239. The Award-Winning Builder's Playbook with Chris Guilbert & Helena Tivey

Welcome to another episode of Professional Builders Secrets. In this episode, I interview Chris Gilbert from Tenfold Homes in Perth, Australia. Chris recently won an Emerging Builders Award here in Australia with the HIA, and he tells us a bit about the systems he's implemented in his business that helped him achieve that award over the last 12 months. We also bring Helena Tivy in from the Arrow Agency, who is the marketing agency that has worked with Chris and Tenfold Homes. Over the last 12 months or so and helped them implement some marketing which has really helped the company grow. It's a very interesting conversation and I recommend listening. This episode of Professional Builders Secrets is brought to you by Apparatus Contractor Services. Apparatus provides full scope, end-to-end QuickBooks Precision construction accounting and CFO services for residential builders. If you feel like you can't completely trust your weekly and monthly financial reports, or you feel like you're flying blind, Apparatus Group will rebuild and operate your QuickBooks accounting system and give you precision construction accounting capability you can trust. Learn more at ApparatusTeam.com or on the APB Rewards partner directory. Welcome to Professional Builders Secrets, the podcast for building company owners wanting to grow safely and securely. I'm your host as always, Will Blunt, and today I'm joined by two very special guests. I've got Chris Gilbert from Tenfold Homes. Chris, welcome to the show.

Thanks.

Great to have you on. And Helena Tivy from Arrow Agency. Helena, welcome.

Hey, I bet you say that to everyone, Will.

What, two special guests?

Yeah, of course, of course.

But I only have special guests on, so, uh, it's true. True and accurate every time. So a bit of background as to why you're both on the show today. Chris, obviously you're a client of APB's, but you've got your own building company and had some great success. So I want to share that story with the audience today so they can take some inspiration from that. But you've also been working closely with Helena and the team at Arrow Agency, who is a marketing agency based here in Australia. And Helena, you're going to hopefully provide a bit of insight into some of the great things that you've been doing as you're working with Chris as well. Maybe we can just kickstart things and Chris, you can give us a bit of a background about Tenfold Homes and where it's all come from.

Yeah, sure. So yeah, my name's Chris Gilbert. I'm the owner and director of Tenfold Homes. We're in Perth, WA. We specialize in lightweight construction builds and we do new homes, new custom homes and larger scale renovations and extensions.

Sounds good. That's, uh, that's exactly our audience listening to the show, so it's going to be good.

I think it'd be pretty similar to everyone.

Yeah.

And Helena, a bit of a background on Arrow Agency and how you've started working with builders in Australia.

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Helena, I'm co-founder of the Arrow Agency, and yeah, so we partner specifically with residential builders and we work with them to build predictable lead generation systems, like more predictable marketing, which allows them to have more control and more certainty over that pipeline of work. So it's a bit more in-depth than, you know, your average lead generation type situation.

How did you two meet? How did that all start off?

Was it at the summit?

It was, yeah, it was at the summit, yep. I think we had a pretty good conversation at the APB summit. And I think I signed up with you about a week later.

That's right. It was— so what's that, like 9 months ago now? Yeah.

Yep.

Oh, it's gone quick.

Chris, were you actively looking for a marketing agency when you met Helena and the team at Arrow, or is there a problem you were trying to solve that was kind of just bothering you?

I don't think I was actively looking. Um, I think like probably most other builders, they didn't— you don't really know what's out there until you come across something better. And when I had a conversation with Helena at the summit, we talked about a few things and a few flags popped up, and I just went, no, there's way more that needs to happen here. There's more that can be done. There's more insight from, from them that can, you know, that can help us. Um, so yeah, I just dove straight into it. I got a really good first impression. Ran with my gut and went with it.

So you're working with another agency, uh, already?

Yeah, we worked with a few other agencies in the past. Um, uh, yeah, and haven't bounced around a lot, but, you know, progressively got better. But the jump between what we were working with to what we have now with, with Arrow was a really big change.

