How to Rank Products on ChatGPT Shopping w/ Jeff Oxford

Okay. Unless you've been living under a rock, you probably have found out that Chat GPT now has a shopping feature to it. So when I saw this, I was like, cool, right? Me being a Google Ads guy, you would probably think I wouldn't think that because this is now competition to Google Ads. I, I'm not a fan of Google, to be honest. Even though I make my living from there. I, I want more competition for Google because I think they just fleece small businesses today. And so they haven't really innovated much in my opinion, other than products that make them more money, not necessarily small businesses and advertisers. So I like, I'm, I'm looking at this like, how can I get my clients who are E commerce, how can I help them? Now as Chat GPT continues to innovate and add additional features like the ability of having index shopping, not ads. These aren't ads, but these are products. Products that you're getting here. So I decided to hit up my good friend Jeff Oxford who owns 180 Marketing. He is the probably best SEO guru that I've met and I've met a lot of SEO guys in the space. He specializes with large e commerce businesses. He has worked with some of my clients and has done tremendous work. And so I'm like, hey Jeff, do you know anything about this? And he's like, I know a lot about it already. So I figured, hey, let's get Jeff on. Let's, let's have a chat about it. So Jeff, I guess, quick intro if you want and then we'll just dive right in.

Yeah. So I'm Jeff. I'm an SEO nerd. I've been doing SEO for the last 15 years. I first had my own drop shipping sites, realized that, saw the writing on the wall with drop shipping and everyone white labeling and going to China. So I decided just to focus on the part of it I love, which is SEO. I sold off my drop shipping sites and I've been doing SEO consulting for the last 12 years.

Okay, cool. And yeah, I mean you've worked with, I mean you do some. Actually Jeff did our SEO for our agency and we are ranked on the first page of Google Ads Agency. So he did his job well there too. But you know, you do for the most part it's just big e commerce businesses that you're working with, right?

Pretty much we're just doing E commerce.

Okay. So you know this move with Chad gbt. First off, I'm not an SEO expert, so I'm going to speak out of terms a little bit. But when I've had clients ask about certain things with chat GPT and I'm like, hey, you know, we've had, we actually have people that come in through our funnel and we're like, you know, we always ask where you heard about us and we're getting to chat GBT or like AI answers now. And it's like, so people are asking like, we're just ranked on there because they've scraped, you know, obviously all the indexed review sites and probably even Google themselves. Right. In regards to who Google's ranking. So I think that's probably how they, they've categorized us on their answers. If you like, who's the best Google Ads agency? We're not. We don't show all the time. But it does to me look like it's like, oh, I see what they're doing. They're just kind of taking the review websites and then like, you know, categorizing agencies from there. To me though, it's like, oh, proper good. SEO that Jeff's team did for us is now getting us ranked on, you know, the, the chat GPTs and Geminis and Clauds and without really any further efforts on our end because we've already done really good, you know, SEO foundation work. So I guess is that true from what you're seeing and then how with this new shopping feature, what are you guys seeing there? And then what sort of recommendations would you have for e commerce businesses?

Yeah, so we'll break into two parts, just like general exposure and chat GPT and then we'll talk about the new shopping thing. Now I'll be the first to say this is evolving very quickly. We, we've yet to seen like solid case studies on like, hey, I did this, now I appear here. But we know enough about how these large language work on how to influence them. So part of the reason that you had more traction on ChatGPT is you've invested a lot in content over the years. You have so much content on your website, I'm sure in your content you're probably subtly mentioning your brand or have a call to action where it makes sense. But also, Austin, we worked together, we did a lot of link building. So we were literally going on all these business sites and marketing sites and advertising sites, doing a guest post and maybe mentioning grow my ads, doing all these different types of things to get your name out there. So in the world of SEO, it's all about backlinks and the world of large language models. Like ChatGPT is all about mentions. So there's kind of two ways you can influence. One is on your website, like doing content marketing, creating good content that's going to help, but also getting mentioned on other sites. So similar to link building, but a little different. We care less about the backlink and more about just the content and the mention.

So when you say mention, it could just be like someone says, grow my ads on their website. Like mentioning, like mentioning us in a post or whatever. It may be not necessarily the linking to our website.

