241. The Hidden Cost Of Skipping Design With Sheryl Steinberg

Welcome to another episode of Professional Builders Secrets. In this episode, I interview Sheryl Steinberg from Sheryl Steinberg Interior Design in the United States. She's one of the premier national interior designers in the US with tons of awards and accreditations, and she shares a lot of interesting advice for builders on how they can think about the design process from, process from the very beginning of the build all the way through, so they leave customers a phenomenal experience, have beautiful photos to use in their marketing, and all of that fun stuff that leads to referrals and reviews. I hope you enjoy the episode. This episode of Professional Builders Secrets is brought to you by Apparatus Contractor Services. Apparatus provides full scope, end-to-end QuickBooks Precision construction accounting and CFO services for residential builders. If you feel like you can't completely trust your weekly and monthly financial reports, or you feel like you're flying blind, Apparatus Group will rebuild and operate your QuickBooks accounting system and give you precision construction accounting capability you can trust. Learn more at ApparatusTeam.com or on the APB Rewards Partner Directory. Welcome to Professional Builders Secrets. The podcast for building company owners wanting to grow safely and securely. I'm your host, Will Blunt, and today I'm joined by Sheryl Steinberg from Sheryl Steinberg Interior Design. Sheryl, welcome to the show.

Hi, Will. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. This is great.

Yeah, I'm really excited to have you on today. We obviously had a couple of conversations in the lead-up, and you've got some phenomenal experience to share with our audience today. So very excited to unpack all of that.

Oh yeah, I'm excited too. It's, it's great to like hear from a designer viewpoint when you're a builder, and I love hearing about the builder viewpoint as a designer. So it's kind of all works together.

For those watching on YouTube, you've got a beautifully designed background which obviously demonstrates your skill set as well, which is nice. A few awards back there, but also some of your products and stuff, which is cool.

Absolutely. You know, I won't get into what I do for consultations, but yeah, I mean, this is my office space. So thank you.

Beautiful. No, I love the tones and everything. Not that I have any idea what I'm talking about though.

Well, Will, if you need a consultation, you know where to go.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, actually, why don't we start there? Why don't we talk about what it is you do and where that all started?

Okay, great. As Will said, I'm Cheryl Steinberg. I'm owner of my interior architecture and design firm. Cheryl Steinberg Interior Design. I'm based in Bethesda, Maryland, right outside of DC, and I provide full interior design service locally as well as specialized remote interior design consultations anywhere you live. I work with builders, remodelers, and homeowners who want to begin their remodeling project with a really with a professional, clear design direction, a more concise scope of work, and really setting expectations to help create a general design efficiency and budget and some more accuracy right from the start. I'm a preferred partner with APB, and I hold a BFA in Interior Architecture and Design. I'm a member of the NKBA, the National Kitchen and Bath Association, and I'm LEED accredited through the US Green Building Council. I've been working— I've had my design firm for 15 years. This is a second career. My first career was in economics and marketing on the corporate level. And I always worked with designers and photographers in the marketing realm. And so I just always loved architecture, so I went back to school for this and it's been really great the last, I'd say, 15 years plus, you know, the— I did it kind of part-time, so it was like about 5 to 6 years of actual like classwork.

So that's a big change, the corporate career to, you know, working for yourself essentially.

It was a huge change, you know. Especially because I was in marketing, like I could market, I worked for some like big companies and I can market them. But when it comes to yourself, as all your audience will know, if you're working for yourself, it's a different ball game. So yeah, it's much easier marketing somebody else than it is yourself.

It's just, yeah, it is different. It's very different depending on your personality type as well. So if you're a little bit egotistical, it's a bit easier to market yourself.

Yeah.

So talk to me then. Okay, so how does the interior design process fit into, for the builders that are listening, which is most of our audience that are caring about the residential building process as a whole and that sales process they're having with customers, where do you fit into that ecosystem and how does it matter?

