need to step back and go, well, we have achieved, you know, we've satisfied with what we've achieved. Yes, there's no harm pushing ourselves, but we need to enjoy what we have at the moment because it's like you could always be looking for something and never actually reach it.

Right, absolutely. So tell us, then that happened and then how did your. You run an agency or how do you help people? How do you add value? I know you have that amazing tool and I'm going to get to that. That you just launched. But before the tool, what happened from the time you started writing articles and started getting on stage to now?

Yeah, to be honest, the first year and a half I focused on the blog and I didn't think about revenue because we still have the Irish business. And then we start transitioning over. So we started running webinars and selling training courses, social media training courses, blogging courses online. And then businesses started approaching us to do consultancy. Some quite big brands came to us and asked us to work with them and we've done consultancy like influencer programs, helping people sell more products online, to building funnels, helping with content marketing consultancy. And that all came through the blog and speaking at events. So from speaking at events, doing consultancy for brands, doing online work where we would sell the likes of training courses online. And also we talked a lot about tools on our site and we have affiliate relationships with some tool providers. So somebody clicks on the link to a tool, goes off and buys the tool, then we get a piece of revenue. So was really where we achieved our revenue.

So again, this was by design or you said, let me try a couple of things and see what works. Online courses, affiliate programs, all of that.

Yeah, we tried everything. I mean, I would love to say we started off with this master plan for revenue as we planned it out, but that's not. It was like, I mean, blogging was new to me. Online marketing, like that was relatively new in terms of building a blog, building an audience, content marketing, email marketing, that was all relatively new to me at the stage. So I didn't know really the best way of making money from that. And that's over time we try different things, see what worked, what didn't work, and then build the business over that. Now if I was starting again now in the morning, it'd be a little bit different.

Sure.

It took us a long while just to figure out what was the best way to make revenue from this.

So now that. Now do you have courses or telling people how you do this?

We have a monthly subscription program called Razor Blazers and we teach people on a. People sign up for a monthly subscription and we on a regular basis we would run like a live training event or share some content that will help them. And we do a monthly podcast where we share the latest tips to existing businesses.

And how do you continue to grow your membership?

Growing the membership is challenging now because. Which you mentioned, I've moved into building a software product. So it's hard to focus on everything. So the membership at the moment, we're not really aggressively growing. So we do have on our site people can go and look at the services we offer and sometimes people will sign up monthly subscription. Not driving that membership at the moment.

Got it. But can we have the name of the site?

Sorry, it's. Well, it's all on razorsocial.com so if you look at the services on razorsocial.com you'll see it.

Excellent, excellent. So now most digital marketers that I have conversations with, they say that because digital market is so service oriented and they want to productize the service A because you can scale faster and B, because there's less variables involved once you've done the product. So is this why you transition from a service based offering to now a product?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean the thing about service business is yes, we did some monthly subscription but that was not enough to pay all the bills and you know, anybody works with us, so we end up still doing consultancy. Right, Consultancy. But you do a consultancy project and everything's going well and then there's no consultancy and then there's a gap of consultancy. So you're always working and looking for work constantly, which is hard.

Understood.

That's recurring income. And I think most agencies get to a point where they go, well, I'd love recurring income.

Right.

I suppose is that I have 15 years working in software companies. So my last role was managing a development team and a support team. And so I have a lot of experience working in software companies. I have more skills in working with software companies than I do have a marketing.

Really? Wow.

What more experience in that area, you know, that's where I spent my time.

That's amazing. Because you've aced what you're doing right now, and you're seeing the industry that I've aced. I'm not even as good as I am in the other industry. So we're looking forward to now getting on to the next chapter, which is how did you get into this tool? And where did you find the need for a tool like this? And then tell us about your new baby.

Sure. Okay. People look at me and say, I'm an inbound market. I create a blog, I attract traffic into it, convert, and get business on the back of that. The reality is that I'm not. I'm an inbound and outbound marketer. When I created the blog, initially, if I just sat here and created great content, the blog wouldn't have got anywhere. So I had to reach out. But I'm reaching out in an authentic way. I'm reaching out trying to add value and trying to build relationships. And when you do that, then that outreach or outbound marketing works really, really well.

Mm.

