The EXACT Email Framework Top eCommerce Brands Are Using in 2025 (w/ Gavin Hewitson)

Cool. All right, we're live. Okay guys, I have Gavin here. I don't, I just met Gavin but he's a wizard. So I was like, hey, I gotta, I gotta talk to you. We gotta do a YouTube video. So Gavin owns an agency, email marketing, really specializes in helping e commerce companies. He's worked with like lots of incredible, very successful e commerce businesses with their email marketing. His company is called Inbox. You are originally, where are you originally from? New Zealand.

Yeah. Okay, so originally born in the States, but when I was seven, moved to Spain, lived in Spain for two years and then from Spain to New Zealand and then I was in New Zealand for 20 odd years and then came over to Mexico, believe it or not. So I'm currently in Mexico, which just allows me to be in between east and west coast time zones for the US So it's just.

Yeah, okay man, you're well traveled, well cultured. I'm just, you know, a hillbilly out of Fort Wayne, Indian. So compared to you, I've done, I've done some traveling thank to Luke. So yeah, Gavin met, you know Luke, Luke's co founder with me of Grow my Ads. And then Luke's like, you got to talk to this guy, he's a wizard on email marketing stuff. So I just really enjoyed our first conversation. So I know you kind of did a quick intro but like tell everyone who you are and then what your company does and we'll get into it.

Yes. So I run Inbox, which is an email and SMS marketing agency. So we just do email and SMS and in a really basic sense we take people from subscriber to customer and then ideally from customer to repeat customer. I've been in the space for a while now, helped businesses pretty much across every single e commerce niche you can think of. All the way from furniture brands to supplement brands, all the way to fruit and vegetable companies, subscription boxes, the whole whole nine yards. And yeah, I mean essentially we, we dial in the sms, the SMS in the, in the email. Typically we're working with businesses over in the US for the most part. But you know, having been from New Zealand and obviously have an American accent, I just never lost it. A lot of our work is also in that Oceania region. So Australia, New Zealand and then we have a few businesses over in the UK as well that kind of leverage our stuff. But yeah, that's us. We decided to pick one thing, do it really, really well, focus just on that and it's been awesome. I mean email is one of the more as far as Marketing goes, I think one of the least understood. Everyone knows we need traffic, we need ads, but a lot of people don't really know what to do after they get that email subscription. How to use email to convey the values of the brand, the actual brand itself, the people behind the brand and using it as a way to you know, cross sell, upsell layer in discounts for people based off their purchasing history. Which I want to talk a little bit about today. But yeah, it's, it's, it's such a powerful tool when, when, when used properly.

Yeah, I'm so, you know, obviously we talk to a lot of e commerce companies here at grow my ads and I'm always fascinated by the one like, well a lot of them and you get into the weeds obviously we're helping on the ad side quite a bit. But then you know, as we get into the back end with them understanding their business, understanding where revenue is being generated currently because we like to go beyond, you know, just looking at in app metrics. Like our big thing especially with e commerce brands is like, you know, you know, what's your inca to ltv and like what are, are you guys doing anything to increase ltv? Are you, are you doing any order bumps throughout the year? Are you, you know, and a lot you get into it and it's like guys, what are you doing on email? And then same with Legion, most of them don't do anything there either. It's like, well we blast out the list and it's like ah, okay you guys are. And then you look at their, their revenue numbers from email and it's like 1% of their total revenue. And so I'm always like challenging them. You've got, there's so much opportunity there because like 1% is like nothing. You know, you should be. I've talked to massive business, massive e commerce companies and they'll, they'll be doing like 20% from email and we're talking millions and millions of dollars from that. So and that's not just sending out promos or deal emails. Like, like they have, you know, they're, they're, they're doing it properly probably how you do it. So my first question to you and what I really wanted to pick your brain on is I know, you know, I know enough to tell people like you should be increasing your email revenue but I don't run email marketing for e commerce businesses day to day like you e commerce businesses today in 2025, what exactly should they be doing? There is lots of information out there and you hear about all these like oh you should have this flow or that flow. Like ultimately let's say I'm an E commerce business today and all I'm doing is sending a mass email out whenever I feel like it. Basically no rhyme or reason to my entire list. What would you do with that e commerce business today? And then like what are you seeing the most success with in 2025 right now with e commerce businesses with the email marketing SMS campaigns that you're driving for them?

