240. Beyond The Bare Minimum With Jessica Kismet

Welcome to another episode of Professional Builders Secrets. In this episode, I interview Jess Kismet from a company called Climashore here in Australia. Climashore is a building science consultant and they help builders build healthier homes for their clients. Jess is also the host of the Building Theology poddy, which is an absolute cracking listen, and she's super knowledgeable about building energy-efficient, healthy homes. It's well worth a listen. This episode of Professional Builders Secrets is brought to you by Apparatus Contractor Services. Apparatus provides full-scope, end-to-end QuickBooks Precision construction accounting and CFO services for residential builders. If you feel like you can't completely trust your weekly and monthly financial reports, or you feel like you're flying blind, Apparatus will rebuild and operate your QuickBooks accounting system and give you precision construction accounting capability you can trust. Learn more at apparatusteam.com or on the APB Rewards Partner Directory. Welcome to Professional Builders Secrets, the podcast for building company owners wanting to grow safely and securely. I'm your host, Will Blunt, as usual, and today I've got Jess Kismet from Climashore. Jess, welcome to the show.

Thanks, Will. It's great to come and have a chat with you.

I usually forget the guest name, but I think I forgot my own name today. I was something over that bit. Great to have you on. Climashore is— you're based in South Australia and you do some really interesting work in building science. So could you give a bit of a background about how it all began and what you do as well?

Yeah, yeah, sure. So the company started— the business started maybe, I wouldn't say about 6 years ago. Um, it was started by one of your members, Jackson Digney, from Enduro Builders. Um, so he has run his building company for 10 years now. Um, this year was the 10th anniversary, and as he was sort of refining what his, um, clientele was going to be, he decided he wanted to build, you know, energy-efficient homes. And once you start to go down the path of energy-efficient homes, you start to learn about all the different things that you need to do to achieve that. And one of those things is airtightness. So through that requirement, he came across the Proclima membrane system, uh, and that then led to— so he's like using Proclima on all of his projects, um, and from there he decided he was going to help other builders do the same thing. So he became a South Australian distributor for the Proclima products, and that's basically how Climashore started. I've known Jackson for just about as long as his building company has been around. It's been about 10 years I've known him, and he was my client in my previous role for airtightness testing. Um, I was doing— in my previous job, I was doing building code compliance assessments, so like NatHERS star ratings, um, deemed to satisfy compliance, like energy modeling basically for the building code. And he was a— he was an airtightness testing client. Um, fast forward a few years, I moved away from the building code space because, um, I started to understand that there were some discrepancies between what was being designed and what was being assessed by us and what was being built. They were often three different things. Um, that's what's called the performance gap in our part of the industry. And so I I sort of— I wanted to go and work in the better building space. I wanted to work in a space where there was a little bit more accountability and a bit of, um, builders going over and above the bare minimum to create better outcomes for their clients. So because of my airtightness testing experience, I had got into the Passive House space, um, and the hygrothermal simulation space, which is mold risk assessments on a computer. And all of this experience combined led me to then come and work with Jack Jackson. Um, so that business was still quite young when I came on board. I've been there 5 years in October this year. So the business was still quite young when I came on board, and I've just basically taken the shell of what he created as a Proclima distributor and turned it into a consultancy in everything building science, from Passive House to the airtightness to membrane installation and detailing and the, the hygrothermal stuff, the mold stuff. And yeah, I basically train and assist other builders and architects to build the sorts of houses that Enduro Builders build.

Cool. Yeah, but I'm not allowed to have favorites, but I do love having a chat with Jackson. He's a fascinating human being and has done a lot of really cool stuff.

So yeah, he certainly has. He certainly has. And he's a bit different in the building company space because he didn't start out as a trade— as a tradie. He started out as a businessman, so he's got a different approach. And, um, He's, yeah, he's building a, he's building a very solid, very good quality product and a good quality business.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So when you work with a builder, talk to me a little bit more, more about how that would potentially work. And we, we don't want to go too much into, you know, Climber Shore pitch, all that kind of stuff, but I just want to understand from a builder's perspective, what are they looking for when you come across paths?