It could just be our name that they're using when. When. So basically the way it works is Chat, GPT and all these other large language models. They take an index, the web and the index, they come, it's publicly available. It's called Common Crawl. You can go to common crawl.org and see this big free index that all these places are pulling from. And yeah, it's fascinating. People don't know this, but like, you know, creating an index, the web is a lot of work. Like ChatGPT, maybe someday they'll make their own. But they're more focused on kind of the tech behind it and the large language model and the AI. They're less concerned about being a web crawl and an index. So you can go to Common Crawl, you can actually query it to see which of your pages have been indexed in Common Crawl. So if you are searching your brand, you're anywhere in Common Crawl, something's wrong. You got to get SEO best practice in place. So you can get picked up by Common Crawl and get in the same index that all these places are pulling from. So that's one part is just having good content and then again, having mentions on the sites, whether they're linked to you or not, doesn't really impact large language models at all. It's more focused on just the phrases and words and the mentions. Is it Reddit or on blogs or wherever else it might be?

Okay, which makes. Yeah, I guess that does make sense. So like the guest posting thing that a lot of, you know, websites have done throughout probably the last decade, not as important when it comes to LLMs. It's more like, hey, you know, you don't even actually get the, the, the link. It could just be people who are talking about your brand.

Unless your guest post is mentioning your brand, then it's going to be viable.

Okay, that makes sense.

Yeah, so there's two parts of it. So that was when large language models first came out. So they have all this training data, they take the entire next of the web and basically trying to see what word comes next to do the ChatGPT and these AI prompts. But we've seen it augment that with search. So, like now in Chat GPT, there's that little, little search button and you can click search and it's going to pull real results. So ChatGPT is partnered with Bing. And I never thought I'd say this, but Bing SEO is actually a thing again. You know, Bing SEO kind of fell off the face of the earth. But, you know, Bing has to pull. When you're doing search, it has to pull from somewhere. So if you can almost guarantee it's using a lot of the same ranking signals that Bing's using to pull content at a chatgpt. So when it augments your search with fresh data pulling web pages, if you're better positioned in Bing search, chances are you're going to be better positioned when ChatGPT is searching for relevant information.

I wonder how I'm doing on Bing search. I don't know. I've never actually checked.

So, yeah, so that, I mean, that's kind of fundamentally how it works is like one, create content to get picked up by these large language models that talk about your products or your brand, get exposure on other places. You can do that with pr, product reviews, pitch your products to roundups, guest posts, just anything you can do to get mentioned on other websites. And then also, I guess the third piece is a lot of this new shopping feature that we're seeing integrated with ChatGPT. It seems to rely heavily on search, so you need to be positioned well. And if you're doing just general SEO for Google, chances are you're also going to rank very well for Bing because the algorithms are very similar. So if you're doing just traditional SEO, that can help your exposure and get you mentioned into this kind of new shopping thing if you want. Awesome. We can do like a quick demo, like.

Yeah, yeah, let's do it.

Yeah, you can, you can either have a client example, you can make one up. But, you know, tell me, just think of like a product, it could be like grills, it could be fireplaces. Just any type of product that comes to mind. And I'll share my screen for this.

Well, let's do. You know, you're aware of home reserve, right? I talk a lot about that company in my videos. So let's do home reserve, which is modular sectional sofas.

What is the best modular. I'll see. We'll get sectional in there. So one thing I've Noticed it doesn't always show up when you do this. Sometimes you have to click search. But let's just do without it first, see what happens.

So this. You did not hit search. You just did a regular.

Yeah, did not hit search yet.

And you're using 4.0model, so. Okay. Which 4O is like the sort of $20 per month model or.

Yeah. Okay. All right, let's. We'll try it again. I got an error which I almost never get, so we'll see what happens.

Yeah, I don't know what that was. Yeah, error and message stream. Interesting.

One more time. Let's go back.

Chad, GPTs. Come on. What do you guys. You guys are failing on.

Not.

Not the best product demo here.

I've never seen these new features.

Interesting.

Well, it does not want to cooperate right now for some reason. I wonder if we go to an existing one. Let's just do best indoor fireplaces. This is what we're talking about. This is the new feature. We never had this before. Now it's actually going to recommend products and I can click on. Did it work? Now here we give it one more second. There we go.

There we go. Of course they put lovesac up there.