Yeah, I think so. The first thing is like you know you mentioned before, right like in app attribution or in app metrics are quite hard to get a gauge on Attributed revenue With email is like one thing, right. But the biggest metrics you really want to focus on are subscriber to conversion rate and the retention rate. So the first one is how many people you can turn in from a subscriber. So typically for an e commerce business it's hey, sign up at checkout, sign up by a discount code, they make an order, they sign up there too. It's how many of those people you can turn from subscriber into first time customer and then after that it's how you can play around with the retention rate. How many people you can move from one to second, third, fourth and fifth purchaser. Right? Yeah. So for those businesses that with email marketing and SMS as well there's like two bodies of work that can typically be tackled. The first one is the automations. So creating flows in Klaviyo, which most e commerce businesses are using is the automation side that's creating sequences based off of actions that customers or subscribers trigger. Now the automations are only going to be talking to your subscribers, right? The other side of the other body of work is the campaigns. So that's essentially emails that you're sending out on a regular basis to your database. Now for the businesses out there that are just blasting their list it's a bit of like a. Just don't do that. First thing you want to do is you want to segment your audience. Most businesses when they get to start playing around with segmentation are going to segment by engagement which is important, right? You want to only be sending emails to people who are regularly engaging with your emails. Right. So typically that's creating like a 90 day engage segment or 180 day, 120 day engage segment.

So would you engage, would you say though like don't send emails then to someone who doesn't seem to be engaged at all, you just take them off the list.

So yeah, the important caveat to this, right, so for your regular emails, you want to be sending to your engaged segment for the less engaged portion of your database and you really want to be trying engaging them with more aggressive sales promotions or let's say for Black Friday, when Black Friday rolls around for a lot of people, you want to expand who you define as engaged. So instead of saying 90 day engaged, expand to 360 or anybody who's placed an order in the last two years. Because if you're going to try and reengage people, you have to give them a very compelling reason to be engaged with the emails. Typically that's a product release, product restock or a sale focused email. Email.

Now here's my question. Is that because the fact that if your open rate is a certain percent like low, then you can be deemed as like a spammy sort of email for sure.

Is that what it is? It is, it's deliverability. Right. And so how deliverability works is every email that. So every email address that's sending emails. So for example, my company Inbox Co nz, my domain has a reputation. The way that reputation is influenced is based on how people are interacting with the emails that I'm sending. So if I'm sending to my only to my like, you know, engaged subset of my audience, my open rates and my click rates are gonna be higher. What that does is it tells people, or rather Gmail Hotmail outlook, people are engaging with my emails, which means they deserve a position in other people's folders. Because how Gmail operates is it takes your reputation based off how people are interacting it and it tells everybody else who has a Gmail account what that reputation is. Right?

Right.

So if I have a Gmail and I micro email as spam and then you also have a Gmail, Gmail is going to look at my interaction with the email and label it the same way for you. Right. So you only want to be saying to the engaged segment to ensure that deliverability goes up. Now you can when your sales come around, expand the definition, get lower engagement rates. But you're leveraging the goodwill essentially that you've built up previously from the engaged emails that you've sent to then go into like the rest of the database. So you don't want to send all the time to that. You want to like imagine it's like cash in the bank. You send emails to engaged segment, you're building up your cash, cash, cash, cash, cash. Then you can spend that reputation a little bit to then reach out to other people that are less engaged.