And by working with marketing agencies in the first place, what, like, what fundamentally are you— were you trying to improve with your business?

Um, I think it was more we needed a more holistic approach. Um, we really needed to have someone that could get into our CRM system, refine the data, have a proper meeting about what the actual numbers are. So then we can actually plan and be strategic each month rather than what we had before, which is just a report getting sent our way with a whole bunch of numbers that we would then have to try and decipher into what reality was. Instead, now we've got a system that we can— I can have my CRM system open with my reporting page. I've got my KPI workbook open with that stats in there. They've got their stats and we can just look at everything together and see what's working, what's not working, and kind of make instant changes.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Helena, from your perspective, I suspect just, just based on what Chris has said, most of the people that would come to you looking for marketing services and new leads and, and a marketing system in place for their building company wouldn't be as progressed as that. Would that be fair to say?

Um, we get like a variety of people coming to us with all different levels of knowledge of what they need and what they have in place already. But probably one of the biggest things I would say is most time I— most times I speak to a builder and they think they have like a lead problem, but they actually have a strategy problem. And so a lot of what we do is really working with a builder initially to help them understand and help us understand, before you put any money into advertising, like, who specifically are you targeting? What message are you trying to, you know, give them? What are you offering them? Like, what's your niche? What's your specialty? And probably the positioning is one of the biggest ones. Like, a lot of builders are like, yeah, I really, you know, I want the premium client, but then you look on their website and, and they look like basic builder. So of course anyone that's premium, that has a bit more income, disposable income, is going to land there and then instantly think, oh, this isn't for me, this, this person's not talking my language. So it's really about like foundationally, like Chris said, being really holistic with your approach and, and understanding the journey that that client's going to go on before they speak to you.

Yeah, that makes sense. I think what I'm trying to understand from your point of view, Chris, as well, and just from a marketing point of view. I want to take it further back in your journey, like understand a bit more about Tenfold Homes and how you even got into wanting to market in the first place. Because I think there's a lot of listeners out there that might be further away than you think on their journey, and they may not have even invested in marketing at all, or they've never worked with an agency and kind of maybe tinkering with the ideas because to Helena's point, they think they need leads or they think they need more business kind of thing.

Yeah, sure. So I'm exactly the same as what those people would be, and I think probably most people, we've all started the same way unless we've taken on another company from somewhere else. But we all start from the beginning, we all have to learn the marketing and how it works. So I started off doing, trying to do social media posts myself, crappy photos of sites, and, you know, just try and get some kind of content out there. And then, you know, when you start in the beginning, you don't have like the glossy pictures, you don't have professional photos taken. So it's really hard for someone like a builder to come up with creative content. You know, there's a lot more resources now than what there was when I first started doing it, but it was hard to come up with good content then. So I engaged with a marketing company You know, they would do kind of some basic content, a little bit, you know, just some creative content, not so much marketing or project focused. We'd get a few of those out. But over that period, you know, I got a lot of leads in, but none of them were the leads really that I wanted. You know, out of 300 leads, maybe 298 were disqualified. So it was a lot of work for me to go through all those leads as well. So there's a lot of time on my side as well. And then I went to a different company, slightly improved, got a little bit more honed in on the niche. I think that's really important is like, is just, you know, what I've learned from marketing as well is it's not like a tick and flick. You don't just come up with your avatar, leave it, and you're done forever. Like, you know, we've changed our avatar and our, you know, our niche statements probably 5 times in the last year. Just to really just hone in on them, not completely change, but like refining them. Um, and then, you know, from that, that next point of marketing growth is you're getting a slightly better amount of leads come through, but you're not really understanding the quality of leads and the numbers. Um, so with a bit of coaching came with me and my wife then actually starting to understand the messaging and how important that was. So we leaned into the messaging part of it. And then when we took on Arrow, what the benefit of that was as well is really being able to lean on them a lot more than we ever had in the past. They were really open to, you know, working with us with more things, whereas I think a lot of other agencies are, we're just providing the content, that's it. Whereas, you know, Arrow will jump in, they'll audit your CRM, they'll audit your messaging, they'll audit your website. They kind of check on everything to make sure all those little marketing ducks are in a row.