When we were doing outreach to people, you know, a lot of times we end up using an Excel spreadsheet and tracking everything. And I, you know, I looked at some of the tools. I didn't think the tools were great. So we decided to build a tool that would help people send highly personalized emails to a small, relatively small group of people for doing things like generating leads or involving influencers in your content or building links to your content. So you'd use an email marketing tool. If you're sending emails to your subscribers, they're not personal. They're coming from an email marketing tool, and they're perfect for you. Send it to 500 or 1,000 or 10,000 people. You're not really going to be able to personalize every email you're sending to a smaller group and maybe 50 or 100 people, for example. What we do is we connect your email client so it still goes through your normal email client, but we just help you to personalize that, make it easier to personalize it, to track it, so you can track the people, open and respond and also follow up with emails as well after the initial email. And I just thought there was a real need for a better tool in this area. And also the education point of, like, how do you do that marketing? That's why we're investing a lot in the content side to teach people how to do outbound marketing. Because people say, oh, outbound marketing is old and stated well. I mean, for outreach. Plus, I can't now just sit here and create content and hope visitors will come. I need to reach out. I need to talk to Abby. I need to talk to people. I need to get on podcasts, need to reach out to people. Ten minutes ago, I reached out to somebody trying to get a link back to my content to increase the authority of my site. So it's a constant thing to outreach. And then when your brand is established and growing, your traffic starts growing and everything, it gets a little bit easier. You never give up on that outbound marketing. But it does get a little bit easier.

Right, so you're saying that the difference between what you've built and what you saw was already existing in the market was personalization.

Well, some of them have personalization, but the tools are quite complicated to use. And I didn't like the functionality in terms of being able to track the outreach. I just find we had good process for outreach and we didn't find a company that matched that process.

Okay.

So it's a simpler to use tools, some nicer functionality, and a really good process when you're doing outreach.

And what's the best way to find. Find this tool or get a free trial or.

Yeah, there's a two week free trial. Go to outreach plus.com outreachplus.com and that's where. Yeah, have it all there.

And tell us what kind of people should look at this kind of tool. Is it agencies? Is it? Or anybody who runs a business. Even if I have. I'm starting off, I have only 50 people or I've been doing this for nine years and I have 500,000 people. I can still. Can anybody use this tool?

Anybody can use it. Primarily initially, we're targeting agencies. We use it a lot. And also because it's perfect for agencies helping to promote their client businesses. And we're targeting SaaS, companies like software companies that are growing and know there's a need to increase their user base and they reach out. But the reality is, you know, bigger companies could use it as well, you know.

Right.

Could be used by that. But we're there. The sort of areas we're targeting at.

The moment, I know a couple of very, very serious influencers in the Asian region who would be happy to maybe take a free trial and then promote it on their blogs. And they have a, you know. Yeah. After, after we finish this call, I'll send you a link to their sites. If you think they're the right people, then I'll make an introduction.

That'd be brilliant. Thank you very much. Yeah, of course.

Not at all. So we spoke about health and fitness. We spoke about how you hustled with vision in mind and got onto famous blogs, got onto stages, then how you built your business and then eventually your new baby, which is the new software. Now let's talk about your other three babies. You know, your, your family, how are they? Are they, I'm sure they're inspired by a super fit dad who doesn't look a day over 30 years old and is running their own business. Do your kids get inspired? Are they learning entrepreneurship? Is it rubbing off? Tell us something about that.

Well, my kids definitely, you know, one of my daughters is at gymnastics at the moment, so she's gonna.

There you go.

The, the other son will be at taekwondo tomorrow.

Nice.

My other son, Ryan, eldest son, who was actually over in the office here behind me, the desk behind me because he comes down here to do his homework and stuff.

Hi, Ryan. Hey, Ryan, nice to see you. Outreach plus, I think. But tell us that it's a frustrating process to build an email list. Could you give us some pointers on how to build an email list?

So on outreach I decided that I'm going to do less content, more detailed content. And each article I'm going to focus on building a lot of subscribers. Each article.

Okay.

Go to the website. You'll see there's a blog post and every blog post is about 2,000 words or longer. And on the right hand side you'll see no opt in or anything. But at the start of the post you'll see an option to download a summary of that blog post. Generally a checklist. Now so that's very obvious when people come to it and people don't have time to read everything, bookmark it, they'll come back to it later, they'll link to it, they'll share it on social, don't necessarily read it.

Right.

But checklist, which will be a summary and that's just a one page, they can flick through that and are more likely to get some value out of that. So I just want them to get some value. They don't have to read every word right now. The other thing I do is when they're exiting the blog post, if they haven't opted in using that when they exit the blog post, then I pop up something which is the same offer. Do you want a checklist for this post? So every pop up that comes up, which is only available when people exit, it's different for every single page.

Every single. Right.

My conversion rates, John. Every conversion rates are between 20 and 50%.

Wow. That's my conversion rates, right? It's because you're personalizing every message on every page for every article.

The opt in is because it's within the content. That opt in is there and it's specific to that piece of content. And the pop up as they leave is specific to that piece of content. So the combination of the tooling gives you good rates.

I love that.

