235. Home Details That Matter With Tony Marnella

Welcome to another episode of Professional Builders Secrets. In this episode, I interview Tony Manella from Manella Homes. Tony builds high-performance custom homes with a strong focus on health and wellness. After facing his own health challenges, he began questioning what really makes a home safe and healthy to live in. That shift changed the way he builds and the type of clients that he attracts. Keep listening to discover how getting clear on your purpose and your niche can transform your building company. This episode of Professional Builders Secrets is brought to you by Apparatus Contractor Services. Apparatus provides full-scope, end-to-end QuickBooks Precision construction accounting and CFO services for residential builders. If you feel like you can't completely trust your weekly and monthly financial reports, or you feel like you're flying blind, Apparatus will rebuild and operate your QuickBooks accounting system and and give you precision construction accounting capability you can trust. Learn more at ApparatusTeam.com or on the APB Rewards Partner Directory.

I feel like we're more than just a home builder. You know, we construct environments for how people actually will be living in them through clean air, clean water, comfortable environments, natural light. A lot of builders, you know, focus on what you can see, what photographs well, but we're heavily focused on what you can't see. We call 'em the invisible details. They affect how the health and wellness of the occupants of that home. Health and wellness should not be a luxury. It should be the standard in how we build homes. The improved energy codes do not address health and wellness. The home is actually a system that all must work together. The clients that we're working with already are focused on health and wellness. They're ultimately purchasing lifestyle. They're not just purchasing a home with nice finishes. So our term is return on wellness.

Welcome to Professional Builders Secrets, the podcast for building company owners wanting to grow safely and securely. I'm your host, Will Blunt, and today I'm joined by Tony Manella from Manella Homes. Tony, welcome to the show.

Yes, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Very excited to have you on. To give the viewers a bit of a background on who you are, can you just tell us a bit more about your background in building, your building company, what you do?

Sure. So I'm Tony Marnella. I'm the founder of Marnella Homes. We build health-focused luxury homes here in the Pacific Northwest, primarily Southwest Washington, Northwest Oregon. And, you know, we— I feel like we're more than just a home builder. I feel like, you know, we construct environments for, you know, how people actually will be living in them through clean air, clean water, you know, comfortable environments, natural light. And that's really the focus of, of how we build our homes. A lot of builders, you know, focus on what you can see, what photographs well, the, the countertops and the appliances and finishes. And all of our homes include that as well. But we're heavily focused on what you can't see. We call them the invisible details, you know, the, the air sealing measures, the intelligent air management, the moisture management. And they're definitely not sexy and they don't photograph very well, but independently they affect how, you know, the health and wellness of the occupants of that home.

And get some nice photos as well at times.

And you're really, at the end of the day, I just believe that, you know, health and wellness should not be a luxury. It should be the standard in how we build homes.

Have you always been in this industry?

No, I actually started out very young in real estate. I started when I was 21 and really just after a few years of being in the business, I just gravitated towards working with builders and developers. I was very intrigued by the industry and the whole aspect of, you know, creating something out of nothing and just really started, you know, following along. And in school, I thought I was going to be an architect, so working with builders was fun because I was able to tweak their plans and, you know, feed that creative side of my brain. And, and it's a very fun process.

Cool. Well, what actually led you to start thinking about homes in this health-focused and health-first perspective?

