S4:E120🎙️ Live with Capt Michael Sugrue, USAF (Vet.)

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He shares how years of traumatic events culminated on one night in an officer-involved shooting that led to him leaving the police force and committing his life to helping first responders who are struggling.

I think there's a misconception where people think, you know, it's just one huge traumatic incident that breaks us. Or that really hurts us, but in reality, it's a combination of, you know, incidents year over year over year.

Michael Sugru joined the Walnut Creek Police Department immediately after serving as an Air Force officer for 6 years. Shortly after Michael was promoted to sergeant, he was involved in a shooting in December of 2012.

And that really forever changed me. It changed my path.

He says the toll the shooting took was greater than he ever imagined.

So I suffered in silence for 4 years. Um, after my shooting, I actually ended up on trial in federal court in San Francisco, even though we saved lives, we saved a couple's lives, we saved our own lives, we were sued. Um, during that process, I lost my marriage, my health started to fail. Um, literally everything around me was falling apart, and I got to the point where I didn't want to be here anymore.

His mental health got so bad, Sugru started to put himself in harm's way at work.

I believe that if I died in line of duty, my daughter would always be taken care of. She would never forget who her dad was. I would be a hero.

Finally, in 2018, he met a quickly retired from the police force and turned to helping other first responders dealing with post-traumatic stress injuries.

The biggest mistake I made was that I thought I would protect my family and my loved ones by not bringing work home. But when I come home in a bad mood or pissed off because of these horrible things I had to deal with and I had to see, I need to communicate that to my loved ones to say, look, you know, I had a really bad day.

This has nothing to do with you.

He says the support is necessary as law enforcement can be a lonely profession.

You know, we train on firearms, defensive tactics, use of force, laws of arrest, all these different things, but we don't train how to prepare ourselves for our greatest threat. Law enforcement officers are much more likely to die by their own hands than any other cause in the line of duty.

He hopes his story will help destigmatize the hardened culture often shared amongst first responders.

And because of this culture, it's looked at as being weak. It's looked at as being shameful. And many officers, including myself, I was scared to talk about this stuff because I thought I would be outcasted, that nobody would want to work with me. Nobody would trust me. Um, but what I found through my work is that so many are suffering in silence. And I tell people all the time, I'm not special. I'm not unique. I'm just willing to talk about it.

And the connections he forms now with the first responders he helps fills the gaps left from his time as a police officer.

And, and I miss it.

I gotta tell you, I miss it. It was in my heart. It was my everything. And that's what the people need to know, is that we're out there doing it all. We care. We care about you. We care about our families, and we're willing to die for you.

So Michael has written a book alongside a psychologist about his experience. He hopes others will read it and seek help when they need it. Before it gets dire. His book, Relentless Courage: Winning the Battle Against Frontline Trauma, is available throughout many online booksellers.

All right, everyone, welcome to the second episode of the Leadership and Success podcast today, Monday, December 1st, what we call today our Mental Health Day. This morning, I had the pleasure to speak with James Corbett. And now I am with Captain Michael Sugrue. He's also a retired sergeant from the Walnut Creek Police Department. Before I introduce Michael, let's do what is our custom, which is to take just a moment to be grateful, right? We call it moment of gratitude. We did it this morning. Let's do this again.

So basically, you know what to do. We're going to take just a moment.

If you want to close your eyes, you can.

Take a deep breath, put yourself in your happy place, and think about one thing that you are grateful for today.

Like I said this morning, I am really grateful to live in America and for all of the technology, the medicine, and everything we've got available to take care of not just our physical health but our mental health as well, right?

When people are physically wounded, everybody sees it, everybody knows it, and people are not afraid afraid or ashamed to ask for help.

But when somebody is wounded mentally, sometimes it's still kind of a stigma, and that really needs to stop. You need to ask for help when you need it, and there are so many avenues for help in America today. So hopefully this episode is going to help some of you watching where you can get better mentally.

So let me see if I can introduce our guests really quick. Today we are, uh, talking with Michael Sogou. So Michael pretty much began his law enforcement career in the U.S. Air Force as a security forces officer in 1998. And Michael specialized in law enforcement, global force protection, anti-terrorism, nuclear security, foreign airfield assessment, and air base ground defense. So he served in a variety of assignments and Michael served all over the United States, Europe, and the Middle East, and South America.

He was also a Security Force Phoenix Raven with unique identifier of 1173, and he honorably separated from the Air Force as captain in 2004. Immediately afterward, he joined the Walnut Creek Police Department where he served as a patrol sergeant, and he was awarded the Walnut Creek Police Department Distinguished Service Medal in 2014 for his heroic and life-saving action during a fatal officer-involved shooting in 2012. Michael ultimately medically retired in 2018.