That makes sense because at the end of the day you're accountable to results, Helena. So you've got to try and get all the stuff in the right place.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think from my, my whole career and my experience in marketing, the thing that really stands out to me with builder marketing is because the, the lead times are so long and the sales cycle's so long that, um, that holistic approach and that journey that the customer goes through is so important. It's not like a quick transactional. You really have to work to build relationships with people over time. And so if you kind of ignore that, then, you know, you're just going to get price checkers and Yeah, I'm trying to keep my cool.

I spit my water all over myself, uh, during that conversation. So I'm watching on YouTube.

You were just so shocked.

What did I say?

Chris, you mentioned, you mentioned your niche statement and your avatar. Can you explain a bit more about what that means and, uh, maybe even share like what yours is at the moment?

Yeah, so I mean, we started with, um, you know, who do we want to build for? Um, and that's hard to do at the start for anyone, but you just got to put something to pen and paper, I think, and just go, well, who's, who's your market? Who would you like to build for? And start the journey with that. Um, as it's progressed, it's grown, um, because we've worked with clients that we know, then they're the ones that we like, they're the ones that we want. So, you know, primarily we build for families. So we've found that we're more of a family home builder. I've got 3 kids. I'm a family man. So there's a lot of relatability with our clients like that. They're by no means, you know, the top-tier income earners. They're sort of the mid-range income earners, but, you know, enough to afford what we're putting out there. But it's created a client that we can work with, we can work with well, and it just helps our process, you know, go forward a lot better as well. So yeah, that's kind of our marketing strategy is to keep with that niche and keep working on it, just keep refining it.

How does that feed into what you do, Helena, like as the agency in the piece? Around the avatar and the messaging? How much does that work into everything that you're delivering on?

Well, it kind of ties back to what Chris was saying before about the messaging. So as he mentioned, the messaging, the way that you communicate to your potential clients or your future customers, is obviously really important. But by understanding your ideal client, you understand what their pains are and what their fears are. And you can understand like what emotions that you can sort of tie into to really connect with them and make them kind of trust you. So there's a lot of obviously distrust in the building industry, and so it really is about if you can answer a few of their worries and concerns and put their minds at ease and make them feel like they can, you know, know, like, and trust your company, then obviously you're starting off on a much stronger foot than, you know, someone they've never even heard of before.

Yeah, absolutely. Chris, I want to dive into some of the props you've got behind you. So we've got a couple of door handles, uh, over your left shoulder, I'm guessing. I don't know if the camera's reversed. And then we've got the APB's SAUCI 2025 report. You'll need to get 2026 in there as well at some point. Um, if you can, maybe at the Perth event this year, that will get you, get you 2026. What were you gonna say?

Oh no, I'm just gonna say there's a big stack of books on my desk as well. Oh, okay.

Yeah, so the main thing I wanted to ask about is your awards there. So you've got 2 awards there. I know you won the Nationals Emerging Builder Award for HIA. Is that one of those over there?

Yeah, so yeah, that's the big blue one in the other corner.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, so we won a couple for the WA region, then that put us into the Nationals, and we took out the Emerging Builder for the Nationals, which was, um, a big surprise if I'm honest. We really weren't expecting it, um, because there was some pretty good other builders in that category, um, as well. So yeah, really surprised by that.

What are some of the criteria for winning those awards? Because we've spoken a lot about marketing, but I imagine there's, there's much more to it than just the marketing.

Yeah, there is, um, Funny enough, I actually got some feedback from the judges after as well. And they said a lot of it came down to which— what separated us from a lot of the other guys was how much growth we'd seen and how many systems we had brought in in the last year. So we rebranded at the start of last year into Tenfold Homes from Gilbert Construction. We brought in a lot of systems from the coaching as well. We've got really good financial tracking, project management tracking. So all of the little systems in place really made us stand out of how much we'd done in the shorter time frame.

