Episode 16: Live with David Val Verde on Leadership & Success

Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If you need to develop into a better leader, this podcast is for you. If you want to achieve a greater level of success, this podcast is for you. His mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell, said it best: everything rises and falls on leadership. We hope to inspire you today and provide you with an insight that has the potential to positively impact the trajectory of your life. Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast.

So are you, are you ready to go? Hey everyone, thank you so much for being here. I am very, very excited to have a great guest with me, and, uh, his name is David. David Valverde is the founder and CEO of Panos and also a member of the Forbes Technology Council. How are you doing, David? Good morning to you.

I'm very well. Thank you for having me.

Wonderful. Yes, as you know, this show is all about leadership and success, and I feel like leadership is really the most critical skill in the world. And there are about maybe 36,000 or so potential viewers for this live podcast, and a lot of people who follow me, they really, really want to become a better leader. Some of them are just getting started right out of college and they have dreams of becoming a founder CEO like, uh, yourself. Can you tell us more about your leadership journey, how you got to be where you are today?

Yeah, so I can be as brief as possible when it comes to that question. Um, yeah, I mean, I basically started while I was in college and I kind of always tried different ventures. And while I was going through my my courses. Um, and then we graduated, you know, you, you basically go through a fork in the road and you have to really figure out what you're going to do. It's really a time in your life when there's a lot of pressure from family, friends, and you're seeing, you're comparing yourself with everybody and you want to pick, make the right decision. But at the end of the day, um, you have to pick something that aligns with the aptitudes and what you're passionate about. And of course, something that has, uh, large enough market demand. But I think my biggest advice when it comes to that is to, while you're young or when you can, wherever you're at, is try to try a lot of different things so you can get more context about the market and more about yourself. And it'll allow you to make a better decision, more informed decision about your career, the more you know about yourself and your environment. So try everything, explore. That's what I'll say about that.

So how did you end up being the founder for Pynoos? I know you guys do a lot of great work there with this display on cars. Where did the idea come from and how did you kind of build that business?

Yeah, so, you know, the idea came from a lot of different concepts and it didn't just come from a single person. A lot of different iterations. We've kind of traveled to a lot of different countries and really talked to a lot of different potential customers from around the world and really picked their brain on what they wanted before we really truly built the, the minimal viable product or the technology itself. We built some of the technology but not all of it. Initially, I mean, when it comes to Pranos, we wanted to create something that allowed and empowered people not only financially but also as far as— and so they can— are able to communicate their message just the same way you're able to, to pick your clothes every day. Now you can, uh, now your car can, can basically communicate whatever message you want in high definition. And I think that's powerful when it comes to, uh, uh, the B2C side. So just to add to that, just because I think it is relevant, um, if you kind of drive around any city around the world any city, and you really start to pay attention to the signage and the messaging, it's all operated and ran and bought by businesses, right? Whether it's a restaurant or a new hospital or new laws or even the cars, it's like you see the big brand, whether it's Hyundai, Toyota. There's not a lot of personal expression when it comes to the urban areas. Other than perhaps your car, right? And perhaps what type of car you have. But, um, I mean, psychologically, we, we all want to express ourselves and be more understood by our surroundings. And I think allowing people to do that with Pranos and having that footprint of the personal consumer, from a personal consumer, I think that's what people love so much. I mean, we've been getting people signing up every day, but I think that's what it is. I think it's just there's a need for it when it comes to the outside world. I mean, we have it in the digital world with social media, but it's still kind of non-existent in the outside world.

So that is pretty cool. And I'm looking at your website right now, Your Story Everywhere. So you mean to tell me anybody could pretty much play whatever video they want while they are driving for everybody outside to see?

Correct, correct. You could, um, yeah, yeah, we don't have any pre-approved videos. We— it's the same principle as buying a TV and a DVD player and playing whatever you'd like. Um, that's, that's what we're doing at Prime.

Wow, that is, uh, pretty, pretty cool. Now, when you start a venture like this, two things I want to talk about. One is, uh, the financing aspect. How do you raise money and make sure your company remains profitable.

