S4:37 🎙️ LIVE with Dr. Peter W. Singer

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So I'm Peter W. Singer, a professor of practice here at Arizona State. I'm also an author of multiple books on changes in technology, national security, and I'm also a strategist at New America, a think tank in Washington, D.C. that's a partner of ASU. So I've always been interested in two areas. One is politics and history, and secondly, I've always been interested in the cross between technology and science fiction and science fiction becoming real. The books that I've been writing explore these issues of change, changes in everything from new technologies like robotics, changes in new types of threats like cybersecurity, changes in warfare to even changes in the types of online activities and threat issues that are emerging in great importance, but we don't have a really good handle on. That's what I've been naturally drawn to. So if you think of the idea of cyber war, which we've all grown, you know, a bit comfortable with talking about over the last decade plus, it's the idea of hacking, um, networks. But cyberwar has an evil twin, so to speak. And we called that likewar. And it's the idea of not hacking the network, but hacking the people on social networks by driving ideas viral through their likes, their shares, but also, of course, sometimes lies. And we see this play out in episodes that range from the rise of ISIS to the rise of Donald Trump to— it can have positive effects. We think of all sorts of activist movements. It's used in marketing. It's used by celebrities. And so myself and a young researcher named Emerson Brooking, we started on that project— gosh, I'm going to say, I think 2013 period. And essentially, we started out trying to understand how social media was being used in war zones. Instead of focusing on what we need to learn, We've instead fed on hype that fuels fears but doesn't solve problems. Understanding the difference between hackers doing something annoying and something with the capacity to cause serious harm will better direct our fears and resources. If you think of the idea of cyberwar, it's the idea of hacking networks, but at the end of the day, it's really about human vulnerabilities—psyches, beliefs, trust. Dr. Singer emphasizes clarity over alarmism in cybersecurity. A stance still vital today. He reminds us that cyber and information warfare aren't just technical, they're profoundly human, affecting what people think and trust.

All right, everyone, this is Coach Bizzy. Thank you so much for being here with me. I am so excited that you are here with us live on LinkedIn and on YouTube as well. So first of all, if you have a question for me and my guest, please type it in the comment section. And while While we are going through the broadcast today, if you have aha moment or insight, I would appreciate it if you type it in the comment as well. And also, if you know someone in your circle of influence who might benefit from this episode, what we're gonna be talking about today, please make sure to tag them along. So like, engage, and let us know that you are there. So today, You're gonna be joining me for a very powerful conversation with one of the most influential voices in national security, military innovation, and future of warfare and strategy. I'm talking about Dr. P.W. Singer. So Dr. Singer is a New York Times bestselling author, the premier futurist in the national security environment according to the Wall Street Journal, but he's also the mind behind Cybersecurity and Warfare. And this book definitely changed my life. It was a required reading when I first became an information warfare officer, a qualified information warfare officer. So he's the author of Ghost Fleet, Burning, Like War, and he's advised White House, the DOD, tech giants, and he's also shaped the professional reading list of information warfare officers across the US Navy, like I said, myself included. So he has been named by Smithsonian Institution as one of the nation's 100 leading innovators, by Defense News as one of the 100 most influential people in defense issues, and by Foreign Policy to their top 100 global thinkers. So as an official mad scientist also for the US Army Training and Doctrine Command. So with no further ado, let me bring in the one and only Dr. P.W. Singer. How are you doing, sir?

I'm doing great today, and I really appreciate that kind intro.

Fantastic. No, we are so, so very, very glad you are here. I know quite a few people from my community information Warfare community in the Navy, uh, follow me on this podcast, and they are so delighted for you to be here. So to get started, maybe you can tell us a little bit about your leadership journey.

Oh wow, um, that's a really great question, sort of self-introspection. Uh, so, um, I, I— my journey, I guess, as a, as a leader, as a writer, I consultant and now running a business of my own has always been shaped by, I think, a combination of two things. One, the idea of what Wayne Gretzky described, skating to where the puck is headed. And the other is trying to find your passion and sticking with it. So in terms of the projects that I've worked on, whether it was my very first book that was looking at the rise private military companies, to then a journey that took into fields of cybersecurity and information warfare that you talked about, to more recently work looking at future warfare trends, future technology trends, and also the, the power of narrative to help us better understand the real world. It's always been about not just what is important today, but what's going to be important tomorrow. Maybe also, you know, sometimes you see this in your own kids being drawn towards topics where other people say no, or other people are paying attention to it, or that's not going to be important. Well, I'll show you. And, you know, so again, I think that's an aspect that connects to it. But the other is, as I mentioned, you know, it's cliché, but your passion. If you're going to be working on a topic, working on a project, building a business, building an organization, you better be interested in it. That's what gets you through those long hours. That's what gives you the stick-to-itiveness. And so, you know, I've tried to go after topics that I'm intrinsically interested in, that I want to spend time on, not just because I'm forced to do it, not just because someone ordered me to do it or someone else thought it would be interesting, important, but because I did. So I guess that's the those are the two aspects that really stand out about my own journey when I think about it.

Wow, that's really fascinating. So what is one thing about you that most people may not know about?