Oh gosh, it really matters. I mean, you really can't build without a design, right? And ideally, from the beginning to during the planning process, I would bring in an interior design. It helps to create a more clear and accurate— helps you with your design scope before construction even starts. When builders and homeowners are are aligned on the same page, a designer can really balance that out early on regarding selections, budget, expectations, timelines, helping the project run more smoothly and efficiently, communication. There's so many layers involved in a build project. And the customer, I mean, that's— they're in a different realm than a designer, you know, than a builder. And there needs to be a connection between the two in order for the process to run smoothly from the start. And I think that's where an interior designer comes in. And a few things to think about in terms of how design fits into the build process. I think it really adds to the builder's team and their, their own process. I think it really strengthens it. Interior designers are, I think, personally speaking, an essential part of the project team, really helping to bridge the communication between the homeowners, the builders, the architects, the contractors, the trades. As we, as you all know, there are so many layers, even your front office. You know, the, who's gonna call, who's the client going to call? So design is a huge piece of that. I think it creates alignment early on, getting in right from the start. It kind of aligns what the builder's budget is, their, the builder's needs, along with the client's budget and the client's needs. In terms of your audiences, the schedule, the cost, the homeowner's expectations, the overall project vision right from the start. It really adds to the efficiency, the project efficiency. You know, having a designer come in at the beginning helps to streamline this process and organize selections, reduces any kind of questions and confusions the client may have, the builder may have. And really, it's a— you work as a team. It's a support system for the decision-making throughout the process. You know, it actually adds to the management of the many layers of the project. You know, building without a clearly defined and accurate interior design scope You know, it can lead to redesigns, requotes, kind of backtracking, repeating your processes because without that communication, you may be guessing what the client really needs. And these clients do not speak builder speak. They don't speak design speak either. I come from the side of, I need to interpret what the client wants and needs in order for, the builder to build appropriately and to build what this, what the vision is for the client, if that makes sense. You know, they're coming from a more emotional side, I feel, and I see it all the time. You know, this is their, this is their, some of, in many cases, their life savings. This is their investment, and they're putting that trust into you, the builder. And if you skip a very important step in terms of the design and what their needs are, I think, you know, that's where all these efficiencies start to kind of pile on with each other and it causes you a lot of stress. And, and I think it affects your profitability, your operational accuracy, delays, scheduling issues. You know, once, once one thing goes off schedule, you know, 3 other people are off schedule and they're on to their next job. And then you have to figure that all out again. And basically, you know, I'm a firm believer in being proactive from the start with a process that is efficient and functional within your organization. And we all know that in this business, what can happen will happen. And I think, you know, you want to prevent that as much as possible. And adding in that design, that professional designer, not just someone who just picks, you know, you can always pick a faucet and a vanity, but, you know, what kind of faucet, what kind of vanity do they have? Special, special needs. Do they want to bend down? Do they want to pull out the drawer? You know, there, people have all sorts of, I've never had the same design twice. I've never had the same type of client twice. Everyone's so different. And I think in the end you want a great client experience and you want a great business experience. So the less you have to repeat and deal with delays, the more time you could spend on your, in your own business, on your own business, not necessarily in your own business. You know, gives you more time, less time to Less fires to pull out, put out. When I'm hired, I've been hired many times in the midst of a project. And even like, I had a client, for example, she hired a very reputable new build builder in this area. And It was a LEED home. She won the LEED credits. She had her mother living with her in her 80s, and this was a huge upscale home, and she was busy with her own business. And when she called me, I wondered why she wanted to hire me at this point. You know, it was basically built except for the finishes, some of the cabinetry, all the lighting, all of that. I was surprised because here she is in the midst of this multimillion-dollar project and she hasn't chosen these things yet. And she told me her selections, she, it was unbeknownst to her that they were generic. They were not lead. They did not reflect her vision. She didn't like what they chose. And most clients don't, like I said, don't understand builder process. And if you're a builder and you're just going ahead to build just to build to move on to your next project, it doesn't, for me, in my opinion, doesn't really work so well. The client's stressed, you're stressed, your people are stressed, and you're not happy. There's a lot of frustration. And obviously at this point it should have been discussed. And even as a designer, You know, just her saying she wanted to lead home with her mother in her 80s. I mean, that, that brings a whole lot of questions in my head for accessibility for her mother in the home. Quite honestly, the bathrooms were tiny and you could not fit a wheelchair, potential wheelchair, and she did end up being in a wheelchair. Luckily, they built a curbless shower, so they had that in mind, but It really caused a lot of— it was not good for the builder and it was not good for the homeowner. And I just, I was hired by the homeowner, so I did what she wanted and it cost a lot of upcharges, a lot of extra time, a lot of delays. So the moral of kind of like where does design fit in? It really should fit in right from the start.