If I had an opt in on the right hand side and it wasn't totally related to the content, my conversion is going to be 1%. If I have an opt in down the footer, my conversion would be 0.2%. So what I'm doing is less content. Put a little bit of effort into having that download on the pop up. But when you think about, if I do a list, say of an article, 12 Tools to Do X post, I can provide a summary of just 12 tools. And anybody can put that together because they just got blog posts. And what I use is the exact same template, the exact same opt in look, the exact same pop up look. So all we're doing is changing text so we can take 10 minutes to do all that setup. So what the massive difference in terms of the optics, of course.

It's lovely. Tell us, do you write your own blog posts or do you have somebody write them for you?

I write them, but I have an editor who helps me because, I mean, I'm the one with the ideas all the time. So I'm creating the content. Creating it. My editor will take that content and improve it. You know, make sure the grammar is right, make sure the spelling is right because it wouldn't be great, great at that. It flows correctly. Then I have Colette, my wife, who would take it and now she's starting to add in nice images to it. So for example, instead of a list of six items, I have an image with the six items and she'll put in a few different images and then somebody else will put it up into WordPress and then post it and distribute it across social media channels. So there's a few people involved in us, but I will do most of the initial outline of content.

Do you use Facebook ads to promote the blog as well?

Not at the moment. I don't. For outreach. Plus we're tight on money for outreach because we're trying to grow the revenue. So we're not promoting at the moment, but we will do, as revenues grow, we'll start doing more paid promotion.

Right. So in terms of again, in 2018 and April of 2018, we've come a long way. Last six months. So much has changed at every social media examiner or social media camp that I meet you at. I feel that, you know, we met after a decade in terms of social media life. But so email, do you think that today there's still an opportunity for anybody who's got a message out there or a service or a product to build a small email list of say 5,000 people and be able to monetize that?

Sure, absolutely. I mean, the key thing is just making sure that you're not just building an email list. You're very specific about the content you're writing is related to the product or service. So it's not talking about your product or service, but it's attracting the audience that will potentially want your product and service. So you make sure that your content is aligned to what you're selling and the type of people you want to attract. If you attract that right audience and you build that list, you don't even have to have 5,000 people, you could have 500 people and it could be a very valuable list.

Oh, really? I like that. Right, so you're saying as long as it's targeted and you understand your audience and you understand what exactly they want, and then you write the right blogs or articles for them, you can monetize even 500 people.

Exactly. I mean, the key thing is to talk to your audience. You know, it's like you make assumptions about your audience, but if you actually get on the phone and talk to them or survey them and ask them questions, you know, you'll get to know more about what their needs or talk to your customers and what are the pain points and then answer that in your blog content. So you're just answering all their problems and issues and helping them. So then people with the same issues will come to you looking for the solution and your product will be the solution.

Interesting. So I have 500 people on my list and I follow what you just said. Now, if I were to say, market my product or service in a completely different geography where nobody knew me, then would you recommend I spend a lot of time on the correct headline so that you know the basic principles of marketing? Ida Aida. Attention, interest, desire, and then actually go after, you know, headline.com or whatever to find out what's the right headline, create some sensation around seven tools that nobody ever told you about. Something like that. Does that help?

Yeah, I mean, I suppose the key thing is if you're going after a new market and say, for example, they've never heard of you, don't know anything about you. Well, then you have to sort of lead with value. What value can you bring, provide that they really want. And if you are talking to your existing customers and you know the pain points, you know, well, then you go after what is that, the pain points. And they're attracted to a solution to their problem. So even if it isn't somebody that they know or anything, if they've got a good solution to the problem. So we'd offer things like a webinar. If somebody would actually spend 45 minutes on a call with you, well then there's obviously an interest in what, what you're talking about.

Right.

So there's good potential. You've sort of, you've speeded up the relationship building by having people on a webinar.

Got it.

Come to your blog post, read your blog. There's no relationship with you. It's just one piece of content. As you send emails over time, the relationship develops as you have more content. But if you can get people onto a webinar or like a, you know, Facebook Live, the relationship grows quite quickly so that you can shorten that time period where people are now prepared to buy from you. Like a webinar is, you don't know the person and 45 minutes later you could be buying from the person a bit more. You got a feel for the person, they've shared some great content, provided value and then just made an offer at the end.

Lovely. Have you heard of Mark Mahoney from Canada? A very good friend of mine. I'd love to introduce him to you. So he does. He sends an email a day and he's like, you shouldn't do any less than at least once a day. You're getting fantastic results. What is your take on how many emails do you have a subscriber base?

Yeah, I mean, I send them once a week. My audience used once a week. I provide, you know, good content on a regular basis. I send short text only emails, quite casual, you know, and that seems to work for me. But to me it's about consistency. If your audience signs up to a daily email, then be consistent and deliver daily.

Right.