Different things. They come to me for different reasons. Sometimes it's because they want to improve their own business and their own products, and other times it's because a client has said, hey, let's use this product. and they're going, oh my God, I've never used it before, help! And they find out that we're the local distributor, and so they come to us. So, um, for different reasons— sometimes they just want a blower door test, sometimes they, um, just, um, they're worried about delays on site, so they want to use the Proclima membrane to protect their frame because it's a long UV exposure under the warranty. Um, they basically just come to us for a little bit of extra help to create the outcomes that either they are wanting for their business to create a better product for their clients, or because the client has pushed them to.

Are these— is this type of terminology, things like airtightness and stuff, is that a building science terminology in the sense that would a builder use that with a client, do you think? Or a builder understand the concept the way you understand it?

Not— I wouldn't say the majority of the industry is quite up to that yet. It is in the building code as an alternative solution to the building sealing section. So under the building sealing section, it says various things like, you know, doors to habitable spaces must be sealed, or for example, or exhaust fans must be sealed or able to be sealed. It's got some loose language around that. But as far as achieving an airtightness score, the majority of the industry probably doesn't either know what it is, or if they do, they haven't done it yet. But it is starting to become more a part of the conversation because it's about energy efficiency, um, it's about lowering CO2 emissions, it's about indoor air quality. And then, then of course there's a knock-on effect because once you change the airflow and the air movement in a house, you change a lot of other things. So it, it's sort of something that builders are a little bit that they are a little bit frightened to go too far into because they don't want to— like, they don't understand, they don't understand it to a point where they feel comfortable going after it, which is what I'm here for.

Is it driven as well by consumers? I mean, I imagine consumers are more informed than ever about how their homes are getting built and what the implications are for themselves and the energy efficiency and everything, right? So Does it— do the builders have no choice if the consumers are coming to them with, with information already?

I think the builders have always got a choice. I think it needs to be part of the upfront conversation. So if you throw, oh, let's do a blower door test or an airtightness test on your builder after the contract's been signed and after this and that, then they're going to go, whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, I didn't sign up for this, what are you on about? Um, so it's really important if you're going to do any of this stuff to have a conversation up front. It's not a mandatory part of the building code yet. It's mandatory in parts of Europe and England and the US. It's not mandatory here in Australia yet, the whole airtightness thing. But if a client— it sort of becomes like, uh, everyone has to be on board if you're going to go after a particular airtightness score. All, all the parties have to know about it. They all have to be bought into the process, otherwise there's a much higher risk of mistakes being made and, um, yeah, not, not achieving what you want. So they, they do have a choice. It's not mandatory under the building code.

Is that something which you think the code needs to be updated at some point so it's incorporating more of these things?

Yeah, I mean the only large-scale change is gonna— it's only gonna really come when the regulations say that we have to. So yes, of course I'm in this space, I'm going to advocate for that. At the moment we've got about 70 qualified airtightness testers in the country, so we don't have the capacity to be testing every single house that's built at the moment in terms of the, you know, the, the equipment and the skill. Um, but It's certainly something that we all push for. It's also something that is being incorporated into STAR ratings. So when you have a STAR rating assessment done, it's— I'm not sure if it's currently part of the software or if it's still— it's been coming for a very long time, but it's a button that you can— a lever that you can pull in the software to say, I'm going to achieve 8 air changes per hour instead of upgrading my insulation. So it becomes like a part of the building envelope success story, part of how that envelope is going to be built. And then if you determine that in the, in the computer software, then you then have to do a blower door test to prove it. So yeah, we're still a long way— I think we're still a fair way from that being the norm, but it's certainly for those who are doing it and who understand it and see the benefits of it, it's definitely something that once you know, you can't unknow. and it becomes part of, you know, your quality assurance process as a builder and as a homeowner. As part of, you know, that's the biggest investment you're going to make in your life, highly likely, and the health of your family and your energy bills and all those sorts of things are really important, um, to take into consideration when you're designing and building your home.