Yeah, it was really a bit of a journey. So As I mentioned, you know, I was in real estate, I was working with mainly builders. And because I was getting interested in doing that on my own, I designed a plan, bought a couple lots, and hired one of the builders that I was working with to build those homes for me. Really, as much of not only building homes and starting that process, but shadowing this builder that I knew to learn about how to build homes. And I don't come from a family of builders. I don't have any preconceived ideas of how things must be done from a grandfather, dad, uncle, whomever. And so I really came into the business as a very curious and, you know, almost like that annoying kid that's like, well, why? And why do you do this? And, and so After building for a few years, doing what I was kind of shadowed and mentored to do, which is build nice homes and you meet code and you sell them and you make a profit. Partway through this journey, I meet this gentleman and I always give him credit, Dwayne Woike. He worked for one of the local utilities in one of their programs that was designed around encouraging builders to build above code, more energy efficient, and ultimately get to certification level. And he wasn't just an ideologue that had this utopian idea of how to build better homes. He actually understood construction. And so me being so inquisitive, he would always show up on a job site, super nice guy. And he'd go, you know, if you did this, he already knew the cost of it. He already knew how it would benefit the home. And this went on for a series of, you know, months into years. And Ultimately, we ended up certifying homes. Keep in mind, this is still focused on an energy-saving focus. And, you know, then we started realizing, okay, our customer complaints are dropping, our warranty costs are dropping, because to certify a home, you're going through third-party oversight, you've got checklists, you're required to do certain things in best practices. So I was seeing the benefit of the trajectory of just building better homes, but health and wellness was just not resonating at that point. Well, then come about 10 years ago, I got extremely sick and potentially had a terminal illness. My wife and I really got very granular. I've always been an extremely healthy person. So, for me to get this sick, we had to figure out why, what's causing this. And so through that journey of, I call it discovery, you know, I learned that EPA recognizes indoor air quality as the top, one of the top 5 health concerns for Americans. I stumbled onto EWG, I believe EWG is Environmental Working Group, and they've got a database of every public water system in the country, and you plug in a zip code, and if anyone's like me, you're alarmed at what's allowed in our water systems, and just how much our environment, our immediate environment affects our health. There's certain things we can control. We can work out, we can eat the grass-fed beef over the industrial beef that's injected with all sorts of garbage and vegetables and other things that are not organic. You can control that aspect. But through that process, I really learned that our interior environment, where we spend the majority of our time, is— it could either be quietly helping us in, you know, helping our health, or it can be hurting us. And the reality is most of our interior environments are not helping us. And so learning about intelligent air management and how we can actually create healthier indoor air and the toxicity that's in our water that the Brita and the refrigerator air filter don't cut it anymore. They're not filtering out pharmaceuticals and microplastics and forever chemicals. And so it took me down a path of how can we build better? Because the, the improved energy codes do not address health and wellness. They address energy efficiency. Which admittedly is where I got started too, but they're not addressing anything to do with the health and comfort of the indoor environment. And so it really changed how I perceived, you know, building homes.

What are some of the key differences when you're looking to build a healthier home compared to just an energy efficient home or, or just a, a regular structure as it is? Are you looking to, at air quality to reduce I think you mentioned moisture as well, because that's obviously related to mold. And then you spoke about water quality as well. So that's probably more towards the end of the finishes and stuff, right?

Yeah. So it's what we refer to as the invisible details. So the invisible details, one of them, probably the most paramount one, is air sealing. And air sealing that envelope has got to be so tight because if it's not tight, you know, there's mixed opinions, especially for, you know, a lot of builders really just don't understand building science. So I don't believe that a lot of them don't address these issues out of trying to cut corners, anything that's mischievous, lack of a better term. It's just they truly don't understand how the home is actually a system that with multiple integrations that all must work together. And the envelope is the, first place to start. And there's people that will say that, well, our homes are too tight. Well, you can have the most high-efficient HVAC equipment, but if the ducts are leaking and the envelope is leaking, it's fighting against itself every minute that's in operation. And every time that indoor environment pressurizes or depressurizes based on what appliance is operating at the time, it's sucking in contaminants and things from the outside that you do not want in the interior home, or it's pushing out energy, air that you've paid to cool. And so the envelope is the first place to start. And we have an extremely extensive air sealing measure that we do before insulation ever goes in. The other thing is intelligent air management. And the new energy codes require fresh air exchange, but it's mechanical. And so I refer to it as a dumb system, and not dumb as it's dumb to use, it just has no intelligence to monitor air. So we've chosen the Broan system, and it has a sensor that's mounted in the main living areas, and it's constantly 24/7 monitoring air quality. Throughout the home. Homeowner doesn't have to do any adjustments or monitoring. Its sole focus is monitoring the air quality. And so it's modulating up the ERV or down based on whether it's— you've got a cocktail party and CO2 and humidity levels are rising, well then it starts to modulate up to even that out. And it literally goes one step further. We get into our smoke season, Outdoor air quality gets very poor. If once it senses that the incoming air is bad, it shuts the system off and moves into recirc. And so those are two very important elements that go into a home. And then obviously with the, the water quality issue, we prep every one of our homes for reverse osmosis at the kitchen sink, which is the ultimate way to truly strip out impurities. And then we do a whole house loop where someone can put in a whole house water softener or filtrator. And we started learning that our homeowners were already putting these systems in after they had moved in and wish that we had done that prep for them. Well, the cost to make those preparations is negligible in the overall cost of the home. So if our homeowners are already aware of that, then we should start, you know, making that preparation as well.