Yep. And just since this is a little slow, we'll go back while this is loading just to keep things going. So this is. I will say for the. For the past year or so, I thought AI optimization was overblown the way I just. Because ChatGPT doesn't give you any insights into like the prompts people are using. I mean, imagine trying to do SEO without knowing the search volume for keywords. Or awesome. Like, imagine trying to do search marketing without knowing the search volume for the keywords you're going after. It becomes really difficult to gauge. And all the more, you know. Yes, there are times when ChatGPT will link to you, but if it's just mentioning you, you can't track it. So as marketers, there is such little data that AI optimization really wasn't worth doing. But this is the first time I actually saw it being worthwhile. Where now we're seeing. And these are, you know, these are terms that have decent conversion rates. You know, if someone's searching what's the best indoor electric fireplace? They're probably looking. They're probably looking to buy something soon. They just need to figure out which one. So the intent is there, the conversion rates there. It gives you links directly to some of these things. So like I can see it. I. It has a referral. So it's going to tell you where.

It came from, where that's cool. Where is it? Okay, so Chat GPT just indexed Modern Blaze.com, one of their Touchstone products. Okay, yeah. Where, where is it Pulling that information like how did Modern Blaze now. Modern Blaze is like blessed with this traffic right now. That's free. They didn't pay for that click. And yeah, they've embedded a buy button now. I think Chat GPT in the future, by the way, will move to an advertising model of some sort. I think they just absolutely will have to to monetize what they're doing. I mean like they don't make money as a company. So I do believe this will turn into that. Talking about keywords is interesting. I don't know if there will be keywords. I think they may go full intent based right out of the gate. That's potential. Now we're talking more right now. How do you just get. How do you have a better opportunity of getting index like Modern Blaze did? We're not talking about, you know, what the future holds in regards to advertising. So who knows what that will look like. But so Modern Blaze. Yeah, I mean, what did they do differently than maybe another fireplace website that.

I will say we've been working with Modern Blaze for about nine months now.

So this is one of your clients.

Of course for them, which helps them a lot. But so step one is how do you even become eligible to show up in this? If you're on OpenAI has a partnership with Shopify. So if you're on Shopify, you are automatically eligible. It has all your product data. You don't have to do anything else. This is kind of getting the theory side, but Bing has their equivalent to Google Merchant Center. They have Bing Merchant Center. You can submit your feed to bing.

So which 90% by the way, will just import from Google Merchant Center.

Yeah, it's just, you know, you have the feed, it's just not that much extra work to get it to Bing. Yes. So if you have a feed with. And this is, I guess I'm just kind of suspecting that Bing's most likely using the feed data they have from being Merchant center to Power Chat GBT due to that Microsoft partnership. I haven't, I've looked, I haven't seen any conversations about it. But they, I mean out of the gates they're able to pull like a lot of different vendors into this. So I would imagine that this is most likely coming from. From Bing, you know, that's it. Okay.

I didn't know they're doing basically Like a buy box here.

Yeah. So. And this will take you directly to the page. I've seen some, there's some, some rumors that eventually this will take you directly to the checkout page. So it's even going to skip the product. But for now you have these calls to actions where you can buy directly from these manufacturers.

Interesting. Okay, so that would. Your feed. So by the way, we don't. None of us know 100%. I don't. They haven't publicly stated that do this right. Like they, they do have. They have like this help page I think in regards to Help J. Chat GPT discover your products. So there is this page I, I can link to that in the description below. It's very brief. They do have. I believe you're talking about this page right here. Yeah, they do have a form like you can submit a form. We're exploring any ways merchants to provide product feeds directly. So this is something that I am interested in exploring. I have not, I don't believe I've personally filled this out yet for a client and so I'll have to ask my team if we've done this yet. I, I don't. So I don't know what this process even looks like. But they have, they do have a form now like a way of directly trying to start linking to them. But you're probably right, you know, with the, the partnership with Microsoft that my. It makes sense that they're pulling this data but. But they're off.

They're off.