Hmm. In terms of the sort of the public-facing side, probably people don't know how absurdly obsessed I am with sports. And, you know, you and I could spend multiple hours talking about the last NBA season or the upcoming NFL season. And I have very, very strong opinions about everything. That's, you know, for— and I guess, you know, the leadership aspect of that is, one, if you work in, you know, a specialized topic, a complex topic, you know, like AI, you still have to be able to connect to people outside. You often— I find myself explaining issues through references to other fields. And it might be, you know, if people have read my books, it might be references to history, a lot to pop culture, but also, you know, parallels to sports. You know, just a couple of weeks ago, I was explaining something going on with AI and how the military was thinking about it by paralleling it to like a quarterback on the football field. And that allows you to draw people in. But the other part of it, of course, is you know, we're not machines, and you've got to have some of that downtime. You've got to have that time where you, um, pursue some other passion, some other interests. That's what makes you better at your job. Uh, you know, I'm, I'm terrible at my work-life balance, but, um, that's that aspect, you know. When I— when, um, people ask me, uh, you know, what are you reading, or, um, you know, what are you watching, um, it's great to always recommend something in your field, but You know what? It's great to also recommend something that you enjoyed. And so, yeah, hopefully that's one of the leadership aspects that draw from it.

Absolutely. That is so fascinating. I also remember a speech you made, a talk at Google. I think it was 11 or 12 years ago. Something interesting you did there I've never seen a speaker do before. You were actually playing some random images on the screen while you were talking about the subject, I think it was about cybersecurity and cyber warfare, but you were saying that it would actually help people retain more of what you are talking about, which is really cool how you bring all of those subjects kind of together, psychology, learning, education, and all of that with your expertise.

So, okay, the first thing I want to jump on that though, it's a really interesting point to talk about on the leadership side, which is the challenge that we all have as leaders often is not having the right idea, not having the facts at hand, but it's, um, how do we, uh, communicate them in a manner that doesn't just explain but also gains and retains the attention of our target audience. And, um, we fail to factor in a couple things. One is that we are always in competition. Um, we're in competition with all the other alternative ideas that are out there. But also we're in competition for mind space, media space, your audience, whether it's you're speaking to, you know, an auditorium full of people or you're trying to persuade your boss, a senior leader, whether they're a business leader or they're a member of Congress, they're a general. You're trying to persuade them about the project, you are battling with the 26 other decisions they have to make that day, the 26 other meetings they've got that day, the 100+ emails that are in their inbox. And so if you're going to break through the noise, you've got to figure out a way to do it. And one is to go back to some of the best tools that we have, which is how do we engage the human brain? And, you know, that's with visual, but that's also with the narrative side of things. You know, if I force you to read an academic article or a PowerPoint with bullet points on it, one part of your brain is lighting up. If I can turn that into a story, I can frame that in a story— doesn't mean always made up, it can be a true story— but basically, if I can build a narrative around it, four parts of your brain are going to light up. You can't help yourself. And so let's, as leaders, take advantage of that. Let's be strategic in how we use narrative.

Wow, that is, that is very, very powerful. I think, especially for the junior officer and aspiring high-tech leader out there, I think this is worth the price of admission, right? Right there. One thing I really love about leadership is it is kind of simple. Now, it's not simplistic, but it is simple. And if you put it into effect, you really get the impact of it. It's not as complicated as many, many, many people what people think, but it's just taking the time to pause, to think, to reflect, and then most importantly, taking action. And I am hoping that, you know, I, I write Leadership Devotion almost every day, and I do this podcast, and what I'm hoping is for those future leaders, especially in the military, that they get more tools and, and ways of thinking a little bit differently, but, but really even thinking outside of the box sometimes to try to come up with some solution for some of the most complex problems we have today. Definitely life today is so much more complex than it's ever been on planet Earth, I think, and it's just getting more and more complex. So we really need that. So the first question I have for you, Dr. Singer, is you've written extensively about the future of war and emerging technology. What initially drew you to the intersection of strategy, storytelling, and security?

So while a lot of my work has been forward-looking, as you kindly referenced, How I got into this is from the history side of things. Uh, come from a military family. Uh, you know, some of my earliest, most enjoyable moments is sitting in my grandfather's study and pulling the books off the wall that he had. Uh, so he was a Navy captain, served in World War II and Korea. Um, and you know, that's what I immersed myself in as a young kid.. And I think that, that shaped me on my journey moving forward. Um, and then, you know, I've, I've always been fascinated by the topic, the history, but also, um, as you hit, uh, what are the aspects of it that are changing? What are the new forces, the new technologies, uh, the new actors that are, um, creating that idea that, you know, history doesn't repeat but it does rhyme? Okay, so what is making it rhyme, but also, you know, not repeat. And I think that's a thread that's gone through a lot of my work, whether it's, you know, new domains like information warfare, cybersecurity, to new technologies and warfare— AI, drones, uncrewed systems— to trying to think about the effect that it would have in future conflicts. That, um, you know, if we're concerned about a great power conflict with, say, a China, with a Russia. Um, what are the aspects that might be similar to what we've seen in World War I, World War II? How might it be different? Uh, so yeah, that history side is often the baseline of how I'm going at that future part. And, you know, it hits something that, that you referenced earlier, um, in terms of, uh, the need for innovation, the need for, as you put it, you know, out-of-the-box thinking. One aspect that we often ignore is that to be good at out-of-the-box thinking, to be— and when I say good, to be effective in a manner that doesn't just come up with zany ideas but deploys real actual capability— to deliver effective out-of-the-box thinking, you have to know the box, right? And so it's to say, if you're thinking about that idea of whether you are a young officer or you're, um, at a company, uh, offering something to, you know, whether it's consumer goods or offering it to the Pentagon, um, you're going to be most effective if you know your craft, if you know the field, if you know the market, if you know the doctrine, then can bring in that innovation side. If you're just saying, um, I'm so much better because I've got no background in it and I don't know anything about it, um, great, you're bringing a new perspective, but you're also going to be bringing in, bluntly, a lot of vaporware, ideas that don't deliver, technology that doesn't actually deliver capability. And so that's something that I think is really important to think about right now, where again, I'm not poo-pahing, I'm not saying innovation, new thinking isn't good. I mean, that's my background, but it has to be grounded.