He's now a peer volunteer at the West Coast Post-Trauma Retreat and an ambassador for Save a Warrior. Michael is a dedicated advocate for awareness, prevention, education, training on post-traumatic stress injury and first responder suicide prevention. Michael continues to speak at law enforcement agencies all over the United States. And he's also the number one bestselling author of Relentless Courage: Winning the Battle Against Frontline Trauma along with Dr.

Shawna Springer. They tackle the complexity of trauma within the law enforcement community, uncovering the unspoken barrier, and outline a path to healing.

So ladies and gentlemen, if you would please help me welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast, Michael Sugrue. Good afternoon, Michael. How are you doing today?

I'm doing outstanding. How about yourself?

Fantastic. Thank you so much for making the time to speak with us today. We've been trying to plan this for, for a while.

Really admire everything you, you do and continue to do, not just of the military, but, uh, first responder and law enforcement as well.

Maybe to get started, uh, is there anything that you are grateful for today?

My daughter. So my 15-year-old daughter is my absolute everything. And she is the reason why eventually I asked for help. And so, you know, my purpose, obviously I'm here to help military members, service members, first responders. But my first and foremost duty is being a father and a dad to my beautiful daughter.

Wow, that is so wonderful. Is there something maybe about you that most people may not know?

I like to collect retro Air Jordans. So it's kind of a Yeah, it actually started again when I was undercover. So I went undercover back in 2009 and I'd always liked the retro Air Jordans. I wore them in high school and college, but I kind of stopped wearing them and collecting them. And because of my undercover assignment, I needed a new look and it sucked me right back into that addiction. And so now I literally have hundreds and hundreds of retro Air Jordans.

That's pretty cool. I'm sure they're going to be worth quite a fortune for your daughter one day.

Wonderful.

And maybe can you take us back maybe through your leadership journey, your background on how you joined the Air Force and then the police department and then all of the work that you are doing now to really bring awareness about PTSD and mental health?

Absolutely. So my interest in the military and law enforcement started as a child. My stepfather was in law enforcement and He was my hero, my role model, my everything. And so I set myself up for a career. At first I thought it was going to be federal law enforcement. And so I knew to do that I needed a 4-year degree and I needed some work experience. So I decided to look into the military and I ended up getting a full scholarship through the Air Force to California State University, Sacramento. And initially my commitment was only going to be 4 years. I was going to get out. And then go right into like the DEA or the FBI or the Marshals. But a lot of things happened. First and foremost, I was exposed to a lot of federal agencies and I realized quickly that that's not what I wanted to do. I want to do more boots on the ground, you know, wearing a uniform, driving a black and white patrol car and being out there on the streets, interacting with people every single day. I ended up staying in longer. While I was in Germany, actually, 9/11 happened, and a short time after that, I found myself in the Middle East, and I ended up extending my time in the military, and I stayed in 6.5 years active duty. I got stationed back here in California at Travis Air Force Base. I was the chief of security forces, and at that point is when I started looking into civilian law enforcement and applying to different agencies. In the San Francisco Bay Area, eventually hired by the Walnut Creek Police Department. And I'll tell you that, you know, my whole career, both in the military and civilian law enforcement, I always had a plan. I always wanted to aspire to do greater and bigger things. And I hope to be actually a police chief someday in the civilian law enforcement world. But again, a lot of things happened. I'm sure we'll go into that. And things changed. And I did retire, as you said. But now my purpose is to just smash the stigma when it comes to talking about mental health.

Yeah, I think that is so important.

And I know there was a real stigma when I first joined the Navy 21 years ago. People didn't want to talk about it, and they were really suffering silently. And I think part of the reason back then, 20 years ago, is, uh, if you let anybody know in your command, you were actually at high risk of losing your job because you would more than likely lose your security clearance, and then you would be of no good to the Navy. So people really didn't want to talk.

Now, that has changed a lot since then, thank God.

And I think it is so important for all of us to really keep our mental health, uh, really, you know, in a, in a good shape, the same way we take care of our bodies.

There really should be no stigma at all.

But looking back, what leadership lessons you think from your Air Force days still guide you today?

One that just stands out first and foremost is when I was a brand new lieutenant, I had got assigned to F.E. Warren Air Force Base in Wyoming, where we dealt with ICBM nuclear weapons. And I remember my first day, my commander, she was a lieutenant colonel, she was a missileer. She sat me down with my NCO. He was a tech sergeant, Pat Johnson, actually. And he had been working in the missile fields for literally decades. And this man was an expert. He was a leader. And one of the first things she said was that, you see that man next to you to your right? He's like, just, you need to shut up, sit down and listen to him, and he's going to show you the way. And it's, it's kind of hard to hear at first because, you know, you're coming right out of college, you've been through boot camp, you've been through officer training, and you're, you know, technically you're a commissioned officer, you're a second lieutenant, or what we jokingly called a butter bar. And the point is that there's still a lot of things to learn. And I think the most important lesson is to trust the people, you know, in your circle, whether they're above you, below you, or their peers.