Yeah, I think there's that moral side, but what are the other reasons that builders should really care about? Doing it this way and making sure that the homes they build are the best possible homes from a health point of view, from an energy efficiency point of view?

I mean, well, just wanting to build the best product you possibly can. It's a reputational thing to start with. And in terms of legal liability, there is a legal liability side to this. The building code is upping their requirements on the mold and the, what do you call it, health and amenity, the condensation requirements. All of that stuff is being increased. The star rating is being increased. All of these requirements in the energy efficiency and health space in homes is gradually stepping up as the codes change. And there have been some upheavals in the regulations lately with pauses and all sorts of things, and everyone's confused, and all the states are different. Um, but overall the requirements are increasing. So once you start increasing those things, once you start insulating a building more, once you start putting in better quality windows, once you start sealing up exhaust fans, and once you start changing the dynamics of how air, heat, and moisture move around a building envelope, um, then you, you change the way the envelope itself performs and you increase the risk of either mold on surfaces like condensation issues and mold growth on surfaces, or inside the building envelope itself, like inside the walls and the roof and the, you know, the cavities. Because you're changing how a building dries and changing the speed at which it can dry out if it does get wet. And they are going to get wet. It doesn't matter if a building gets wet, uh, it just has to be able to dry, and it has to be able to dry quickly. Now, I mentioned the hygrothermal simulations earlier, so hygro, water, thermal heat. They— this computer system models moisture and heat movement through a building envelope, and it determines a mold risk. So the liability piece is that there is a mold index in the building code. Uh, it's a performance solution for condensation management in walls. So if you don't comply with the membrane requirements of the building code under the condensation rules, then you have to perform one of these hygrothermal assessments instead to prove that your building, your wall assembly, or your roof assembly, or your floor assembly isn't going to prevent— present a mold risk in the future for the client. And you have to get under a score of 3. So it goes from 0 to 6, and you have to come out with a result under 3. So I've had calls in the last probably 12 to 18 months. I've had a couple of calls from law firm and an engineering firm asking me for these simulations because someone has built a building that went moldy and they're trying to figure out why and who's liable. So although it's, it's again not a widespread thing that people know about, it's very much in the building code, it's very much being talked about in my corner of the industry, and people are being sued for mold in buildings, and this is part of um, these condensation rules and regulations are part of what can go into an argument for that, for, for a, for a case. So, um, I mean, it's, it goes beyond just the moral, or let's be better for the environment, you know. It's not just about being a greenie, you know. People get sustainability and they think, oh, you know, some, some people don't enjoy being part of that. Um, I think it's too expensive or over the top, but it becomes more about reputation and liability, liability, um, uh, it's a— as part of the, part of the, part of the story, part of the impetus behind it.

Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned cost because obviously most of the listeners, they're custom home builders like Jackson, um, or they're, you know, large remodelers, that kind of thing. What are the implications on cost? How much more is it going to cost to build an average home if you're actually following best practice when it comes to all this?