And so that was a part of your application for the award, that process, or?

Yeah, so we put a lot of that content in there. So, you know, we highlighted that we're using our KPI workbook to track financials and revenue forecast. We highlighted, you know, the CRM system that we're using to bring our marketing leads in and nurture them and give them information. We highlighted our handover process. It's kind of a combination of everything and also our drive. So what's our drive as a business? And that's pretty heavily client-focused. We're just trying to provide the best experience that we can.

Yeah.

That's cool. Well, it's good recognition, I think, just reinforcing everything you've been doing. It sounds like you've made a ton of progress and even just in the last 12 months.

Yeah, it was nice because I think as builders you don't really get much recognition until something like that happens. So like you focus on the doom and gloom of the things that don't go wrong in a business. You very rarely look back and go, oh, we've done that, we've done a lot, we've done well.

Yeah, I'm sure a lot of it sometimes it's like they only contact you when there's a problem, the clients anyway.

Generally, yeah. Yeah, yeah, there can be 100 things that go right, but they'll focus on the one thing that goes wrong.

Yeah, that's it. Um, I lost my train of thought. Any, any thoughts, Eleanor, that you want to jump in with?

It always happens to me as well. Um, I feel like when you're recording something, it just— you, you, um, clam up. Um, my thoughts on that were just in the sense of obviously awards are a great asset you can use back into marketing as well. So, you know, make sure if you do have awards that they're on the website and you put them on your socials and, and reference those on your ads as well, because it really just adds credibility to the business. And, um, and I think that's when that sort of compounding and snowball effect starts to happen, when you start to layer in things like awards, because it really amplifies, you know, you as a business and as more of a standout, unique.

Yeah, and it helps with that early journey too. So that's something I struggled with when I first started, was getting that, um, that level of authority. So, you know, the first things I did was, uh, you kind of purchase it, so you, you know, you get your memberships and that's kind of your first level, um, and then you just gotta earn the next few. And then you get to a point where you got enough confidence of knowing what you're doing right, that you can kind of back yourself with the authority as well.

That was good. You guys could just keep chatting if you want. Save me having to—

We do every month.

Yeah, just have a client meeting now and we'll just keep it recording. I did. Thank you for filling the space though, because I remember what I was going to ask you, Chris. You mentioned you changed the name from Gilbert Homes to Tenfold Homes. Talk to me about why— is that right?

Gilbert Construction to Tenfold Homes.

What's the reasoning behind that? Is that something to do with having a sellable company in the future, or?

It wasn't— that wasn't the drive behind it. So for a long time, so Gilbert Construction obviously goes back from when I was on the tools, you know, ran like smaller scale projects, bathrooms, kitchen renovations and things. So we started off small. It's just the name I had from when I was subcontracting to other builders as well. Um, but I could never settle on a, on a name that really reflected what I, what I want. Um, so I eventually found that as Tenfold Homes, and it was— that was kind of the driving point of, you know, our marketing as well, of knowing like what we want to be, where we want to go, where we want to sit in the market. Um, and what we're selling. So yeah, that was kind of the, the transition through that.

Yeah, makes sense.

I was going to step in as well. Like, I love that because one of the biggest things I would say to anyone that's thinking about setting up or starting a building company is make sure it's like, it does what it says on the tin. Like, if you— people come up with these extravagant names, but the best name you can have for like an SEO or an online visibility perspective is for it to have in the name what it is. And for example, with you, Chris, like, construction obviously is fine, but because you're building homes, like, people that want to build a home are going to align much more with a business that's got homes in its names rather than construction. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. And that, you know, the early onset days when we were Gilbert Construction, you know, we were doing little commercial projects and you know, all sorts of different stuff, industrial ones. And that just took a bit of a hard line for me to go, no, what's my path? What do I like doing? And then just cut those out. Sometimes you just got to cut it out and focus on the things that you enjoy doing.

