Episode 06: Leadership, Cybersecurity, and Success in the 21st Century

Welcome to Life in the Cloud, the official podcast of Tuple Technologies. Join us each week to hear from experts in cloud migration and IT management as we talk about the latest technologies and trends in cloud and other exciting new developments in tech. Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Life in the Cloud. I'm your host, Chris Reddy, and today I'm joined by a friend of mine, Bob Fabien Zinga. Bob has very extensive experience in just about everything in IT. It's like anything you could think of, about 20 years or so of experience in a variety of IT roles and private businesses, a lot of experience in the Navy doing information operations and things like that, and a lot of cybersecurity stuff. So I want to hear more about it from Bob. So Bob, thanks for being here. And I'd like to get started by asking you, you know, Yeah, absolutely. You know, where are you from? What's been your path like? How did you get to where you are today?

Yeah, thanks so much for inviting me on your podcast, Chris. I do appreciate that. Yeah, I feel like everybody has really their own individual path these days, right? It looks like we are really living in a generation where technology increases so rapidly, so exponentially, that more than ever before, it looks like people are having more and more careers at a much faster rate. What I mean is, when my grandparents went to school and they started their career back then, you pretty much only worked for one company for your entire career, and then you would retire and get like golden watch. And when my dad went to school, it was kind of like that, but things started changing. Most people there will probably have 3 or 4 careers in their lifetime, but today I think it's at least 7, 10, 15, 20, especially with these new Gen Zs and Millennials, like They can stay anywhere long enough to really learn, it seems like. But anyway, but I think part of what's making it go much faster is there is so many opportunities and the technology is really changing a lot of things so quickly that people really have to keep up with their skills, right? And in order to pretty much remain employed because artificial intelligence, automation and so forth is really taking away a lot of those entry-level position in my opinion. So people really also now, I feel like they really want to do work that matters, right? Not just making money. Looks like again, Gen Zs don't really— they care about money, but it's not their primary motivation. They really want to do some type of work that feels good, that's great for the environment, or aligned with something that they personally passionately care about. Anyway, having said all of this, when I first started my career I was a pre-med student at the University of Alabama, so I was studying biology and chemistry, and my goal was to then go to medical school and get an MD and probably a PhD as well, and kind of like have a medical practice. But even then, I was like 17 years old. I kind of knew regardless of what anybody did, I felt like— no, that was like in the mid-'90s. I felt like for the 21st century, Everybody needs to have at least 3 skill sets in addition to whatever it is they want to do. One, I felt like it was computers because computers, you know, if you remember on Windows 95, AOL, you've got mail and this kind of thing, it was kind of new, kind of magical, and I could perceive that it would pretty much take over the world, which it did. So I was like, just like, I guess, you know, the century prior with my grandparents, my parents, The big push is you have to be literate, you have to learn how to read, how to write. And I really felt like everybody needed to learn how to do computers because it's going to be the future, period. So that's one thing I felt like was very important. And another one was business, right? No matter what you do, whether you are in technology or medicine, which is my original dream, or even if you are, you know, a brickmaker or a cook or whatever, whatever you do in life, I felt like you had to understand business, how to get value and sell things, make a profit and service a need of a nation in order for you to make it financially. And then last, I felt like everybody needed to learn leadership skills, right? You really had to be a leader. And today, more than ever before, I really feel like leadership is the most crucial skill of the 21st century. Like I mentioned earlier, automation is replacing a lot of jobs, but I feel like the world will always, always need people who have leadership skills, who can influence other people and work together as a team and get things done. They still need people to oversee the deployment of this automation technology and so forth. So really those three things, when I was 17 years old, I really felt like I needed to get some experience in all three: technology, business, and leadership. So I kind of started my path that way. I graduated with a degree in chemistry and biology because my GPA was very high. I was actually able to skip the master's stage and go for a PhD program. And while I was in this PhD program, that's when I got married and then I had a kid on the way and I kind of, I felt the need to have a full-time job that paid more than the $1,000 stipend a month that PhD students get at the University of Alabama as a graduate student. And thankfully for me, I really had a great job to fall into because prior to that I was student assistant library doing computer, which is a pretty crazy, crazy things. I already said, you know, part of the reason why I felt like I needed to learn more about computers, but when I got this job, I didn't know anything about computers at all. That was back in 1997. I was very scared of technology actually, but that was really the one and only job that was available to me at the time. So I took it and I worked very, very hard, but really what took away the fear of computing was when we had a bunch of older computers in our inventory that we would normally they commissioned, right? So I had hundreds of those to play with, but I decided to take one of those computers and break it apart, open up the computer, remove the motherboard and every single component, and then put it back together and turn it on and see if it worked. That's really how I was able to overcome my fear of computers. Like they say, the rest is history. So when it came time, I was married and I had a child on the way and I needed to really find a full-time job. That's where I went. So I was working full-time for the University Libraries as a computer technician, and it kind of went from there. I started working on my certification for the Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer certification. And when I was taking those classes and going through all of the exam, I found out Microsoft had started a brand new track about security. So that really was my first introduction to computer security. I really fell in love and I felt like, okay, this is what I need to do for the rest of my life. And when I got a chance to work for the first Chief Information Security Officer of the University of Alabama, I definitely took that chance. I was already a director of IT, but I wanted to do security full-time. So I became an information security system engineer. And like they say, you know, the rest is history. I've been doing security ever since.