Talk to me. Can we just take a step back for a second and define design? Because A lot of builders listening, they have design-build companies, so they take the customer all the way from the design process through to the end of the project. I guess the definition of that could be considered architectural design, so the structure of the building and how it flows and all that kind of stuff. But you're talking more about interior design, like the fittings and the way the the exterior looks, I think, or the exterior of the interior looks, as in like what the experience is like for the homeowner once they get in there. Does it look like their vision? Does it, does it align with what they were hoping to get from that? Where do those two things join, uh, and, and like what you're talking about here?

Ideally right from the start, because once that structure is in place, you cannot change the space planning or the floor flow. Um, my training is in interior architecture and design, so I have an IAD degree. And, um, I actually, when I went to design school, I was surprised. It was, it was very architecture heavy. I'm not a licensed architect. I'm not a licensed general contractor, but what I do see is the structure and the flow. And what's very important in interior design, you know, you can be a decorator. A decorator is not an interior designer.. It's not someone who, you know, watches a design show or a YouTube and decides that they're going to be an interior designer. This is a lot. This is, this is structure. This is important. And it's everything from space planning and the flow, lighting design. Lighting is hugely important. And I have found, and now it's not everybody, it's not every project, that lighting is just kind of an afterthought. Let's just put these recessed hands in. But when it comes to it, you know, there's, there's decorative lighting, there's layered lighting, there's task, there's ambient lighting, there are correct switches for specialized lighting and transformers and the electric oddly placed outlets. So when I, I'm not an architect, but I do do CAD drawings for the design. Now, it's a licensed architect would, for a new build, for example, would have, would be, would come up with the plans. I would check those and say, what about this, this, and this? I know this woman, I'll use this as an example, has a mother who's 85 years old. She's going to need, you know, there are commercial ADA requirements, but those ADA requirements can also come into the home. She needs 3 feet to turn around with a wheelchair. You know, they're without curbs, without the threshold, so she doesn't, you know, it can get through. That's just an example. You could have the same examples with young children, with, you know, just athletic people who have former athletic injuries. I've had that also where they need a special tub or they have special wellness needs. So there are so many things that go into interior architectural designer. Now, if you just need someone to, you know, put pretty colors in, that you could, you know, you can have a decorator, you could do it yourself. But that's not what someone like I would do working with a builder. I consult sometimes. Someone, a homeowner or a builder just needs a consultation. They, you know, they have these ideas, they have these drawings. But someone says, oh, I just want this kind of look. Well, instead of racking your brain and spending your time doing that, you can have a designer come up, say, you know, try, you know, one of these, you know, try this gray with the white. You know, this is just an example, but Even the type of grout, you know, grout is different in a wet area versus, you know, a different area. I am so after, personally, after, you know, over 15 years of building and doing my own building, I actually, I practice what I preach. I have remodeled 4 of my own homes. I've moved around the country. And let me tell you, I've seen it all, I think. I actually, I probably haven't seen it all because there's always something new, but especially with the technology now and AI, you know, these people might have these expectations, but this is, you know, I'll get an AI photo from someone and, but it's not real. Like you can't do that. You know, you can't put this plumbing on this exterior wall in your kind of environment that is not allowed.

Permitting.

I'm not an expert in permits, but I know the general, you know, the general dos and don'ts and what goes on underneath the tile, you know.