Yes.

And to, to rely on them, to, to understand that you can't do it all your own, that truly it is a team effort, it's a team environment. And when you function as a true team, as a cohesive unit— and what was so important in my unit, I was a flight commander, I had 60 people that I was supervising. But as a leader, the people underneath us, our subordinates, needed to see that myself and my flight sergeant, you know, Sergeant Johnson, that we trusted each other and that we were a cohesive team that worked together. And I think when they— when your people see that and they trust in you, then great things will happen.

Wow, that is really powerful. And by the way, we do have some people watching live. We have Al Labuada.

Saying God bless. And we have Ibanga, uh, Iban, who says hi and nice meeting everyone today.

And, uh, Al and Ibanga, if you please let us know where you are joining us from, what city or state, and also if there is anything you are grateful for right now.

And if you have a question for Michael, please type it in the comment as well.

So Michael, when you transition from the Air Force. Let me ask you this, uh, can you kind of walk us through the transition from Air Force captain to police officer and kind of what made you choose a second high-risk profession?

Well, interestingly enough, there's the police academy, right? So that period of when I left the Air Force as a captain and then I had to go through a full police academy and Funny enough, my drill instructors in the police academy were former enlisted Marines.

Wow.

And so the second they found out that I was an Air Force sergeant, you can imagine that I got the business. So really the first step was, you know, humbling myself and putting aside my rank and my previous experience. And again, now starting this police academy, I'm in there with, you know, approximately 30 other you know, students, all men and women who want to become police officers with various backgrounds, various, you know, family situations and whatnot, various ages. And again, we had to work together as a cohesive team, as one. And we had alternating, you know, rotating leadership positions where one day or one week you may be a class leader, but then the next day or the next week, you know, you're back at the bottom of the totem pole. And so again, it's, it's really important to understand when it's your time to lead and when it's your time to follow. And so when I finally graduated that police academy, again, I go to my agency and you have to go through what's called the field training program, where you ride along with other senior sergeants for usually a few weeks at a time, and then you transition. And this takes place usually for um, you know, 2, 3, 4 months. And again, your job is to listen, to observe, to watch, and then to start doing, to start performing. And you learn the most by actually, you know, when you're out there on the streets dealing with, you know, sure, the academy, just like boot camp, it gives you some background and preparation, but the real learning happens, you know, boots on the ground when you're out there. And so again, you know, it's starting at the bottom and eventually working my way up. And I remember one of the first things, about a year and a half into my civilian, civilian law enforcement career, I applied to be one of those field training officers. And that was really my first leadership position where I was able to help mentor, shape, and train—

wow—

new officers out of the academy, but also senior officers who had lateraled from other agencies, whether it be in the San Francisco Bay Area or from different states. And so again, just very, you know, different, very important positions. But one thing I'll tell you is that, and again, it was part of the reason why I got the Air Force, is that as you move up in rank in the military, it's less hands-on. And I really wanted to be out there, like I said, in the field, dealing with the people, interacting, and just chasing that excitement and that adrenaline rush. And You know, I'll tell you that there is nothing like a career in law enforcement. If you think about like most of our combat veterans, you know, they're in a dangerous area or hostile area for a defined period of time. They may do that once in their entire military career. Maybe some people will do it 6 or 7, you know, times, which is a lot, our special operators.

Yes.

But when you look at our law enforcement officers, really, we're in combat every single day. And I'm talking, you know, 20, 30-year career. And I don't think most people really think about that. But every single stop, every single call, every single contact is a potentially lethal threat.

Wow. That's really something. Maybe let's talk about that fateful day in 2012.

I want to be as respectful as I can, but I know you have shared this a lot on social media. But I think it's going to help the people who are listening to us now.

So that was a 2012 officer-involved shooting that completely changed your life. What do you most want people to understand about that night?