So. Okay, but how long, all right, how long is that? How long does that take? Let's say you're an established business, you send lots of emails already or you, you've started, let's say in the last year. Hey, I've been sending to an engaged list predominantly. I'm green on all of the, you know, spam checks and can I open this up? Because like I do, you know like I look at like a Lululemon or something. Like we're talking massive company, right?

Sure.

They blast so many emails and I'm, I always wonder, I'm like are, I wonder how sophisticated they truly are. I'm sure they, they do, right? They probably have an entire floor in, in a city somewhere where it's just email people like yourself. But I'm like, I wonder they've got to be just blasting because they have so many emails. Do you, are they really chopping it up to this? Like hey, let's scrub the list like here at Grow my ads because we're very cautious about getting on a blacklist and email is not like super massive for us. We're obviously not an e commerce business but we scrub our list all the time. So like our open rate is over 50% and it's, it's because we've taken you know, 10,000 down to three because we just get rid of anyone who hasn't engaged in X amount of time. But I'm like, when I look at like a Lululemon or like some of these massive retailers to me I'm like man, it really does look like they're just like machine gunning emails out.

Yeah, I mean I would say for some company like that they probably have their own separate infrastructure in the whole back end.

Okay, you're probably right.

Yeah. You know like for these companies that are doing you know, probably hundreds of millions, you know, in a short window of time they can afford to have like these whole separate systems. But like for the most part for businesses they're doing like under $50 million a year in revenue. You know, the strategy really is, you know, for sure clean your list of course. And there's automations like if you just Google sunset flow and in the show notes you're going to have a, I'll have a document for everybody that highlights all the automations that can take somebody from being unengaged to trying to re engage them. And if they don't, they don't re engage you suppress them. I mean listen, it really comes down to like your appetite for like we've just got a, you know, a client on board who has customers from the last seven years. And so we're running a campaign where we're trying to re engage as many of those people as possible. If they don't engage with the campaign that we're sending, which is a sale focused email, we are then going to suppress them. But we're going to try and re engage them first. Right. They don't engage, get rid of them. You're probably not going to want to send them an email anyway because they're not going to open it. That affects your deliverability in the long term. Also it just saves you money on billing. Klaviyo is not necessarily the cheapest platform out there which most of you guys listening to this are probably going to be using. If you're doing E commerce email marketing, lower your billing where you can.

So yeah, is it so sorry, I do have lots of questions like when you're. So when you talked about what to do to re engage people, you're saying do like a sale, is that like, oh like a universal thing you always will test or is it hey, let's say they sell. Let's say they're a golf retailer.

Yeah.

Is it a sale or, or is it like actually let's get them re engaged with valuable content again that we've maybe produced. So instead of trying to sell them, you're just bringing them back into your, you know, world through valuable content. Is that a play as well?

I think we have to look at like what we're defining as engaged. So I would define an engaged reader as somebody who has opened or clicked an email Right now if you think about like what's a compelling reason for someone to open an email and keep in mind like certain concealers out there prevent you from actually getting an accurate read on who's opening your email. Just caveat that. But if you think of like a reason as to. If I'm on a golf list, I'm probably someone who has demonstrated interest in golf. If we're selling physical products here, the most engaging or the most compelling piece of content for me to open, which is what we're defining as engaged right here, is going to be something that helps me save money or has a compelling offer. In my experience, the emails that typically generate the most revenue, it's sale, sale, product release and product restock. Those emails typically get the most revenue. So we can make an inference from that like okay, well if they get the most revenue, they're probably the most engaged emails that we send and you look at it if you send in campaigns regularly, if you have in your subject line. Just a tip here too. Subject lines with numbers at the very start tend to get better engagement rates. There's just pattern break in in the inbox.

Yeah.

If you have an email that goes out to somebody who hasn't opened an email in the last two years and you have two subject lines, one saying golf tips to improve your swing versus 30% off anything in store I'm probably going to more likely engage with the 30% off.

That makes sense.