Yeah. So it was like a symbolic change, I guess, in a way.

Yeah, it was a— yeah, it was just— it really just reaffirmed the direction that we wanted to go in.

Yeah, I mean, and all the things you're talking about, all of the things you've implemented to win the award, all the different systems, financial systems, marketing systems in your business, plus the name change, I think it all does tie into building a more valuable asset that could potentially be handed over or sold to someone else in the future if you wanted to. You don't have to, of course, but I think one trap that a lot of builders fall into is like they're the center point of everything in their business, right? And then at some point that becomes very tiring. As you, as you get further along.

Yeah, yeah, 100% agree. Um, I've, I've, I'd still go through the hard slog of being the, the be-all end-all of all answers that, that come in. Um, but I'm slowly building my team and being able to remove myself from that day-to-day position and look at things just from a business perspective. Um, you know, I've got 3 daughters. I don't know if any of them want to take over the company, but it'd be great if one of them did and it's still around. Otherwise, if it's built into a saleable asset and I just, you know, retire at 45, I'd be happy with that too.

Yeah. I mean, the other option is you can get a GM in, like a general manager or something, and then you can say, yeah, which we see a bit as well. So yeah, yeah, you got options there if you've, if you've actually done it. Set it up so you're not, not relying on you.

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's important to have those personal goals that tie into your business goals as well, because you can have all the direction in the world with your business goals, but if you don't have your personal ones that are in line with it, then you kind of don't have that direction, and I think that might fall to the wayside a little bit.

Yeah, that's a great point, and like, thanks for sharing you've got 3 daughters. I mean, there's a lot of builders out there who want to spend more time with their family or I mean, maybe you do want to hand over the business or whatever the personal goal is related to your personal life. It makes it more motivating to turn up every day.

Yeah. Yeah. You've got to have your drivers, I think, especially being a builder. Like, the industry is pretty tough. So you can— you— when you— when you have your downs and your hits, they're normally pretty hard. Yeah. So you've got to be able to focus on what matters, put that aside. And, um, and keep ticking away because it's not, it's not probably what everyone else thinks outside of the building industry where it's all sunshine and roses and we're all making millions of dollars. It's not the case. It's just, it's all risk really. We're just managing risk.

There's, there is millions of dollars involved, but it's not necessarily not in our pocket. No, exactly. Um, which is, yeah, common misconception if you go beyond the industry for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah, so you're working with— oh, sorry, Helena, you dive in.

No, I was just going to say that's like, I think that's any business ownership.

Yeah.

Um, but with the goals thing as well, just to tie that into the marketing angle, I think it's really important to go into your marketing with very clear goals as well to make sure you can understand what you're going into it for, what you want to get out of it, and be able to track and measure that and set KPIs around it too, um, because it is just part of your broader business strategy, right? So you've got to make sure it all ties in together and makes sense.

Yeah, that's a great point. I mean, how do you think about that, Chris, in terms of you've got your personal goals and then your business needs to get somewhere for you to achieve those personal goals and then marketing sits below that, right? Like it, like, all trails up in a way.

Yeah, I think it definitely does trail up, actually. Yeah, yeah, there's definitely a direct correlation between all three of them, um, because the end of it, your personal goal, you're not going to get there unless you're ticking those little boxes as you're, as you're moving up.

So you're working with Arrow Agency on your marketing. Is that some— is that a principle you've taken into other partnerships as well? Do you work with other outsource partners to help execute parts of your business?