They're obviously pulling the data from the Internet as well open. And the open Internet. So. But this, this is a key thing and this is something, you know, I did an entire YouTube training video on shopping feeds in regards to like how to optimize your feed for better ad performance. Well, guess what, if you have and if you just follow that video and I'll make sure that video is in the description below that then if, if your feed quality is optimized, G10s, manufactured part numbers, high quality titles, pictures, yada yada, that will hopefully then is translating into what something like Chat GBT is going to be pulling. Because it, to me it looks like they indexed that exact product. Obviously Modern Blaze does not manufacture that. They are a reseller of this Touchstone fireplace. But. So they're not the only retailer that sells this. But Chat GPT knows Touch Tone, Touchstone's probably gtin number. They probably know all the product ID information on it. They're aggregating reviews on it somehow and then now they've Got all the different retailers there as well. So you must have, if you are a reseller and you're not like, you know, the manufacturer of this, going direct to consumer or something, you, you must have then a absolutely optimized feed. It looks like in order to have a better shot as well of being indexed by ChatGPT here.

Yeah, and again, this is, it's new, it's only been out a week. But I've looked into it. I'll kind of share some initial findings that I have. So one thing that's very important, if you scroll to the bottom, you're going to have the sources right here. It's going to tell you where it got all this information from. So what appears to be happening, it almost seems like a two step process. For first, ChatGPT is looking, you know, it's pulling all this information most likely from Bing's index and then it's looking to see which products to select. So I feel like a phase one thing is which products are the best and then phase two is what are the best merchants that sell these products. So for the first question of what products to even include, if I scroll down here, you'll see things like, you know, six best fireplaces on air Wisely, the Spruce six, Six best electric fireplaces. We got a product review on Southern Living, we got Better Homes doing four. So like it's pulling all these product roundups. So what I'm seeing is it's taking all this content, they're taking all these articles and it's going to pull through. It's also going to aggregate reviews. So for example, if I click on any of these, it can see right here it's got 2,300 reviews, but it's pulling that from all these websites, it's pulling it from Wayfair, it's pulling it from.

So wait, the review Number of 2300 is like a total of all of the review sources they're pulling from.

It's, it's looking that way because you can, it'll show you the sources for each. So that's Wayfair, it's pulling from Amazon, it's pulling from electric fireplaces, ebay. I mean there's like nine different product pages here where it's aggregating all those reviews together. So what I think is happening is first it's probably as a data point looking at those best fireplace articles that we saw. It's probably cross referencing that with the reviews that it's seeing across all these different platforms. And then it came up with like okay, here's the best, here's the second best. This is best for modern space. This is best for value. It comes up with its final ones and then the next step is deciding which are the best sellers and e commerce sites to buy this on. So you know usually they'll have like three to 10. This is actually the most I've seen where we can see everyone that lists this. So to even be eligible here you most likely have to either A be on Shopify or B have a shopping fee with Bing Merchant Center. And then as far as the rankings go that's kind of going to require a little more investigation. But just as far as like police preliminary research goes, this is how it appears to be working.

Interesting. Yeah, I'm so it's so this example is interesting because it's, it's you know, this is someone, you know, you know the messy middle. All right, the, the Google visual of like you know, how a customer buys. So they go from not, not aware of their problem to having a problem to going through the research phase of like exploring and looking at different products, asking questions like this to eventually typing in touchstone sideline 60 inch, you know and so you, that's like that absolute high intent product specific search. Like I did, you know not to take my shoes off here but look at that beautiful white shoe. That's a Nike running shoe. I forget the actual, I forget the exact name. It's a fly knit something. But anyways I knew what I wanted. I searched that in Google and actually normally I'm not one to click ads because I live and breathe it. So I know you know the cost involved and whatnot. There was a company called Shaley's. I've never heard of Shaley's. It's like a sporting retailer is spread throughout parts of the Midwest. I'm in the Midwest but there is no Shales where I'm at. Never heard of them. They actually were running a sale. So like Nike had my shoe but Nike was selling it at 160. Foot Locker was selling at 160. Everyone seemed to be at that 160 range. Shaylee's was 120. And so I'm like okay, hopefully they have my size. I checked them out. I literally clicked the shopping ad. Check them out. I ended up giving them my business because they had the best price and they had my size and fast shipping the whole, you know. So it was a good experience overall. It's funny though, I wonder because I already knew what I wanted, right. So I'M just like trying to find basically the best price at that point. And I'm, I'm know typing in the exact product that I want. It'll be interesting to see how buyer behavior and, and people ask about this. They're like, oh my God, is Google doomed then overnight? No, Google's like one of the largest companies in the world. Okay. They have all the money in the world. You, they have the smartest human beings working on this too. So, you know, as Jeff and I are sitting here like trying to just figure out how to ChatGPT has indexed this stuff. I'm sure Google already knows, right? So this is. No one's won the race yet, right? And like, I mean I listen to a podcast in the VC world, you know, where the money's going into the AI. They don't even know, okay? We could all be wrong. And chat GPT blows up and actually 10 years from now it's a completely different company. Like Google wasn't the first search engine, right. So who knows? I do think Chad GBT seems to be winning the race if you ask me. Like, it's becoming a bit of a household name in regards to LLM usage. But I, I do wonder, like, the buyer behavior is going to take time to change and adapt. Like we all live in a tech bubble. Anyone who's even listening to this, you're in a bubble, okay, go on the street. I'm in a downtown area here, Fort Wayne, Indiana. If I could walk on the street right now and poll 10 or 20 people and say, how often do you use chat GPT or an LLM? And they'd be like, huh, you know, like it's. So it's going to take some time to adapt, but I do, it'll be interesting. That specific product, individual search, that's not in the research phase, that's in that commercial high intent buying phase. I wonder how much of that will move to a chat GBT or you know, how much Google will still kind of control of that for at least the next five to 10 years.