Yeah. And what that does is that then pulls me into the engaged segment which you can then start running that more life cycle lifestyle educational content. That's another thing a lot of businesses should be doing too is leaning into that lifestyle content to it that really, really, really helps. Just from an overall engagement perspective.

Do you and like do you have and so obviously I asked you a question and I I've been now rabbit holing you down all these other areas with it but like is there a formula there? So like what you're saying right now, hey absolutely. You've got to scrub the list and make sure you're only sending right now to engaged contacts. Right. Which so two questions and they're not really related so so bear with me. One, the companies right now I don't know you know I'm sure you're aware of some of this but like I get emails from companies I'm like never gave them my info. They're using there's somehow there's like using the software tools that will allow you to see who's visiting your website without actually like because they, they have my data from somewhere and they just sell it and now they've compiled it. You've got like lead pipes is big for B2B I think there's like some ghost one out there. Basically you put a piece of code on your website and it will tell you who's visiting your website if they have their data. And my own personal. It's weird I, I visit I I tested it real quick and grow my ads. We don't run it currently so anyone who's visiting our website we're not running this but if you came to my web I came to my own website and it pulled just to test the software. It did have my personal email address and my name and my LinkedIn account and I was like ah that's crazy then but though I have now because I'm in the you know I'm going to millions of websites per day for clients and consultations and audits and things like that, doing research. I get emails from these websites. I'm like, there's, I didn't give them my data so I know they're running this type of software. Is that going to put some of those people on blacklist? Because like, I'm like, how are these guys getting away with that?

Yeah, so you're talking about softwares like retention, opensend. What those softwares do essentially is they have like a database of hundreds of millions of email addresses. They install a pixel on a customer's website. That pixel matches the browser with the database that they have. It's legal in the US It's a little gray. With those softwares you have to be super careful about like the emails that you're sending there. Right. The reason being because yeah, they haven't opted in. And so typically what those softwares will do is they'll have flows specific for people who are in those lists. Right. And there are different series of automations. Right. They are emails designed, they're a little bit more scarce. Typically they're text based emails to try and increase the overall engagement. Because text based emails tend to get better deliverability. Yeah, those can absolutely trash your deliverability if you're not careful with it. Right. Like if you have a list and you only send to the list of people who are solely coming from like retention or OpenSend. Yeah, it's not gonna be the same quality as somebody who is explicitly saying subscribe me for email marketing. So yeah, 100%. I mean that's on the deliverability side. Right? Like deliverability is massive. It's super important with the overall strategy though. One thing I really do want to talk about is you can segment by engaged. That's the first port of call. The second port of call though is segmenting people based off of engagement and purchase history. So priority number one for any E commerce business is getting product into people's hands. Okay. Getting product into people's hands for the first time Customers. Right. With your campaigns and with every single automation, you should be treating people differently based off their purchase history. So if we do a classic example like a welcome series, somebody subscribes to your newsletter 20%, 10% off their first purchase, they should go through a welcome series that reiterates that discount code. Obviously. But here's the thing, a lot of businesses stop right there. They don't reiterate that discount code anywhere else in their messaging. What you should be doing is you should have two segments let's say engage 90 day customers, engage 90 day non customers should have two different campaign strategies for those two different segments. Now you can have the, if you do like lifestyle content on golf, you can send that email to both those segments. But the engaged non customers, the welcome series offer should be in that email. That discount code should be in every single email they get until they purchase. The same with the automations at the very top of every single one of your automation split people based off their purchase history. Non customers on one side, customers on the other side reiterate that offer to get product into hand. Now some of you guys listening are like well you know, I don't want to give discounts all the time. If you're doing it in a pop up you're lying. And then also you're going to make up for any loss in 10%, 20% margin ideally assuming you have a good business and a good product on the repeat order rate down the road. Right. And then also most cases the AOV on the second order is typically higher than the AOV on the first order. So what you're doing is compromising 10% margin to get let's say 10% more subscriber to conversion rate but you're gonna make up for it on the repeat order rate down the road and the increased AOV on that second, third and fourth purchase. Right, right. So just encouraging that messaging across the line. Now for subscription based businesses as well, a really important thing to look at is when do subscribers typically if we have like a. So we've got like you know, supplement brands who are like hey, we have a subscription based product, we see people, if they stay on for three subscription rounds, they drop off, they sorry, the drop off rate is significantly lower. So what can you do to get people onto that third or second or fourth subscription round? And that can be playing around with incentives as well. Right. Also with these incentives, just do percentage off, don't do dollar off, don't do gift with purchase, don't do cash back. The reason we do percentage off is because it increases the AOV the more you spend, the more you save. Gift with purchase can sometimes cut into your repeat order rate, also hike up your shipping costs. And then the points stuff, it's just a little confusing. It's like how many points do I have to finish figure out Here, here, here. Yeah, cash back.