Interesting. Yeah, that's a cool, unique path. Like you mentioned, you know, everyone You know, after a while, really everyone has a unique and interesting path, but I like how you, you started out in pre-med wanting to be a doctor and then you just, life happens in a way, you know, things just change and you end up on a different path and you know, you make the most of it, you succeed in it. In your case, I like that story, how to really, like if you're gonna be working with computers and you know, you feel you just need to master it, take the whole thing apart, put it back together. And do it until you can get the thing to work. That's a, that's a cool story. Yeah. And you've been in IT, or more specifically cybersecurity, ever since then. So, and that's what, about 15 years ago or so now?

Yeah, I think, yeah, I started doing cybersecurity full-time in 2005, so it's been about 16 years full-time. But prior to that though, one thing I really love about cybersecurity is it doesn't matter what you do in IT, a component of what you do has to deal with security because security pretty much transcends and touches every single domain of IT, whether you're a database administrator and engineer or developer, doesn't really matter what you do, networking, IT support, part of your job you will be spending touching cybersecurity. You just have to. So, but I really, really wanted to do this full-time. And another thing that happened too around that time, 2005, is I joined the Navy Reserve in 2004. And the story about that, it's quite interesting. Like I've said, everybody has their own unique story and their own path. But after 9/11, right? I wasn't a US citizen at the time, but my wife was a US citizen and I had a baby on the way who would be a US citizen born here. But after 9/11, I wanted to join the military. I wanted to join the fight. So I went to talk to all of recruiters I could, the Army, the Marines, the Air Force, everyone. And I quickly found out that I didn't want to join the Army or the Marines. I believe those people are crazy, but I felt like the Air Force or the Navy would probably use more of my brain. So that's just inside joke, Navy, Army, Air Force. But anyway, I love everyone, but I really felt like Navy or Air Force would be the one. And also my father-in-law at the time was there with Tyrotech, Sergeant, Air Force, E5. So I definitely appreciated that a lot, but Also remember when I told you I was 17, I felt like leadership was one of those things I really needed to get better at. And there is nothing better than military leadership. Really, the military is really a leadership organization in my opinion. They just happen to have a bunch of people with a bunch of weapons to do a lot of damage when needed. But anyway, so I talked to all of the recruiters at the time. I already had my degree, right? In '99, I graduated with a degree in chemistry and biology. Biology, and also I was already a director of IT at the time. So I was pretty sure, yeah, I am going to get in and maybe become an officer either in the Navy or the Air Force. Well, they found out that I wasn't a US citizen. Then they asked me, okay, do you have a green card? Do you have that permanent residency card for the US? I'm like, no, I don't have that yet. They're like, okay, sorry, but you can't join. Not for you. And this has happened to me quite a few times throughout my entire life and career, right, where sometimes it's, I guess they call it catch-22, right? Like when I was a freshman trying to find a job on campus, they're like, no, we can't give you a job unless you already have experience. I'm like, well, I can't get experience unless you give me a job. So, uh, kind of like in that circle. And then the military clearly said, no, you're not a U.S. citizen, you don't have a green card, you cannot join. So no, we are not going to allow you to do that. Go back to Senegal. I'm like, okay, very, very well, I am going to do just that. However, What I decided was, okay, I'm gonna go and get exactly what you say I don't have, and I'll be back, like with Terminator, right? So 3 years later, so that was in 2001, 3 years later I got my green card and I went back to the Navy and the Air Force. And again, I wasn't a US citizen yet, so I couldn't be an officer. So the Navy said, well, we can put you in as an enlisted IT since you do a bunch of IT. In, uh, the civilian side. And also because of your experience, instead of starting as seaman or below, we can probably start you as a petty officer of 3rd class. But then another issue I had was even though I had the green card, I wasn't a US citizen, therefore I wasn't eligible for security clearance, and I had to have at least a secret clearance. And because of that, they're like, okay, there is no way, so we're gonna put you as a seaman apprentice, which is like an E-1, but when you go to boot camp, we're gonna put you as E-2 IT-3, which is a seaman, and then whenever you get your citizenship, then you can take the IT exam and become an IT-3. I'm like, okay, that's better than nothing. So I enlisted in 2004, and that was quite an experience. And when I went to boot camp, really, my life completely changed. I was never, never, never the same again. But then again, a couple of years later, 2006, I became a U.S. citizen. And I went back to the officer recruiter I had talked to 2 years prior. I'm like, okay, you told me I need to be a U.S. citizen. Here are my citizenship papers. What do I do to become an officer? And it took about a year and a half or so, then I became an ensign. And just a few months ago, April 2021, I realized my lifetime dream of finally becoming a senior naval officer. So I was promoted to the rank of commander in the U.S. Navy. And my story really couldn't be possible anywhere else but in America.