Yeah, I do. I, um, very early on I leaned into it, um, with APB. So I think one of the first partners I got on board was SmarterCRM, um, because I had another agency, uh, advertising agency in, and I, you know, being on your own, the first thing I wanted to do was make sure that I had something that could handle the leads coming in. So I didn't want to be spending all this money and then not having a system that could handle the, the lead generation that came in and the conversions. So that was one of the first ones I did. And then project management, I partnered with WonderBuild, um, I'm with Arrow Agency, uh, and then I've also got, um, local networks, so as well, so like supply networks and stuff over in Perth that we sort of partnered with as well. I think that's probably one of the most important things for me is, is the network around me makes things a lot easier, and it tends to open up doors for new kind of new opportunities. The more, the more people in those networks that you talk to and, you know, problem solve things together.

Tell me about WonderBuild. I hear a lot of good things about where it's come from.

Uh, I love WonderBuild. Um, you know, I've used other softwares in the past, um, but getting on with WonderBuild was, was a really easy decision for me. Really user easy. It was not a huge outlay in terms of fees for what I needed as well. So the value for money was great and their service is, is unbelievable. They're always just getting better and better and better. And we've really embraced WonderBuild as a team. So we've got really good systems in place where 90% of our stuff is through WonderBuild. and it's just all in one place, really easy for us to manage.

Yeah, cool. So the SmarterCRM is managing the front end, like where the leads come in, nurturing the content, all that kind of stuff. And then, uh, once you, once you close the deal, it moves into WonderBuild, or at what point does it move in?

Yeah, that's right. So, um, SmarterCRM manages all the pre-sale, so it's all the lead leads in, uh, before we've converted them into any kind of prelim agreement or concept design. And then from there, they're picked up into WonderBuild. We manage all the communication through, through WonderBuild. The document section's all through there. We share our specs, estimates, everything all goes through there. And it's just a good way of just onboarding them into the way that we work from the get-go.

What makes you want to work with an external marketing partner rather than bringing someone in-house?

Yeah, good question. So my wife actually does all of our organic social media, um, so she does our organic regular social posting, and then Arrow handles all of our paid advertisement. They do have like similar messaging and tone and stuff, um, but we find the paid service and advertising is a little bit of a different realm and outside of our area of expertise. So that's why we use an external company to manage it for us. They're the experts in that field. So I kind of compare it to, you know, yeah, we could go get, you know, 2 tilers or something like that and just have 2 tilers on board. But instead we go to a specialized tiling company that manages all the tiling work. They know what they're doing, they're doing the best job that they can, so we use them.

Interesting. So you do a lot of that with your building side of things as well, in terms of like contracting out rather than having in-house team?

Yeah, WA is a little bit different to most of the other states. Um, it's a lot less common to have trades on books here. It is something that we're working towards and trying to bring our carpenters in-house because we predominantly do 98% lightweight construction, it makes more sense to us to have that control inside. Yeah. But it's a lot less common over here to find builders with trades in-house.

Helena, what's your pitch to someone who's thinking about in-house versus an agency? I mean, immediately I think of, you know, you're actually specialized working with builders, right? And so you've got access to so much more information and understanding about what's currently working. I mean, how quickly everything moves in paid advertising, that's invaluable. Like that, and then like no individual builder could learn quickly enough to stay up to date with that.

Yeah, definitely. And a lot of our value comes from the fact that we only work with residential builders. So we know all the trends we see and we can make changes and adjustments to things based on the industry. One thing that's growing very rapidly at the moment is the SEO AEO space as well. So we're finding a lot of our clients are getting a lot of inquiries through AI search platforms like ChatGPT. So a customer will be like researching which is the best builder on ChatGPT now. So there's a whole new realm of AI coming into it as well, which we're all across because we only have to worry about it for the building industry. You know, we don't have to think about that on all these different levels. So, um, if anyone was thinking about whether to bring it in-house or, or use an agency, we're not opposed to people wanting to take it in-house eventually. If someone leaves us because they've bought it in-house after they've been working with us for a while, like, that's a win for us. It's, um, it's about partnering with the right people that, you know, are going to work with your business. And another thing is, like Chris was saying, his wife does the socials. Like, we still look at things very holistically, and we want to make sure that that is aligning with what we're doing. We don't treat them as like these lines in between things. It's like, okay, we're taking care of this, but we can help you make sure that this is going to work in line with that. And, and this is also— and it's all kind of singing the same tune and heading in the same direction, which is really important.

