S4:E104🎙️ Live with CDR James Seddon, U.S. Navy

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Hi everyone, I'm James Seddon, Commander, U.S. Navy, retired. I'm also a retired IT director. I'm now a freelance writer and activist. I started working when I was 12 years old selling Grit magazine door-to-door, and I've been working ever since. I got my first leadership responsibilities in 1991. I led sailors, soldiers, airmen, and Marines for 21 years. Outside the Navy, I led in IT as the head of enterprise networking for a major research university as well as an industry. I did that for 25 years. I started learning about leadership in 1990, often the hard way. I thrived under great leadership and suffered under terrible leadership. I made a ton of mistakes and I learned from all of it. After over 30 years in non-stop leadership positions, I'm still learning. I've never felt like I made it. Many civilians are surprised to hear about how important soft skills are in military leadership. They often wrongly think that an officer gives an order and that's that. They don't know the importance of trust in the military, of empathy, of the critical role— the critical role that emotions play, people's emotions play, in how the mission gets accomplished or not. All of that carries over very nicely to the civilian world. Now I'm on my third career. Uh, I'm a writer, I'm a speaker and an advocate for veterans and Afghan wartime allies, uh, working for a coalition known as Afghan Evac. We're working to ensure that every verified and vetted Afghan wartime ally who wants to escape the Taliban, uh, has a chance to. Uh, today I use storytelling to help people see the hidden human impact of policies and events. And not just for entertainment, but to change how we act, to change how we treat others, and yes, to change even which government policies we support or oppose. So whether you're a junior officer looking forward to your next rank and preparing for it, or Silicon Valley engineer stepping into your very first leadership role, I hope I can share what I've learned along the way and what I'm still learning. So I'm honored to have Coach VZ invite me to the Leadership and Success Podcast to talk about what it has meant to me to lead in uniform, in life, and beyond. I'm really looking forward to it, and I will see you there.

All right everyone, this is Coach VZ. Thanks so much for joining us. I have a very, very special guest today, but before I introduce him, let's do our moment of gratitude. As is our custom. As you guys know, we do this partly because in the Navy and all of the armed forces services branches, about 22 veterans commit suicide every single day. So it's really an epidemic. And I believe it's not possible to be suicidal and grateful at the same time. So every day I force myself and I encourage everyone to think about at least one thing that you are grateful for. And if you would, you may close your eyes, put yourself in your happy place, and maybe take a deep breath and think about what is one thing you are grateful for today. In Silicon Valley this morning, we had some rain, and I'm grateful for that. It doesn't rain much here, so I am really grateful for the weather. So what are you grateful for? Please type it in the comments. And also let us know, uh, where you are joining us from, what city, what state, uh, what you are grateful for. And also, if you have a, uh, question for my guest, please type it in the comment as well. All right, so let me see if I can do him justice. Okay, I'm gonna try. Uh, today we are going to be having the privilege really to meet and speak with Commander Seddon. So from the war zone of Afghanistan to the storytelling frontline of advocacy and authorship, Commander Seddon, US Navy retired, has lived the Navy's 11 principles, leadership principles, and continued to teach them through action, empathy, and purpose. And by the way, I just found out those 11 Navy leadership principles that I learned at boot camp, we stole them from, from the Army, but that is all good. So Commander Seddon is a career naval officer turned author and humanitarian, and he reminds us that leadership isn't about title, but it's about impact, right? His work with the Afghan evac and his writing for outlets like the LA Times and San Diego Union Tribune show what service after service truly means. So without any further ado, ladies and gentlemen, please help me welcome from San Diego, Commander James Seddon. All right, Commander Seddon, how are you?

Hello. I'm great. I love the cheering crowds. That happens every time I walk in here. Thank you.

Thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited to have you. To get started, can you share one thing you are grateful for?

Yeah. You know, it's, it's, it's so funny you have that habit because I do, too. We didn't talk about that before today, but I absolutely have that habit. Here's a, here's a free tip. I use the Panda Planner. If you, if you don't know what the Panda Planner is, but that's what I use for my daily planning. And there's— it's a combination of like journaling and planning and there's a section for gratitude on there every day. And it's been a habit I've gotten into recently. And I, I agree with you. It's a very good habit to be in, not just to like list, list the things you're grateful for, but to, to spend a moment with them In other words, you write something down and then you imagine a world where that didn't exist. Wow. It like forces you to feel that gratitude, right? And so today's list is pretty big. I'll just, you know, I won't read from all of it. I'll pick one of them. But one of the things I'm really grateful for is the Afghan Evac Organization and another organization called the International Refugee Assistance Project. When I get off this call, I'm reviewing some documents that IRAP, the International Refugee Assistance Project,, has helped prepare for an Afghan wartime ally that we're trying to reach safety. And so like, it's super easy to feel grateful for that because they're, that's like super important and they're helping pro bono for this. But when I, you know, wrote that down and then forced myself to imagine a world without that, it wasn't hard because when I first got in the Afghan evac business, I had no help at all. I didn't know anybody. I didn't know anything about the business. I was completely on my own and it was miserable. So like, like this, this was like a super easy grateful thing. It's like, oh, I'm so glad I have this expertise behind me. I'm so glad I've got people smarter than me, you know, helping me figure out what the right thing to do for this case is. Um, so anyway, that's something I'm really thankful for today.

Well, I am so grateful that for the work that you do, it's really God's work, and I'm really glad there are people like, like you who do it. Some of us may be a little bit limited in what we can or may not do, while still wearing the uniform. But, but of course, what you're doing is extremely important. And thank you. Thank you so much. Can you let us know a little bit about your leadership journey, how you ended up in the U.S. Navy? Yeah.

So I originally, you know, growing up in high school, I wanted to be a fighter pilot. You know, Top Gun came out at the same time. I was always proud. I was always proud of saying that I wanted to be a fighter pilot before Top Gun came out, which is true, although Top Gun certainly helped solidify all that. But so that That my original plan was to go be a fighter pilot for the Navy. Um, I knew I wanted to go through ROTC. I didn't want to go to the Naval Academy. I wanted to go to a, uh, you know, normal college. And my acad— I tell my academy friends that all the time, that I wanted to go to college and that's why I didn't go to the academy. Um, but the, uh, I knew I wanted to go through ROTC to re— to get my commission and then be a fighter pilot. And then once I started in the ROTC program, um, you know, part of what that program does is expose you to different parts of the Navy. And I actually came to realize I didn't want to be a pilot after all. Uh, so I ended up being a surface warrior. So that's where my, like, leadership experience started. The Navy's very good about, um, you know, training prospective leaders to be ready for that first leadership position and then throwing them into the deep end, uh, immediately after that training. And, um, I, you know, benefited from some really good mentors, including the, the first, uh, the first chief petty officer in my division. The first, you know, the senior person in my division was the top chief in the boat, and You know, he taught me a lot. You know, on paper, he's my subordinate, but he really taught me a lot about what it took to be a good officer. And so, I benefited from some really good people along the way. You know, did my stint in the Navy, active duty stint in the Navy for 6 years, left active duty, joined the Reserve. So, my Navy career and leadership continued. Never was a commanding officer, but I did serve as an executive officer for a couple of units.