You know, I won't go into great detail about that night. I will give a brief synopsis. I talk about it extensively in my book, but I want, I want people to know what led up to that before that actual incident happened, because I made a lot of mistakes in both my military career and my law enforcement career. And that biggest mistake was I didn't talk about all these horrible things that I was exposed to and that I dealt with. You know, for me, talking about feelings, showing emotions, showing humanity, that was all weakness. It was all shameful. And, you know, I didn't want people to look down upon me. I wanted to be the strong, invincible warrior. And the truth is, you can do both. I didn't realize that, but I didn't lean on my coworkers. I didn't lean on my wife at the time. I didn't lean on my supervisors or on peer support. You know, I didn't believe in therapists or psychologists or any of that stuff. I thought I could just bottle up all these things inside me and just push them away and they wouldn't affect me. And so what I want people to know is that it wasn't that my officer-involved shooting caused post-traumatic stress injury. For me, that was the tipping point. Um, you know, before even that shooting happened, I had been again in the military for 6 and a half years. I'd been deployed. I had had 8 years at this point civilian law enforcement. I was undercover 2 of those years on a California State Drug Task Force, which is basically like the state version of the DEA, and had been involved in just hundreds of critical incidents, just like all of our first responders. But again, I didn't process or talk about all these things. And so, when that shooting happened, that led to a downward spiral where, again, I didn't talk about it, I didn't use those resources. I started using negative coping mechanisms like drinking myself to sleep every single night, isolating, not wanting to be around other people, not wanting to talk to people. And it, and it led, again, it was a slow downward spiral. But eventually it led me to the point where I didn't want to be here anymore. I was literally trying to get myself killed in the line of duty. That's how bad and dark it got.

Wow, thank you so much for sharing. Uh, in the aftermath, what surprised you most about how trauma affects even our strongest leaders, those war fighters you're talking about?

Well, I think what surprised me the most was that while I was suffering in darkness for so long, I thought I was the only one. I thought there was something wrong with me. I didn't think it was normal. And in my recovery journey, once that started— that started in the beginning of 2017 and went on for several years— I quickly realized that all these things that I was experiencing, the negative effects on my physical health, on my mental health, on my relationships, it was all normal considering all the abnormal things that I had to see and deal with. But what's so ironic is that we need to normalize having conversations about this stuff and getting these things off our chest. And at that time, it wasn't normal. Um, nobody talked about this stuff. Nobody shared it. I didn't even realize till years later that there was other people in my own agency at, at various levels, whether it was peers or supervisors or subordinates who were also suffering in silence. And, you know, when I started this journey of speaking across the nation, when I wrote this book, I received messages almost daily from all over the world from other veterans, family members of veterans, first responders, their family members who share very similar experiences and aftereffects. And so again, you know, if there's people watching and listening to this, I assure you that you're not alone. And I assure you that the things that you're feeling and going through, again, are actually normal, given all the abnormal things that we have to see and deal with.

Wow.

So, around that time, you were awarded, like I said during the intro, the Distinguished Service Medal.

What was the emotional contrast between public praise and your private struggle?

Well, there's a lot more to this story, and I'm going to— it's a long story. I'm going to try to make it very short. But at this time, so after the shooting, the family of the members that we had to kill to save the lives of this couple that was barricaded inside their condominium— this guy with a huge knife was literally trying to stab through their bedroom door and kill this couple. Their, their family filed a federal lawsuit, and that went on for 4 years. And so during this time, it was, I want to say, about a year and a half after the shooting. The lawsuit's still pending. But my stepfather, who's my hero, he's the one that my book is dedicated to. You showed an image of him earlier, but he had been— right there— he'd been diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer at the age of 58. And so when this award ceremony happened, he was literally dying. I mean, he was wasting away, but he was able to go to the ceremony. And all I wanted was for him to see us actually get the Medal of Valor. I was involved in the shooting with 3 other officers, and we saved, again, the lives of a couple, of a man and a woman, who would have been killed had we not been there. And unfortunately, in my book and when I speak, I talk about something called administrative betrayal or institutional betrayal. And I was specifically told by higher-ups that our life-saving actions that night, even though we ran towards danger and we saved this couple, that it didn't meet the level of the Medal of Valor.

Wow.

And so, yes, exactly. So imagine that. Here I am, my father's dying, my hero, and I was told by my command staff that we, my officers and I, were not worthy of the Medal of Valor, that we were just doing our job and that it was dangerous, but it didn't rise to the level of Medal of Valor. And so to this day, that, that crushes me and it makes me so angry, so angry, because none of those people above me had ever been involved in any incident like this. None of them have ever been awarded either of those medals. And here we were doing our jobs, and my officers were absolute heroes. And they're heroes today, they're heroes that night, and they'll be heroes the rest of their lives. And I'm damn proud of all of them.

Thank you so much for sharing.

Really, that's not—

in my opinion, that's really what true leadership is all about. It's really about your people, taking care of them, even when you have a chain of command that sometimes doesn't understand or doesn't do The right thing. Wow.

Now, by reading your work, there is one thing I noticed.

Like in the military, we talked about PTSD, right? Post-traumatic stress disorder. But you mostly talked about PTSI, post-traumatic stress injury. So why is language so important in healing?