Wow, that is powerful. Innovation has to be grounded. Again, what I love about this are those universal leadership principles that apply anywhere, whether you are in the military like I am or in high tech, which are the two fields right now, initiatives I am really focused on. So back to this book here, which is part again of the official Navy reading list, really ahead of its time. I think it was 11 years ago you and Alan Friedman wrote this book. For information warfare officers and specialists who are listening right now, What is one thing you really would like for them to learn from it? What is the most important message out of this critical book? Wow.

Um, so that, that book, uh, Cybersecurity and Cyberwar, was intended as a primer on the topic. And I think the, the big takeaway was this, um, need to be multidisciplinary even on a topic like cybersecurity. The gap that we saw, and I think still continues today, is you had folks working the technical side of things that had a good understanding of the technology but needed to have a better understanding of the organizational, the business side, the policy, political side, the legal, ethical side. In order to be effective. You could have the best tools, but if there was— if it wasn't going to be implemented because it was against a certain actor or business interests, or hey, there's some legal privacy questions involved in it, or understanding that this is not just a technical space as you live and work in, it's an adversarial space. So I don't just have to solve the technical problem, I face an enemy who's always learning and reacting. And so there was that aspect of it, but then there was the flip side. The people working on the business side, the policy side, the legal side needed to have a better understanding of that technical. Hey, this policy idea is not going to be successful because it doesn't reflect the reality of how the network works or how it can work, or this is a wonderful sounding argument, argument for a legal policy or an arms control, but how are you going to actually implement it if we don't have the underlying infrastructure? And so it's that idea of cybersecurity is this fascinating, you know, it's a domain, but it's a human-created domain. It's technical, but it is shaped by all of those human factors. And so if you're going to be successful in it, you've got to be bringing in both parts.

Wow, that is, that is so important. And, uh, what do you see then as the defining features for the next major conflict? You have cyber, AI, space, or something we are not talking about enough?

So for thinking about the next major conflict, um, uh, and, you know, the, the great feared one of with a, um, a large power like a Russia, like a China, um, something we explored in a book called Ghost Fleet, uh, which is a— we call it a useful fiction. It was a mashup of novel, um, what might— oh, there's the COVID of it. Um, uh, so it envisioned what a war between the United States and China and Russia could look like, but it was, um, had 28 pages of research and notes. So it was designed to share, uh, real-world trends, technologies, um, doctrine, uh, even some of the quotes that characters say are drawn from the real world. And, um, I think there's, you know, several aspects of it that stand out right now. One is the United States has been in a position for, you know, your and my lifetime where we have been a dominant power. And we, even when we refer to China, and some people still do now, you know, a rising power— no, they are up here. They have incredible capability in some areas, maybe even better capability. Or history tells us that if you bring in a more effective doctrine You know, you can have less of a certain weapon system, but you can still achieve success. There are different kind of competitor though than during the Cold War with the Soviet Union or even during World War II, and that I— the way the global market has changed, we have these supply chains that are meshed together, and that brings consequence to, you know, everything from how you would mobilize in a war to of course, cyber vulnerabilities. We have other factors going on, massive revolutionary technological change happening all around us, particularly in terms of AI and robotics. And those are creating a world where many of the apex predators, so to speak, are now the prey. And think about that in terms of whether it's, um, the United States military, uh, you know, dominant to looking around and going, hold it, am I now the hunted? To large corporations, whether it's, um, large corporations and overall business, um, you know, once dominant corporations to think about even within the defense industry that are looking around and going, I've been at the top of this field Am I not just being displaced, but maybe could I go out of business? Uh, certain weapon systems that have been dominant, um, we could have a great argument, and we're seeing those kind of arguments on, um, dominant weapon systems like, uh, the tank, the aircraft carrier, the manned bomber, whatever it is. They're also starting to look around and go, hold it, I'm now the hunted. You think of, for example, what's happening in Ukraine. I think those are crucial factors. Another aspect related to this technology is they have incredibly low barriers to entry. So it's not like the nuclear weapon or Manhattan Project where, you know, only at the start, only one nation could bring it all together. If we're talking about AI, if we're talking about drones, It's not just big, small nation states. It's corporations, even down to individuals. And that also means they're now coming in numbers that are very different. Orders of magnitude are what matter now. If we're talking about everything from, you know, AI and large language models to you're worried about drone strikes, whether in Ukraine or you're in the US military. Worrying about a scenario in the Pacific. It's not onesies and twosies, it's ones and two ten-thousands or hundred-thousands. And oh, by the way, very same phenomenon working in a business. You know, how am I thinking about the effect of AI? How am I thinking about the effect of robotics? It's not, am I going to have one AI? Am I going to replace one employee? Or am I going to use one robotic system? It's that quantitative side, the orders of magnitude side, that creates all this disruption.