Wow.

And then before I retired from the Reserves. Simultaneously, my civilian career, I went to the IT workforce as a civilian. And there was a brief, brief period when I wasn't responsible for anybody else, and it was glorious. But then very, very quickly, very quickly, I got, you know, the organization was growing. I got assigned other people. And so I started my, you know, civilian leadership career you know, back in 2000, I guess 2000. And then, yeah. And so then I had a whole, you know, 24-year civilian career, you know, in IT, leading IT organizations. When I left my last big position before I retired from that second career, I was leading an organization at a major research university. My department had 77 people, a budget of about $30 million.

Wow.

We did all of the voice and networking, you know, both voice and data networking for University of California at San Diego, uh, for, you know, the entire campus. And, you know, we had, um, so it was— that was a great experience. And I got to— I got to apply things I learned in the Navy and adapt and learn new things in the civilian world. Uh, and so that's kind of where my leadership journey has gone. Um, and then like today, I don't have any direct reports today, um, but I'm trying to lead in other ways, uh, by, by being active in public on Afghan evac in particular and other social issues that I care about.

Well, that is really wonderful. I like everything you've said. One thing for JOs who are listening right now, very important, extremely important, I think. Now, I am a little bit different than you because I got in as an E-1 21 years ago. So I know who chiefs are and I know they really truly run the Navy. They are the anchor. But it's true, when you are And O-1, you think, oh, I am above a chief. But the truth is, no, you are a junior officer. You are a baby and you need the chiefs to really mentor you and show you what a good officer looks like. That's absolutely something that is crucial. I think if you ignore head chief, you really do it at your own peril.

That's correct.

I heard, sorry, I don't know if it's true, but I heard that some people went to Vietnam JOs, not from the academy and all of that. They thought they were hotshots, but they never came back because they completely ignored the advice of their chiefs. But anyway, very, very, uh, important. So another thing that you said that's pretty important to know— with, like me, I've been in the US Navy active duty and the reserve. You started the same way. It's really amazing how you can be in the Navy even actively for 20 years, you retire, then you have another 20 years to do some something else. So it's, uh, it's, it's really a great opportunity. So for those who are thinking about joining the military service, I highly, highly recommend it. And in my opinion, really, the Navy and all of the other branches of the military is really all about leadership. So it's not about your title or how many people report to you, but it's really the impact, right? I think you start by leading one, that's yourself, and whether you have direct reports or not. But okay, cool. So now I guess you've been retired for about 10 years now, right?

From the military, yes. Wow.

So, uh, for those meeting you for the first time, uh, how do you describe your journey from Navy commander to author, advocate, and storyteller? And by the way, you're working on your first book. Once you get it published, I definitely want you back on, uh, oh, that'd be great, that'd be great. How, how would you just describe your, uh, journey?

Yeah, so, you know, as, as a reservist, uh, you know, I was running two careers simultaneously.

Mm-hmm.

And so when I retired from the, uh, the, the military, I continued on with my civilian career, which I'd already, you know, I was already well on my way with. Um, so that, that just kind of continued. And I was fortunate to work for an organization that was very supportive of reservists. And, you know, my, my career was always, um, there for me when I came back from being recalled, uh, to active duty and whatnot. So that was of, of great benefit to me.

Wow.

Um, and You know, I knew, like, I mean, like a lot of us that were joining the military, we do feel a sense of duty or a call to service. And, you know, one of the things I really enjoyed about working for the university was it was an organization that had a mission that was admirable. And so I enjoyed being, you know, working for an organization that was trying to further that mission. So that was important to me. And, you know, I knew and saw opportunities to continue to serve in other ways, you know, that I wanted to be an advocate for veterans. I was a volunteer for Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America for a long time. I'm still a member but not an active leader there anymore. And then when Afghanistan fell to the Taliban, it hit Afghanistan veterans like me hard. Even the veterans who thought this was going to be the end result anyway, it still hit them hard. Like it hit everybody hard. And then our allies started reaching out to us because they'd been left behind and they were being hunted by the Taliban. And so I think a lot of us have some story of in the days after the Taliban took over— yes, you know, an ally reaching out to them personally in terror and trying to figure out how to access the relief that U.S. law says they should get. And, uh, You know, and that— and most of us who were involved in this work just made a decision that even if we didn't know what we were talking about, didn't know what to do, we just weren't going to ignore that. We were going to— we were going to hear it and then we were going to try something. And those were awful days because I had no idea. I had no idea what the law was. I had no idea what to do. But, you know, the work I'm in now, I feel like I was kind of forced into. I didn't go looking for this. Um, you know, I didn't, I didn't seek out— I wasn't sitting around going, gee, I need, uh, another cause that this— that I need to spend time on. I feel like I was forced into this. I could not, could not ignore it. And, uh, you know, uh, I, I had to fight for them even if the rest of the country didn't want to. Um, so it's, it's—

that's really admirable. Uh, that's really not what leadership really is. That's the the essence.

Yeah, people, you know, people say it's admirable, you know. I don't know, it's— I feel like, I feel like an admirable, you know, somebody worthy of admiration would be somebody who wants to do this. I don't know if I want to do it. Like, I feel like I said, like I'm being forced into it, you know. People have said it must feel good to help these people. Like, most of the time it feels awful, you know. Like, you know, the successes are hard and they're rare, and there's way more failures than there are successes. It's like, this work is not feel-good work. It's awful.

You guess what? But for the few people that you are able to help, you are like an angel to them because you really make all of the difference. I was— one of my mentors had told me a story. I think it was in a beach, I believe in San Diego. There was like a storm. I think there were a bunch of starfishes on the beach. And then there was this little boy, he would just take one at a time and put them back in the sea. He couldn't do it for all of them, but whatever he could, he did. And when somebody said, what are you doing? You're wasting your time. You're never going to be able to save all of these Starfish, you just need to drop it off and go do something else. He's like, well, for this starfish, this is going to be life-changing. I'm making a huge difference in the life of this one. I'm not doing it for all of them, but I'm doing it for this one. And then he kept doing it. And it's really, really powerful imagery.

Yeah, I love that story. And I always say that people too often use the excuse, I can't help everyone. They use that as an excuse to help no one. And like, I always think that's a poor excuse.

You may not be able to help everyone, but you can help someone. And that would just make such a huge, huge impact. And again, leadership is about impact, not title or anything like that. So you often describe yourself as a recovering IT manager and regularly unsuccessful fisherman. I love that humility. What does that say about your outlook on life and leadership?