Uh, it depends. There is a, there is a large scale. You can go from minimum code compliance up to Passive House and beyond, and there is a very large scope of costs that is incorporated into the, into that. Uh, I think when you're thinking about, you know, square meter rates and people want to know how much more it's going to cost to build one of these houses, I think it's, it's, there's a few different ways I can answer this question, but, um, one of them is, um, the focus when you're building a house is, for a homeowner, is generally on the things that you can see, uh, and the, the structure. Like, there's a lot of regulation around the structure, and you don't want a building that's going to fall down or burn down. And once that's taken care of, the rest of it is, the focus is on the finishes because that's what the client is going to see. And that's where they're going to put their money, into their finishes. But if you take a step back and think about the amount of money that is going into one of these, into your home, into your projects, and the risk that the builder is taking every time they build a house, because the building industry is very high risk for the, for the builders, then it becomes a bit of a different story. If you think, if you just got to shift shift your perspective a little bit to the things that you can't change once the building is built. You can change finishes, you can change paint, you can change taps, you can change benches, you can change cabinetry. But once the building is built, it's very difficult to rip off bricks or for cladding to change the, the assembly, what's going on that's going to be there permanently. So you can build a a million-dollar house, um, the way we would advocate for doing it, or the way that the National Construction Code advocates for doing it, the budget can be the same, but the house that— the house that's built better might have, I don't know, a slightly smaller footprint, you know. So it does— there's no doubt that doing it properly, just like anything, does cost more. It costs more in labor, and it costs more in in, in better materials. It costs more in, um, you know, if you're going to go down the route of airtightness, the, the ventilation, mechanical ventilation systems cost money. But having said that, you can also reduce the size of your air conditioning systems if you do it properly. You can reduce the size of your PV by reducing the amount of energy that the house requires. So Yes, the bits and bobs cost more, but it becomes sort of shifting the thinking to a bigger picture thinking, a longer-term thinking. And also the cost of the mental— the mental cost of spending $1 million on a house that you move into and it's cold and you're like, this is a 7-star house, I thought it was going to be warm and comfortable. and that's not necessarily the case because like I said at the beginning, what gets designed and modeled and built can be 3 different things depending on the team that you've got doing it. Not all builders are the same, not all architects are the same, not all materials are the same. So, you know, it— I guess it becomes a peace of mind piece as well, and that's something that homeowners and builders don't, they don't really think about at the outset of a project. They're thinking about how the house is going to look and having, they're so excited about all the parties they're gonna have in their house and the home for their family.

And that it's gonna look good for the opening house when you get the—

Yeah, and it, this stuff matters, man. Like how you feel when you look around in your house, also matters. But it's getting the right team who can give you all of the story, and then deciding an informed decision around what you place value on becomes a much more important part of the conversation than just the cost. So I'm— I don't want it to sound like I'm avoiding this question because I'm not. It's just more than price, it's more than the dollar. Um, And, you know, talking about where we come into play, our specialty is speccing and helping install the installation of the Proclima membranes. And there's a lot of builders who won't want to look at it because it's more expensive. It costs more to install because there's more detailing. It costs more to purchase because it's much better quality. It's a German quality product. But then you have other builders who would not go without it because it's an insurance policy. It's like one giant flashing that goes over the whole building that protects your timber frame, which is a water-sensitive material, from water. Buildings do not like baths. They don't like water. And the main priority of that building envelope is to keep the— protect the clients, keep them warm, and it's also to keep water out. And so the financial cost of a building that goes moldy or that gets a water leak far outstrips the cost of getting it right from the start. So that's my answer to that question. It's more than just the dollar.

No, no, I think of it from a builder's perspective as well. They should be educating themselves about all of this and upskilling themselves in the knowledge or working with consultancies like yourself. So that they can have these type of conversations with the homeowner at the very, very beginning, not after they start getting into the, like, beyond the scope and into the build and all that kind of stuff. They need to be educating the homeowner to say, yeah, we can do that finish, but this is the implications long term. Like, what's more important to you? And if you have those conversations, you're going to be positioned as the expert in the situation. You can be able to charge more for your services anyway. You'll be working with the type of clients you want to work with. So yeah, all that fun stuff.