It's extremely important because it comes down to the stigma. For me, and I think for many others, the word disorder has a very negative connotation. It takes the power away from you as far as healing. It makes you think that you're stuck with this condition and that you can't do anything about it. And the reality is, by changing that one word from disorder to injury, it's much more accurate because post-traumatic stress is an injury to the brain. It's a physical injury to the human brain which is caused by usually repeated exposure, traumatic events. It can be caused by one single event, but in our cases of military members, first responders, again, it's an injury over and over caused by these horrific things that we have to see and deal with, and it causes a physical and chemical change to the human brain. Now, the important thing to know is that you can get better, you can recover from post-traumatic stress injury, right? Just like if you have a bad back or bad shoulder, bad knee, first responders have no problem when it gets bad enough to say, look, I need to get help for this, I need to see a doctor. You know, usually they send you to physical therapy, they try pain medication, maybe injections, maybe surgery, maybe more physical therapy. The point is there's a roadmap to healing, just like there's a roadmap to healing with post-traumatic stress injury. Now, I will tell you, just like your knee, your shoulder, your back, it's never going to be the same as it was before that injury, but it can get better. The same is true, in my opinion, that with post-traumatic stress injury, you're never going to be the same person that you were before you started your career in law enforcement or before you went to combat in the military. But again, with treatment and with time and with patience, you can get better. And I'm living proof of that. You know, I went from the darkest depths to literally not wanting to be here, to trying to kill myself in the line of duty, to now living a phenomenal life. I'm so blessed to be here. Thank you, Chief.

Wow.

And Michael, you can still hear me, right? I think we lost you a little bit just a minute ago. Okay, okay, I can hear you back.

So for the people who are watching right now, those who are listening, whether in the military or first responder, What do you want to say to them who might be going through PTSD right now?

First of all, I want to say that I understand it. I get it. But also know that countless of your brothers and sisters out there, they're also going to understand it. They're also going to get it. And there's endless resources out there that I had no idea about until I started this journey of recovery. Even in the back of our book, Relentless Courage, there's an entire resource section, things that are free, things that are confidential, things that, you know, people that you can talk to 24/7. Again, I want you to know that there's hope. I want you to know that there's help. Now, I will tell you that that fateful day when I finally asked for help after 4 years of struggling in silence, it was to this day the hardest and most difficult thing I've ever done in my life. More difficult than anything deployed in the military, more difficult than anything in law enforcement, including that shooting. But asking for help, to this day, the most difficult thing I did. But it saved my life, and I'm so glad I did it. And so if you're out there suffering in silence, please reach out to somebody you trust, somebody you love, or reach out to me. You can contact me any day on any platform. I'm out there. I'm available. If you need resources, I will point you in the right direction. But please just take that first step, and I guarantee you it'll be worth it.

Thank you so much.

And I know there is also a new number now for a couple of years now, like 911, but it's 988, and people can call to get immediate help. And like I was saying earlier when I started the show, I am really grateful for all of the resources we have available in this country. And I really like what you say. I understand it and I get it. And people really should be asking for help.

So let's talk about your number one best-selling book. I think this book is so crucial and you're really helping a lot of people with it, right?

It's been called one of the most important books of our time.

Why did you decide to tell your story publicly?

So it's a great— it's actually a great story. I never planned on any of this. I never envisioned it. It all started back in 2019 with a single podcast interview.

Wow.

A guy I didn't know, he was a former first responder. He was big into fitness. I was into fitness. I still am. And he hounded me for months to be on his show, and I didn't want to do it. And he eventually got me to the point where I couldn't say no. And, and thank God he did that, because when I first shared my story, again, I started getting messages from all over the world.

Wow.

And I realized that this was my true mission, this was my true purpose. And that led to interview after interview. Eventually it led to public speaking. And the story of the book, again, another miraculous story. I believe everything happens for a reason, but Yes, right before COVID happened, Dr. Shawna Springer— I didn't know her. I was connected to her on LinkedIn. She actually reached out to me and wanted to just have like an intro conversation to talk about what I was doing in the mental health arena and to see what she was doing. And it turned out that, you know, Dr. Shawna Springer, she's a Harvard graduate, she's a clinical psychologist, a PhD. And she worked for the Department of Veterans Affairs for many years as a clinical psychologist. And she had worked with hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands, of combat veterans. And at that point, she'd already written a couple books, I believe one or two by herself, and then collaborated with some other veterans. And in that call, I shared my story with her, my— the story that's in the book, and it goes all the way back to childhood. Until current day. And after hearing that story, she asked me, she's like, have you ever thought about writing a book? And I kind of laughed because I said, well, I very briefly thought about it. I said, but, you know, post-traumatic stress injury has really changed me. I've kind of lost a little bit of my focus. I've lost some of that drive and that concentration, and I'm just burnt out too of decades of report writing. And I just don't know if I can do something like that. And so we left the conversation at that. A couple weeks later, Dr. Springer hits me back up and she says, look, Michael, I can't stop thinking about your story.