Yeah, so I think humility is super important to being an effective leader. You know, only a fool thinks they're never wrong. Only a fool thinks that. We are all wrong sometimes, right? But only a fool thinks they're never wrong. And so whatever the situation is, I think humility is important for leadership because people who never think they're wrong, the rest of us see right through that, right? When they make a mistake and deny it, the rest of us see right through that, right? So like, I don't know what act they think they're doing, but humility is super important because it makes you approachable, it makes you genuine, it builds trust with your subordinates. Trust with your subordinates is a big thing. And so, you know, So holding open the possibility, both internally and externally, externally holding open the possibility that you could be wrong, that this could be one of the times that you're wrong, I think is a very effective tactic. I think it's the right thing to do. I also think it's a very effective leadership tactic because your subordinates will respect that. You know, there's been times where I've made a call that's not popular, or I've made a call where there have been some people that very strongly felt like, "That's not the direction we need to go." And I think the The best thing you can do in that situation is explain, you know, that you have to make this call, why it is that you're making the call that you're making, and hold open the possibility that you could be wrong, right? Like in that conversation, say, I have to make this call, you know, due to my position. This is my call to make. This is why I'm making this call. No one else can make the call. I have to do it. Here's why I'm doing it. And I could be wrong and you could be right. And here's what we ought to set up. Like let's set up some, metrics we can monitor. Let's set some tripwires. You know, the things that you're worried about, you think I'm wrong. Let's set up some tripwires so that if it starts turning out that you're right and I'm wrong, we'll set off these tripwires and we can make a course adjustment, right? Like that, like that, that kind of approach that includes the humility to admit you might be wrong, super effective with subordinates. You know, and then, you know, Spartans don't expect perfection.

Mm-hmm.

Right. And, and, you know, so, yeah. So I think, you know, saying things like I'm a regularly unsuccessful fisherman is, is both true. And also it, it, like, I, I'm trying to, to model, you know, humility. I think it's a, I, I do have an ego, kind of a big ego. So I think it's important for myself to make sure to, you know, to ground myself and, and, you know, keep myself realistic and, and humble.

That is really, really powerful. And I think that's also the best way to really create trust, right? Because as a leader, that is really the most important thing. You want your people to trust you and you trust them. And that's why I say in the Navy, right, we are willing to go above and beyond, even to the point where you may have to put your life on the line for the sailor to your right or to your left because of that trust that Esprit the cause that you create. So that's, that's really, really powerful. So let's talk about those, uh, Navy's 11 leadership principles, which I just found out we completely stole from the US Army. Uh, which, which one of, of those, um, you memorize all of them as a midshipman. And I, yeah, I, uh, was, uh, at, uh, RTC, uh, Great Mistakes— I mean, Great Lakes— uh, when I learned them for the first time.

So which one of those principles guided you the most in your naval Oh, you know, I had to memorize them too, and I can't recite them from memory now, but like, like the first few have always stuck with me. So like, if you're only going to read half of them, read the first 5, you know, and they're, they're real brief. Like, the first one is know your people and look out for their welfare.

Yes.

Like, that's— and that's number 1. And I think that that's something that, that, you know, a lot of leaders, uh, overlook, right? Is it that like, you know, people and their emotions are highly relevant to mission accomplishment? Like, I've met, especially in the IT world, the IT world is full of people that are like, it's all about the tech. Like, this is, this is the best technical solution, period, end of discussion, and it doesn't matter what your feelings are about it, right? Like, there's a— IT is filled with people like that. Um, but that is so, so wrong. Like, you know, everything in, in this world, uh, that human beings are engaged in are about the people. Like, there is nothing that isn't about the people. If your technology is failing, people are going to be part of the solution. If your technology is failing, people are probably part of the problem. Like, you know, it's, it's always about the people. So, you know, and, you know, we talked about, you know, building trust with your people. One of the most important, you know, trust has nothing to do with like, like your subordinates don't need to like you. It's nice when they do, but that's not required. But I think what is required is for them to trust you. And one of the things they have to believe is they have to believe that you don't hold any ill will towards them. That you're not looking for bad outcomes for them, right? That you're focused on the team, you're focused on the mission, and you're not trying to harm them, right? And so the first one there, "Know your people and look out for their welfare," speaks to all of that. Like, you know who they are, and, and, you know, you must, you must look out for their welfare. Like, you know, you have to, you have to keep their emotions in mind, their situation in mind, and you have to not hold any ill will, even toward the people you don't like and that you have ill will toward. You have to pretend that you don't. And act like you don't if you want to be an effective leader. You know, the next one is keep your people informed. It's pretty simple. Next one is know yourself and seek self-improvement. Again, that's talking about that humility. You know, if you need self-improvement, it means you're not perfect. So know yourself, seek self-improvement. Next one is be technically, tactically proficient. And that applies even in the civilian world, right? You know, your subordinates don't want perfection, but they do want you to be competent at your tasks. Right? So, you know, you need to understand what level of proficiency you need in your line of work and work to gain that. And the last one, again, also speaks to humility, you know, seek responsibility and take responsibility for your actions. And, you know, that includes, you know, admitting when you were wrong, admitting when your subordinates were right or your peers or your bosses or whoever, you know, they—

That's powerful.

Nobody, no, nobody, your bosses nor yours want to see is they want to see that you recognize when you've messed up, that you acknowledge that you messed up and that you've learned from your mess up. That's what they want.

Right.

And so, you know, those are just the first 5. And like, you know, when, when I, when I was in, uh, one of my first, uh, experiences with an actual enlisted Navy person in training, he, he told me, he said, Being in the Navy is easy. Everything you're supposed to do is written down. And like, and then they get— then they give us this, these 11, you know, leadership principles. I'm like, okay, here it is written down. I need to do this if I want to be a good leader, right? And boy, I've just been floored at how well they work. Like, if you ponder them and you think about them deeply and you figure out what it means and you try to emulate it, you're going to do well if you actually follow these.

Yeah, I can definitely relate to that. Being in the Navy is easy because everything is written down, especially at boot camp. They tell you when to wake up, when to sleep, what to wear. You don't have to think about anything. So your life's pretty much laid out for you. That definitely makes it easy. So if I say mission first, what do you say?

Well, I'd say, okay, fine, but you're not going to do that mission without these people.

Yeah, people always. That is exactly right. So, that is wonderful. So, you just mentioned that too, you talked about trust and really the goal is not for you to be liked, right? Trust doesn't mean like, but starts with never lying to your team. Can you share a moment when that principle was tested in your career?

Sure, I mean, there are going to be times when maybe you can't share everything, you know, there could be confidential information that you're privy to from your boss, you know, the boss at the boss level. Yes, that, that's, that for, you know, especially in the civilian world, that for regulatory or legal reasons you cannot share with your subordinates, but is the reason why something is happening, right? And, you know, you know, there, there, there's— you're tempted in situations like that to sort of come up with a more plausible answer, right? And, you know, I think, I think that's super important, never ever to lie to your subordinates. So like if If, you know, don't say it's somebody else's fault. Don't, you know, don't, don't make up a reason. Just give it to them straight. If you can't tell them something, say, I can't tell you. And here's why I can't tell you. Like, I can't tell you for regulatory or legal reasons, right? They're not. And then you say, I know you're not happy with that. And in your shoes, I wouldn't be happy with that either. But it's the truth, right? Like, like, like never lie. If you may. And it goes to if you made a mistake, Don't lie about that. You know, definitely, definitely don't lie about that. Say, nope, I really screwed that one up, didn't I? You know, the— yeah, certainly never lie to your team. You know, I think the elements of trust start with never lying to your team. The elements of trust, you know, are them believing that you have their welfare in mind. Like, even if something you're doing is not great for them, that they believe that you're not doing it to harm them, you're doing it for mission reasons.