Wow, that is quite fascinating. So the concept of warfare definitely evolved even the last 10 years or so. So what should the US military and our allies prepare for in the next warfare?

Um, I think, uh, we have to be open. A couple of things. One, don't have our blinders up to changes that are happening in other conflicts. So you see, for example, over the last couple of years, a— hold it, drones can be a threat. We could use it more effectively. Other actors could use them more effectively. Look, this was out in the open, not just for years, but for decades. The first small drone used in conflict by a non-state actor was back in the mid-2000s in the conflict in Lebanon. They were used against U.S. forces in Iraq and Syria by ISIS. Why is it taking now, the year 2025, to go, hold it, we need to better protect our units against this threat, or hold it, we ought to be equipping our units with it? So I think there is a, you know, we'll call it a sunk cost phenomena. Of, um, well, we've put so much investment into System Approach X, Doctrine, uh, Y, um, and, you know, the danger with sunk costs is, you know, they don't deliver for you. It, it, you just keep plowing, you know, uh, just because you've spent a lot on something doesn't mean you should spend a lot on it in the future. I think letting go of that is a big challenge for us. Um, so that combination of looking at other nations' experiences and trying to learn from them rather than, you know, losing on the battlefield ourselves. And then secondly, escaping from the sunk cost phenomena, um, I think are two crucial areas for us. Um, the final is to, um, uh, understand that we're only scraping the surface of what think of as a multi-domain conflict. Um, so the Army, for example, has training on multi-domain operations, MDO, and all the, you know, each service have different phrases for it. But it's, um, so far we're still sort of talking about it and thinking about it in terms of, um, there's a cyber domain, there's the air domain, there's, um, space domain, etc. Okay, let's get better at that domain. Let's create a service for it. Let's build up capacity for it. That's the, you know, elementary, junior high school version of it. Yes. What really, uh, the, the, the graduate school version of master is more about cross-domain. So how can my action in one domain affect another? And to recognize that the, um, the math is different. So, uh, a small— for example, you know, out of your career area, area. A small tactical cyber action can have a strategic effect in the space domain or the land or air domain. Um, oh, by the way, it might not just be a direct— it might be I have an effect on the space domain such that then that has an effect on the land domain. Yes. And then finally, the math is different in terms of the timeline. It's not— it may be that small tactical action has that effect 10 hours later, 10 months later. That's the part that's really complicated and to master. It's, you know, for the sci-fi fans watching, it's— we're moving into three-dimensional chess from Star Trek. And I don't think we've really come to grips with that. It's because it's, um, it really leads to changes and, you know, again, everything from doctrine to training, you know, that, that young Army officer could be the one that wins the naval fight. Hmm. And they may win it not by, um, affecting something happening the next hill over, which has been the way that young captain's been trained. It may be, um, they affect a hill 1,000 kilometers away, and this— the missile battery on that hill is crucial to the naval battle another 1,000 kilometers away.

Yes. Wow, what an interesting world we live in. You, you, you mentioned science fiction, uh, so I guess you are pioneer of a genre of useful fiction. Uh, I guess let's have this— I'm gonna ask you, I think it's a fun question for to end this segment before we move to the second segment of the show, but what do you say to skeptics who see fiction as too imaginative for strategic planning? I'm sure some of the old guards, especially in the Navy, because we tend to be defiant, that's our culture, may have not really liked a lot of the things you said earlier, even 10, 12 years ago, but now a lot of it is becoming true in front of us. So what is your response to skeptics?

Yeah, so I think that, you know, that's the difference between, regular fiction, science fiction, versus what we call useful fiction, is useful fiction is always starting out with the non-fiction side of things, the research, the doctrine. Um, it's always grounded. Um, uh, so for example, in Ghost Fleet, every single one of the technologies in it, um, already existed. We had, unlike a lot of, um, different planning and even wargaming. We had the no vaporware rule. You know, the technology either had to already exist or already be at the prototype stage. The cyber attacks that are in it, we didn't just go clickety-clack, they're in. It had to reflect a kind of cyber attack that had already happened. In some cases, something that we had done to someone else, and then we would have our blinders up. Of course, no one would do that back to us. Well, yes, they would. So that's the key is you always have that research grounding in useful fiction, and that's what makes it useful and avoids being so ungrounded, so speculative. And then the other is it's— there's a sense of mission. You know, again, the goal for it isn't always to predict. It might be the opposite. It might be to warn and prevent. So for example, there are certain things that happen in Ghost Fleet that will not come true because of the book. Someone read it, "Ooh, I don't like that scene. What are we going to do to keep that from coming true?" And we— and so we've continued on in the work for useful fiction, including for parts of the U.S. military. You know, sometimes the intent, the strategic side of that useful fiction is to explain, uh, here's how a certain technology works. Uh, here other times the intent might be to, um, help push forward an idea. Um, here is a proposal, here's a strategy, here's a doctrine, here's what we could achieve, here's a future to aim for. I like it, I want it to come true. What am I going to do to have that come true? Or it could be, as we talked about before, to warn. If we don't change, these are the bad things that will happen. This is the world as it might look. I don't like that world. I want to work backwards from it. So again, the idea, maybe sort of the difference of fiction from useful fiction, is the realism in terms of the underlying research. And secondly, there is always a strategic intent to it.