Well, it was interesting is like I feel like this is, this compresses the customer journey a bit because like you said before, someone's in the research stage. Maybe I want to get an indoor fireplace for my house or apartment. I search this and you know, before I'd search this into Google, right? My research, I find all these products. Then I'm going to go now I'm going to start doing my product searches and that's going to take me to e commerce sites. ChatGPT kind of almost eliminated that step. It can kind of combine the two together. Where I did my research, I now have some options in front of me and I can just purchase directly without having to do any other searches. So it's almost like compressing the customer journey and making it much easier to find the product you want.

It's interesting. I guess it will also be how good they are. Obviously they're indexing based off of a lot of things you've talked about, reviews, mentions and articles, which some of those articles always like because you know, those are like affiliate guys that are just.

Like, oh yeah, it's all, it's all.

Pay to play, right? So it's like, are these act. So what I'm saying is if I ask Chat GPT right now, hey, what's the best golf driver for someone who has a slice or needs, you know, some forgiveness to their. I just got into golf last year, hence I wear this golf hat all the time. But I'm still terrible. But I don't know if I trust Chat gbt. Yeah, like I don't, I don't know if I trust chat GPT's recommendations, right? Like they may index some of the top mentioned drivers and things, but I'm not, I'm not like fully in like, oh, Chad, GPT knows all this is the. No, like I'm actually, I'm going to continue to do my research. I'm looking at Reddit, I'm looking at YouTube. Like I'm looking at, I don't, I don't play around with TikTok much but like if I was on TikTok, I'm sure I'd be looking at TikTok videos, things like that. Right. So I'm going to the multiple sources. I like many people who buy, I like to go to the consumer. Like people who literally are buying this stuff and then talking about it. That's who I like going to. I use Reddit a lot and I know Reddit I think sold their data to Google, I'm pretty sure.

Yeah, I think, I think Chat GPT also has access to it.

Do they? I know they. It was a massive deal and I.

Just did another search. What's the best golf driver for beginners? And, but like it's interesting, Austin, a lot of those data points you mentioned they're using in the research. So like once it looks like it's about finished, I'm going to click on the sources. So you'll see, you know, blogs, we got you. It looked, it pulled data from YouTube videos.

I don't see. Oh, they did do a Reddit.

It pulled from Reddit. It pulled.

Interesting.

It pulled from. So it's basically like, let me see what they gave.

So 1 through 10, I just want to see. All right, so they want TaylorMade Qi 35, which is a very popular driver. A Cobra. That's interesting. The new Callaway Elite, which is interesting. So they, I mean they've got some pretty popular ones on here. Not the one I bought. I bought the AI Smoke, which is a year old model from that Elite.

So well, here's, here's what you might find interesting though for each of these products. So there's even more data that'll have. So yeah, you has your purchase. It shows you all the reviews that it has across, across all those websites, but then it kind of summarizes all the research it found. So it's like, here's why you might like it. And it cites its sources to where it's getting this from, what people are saying from it. So you get little excerpts from all these different sources of why they like it. So you have all this data at your fingertips.