Yes.

You know, they have to believe that, right? And these are things you can't like— trust is something has to be built up over hundreds and thousands of small— of them observing you in small interactions, right? Hundreds and thousands of those where each of those hundreds of instances, they see you knowing them and looking out for their welfare. They see you telling the truth, even if it's uncomfortable for you to tell them the truth. Like they see all of that stuff. And over a long period of time and hundreds of cases of that, they'll trust you, which means that when, when it comes time for the big withdrawal on that account, when you're going to have to do something really hard or really painful or whatever it is, they're going to be there for you. They're going to be with you because they trust you.

That's really powerful because being vulnerable definitely encourages trust. And it's also one of those things where it's very, very difficult to build But once you've got it, so easy to lose as well. But if you go back to your rule, never, never lie, that's going to keep you out of trouble, I think. That's powerful. So let's talk about your service beyond uniform, especially with the Afghan evac, the work that you are doing. What has been, you think, the most rewarding but also the most challenging part of serving in that humanitarian effort?

Yeah, excuse me. So the The most rewarding part are the people that we get here successfully. You know, they're— I'll try to say this without tearing up because it's just a moving story, but one family that it wasn't just me, but I was a critical piece of getting them here. This is a woman and her family. She was a prosecutor who put Taliban in jail. Like, she took Taliban commanders off the battlefield. By charging them with terrorism charges and throwing them in jail. So, she was absolutely a wartime ally as an Afghan civilian. Like, she was directly aiding the war effort by taking Taliban commanders, Taliban bomb makers, you know, all these Taliban financiers. She was using the criminal justice system to take these people off the battlefield and they wanted her dead because of it. And when the Taliban took over, they called her and said, "We remember you and we're coming for you." And it, you know, it gets worse. The story gets worse. Her husband worked for a TV station that broadcast all kinds of things that the Taliban didn't like, you know, suggesting that women should have education and other sorts of outrageous ideas. And, you know, so after the Taliban took over, they hunted him down and beat the tar out of them. And then her daughter has Down syndrome. She has a young son and a daughter. Her daughter has Down syndrome, and before the Taliban took over, her daughter attended a school for special needs kids that was funded by foreigners. Of course, when the Taliban took over, that completely closed, right? Wow! And the Taliban, when they were threatening her, told her Uh, yeah, you know, we know about your daughter and she deserves to be beheaded. She's an abomination. That's what, that's what they— yeah, that's what they told her.

Okay, wow.

This is, this is the situation. And we got her and her family, you know, applying, you know, forcing the government to follow its own laws. We got her and her family settled here in the U.S. So her daughter's going to school, her son's going to school. She's working in a prosecutor's office in the US, so she's not, she's not, she's not yet able to practice law in the US, but she's working in a prosecutor's office. So she's still helping put bad guys, uh, in prison, just doing it for us now, right? And like, you know, that's situation, you know, that's one situation. And there are, you know, there are others, um, success stories that are just like, well, this is why we do this, right? You know, I think about the comparison of the life her daughter could have here and is having here versus the life her daughter would've had if they'd stayed in Afghanistan.

Wow.

And if she had even survived the Taliban's, you know, retribution.

Uh, I must tell you, it's really worth every effort. That's just amazing. Wow.

And, and the, the worst part are the failures, you know, and the failures are maddening. You know, they're, they're, there's, this is a very bureaucratic process. Um, The government is, is not like— it's very hard to access common sense in the government. Um, it's so— it's very bureaucratic. You have a date written in the wrong date format, case denied. And it's like insanity. Like, it's, it's insanity to think that people's lives depend on bureaucratic detail. Yes, but in this work, they do. And, and so, you know, we— there's— there I am unfortunately in contact with lots of bona fide wartime allies who are not going to be able to come to the US. And for, for some of those people, I don't know the whole story, so maybe there's a good reason. You know, the government has access to information that I don't have. But for, for other— for, for others of those people, I'm thoroughly convinced there is no good reason. It's a dumb bureaucratic reason that they can't come. And, uh, that's hard to live with. So, you know, there's a lot of— yeah, I, I feel like in this, in this line of business, I feel like I'm fighting the Taliban and my own government simultaneously to, to save people that stood with us in wartime. And it's not a good feeling.

So I was going to ask you that later during the show, but let me ask you now, uh, for those who are watching and want to help in some small ways, what can we do to support you and the work that you are doing?

Yeah, so that's great. So follow me, you know, like I'm pretty active on LinkedIn, so you can follow me on LinkedIn, or I'm on Facebook or Twitter or Bluesky. I'm on all that. So you can track me down, follow me there. And I— it is not rare for me to say, hey folks, I need you to do this, and, you know, put something there. So that's one way. Look up Afghan Evac, my organization. You can donate to them if you don't have anything but cash. That helps. We spend a lot of time in Washington, D.C. Talking to policymakers and lawyers, that takes money to go to DC and talk to those people. So if all you have is money, AfghanEvac will put it to good use. So that's another thing you can do. And something that people overlook is write your elected officials. And in the military, you can do this. Nothing wrong with this at all. To privately write your federal elected officials is A-okay. And urge them not to abandon our Afghan wartime allies. People think— people don't write their elected officials because they think they never read it or they don't— it doesn't matter, they're not going to care. But that's absolutely wrong because, you know, I worked with hundreds of congressmen and their staff for over a year, and the one thing that was the same between the most liberal, the most conservative, the most Democratic, the most Republican— the one thing they all had in common is they loved reelection. More than anything else in the world. And they, they, each of them know that somebody who writes in or calls or emails is somebody who's likely to vote. And they pay very close attention to that. Like, I have had congressmen quote emails the constituents have sent to them, quote them to me. And so they're reading them because they, they want to get reelected more than anything else. And they know that, that emailers and writers and callers are likely voters. And so They may not do what you want, they may not agree, but they, but they are absolutely paying attention and counting how many people are saying this versus how many people are saying that. 100%, they're paying attention to it. So write them, call them, it does matter. And so, you know, a lot of what I do is try to get people over their apathy and to actually write their elected officials and say something controversial like, we should not abandon our wartime allies to their enemy.

Yes. Well, it's very important what you just said because sometimes we do feel that sense of empathy, like I'm one and only one person, there's much I can do all by myself. But the truth is many people feel just like you. So if you get together, even if it's just a little bit, never despise small beginning, you can do something. If not for everybody, at least for one person. And that's really, really huge, the impact you can have.

In particular for writing your elected officials, I have a funny story. Multiple told me that they assume that everybody that takes the time to send them an email that there's probably hundreds of people that feel that way that aren't taking the time to send the email, right? So in effect, even if you're the only person on the planet that holds this view, if you write an elected official and tell them that, they're going to assume that hundreds of people think that. So it's like a chance for you to have an outsized voice.

Good to know. Thank you so much. So, uh, let's, uh, move over to the second portion of the show where I focus solely on leadership. So you, you've had a very interesting and wonderful career in the US Navy as a commander and as an IT executive in higher education. What do you think is the secret to your success?