Yeah it makes sense for a coffee shop with like brick and mortar coffee shop but when it gets, if you're.

Coming back regularly of course but like cash back also to me Just always.

Seems kind of like it's a little now. So there's a question in my brain spinning with so many but percent off, is there a specific, like minimum percent they must do?

I would always recommend not going below 10. 20 tends to be that sweet spot.

I agree. So I say that because I did. We did like an analysis. Actually. I have to give a shout out to them because I got most of my research during that time from another agency called Common Thread Collective. I don't personally know those guys, but they're. I respect the content that they provide. It's very high value, very much cfo, like bridging the gap with finance, marketing, which is what I geek out on. But yeah, they did like an analysis. I don't know where they got their data. It could be through their own portfolio. But basically found like this was for Black Friday specifically. So I didn't know if this would apply universally. But like, if you're not at. If you're not at least doing 20 off, don't do it at all. Because, like, we've had clients before Black Friday Cyber Monday's coming and like, well, we don't, you know, they don't like discounting. Fine, I understand that. But like, so, but we'll do like 10 off or 5% off. Like, don't do it. It's not even worth doing it. Like, no one's gonna read that and care. So 20 off in that data was like the minimum, at least for Black Friday. So that's why I was wondering if. If there's a number you've seen on the email side that has nothing to do with, with Black Friday, I.

Well, okay, so the Black Friday offer should typically be better than your opt in offer. 5%. I just like, that's. I'm like, you know, you know. Yeah, it doesn't really do a whole lot. Also, if you're concerned about margin, just add an extra fee fee to your shipping. Very few people actually look at the shipping side of things. So if you're like, I don't want to compromise, you know, an extra 5% to go from 5 to 10 or 15 to 20, just increase your shipping fees a little bit. No one's gonna bat an eyelid on that front.

Really. Okay, that's interesting. I would feel like, because, like, yeah, I always just feel like if you're not giving away, if you don't have the free shipping, then people are going to research competitors who might.