Yeah, so when it comes to financing, you know, you basically have to go step by step. I think that's my biggest piece of advice, and that's what we've done as well. You want to go pre-seed if you need it, but you really have to raise your seed, your Series A, and kind of do that incrementally. A lot of people like to jump straight into seed when they're not ready, or straight into Series A when they're not ready. A lot of these investors are looking— you have to meet a lot of prerequisites before it even makes sense. And that's something I didn't really understand when I first started. I thought that you could just come in and raise a few million dollars right out of the gate. But what you have to understand is that these people, these investors, these financial investors, they want to see traction and they want the metrics have to align with their their thesis and their portfolio and everything else. But really at the end of the day, what I'm really trying to communicate is that you have to— I guess the best way to say it is you have to go step by step and raise just enough money to get you to that next stage, right? Whether, you know, in each stage you're going to have your own test. And if you don't pass that test, you won't be able to raise another round. Whether it's initial customers or building the product or whether it's generating that revenue or whether you got to become cash flow positive or, you know, there's different milestones for each and depending on your company, depending on whatever it is. But, and you have to just raise just enough money so you don't dilute too much. Just raise enough to meet those goals and make sure you bring in the right team to be able to do it in a lean way. That's another thing that I think I see all the time with a lot of startups is they raise a lot of money and that they get into this mind, mind state where they spend proportionally with how much they raise and then they end up not really even finding that product market fit because they just move too fast, spend too fast, make too many mistakes, bigger mistakes than if you raise a smaller round and you kind of go step by step and you kind of are just more frugal about your, your, your process. And I think that is— it kind of is a double-edged sword when you raise a $3 million pre-seed, but that's just kind of from what I've observed.

We're going to get back to the idea of growing your own team and making sure you are doing it in a lean way, you know, compared to all of the revenues you've got. But, uh, can you tell us about the, uh, WeFunder page? Uh, you have— looks like you are raising money from anyone. Can you tell us How does that work?

Yeah, sure. So we are actually registered with the SEC via Reg CF, and WeFunder is the broker of record. And yeah, we opened that up because we wanted to give the community and people from around the world, a lot of our potential customers, a chance to buy a stake in our company via convertible note. And it's been a really, really good experience. WeFunder allows the process to be very seamless and allows it to be— really allows you to create your own terms. You have to test your terms and all that. There's a process when it comes to figuring out your terms, but it's been a really interesting experience. And of course, venture capital and these types of secondary markets, for example, are starting to get more popular. Now, but yeah, I mean, feel free to check it out.

Well, that is wonderful. So growing your business, you are the founder, you are the CEO. How in the world do you lead a team? How do you recruit and retain talent and making sure that you are not growing too fast?

Yeah, that is a good question. So You know, what's interesting about what we're doing is we've been fortunate that when it comes to recruiting from the very beginning, it almost seems like it's all been kind of serendipity when it comes to growing the team. I've always kind of just been big on ask and you shall find, and or seek, you shall find. And if people come to me, It's not like I allow everyone to join the team, but for the most part, if someone's very passionate and they want to be part of the team, they usually are on the team. And it almost seems like that's how the team has been built, is, is just people have come to us and they've just joined. And if there's a fit and they get opportunity, um, we started soliciting, um, for, for roles, particularly for internship roles and some engineering roles. Supportive engineering roles. And of course, you know, through LinkedIn, and that's been real successful. But when it comes to vetting talent, um, you know, one of the biggest things I look for is, is that the values are aligned and the mission is aligned with what they think and what they're able to contribute to the actual company. Um, but of course, yeah, just the tangible skills that they may possess. I think that's also very important. Um, just overall, just to see that they're a fit with when it comes to, uh, communication and being able to be coached by the rest of the team and being able to take constructive criticism. Just somebody that, that, that can see themselves as being a team player. I think that's a big thing. Um, and really the, the ability to learn. I think that's one of the biggest things. Just wanted to add this last bit is, is, um, Some people are just— you don't have to know it all because none of us will ever know it all. Um, but it's just the ability to learn fast and implement, you know, extract information, implement, synthesize, and, and really collaborate in that way. I think when you find somebody that can— is a quick learner, is— it's really a— that's, that's, that's a huge find.

So, well, you are truly a serial entrepreneur because I think you also founded, right, the, uh, Community for Global, uh, Innovation. So in All of the roles you've had up to this point, what do you think are some of the best tips about dealing with people and leading them? I know you, you mentioned on teamwork and really the desire, uh, to learn, but what else do you think has helped you be successful being a leader?