So one of the secrets to my success has been organization. So I do think that like hours spent at work is a terrible metric for how effective somebody is or how dedicated they are, right? And I'm a super organized person. You know, you could You can still see I'm using written planners to this day. I've always been super organized. And I think that mastering organization, master your inbox. If people are telling you that I sent you that email and you're like, "I never saw that," and then later you dig through your email and they did send it to you, right? That's a warning sign. You need to get yourself organized. There's lots of email management strategies out there. We would do a whole whole separate podcast on that. But my point is, like, get yourself organized so that the time you spend working is highly productive. Like, you want— you want— you don't want to spin your wheels. You want high-traction stuff. It's not about the hours you put in, it's about the impact that you're having, like you say, right? And so, you know, I think one of the secrets to my success, you know, the successes I've had, is I have always— even going back to when I was an ensign, for some reason I just had the knack, the bug, the inclination to, to organize everything. And it's, it's really, it's been, it's been an aid. You know, people, people send me an email, I'm gonna read it. And just that, that alone, that small skill alone, is it buys me so much political capital, uh, that I can, that I can wield to do other things.

Yes.

Uh, you know, so, um, you know, if you're not organized, get organized. That would be my, my That's my leading advice.

True. And I believe in my career, one pivotal moment was when I became the admin officer. You have to be super organized to be an admin officer for a huge unit. And I think that successfully prepared me to be executive officer and then eventually commanding officer, because it's not just about taking care of yourself, but taking care of everybody in your unit, making sure you get your evals, fit reps on time, and all of that. It is a lot of work, but yes, organization is definitely key. So what do you think is the greatest lesson you have ever learned?

Just, yeah, I think, I think the thing I learned, you know, because I didn't realize this going in, was the importance of people's emotions. Like, you know, the, the, the how highly relevant those are. Like, I, you know, when I was an O-1 ensign, I wouldn't have guessed that that would be like the super critical thing to pay attention to. Wouldn't have guessed it. It wasn't what I was paying attention to. Like, I believed the leadership principles that said know your people and look out for their welfare. I was like, yeah, okay, I got it. But I didn't like internalize that to the point where I was like, yeah, not, you know, people's emotions are highly relevant to mission accomplishment. Like, you know, there's a thing called emotional IQ. You should work on, you know, everybody should work on improving their emotional IQ, which basically just means being able to be aware of and detect people's emotions and how they're, how they're, they're, they're feeling. And yeah, you've got, you've got on there, they're on the screen. It's perfect. The, uh, uh, because, because like I said, you know, it's real— everything is really about the people. The— it's not— nothing is, nothing is just hardware related, nothing is just technology related, nothing is just policy related, right? It's all about the people. People are going to be the solution, people are going to be the problem. And I, I've met a lot of leaders, again, especially in the IT world, that, that sort of discount people's emotions, that are like, it doesn't matter what they feel about it. You know, and I was like, well, it's like saying it doesn't matter what gravity is. It's like, like this force exists whether you think it should matter or not. It's holding everybody to the ground. And the same thing with everybody's emotions, whether you think they should matter or not, they matter. And, you know, the, the— it's a learning, learning that lesson and then learning how to be more smart about leading, knowing that. You know, it'll influence the way you approach giving orders. It'll influence the way you'll approach making unpopular decisions. Like, all of this, like, it doesn't mean cater to people's emotions. It doesn't mean don't do the hard thing. It doesn't mean always keep your people happy no matter what. It doesn't mean any of that. It just means recognize that whatever's going on, their emotions are important, and you need to be aware of what's going on there. And use that to inform how you're leading. That's something I know now that I did not know when I started.

Wow. Mission first, but people, people always. Okay, so what are you learning right now?

Yeah, so like from the, like, to be technically and tactically proficient aspect, right? I'm still learning the ins and outs of U.S. immigration law 3 years into this game. So like part of the tactically proficient part, I'm still, I'm still learning that a lot. I'm grateful on my gratitude list. I'm grateful for— there's— I work with a lot of people who know this stuff cold and are willing to share and help, help me in that. So that's definitely something I'm learning. On a more like personal side, I'm learning how hard it is to be a consistent writer and to, to, you know, finish a book and then get it published. So I've learned a lot about the publishing industry and what, you know, what is the— what is a book's journey from idea to publishing. Um, so I've learned a lot about that, and I've learned a lot about myself, about like, what does it take, um, to be a consistent writer who's making progress toward your goals, you know, who's going to finish this book and get it published, right? Like, what is— wow, I'm learning a lot about myself, about what it takes to, to do that and what I'm good at in that regard and what I'm not so good at in that regard. Uh, so those are kind of my learning journeys at the moment.

That is powerful. My primary mentor says there are 5 major disciplines to professional development, and he writes every single day. He has published more than 90+ New York Times bestselling books, but he says every single day, whether it feels like it or not, he thinks, he writes, he asks questions, he files, and there is one more thing. I can't think of the fifth one now, but anyway, every single day he's doing something towards that. He's always, always writing. Asking questions and failing and thinking about the subject. That's how you become a master at whatever you do. That is quite powerful. So how has— we know about all of your successes, but how has failure shaped your life?

Yeah, so like, I'm a chess player. I'm not very good, but hey, I'm a chess player. And I've discovered that I learn a lot more from losses. I like to play on Chess.com, which has a great analysis tool that will analyze the game you just played. And, you know, give you advice. Probably talking too much about chess, but one of the wonderful things about chess is that everything is your fault. Like, there is no luck involved, right? There is no luck involved. There is no, like, physical skill involved, right? Every single move that's available to a chess master is available to me, and if I don't take it, that's my fault. That's on me, right? Like, so, like, there is no deflection in a chess loss. And what I've discovered when I analyze both my losses and my wins, but boy, do I learn more from my losses because, you know, knowing that if I lost, it's because something I did creates this motivation to figure out what was it I did that put this game on the losing track for me and to go back and figure out where that was. And that is, I learned so much more from that than I do from the games that I win because the games that I win, I go like, "Ah, I did perfect," which is like, no, probably not. You probably lucked out. Your opponent probably overlooked your mistakes. And, you know, a different opponent would, would make you pay for 'em, you know? Wow. So, so what I, what I've learned about failure, I guess, or how, how has failure changed me is I've, I've learned to sort of lean into the, the fact that failure is the best teacher, that failure is, failure is where you're gonna learn the most valuable lessons that will lead to future successes. And, you know, something the military's good at that, the, the, I think people that are in the military enter the civilian world with an edge up on this, and that is the ability to exist in discomfort. Like, the military, you know, does a lot of this with— in boot camp with physical discomfort, but there's also, you know, emotional discomfort. It's like very— military is good at inflicting various levels of— in dimensions of discomfort, right? But one of the things the military is very intentional about teaching you is that even though you're uncomfortable, you can function, you can think, you can act, Like the fact that your discomfort is not an emergency. It's unpleasant, but it's not something that needs to like ruin your day. It doesn't need to keep you from being effective. Right. And, and so like failure, failure is, is very uncomfortable. Like it's not a pleasant feeling. It's very uncomfortable. But the Navy, the Navy helped teach me that that's okay. It is uncomfortable. I, you know, it does, it is creating a lot of discomfort. I can still learn from it. I need to tolerate that discomfort. I need to look for the hidden gems, right? And if I succeed in, if I succeed in learning from this failure, I'm gonna be better set up for successes in the future.