Wow.

She said, I've heard hundreds and hundreds of stories, but your story, it's gonna save countless lives.

Yes.

And without even meeting her in person, literally our second phone conversation, she said, look, I wanna do this book with you. I want to make this happen. And I knew in my heart in that moment, I didn't even pause or hesitate. I said, let's do this. And yes, we didn't even meet for— because COVID then happened, and we didn't meet in person until like a year later. And we had been doing Zoom meetings every single week, over 2 hours long, going back and forth.

Wow.

And we, we came up, like I said, with this groundbreaking book, which there is no other book like it in the world that I know about. And the format is very unique because every chapter is split into two parts. The first part is my story told in my voice, but the second half of every chapter, Doc Springer comes in, she breaks everything down, she explains it in very easy-to-understand terms, you know, and then together we show a real pathway to healing. And that's why, I mean, this book is saving relationships. Saving careers, but it's saving lives around this world every single day.

Wow, that is really beautiful to see.

And we're talking about Dr. Shauna Springer, and you can find her on LinkedIn, and, uh, she has a PhD.

And yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's really powerful.

Wow.

Because you, you know, something about your, your book— let me ask you this. What was the hardest chapter for you to write?

I would say the chapter of my father, my stepfather. Um, you know, he's, he's my everything, and to lose him at 58 years old, um, and, you know, I, I mean, I had a phenomenal mother, I had a great upbringing, but I know in my heart I would not be here today where I'm at if it was not for my stepfather, for his guidance, his influence, his mentorship, but most importantly, his love. Not just his love for me, but his love for my mother, for my brothers. You know, he took me in and he treated me like his own. And yeah, so you know, just bringing up those memories of him, which were great memories, but just that reminder that he's no longer here with us. And, you know, hit the anniversary of his passing was only days ago, and every year this time of year, it just, it hits me right to the core. But I know he's still guiding me, he's still influencing me, and he's watching me over every single day. And so again, I just I owe it all to him, my hero, my everything.

Thank you so much for sharing. I think I really felt the same way about my mother when she passed away during COVID but, uh, it's really powerful, right, the impact people can have on others. I think it was Oprah who said, right, or maybe it was Maya Angelou, people will forget everything you say, but they will never forget the way you made them feel. And, uh, I really thank God for the work you are doing, Michael, because I think you are really helping change a lot of lives.

So when you wrote this book, I guess another question I have, what has been one of the most powerful responses you've received from a reader?

Because I know you have a lot of great ratings and feedback on Amazon too, but is there one specific response that comes to mind?

I'll tell you, and I challenge people watching this and listening to this, but, um, and I don't know of any other book like it, but if you go to Amazon, there's over 700 reviews. And these reviews, most of them are multiple paragraphs. They're very personal, they're very heartfelt, and literally talking about how this book has changed their lives, in many cases has saved their lives. And so, and I can't tell you the personal conversations, the phone calls, the text messages, the personal messages of just people sharing that with me. And it just, it drives me. Again, it gives me purpose to get up every single day. But to hear somebody tell you, you know, Michael, your book saved my life. Hmm. And to hear that over and over again. I mean, it's still just— it's like a dream. It's like it's not real, because this is the reason why Dr. Springer and I did this book. We did it to save lives, and to know that that's happening— and so that's why personally I try to get the word out as much as I can. I mean, every single day, because I know the power of it. And the hardest part of it is getting somebody to pick it up and to read it or to listen to it. You know, we have an Audible version recorded in our own voices, and when we went into the studio to do that, I relived every single moment. And so when you hear it and you hear Dr. Springer's voice, you hear my voice, and when you hear it, it's going to give you goosebumps. It's going to give you chills. I mean, it's— in some parts, it's going to make your stomach turn, but it's going to give you, at the end, hope. It's going to show you the light out of the darkness.

Wow, that is powerful. And, uh, we have a LinkedIn user that says, uh, let's sip to remember them all. Thanks, Michael, for your service and for writing your book. Yeah, that is so powerful. And I always, uh, encourage people to write a book because even long after you are gone, your book can still have an incredible effect on all of the other people. So again, for the people who are listening to us now, especially those in uniform and first responder and in law enforcement, um, what is one insight from the books that you think every leader must understand?

Again, I talk about this all the time, but I think as a leader, especially if you want or you expect, or you hope that your people, your subordinates, the people underneath you, the people that you're supposed to look after and manage and lead and love, if you want them to come to you in their darkest times, to open up and to share these things, you have to first be willing to be open and vulnerable yourself.

Hmm.