Yeah, for sure. And here's the other thing too. If within the welcome series, this is a really important thing. Roughly 90% of your purchases are going to come within the first three days of somebody opting into your email marketing. Right? So if people are purchasing when they subscribe to email marketing, it's going to be about a three day period. 90% of the purchases that are going to happen are going to happen in that first three day window. Which is why it's so important in the welcome series to actually make it quite intense in those first three days, even five days, to be honest. Like we have pretty much standard operating procedure for us. First email that we send gives them the discount code. Note, if you have a sign up form and you're giving them a discount code, give them the discount code on the signup form. This old school thinking was force them into the email to interact with the email to get the discount code. Which yes, improves your deliverability a little bit, but it also causes the on site conversion rate to drop because you're actually forcing somebody off of your website to get distracted. Open their inbox to then use a discount. It doesn't make any sense. Make sure the discount code's on the signup form. Auto, apply the discount code at checkout. By the way, if you're using Shopify, you can do that. Just URL slash, discount slash, enter the code, boom. Takes you straight to the thing. It auto, applies it in the first three, three days. Just hit the emails as much as you can. We do email one immediately email two 12 hours later reiterating the discount code. Another email 24 hours later. We do not see an increase in spam or unsubscribe rates when we increase the amount of emails that we're sending in that window of time. And if you think about it from a customer perspective, the typical customer journey is this. Goes onto your website, finds a product, subscribes for the discount code, goes on to Amazon, see if they can find it cheaper. You can check out your competitors, see if they can find a cheaper alternative. The brand that's going to win in E commerce for the most part is largely pretty homogenized. Right? Like there's a lot of like for like products out there. The brand that's going to win is the brand that if we're doing two products that are relatively similar, is the brand that reiterates their offer more to the person compared to the other brand. Right? Like if we have two brands side by side and I send them a discount code and I reiterate that discount code four times in that three day buying window and the other brand Similar offer, similar discount, reiterates it once. Who do you think is going to win? Right? Yeah, it's going to be the brand that's reiterating.

Yeah, I'd like so to go back. So you said split between purchasers and non right. On that list the non purchasers are going to get the continued welcome sort of discount. Like first time purchaser discount. Always put that in front of their face. Always for every email they're getting they're like you're just repositioning, hey, you know, first order, first time customers, 30% off, 20, whatever the number is. Right. And but then obviously someone who's already bought from you, they're not seeing that that's not baked into that email now. Correct few things. One, is there a, is there a like formula or is there a certain sort of split between what you like to see companies doing in regards to continue just sending discount emails versus hey, you're hitting them with nothing but discounts and no value. You're never ever like providing just like cool content or value in regards to whatever industry they, they serve. Because like I have worked with companies who were pigeonholed into becoming a discount company. They're like no one buys from us until we run a sale. And it's like because they literally are always running sales and they got addicted to revenue bumps every time they ran the sale. Now they ran the sale to their entire list. So this was a small, just few million dollar company but they got stuck and it was like they felt like we can never stop running sales. And then costs went up and their margin was being squeezed. But they can only get sales when they're running and literally their list was just accustomed to like why would I go on their website and buy this product right now when next week they're going to run some stupid sort of like another promo like you know, Taco Tuesday 20% like they were always doing some stupid stuff and they just got stuck in that. And so is there like when you're working with companies and auditing what they're doing, do you, if they're running no value in regards to the emails and it's just promotional, is the a, is that an issue and if it is an issue, is there sort of like a sort of percent or a formula that you guys operate off like hey, you should for every Discount Email Send 1 value Email or something like our testimonial or whatever it may be?

Yeah, I mean I think people should always be scarce with the sales that they're running for sure. You know when it comes to the lifestyle content, I mean, guys, God, if we're looking at a campaign content calendar of like 10 emails in a given month, which is pretty small, you know, you want at least 6 of those in my opinion to be like lifestyle focused content.

So keep in mind, okay, 60% in that case then is more geared towards not pushing a promo. You're just providing value.

