Episode 28: Live with UB Ciminieri on Leadership and Success

Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If you need to develop into a better leader, this podcast is for you. If you want to achieve a greater level of success, this podcast is for you. His mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell, said it best. Everything rises and falls on leadership. We hope to inspire you today and provide you with an insight that has the potential to positively impact the trajectory of your life. Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast.

Hello everyone, this is Coach Bizzy again. I have a great guest with me today, uh, one of the fellow members of the Thought Technology Council, uh, UB. And thank you so much for being with us today. How are you doing?

I'm good. I am happy to be here. This is an exciting opportunity to get to meet you, fellow Forbes Technology Council member, and kind of share my story. Maybe it'll, maybe it'll help somebody out there. Who knows?

Absolutely. And so you are the chief marketing officer, but also the head of strategic partnership at Interview.ai. Can you tell us a little bit about your leadership journey, how you got to be here? And I've seen that you've been a serial entrepreneur as well, a founder or co-founder of so many organization. Can you tell us about that?

Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's, um, it started probably about, I don't know, let's say early 2000s, um, where, you know, just slowly kind of working my way up through different organizations. But when we moved to Colorado, I really got involved in the technology industry here, and I was, uh, that's how I actually met Joe, who's our CEO, we met, I think, in 2008 volunteering for the Colorado Technology Association. And so we spent many years through that organization just developing the really great friendships and relationships with a lot of people who are leaders here in the technology industry. So I had a great network of people to, to study, if you will, you know, and to learn from. And so, as I was going through my journey and trying to figure out exactly what I wanted to do, there was a point, I think it was actually the year I turned 40, you know, I was, I just kind of got tired of working for somebody else who wasn't supportive of their employees, right? Who was selfishly only concerned about making money. And at that point, Joe and Jacob, fellow co-founder, you know, we— I think we were all reaching that same conclusion that, you know what, we want to be in charge of our own destiny. We want to start something. We want to combine all of our strengths and, and try this thing out. And so that's what we did. And so that was sort of the first big step into not only entrepreneurship, but being a leader. And so we co-founded the first version of the company that we have now. And, and never looked back. And so throughout that, those last 5, 6 years, it's really been about confidence building to start. You know, here we are starting a company, and, you know, we were literally sitting at a, at a whiteboard, um, at a co-working space years ago, and we got our first check, right, for client work, and we were like, okay, how are we gonna spread this out over the next 6 months, right? To pay the 3 of us and do the work that we need to do. So it was a lot of confidence building over the last few years. And then when we decided to launch Interview IA, which was July of 2020, so right in the middle of the pandemic, that transition from being consulting, you know, individual contributors in a sense. I mean, we work together, but but then moving into having to, to have a very specific role within a technology company. So for the three of us and our fourth co-founder, you know, that was moving into these executive roles. And so that was sort of then, that was the next big jump was, was now, okay, now I've got to be more than just an individual contributor. Now we've got to become leaders within this technology organization, which is a very different beast to consulting, a consulting company, right? It's so much more structured and there's so much more need for kind of an overall leadership of direction and mission and vision. And it's so— there was a mindset shift over the last year that needed to take place. And the good news is we were all signed up for it. You know, we knew that this is what we wanted to do. We'd all agreed on that. And we agreed that these were going to be our roles within the organization. So, that wasn't any— that wasn't the question. It was more of learning to do it and learning to become a true leader in what the organization needed. Was, uh, that was a shift that took, that took some time, particularly for me. Like, it was a big mindset shift to, to accept that responsibility and, and to step up and be an actual leader, you know, realizing that, you know, there are certain things that, in certain actions and behaviors and ways that I communicate, that, that might need to, to change a little bit. Because of that new responsibility. So, so it's built it, you know, as I look back now, I mean, it's been a very clear journey to get here. And I've been lucky. I don't know that we could have started our company anywhere else than Denver because of the network of people who have guided us, who've been examples to us over these last 10+ years.

Wow, so a pretty significant portion of my audience are just getting started, right, finishing up college and thinking about what they would like to do. So looking at them and maybe even advising a 20-year-something version of yourself, seeing all of the successes you've had so far, what would you advise them or yourself when you were in your 20s, knowing what you know now?

Oh goodness, that's such a hard question because it's hard because I appreciate all of the experiences and things that I did go through to get to this point. So I definitely wouldn't change anything. I think I would emphasize that opportunity to get to know a lot of different people. In a lot of different roles because I think that defined what kind of leader I wanted to be. It also defined what I wanted to do. So, maybe it's more about being very curious and aware of who you're surrounding yourself with, especially professionally, and taking notice of the types of criteria or skills or personality traits or behaviors or mindset that align with you versus the ones that don't, you know, and take that time to learn from those different people, you know, ask questions, you know, connect with them as often as you can, because that taught me exactly the kind of person that I wanted to be as a leader in a company.