I suspect that there's a certain, certain type of client that you'd be working with who is a little bit more progressively thinking about this kind of stuff. Would that be fair to say?

Absolutely, yeah. So, you know, the, the clients that we're working with already are focused on health and wellness. They read labels, you know, they're the ones buying grass-fed beef, they're buying pasture-raised organic eggs and organic vegetables. And so You know, they're into exercise. So health and wellness is already baked into their lifestyle. So they're expecting that their home is going to fit those values and they're already seeking that out and they understand why those elements are important. We may have to explain to them how these invisible details are creating the outcome that they want, but They're ultimately, you know, purchasing lifestyle. They're not just purchasing a home with nice finishes.

Has it changed the way they think about value? Because I'm, I'm guessing it's more expensive to build, right? Because you've got more, more things related to the health of the home, which means you need to create a different conversation about where the value lies.

Yes. However, when we get into you know, the details with people, we're walking through those elements. They're not as costly as most people assume that they're going to be. You know, the air sealing is typically a little over a dollar a foot for the third party that we bring in to do that. You know, the, the air management system is more than the mechanical system, but it's not much more than maybe the next tier upgrade on a countertop. And, you know, the water prep that we do, it doesn't really add any cost to the home. If they put in the reverse osmosis or the water filtration, you know, that is probably the cost of a very nice upgrade on the countertops. The irony is that the countertop upgrade isn't changing the value of the home, but the health and wellness features are improving the wellness of the occupants in that home. So we've kind of— our term is return on wellness. So if one's not going to move the needle on, on the home as far as value, but this one is actually improving the needle on how you— the health and wellness of your occupants, which is more important to you? Yeah, you've already appreciated the fact that grass-fed beef is more than the industrial farm beef. And your pasture-raised organic eggs are more than the industrial eggs. So you understand the value that for health and wellness, you are going to pay a little bit more. But how do you really put a dollar figure on that? And this client, you know, already truly understands that.

Yeah, I mean, we had this conversation, I think, in the pre-interview when we caught up. You mentioned it's like, what is more valuable to you? Your health and your family's health or, yeah, a nice countertop. It makes a lot of sense. But I guess you need to get into those conversations with the right people to start with.

You do, because if they just see you as a custom home builder, they're showing up and they immediately want to know your price per foot.

Yeah.

And if you're a builder in a sea of builders and your unique proposition or the ethos and philosophy of your company is not resonating with them, they're not your people. You know, they're probably buying the industrial eggs and they're buying the crappy beef. They just don't appreciate that extra value. And so, you know, like I'd mentioned earlier, the client that we're communicating with is buying a home that matches their lifestyle philosophy. And so, yes, we are spending time to explain how those invisible details that we're doing do affect and improve that lifestyle, but they already get it. They already, they're already aligned with who we are and our philosophy of building.

One thing you've done really well is producing a lot of content online. So you've got a YouTube channel where you, you're producing a lot of educational videos around this kind of information. You've got articles on your website and other things on social media. What got you into start doing all of that and how how has it benefited your business?