I would even say also that doesn't mean 40% is promo. It means 40% leaves us for promotion, product focus, product release, and then maybe a sale email there as well. Yeah, okay, I'll speak to two things really quickly on that. So number one, lifestyle content. What does that actually look like? People need to lean more into the founder led aspect of their brands. Actually put like a person and people to the business. Like in our post purchase sequences, when somebody places an order, we're sending plain text emails from the team or from a founder saying, hey, thank you so much for your support of our business. I think a lot of people get misconstrued with like what brand means. And really for brands doing under $50 million a year, they need to lean more into the human angle. People care more about the people behind the brand at that smaller company level than they do about the business per se. I think like, you know, the true power of brand is if there's an established secondary market for your product. I buy a Pokemon card, there's a secondary market for that Pokemon card. Most businesses don't really have that. Right. So what does that look like? It looks like. Back to the golf analogy. Five tips from Gavin on how to improve your golf swing. Hi, it's me, Gavin. Photo of me in the email. Five tips. Right. Actually value led emails that then when you have like an engaged audience, you can leverage that engaged audience to then dovetail into the more product sales focused stuff. Yeah, there's interesting, you know, that's the, that's the lifestyle focus things really. I mean that should be just be done. Also, you know, we talked a little about sales. Just like we're talking about splitting people based off of purchasing behavior. So non customers and customers. We did this thing, we do this pretty regularly for Black Friday where we'll actually take an audience. Let's say there's like, you know, 100,000 people in a database. Right. We'll split it by customer, single time customer. Sorry, non, non customer. So subscriber first time customer, second, third and fourth and then just, you know, advocate. Right. We actually give different discounts to those different audiences based off their purchasing behavior and it's actually what we'll do is we'll give our most aggressive discounts to people who haven't purchased a whole lot, and our least aggressive to people who probably don't need it. If someone's bought five times from us, they're not going to need your 50% off coupon. They're probably going to need a 10, 20% off discount. What that allows us to do is take an existing content calendar for Black Friday, and everyone seems to homogenize their Black Friday sales, where it's 50% off for everybody in store, make a lot of revenue, but the profit's thin. So what our strategy does is exact same sale, different discounts for different purchasers. And what that does is allows us to make the same amount of revenue with a better profit margin.

How do you line that up? Because I. I'm on the ad side. So how do you line that up within their ads? Because it gets really difficult when. When the clients are like, well, we've got 20 off for this group and fit. And I'm like, there's no way your 20 off people aren't going to see the 50 off sale. Like, yeah, very hard, especially with lists today and with how ads are being ran and everything else. Very hard to try to hide certain things from certain audiences that are on your list.

So your lowest discount that you're giving has to be the discount that you're giving on the ad side. So if you're running 20% off your ads, that's going to be your lowest discount that you offer. From a Black Friday perspective, the highest discount is going to be the one that people don't see on the ad side of things. So if you're doing a Black Friday sale, 20% off. Cool. Run that. But then for people who've never purchased before, bump that discount up to 30% makes. Right? Yeah. You don't want to, like, cheat people. You know, if you have like a big banner on your store, 50 off, everything cool. Just keep in mind that that banner has to display the offer that the most likely person to buy is going to get. Right. Right. Does that make sense?

Yeah. No, that's exactly what we tell them is like you have to enroll with like one number you're cool with, which is obviously usually going to be the lowest, because then. But it's got to be so 20. Usually we're going to tell them 20% should be like, that's the minimum. So I want to get 50% off to, like, people who have been lapsed for, you know, A year. I don't cool, do that, do what you do there. But you can't, we can't just specifically hide everything. Like if you're trying to like run 50 here, 20 here, 30 here, well then on the ad side you got to stick with a number that you're comfortable with other people seeing. Not sure you would be hiding from someone. Usually it's fine because like the number they would be trying to hide like the 50% off is someone who hasn't usually purchased from them in a long time, at least on that email side of things. So it's not normally a big issue. But like when people are trying to slice and dice certain deals for certain audiences on the advertising side we're always like again think it's very difficult because they're going to see it one way or another. So roll, roll with a number that makes sense. So I know, just be cautious on time because I know you got to hop off here soon. Like what, what I'm hearing from you is like hey, you've got to have a, a list that is clean, right? So if you haven't scrubbed that list, scrub it. And it's got to be engaged people. And, and by that usually you're, you're. I kept hearing 90 days is sort of a list that you're really rolling with. If it comes to big sales like Black Friday, you may expand that that list out to a further timeframe. But 90 engaged is something that you're always hitting. You must have segment your purchasers from non purchasers. Non purchasers should absolutely be seeing the new customer promo code always. For every email they get, they always, you're always putting that in front of their face. It doesn't you, they don't see it once and it stops. But you're still emailing them and then never again do they realize, oh yeah, I Forgot there's a 25% off new customer order and I haven't ordered from this company yet. So you're always putting that back in front of them. Then it sounds like, hey, if you're sending 10 emails a month, lean into lifestyle content, lean into providing value. Don't send just 10 blasted. You know, sales like sales trickle in. But lean into the lifestyle stuff. Then you're doing some product focused stuff. Then you're also doing some sales stuff. But don't like just try to do 100% sales from your emails.