Yeah, it sounds to me from a builder's perspective that we're talking about just understanding the customer's expectations. So when they hand over those keys to the customer at the very end of a build, what does that feeling, what's that feeling like for the customer? Has it met their expectations of what that dream home was was like that they were looking for, that dream remodel. And I think there's so many unspoken expectations in that situation, and unearthing them at the very beginning of the design process is critical so that you can build a home that meets the customer where they were looking, like where their vision was going, right? And so if you just do like a cookie-cutter build with a flow and structure and design which doesn't necessarily align with what the customer's expectations are, then, you know, there's a big misalignment. You don't get customer reviews, you don't get referrals, and all of that kind of stuff flows on. So I think from a builder's perspective, that's why it's so critical to do this early on, like you're explaining.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, the— I think I, like I mentioned, you know, they're, they're entrusting you, the builder, to take care of it all. They, they have their own lives. They have— they're giving— they're paying you to do this the right way. And, um, I, I feel that you shouldn't leave out any step, especially when you're a builder. The last thing you want is someone coming back to you in 6 months and saying, wow, I can't even, you know, you know, this— I can't even man, you know, manage this house. The, the cabinets aren't right. The— this is not what I envisioned. I'm, I'm not— I'm very disappointed. I need you to change this, this, and this, and I'm not paying for it. You know, there, there's all sorts of things that go on like that. And like I said, being proactive from the start, you know, maybe I feel like don't— the cost of hiring an interior designer, or cost of hiring whoever you want to hire for whatever portion of the build, far is minuscule compared to the aftermath of things going wrong, backtracking, having do-overs, and really being frustrated and maybe even, you know, not enjoying what you're doing. And this is your business. This is your business that you're building. And, and it's a very specific business which has specific parameters. It has to— the build has to last through weather, through movement throughout the home. You know, of course things happen, you know, can you come by and fix this door, it's a little off now, can you fix, you know, all that stuff. And almost any builder will do that. That's part of your business. But when it's something major and you're not happy with it, that person will talk to other people and say, I can't stand what they did. They were difficult to work with. I can't believe I didn't know I needed a designer. I didn't I didn't know I needed a lighting specialist, you know, because they don't know what they don't know. You don't know what you don't know, and that is your job, and that's my job, to tell them what they don't know and what they need.

Yeah, I think at the end of the day, I mean, the price is the price. You're building that into your building contract. It gets passed on to the customer, really. But the way you explain that whole experience to the customer and build the value is around aligning with their vision to make sure they're not unhappy, and they don't want to be unhappy either, right? So as long as you're explaining that, and maybe a lot of builders would have like in-house designers as well that they might work with, it's the same process in the sense that as long as you're thinking about that from the very beginning is the most important thing.

Absolutely, and I think it's imperative for a builder to have a designer in the process right from the start. And kudos to the ones who do have it and the ones that don't. Maybe some people listening may, you know, may just be scaling their businesses now. And when you're scaling your business, I know the APB, you know, is all about that. And I myself have been in design coaching for interior design businesses. And it helped me tremendously in terms of scaling what I do, changing what I do, streamlining what I do. For a successful outcome and your boundaries and your processes and your— You know, you may have— I mean, there are so many different instances that you can use as examples and good and not so good. And the not so good ones, you either change or you learn from before your next project. And it just kind of builds upon itself. And I think when you're scaling your business, There's a general contractor that I've worked with for years and I love them. And he scaled his business over the last few years. And I think there were some growing pains and it made the process kind of choppy. So, and I brought it up to him, what, you know, what was going on, you know, this one was He's— he was the main guy, but now there are two other layers beyond him. And so if you're— your audience, if you're scaling your business, you really need to have specific parameters for those people. You know, you can't just jump around from one, you know, stay for 5 minutes and leave, and then another person's on the job who doesn't know what's going on. And then they're asking the wrong people, the customer that you don't want your customer to tell the your project manager what to be doing. Or underneath the project manager, there's like a site manager who's managing the trades, and then the designer gets called. But that's not, you know, other people cannot do what that person does because they're not licensed to, first of all. Um, at least in the United States, you have to be a licensed— you need to be a licensed contractor to do this work. A licensed plumber and a licensed electrician. So, you really need to think about the layers of people that you need. And obviously, this is about interior design, this program. So, I, you know, I really feel an interior designer is imperative. So, you don't have to do that job. You know, why do you want— you don't want it. Most contractors I know, or builders, they don't want to do design work. They want to be told what to do, where to place it, you know, what direction is the tile in, what color grout do you want. A customer doesn't know it. They don't know the type of grout for a wet area. They don't know, you know, certain materials shouldn't be used in certain areas. When you're doing a fireplace, for example, it better be fireproof very well and not using materials that would not catch fire, for example. But they don't tell you that, you know, if you're a DIYer, if you're a customer who is a DIYer and you don't, and the builder doesn't know. Anyway, you see where this is going. People start crossing paths and that just does not work. This is a safe, you know, it's a safety issue. You don't want to, you don't want to be with a mess at the end.