Wow.

And so anyway, that's, that's how I try to, and you know, I'm a work in progress. Sometimes I do that better than others. Sometimes I fail and I'm completely bitter and I don't learn a thing. But I, you know, so you might say, you might say what I think is aspirational, right? But I think that that's the way that, that leaders ought to approach failure.

Well, that is so great. And two things you said— definitely I believe in extreme ownership. Now, if anything is wrong, you have to look in the mirror, right? Uh, like that old song, it's me, it's me, it's me, oh Lord, looking for— it's not my brother, not my sister, but it's me, it's me. So that's, that's very, very important. I think in the military we pretty much teach, teach you how to take responsibility. But at the same time, though, I'm gonna push just a little bit back. I think sometimes you can be a little bit lucky too, right? Because sometimes in life, somebody else can have even better skills or education, certification, or similar background maybe, but you get the job, you get to be CEO, and they don't. And that pretty much separates who's going to become a captain or a one-star and who is not. So sometimes I think you just get lucky. But yeah, I love everything you've said. So let me ask you this.

Yes, I didn't mean— I did— sorry to interrupt you. I didn't mean to interrupt you, but before we move on from that point, I didn't mean to suggest that every failure is your fault, right? That's— it's true in chess. It's not true everywhere. You know, the, the— it's absolutely true that sometimes, sometimes the failures that you're experiencing were not avoidable. I still, you know, even in those cases though, I think the, uh, the, the right strategy is to tolerate the discomfort and look for, look for lessons.

Absolutely. I guess one of my mentors says, no, the setback is a setup for a comeback. So as long as you stay resilient and keep learning— like another one of my mentors says, sometimes you win, but sometimes you learn, not fail.

Yeah, that's a good way to say it. Yeah, I like that.

Wonderful. So who are some of the people that you follow, some of your thought leaders right now?

Yeah, you've got Chad Hill up there. So I think that he is emulating— he's displaying great leadership. Especially in his use of social media. And if you follow him at all, what you're gonna see is tons of empathy for subordinates. You're gonna see tons of emotional IQ. Like, it's gonna be obvious that that's a man who believes that— he labels it morale, right? He says morale is absolutely essential to mission accomplishment. And he says morale has nothing to do with sailors being happy. Like, that's not what morale is. But morale, true morale, is absolutely necessary for Mission accomplishment. And, and Chowdhury Hill, I think, is doing an outstanding job of, of, of displaying that behavior, both for, both for people in the Navy, but also people outside the Navy who, you know, because he's, he's charismatic and popular and funny, that, that people get this glimpse into military leadership and go, oh, you know, I guess, you know, empathy is, is an important part of military leadership too, which it obviously is.

Well, that's powerful. And by the way, I'm trying to get Captain Chris Early on the Leadership and Success Podcast. Hopefully he's going to be one of our guests soon. And what about this one?

Yeah, Des Walker is another person I haven't met, Desmond, but he's somebody else that I ran across on social media. It was like, oh, check this guy out. You know, I followed him just as he was taking command of his ship and sort of followed his postings as he took his ship through his workup cycle and took it into combat in the Red Sea. And, you know, I think that he's also somebody who is like displaying traits that I admire and traits that I feel I'm like weak on. Like, you know, the, I don't know, he just, like he exudes this confidence and positivity, like we're gonna get this done, you know? And I think it's inspiring in a way that I don't think I inspire people, you know, that I think is, anyway, admirable. So I think he's another good person to follow.

I must tell you another thing admirable about you, it is that self-awareness and humility, I think, actually make some of the best leaders I've ever met. So let me ask you, if you could choose 3 people to have dinner with, they could be alive, dead, or mythical figure, who would you choose and why?

Yeah, so I think there's, I'm gonna pick people that I don't know because they're the people I'd wanna spend more time with. Right? Uh, some of the people I know that I don't know. Um, so like I would probably put General Mattis on that list.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I would put Colin Powell on that list. I see you've got Colin Powell's book behind on the shelf behind you.

Yeah.

And I put James Baker on that list, uh, who was a former Secretary of State, if you don't know.

Yeah.

Yeah. Um, uh, and, um, I think all three of those people, uh, you know, Mattis and, and Powell obviously have military backgrounds. I'm not actually sure if James Baker served in the military or not, but he's most well known as being a highly effective Secretary of State. And they, you know, I think I would love to talk to them about their journeys and the challenges that are facing us today. And what should we do? Because it's like they're super smart, they're super accomplished. The list could go on. I'd love to have Condoleezza Rice. Like, I mean, there's a ton of people that I don't know that I'd love to have lunch with that I feel like I could learn a lot from. But, but those are 3, you know.

James—

one of James Baker's accomplishments as Secretary of State was he was, he was highly effective at influencing people, um, that didn't want to be influenced. And it's like, it's like, well, that's real. There's a real knack for that, especially in international relations. And he was— he excelled at that. And You know, part of, part of my leadership challenges now, this was, this was true in the Navy and it was true in my civilian career, um, is especially true now is I need, how do I, how is it that I influence people who don't work for me? Right. I want these people who, who have no responsibility to listen to me. I want them to listen to me and I want to influence what they do, even though there's no formal reporting relationship. I think, I think the people on that list excel at that. Like they're, they're very good at influencing people who don't have to listen to them, right? And I think that, I think that would be really useful skill for me.

Yeah, that is leadership. Powerful. Okay, what are some of the books that you recommend?

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so I love books, so I'm glad you're— we're moving on to this and make sure we get this in before we run out of time. The book you've got up there, Man's Search for Meaning— I want you to forgive and ignore the sexist language that's a sign, you know, a sign of the times that it was written. Okay. He's talking about humankind. He's talking about all people. And, you know, this book, I couldn't— I can't believe that nobody made me read this book until I was in my 40s. And finally somebody made me read it because this, this really changed my perspective on, on, on the point of life and, and also changed my perspective on On trauma and tragedy. And like, he's got some, like, he's got some surprising insights into this.

I highly recommend this because at least a dozen people, no, half a dozen people this year alone, I have recommended this book.

Oh, it's, yeah, it's life-changing.

What about this one?

Yeah. Zach's Network for People Who Hate Networking. I was forced to read this as part of a leadership program and it was great. And we read two books at the same time. The other one, was called Never Eat Alone, which is a networking book obviously written for extroverts who are like, yeah, I never eat alone. If you're eating lunch alone, you're wasting a networking opportunity, right? Like, to me, people that think that way, they don't need books on networking, right? They just be themselves and they're going to end up with a crowd of people who know them, right? The people who need to—

I guess that you are an introvert.