Wow. Okay. We are now going to switch over to the second half of the podcast. Before we do, was there anything you wanted to share? No, this is a very good conversation. Thank you. All right. So the first section of this is when I ask you about the secret of your success. What do you think it is? Why are you so successful?

These are, these are tough questions you ask. Um, I think it's a couple of things. Um, one, uh, a passion for the topic that I work on. Secondly, um, being willing to look at topics and issues from alternative perspectives than just my own. I like to turn, you know, how am I looking at it, but how might the, the market look at it? How might an adversary, how might a competitor look at it? I'm constantly— in our field we call it red teaming, um, and that allows you to identify problems, gaps with whatever it's working on. So it might be a business proposal— what is already out there, what would, um, the potential buyer say is wrong with this project? To, um, if you're writing, uh, a— whether it's a book or an article What might a mean reviewer say about it? We run these training workshops for both business leaders and military officers on using strategic narrative skills. And one of the elements of it is a period where they're developing what you would call elevator pitches, short versions of a proposal or project that they want to sell. They've got a limited amount of time to do it. We set them up with partners. And one of the— we— the advice that we give to the partner is, um, the worst kind of feedback that you can give to someone is, "It's great." Nothing. So, so that aspect of looking at, um, different, uh, from different perspectives, including, you know, red teaming, I think is valuable. Um, another aspect, um, and something I constantly battle with myself on is, um, attention to detail. I'm very get down in the details of issues because that can be the difference between success and failure if you don't get that one detail correct. That said, the tension for me is that macro versus micromanagement side of things, and I'm trying not to get bogged down in it. So I'm a little bit right now like that, the physician heal thyself, the doctor saying, don't do that, and then you see him outside smoking. That's me on micromanagement and details, but I will lean towards more, let's get not just the macro but the details right, because going back to the red team side, that one little part that can be wrong is going to cause rejection. So let's make sure it's really refined before we push it out there.

Wow, that is quite insightful. What do you think is the best or the greatest leadership advice you have ever received?

I think the best was not advice, but watching leaders that I respected, how they did, how they went about their day, how they interacted with folks. So as an example, One of the— a boss I had way back in the day when I worked at the Pentagon, I remember, you know, I was by far the most junior person in the office, but he made a point and I noticed it. I kind of tracked it. Each day he'd walk the cubicles, he'd walk the halls, you know, the alley between the different cubicles. Stay in his office. He'd walk and he'd interact with people, um, and it was short, right? It sometimes it might even be, you know, a 15-second interactions. Other times it might be— it might lead to a longer conversation. Um, it's a little bit parallel, I think, to, you know, your career on the Navy side. Um, you, uh, you know, command of the ship doesn't just mean staying on the bridge. Um, and so, uh, that's always stuck with me, observing him doing that. It was his way of both taking the pulse of what was going on, but also building up an awareness of who worked for him. And I think also creating a little bit of a sense of trust that he could bank on, that we could bank on when times got tough.

Wow. That is really, really, really important. That's really leadership in practice. I always tell people, The Navy, the military in general, is really a leadership organization. Just happen to have hardware and things. But okay, second, uh, category for this section: what are you learning now? I know leaders are learners. What is interesting to you?

Uh, couple areas, um, and they, they sort of point to the, uh, you know, where I am in my career, but also, um tech trends that are surrounding us. So, uh, there's, there's 3 areas that I'm trying to get a little bit smarter on. Um, one, obviously enough, is AI, trying to keep pace with, um, everything that's going on around us. Second area is, um, I was asked, um, what's a technology, right, a technology area akin to AI a couple years, you know, 5, 10 years ago? And, you know, the answer that I have, but it's also coming out of some projects that we've been working with our partners on, people keep coming back again and again to the field of synthetic biology, uh, that, um, the amount of change, um, and development that's having, in large part because of AI, and that it's, it's having ripple effects from, you know, obvious ones of you know, helping with treatment of diseases, coming up with new medicines, but, you know, other areas like how the field of construction, how concrete is going to be changed by it. And we're actually doing a project right now for a government partner on trying to come up with some explainer scenarios of that. So those are the two, like, technical areas that I'm trying to get better at. On the skill side, business leader side, Um, I am someone who, uh, moved into this field later in their career, uh, so there's certain parts of, um, business, uh, in particular that, um, sales side of things, getting over that, um, uh, how to put it, the, the resistance to reaching out to potential clients, closing feel. Um, I— that's something that, you know, I'm, I'm working on getting better myself. Um, and then, you know, a final, um, maybe somewhat related to that is— and you'll smile at this— is we, we do a great deal of work with the US government. We work some with corporations, but a great deal of government trying to get smart on the contracting process, which, um, yes, it's been my entire life doing that. So, um, Yeah, those are some areas that I'm working on getting better at.