Yeah. Yeah. I think for the most part, like, experienced builders will have a lot of built-up experience around those portions that you're talking about. But I think you made a really good point around the customer doesn't actually know for the most part. If they've built multiple homes before, maybe they've got a little bit of a background and maybe they're experienced or researched in what they're looking to achieve. But most home builders or homeowners, sorry, they don't necessarily know exactly what it is they want. They've got a bit of a visual in their mind, but they're hoping that the builder takes them on that journey and educates them and is the expert in that experience. So, for the builder having a designer in their pocket, uh, in their team, in their arsenal to be able to talk to the customer and have consultations and deliver that expertise, um, and enables them to be that trusted expert, charge more, etc., etc.

Exactly. And you know, you don't necessarily have to have that designer inter— if you're just, you know, building your, your business or you're your designer that you have, that you already have, is overwhelmed with other business, but you just need someone else to bounce ideas off of, to get some advice. The client doesn't have to see that person. It could be your own consultant, you know, and they can take that information and bring it to a consultant, a design consultant, and, and they can work with them in the back area. It doesn't have to be in the front area. So it really depends how you run your business, what you, what you can build into that business, and, uh, how you, what kind of outcome you want.

Hmm. Okay. Well, Cheryl, uh, a bit of an opportunity to talk more about Cheryl Steinberg Interior Design. Tell me what the next step would be if a builder started working with you. What's the process look like?

So, um, I am on my website, Cheryl Steinberg Interior Design. I have a consultation page where you can sign up to, um, to have a discovery call, and we can go over your project. And then I, you know, I'd go into the details about our remote consultation. And typically what would happen is, um, we kind of—