And I have a lot of— believe it or not, this is maybe something people don't really know about me because I don't always act it. Believe it or not, I have a lot of introverted tendencies. Like, I get, I get recharged if I'm in a room by myself with a book. And, you know, interacting with people can wear me out. And so, like, you know, I am not somebody who's like— I am perfect. I enjoy eating lunch alone. Like, the advice, never eat alone, that sounds horrible to me. But this book, this book, that book is full of advice for the rest of us, right? The people who, who, for whom networking doesn't come naturally. That's who needs the book and that's who that book is written for. It's got great advice for those folks.

Powerful. And this one?

Yeah, this is another life-changing book. Kendi's approach to racism in America was also like, like life-changing for me. Like he, you know, his basic approach was he defined racism in a very clear, concise way that makes perfect sense. And then, you know, and it's always— it's not necessarily the definition that you think of when you hear the word racism. And then he applied that definition to the world, including himself, and his critical examination of his own racist ideas and tendencies forces the rest of us to do the similar self-examination. Like, when he's examining himself for us, we're going along with him and having to take a look at ourselves. And then he also convinced me that there is no such thing as a neutral position. Like, the idea of not being— if all you are is not racist, then you're aiding the racists. Like, they're— like, when they're— when there is an oppressor and somebody being oppressed, a bystander is not neutral. A bystander is helping the oppressor, right? And so, like, if you want to rid the world of racism, you must be an anti-racist. It is not enough to simply be not racist. Anyway, read that book, it'll explain it all. And this is— this, this last book, Crucial Conversations, ought to be required reading for every leader because, you know, the hardest thing a leader has to do is have difficult conversations with people. And, uh, this book offers like— it's super practical. It's not a bunch of highfalutin theory. It's like, oh, you're going to have a crucial conversation, you know, here's— here are the things you need to do. And it's like checklist form, so it's like super clear. It's like it says, it's tools for talking. It's super clear, it's super concise. And, you know, it— if, if you don't feel like— I mean, even if you think you're good at having hard conversations, you're probably not. But that book will make you better.

That is awesome. Can you give me 5 more minutes or do you absolutely have to leave?

No, I don't have anything after this, so I can stay as long as you want.

Thank you.

Thanks so much. We are almost at the end, almost at the end. But let me ask you this important question. If you had a magic wand and you could solve any problem in the world, what problem would you like to solve and why?

I think that I would want to wave a magic wand and have people gain more empathy. For others. People, people love to harden themselves up with calluses. And these days, in this political environment, it seems to be somewhat, uh, uh, current, or what— I don't know what the trendy— it seems trendy to be, to be hard and, and, and display lack of empathy. Like, like people, like, for some reason empathy has become a dirty word. People are saying if you're empathetic you're weak, right? Which is I don't know where that concept comes from, but like, if I were to wave a wand, I would increase the level of empathy in this world because the root cause of a ton of our problems is a lack of empathy. And people, and people, you know, you know, both lacking the empathy to begin with, but then also, you know, down-talking the importance of empathy and saying that not only is empathy not something to achieve, but people who do have empathy are weak. Like, you know, it's not just a lack of empathy. You have people working against empathy. Arguing that empathy should go away. Um, you know, and it's the— it's one of the root causes of much of the evil in this world is a lack of empathy, because it really makes all of us human.

Uh, because if you look at everybody else as a human being like, like you are, you will not be treating them a certain way. Um, yeah, that's definitely the type of world we, we want. Okay, so let me ask you, I guess this is the One of the last questions: if you had one and only one day to live, what would you have liked your final contribution to be?

Yeah, so like, I think this is something also important for leaders to keep in mind. If I had one day left, it's going to be all about my family that day. And I think that's an important, an important thing to remember for leaders is that not only are you much more than your job,, but all of your people are much more than their jobs. And, you know, another— this was actually on one of my— on my first midshipman cruise, the commanding officer of the submarine I was on gave us some advice as officer trainees. He says, let me tell you, there's going to be pressure to put in insane amount of hours. Don't. Put in an honest day's work and go home. And I thought that was great advice for a commanding officer of a submarine, which tends to be kind of a workaholic community. To, to, uh, you know, to offer. And, you know, uh, so I think, you know, if I had one day left, it's going to be about my family. And, you know, there's been some interesting books and articles written by hospice workers who are— their, their profession is spent with people who are in their last days. And uniform— uniformly, those workers tell us that nobody, as they approach the end of their life, not one says, "I wish I had spent more time at work." Not one of them. Not one. Right? And so, like, I think, I think that as we're all going through our leadership journeys, as we're all spending time at work, I think that's important to keep in mind.

It's, it's, it's a, it's a, you know, be effective at work, be successful at work, be a good leader, accomplish great things at your organization, and keep in mind what's also really important, uh, you know, That is really, really key, especially for those who are in difficult position, like in the military where you travel all the time, you are away from your family sometimes for a year or a year and a half or two. One thing I started thinking, especially when I was enlisted, I'm like, wow, it looks like the Navy just issues you everything. Like I don't have to buy anything, my shoes, my uniform, everything. I like, I'm like, I wonder if they're just going to issue me a wife after I put in 20 years.

Yeah.

Also, and my wife in your sea bag.

Don't want to be with me anymore. But yeah, but, but really, what does it profit you, right, to gain the entire world after a great, great career in the Navy and all those accomplishments? You go home, your kids don't want to talk to you, they hate you, and your wife hates you. I mean, what kind of life is that? So, okay, uh, another question I want to ask you. So this is normally where I would come and say thanks so much for your time and, uh, being one of our teachers and giving us so much wisdom and insight. And what can we do for you? So We've kind of already covered that, so we ask people to follow you on LinkedIn for all of your updates, but also if they can, to please support afghanevac.org. Let me see. Yep, that's better here. No, uh, hold on, you here. Here we go. Uh, and people can go there, take, take action, uh, donate. Again, so you, you don't have to But for people who follow my show, you know when I ask people to give is to only give $5 because to me $5, anybody and everybody can participate, right? So cost of what, Starbucks cup of coffee. And I think anybody and everybody can do that. Please consider that and I really, really do appreciate it. Okay, so Commander Seddon, we are pretty much at the end now. So let me ask you, oh, before I do that, Is there a question I should have asked you that I haven't asked yet?

Gosh, I don't know. I think we hit all the important ones.

Okay, very good. All right, so this is probably the most important question from my perspective. If you could go back and give a piece of advice to your 17-year-old self, standing at the edge of this incredible career you've had both in the Navy and in IoEd, What would you say to 17-year-old James?

Yeah, well, I would say, I would say, pay, you know, that lesson I told you I had learned that I didn't know right away about the importance of people's emotions. I, I would say, look, kid, uh, you know, under, if you're gonna be a leader, understanding people's emotions and, and, and, and, and, you know, how is it you lead taking those emotions into account, uh, is I think I would say that's super important and nobody's going to tell you it's super important. So, you know, that would be one thing I would say. The other thing I would say is, you know, try to reassure that 17-year-old self that he can do it because there is a lot of self-doubt and fears. And, you know, I would tell that 17-year-old self it's okay to be uncomfortable. It's okay to be afraid. That doesn't mean you're not going to succeed. It doesn't mean that you're not doing the right thing. Discomfort is not a great way to judge whether or not you're doing the right thing. These are all things I probably didn't realize when I was 17 that I wish I had known.