No, this is so, so true. You may not know that, but when I was in college, I was studying chemistry and biology and I almost earned a PhD in microbiology. It's really interesting how you learn something for so long and then you don't use it for a long time and how that knowledge may still be useful in the future somehow. And talking about sales, I have this Microsoft Certified Small Business Specialist. Microsoft taught me how to be a salesman. When I was a student, part of the thing I was doing is selling Microsoft software and they taught me how to do it. And one good thing about being a salesman, you hear no all the time. No, no, no, no. And you need to not let that affect you and still find a way to get to a yes by focusing on your customer, what their needs are and how you can actually help them. Not just you making money, but you actually adding great, great, great value. But anyway, very, very fascinating. So third category, I love this coin. On one side it says success, on this side it says failure. I really believe success and failure are two sides of the SEMCON. We know about all of your successes and all of the great things you have done, but how has failure shaped your life?

And are you willing to share some instances? Oh yeah. I think there's lots of things that you work at, you fail. The ones that stick with me the most are the, um, the roads not taken, you know, to steal from literature. It's the, um, the, the book concept that, uh, I started to work on and then for a variety of reasons, um, set it aside. Those are the ones that I look back on with the most regret, uh, the project idea, you know, whatever it is, it's that It's that, um, put it, uh, not being willing to make that final leap. Those are the failures that stick with me the most. Makes, makes sense.

Okay, uh, who are your thought leaders and mentors? Who do you follow?

Um, depends on the, the field. Um, I mean, I, I draw upon so many different, you know, um Uh, let me put it a different way then. It's not so much individuals, it's also just sort of a process, uh, of, um, when I'm trying to get smart on a certain topic area, a lot like, um, our, uh, what we were just referencing, um, is I try and be multidisciplinary about it, but also kind of multimodal. So whether I'm trying to learn about AI or I'm trying to I'm trying to learn about sales, or I'm trying to learn about, um, how to fix something, whatever, or something, how to fix something in the house, um, I am going to, um, pull from written texts. Uh, it might be books, it might be articles, it might be blogs, um, and then I'm going to use them to backtrack. Uh, so who is that book referencing? Who is that article referencing? Um, that leads to individuals, people. Uh, okay, um, not just, you know, so someone who is referenced in that text, um, what, uh, do they have a podcast? Do they have their own book? Um, uh, is there— is it— is it someone in my network that, uh, I can actually personally reach out to and pick their brain? Maybe they're not in my network, and so I'm pulling off of something that they have. And then there is that final sort of personal experience side of experimenting a little bit in that area itself to figure out, you know, okay, what's that gap between what I read and what I'm doing here? Again, if I'm just sort of self-examining, whether it's trying to be a good writer or trying to figure out how to run a business, is probably the approach that I would bring to it. Um, and I'm always, I, I mean, I, I'm always taking notes, uh, for potential future use. Um, again, whether it's from that text or a writer, and, and again, it might be from other fields. So, um, you and I have been talking about writing non-fiction books or, um, books useful fiction-related technology, but, um, you know, I found, I'll find myself I'm reading a detective novel and there's a certain turn of phrase and I'm like, man, that's just so good. Or the way they approach the detail and I'll write that down and put it in there. Or I might read an article on a certain AI breakthrough and like, ooh, that is a data point I wanna learn more on. And so I'm using those as my future references, but also They're sort of guideposts that are steering me towards something else.

That is excellent. I think nobody has really quite explained that that way. And again, for the aspiring leaders there in the military and in high tech, that's definitely what has been the experience for my life as well. Depending on where you are in your life and your career, what you need to know, find out who those experts are and go after them. And if you may not be able, for example, I've never met Dr. Zinga until now, but at least I had access to his book and I can read this and take notes and then ask my mentors. That's really how you learn. So if you could choose 3 people, they could be alive, dead, or even fictional character, who would you choose or why to have dinner with?

3 people. Oh my gosh. I should have more ready answers to these. Uh, so just off the top of my head, um, I would, uh, I'm fascinated by the, um, the person, the history, and the character of Churchill. Um, it would be a wonderful dinner companion by all repute. He would probably be drinking us all under the table, but also just the insights that he would have on World War II, on leadership, on resilience. I, I just think he would be a fascinating dinner companion. Um, uh, one sticking with me from the realm of, um, uh, fiction, um, I'm gonna go with, uh, Captain Pike from Star Trek, uh, the more recent one. Um, uh, mostly because I think he's a phenomenal leader. I, I— we could have a I've actually had this argument with people. You have very different leader models that come out of the different generations of Star Trek that reflect— yes, that era thinks of as a great leader, you know. So whether it's the, the, the fists first Captain Kirk, hyper-masculine, now almost kind of cliché, to Captain Picard, who is this, you know, sort of thoughtful Um, you know, Mike is a very— he's empathic. Um, but I'm adding him in because if you know that, um, the, the recent series, he's a phenomenal cook. So I want to get his leadership lessons, but also he's a great cook. Um, so I've got my third one. Um, uh, who am I pulling? Um, uh, there's so many different cliché ones I could go with. Uh, um, One more. Yeah, I'm, I'm kind of, you know, I'm overwhelmed with— I'm like, do I go with Lincoln? Do I go with Jesus Christ? Right? Hold it.