Correct, correct.

Anything, anything else that I missed there. Obviously your, you are segmenting based off of the engagement and so, and then you're Running the flows too. Any sort of flows for like new, new customers or new subscribers trying to get them into customers and then based off of behavior I'm sure it gets even further. Like more complex car banders, things like that.

Right? Yeah, I mean just rule of thumb, treat subscribers and customers differently. That's like the easiest way to like really split this down.

And subscribers must turn into customers. That's the goal. You're trying to up level them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Getting product into hand is key.

Okay. And so you know, pretty easy right to once you think about it. But it's not because most companies don't deploy it. So where can, where can you, where can people find you? Where can E commerce businesses who are watching this and like, wow, I would love to you know, maybe get some help from Gavin and his team. What do you, what's your, what do you offer? Do you like do a free audit or anything for those type of companies and then where can they find you and learn more from you for sure.

So I mean if you just look up Gavin Hewittson on YouTube, I'll be there across LinkedIn, I'm across Twitter, we're doing some stuff on Instagram and TikTok website inbox. This should all be in the, in the show notes as well. And there's some cool resources that I'm going to give away too. So some editable email templates down there, some flow outlines too. So the automations to show you exactly what these automations can look like. Whole bunch of cool stuff there. But yeah, honestly like if you search up Gavin hewittson Email Marketing I'll pop up right over there. Bunch of good content out there and.

Do you offer it? So do you offer any sort of like audits for companies? Like what's the first step if you, if they're interested in having that done?

Yeah, absolutely. So if you want to have a chat, book a call with me. Step one is going to be me figuring out exactly what your business does, where you guys are falling short. We'll jump into your account, put together a little bit of a roadmap for you, show you where things can be improved. And that's no charge of course. And then from there if you do want us to implement it. Awesome, let's chat. At the very least you'll get a bit of an outline in terms of what can be improved and. Yeah, and, and then run it yourself if you wish as well. Excellent.

Okay. Gavin, I appreciate you coming on man and telling us more. I will have all of your contact info, the free resources Gavin mentioned. All of that will be in the description of this video so you'll be able to easily find it. I We've got to talk more by the way. We're going to. So if you're not a part of PPC Copilot, my school group where I, I DO Q&As and ongoing trainings, go check that out the again, it's called PPC Copilot. The just the link to that group will be in the description of this video as well. Gavin and I are going to do further training because I want to also have some email training that he's doing. I want to put that in that group for the ongoing training piece. So go join if you're interested in, in getting further sort of email marketing training that Gavin and I are going to be doing here probably in the next couple weeks. I don't know exactly when it'll be live, but it'll be, will be doing the actual content recording stuff, having this conversation with more practical, easy stuff for our community to go through with them with their own businesses or with their own clients. Maybe that will be in PPC Copilot coming up too. But otherwise I'd love to maybe do this again with you sometime for the YouTube channel as well and dive further into. Because I know I get so many questions on email stuff. I'm like, all right, maybe we can, we can bring Gavin back on then and, and get a little more in the weeds of some of the email stuff versus just here's what you absolutely should be doing right now then going into once you're doing that, these are the next complicated in the weeds, more complex stuff. So Gavin, I appreciate you being on again. I'll have everything that you mentioned resource wise and contact info in the description. Anything else?

That's me. No, thank you for having me.

Yeah, excellent. All right, appreciate it, Gavin.

We'll see you, man. Cool. Catch you. Bye.