That is very good. So as a tech executive, what does leadership mean to you, especially when you have to interact with direct reports?

Yeah, it's, it's authenticity, right? Like, I, I, I don't want to completely change who I am. I have a very specific skill set, I have a very specific personality and specific behaviors that, um, that are me, that define who I am. So it's not, it's not about losing that, But it's also about leading with your own curiosity and empathy, even more so as a leader, because you want to be able to connect with and get to know everybody else within the organization as much as you can, especially if those people are directly reporting to you. But it's really then pay— it's kind of paying it back, you know, like I was supported. But I was also not supported in a lot of ways. And so I learned from that. So how do I pay it back to these people who are on maybe a similar journey as to what I was doing? And how do we— how do I make sure that they feel safe, that they feel happy, that their passion still aligns with what we're doing, that they feel healthy? Because I learned very early on in my career, I was in a workplace shooting. Incident.

Whoa.

And so that really defined a lot of my focus on creating safe places for people where they feel like they can— they don't have to worry about, you know, whether they're going to leave alive or dead, you know, like that shouldn't be a concern at work. Um, so that was a big push for me early on in my career and why I do this particular type of work. But ultimately, I want everybody to feel safe. Right? And I want them to feel like they're a part of the process, that they're a part of the decision-making, that they're a part of the mission that we're all striving for, that they have a voice here. Because I know I'm not— I'm good at certain things, but I'm not good at everything. And so I'm not gonna— it's not about my voice over everybody else's. It's we're all equally on this team doing this thing together. And so it's leaning into that and realizing and recognizing that that's the only way I think that you can be successful as an organization, especially as a startup.

Yeah. And also you guys kind of started in the middle of the pandemic. That's really when you guys launched. How has that kind of affected the business or kind of set the culture of the organization?

It was actually a very— It made us stronger. It gave us purpose. You know, we were, we had decided at the beginning of 2020, so right before COVID first hit the US, we had decided that we wanted to build this technology company, but we were going to do it in 2021. But as soon as COVID hit and a lot of the consulting work that we were doing really started to slow down, it made sense for us to, lean in and we decided as a team to build this thing last year. And so it was, and it made sense because of the things that the pandemic were changing in terms of work, but also the murder of George Floyd and the social reckoning, the social conversations that needed to happen. We just felt like we were right at the front of this change. In terms of helping companies, you know, better hire, particularly remote or virtually like this, but also better hire from a standpoint of equality, right? Like, how do we ensure that we're not letting our individual biases take over the interview process? How do we make sure that they're not influencing the hiring decision How do we make sure that we're evaluating every candidate equally, that every qualified candidate, no matter who they are, no matter what they look like, they're all getting an equal chance at the job because they're all qualified for the job. And so it really became a driving force for us at the— as the pandemic continued to go to be part of this new future of work. And I think people are feeling it now, you know, with the— because talent candidates are in control. Job seekers are saying, look, I don't like where I used to work. I don't like being in the office. I want more important benefits, more important things like health and wellness, security for my retirement. I don't care about lunch every day, you know, and people are moving away from city centers, right? So they're not even in commuting distance to the office anymore. So it's there's a huge shift and companies are recognizing it, but they're slow to change, to adapt their hiring process to ensure that they're still finding the right people no matter where those people might be.

Yes, that is so great because, because I think I moved to Silicon Valley in 2014. Was it— I think it was around 2015 when the big tech companies started to really track diversity, uh, and it was pretty much too white and too male. Uh, it looks like a great portion of the, of the population was completely, uh, left out, right? And I think they've done a lot of progress since then, especially now. I think we have more and more women in leadership position in companies across Silicon Valley. I don't think we are where we need to be just yet, but there's been a lot of improvement. And I know a company like yours definitely help, uh, with, with that trend of diversity into the technology sector. Can you tell us more about that?

Yeah, absolutely. You know, for us, it's because we, we, um, we started doing bias and empathy training about 3 years ago, uh, one as a part of our consulting services to help hiring managers and interviewers just become better interviewers.

Yes.