Very, very, very powerful. And what you say about EQ is so important. Like, I live in Silicon Valley. I think our IQ here is probably off the chart from most places. But our emotional intelligence, we definitely absolutely need to work on. Yeah. Because we have a lot of very, very smart, well, geniuses really, but kind of jerks too and don't care much about people's feelings, which we need to improve.

And those people will never be as effective as they could be if they would only pick up that skill.

True. All right. So we are coming toward the end. In less than a couple of minutes, we're going to be completely done. So this is going to be be, uh, rapid fire, right? Lightning round. Don't take too long to, to think. So let me ask you this: one word that defines great leadership. One word.

Uh, empathy.

Okay. Uh, morning routine or practice that keeps you grounded.

One— what was it?

Uh, morning routine or practice that keeps you—

gratitude. Gratitude journaling.

That's the Panda Planner.

I've never used the planner.

I'm gonna look into it. Okay. A book or a that changed your life?

I would say Man's Search for Meaning.

Yeah, that's the book we just talked about and it's been recommended at least 6 times this season. Thank you. So who inspires you the most today?

Oh gosh. Who inspires me the most today? Well, you're an inspiration having these conversations and keeping, you know, forcing these conversations to happen and putting them in public. So I think it's good. It's always good to see people fighting the good fight.

So, well, thank you. Thank you very much. However, I always feel uncomfortable when people choose me like this. This is only, I've been doing this for 4 years now. This season, at least 3 or 4 people have chosen me as the one who inspired them the most or one of the people they would have dinner with. It is okay. I accept it.

I've had dinner with you already.

Yeah. No, it's good because when I was CEO at Genos VR in South Fork, I started a new practice where at the end of every month I would choose a sailor in the spotlight. Pretty much, I'm putting the spotlight on you as my young guest. But I started with the least junior person in the unit and then they would give it to a person who impacted them the most that month and so forth. And then twice, two enlisted people selected me, the CEO, as the sailor in the spotlight. At first I was going to say, no, I can't accept it. But then I talked to my wife and she's much, much smarter than I am. She said, yes, you have to accept it. Because it really sets a precedent. But anyway, thank you, thank you so much. I really do appreciate it. So to finish, what did you want to be when you were a kid? I think you said a fighter pilot. So many people in the Navy would do. Okay, 3 adjectives describing you as a child.

Adjectives describing me as a child? Overoptimistic.

Okay, 2 more.

Overoptimistic.

2 more.

Oh, 2 more. You know, smart and disciplined. I was a pretty disciplined kid.

Okay, what about as an adult?

I think I am, you know, more realistic. I'm still pretty disciplined. That's helped. And I would say more empathetic.

Okay, and the last question is, what is one word that represents our shared experience in this podcast today?

A friendly and fun talk about leadership and what it means. That's probably— you probably asked me to say one word and I gave you 10. And we lost BZ. Hopefully he'll come back. Till then, we can all share an awkward silence. I guess I just saw something. So we were talking about failure earlier. I think when you gave me some questions to think about ahead of time, one of the things that he talked about was— and maybe I'm telling the story to nobody if it's just me here, but I'm going to tell it anyway in case people are here. You know, talk about a specific failure when we were talking about failure. One of the questions you told me to think about in advance was think about a specific failure for me that refined my leadership and deepened my maturity. And so I failed to select for O-5 the first time up, and that really broke my heart a lot. I thought I had a great record. I thought I had done what I needed to do. I had checked all the boxes. And when the O5 list came out, I was not on it. And what, what made that even worse was there was a complete knucklehead in my unit, uh, who I, I still think this, uh, wasn't half the officer I was, uh, that, that, uh, you know, had not accomplished the things I had accomplished, didn't have the fit reps that I had, uh, and he got selected for O5. So that was a big blow to me. Not just that I didn't select for O5. But that this officer who I didn't have a great opinion of did get selected, uh, for O5. Um, that, that really put a blow on me, especially when I knew that the second look of O5s, the, the selection percentage for second look O5s is tiny. So, you know, the chances of getting picked up for O5 if you fail to select the first time are somewhat dismal. Um, but I did try to learn from that experience and I, I did try to, you know, it was like I said, it, it hit me hard. So, there was a lot of discomfort. I tried to remind myself that I can tolerate that discomfort, and I really dug into my officer record, really dug into all of that guidance they say about reviewing your record before the board review and a bunch of stuff that I didn't think mattered. You know, I made some changes to my record. I got some additional documentation. I got some additional letters from prior COs to explain comments in fit reps. I did a bunch of stuff. And the second look, even though the chances were against me, I did get picked up for O5. So anyway, that's, that's, uh, a story. If, uh, if I'm not the only one here, uh, talking about a specific failure and how it helps me, uh, refine my leadership and my maturity, it really helps with my maturity. It was probably good for me in the end not to get, uh, not to get selected, uh, to make sure Uh, I keep displaying that humility, right? You know, uh, it was definitely a lesson in humility. All right, well, I'm not sure Bizzy's coming back, so I think I'm going to drop. If you're still here, thanks for sticking with me. It's been fun having this conversation. Hit me up on LinkedIn and we can talk more. All right.

All right, uh, James, okay, very sorry. This is what you do when you do your show live. Uh, I completely lost my, uh, internet. It is back now, but actually we were at the very end. I normally do not I will not edit this, but I will just edit that with what you said and then my outro. So, this is pretty much it. The very last question I had for you was one word that represented our shared experience on the podcast today. And that's it.

Yeah, I think I gave you 10 words in back. So, I think one word would be fun. I think this was fun. The 10 words was more like a fun conversation about what it means to be a leader.

Fantastic. Well, thanks so much. I'm really, really grateful for you being on the show. And again, thank you so much for your time and for really sharing your wisdom and insight. I appreciate that so much.

I'm honored. I'm honored to be here and that you thought of me as somebody who might be interesting to talk to. So thank you.

Absolutely. Thank you so much.

Bye. Bye-bye.

All right, everyone. This is exactly what happens when you do your show live on LinkedIn. Sometimes it doesn't happen often. I think I think this is the third time it's happened to me in the last 4 years. But anyway, thank you so much for being here. I will edit the show for those who are going to download it on all of the major podcast platforms like Apple Podcasts, Google, and Amazon, and everywhere you guys find your podcasts. And really quickly, tomorrow I'm gonna have the pleasure of speaking with my friend, best-selling author Mita Malik. Workplace Strategist and Top Voice. That's going to be tomorrow on Thursday. And then on Friday, I will have the great honor of speaking to 4-star General Glen VanHerck. He is the former commander for NORAD and US NORTHCOM. And the following Monday, my mentor, Dr. Tim Elmore, will be talking to us about the Gen Z playbook. What does it mean to lead Gen Z? Leadership 2.0. Alright, thanks so much for being with us today. Again, sorry, I lost my internet connection there for just a second, but, uh, uh, thanks again for being with us. Bye for now.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.