Yeah, I think, uh, yeah, when you're in the position of leadership, whatever capacity, whether whether you're a manager or C-suite or whatever the case may be, startup founder, um, I think the biggest thing is just to create an environment for them to— for your team to thrive and be able to give the right amount of resources for them to, to, to contribute to, to their, um, to the, to the larger mission. Um, and really at the end of the day, the way I've always looked at it is as the founder, um, I work for my team. It's not really the other way around. You're really allocating capital, you're setting the mission, you're building the team. You know, you're kind of starting as a founder, you kind of start a lot of the processes and then you kind of delegate as you grow and you're leading from the front. I think just creating that environment of transparency and really living up to the values that you preach, not just have posters around the office, but actually display them in your actions. And I think that's what really counts.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think the number one characteristic of all of the great leaders anybody can think about is they do what they say. They are role models, right? They lead from the front. That is really, really important. So you also happen to be, like me, a member of the Forbes Technology Consult. I think it's a very exclusive club with a lot of benefits. How did you get to become a member?

Yeah, so I actually— somebody actually put in a recommendation for me and then, you know, they accepted me to the group and it's been a great experience so far. I mean, just being able to publish articles For the Forbes Tech Council has been great and just write about— it's really just writing about business and technology and it's been great and meeting great people like yourself as well. It's been— that's a great opportunity.

Yeah, especially the last one I think is extremely great. Now we're gonna come to the part of the podcast where I'm gonna ask you my 7 favorite questions. Uh, number 1 is, uh, what is the greatest lesson you have learned?

Greatest lesson? Well, I think I've learned so many, and I feel like I learn new lessons every day. I feel like it never stops. But yeah, I think, you know, it kind of just goes into— I think a lot of the lessons I've learned have not been just lessons that I've learned in theory. It's all been in practice. I mean, it's great to feel like we all start learning things in theory, and then we practice them as we live our life, but a lot of things, you know, you start to apply in your life and it starts to resonate when you actually practice them. And one of the biggest things has just been to stick strong to my values and virtues in general. I had a conversation with Richard Kramlich, which is— he's one of my mentors. I think that kind of touches on your question that you posed earlier, but Yeah, he's the, he's the chairman and, uh, founder of NEA, New Enterprise Associates, and, uh, they're probably one of the biggest venture capital groups in the world. Um, he— I mean, bigger than Sequoia. They're just very elusive, it seems like. Not a lot of people know about them, but wow, you'll know. I mean, they have like two, uh, things like $500 billion of market that they've created. Already.

That's impressive.

Portfolio companies. Um, but him, uh, Dick Kramlich himself, um, actually invested in Apple. Um, he was their angel investor. He was actually, uh, with Don Valentine, the founder of Sequoia. Um, he invested alongside him, um, for, for Apple's, uh, seed round when they raised $400,000. I think he invested like $200,000 into that round.

Wow.

So he was the biggest shareholders in. Yeah, so, you know, he's someone I really look up to and just somebody that's just by just talking to somebody like that just changes your life by just the way he can tell when you can just tell by the way he navigates things. It's just he's not a greedy individual. He's just a good virtuous, just kind guy, just very selfless. Individual. So I think that having conversations with guys like that have allowed me to see business in a different way. I mean, you know, when you kind of get this idea that business sometimes it's all about selling and putting products and services down people's throats and all this stuff, and you hear all these stories, but then, you know, as you get older and you start realizing that it's about creating value and really treating people the right way. And it's just, I know it sounds nuanced But it's crazy how all the top leaders, they really are like just very, very good people, which is sometimes people don't— people think that all these billionaires running around, they're not, but they really are. That's the reason they're there. I mean, they've treated people right for so long that, um, they're just— they're still here, you know. And, um, so that's, that's my biggest takeaway, and that's my one of my biggest lessons I've learned the last few years. It was just like how important that is to really do the right thing and to not really— to not always try to get the upper end on all your negotiations because you're going to have to negotiate all the time. Always trying to find the win-win and everything. And that's kind of what someone like Dick Cramlich practices. And I think just finding that win-win, you know, and that was— to me, it resonated.