Yeah, that's quite an interesting story. A lot of hoops you had to jump through to serve the country. It shouldn't be that hard.

Yes, yes, indeed. That's just the way it is. Now that I am a senior officer, maybe I can make it a little bit easier for some people in the future. We'll see. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of red tape and bureaucracy in the US government just in general, and sometimes maybe a lot of waste too, especially compared to the industry, right? In Silicon Valley, for example, so different from working for the government. For one thing, for example, in the Navy, I feel like we almost have like unlimited budget, right? Whatever we need, we get it. It's national security. I think if Congress doesn't have the money, they probably just get to the Federal Reserve to print it or something. But when you live in the real world, though, like where I am now as the head of cybersecurity for Drakly, a startup in Silicon Valley, I mean, we have to have a return on investment on every expenditure, right? We don't just security for security's sake, right? Has to be aligned to the business objective and we need to get some real value return. So I feel like the military is doing that more and more. It's changed a lot, right? In the past 17 years I have been in, when I first joined, it really felt like a fraternity, right? I would say glorified fraternity, but now I think it's running more and more like a business. So there are definitely some changes along the way. 'Cause when I joined the Navy too, they used to talk about the drunk and cursing sailor and so forth. But that's definitely not the case today. It's definitely much more professional, at least in my experience.

That's interesting. I want to ask you about when you, you know, were in the Navy, but as an, I guess, as an officer now, what kind of IT work and cybersecurity work were you doing? I'm sure some of it would be confidential, we can't discuss it. But I'd like to hear what kind of issues the Navy and the military has in terms of cybersecurity and how those might compare and contrast to the issues that a business might have with cybersecurity.