Yeah, it's just tough because it's still so not, it just still feels too commercial, like not authentic because like this driver is praised for its sophisticated blend of technology design offering a solid yet forgiving feel that, that's not terrible. Testers appreciate the 34. Wait, that's not bad either. Some of the, some of them when I've done messed around with like some of the descriptions that I was giving like summer, the summaries were just like, it was too like big worded. Like, okay, I, I want to hear like the idiot on Reddit talk about it.

Yeah.

You know, or like the guy in his backyard swinging a golf club telling me about why he likes it. And I know they indexed it, but the way it gets presented sometimes still is too robot.

I know what you're talking about. Like I, when I purchase, when I want to purchase something, I almost exclusively look at what people are saying on Reddit. If I see like, you know, those top five best, you know, golf drivers for beginner posts. Yeah, I don't trust it because I either know it's cash incentive or B, like most cases, I doubt they've ever even tested it.

Well, true.

Yes. Yeah, I trust Reddit more. So yeah, I think I wouldn't be surprised if you start to see at least it provide a better experience if it started putting more weight on actual user feedback. But then that opens the door for A lot of Reddit manipulation and bots, and that could cause its own issues in the future.

I, it's probably, it's definitely already happening, I think, on Reddit, but it is still. I do. It's weird. Like, I, and I think a lot of people would, would say this too, who are Reddit. Like, they'll, I, I, I am not an active Redditor. I don't, like, go on Reddit and actually post stuff. I'm a lurker. Like, I'll go on there and, and look at what people are saying about stuff. But it's funny because, like, Google has turned into basically a Reddit search engine a lot of times for me where I'm like, I, when I'm in the research phase, I'm like, asking, what's the best golf driver for a beginner? Reddit.

Yeah.

And I'm on Google search doing that. And so obviously Google is aware of that. I'm sure that's part of the reason why they decided to do a deal with Reddit in regards to that. Hey, and this is like, this is, this is a good point too. I make my living from Google. I think they're bastards, though. And they were at one point in my career when I first started, almost 10, I think, probably 10 years ago now, they were actually really cool. And like, I was out in California. I've been to, like, Ann Arbor. They were, like, really cool and very cooperative and, like, they were all about sort of like, providing good trainings and helping advertisers and things like that. And then it got like there was a pivot and it turned into sales mode. Like, your reps were there to sell you or get you to increase your spend. And, you know, and listen, I don't, I have trouble enough, you know, managing an agency. I don't know what it'd be like to try to manage Google. Right? Like, and how, how do you have customer support for all those advertisers and everything else, right beyond me. So they've obviously done a really good job about with it regarding their, you know, revenue increases for the last decade. But I think they, they've gone down the path, which every big corporation eventually does, is like, you know, it's like, my girlfriend loves aloe clothing now. It's like a Lululemon competitor. And then she got this new sweatshirt and she's like, oh, no. She's like, feel the quality. It's gone down. I'm like, yep, they're gonna go like, lululemon did it. Everyone does it. You get popular, you get big. And then, you know, the big fat guys at the top are like, let's squeeze margin. How do we cheapen our product now? And so Google for the last five years minimum has turned into a shit show of a search engine, if you ask me. Now it mints money for lots of my clients and I still make lots of money from it too. Right. People in, in you have actually, you had a slide of Google's revenue from ad revenue. They're still killing it.

Right.

People still use Google and that's not going to change for a while. But Google as a search engine, the quality has gone down tremendously, maybe in part to guys like Jeff Oxford who have SEO'd all their clients to the top. Maybe that's part of it, I don't know. But like, you can tell Google's favored a lot of like, just big publications on a. Lots of, like, there's no, like, I'm sure you've told people there's no way you're ever going to rank for that because, like, you know, is it Huffington Post and you know, things like that, they're just going to dominate. So you see that the quality has turned to crap and then they like, just stuff it with ads now. And, and I'm in the ad world and even I'm like, this is kind of like turned into a bad experience for, for the user for sure. And so I am, I'm just, I am happy to see a lot of people are like, aren't you scared for your livelihood? No, I'm, I'm excited to see innovation and ads will never go away. Smart guys like Jeff aren't going to need to go like, you're going to need experts to help you with all of this. Right? And so if, if people move to other channels, there will still need to be experts there to help businesses with those channels because it's it. Acquisition of new customers does not go away. Otherwise businesses die. Right. So, you know, for the ad side, I think Chat GBT will, will integrate an, an ad model at some point. What that will look like, who knows. But there will probably be people that need help in regards to doing that for you right now. I'm sure your. We're one week into this, we're talking about this super early, and you and I could be both totally wrong and I should delete them this entire episode here. But you are probably having these conversations with your clients right now. You're ahead of the curve and you're like, actually, all of the great SEO work that We've been doing for just natural Google Organic listings is helping us.