Yeah, 100%. Um, I was going to say something while you were speaking. What was it? Oh, you were talking about upskilling. Builders and architects are not taught any of this stuff during the course of their studies. Um, they're not. And once you get your builder's license, that's it. There's no continuing professional development either. Architects at least have to continue their points to keep their qualification. Builders don't. They get— except in New South Wales and Tasmania, they have they do have a CPD program. The feedback is that it's fairly loose from people in those states. It's fairly loose, but it's there. The rest of the states don't have it. So once you get your license, that's it. You just build the way you were taught forever and ever, amen. Unless you start going down the rabbit hole. Unless, like Jackson did, you start— you have a— I think he was actually at one of your conferences in back in the early, early days. Uh, he met someone at one of your conferences who said, oh, you better learn about, um, airtightness, or you better learn about something, otherwise you're going to end up in a lot of trouble. If you start going down here, you could end up with unintended consequences. So that was a chance discussion that he had with somebody because he was at a conference, so he was already putting himself out there to learn, um, and happened to have that conversation. So it's, it, it's really the architects, like I said, they have to keep going, they have to keep going with their learning. But builders and and they're already so busy, they're under the pump, they're worried about, you know, the, the cash flow all the time. So finding time to get on a podcast or get on the YouTubes or get on a course or something, it's, it's pressure for them. So I totally get why they don't do it. They just head down and they get their work done. Um, but keeping yourself up to date with these things, particularly as the building code requirements are increasing. There are membrane— like, there are requirements on which membranes are allowed in which— in certain climate zones. And if you get that wrong, that mold index thing becomes an issue, and you're all of a sudden being dragged into court because you didn't even know that you were supposed to do— use a certain product in a certain climate. So it's— that's why I do my job. It's why I do my, um, my training so that that information is freely available to the builders who are looking for it.

Yeah, it's interesting. I talk to builders in multiple countries. I've had a couple of chats with people in North America that are actually Passive House builders and also someone in Scotland, and it's fascinating to see the similarities with how the building code is like behind the trends of what consumers want and what the builders are actually doing. It's like it takes a while to catch up.

Yeah, it does. And you know, the regulations— like, we often joke at conferences, like, it's actually up to the industry itself to teach itself. And I guess it's like that in maybe a lot of other, other industries as well. You get people who are just curious, um, who keep learning, and then they want to tell other people about it because they see the gaps in the industry, in the, in the knowledge. And yeah, we sort of, we learn amongst ourselves.

Talk to me a little bit more about the concept. Like you've mentioned so many different concepts about what goes into a healthy home, but can you dive into them a little bit in more detail?

There's so many. It's multifaceted, but I guess the two most important ones are, the two most important things are, Probably learning about airtightness would be the one of them. And there are a lot of people who don't want to know about it because they are fearful that that means they're going to suffocate inside their homes. Um, so we can talk about that. It's not, not the case. Um, and then there's like the moisture thing, the mold thing. Um, so, uh, you know, there's some research that was done a few years ago by the University of Tasmania that sort of said that 40% of new homes were, uh, affected by mold. Based on my experience, I think it's probably more than that. So there's also a large portion of the population that are affected by the biotoxins in mold, and some people aren't even aware of that. So there's this whole lot of implications that come along with accidentally trapping too much heat, air, and moisture inside your building, a building that can't dry. So yeah, mold is a big one that comes as an unintended consequence of like air tightness without correct ventilation. Then, oh, and also, you know, just bulk water leaks. And then there's things like material selection. So, you know, what sorts of chemicals are in the materials that we are specifying? Low VOC paints is one that's been on the table for quite a while now, talking about the chemicals, like the off-gassing from materials in the first 12 months, particularly of you build, understanding that there's chemical— some people have got chemical sensitivities. They're going to react to the off-gassing of the materials that get used in their house, down to, you know, things like water quality, water filtration, what else, electromagnetic frequency. Some people are really, really bought into EMFs and they are affected by them. And other people completely dismiss that as well. So, you know, there's that discussion. There is, you know, the indoor air quality issues, carbon dioxide, particulate, you know, all the indoor air monitoring that we do to monitor particulate matter. And, you know, it sort of goes on and on and on. But if I'd say probably the two easiest to understand, or the one that's easiest to understand is the airtightness of the envelope, because it's sort of the underpinning element of thermal comfort and building health.

Yeah, it's interesting. Like, the— as a homeowner, not a builder myself, like, it's kind of scary to think that, especially if you buy someone else's home that you've purchased from someone else. I mean, you can get inspections, the rest of it, but you don't really know what's happening inside the walls, like, which is kind of frightening as well.