Okay, that's good enough. Yeah, go along with Abraham Lincoln and Jesus Christ. That is—

yeah, it'd be interesting to, to, um, uh, set aside your faith issues. Um, it'd be interesting to, to interact with Jesus as a person. And, you know, kind of understand, um, what did he think about all of these things, the consequence of the world, etc. So, um, I, I, and to see him and, uh, Churchill interact would be, um, wonderful. So those are my, like, off-the-cuff, um, please don't judge me.

Uh, no, no, that is wonderful. I, I would like to be a fly on, on that wall just to listen. And I remember when I, when I just met, uh, Junior Officer, my Captain Masuda, Joel Roschala. I really love to be around everywhere he was because I didn't have to say anything. I'd keep my mouth shut. I would just have that notebook and just write notes and write notes, take notes and just learn and learn and learn. I guess he did even— Sorry, go ahead. Who would be your 3? Oh, let's see. I think Jesus definitely, because I think he definitely changed the history of the universe. I really love Abraham Lincoln, but also love MLK. And I think I have many. Definitely one of my big mentors is the late General Colin Powell. He passed away, but he's really had a huge, huge impact on my life. I read all of his books and I got the chance to meet him, I think it was in 2017 in Atlanta. He signed one of his books. I mean, really, really life-changing. This guy, he has so much charisma. When he gets in the room, it's almost as if the The molecules in the room, they just change. It's like, it's electrifying. Like every word he says, it has like power behind it. It's just incredible. Just his humility, his knowledge. And no, it's just, just, just incredible human being. Was that probably the people? Did I mention Maya Angelou too? But yeah, most people, they really— Oh no, no.

I think the challenge with all of these is imagining oneself in the room, I feel like I would be petrified to say anything. You know, I'd like, just as you say, you want to be a fly on the wall and listen, but at a certain point I would kind of worry that they're looking at me like, you know, what are you doing here? Like, you know, say something. Yeah, I know it's a fascinating dinner, but I wonder if it would truly be enjoyable to be surrounded by the greatest people and you're your heroes, it might be nerve-wracking.

Absolutely. So really quickly, uh, in addition to, to your own books, which are fabulous, and we want everybody to purchase those— Burning Like War, Ghost Fleet, Cybersecurity, Cyberwar, Wired for War, Corporate Warriors, and Children at War— man, you keep writing. Which, which books would you recommend my audience?

One or two out of that set, or other people's books?

Other people's book. Oh, wow.

I mean, there's so many, but, you know, we're often kind of shaped by what we recently read. And the best book that I read this summer is a book called The Lincoln Highway by Amor Towles, T-O-W-L-E-S. It's a novel set in the, if I'm recalling correctly, around the sort of the 1950s. And it's just, he's that kind of what I was referencing earlier, just an incredibly skillful writer who paints a scene. It's one of those books that you can sit and read with your coffee in the morning. And when it ends, you're sort of, you're sad that the— that experience of just being able to escape into a good book written by a great author. So it's not a nonfiction book. You know, I don't know if it has a large sort of leadership lesson to it, but it's just a, you know, it's like, um, people who are really good at their craft, whatever that field is, I have so much respect for. He's a writer like that.

All right, we only have 4 minutes left. Any, um, podcast you would recommend?

I'm, um, I apologize, but I'm not a huge, uh, podcast listener other than First Force stuff. I think, you know, between work and life, I don't have as much time for them.

Yeah, understood. Any movies?

Oh gosh, I mean, again, we're really— I am again sort of, you know what, a great historic movie that I just saw that was phenomenal is A Bridge Too Far. Uh, and it's, um, for those that are not familiar with it, it's the story of, um, the, uh, Operation Market Garden during World War II, which was a failed airborne operation. Um, the movie was made like a couple decades later. It's, um, uh, the— it's a true story. It's based on a history book. The movie has all of the great actors. I mean, it's absurd how like Literally, it's, it's, you know, if you think of our movies today, we've got like one or two famous people. Every famous actor in the era is in it. For those though that are interested not just in history but organizational behavior, it's fascinating because, um, the, the book and the movie capture how, um, what seems like a great idea, um, one, actually isn't because no one asked the hard questions. Or if they ask the hard questions, they're viewed as a naysayer. And then secondly, how you can have that people had not sort of been willing to identify points of failure that could bring a whole enterprise under. And so it's a good— it's awesome. It's a history, it's an action, great actors, but also I think there are some larger lessons from it.

Um, and it goes back to what you were talking about before.

It's the rare, um, movie that's about a failure. It was, uh, not to ruin it, but it's history. It was not a successful operation. Literally the name, A Bridge Too Far. Uh, there was amazing— they put one— they went after one bridge too many in this airborne operation. So, um, that's my, uh, uh, World War II history movie recommendation of Thank you so much.

No, this, this is really good. I remember, uh, I used to not watch movies at all, but one of the best skipper I've ever had when I was a lieutenant junior grade taught me how to seek for leadership principle into movies. And it was just that kind of change of the way I look at everything. So we only had a couple of minutes left. I said, I'm gonna let you go out on time, but one quick question I have to ask you really, really quick. Uh, when you wake up in the morning, what is one problem you would like to solve?