But then we expanded to include all employees. And I think what we found was that a lot of DEI initiatives are just that, you know, they're on paper, but they don't really come alive within an organization because it's hard to translate that into action in many cases. You know, they started out as, well, let's just hire a woman onto this team of all white males. But guess what? If you don't have the right culture set up to support that woman, then she will leave. So, it's just a token hire at that point. So, how do you really truly make change? And that became our focus was how do we not only teach this stuff but how do we create a sustainable way for the behaviors of people to actually change? And it was by looking at what people do every day anyway, right? We all interview. And so how do we change that particular process for the better? And how do we then support everybody, everybody who interviews to, you know, every time they interview, they get better and they get better because I think it's also overwhelming for people when there's sort of this expectation to change overnight, you know, to, well, I have to know all my biases and I know how, I know I have to know how to how to be better after this one training. That's not sustainable. We're human. So how do we create ways in something that we're already doing, like interviewing, to support that behavioral change and that learning every time you do that thing? And so that's our focus. And I think that's where we can start to really see diversity numbers increase because now you're not letting a previous system that would not give people of color or underrepresented groups of people or people with disabilities a chance in the interview process. Either you had an AI system that would automatically, you know, kick them out, or you had interviewers who were letting their biases, you know, screen those people out of the process. Yes, because they weren't comfortable looking at someone who didn't look like them, right? So how do we fix that and give everybody an equal opportunity? One, so that then the interviewers feel more confident, like, okay, we're actually hiring the right person because we're looking for the right person.

Yes.

Doesn't matter everything, all the other stuff that shouldn't matter doesn't matter. It's really, can they do the job and do they have the same passion that we do as a team to get this thing done? And, you know, You know, can they grow with us? Can they be here for a while? So it's about supporting with technology a process that often gets overrun by bias, but can slowly change over to be more equitable with just a little bit of structure, a little bit of training, and then constantly improving those behaviors over time. Is really our focus specifically in interviewing.

That is fantastic. It's really music to my ear. I think it's definitely about time. So you and I, we are both, like we mentioned earlier, on the Forbes Technology Council. How has been your journey to the council and what do you like about it?

Yeah, you know, it was, it kind of felt right, you know, at the time. I, you know, I felt confident enough through my leadership journey to apply and to say, you know what, I think we do have some things that we could offer to this community. So it was just a, you know, a confidence thing and got accepted. And yeah, it's really, it's cool. It's just a great place to continue to build that confidence, right? But, and again, to meet people who are on a very similar journey or at a similar point in their leadership journey. To get to share with and, you know, and get to know and learn from. So that's— it's been great to be a part of this. I'm trying to get more and more involved with the community, with sharing, you know, it's hard to write. I mean, I don't know how authors do it. I guess they get paid to do it, right? But it's— so I'm trying to write more. You know, not because I— I don't know, I think I have a unique perspective that I'd like to share. And so, um, so yeah, so it's great. How about you? What— how do you feel about it?

Yeah, no, I think it is, it is really good. I think probably the biggest benefit for me is just the networking, right? Getting to meet cool guys like, like you, uh, C-level executive across the board. Actually, it's a worldwide organization, right? It's not just in the US. And sometimes you have a problem, you just want to kind of get another perspective on it. And always people out there to help with, like, you know, I don't know, it's probably thousands of years of experience if you put all of us together there. Right. It's really amazing. And of course, you mentioned the opportunity to write as well and think about problem from your unique perspective and add value. Yeah, I think it's really been a great positive influence for sure. Absolutely.

Yeah, but what's interesting, because there are different groups, right? There's different Forbes groups. And when I was exploring, because there are, I think, human resource— there's a Human Resources Council. And technology just made sense for us, one, because we are a technology company, but also the perspective I bring is, and I think that many people bring, is not necessarily just technology-based. And so I think that's important because I am a true believer that technology can help and support us be better as human beings. And so that's why I appreciate the community in there. They're not just all tech-specific people, right? They all come from different backgrounds and perspectives. Our— the thing that binds us is technology and our belief in technology. But technology can be used in so many ways. So that's what I appreciate. And, you know, if you if anybody's out there, if you're considering applying, think about that when you're looking at the different councils, because while one may seem like a fit, there might be a better fit with another one.

Absolutely. So that's the, uh, part in our show where we go through my 7 favorite questions. So question number 1 would be, what is the greatest lesson you have learned?

So that is probably to believe in myself, to know that, you know what, I've had this kind of experience in my life. And I know what I'm talking about in some cases. And so, to believe that, right, and trust that, and to lead with that because oftentimes, I think a lot of us get pushed back or told, no, that's not going to work. Or, you know, we get micromanaged so much because the other person absolutely has no trust in what we're doing. You know, that becomes very tiresome. And you learn— I just learned that, you know what, I've made it this far.

Nice.

And so I know I can do it. And I think that's been the biggest thing to learn for me.