I really will take it back to my health journey because I learned so much through that. It's so easy for us to just take the status quo. And my wife and I learned enough about alternatives to, you know, healing that we questioned everything. The old statement, question and verify. And nothing rang more true to me during that process. As you ask better questions, you get better results. And we pushed back on everything that was being told to us was how I needed to address my health. And I think kind of taking some of that mentality forward to housing really is to counter the belief system that the consumer has that if I pay, If I buy a new home, therefore it must be healthy. It's got new equipment, new piping, new ducting, better insulation. It is a little bit tighter because the codes are forcing homes to be tighter, but nothing resonates more to why we're trying to create this awareness than, for instance, we had somebody post a comment on our YouTube channel. His business partner had built an over $4 million home, and within 6 months he was hospitalized because of mold. And then 2 weeks ago, I had a doctor out of Florida call me, very similar story. She and her family moved into a brand new home and couldn't understand why her husband was starting to have these respiratory issues. And, you know, initially they thought, well, it must be mold. Well, they kept having people come out 3 people, nope, it's, you know, they're below acceptable levels. And she told me, she goes, we literally started to think we were going crazy because we couldn't identify why my husband was getting so sick, but everyone's telling us the home is just fine. And finally they got a doctor that said, don't go home, go have your home inspected. And she goes, we've already had it done 3 times. She goes, call this guy. And this guy came out, he goes, yeah, he goes, it's below federal guidelines, but it's not acceptable. Completely sterilized the home. By the next morning, her husband's symptoms were gone. So as I state in a lot of the things that I produce, it's like whether you work with Marnella Homes or not, ask better questions. Because if, if health and wellness is part of your lifestyle, it's part of how you live your life, If your builder doesn't understand this, you're going to go down a path and move into a brand new home at whatever price range, the $4 million home or a $400,000 home. These are very simple steps to follow, but if the builder doesn't understand it, you're going to end up in an environment that you may not want to be in.

Yeah, it's kind of scary for those people that don't own their own homes or don't have the Yeah, the ability to go and build their own homes and look through all this process, right? Because you can't control those factors.

No. And that's why I mentioned earlier, I, I think that the code updates are misguided. You know, not only are they prescriptive, they're not performance-based. We've always followed performance because it's a much more intelligent way to reach the targets that you need to go. But the health and wellness of the interior environment should really be the focus. Not just energy performance. And so I think there's really some misguidance within the code system, and that's why we simply don't pay attention to code. A friend of mine who's a builder here in the area refers to code as barely legal. You miss one check item, it's not safe to occupy. And it's, you know, safe in the building world is it might fall down. Or it's not built to minimum standards. And so code, other than in those very early years, has never been our guidance.

Do you see a future where that changes?

I would like to think that there would be a future where that changes. I think it's each of us individually finding our own ethos. I hope that— I mean, one thing that COVID did for us in a positive is it brought health to the forefront. And I think that's really why the surge of why we're connecting with more and more people. But in the building world, we're all building our own widgets. And until the consumer starts coming to the model houses and starts asking for those things, I don't think builders are going to be quick to make that pivot. But it's a niche that is very live and very active. For those builders choosing to address it.

Yeah, let's talk about the niche, because from a marketing and business perspective, everything you've done is like textbook how to actually set up a building company from the perspective of finding a niche, understanding your customers, and really honing in on developing content and educating them about the benefits of utilizing your services over a normal custom home builder. Yours has come organically from your lived experiences, which is very authentic, which adds to the story and all of that kind of stuff. But have you found by having a niche that it's allowed you to work with better customers, increase your ability to earn what you're worth and all that kind of stuff as well?

You know, when you're clear about who you are, you're communicating very differently because if you're fragmented, you're trying to appease all these different people, your marketing messages are inconsistent, you're throwing out all this different information. And you're, I think one of the things that I learned in trying to really get granular on this is if you're trying to build for everybody, you're really resonating with no one. And so, by finding clarity, you know, the field narrows at first. And as a builder, you never want to turn away business. But if you're changing who you are for very different clients, that's actually more work than just staying in your lane and dealing with the people that truly understand you and appreciate you. And, you know, our scopes are written to build homes the way we build homes. If I've got to rewrite scopes for somebody that just wants a basic built home, they don't care about any of the things we do, that's actually a lot more work. The trades who work with us know our expectations. They know that we certify every home, so they know there's a third-party verifier that's going to be milling about and checking on this or that. They know there's best practices that are insisted on to meet those expectations for certification. If we had a different expectation because of the client we were working on, I can only imagine how confusing that would be. Because they're already working with other builders. They've all got their own philosophies, and then they step across our curb, and then they've gotta adopt a different philosophy. So if crossing our curb, you never knew what to expect, I would think that would be super confusing. So everyone's aligned from our team, our trades, our vendors, and the clients that we work with. And so I think it's simplified things.