Yeah, so I think one of the, um, biggest difference I have seen is, at least in the Navy, I think it's the same thing across all of the other branches, cybersecurity is just critical right now. It has become a completely separate domain, just like surface warfare and, uh, air warfare. Cyber is its domain. So I am an information professional officer, and in 2010 is when we became the Information Dominance Corps. We are now called information warfare officer, which includes not just IP, which the IP, what we do is defend the network, right? So blue forces. And we have CPOs as well, cryptologic officer, and those, they usually do cyber offense, right? They attack the enemy. Then we have intel, that's gives us a lot of cyber-related intel about the capability of the adversary and things like that. And then we have MITAC as well, right, for the waiver. So, and all of this plus the Space Cadre, so 5 areas now kind of form what's called the Information Warfare Community. Now, when I was enlisted, I used to be an IT-3 right before I became an instance. So as an enlisted IT, you are really, you know, hands on deck, we're really working at the tactical level, implemented all of the policies, procedure, configuration of server system, and those kind of things. So as an IP officer, especially as a JO, you kind of oversee a whole bunch of enlisted. So for an IP officer, ITs would be reporting to me. For example, I will be the communication officer or the information assurance officer, and then I would have IT actually doing the work while I'm kind of work at the operational level. And then as a senior officer, now as a commander, the Navy is pushing us to work mostly at the strategic level, kind of set the strategy, the doctrine, and then the junior officer, the JEO, operational, and then the IET technical. Generally speaking, I think that is true across all of the branches, but basically we do everything a business would in terms of ensuring confidentiality, integrity, and availability, but in my opinion, the Navy and the military takes it much, much more seriously than business does. Definitely, we put a lot more money, right? The way we spend our money, the budget shows how much of a priority it is. And also, it's pretty much ingrained into the culture of the organization. No matter what you do really today in the Navy, a portion of what you do is kind of related to cyber in many ways. Whereas when I am in the industry, that's not always the case. Sometimes cybersecurity is kind of like its own island there, and you can't really drive a cybersecurity program for entire organization with just the IT team or the cybersecurity team. It really has to be an all-hands-on-deck type of approach. I think you really have to infiltrate the culture and have the entire culture awareness of cybersecurity-wise, right? Because in cyber, we always say, uh, We are only as strong as our weakest link, right? It sometimes only takes one account to get hacked, one system to be breached before the enemy can then move or the hacker can move laterally into your network and pretty much game over. So I think that urgency and really that prioritization of cybersecurity is one thing I have seen that in the industry, we are not quite where the military is. But hopefully, you know, that is trending in the right way.

That's an interesting insight you have. You mentioned near the end there about the cultural difference and how to— you may have to, you know, infiltrate the culture to get everyone on board with these sort of initiatives. Speaking of culture and influencing culture, I want to transition a little bit about— to talk about leadership. Obviously, in the military, you and I both know you probably even more because you're an officer, you know how important leadership is in the military, how well it's taught to military personnel. So I want to ask you, what kind of things did you learn about leadership through your time in the military?

That is a good question. I actually wrote an article about that for Strixus, which is a magazine for executives, including cyber or IT execs. And in the article, which I titled 3 leadership lessons from a Navy commander. I'll talk about number 1, leadership being the most critical skill for the 21st century, right? And I also think even within the Navy, leadership is changing quite a bit, right? Because the leadership that worked for us in the 20th century is not going to work in the 21st century for a few reasons. For one thing, the military in general in the 20th century, you can think of, you know, World War I, World War II, it was not very diverse, right? It was pretty much dominated by white male. That was the culture, which is not the case today. And number 2, we have a big difference was back then also, so first it is mostly dominated by white male, but also there wasn't much of a generation difference within the rank. Most people were within 1, 2, at most 3 generations from one another, which is absolutely not the case today because in our society now, we have Like I talked about the Gen Z, the millennials, I am Generation X. You can have like 4 to 5 generations working in the same industry, in the same organization today. And on top of that, you have more and more women now and you have ethnic minorities. So it's definitely not the same world it used to be. Because of that, I really feel like leadership is the one skill that is going to help us be successful for the remaining of this 21st century. And kind of like what my mentor had told me, my sidadi, when I joined the Navy, kind of like what location is to real estate is really what leadership is to the Navy. And I think that's true for the military in general. What we do is we develop leaders, right? That's number one, number two, and number three. And everything else is just extra. Because especially during a time of war, you are in charge of troops and it's really a matter of life and death. I mean, you better make sure you are making the right leadership decision. And then I think the second most important thing I've learned from my time in the Navy so far is leadership is influence. One of my leadership mentors says, "Leadership is influence, nothing more and nothing less." And I really, really agree with that statement because many times, even in the industry, right, in cybersecurity, usually you have a much smaller team and many times though, you have to influence people who are not direct report, right? They don't report to you, So you can't order them, you can't tell them what to do, but you need to influence them to do the right thing for the organization. And I think having those soft skills and being able to influence people, that is really, really, really critical in what we do. And then the very last point I brought was that leadership was learnable, right? I remember my bootcamp experience and everything I went through, but by the time you get out of bootcamp, I almost feel like you are born again in a way. You are a completely different person because this is pretty much the Navy strips out everything that you really relate with. Like, for at least 2 weeks, I didn't have any contact with any, anybody. I didn't talk to my wife, to my kids. I didn't even know what was going on in the world. No access to TV, nothing. It was quite, quite an experience, but like, the Navy pretty much broke me down, and then by the end of boot camp, kind of put me back to get into a sailor. And yeah, that was quite, quite an experience. And that was really the beginning of my leadership journey as an ITSM, as an IT seaman. So generally speaking too, another one of my mentors says it takes about 10,000 hours or so to become an expert in pretty much any field. And anybody who's an expert today, of course, started as a novice, right? Nobody was born an expert. All of the experts today, they started not knowing anything about anything in the industry. Or in the area where they exceed today. So if it takes about 10,000 hours or so to become an expert, that's about 5 years if you're working full-time. So I think, you know, you can make a decision to become a better leader and learn how to be a leader, and 5 years from now, it's going to serve you very, very well. So I really feel like you've got nothing to lose. But again, my opinion, no matter what you do, No matter what industry or job, you really need to become a leader, an effective leader in the 21st century to be successful.