Now with LLMs that that's what we're seeing. So it's like you know, whatever you do for SEO, a byproduct of that's going to help your presence in ChatGPT. And all these perplexity and all these large language models, especially ChatGPT with its integration with Bing, you know if you're doing good in Google, you're going to do good in Bing. If you're doing good in Bing, that's going to help you in ChatGPT. And for the longest time I thought AI optimization was mostly hype. And Austin, we were talking about this earlier but like imagine trying to do SEO or Google Ads without ever knowing the search volume of your keywords. ChatGPT doesn't tell us any data on what prompts people are using. So you're flying blind. Right. But also there's no data on people mentioning you in Chat GPT. So like you, you imagine trying to get calculate your ROI without having any referral traffic or data. So as marketers there wasn't really much we could do with AI optimization. This is the first time like last week this one implementation. There's now a clear path to revenue with AI optimization. If you can get your products listed here with all the users that ChatGPT has, this can drive direct revenue. And these are for high intent keywords. Again, it's shortening the customer journey. There's a chance that people might be purchasing directly from Chat GPT. Especially with all the rumors of it going straight to checkout. I mean we're, we're getting pretty close and I can totally see this as a. Especially as Chat GPT market share increases having a positive impact on, on revenue and roi.

Yeah, I guess so. My. And sorry if you did answer this already but like Modern Blaze is a reseller so. But, but how did like why do you think Modern Blaze was giving the given the top real estate there amongst Amazon and Touchstone themselves in the buy box.

I'm doing some research now to figure that out. I don't have a concrete answer yet. There does seem to be some correlation. Like if I click on the sources here they were mentioned like right here their product page actually showed up when it was pulled from this Bing integration from Bing's index. I'm going to scroll down, see if it's also here. Yeah, so I think, I mean this is my guess right here. I think when it was pulling products for it, there's something about Modern Blaze it could just be that it ranks better in Bing, it could be that it's better performs better in Bing shopping. But I believe it's this source right here that got pulled in.

And what's that? So what is that source again?

Sorry, it's like a product page.

Oh, that's it.

Yeah. So when. So like again my theory on this just from limited research I've done so far, it seems like it's a two step process. It pulls all this data, it looks at these, you know, best, these kind of product roundups, these best fireplaces articles. It then decides what are the best fireplaces. And it could be as simple as just pulling products for each one. And maybe it's because Modern Blaze ranks well that it happened to get pulled in first or maybe it's because it has good reviews or maybe it performs well and Bing shopping. That part I'm trying to do some more analysis on. But there is a correlation where if you can get pulled as a citation, you're also going to be have better presence in the results.

Okay, so to summarize on this high quality feed, and I mean you, you do you ha. Like that's the thing. I have advertisers that don't run on Bing or Microsoft ads. I always still say Bing. But you know, is it worth then creating an account and a feed just for the purpose of this?

Okay. Even if you don't spend a penny.

At least get that have the have an account with your feed data in there.

And again if you're on Shopify, it already has the data so it's not necessary. But if you're not on Shopify, definitely submit a feed to Bing.

Interesting. So Shopify. Another win for Shopify. By the way, anyone who's not on Shopify today, I'm always like why aren't you on Shopify? Yeah. So okay, so if you're on Shopify folks you don't have to worry if you're not probably have to submit create a being account, don't spend any money.

Where was it that or put a dollar a day in there form submission they had where you can get notified.

That will be in I again I haven't gone down the that I don't exactly know what that that looks like yet. And so we will start that process for sure for some clients. So just, just you know I. This reminds you know when Google shopping ads first came out it was free.

Yeah.