Yeah.

You know, it's— we've really decided to go narrow and go deep on everything about health and wellness within the home.

Was there a transition period where, to your point, the pool got smaller and you felt the pressure of not having enough work coming in? And how did you handle that?

Yeah, it is scary at first when you've got somebody that, you know, wants you to build them a home and like, yeah, we don't care about all that stuff. Just build us a house. And it's really kind of an internal moment that you have at the time. It's like, okay, what, what do I want my brand to stand for? And we put a plaque, you know, Marnella Homes brand in every— a plaque in every driveway. And it's to symbolize not only the pride we have in the work that we do, but to mark that property as you know, something that fits our ethos, right? And so if I'm building a home that doesn't fit our ethos, do I put a plaque in that driveway? There was a timeframe where it was a little scary turning away work, but, you know, we ramped up our marketing, we fine-tuned our message, and really started to connect with the people that understand our message. And you're not explaining as much as you would with somebody that just doesn't care at all about, you know, these things that you do. There was a journey there, but we're in a good place right now.

Oh, worthwhile.

Yeah. Yeah.

Has anything else been harder about setting your business up in that way?

I don't know if it's harder. Even when we meet with people that are already our people, they already get it, health and wellness is their lifestyle, you still go through the process with them to explain how these invisible details are affecting the livability of their home and why we are doing it. Like I said, I don't— I wouldn't consider it hard. It's more involving, but I'll tell you what, I would rather spend time with that client who wants to learn, who sees the value but doesn't really understand how it affects their home, than trying to explain to somebody who doesn't get it, because ultimately they're probably really not, you know, a client that we're going to be working with anyway. But the benefit in going through that explanation process is the conversation's changing from, you know, cost to performance or from upgrade to outcome. So, it's, you really, the dynamic of the conversation changes because they just want to learn more. They want to understand because they, again, they're coming from the mentality, well, it's a brand new house. So, all this is already going to be there, right? And you have to sit down and say, no, it's not. But here's what we do to make sure that you are moving into a very healthy home.

So you're saying there's a little bit more handholding and potentially a longer sales process because of the educational part?

There is. You know, they're already eager to learn more about it because they're, they're already aligned with what we're doing. They just want to learn more about it, and we're happy to take that time to explain as long as someone, you know, is interested in and wants to learn more about it.

That's a very different conversation though. I mean, I'm just connecting the dots here, but they perceive you as the expert in this space. So they're asking you questions to learn more about how they can build a healthy home compared to speaking to 5 different builders and getting, you know, just quotes based on specs kind of thing. It's totally different conversation because you're probably not having that conversation with multiple builders, right? Like you're the one that's guiding them through that process.

And that's very true because in the sea of builders, there's very few of us that actually have this focus.

Yeah.

And so on the very rare occasion where somebody is talking to other builders, you know, I'll be asking them very pointed questions about this or that, and I'll ultimately get the question back, well, why are you asking me that question? Nobody else has asked me that. I'm like, well, these are, these are pretty important questions to ask. And so that draws out more inquisitiveness from them as, you know, as I start to explain, well, this is very important. You know, what are, what are the building specs that your other builder's doing? What air sealing measures are they, they involving? What kind of, you know, air management equipment do they have? Do they have sensors? You know, and you start talking through that and they're realizing, gosh, these, these could be complete apples to oranges to avocados quotes that we get.

Yeah, that's a great point as well. Even if they are getting other quotes, you've got to help them understand that it's not oranges to oranges, like you said.