Definitely. Those are some very wise words, Bob. Very wise words, I would say. I want to hone in on point number 3 that you made about leadership being learnable. How do you teach leadership? How do you make someone a better leader, I guess would be my question, and how would you respond to that?

Yes. From my experience in the military, they do spend time, you know, with PowerPoint and teaching you about leadership principles and so forth, which is nice, but I don't think that's the way the military, at least the Navy, makes leaders. I think we practice leadership, right? It's kind of like sink or swim type of thing. I've experienced, especially as a junior officer, right? The Navy is going to stretch you. For example, when we get orders, they are never more than 2 or 3 years maximum. So they put you somewhere, something you've never done, and they expect you to be successful. And if you are, they give you another set of orders after that. So by the time you become a senior officer, like I'm now, a commander, you would have very good experience in many, many different things. You will have a pretty big idea of what the Navy does and kind of like how all of the components come together to really make, make us, I believe, the most powerful Navy the world has ever seen. So it is really, I think, about doing it, right? They're gonna make you— like when I became a division officer, I had about 3-5 people working for me, and then I became a department head, I had about 10-15, 12 people working for me. To today, right, I'm the executive officer for my unit and I have about 66 people who report to me now. But by making you responsible for a group of people, no matter how big or small it is, really judging you by the results, right? You have to be effective and you have to achieve the mission, right? We always say in the Navy, mission first and people always. So learning to find a way to motivate people to have— it's not just like driving the bus and having the right people in the bus, but having the right person for each seat of the bus, right? And I think we definitely teach that, but, but I think what really makes it a leadership organization, in my opinion, is the practice. We really get a lot of time getting those green people enlisted too, not just officers, because even when I was a Petty Officer Third Class, an IT-3, leadership became even more important than it was when I was a seaman. Already my chief in my unit were kind of grooming me to one day become a Navy chief, which is a very, very, very big deal. Actually, when I was in boot camp, by the time boot camp was ended, I made up my mind I was either going to become a senior enlisted, which is a chief or above, E-7 or above, or a senior officer. It just happened that the officer route is the one that kind of the opportunities that came my way. But yeah, I believe leadership is practice. You have to practice leadership. Yes, you need to learn about it. You need to study it, but most importantly, you need to put those principles that you study into practice. But even in my personal life, you know, at home, being married, having kids, That's one of the greatest leadership lessons I think anybody can learn, being able to live peacefully with another human being and influencing them sometimes, right, to learning how to compromise really and influencing people within your family to do things a certain way for the betterment of the entire family unit. So a lot of those leadership principles can be applied in that context too, I have found.

Certainly. It's a very good point. Bob, I want to wrap up with a question again about, you know, cyber and the prevalence of cyber attacks, hackings, and so on. How do you think the prevalence of cyber attacks and the increasing prevalence of cyber attacks will change the international landscape or our international world order and maybe even things like our foreign policy and our national defense strategy?