Yeah, cool.

Well, thanks for sharing. I mean, if we were to do a live demo now and, and search for lightweight custom homes in, in Perth, how would we go on ChatGPT?

I don't know, I've tried it on Google, but I haven't done it.

Is that the term I'd go for? 'Best lightweight custom home builder in Perth.' How would you say it?

Yeah, I reckon that would work.

Yeah, it's interesting because like, and I think Chris, we're just working with you in the paid advertising space at the moment and, and we'd love to, you know, talk to you about the SEO and AEO as you kind of grow your online visibility. Um, but the difference is it's question-based Um, so it's like rather than people going on Google and searching for that keyword, they're actually going to ChatGPT and asking questions about it. And so usually the AI will then be like, would you like me to recommend some builders that— and then it's like, you want to be ranking in.

Yeah, yeah.

And as I know APB already educates their members, it's, you know, the best thing you can be doing is having Q&As on your website.

Sorry, this has turned into an upsell pitch. Maybe we'll, maybe we'll move on.

Well, it's, it's been a slow burn for us, you know. We haven't just dived into everything in one go. We started off with the paid social media, then went into the Google advertising. So it was good for us to do it like that because then we could test what different things were working really well.

Yeah, definitely. Um, but there are things people can be doing without paying someone to do it as well. So 100%, but it is important, like you say, Chris, to like, paid advertising is going to be the single thing that gives you the biggest impact because you're paying to be in front of an audience that didn't know you existed. So obviously that's going to be the thing that gets you from the A to the B the quickest.

It's also more data-driven, right? So if you know how much you can spend to acquire a qualified lead that you can turn into a proposal or a contract, then you can more confidently invest in paid advertising knowing how much you can get out from that. Whereas with things like AEO and content marketing, all these things, it's much more of an intangible.

Yeah, it's a bit more like referrals, isn't it? You can't control it. There's no maths equation behind it.

I mean, they all work together really importantly, but yeah, I mean, this could be a long conversation. We might need to—

And then the second podcast—

They're going, oh no, they're going, oh no, these two marketers are about to go on a tangent about something I don't care about.

No, I just stepped out of the room mentally for a second.

Yeah, exactly. Fair enough. Fair enough. Well, Chris, just to kind of round things out, actually, let's start with you, Helena. Just to round things out for the interview, what's one piece of advice you'd give to builders who are looking to improve their marketing?

I think the first thing to do is to get really clear on, you know, your positioning, who you're speaking to. So all this ideal client stuff, effectively, like really understand who your ideal client is. And you can go and have a, you know, a good old chat with Claude or ChatGPT and figure this out. Like it's It's, um, all the tools are there and it's, you know, there's a lot available. Um, but yeah, the pains and just have a really good, a clear understanding and then ask yourself, am I currently presenting in a way that is speaking to these people? Like, does my website currently represent this type of person that I want to attract into my business? And if the answer is no, then there's probably some work that needs to be done to get you to where you need to be.

Yeah, that's a great point. I think, Chris, you, you touched on it earlier in terms of your avatar, like thinking about the clients you enjoy working with the most. And sometimes that does come from, you know, working with a lot more clients over time, right? Until you really understand that. But to Helena's point, if you, if you do have a good understanding of that and then you can audit all your current marketing to see whether it's actually talking to those people, it's a pretty good starting point.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally agree. Yeah, I mean, it makes it pretty easy with things like AI to be able to do things like that as well now. It's actually just, you know, refine things. You can refine things so much quicker and check things than what you ever could before.

Yeah.

All right, let's go broader than marketing then. And Chris, I want you to wrap up with one piece of advice you give to the builders listening today. I mean, the journey you've gone on is super impressive, from the awards obviously the results, but everything you've implemented in your business is, you know, people can draw inspiration for that. So what advice would you give to builders listening?