No, you don't. And lots of people, when they sell their house— and I've got to put my hand up and say that I did this before I understood about mold. I'm studying an advanced diploma in building biology at the moment, so I've gone through all of the mold testing, um, post— post remediation verification training, um, and I'm going through the subjects of this— of this qualification at the moment. But before I understood about chronic inflammatory response syndrome, and before I understood, you know, all of this stuff, we painted over mold in our house and sold it. And a lot of people do that. They'll flip homes, they'll cover up really rotted timbers, they'll put plasterboard on top of plasterboard, you know, in wet areas because they're covering up mold. There's lots of things that go on, like you say, when you flip a house or when you're buying someone else's house. You don't know what you're actually inheriting.

And yeah, you can get inspections, but you know, they're not always going to find Everything about all the renters as well out there that don't have the choice of choosing. Yeah, anyway, that's probably a bit of a sidetrack.

Oh, I had a guy message me last week. His entire ceiling fell in from water damage. He sent me photos, you know, 10, 10 square meters of his ceiling was just open to the roof cavity, and it had been like that for weeks because his landlord didn't do anything about it. It's— that's probably one of the worst stories I've ever heard. But yeah, renters are in a real spot, particularly in cold climates where mold is a bigger issue. Well, the really cold climates and then the really hot humid climates where mold is a real issue.

That's it. I didn't realize that it was worse in cold climates. Is that because the snow melts and stuff, or condensation?

Because we've got a warm humid environment inside, because you've got humans breathing, cooking, bathing, watering plants, dogs. Um, you've got all this humidity inside and you've got a cold environment outside, and just like you Coke can. When you have a warm, humid— warm, humid air coming into contact with a cold surface, it condensates and gets moldy. So that can be on surfaces, it can be around windows, onto window sills, or it can be inside the wall cavity. Steel is a really good example of a place where you could possibly get— like steel framing— where you could possibly get condensation on the inside of your walls because that gets cold. It's highly thermally conductive material, gets cold. Warm air gets into the wall because you've got penetrations all through with your electrical outlets and your, you know, even your skirting boards can have gaps. There's warm air sort of pumping into the, uh, into the cavity coming into contact with a cold surface. And then all the, the incorrect membranes that get installed that don't allow buildings to dry, they don't allow the vapor to move through the building assembly, and, uh, condensation and moisture gets trapped inside that wall. So yeah, there's lots of things that can go wrong with moisture, and just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not problem, because moisture in the air, like vapor in the air, can very quickly become a water control issue if it's— if the building envelope doesn't— isn't prepared.

Australia, I guess, for the most part, apart from some of the extremities, is relatively moderate climate-wise. Does that mean you can kind of get away with, you know, not as— not being as strict with a lot of these things?

In places like Adelaide, yes. Like in the plains where I live, Climate Zone 5. So Australia is split up into 8 different building code climate zones. Um, as I said, the extremities— so Climate Zone 1 up in the tropics, and then Climate Zone 6, 7, and 8, which is most of Victoria, New South Wales, Tasmania, and then the Adelaide Hills— those climates, um, they, they're, they're where the moisture issues are for different reasons. One is because there's a ton of vapor in the air that sucks up into the buildings. And one is because the air turns into water, like the vapor turns into water. So it's all moisture issues, just different— manifests in different ways. The rest of us are pretty dry. Like Adelaide humidity is 40%, most 20%. You know, we get the odd day of 80-90% relative humidity in the air, and then it dries away, it goes away. So we don't get those prolonged issues. And same with, I guess, climate zones 4 and 5 are probably the mildest, maybe climate zone 3 as well. So like the South Australian desert. Once you get up to Brisbane or northern New South Wales, it's really bad for this, really bad for mold. And then once you get up into Queensland, Brisbane and north up to Cairns, then they have a huge issue because they have very open living. They live in the beautiful weather, why wouldn't you? They want their homes to be open and they want a lot of air movement. Um, but with that, and like, I have, uh, friends up in Cairns and they leave their ceiling fans on 24 hours a day just to keep the air moving so that things don't go moldy. And if, if, if the building envelopes were built in the way that we would advocate for them to be built, that wouldn't be necessary. Um, but it's just It's, it's a, it's a different mindset. It's a culture. Um, so yeah, it's all— I find it all fascinating.