That is so great. You've given us so much wisdom nuggets about leadership. I think that mentorship is definitely one of the master secret keys of success for sure. When you find that uncommon mentor who sometimes holds you accountable too, right, and kind of challenges you at times. And I also like what you say about, you know, business not just being about money and the bottom line, but actually adding real value. So what do you think is the greatest leadership advice you have ever received?

Oh, well, best leadership advice. Um, well, you know, I mean, I've seen a lot. Like I said, I've talked to so many guys, so many people. Um, you know, something that, you know, perhaps— yeah, that's a good question. Um, you know, I guess I'll touch on something that maybe Dick Kramlich has kind kind of mentioned. He, uh, one of the best pieces of advice I've gotten is just to, um, it kind of just touches on the previous question. It's just to always find that win-win and to create a culture that's set up on, on the right values. And kind of everything I talked about, I, I kind of got— it was kind of the root of what I've gotten from him is just to set, to build the right culture in your company based on, on on good values and really just seeing it as you're creating jobs. That's another thing is that people, founders forget that or they don't talk about it enough. It's all about revenue and it's great. Revenue is great. That's how you're able to create more jobs, but you really are creating jobs and that's so important. And I think that—

Yes.

That there's nothing, there's, I mean, I don't think there's any better calling than creating more jobs for people and occupation. People to really take care of themselves and their families, you know. So I think that's really good advice. It's just looking at business in a different way. I think that's, you know, all these little things that people say that kind of resonate with me, kind of allowed me to see things from a different perspective than I originally kind of saw it.

So that is, that is wonderful. So question number 2, uh, what are you learning now?

Yeah, well, I mean, I'm constantly learning different things. Currently what I'm learning, I'm big on is, well, I guess, what can I touch on? So, I mean, we're working a lot on optimizing our supply chain right now and cutting costs and basically increasing our profit margins. So I am learning a lot about that and working with vendors. To do that. I'm also just learning, I'm constantly learning about, you know, finance and how to make sure that you're creating the right deal and the right opportunity for potential investors. And yeah, I think those two things are big right now. And then just recruiting, just creating the right compensation package for people as well and incentivizing them to to be part of your team. That's a continuous process as well. Um, yeah, things along those lines.

Nice. Question number 3, how has failure shaped your life?

Yeah, this is a really, really good question. Um, I think failure has been my biggest catalyst from the beginning. Um, I don't wanna touch on it too much, but you know, I guess I, I'd be considered, you know, kind of an underdog in general. Um, but not anymore, maybe, but you know, when I first started, perhaps I saw myself that way and, you know, realizing that really wasn't, but, um, yeah, I don't know. It seems like sometimes what society may deem as a failure, it really is an opportunity to either get put into that corner that society puts you in, or you think you got put in because you failed at something, or it's an opportunity to have more context on yourself and the world. And you can kind of grow from there. I think that was that. It's just been a big opportunity when you actually, yeah, it's just a way for you to think in a vacuum as well. Like if you're going through a hard time, you have to really break things down and look at things objectively and really break it down into pieces that you can actually manage and not to over— I feel like something we do is sometimes we have all these problems, we have all these problems that we kind of overwhelm. Overwhelm ourselves. So, so yeah, and so for me, like, I've been in a lot of different situations just because, like I said, I've been a real big explorer of life. I've traveled the world. I grew up in Germany. I, I've spent time in China. I've dealt with, you know, a lot of my, uh, my co-founders Indians. I've dealt with Indian culture. I've kind of looked at the world from a very global lens. Um, I'm Costa Rican, so I, for me, like I've had this very, I've had a very explorer sort of mindset from the beginning. So I've tried a lot of things and, you know, some things work, some things don't work. But I don't know, it seems like for some reason or another, like, you can really transmute that energy of failure, quote unquote, into fuel for directing it in something else that may work. I don't know. I think it's, I mean, we all fail. Everyone does fail in something. It's just how you process that and how you move forward.

So, well, I really like that. The more things you try, the more opportunities you will have to succeed, especially if you learn from your quote unquote failures. That is really great. So question number 4, who do you know whom we should know? I know you've already mentioned your mentor. Any other thought leaders? Our audience should be following?