We as leaders have to stop worrying about this perfect polished image. We need to show the real human behind the badge and behind the uniform. And I will tell you that, just think about the lives that you will save. And all it takes, it doesn't cost a dime. All it takes is for you to look inside yourself and your soul and to be honest, open, and transparent, and to share how you got out of those darkest times, how you prevailed, or maybe how you're dealing with those times right now and what you're doing to overcome those.

Wow, that is powerful, powerful.

Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that.

Let me ask you this. I guess you kind of alluded to it earlier.

I guess with PTSD, maybe you will never be completely healed, but definitely you can improve day by day. What are some of the daily habits or practices that kind of keeps you grounded?

I think that's a great question because, you know, you have to do maintenance, right? Um, it's just like physical fitness. So there is things that I have to do every single day, and some things maybe once a week or once a month. But, um, first and foremost, I have to go to the gym every single day. For me, working out, it also forces me out of isolation to be at the gym, to be in a public, somewhat social environment. Usually I try to work out with another veteran or first responder friend of mine where again, I can have these open and frank discussions as we're working out and they can do the same. I practice meditation. I practice gratitude every single night. So before I go to sleep, I think of just 3 things, 3 simple things that happened in the day. And it could be anything. I mean, it could literally be, you know what, I had lunch with a friend today, or I got out of bed today with no physical pain. You know, my back's not hurting today. Or maybe I got to see my mother, or maybe I went to a concert or a basketball game or a hockey game. Maybe I had just had a great dinner. But the point is that no matter how bad your day was, there's always going to be at least 3 things that we can be grateful for. And so you train yourself in your mind before you go to bed to finish with positive thoughts. So hopefully that also affects your dreams as opposed to nightmares. Whereas if you go to bed, you know, thinking about negative thoughts and something horrible that happened that day, likely that's going to influence your, your dreams, your nightmares, and your mood for the next day. And so it's really important to practice gratitude. And you know what, maybe you can't come up with 3 things, but maybe you can come up with just one thing. And whether you write that down or you just think about it And again, you, you like we did the beginning of this interview, right? You practice gratitude. I mean, you were the perfect example of that. And I did that while you were talking about it. I closed my eyes. I thought about something I'm grateful for today, and it actually boosted my mood for this interview. So, and it's one of those things that we can do anywhere at any time. But it's, it's one of those things once you start and you get into a rhythm of it, it can change your life. And I will tell you, though, this is important. I still go to therapy. I don't go to therapy twice a week like I did when I started my recovery journey, but I go once a month where again I can talk about anything and everything. All it is is having a conversation with somebody where it's protected, where it's safe, where you're not being judged, where you're not being looked down upon, and you're getting these things off your chest.

That is so, so powerful, especially for the junior officers and enlisted who are listening right now. I'm especially talking about male. I think women are a lot more smarter in my opinion than most male, especially in the military. I guess we have too much testosterone, like alpha male.

We always competing and stuff, and we really act like kids sometimes where you get injured and you are suffering, but you're like, no, I won't say anything because I am strong, I am an alpha male, I can take it. No, you can't.

You need to ask for help and you need to go through therapy, right? It's not sissy, it's not gay, it's not girly.

You are a man and you need help, and it's okay. To ask for help. Again, I think it's a cultural thing. And definitely in the Navy specifically, I can't speak about the Air Force, but in the Navy 20 years ago, it was really, really bad for people. You didn't encourage people to raise the hand and say, I need help, because there could be some serious negative consequences to their career and their security clearances.

But as of right now, it's definitely open. They want you to get help because too many people are dying in silence, and that's absolutely not acceptable.

Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing. So the last question I'm going to ask you, we have about maybe 10 minutes left, but I want to ask about the title of this wonderful book. What does that mean to you today, Relentless Courage?

It means that in this journey of recovery, your courage has to be relentless. You know, it's not just a one-time thing. It's not a one day, but it takes courage throughout your entire journey. Just like it takes courage, we all know, being in the military, being a firefighter, being a paramedic, being a police officer, it takes courage for you to put that uniform on every day and to respond to those 911 calls, those calls where most people would run away from and we're expected to run towards. But you have to take that same type of courage and you have to apply it to yourself and you have to fight for your life. You know, we spend all our time protecting and serving others, yet we never think about protecting and serving ourselves. And the reality is, and you alluded to it just a second ago, but suicide is the number one killer for active military, for military veterans, for active first responders. You're much more likely to die by your own hands than the hands of another.

Wow!

That's a fact! It's a sad fact! You know, we don't talk about it. The general public, I don't think they understand that or realize that, especially when it comes to first responders. But I'm telling you right now that you are much more likely to die by your own hands. So, you have to have that relentless courage to get through this struggle, to get through this fight. And I promise you, if you do that, you can come out healthy on the other side. Of your career and you can live a full life just like I'm doing today.