A little bit too humid for me, Cairns.

I love it. I love it. I'm going up there in 2 weeks and I can't wait. Yeah, I went to school there for 2 years and, uh, I just yearned to go back ever since I left. So I've actually bought a place up there. We're talking about what you inherit, the problems you inherit. Um, I did my own inspection, of course. Um, and you know, up there, the, the building, like, they're made out of block, they're made out of besser blocks and steel because of the cyclones. I think there is an increasing number of timber buildings being built up there, which is risky because they're exposed to the humidity during construction. So yeah, I'm yet to find out a little bit more about that industry. It's very different to down here. Um, but yeah, I love the humidity.

You're moving up there or you're just getting— it's an investment property?

Investment for now. Maybe one day. I've still got teenage children, so I'm in Adelaide. My mum's here, you know, I've got friends here. My life is in Adelaide right now, but maybe, maybe one day.

Yeah. I mean, I'm in Sydney and I feel like it gets too humid here sometimes for me. Yeah.

I actually, I've been, I'm going up in 2 weeks. I came back from there in February and as soon as I got off the plane, I was like, the air in Adelaide is so dry. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay, so let's go back to the conversation before we get—

we digress.

The builders listening, they're probably thinking about, okay, how does this fit into my sales conversation? How does this fit into how I position my company and all that kind of stuff? So from that perspective, yeah, what would you say?

Okay, so you have to make a choice because like I said, this becomes a team effort. So become the client, the designer or architect, the builder, um, the consultants that you get on board— everyone has to be after a common goal. So if you're a builder who— if this sparks any sort of interest in you, um, I'm always here to ask questions if you like. But, um, you need to get the right people around you because if you decide that you want to go for a blower door test or an airtightness test on your project You're the builder and the client— the client's probably more likely to buy into it if you can explain to them what you mean. But the architect has to be able to detail appropriately. You know, your trades have to understand that if you put a hole in that membrane, it needs to be taped up. If you, you know, you need to seal around your bottom plate, you need to do all these different things. So in terms of incorporating it into your business, it's sort of— you either— it's not an all-or-nothing approach, but you do have to have a common understanding between everyone who's doing it, every— or everyone on the team. So, you know, if you start with just swapping out your mem— your membrane for a different type of membrane, then the, the people installing it have to understand why. Because if they don't understand why, then they will leave holes in it the same way they would with another standard sort of membrane, because that's industry sort of standard. Um, so the first thing I would do, if you want to understand, if you want to start learning about how to incorporate this into your business, I would start with learning about airtightness testing. Um, is that answering your question? Is that what you were getting at?

Like, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I go even further back than that. I mean, you're talking about just where would they get started, like, yeah, educating themselves more and then being able to have the conversations. But kind of like the journey that Jackson's gone on at Enduro and other builders that have positioned themselves as energy efficient or certified Passive House builders or whatever they want to do, that's, that's really powerful from a marketing point of view. And I'm always thinking about the very top end, right? So if you bring people in that are already interested about this particular type of of building and they want to build a home for their family, which is their forever home, which is healthy and energy efficient and all that kind of stuff, then you start having conversations with people that are already at a starting point of like a higher price and understanding exactly what they want, all those kind of things. So, I mean, I know you can't just like turn the dial and go from not doing it to doing it. It's a bit of a journey, right? Like to your point, like you need all your trades lined up, you need everyone lined up on the same page, but Yeah, I think about like dipping your toe in, like you mentioned, and educating yourself. But then, you know, the, the, as far as you take it is really up to you. And it can be a really powerful positioning for the business, I think, is what I'm getting at. If you can actually top to tail do it really well.