Yeah.

Is that the phrase? I'm not sure. But also as well, like what's really interesting is from a sales psychology perspective, by you asking those questions, every time you ask one of those questions, you're establishing more trust and credibility with the client.

Yeah, because they, I, I feel that they, they're seeing that You know, I want to truly, you know, learn more about how they live in their home, how their family, you know, what is their lifestyle. And I'm not just talking about finishes, fixtures, and appliances, which I know they're getting from the other builders they're talking to. You know, our building specs highlight, you know, what's you know, healthy indoor air, and each one of the categories in our specs that relates to that health and wellness aspect is highlighted. And so they get that, and then that further engages because if the other builders are giving them specs, I know that they're not.

Yeah.

And so by me being kind of engaging with those questions, I do think that it builds that trust because they see that I'm trying to build a relationship with them, and I'm not just trying to rush them to a contract and move them into the building process. That we want to build that relationship because at the end of the day, I still look at the building process when I hand off that keys to that client. There's just a, a sense of pride, I guess, that I have that in our little way we're affecting the life of that occupant and then the next occupant and the next occupant. And I take great pride in that. So does our team. And I really want that to be conveyed of that heartfelt interest to every one of our homeowners.

Yeah, that's something we haven't touched on actually, which I'm just thinking about as you're saying that. You mentioned that you're very aligned across all your trades, all your team from top to bottom, your whole processes, and it's simplified your business to a certain extent. But I also imagine, to your point, it feels good to deliver a home which is healthy, and your team probably feels that. So having the purpose across the entire team would get them on the same journey as you.

Absolutely. It's really that alignment, because what's the saying? It's hard to be convincing if you're not convinced.

Yeah.

And so everybody's really got to truly embrace and appreciate that philosophy. Because then everything else just flows. Everything else makes sense. Because if they looked at, you know, if somebody was just a bean cruncher back in the purchasing office, they're going, why are you spending a dollar a foot for air sealing when our insulator can go foam holes in the siding? If they don't understand the why, then it's just an extra cost that literally makes no sense to them. You know, the ERV with the, The wall sensor, yeah, it costs us more than the mechanical, but again, if you understand the why, the cost is totally justified. Yeah, so it's those little things like that that everybody's got to understand the why.

Tony, you've been working with APB for a little while now, and you're in our coaching program. What is it that you get out of that, and what got you into doing business coaching in the first place?

Kind of what I had alluded to earlier is I've always been inquisitive. When I was in sales, I took lots of sales training. I felt like I was a student of real estate and I got into building. I was a student of the industry and I just sponged up as much information as I possibly could. So, you know, whether it was coaching for sales, coaching for learning how to build different, you know, assemble different systems, Coaching for a business was really no different to me, you know, and being a small company, it's very easy to get in your silo and see things just through a certain way. And I've had other construction, you know, business coaches. I learned something from everybody. I won't disregard any of those experiences, but working with APB, especially my great coach, Rick Moore, I really have grown to appreciate the involvement. Not only is the APB program extremely more granular than the prior programs, you get into a lot of programs, you feel like you're just getting kind of moved through the program. You paid your fee, we're going to check this box and we'll get you through to the back end and so forth. But I feel like APB really wants to see us succeed. And I know Rick goes above and beyond when I've got a question or review, you know, the ebook that we just finished or a lead magnet or whatever it is that we're working on. Rick is right there to respond to it and get back with me, working with our marketing team. And I know he doesn't have to. But he truly, in my heart, I believe he wants to see our company succeed and he's willing to put in that effort to help me. And we're in fact up for renewal and I'll be renewing again because I, I believe in all the content and the training that APB puts out. It's very relatable. It's very educational. And I think I appreciate too is they're constantly refining updating, and they're not just letting, you know, we publish this program and it just sits there. They're updating it, and I would recommend APB for anybody. And as far as their content, the fact that they're constantly updating it, I find it extremely helpful, and I would recommend APB for any builder that wants to improve their business. Cool.