And so if you were like one of the first adapters you got, you got free money from Google essentially. And So I, I see this as that play if you can get sort of index like that here early on. So we're obviously on top of. That has nothing to do with ads. But that's. I know, I'm. Hey, we're an ad. Yes, we're an ad agency. No, I'm a growth partner to my clients. I'm always like, how can I help you grow or hit your goals? Sometimes it's optimizing for margin. So because like, hey, we're too fat. Yep, you are. Here's. Here's where we can trim fat. So we're just here to help our clients. So we're growth partners in that manner. Even though the bread and butter of that is coming from managing their ads. But I'm all over this stuff with them. So. So, okay, form, fill, feed or Shopify. On Shopify. And. And then really like Modern Spaces kind of just got lucky or not like. So I would assume they rank pret than maybe on Google for this exact search of or for the exact product.

They're definitely performing better in Google. You know, we don't really, in the SEO world, we don't really look at Bing ranking. So I'd have to manually check to see how they're doing it in Bing. But on Google they're doing good. But honestly, if you're, if you look at the search results between Bing and Google, it's pretty similar. Their algorithms are very similar. So if you're doing good in Google, chances are you're doing good on Bing.

Don't think that product page. Sorry, go ahead.

Yeah, don't think you have to do Google SEO and then you have to do Bing SEO. You just do SEO and that's going to help both.

Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. That product page though, from Modern Blaze, that's got to be ranked quite high. Like, it's just interesting that Modern Blaze got favoritism over the manufacturer itself over Amazon. And so that's first off. I like seeing that. So it's not like ChatGPT's playing favoritism to the Amazons.

Right.

Or Walmarts. So I do like seeing that they just, they literally rank the best real estate you can get to an actual small retailer. Not Amazon. And. But I how that product page that they rank that something happened there, they pulled that from somewhere. And, and obviously that's probably some of the work you've helped with this client. But like, I'm assuming they rank well for Touchstone, you know, product searches.

Yeah. And there is some correlation that performing better in Bing is also going to help your performance in ChatGPT. I'm trying to get more data to have a more tangible kind of study and take a scientific approach to this. But it's pulling, you know, we see it pulling reviews from all these places. We see it for this particular product, all the different places that were cited, Reddit. So it's, it's just pulling massive data. Most of which is probably coming from just the Bing search. And yeah, like anecdotally what we're seeing so far is if you're performing better in Bing search, you have a better shot of getting selected as one of these sellers.

Okay, anything else on that?

I think that about covers it. Yes. Like we have a rough idea of how it's likely working now we just got to kind of do a little more deep dive and to see, you know, how exactly is it deciding which of these products display and then once the product selected, how exactly is it, is it determining these? So I'm sure in the coming weeks and months we'll have more data, but at least for being out for a week, we do have some preliminary research on how this is likely functioning.

All right, there you guys go. Jeff, thanks for chatting with me about this. You know, I didn't know, I didn't know any of this yet. So other than reading and doing a couple quick search myself at looking at how products is products were being indexed. So I appreciate your insights. We'll have to have, you know, as you learn more, I'll have to have you back on and share more as you start to learn more as well. So listen, if you're an e commerce business and you need help with some of this stuff and the SEO of your site, again, I've worked with Jeff for many years. He's the absolute best in the industry. This is coming from a guy who spent years trying to find the best for my own clients because we don't do a lot of or really any SEO for, for our clients. So I needed to find a, the, the absolute gun in the industry, especially for big e commerce businesses. And Jeff was that guy. And trust me, I tested many, many people. Tremendous success with several of our clients. The guy speaks at, you know, conferences and he reads the nerdiest stuff you could think of when it comes to this stuff. So I know if there's like something like this, I'm like, I gotta go talk to Jeff, see what Jeff's saying. So if you're an e commerce business, reach out to him. I will have his information in the description below. Jeff, any last words?

Austin, thanks for having me. This was a blast. Let's do it again sometime.

Yeah, we're going to do it again for sure. I just, you know, it's fun always talking to you anyway, so. So we'll absolutely have to do it again. Okay, folks, there you go. We're one, one week into sort of this announcement. Hopefully you got a lot of value from this and now you know what to do. I know I'm going to be sharing some of this with our clients and working on this now filling out that form that chat GPT has. Let's see what like feed information that we can submit and see what that's gonna do for some of our our clients. So still a bit unknown, but I think if you watch this video, you're probably ahead of the curve already of people. So based off what Jeff has just shared. So again, I hope everyone gets great value. I'll see everyone on the next video. And Jeff, until next time, thanks.

Thanks, Austin.