Yeah, well, when it comes to thought leaders, I think whom you should know, I think that's a question that you have to find out for yourself. It's something that really ties to the previous question. It's really, you got to do a lot of introspection and a lot of really being self-critical on the areas, which is objective. Not, you know, about truly what it is that you need to fix to be more of an asset to the world and to be able to contribute to the world. And based off of that, you'll be able to figure out who are the thought leaders that you need to be listening to and dialing into whatever area that is deficient, right? And I don't know what that is. I think it's different for every person. For me personally, personally, like what I enjoy is a lot of philosophy. So, you know, a lot of the the greats. So a lot of people have died already, you know, a lot of the ancients. I like that. But, you know, currently people that are alive, maybe thought leaders that are alive today. Yeah, I don't know. I don't think I follow anyone that's alive right now. I'm big on the, I'm big on the ancients. I don't know. But there's a lot of great people.

I don't know.

You know, maybe Dick Cramliffe, but he's kind of more he's kind of more behind the scenes, you know, he's a chairman, right? He's not— a lot of those companies like NEA, they make sure that their portfolio founders get the press, you know, the VCs, a lot of times they don't need the press, you know, they don't position themselves that way. So I don't know if there's a lot, but actually there's probably some good material that you can watch. There's some interviews and stuff you can watch from him, but Yeah, I guess my biggest is just you got to figure out your own thought leaders that match the areas that you want to grow in.

So, no, I like that. Actually, myself, I've been mentored from a distance by a lot of great thought leaders just by reading their books or listening to their program. And some of them may already be dead, but even with the dead, they still speak to me and help me kind of figure things out, which is pretty amazing. Now, if you could choose 3 people to have dinner with? Who would you choose and why? And it doesn't matter if they are alive now, just from history. 3 people you'd like to have dinner with?

Um, maybe Descartes, um, Seneca, and, uh, probably Aristotle or Marcus Aurelius. One of those guys. I had to pick 3.

You are a great philosopher. That is, that is great. So much wisdom in that. I love that. Number 5, what have you read that we should read? Uh, what's, uh, some of the books you've read recently?

Um, yeah, well, the one that I've been studying— I don't really think I read them too much, I study them a lot— is, uh, Meditations by Marcus Aurelius, which kind of, you know, I think it's a great book for founders particularly, especially if you're planning on growing your company. Perhaps you, you are a leader that, that where your decisions do have a lot of, uh, financial implications, um, look into Marcus Aurelius. I mean, because he was, he was a Roman emperor, so he wasn't just a philosopher, he was a philosopher king. And, uh, it's a different perspective, right? Most philosophers weren't ever that wealthy, so some of them kind of sound like pessimists and nihilists. But someone like Marcus Aurelius is interesting that, you know, he was, you know, the most powerful man in the world, but he was still a very kind guy. So I don't know.

That's nice.

Yeah, take a look. I think you guys would be surprised.

Great. And I just added a link to his book, Meditation, a new translation for just $1 on Kindle, which is a great, great price. So question number 6, what have you done that we should do? What is one action you have taken that has positively impacted your life? Hmm.

Well, There is a lot of different things, but I think the biggest thing is just to truly understand yourself as much as you can, to figure out the role that perhaps contributes the most to your environment, wherever that is, and then, you know, figure out how to grow from there. But I think one way to do it is to not be super like critical in a negative way, but to in an objective way and to to always be open to learning and constructive criticism as well. And you can dish some of it out or, you know, discard it. Some of it you actually implement. But just being honest with yourself and looking at the world as, you know, the, you know, one of the biggest things is just that the future is not decided. No one knows the future yet, you know. I mean, there's so many variables up in the air. It's like a whole, a big chemical reaction. That's what this world is, you know, and you You are your own chemical that you have control over, so you have some control of that chemical reaction. So, you know, move accordingly. You know, I guess that's my biggest piece of advice on that.

Nice. Kind of related to that then, what, what is one action you are thinking about taking you believe will positively impact your life going forward?

Can you repeat that question?

One, uh, one action you are thinking about taking that you believe will positively impact your life? One, one action, one, one thing you, you would like to, to do to improve your life, your, your business going forward?

Mine, or—

yes.