Well, thanks for sharing that, Tony. It was very nice. What is it about— just to wrap that part of the conversation up, like working with an external party, like you mentioned Rick, your coach, does that give you a perspective that you find you wouldn't necessarily get when you're the owner of a business, kind of quite isolated within that business itself?

As I had mentioned, you know, the silo, I feel like as a business owner, you've got so many, so many distractions that are going on, all the plates that you're juggling. And having somebody from the outside looking in is going to have a lot of times have a very different perspective. I've learned a lot from Rick about the business that frankly, I just didn't see or I didn't appreciate its importance. And so, his outside perspective on the business is invaluable.

All right, Tony, what would you recommend for other builders that are listening today? And they're— maybe they're not as far along the journey as you, but they're interested to learn more about healthier homes and understanding building science and all those kind of things. Where would they go to get started?

Gosh, there's so many platforms available. I mean, one of the holy grail of healthy building is, uh, I believe it's NEBA. Couldn't tell you what the acronym stands for, but they put on an annual conference every year, and it's an extreme deep dive into building science. And I've gone before, I've missed the last couple years, but it's a great program. They wanna just find out just the basics of some of the things that I mentioned. I mean, they can go onto EPA's website and learn about the, you know, what— how EPA recognizes indoor air quality, EWG's website on water quality. But there's a lot of research to just, I mean, grab your supercomputer in your hand and, you know, Google a lot of the studies that are out there from health officials talking about these very things. And if that's the path that you wish to go. As in this business, there's 100 ways to do the same thing. So definitely don't be discouraged if the first way you go to look at addressing one of those issues, it seems costly or cumbersome. Keep searching because it's one of the things that we've learned through the journey we've had through the code updates and the energy code updates and our influencing some of these features in our homes. It's trial and error. Some things we've tried that just didn't make sense or they were too costly to achieve the same goal. And every time there's an energy code update, it's something that's been in our wake for 5 to 6 years because we've been working on it all that time and we found an efficient way to do it. So just don't be discouraged because you're gonna be, you're gonna have an HVAC contractor that's gonna tell you, that's dumb, I wouldn't do that, it's a waste of money, or a plumber, they're entrenched in their habits of how they've been doing things for years, and they're not going to be a good resource for you to start implementing these things. You're going to have to control that narrative because they're not going to be the ones willing to do that. Our framing techniques, our HVAC techniques, our air sealing techniques, how we're doing plumbing, our rain screen, how we do our siding, were all driven by us, all driven after I did the research. I tried to come up with various ways and we tested each one to find out. And then also finding the trade that was going, "Okay, I'll try that. Yeah, that makes sense. Let's do this," or then they're buying into the process and they're helping you as well. But we had a handful of trades that just pushed back, no buy-in, and, you know, ultimately we quit working with them because they didn't want to buy into our why.

Yeah, it's a great point. It's like you said earlier, it's, you've got to ask better questions if you want to get the answers that are true and not just persuaded by someone else's experience.

100%.

I think I tracked down this organization, the EEBA, the Energy and Environmental Building Alliance. Does that sound right?

Yeah.

That's the one? Yeah. Cool. I've got the website. We'll share that in the show notes for anyone that wants to check that out as well. And also, I mean, you could go and check out marnehlahomes.com as well. Check out Tony's YouTube channel. There's lots of great content on there to get you a bit more educated about the way that Marnehla Homes build as well.

Thank you. Yeah.

Well, Tony, thanks so much for coming on the show today. I've enjoyed the chat and love the direction you've taken with the business. I think Realistically, this should be the future of building and hopefully more builders out there start to think in this way as well.

I hope so. For the sake of our, you know, our housing stock and the homeowners that live in. I mean, at the end of the day, yes, our housing market needs more houses, but what it desperately needs is more healthy homes.

Great. Well, that's a nice way to wrap it up. Yeah. Thanks, Tony. And also thank you to our listeners wherever you are in the world. If you like the show today, please subscribe to Professional Builders Secrets. On your platform of choice. And if you're feeling generous, leave us a review. But until next time, have a great day.