I think thinking back on what's helped me, you know, get to where I am over the last 12, 16 months, you know, with the growth that we've had, is probably lean into things, ask questions, talk to people. And build that network around you as well. I think it's, it's really important to have that network around you, you know, not just like suppliers, trade partners, associations, but even like other builders around you as well. You know, I've got a mate who's a builder in Perth with me. Yeah, we, we talk probably 4 times a week. It's probably a little bit unhealthy, but you know, we're problem-solving things together that, you know, I'm finding struggle with, he's finding struggle with. I think that's a really good thing to have.

Yeah.

Um, so that's probably my biggest advice is, is get that network around you and talk to people.

Is he getting coaching with APB or—

Yeah, we've got the same coach as well. Oh really?

Might be a bit of groupthink going on there.

Yeah, I think she's even said it's unhealthy as well, actually, how much we talk.

Is it always about building and business that you're talking?

No, no, there's the personal check-ins as well, which is good. Yeah. So you can kind of lean on those people who get it, you know, when things aren't going right. But also we're going through kind of a bit of similar growth pattern. You know, we're taking on new staff members and stuff. So we're always talking about different systems and you know, what's, what's, what's working well for you, what isn't working. So I think that really helps.

How did you meet each other initially? Like, how did you become friends and stuff?

Uh, well, we actually went to school together but different years.

Okay.

And then, um, I better give him a shout out actually. It's Jono from Pattern Building. So we went to school together but different years. And then, um, when I joined APB, it comes up with the little message, you know, welcome new members. And he saw me on that because he was already a member and reached out. And I think we had a cup of coffee like within about 2 weeks and had a chat. He helped me get a few of my first concept design agreements set up. Um, so yeah, it's just a— it's just about those partnerships, whether you're actually financially partnered or whether you're, you know, just leaning on each other. I think that helps.

Yeah, I think that's really important. Like, just, just that relationship where you can feel like you can talk to someone else in a similar position can be massive because Otherwise it gets pretty lonely at times and like it can get really hard if you don't know if you're doing the right thing or not.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you can overthink things as well, thinking that, you know, you're the only one going through this, this problem or, or trying to figure this out. And 9 times out of 10, someone's done it before you.

Yeah. I mean, everyone's going through similar things, uh, to a certain extent. Obviously every company's unique in its own ways, but um, it's a pretty tough industry at times.

Yeah, it is.

Yeah, I'm sorry, I was going to say that's why I love the events as well, because like all the builders in a room, especially the summits, it's such a big event, um, and they're all sharing experiences and meeting each other and just, you know, just kind of everyone's on in the same pool, I guess. So it's really nice to see.

Yeah, there's no, um, I think there's no stigma as well, like there's no, there's no attitude behind building you know, in this group, this APP group especially, we're all just want the best for everyone, you know. There's no like, I'm keeping these secrets to myself. Like everyone's pretty open about like wanting the industry to be better and get better things out of it.

Yeah, that's cool. Well, thanks for the plug. Helena, you'll be talking at this year's summit in June. So very excited for that as well. For anyone that doesn't have a ticket yet, I think there's still a few available. Very close to capacity though. So better get in quick. Cool. Well, I think that might be a wrap. Chris, Helena, thanks so much for coming on the show today. I've really enjoyed hearing more about Chris, your journey and how you've been working with Arrow. And there'll be, there's a ton of value in there for the listeners in terms of how they can get set up with their marketing, but also just generally how to run a great business and have a good growth mindset. So yeah, appreciate you coming on. For anyone that wants to check out a bit more about Arrow Agency, they are an APB Rewards partner. So if you're a member, jump on the rewards directory. Otherwise, go to thearrowagency.com.au and see their website. If you want to learn more about Chris and Tenfold Homes, tenfoldhomes.com.au, and you'll see his face right on the About Us page there. So check it out. Yeah, but thanks, guys. Thanks for coming on.