In the world or my own life? Uh, you choose. Um, I'll do my own life. That's a lot. I mean, um, I, uh, in my, my own— and I think this is a leadership challenge— prioritization. Um, I— where, you know, you have a long list of different action items, and, uh, do you make a choice of focus on one, um, and, and put all your energy towards that versus do you spread your energy, your time, your team's time in sort of trying to move each of these rocks forward a little bit and trying to reach that final destination. And that's a challenge I'm constantly wrestling with. I don't think anyone who says, you know, one way or the other really master it. So, you know, it's a little bit of a balancing act that I find myself, that problem I face each day is prioritization. Do I focus or do I try and, um, push broadly across multiple, uh, um, work problems, life problems, etc.?

Definitely the burden of leadership. So if you had one day and only one day to live, what would you have liked your final contribution to be?

Uh, it would be family time. I know it's cliché, but I would want to spend, um, kind of that ideal perfect day with your family. Amen. And it would be some kind of shared activity that would be joyful, that would create memories.

Yes. Thank you. Okay, we've finally come to the end. The 7th question is, you've added so much value into us, what can we do to add value back to you?

Oh, that's kind of you. Um, I think, uh, you know, maybe two primary areas. One would be, um, if people are interested in the variety of topics that we've talked about, the books, um, they're all available on, uh, you know, online platforms or at your bookstore. Um, again, whether it's I'm interested in learning more on topics like cybersecurity or AI or robotics, you know, conflict issues on the, on the non-fiction side, or I'm looking for some education/entertainment on the fiction side. Ghost Fleet, Burn In, each of them are in that space, useful fiction. So hopefully those are of interest. And the other is our useful fiction project, which is useful-fiction.com. We're an organization of people with backgrounds that range from former military leaders to tech forecasters to bestselling authors, Hollywood creators, and we're all interested in, um, how do we use the power of story to, um, help, uh, move forward on real-world issues. And, um, so check it out. We run workshops. Um, we also work with partners on creating narratives for them. So, uh, yeah, those would be two areas that might be of interest to your audience. Fantastic.

And now to end the podcast, one question I'd like to ask you again. I have in mind all of those that aspiring military and tech leaders in the audience. If you could go back and give a piece of advice to your 17-year-old self standing at the edge of this incredible career you've had, what would you say?

Uh, chase what you're passionate at. Um, be willing to make that leap. Wow.

Mekvelip. That is wonderful. Okay. And very, very quickly, 3 adjectives that describes you as a child and then as an adult, and that's going to end it.

Oh gosh. Introspective. Let's see, um, perspective, uh, probably, um, and these would be the, the same, um, energetic, uh, um, uh, and, uh, probably obsessive. Okay, as an adult, I'm gonna stick with all those. Okay, fantastic.

All right, so we have to—

each of those doesn't have to— those can be a positive or negative. Obsessive. It can be, you know, we know that can be a negative side, but you can be obsessive about an issue. You love it, you go after it, you care about the detail. So yeah, yeah, I mean, awesome.

Yeah, sorry for going over a couple of minutes, but this is it, this is the very end. So to end, I say, what is one word that comes to your mind that represents the shared experience we've had on this podcast today? What works on this podcast today?

Uh, I think that I'll actually— it's sticking in my mind, but it was introspective. Um, you were forcing— you were asking questions of me that are different than, um, often what you get on podcasts, and you're different than, uh, what I was, you know, obviously prepared for, you know, whether it's the, uh, describe yourself or, um, that. So I think it's, it's forced me to think about certain aspects. And then hopefully it's helping your audience in the same way, not just what I'm thinking, but absolutely asking that same question of themselves.

Yes. And for me, it would be grateful. I am so grateful. So thankful. Thank you for taking the time, Dr. P.W. Singer. This is incredible. One of the best days of my life, especially in 2025. Thank you. Any last word before we go? I know you have to go. That's great. Thanks again. All right, folks, you've heard it from the one and only Dr. P.W. Singer. Please make sure to follow him, purchase purchase all of his books and, uh, yeah, uh, add value back. And thank you so much, sir.

Really, really appreciate it. Thank you. Have a good one.

All right, so this is it. And if you would, please, uh, let me know 3 takeaways from this conversation. I know this is probably going to be one of the most popular podcasts I've ever recorded, but please, uh, let us know what you are getting out of this. What is one leadership insight that you are going to apply this week? And I am checking here. I don't see any question on LinkedIn, but thanks again for being here with us. And I'm going to be back not tomorrow. I normally do this daily, but actually today at 3:00 PM, one of my brothers, international keynote speaker Michael Pope, is going to join us on the podcast. So if you can be at 3:00 PM California time, 6:00 PM Eastern time, I would very, very much appreciate that. So until this afternoon, and then I will see you again tomorrow. This is Coach Bizzy., and thanks again for being with us. Bye.

Thank you for listening to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If you like what you heard, please subscribe to our channels and come back for more wisdom nuggets on how you may develop into a better leader and achieve greater levels of success. Leadership is the most critical skill. The world will always need leaders to lead others, deploy the next disruptive technology or execute a business strategy. You may as well decide on counting yourself among the 21st century leaders. See you right here next time on the Leadership and Success Podcast with