Yeah, cyberspace cannot be ignored, right? Especially recently we have seen how something that happened in cyberspace can have a direct effect in the physical realm, right? The convergence of the effect of cyber from cyberspace to the physical world. I think for the first time this really happened at the scale that people noticed was last year, 2020, in the middle of the pandemic in Germany, right? Some hackers had some ransomware in some hospital there in Germany, and they couldn't use their computer. And like I said at the very beginning of this interview, no matter what you do, including being a medical doctor or a nurse or being in the medical field, you have to learn computers because you cannot do your work without it. So pretty much the hospital shut down. They couldn't do anything. Doctors couldn't have access to medical records. They couldn't use any of their equipment that depends on technology, and there was one patient there who was in a critical state that they had to move from that hospital to another hospital where they would be able to use the technology to follow up on the care of this patient. And on the way there, the patient died. So as far as I know, that was the first time that an attack in cyber actually cost the life of a human being in the real world. And then of course, most recently in the US, I'm sure everybody has heard about the Colonial Pipeline, especially those on the East Coast when the price of a gallon of gas went all the way up to $7 a gallon. Again, something that happens on cyber has a real immediate effect in the real world. And we also know that where we are now, this is public knowledge, but our infrastructure is definitely something that a lot of very smart people think about because it's definitely possible for an attacker to pretty much shut down our power or even the water. I think it was in Florida, right? About a couple of months ago, someone tried to poison the water of the city in Florida by remoting into an account of somebody who had actually left the company, but for some reason their account was still active and they had admin privilege and they started shutting down systems. So it really can be very, very, very scary to what can happen. It's really a matter of national security. And on top of that, one of the biggest issues we have today in the cybersecurity industry, I believe, is there is a huge demand but not enough qualified people to do the job, right? And in the Navy, in the information professional community, we call ourselves a low-density, high-demand community. Low density, not enough of us to go around, and high demand because the Navy really needs people with this type of skill set. So I really feel like it needs to be a serious push to really get the next generation, right, the millennials and Gen Z to really get into cyber because we really, really need more qualified people to do the job. And on top of that, I think another priority, at least from my perspective, is we need that cybersecurity workforce to be more diverse, right? We need to see more women and more ethnic minority getting into cyber. This is really a wonderful, wonderful profession. I am really so glad I kind of stumbled into this. And in many ways, right, I feel like it kind of gives me job security. Like I said earlier, With automation and the advancement of the technology, many of the entry-level positions are really being replaced pretty quickly. Like even now, you cannot hardly go to even a grocery store without seeing one of those self-checkout machines where they don't have to use any clerk, they don't have to pay for sick leave or vacation leave or any of that. People check themselves out, right? But having said all of that, I really, really feel like cyber is here to stay. And I feel like privacy is where cybersecurity was maybe, what, 10, 15 years ago. It is just becoming something that the people and government around the world are going to really start to prioritize and demand. It is very important to keep private personal data and it's very important to ensure confidentiality, integrity, and availability because really our entire lives today depends on technology. Like, even today, there is really almost nothing I can do without my iPhone, or people who use Android. Like, my entire digital life is in this one device. Just imagine what life would be like if you couldn't get on the internet. I mean, it is so important and so critical that we absolutely, really, at any cost, have to ensure its safety and security. And I believe more and more on government realizing this. I think One of the biggest laws that happened toward privacy was GDPR, which was enforced, I think it was May of 2018. And for those who are now in California, we have the CCPA, right? The California Consumer Protection Act. And I feel like we really need to have a national privacy law and cybersecurity needs to have even a higher priority than it has ever been, just because the alternative could be catastrophic for our nation. It will impact our business, our finances, our way of life. I mean, everything.

Yeah, certainly. Very well said, Bob. You're a wealth of information. I feel like we could talk for hours and I would still be learning stuff. But Bob, we're more or less out of time. I do want to ask you if any final thoughts, anything you wish I asked that I didn't ask.

I think one thing I am kind of focused on now, I am on the board of the the AZ Cyber Initiative and United Cybersecurity Alliance. And both organization, they have for mission to really increase the diversity of cybersecurity. We want to have more women, more people of color and represented community into cyber. This is really the industry of the future. Cybersecurity is here to stay. Like even now with the COVID-19 pandemic last year, a lot of people were not able to work at all, like restaurants were closed. For a while, and then many, the great majority of the hospitality industry, they were pretty much out of the job. But anyone who's working in cyber or IT, they were still able to work from their home or from wherever in the world they had internet access. So I feel like this is very, very important. We need to have more qualified people. According to IC Square last year, I believe there were about 4 million IT positions, but we only have about 2. 3, 2.5 IT specialists worldwide. So there are a lot of positions right now we cannot even fill because we just don't have the workforce. So I would like the American kids today to really get interested in STEM— science, technology, engineering, math— and to really get into IT and cybersecurity. We need you to join the fight because you are really doing something that is important for your country, for the world, but also doing something I believe that is highly personally rewarding, knowing that you are making a difference. And thanks again, Chris, for inviting me on your podcast.

Yeah, thank you so much, Bob. That was amazing discussion. I'm very glad to have you. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

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