Then deliver weekly. And then it's down to do you have good content to keep them engaged. I've nothing against daily and nothing against twice daily, if that's what your audience.

Sure.

Once a need and that. And if he sees that he's getting huge value from that, well, then keep going.

Yeah, right, got it. Okay, so I'm. We're coming to the end. We have another five minutes. We are for 45 minutes. So we have another seven minutes. Are you okay to go?

Oh, yeah, sure, no problem.

Okay. Okay. Excellent. So what do you see as the next frontier in say, social media marketing? We've seen it all from speaking to, you know, I spoke to Lisa Sassevich the other day. If you know the lady, she's doing a brilliant job. She sometimes has a million dollars worth of sales selling from stage or just one day, you know, and then she got her courses done and all of that. So that's one model. And there are models of people who are saying I'm never going to leave my house and I'm just going to sell podcasts or interview people and all of that. Then there are, I think I've unknowingly chosen the most difficult one, which is running an agency which is like so many, just juggling so many variables. It's the people on one side and it's your in house people on the other side. And then there are people who are saying that I'm just monetizing my list. But there are so many things that Internet marketing has to offer. What do you think could be the next frontier?

I don't know.

But do you look into the future and think sometimes that.

I mean, it's very hard to predict, I think in terms of what's going to happen. I mean, you see there's a negative backlash against Facebook and Twitter and I just seen some big company just announced their. Oh, Witherspoons, they run hundreds of bars across.

They're closing that down.

Yeah, closing it all down, you know, because a lot of people are not getting the value from it, you know, not using it the right way. So I would imagine, I mean, where do they go from here? It's hard to know because I mean there is a lot of private communities being set up in groups, like Slack groups. So I think still a huge need for community and I think it's like you building your own community and attracting that audience into it. But like the way you own your website, you own your email list, I think there needs to be ownership of that community.

Got it.

Facebook groups, I mean it's so obvious what they were doing recently is that on Facebook groups, everybody move into groups because you know, everybody, most people seen your content, then they changed notifications on groups so it was only highlights only. So by default you only seen highlights of the group. And the reason they're doing that is because they're going to bring in ads onto groups for people to see your comments. So that thing about groups getting all the reach, that's all going. So you really need to own your community. So I think people will take communities away from LinkedIn, Facebook and other channels and move the platforms where they may have to pay, but they're paying a monthly subscription based on the number of members and there's no advertising beyond that, and then they control and own that group. So we need to own our communities to safeguard them in the long term.

But I don't see, you know what, sometimes I. And this again, a personal, you know, sort of. Well, I feel there's nothing wrong in paying for value. I just feel that we had it free for the longest time and that's why there's, you know, certain back. Some segments are back backlashing against Facebook just because it's expensive now and. Expensive compared to what? There's no other alternative. Plus it gives you an awesome reach and you can do so much. So I think they should be paid for what they're giving.

Yeah, I mean. I mean, we pay for it anyway, some way, you know, or something. So, yeah, I mean, I think they may have to start charging for their services because advertising revenue will probably go down because they won't be allowed to share as much personal data, so the targeting won't be as good. So they'll lose a lot of advertising. They will have to start charging more for services like groups and pages and things.

Interesting to know what happens next, which, you know, what's going to be the next. Yeah, yeah. Excellent. So, Ian, this brings us to the last question. When. When is. When are. When are the Internet mobile? When are our audience going to see you in India?

Oh, well, I. Like I said before I get on, I got an invite actually on the 27th of June to go to Mumbai for what said it's the biggest digital marketing conference in India, so that might work out. So I'd love to.

That would be lovely. So, Ian, on that note, I wish you all the best for outreach. I'd love to get some, you know, some logos and maybe screenshots or whatever you can send so that we can build it into this nice episode and put it out there and with a link or whatever you can send. I wish you all the best for this new venture. You know, going with your track record, whatever you've hit, whatever you've touched has turned to gold. So I'm sure this will turn to gold as well. And I love your story about you leaving the queue to meet Michael Stelzner and that's good, that's the key. That's the highlight for me of this interview besides meeting Ryan, of course. And so please give my regards to your family and thank you very much for spending 45 minutes with us.

Well, thank you very much. It's an honor to spend the time with Javi and it was great to meet you in person recently and hopefully.

We meet again 100%. And if you're coming down to either Vancouver or any, any part of India, let us know. We'd be happy to, you know, happy to host you, happy to take care of whatever you need.

Thank you very much. Thank you.

Perfect. Take care, Ian. And maybe just right now on latest by tomorrow I'll send you the links of the two people who I feel would be could be very helpful in promoting the promoting outreach plus thank you very much. Perfect. Take care. Thanks very much. I will, I will. I will do that. Take care. Good night.

Sa.