Yeah. So something that I'm working on is just to continue to be more transparent, um, Just in general, I mean, I am a very transparent guy, but sometimes in business, especially when you're an entrepreneur, you're like, "Oh, I don't want people to steal my idea," and stuff like that in the beginning. That's how I was. And I think entrepreneurs are that way, then you realize that that's not the case. But just being more transparent about it. And it's not even about, it's just being about allowing people, kind of giving people the information they need. To make a better decision. And I mean, that's something that's, you know, something you— there's infinite, infinite room for growth. Yeah, I think that's something that I've continued to work on is just to be a better communicator and to just align goal alignment, right? At the end of the day, that's all this is, goal alignment. Just try to figure out what's important to you, what's important to the stakeholders, important customers for a company., and then build the product or service that kind of is the axiom of all that. That's the best thing to do usually.

That is so great. One thing I really truly believe in is the Pareto principle, the 80/20% rule. And I try to spend, you know, 80% of my time on the 20% of those— what you talked about, goal alignment— all those things that are going to get me, right, 80% into the result I am looking for, whereas I think most people, they spend 80% of their time on 80% of activities that keep them busy but doesn't really move them forward in any meaningful way. So I think that is great wisdom. So if you had only one day to live, what would be your final contribution, you think?

That's a good question. So if I were to die tomorrow, what would be my final contribution? Yeah, it'd be interesting just because, I mean, I wouldn't have a problem if I had already fulfilled my mission, but since I haven't, it would be kind of like, you know, premature, um, because, you know, we have a big mission with Pranos and beyond. But, um, you know, as of today, yeah, you know, I think I've affected a lot of people at a smaller level, at a micro level, you know, my community, my family, hopefully inspired some people, but definitely not at the scale that I'm planning on. But yeah, so like I said, it would be a bit premature, right? But I think just overall, I've always liked to think that I've treated people— and I've always liked to listen to people. I'm more of a— I ask a lot of questions. When I'm talking to people. It's when I have conversations, I'm always usually the guy kind of learning more about the other person, and people enjoy that, I think. People enjoy kind of telling people, communicating things that no one else asks them. And that's a huge— really, actually, that's probably an interesting question because that's one of the best ways to build rapport. It's like everyone's always talking about themselves, telling people, telling people, but if you take a different approach kind of inquisitive, people tend to like you more. I mean, I've dealt with so many situations where people are like, I've never gotten that question asked before, you know, because people don't even deep— because people don't— people talk to each other very like superficial layer. But if you get deeper, I think you can build real connection with somebody and really start to see that you two are very similar. And that's, that's really the conclusion you'll get to, but you won't get to that until you actually try to ask real questions, not "How are you doing today?" You know, like really get deep into communication, and I think that's how you build real relationships that last.

Yeah, I think I call this empathetic listening, right? I think Frank Covey was the one who said most people, they ask a question and they listen, and while they're listening, they're actually thinking about the next thing they're gonna say, so they don't even listen to what the response was, right? But he says you really need to listen to understand. Not to respond, but to actually understand what the other person is saying. I think that is so powerful, and so few people do it that when you do, people just think that, wow, I like to be around you. I like you better than most people who just, you know, talk about their own self. Anything else you want to add?

That's very true. That's very, very well put. Um, anything else you want to add? No, I mean, I think, you know, thanks for having me, uh, sir. I mean, I think, uh, It's been fun.

Um, you know, yeah, and thank you so much for being so generous with, with your time. So the very, very final question is, how can we add value to you? What could we do to make a difference?

Um, how you could add value to me, how you could add value to yourself? What was the question again?

Yes, how we can add value to you, me and my audience on LinkedIn? What can we do to make a difference?

Um, you know, you guys could, you know, add me on LinkedIn and say hi. I love— I'm always open to meeting new people and networking. Um, that, that's, that's good enough with me, you know. I think, uh, I'm always happy to chat and meet new people. I think that would be the best.

Well, thanks, thanks again, David. I really appreciate you taking the time today. Thank you for sharing about your leadership journey. I think those who have listened to us, uh, can definitely take a lot of lesson from your experience and be able to apply them and become better leader and achieve a greater level of success. Thank you so much for your time. We appreciate it.

Thanks so much, BZ.

Thank you for listening to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If you like what you heard, please subscribe to our channels and come back for more wisdom nuggets on how you may develop into a better leader and achieve greater levels of success. Leadership is the most critical skill. The world will always need leaders to lead others, deploy the next disruptive technology, or execute a business strategy. You may as well decide on counting yourself among the 21st century leaders. See you right here next time. Time on the Leadership and Success Podcast with Coach BZ.