in about—

I usually have them for about 90 minutes. Per, you know, per session. And we kind of go over the— it could be anything. It could be, wow, I have— we have this design. Can you tell me, does this work? Does it not work? You know, they love the color blue, let's say. And where could we put blue so it's not overwhelmingly blue? So there are different, different kind of things I go through. I go through how you can talk about your client, how they live, their priorities, their goals, their needs, the long-term vision for their home. Maybe they're going to be there, plan on being there 5 years, and they want to flip this home. Maybe they want it— this is their forever home, and you know, they're going to have their grandparents living, you know, the kids' grandparents living there. That affects— all those parameters affect your planning process. And I would go over kind of like these lifestyle questions, concept development, space planning, you know, what kind of layout are you looking for? Maybe they already have plans and we do a screen share and we look at the flow. And is furniture— do you have a furniture plan? Most likely not. Maybe you know where a table is going to go, but Do you really know where every bed and the sofa and their end tables and the grandmother's, you know, furniture, you know, piece, antique piece, you know, there has to be a space for all of this, including the outlets and the lighting. And I could easily go through that with them on a consultation. They show me their plans and elevations if they have them, or You know, it could be the very beginning. So, um, some of the selections, you know, do they like— what type of cabinetry are they looking for? Do they want that painted gray and white and kind of with some black, you know, accents or gold? You know, I can go through some of that. I could even— I'm not a sales rep for any company, but if they say, I only work with, for example, Company X, I'd say, okay, so Company X has a great line that looks like, you know, that might fit into that kind of style. So, they can check that out. So, they don't have to be thinking, oh, I have to go through the internet and find the right, you know, faucet. I'll say, do they want two handles or one? All those questions come so naturally to me, like I'm just reading them, saying them to you right now. But for a builder, his mind is somewhere else. His mind is on getting his team, construction team together, together, getting the material, you know, the construction materials, the planning, the financial part. So I kind of take this off his mind. At least it's a jumping point and he can talk to his client and say, you know, I have some of these ideas. What do you think? You know, based on what you've told me. So he kind of, you know, it's It's like having a private, you know, your own design consultant. And I've had instances where they want me to actually speak to the client on a remote level, and I can go through all this with them. And there, in 90 minutes, he has basically the start of planning his project. And they may say, you know, I want really great quality stone. Well, the builder's thinking, oh, maybe to keep costs down, we're going to use this, but that's not what the client wants. I've seen that also, kind of. And I, I don't want to say, you know, not that you're going to be lowballing your client and then they're going to go back and, and tell you, oh no, I wanted, I wanted the $80 per square foot stone, not the $30. So, you know, all those then you're gonna have to backtrack and then you're gonna have to tell the client, well, it's twice as much. This way, you know it upfront, at least as a jumping off point. Of course, people change their minds and you'll reevaluate, but at least it won't be too, I think, too much of an evaluation. And just kind of getting some lifestyle questions in. You know, do you have any special needs, any safety issues? Can't use stairs, you know, there are so— or do you need lighting on the steps so that you can see more clearly? Because I mean, I've had a client who was partially legally blind, but she could still see, but she needed extra care in terms of maneuvering in her space. I mean, I'm throwing out all these odd things, but I'm telling you that this is like what has gone on.

I—

it's Fascinating. You only know what you know, right, about people. When you go out into the public realm, you really learn about a lot of different issues that go on. And you want the end result. You want a great end result. You want, you want it to look great for your client. You want to photograph that, I assume, for your website and your marketing. So you want it to reflect your quality your, your, you know, your quality, your reputation, and your client wants it to reflect their lifestyle. This is all about their, their emotional lifestyle. And like I said, they don't know what they don't know. They don't know one stone from the other, but they know they want this beautiful look. But you have to tell them, or I would consult with you, well, this is a great stone. I wouldn't use this kind of stone because it absorbs absorbs stains. You wouldn't want to use this in a kitchen, but try this stone because it's antibacterial, it can withstand stains, it's easy, easy to maintain. So those— and, and builders don't have to keep thinking about those little details so they can focus on what they need to focus on. And if they need another consultation, that's fine too. Great.

Yeah, we'll make sure we'll share your website in the show notes so people can go and check that out. CherylSteinbergDesign.com is the website, which I have up now. It looks beautiful. So go and check out—

Thank you.

—Cheryl's website and all of your awards and accreditations with Houzz and everything like that. So go and check that out. And if you're an APB client, go and check out Cheryl on our rewards directory and you can get a cash rebate for working with her there. But Sounds like a discovery call is a great, great place to start, even just as a conversation around seeing, you know, tapping into your expertise around design and how builders can start thinking about it differently. But yeah, thanks so much for coming on the show today. I had a lot of fun. There was a ton of good tips in there for builders on the design process, and I'm sure people will get in touch.

Thank you so much. Thank you for having me on the show, Will, and I love working with builders and remodelers. I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't love it. And I love, I love just creating a fabulous home for somebody and having it built in a great way. And if you feel free to sign up for my free monthly design newsletters, and I have a blog for design tips and remodeling insights if you want to just get some great advice. Sounds like a good, good place to start. Thank you very much for having me on the show.

No worries. Thanks, Cheryl.