Absolutely. And the marketing is an essential part of it because if your marketing, like you said, if your marketing to people who aren't, you know, they're extremely budget sensitive and there is definitely a strong market for that. If they are very budget sensitive and if they want 300 square meter home, then going after airtightness and going after better materials and going— it's probably going to be a really uphill conversation and you're going to be bashing your head against a brick wall. So you need to attract the right sort of clients so that you can have the right sorts of conversations from the very start. And, you know, align your team, get you an architect. I encourage architects to team up with builders. I encourage builders to team up with architects so that you are all on, on the same page right from the start. Because builders can help with costing, they can help our architects with costing right from the early days. And architects can help out, like they work together to refine details, you know. They're not just going to site with a set of plans they've never seen before. They've been part of the conversation. They've got to know— the builder's got to know the client and vice versa. And everyone trusts each other by the time you get to site. So I think it's, it's definitely a valuable move for any building business, um, to adopt some or all of these things that I'm talking about. But collaboration is a number one piece, and marketing to the right, or like, the right clientele is very important.

Yeah, and that's all the positive stuff. And then there's the flip side, like you mentioned earlier, right? Like, you know, reducing your legal risk and, you know, abiding by future building codes, etc., etc. So, um, Probably recommend getting a consultant in your corner as well if you're going to do it.

Yeah, like you need someone like me who you can ring up and ask questions.

Like, I mean, it makes so much sense if you're going to go down this path and you don't have a lot of knowledge, then you do need to get someone in your corner.

100%. 100%. And there is a lot of information online already, like the YouTube University and the Instagram DMs and all of that stuff. But there's a ton of really good information, but it's also a ton of misinformation. And a ton of fear. So yeah, getting the right people to ask the right questions, and that can be really, really hard to know who's right and what's— but, um, yeah, finding a builder.

And I've got a, uh, someone, a potential client that's asking a lot of these questions. It'd be nice to be able to go, hey Jess, can you help me answer these questions?

And then yeah, um, I'll happily jump on a Zoom call or whatever and talk to suppliers, the clients, and there's no charge for that. Like, I just want to You know, at some point I just want to be able to make sure that all the goals and intentions are in alignment.

Yeah, I'm not going to encourage you not to charge, but that's, that's a different—

well, I mean, it depends on what the conversation is. It depends on what the conversation is.

Of course.

Of course. Yeah.

Uh, okay, where can people find out more about Climashore? Climashore.com.au. We'll put that in the, in the show notes, but if there's any APB clients listening to the episode today, Climashore in Australia is a rewards partner as well. So go and check out their listing on our directory. But that's the best place to get started, do you think, Jess?

Yeah. Yep. And the gram, but the link's all on the website.

Gram. Okay. Always good for a gram follow. So we'll get that in there as well.

Yeah.

Any final thoughts you want to leave the listeners with today? Any final tips?

Uh, can I give my own podcast a plug?

Yeah, absolutely. Let's get out.

Yeah, so, uh, I, I've, I've created my own podcast just over a year ago. January last year I started doing a podcast and I've called it the Building Sciology Podcast. It's a— I made up the word. Sciology is a combination of science and biology, so it combines my building science skills and career with my building biology, um, Studies and Consulting. So yeah, if you just look it up, S-C-I-O-L-O-G-Y, like, figure out how to spell that. I won't spell it out right now. And yeah, I interview builders and architects and consultants and homeowners and all sorts of people to sort of drag out of them some lessons learned and yeah, to spread some good information. So if you're a podcast lover, Um, there's a number of really good building podcasts out there. Mine is building science specific, so if it interests you, then go, go check it out.

Yeah, great. Well, yeah, we'll share the link to that for sure. I'll track that down and share it. But I think anyone that's listened to the episode up until this point will definitely be checking that out. You've, uh, you've been an awesome guest. I've learned a lot from you and, uh, extremely knowledgeable. So thanks so much for coming on, uh, the podcast today, Jess.

No worries, thanks for having me, Will.

Thanks to our listeners as well. Wherever you are in the world, go check out Jess's podcast, check out Climashore, check out APB if you haven't already, uh, and, uh, thank you very much for listening today.