Well, that is so great. Earlier you also talked about the transition by being an individual contributor to becoming a tech executive. I think there is a mindset to success and leadership and definitely self-confidence and believing in yourself that you can definitely add value. That has a lot to do with it. So what do you think then is the secret of your success?

I mean, for me, it's honestly, it's the the team of people around me, because what they did is they recognized and acknowledged exactly what I'm good at and what I'm not good at, and they supported me and gave me that freedom to do what I'm good at. You know, and then the expectation— I mean, sure, you know, there's times where I need to step out of my comfort zone a little bit and learn, But at the end of the day, I'm here because they know that I can do this thing really well. And so they support me to go do that. And that, I think that's the most important thing from a success standpoint, is to be surrounded by those people who absolutely recognize what you're good at and let you go do that and support you to do that. Because I think, you know, teams get in trouble when they're expecting more of of, of, you know, other team members when that's not their strength.

Yes.

You know, and, and so why not lean in on everybody's strengths and let them go do that? Yeah.

Yes, actually I have a, um, mentor who really taught me this, right? Don't worry too much about your weaknesses, but kind of shine from your strength because that's kind of what differentiates you from everybody else, right? Uh, like I was even looking at joining a couple of, of boards like on a board of directors, they don't want everybody to have the same skills. They're gonna need you because of the specific unique skill and strengths that you, you bring to the table that nobody else can do just as, as good as you. That is very important. So, uh, question number 2: so what are you learning now?

Uh, so now I'm learning about, um, I'm learning about how to sell and connect with almost like a consumer audience because of the— what we're selling. Our focus is on people who interview, and that could be anybody. So it's— for me, it's about using my experience to learn how to build a community of users around that, right? And how to, how to make sure that they're connected and engaged with each other and that they're driving driving us forward, not only as a company, but helping drive our mission forward because they're the true meat of the success of what we're trying to do. So that's where I'm at now. I was trying to figure that out because it's— there's, you know, they talk about B2B or B2C, but now there's B2P, which is kind of business professional, right? Everybody's working at home. And so we've got to support people at home with technology now. And so professional or end user is, it's sort of a shift in mentality of how we, you know, market and sell to our customers, to, you know, to people out there. So that's what we're learning now.

Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing, Yubi. I think when I look at your leadership journey, many, many times you had to adapt, right? Things are changing in the market and you're like, I have to get new skill or change the way you used to do things. And I really appreciate that so much. So for question number 3, how has failure shaped your life?

That, that's probably one of the most important things. I think it's, it's forced me to obviously confront weaknesses, but it's also, you know, it's, it It's kind of woken me up to the fact that I was— maybe that's not the part of the journey I should have.

This has never happened before, like this. Sorry for that. I'm gonna edit out this portion. But yeah, you were talking about how failure shaped your life.

So yeah, so, you know, failure, that's a good question. I think For me, failure, one, has forced me to find the solution myself, right? You know, this— to not expect somebody else to fix the problem. So that, I think that was very important part of the lesson of failure, but also to recognize that I wouldn't have gotten to where I am today without those failures. You know, it's, it's too— you have to accept that, right? It's— I think you can look at failures in two ways. One is you can say, well, woe is me, you know, why does this always happen to me? Why do I always fail? Or you can say, you know, this, this, this is happening and teaching me something, and, and I, I need to overcome it. And it's— I wouldn't want to change it because it's making me better. So it's really forced me to just make sure that I'm in the right mindset to understand how this particular failure can help me.

Wow, that is pretty deep because I know most people, they look at your life and all of the successes you've had, right? They think you've never failed and you've always been on the up and up, but Failure can be a great teacher. So, for number 4, who do you know that we should know? Who are some of your mentors or thought leaders you are following now?

Yeah, that's a great question. Boy, well, I will say, so there's an author, his name is Todd Rose, and he's really been influential in the work that we're doing now. He wrote the book called The End of Average, you know, which really forces us to take a look at how we're evaluating everything— people, ideas— because in the past, all of our processes, if you think about it, have been based on the average, you know, like comparing everybody to the average, when in reality the average doesn't actually exist, you know, if we're talking about people. The average person doesn't exist. So how can we compare everybody to that? And so that's been a bit— that's been Todd Rose's book, and we've talked to him a few times, has been really influential in how we think about our company and our mission. So I would say, you know, I think that's— he's probably the most important, or what he's written is probably one of the most important things that people can think about or read about to understand how they can look at a lot of different things and really accept the fact that, you know what, we are really all truly unique, and we have to create our processes and structure our processes to be aware of that and to take that into account and to accept that and to stop trying to group people into these, these like boxes. Um, that's not going to work, and people demand to be treated, you know, individually. Yeah, that's probably the biggest one I could— I can talk about.

That is quite powerful, especially with the newest generation, right? Generation, uh, I don't know, Y and Z, Millennial. Yes, definitely. The workplace is changing a lot. Uh, wow. So that brings us to, um, the next Question number 5: What have you read that we should read? What are some of your favorite books?

You know, that's an interesting question for me because I love to read, but it's not— I would say The End of Average because that one was really, again, it was powerful and influential. I mean, I like to read sci-fi books and things like that. But I also, for me, I learn more from not necessarily reading, but from different types of media, whether it's podcasts or documentaries and things like that. Those are more powerful to me, but I do love to read. And it's mostly sci-fi stuff, but to help the audience, I think, again, I really go back to The End of Average. It's a great book to open your eyes to and how a lot of things have been structured.

Yeah. And I'm going to be adding a link to that book in the comments. And which one is one of your favorite podcasts?

Boy, I— man, there's so many. I don't know. I don't have like a— I like the ones like Neil deGrasse Tyson's podcast. You know, that, that's, uh, I just like looking, learning more about the universe, you know, and the how the universe is perceived. So yeah, I would recommend that, that one.

Wow, thank you. So we are almost out of time. Just a couple of quick questions for you. Number 6: What have you done that we should do? What is one action you have taken that has positively impacted your life?

Travel. Travel different places, meet different people, learn different cultures, eat different food. I would just recommend that. That's something I've done my whole life and I've been lucky. I recognize, you know, how lucky that is to be able to do that. But if you can make it happen, travel to different places, you know, get out of your bubble. And kind of go and just see how the rest of the world works because it's very eye-opening.

That is fantastic, especially in this country, right? Once you are a US citizen, you pretty much have a passport to the world. And I've met a few people who've never been more than like a couple of hundred miles from wherever they were born, which is kind of sad. With, uh, even just within the, uh, the US, there is so much diversity and so much you can learn by just traveling. Uh, wow, that is wonderful. Now, uh, one question I have for you is, uh, if you had one and only one day to live, what would you have liked your final contribution to be?

That is a heavy question. Um, Boy, I mean, I think— hmm, I, uh, wow, I don't know. I mean, I think, um, you know, it maybe it's, it's finding, um, some place to step in where my skills are needed, just even if it's just for a day, you know, like I do some work in the space industry, and so to kind of— to be able to impact helping us get to Mars or, or to the moon again, you know, or into space more, you know, that would be— that would be fascinating. Whether it's, you know, being on a ship and hitting the right button at the right time to get us into space, I don't know, something— something like that would be just to help push forward that journey for humanity even more.

Wow, that is quite fascinating. And what's really great is a lot of things that used to be science fiction, and you read a lot of science fiction, are really becoming reality today. It's just unbelievable what a world we live in. We only have a couple of minutes left. Thank you so much. You've been very generous with your time. The final question is, how can we add value back to you? What could we do to make a difference?

You know, I think for us, it's we need users, we need people to trust our process and to give it a chance in order to see the change that we're trying to make. And so, you know, selfishly, it's come try us out. We have a free version of our platform for anybody who does interviews. If they want to just find a way to interview better, just a little bit better, to feel better about interviewing and to feel better about their hiring decisions, come check us out. You know, it's, we just, we need, we need people to come in and use the system and, you know, kick the tires, so to speak, and help us make it better and better over time. So that's it, you know, just come, yeah, you know, and contribute to this conversation about talent and helping people find meaningful work. And how do we, how do we really pressure companies to do better? Because it's really, it's less about making candidates play a game to get hired. It's more about helping companies really truly realize a better way of hiring that's unique to them, right? Every, every company has their own unique DNA. So we shouldn't be trying to hire people who don't fit that. But we need to first define what that is. Why are people happy and successful at our company? So it's about companies taking that opportunity, taking that chance to, to define what they really are looking for and then, and then treating everybody equally in the process of doing that.

Wow. Thank you so much for enlightening us. It was very insightful and I really like what your company is doing to really change the way we hire. And make work more diverse and equitable. I think that is definitely something that is worth doing. Thank you so much for, for your time, and for everybody else, until next time, thanks so much for listening to the Leadership and Success Podcast.

Thank you for listening to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If you like what you heard, please subscribe to our channel and come back for more wisdom nuggets on how you may develop into a better leader and achieve greater levels of success. Leadership is the most critical skill. The world will always need leaders to lead others, deploy the next disruptive technology, or execute a business strategy. You may as well decide on counting yourself among the 21st century leaders. See you right here next time on the Leadership and Success Podcast. Podcast with Coach BZ.