Wow, that really could literally save the life of the people listening right now.

Thank you so much for sharing that. That is powerful. That's another reason why I really wanted to have you here.

But let's switch things a little bit. Let me ask you, just generally speaking, what is you think the greatest lesson you have learned so far, just in general leadership and life?

The greatest lesson, I think, is when you have that gut feeling, that instinct that something's not right. When you have people, whether it's a friend, a family member, a peer, subordinate, off-duty, on-duty, and you kind of think that they're struggling or something's wrong and you ask them, you know, like we all do, how are you doing? And they say, I'm fine, I'm okay, I'm doing good. Like most people do, and they'll say that in their darkest times because I did that.

Yes.

But you have to trust that gut feeling that something isn't right. And you know what? I don't believe when they're telling me that they're good or they're okay. And it's stepping past that comfort zone. And again, you have to be open and honest and vulnerable yourself. But when you feel that and when you know it, you need to, at that moment, whether it, you know, in private or take that person aside or meet them for lunch or coffee and just have that heart-to-heart conversation. But open it up first. Be the leader that you are and lead that conversation and share something very deep and personal. That shows them that you truly understand it and that you get it, so they know, yes, they can actually trust you with their life.

Hmm, that is powerful. Thank you. Yeah, I think that's really what, uh, we all need, that sense of connection and people who really truly care.

Because it's true, in Silicon Valley I've had some bosses, now they ask, how are you doing, and stuff, but by the time you answer, okay, back to work, they already have like a thousand things for for you to do.

It's like they don't really care about you, the person, but just your productivity. And people can definitely tell the difference.

So let me ask you this.

You've had so many careers, successful career in the Air Force, in the Walnut Creek Police Department, and now as a number one Amazon bestseller and keynote speaker.

What do you think is the secret to your success?

That's easy. I just speak from the heart every single time. When I speak, I don't practice, I don't rehearse, I don't show any PowerPoint slides. I show a 9-minute film at the beginning called "Stigma of Help." It was made by Mission 22, which is a nonprofit for combat veterans. And when I get up there on that stage and I speak for 2, 3, sometimes 4 hours—

Wow!

I am speaking directly from my heart and soul. And the thing is, when people are in that audience, I'm getting eye contact. Everyone's looking, everyone's listening. You can hear a pin drop.

Wow.

Because they know it's real. They know it's genuine.

Yes. Wow, powerful.

So as a leader, what are you learning right now?

Well, I think, you know, the biggest thing for me is that especially having this public image now I was a lot more private, obviously, when I was in the military and law enforcement. But there's a lot of pressure, and there's this pressure to be perfect, or again, to present this, this perfect life, this perfect image, this perfect recovery. And nothing's perfect. We all have bad days. We all have tragedy. We all have things that happen with ourselves, our family members.

Yes.

I mean, a year and a half ago, my daughter almost died literally in front of me. And, you know, it's not in the book. I don't talk about it during interviews, but that brought me to my knees. And I remember just feeling so weak and so helpless and just thinking like, you know, why am I falling apart? Why am I just losing it right now? It's because I'm human. I'm human. And you're human, and we have to acknowledge that, and we have to know that no one's perfect. And I have good days and I have bad days just like you.

Hmm.

Wow.

Thank you so much for sharing and being vulnerable. We really need to be reminded of that.

Um, wow.

Powerful, powerful. Um, I guess we alluded to, to this a little bit earlier.

I love this coin one of my CEOs gave me. It has success on one side, failure on the other side, showing that success and failures are really two sides of the same coin. I was going to say, we all look at all of your successes and things you were able to do in the military, the, uh, police department, and with your book and your speaking, but How has failure shaped your life?

Well, I think that failure has actually improved me. I think that failure has taught me more than successes. I think when you fail and you get to those deepest, darkest moments, that's really where you grow, that's really where you learn, and that's really where you flourish afterwards.

Wow.

Powerful.

Yeah, it's true, you don't really learn very much from your successes, do you?

Uh, wow. So who are the people that you know that we should know, or some of your mentors, thought leaders, or people that you follow have had a significant impact in your life that we should know?

I think Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman. Um, I think a lot of people are familiar with him. He wrote On Combat, On Killing. He's written over 12 books. He actually wrote the foreword to my book. He's a genius man, but he's a gracious man. And, you know, the fact that he was willing to write this foreword, and it's remarkable. But he really was one of those people decades ago who started these talks about, you know, resiliency and overcoming this adversity as military members and as first responders. And he was an inspiration for me as a very young police officer. I actually got to see him speak a few times live. And, you know, he did— he didn't know me. Um, I reached out to him on a whim while we were writing the manuscript before this book was published. And, uh, kind of a cool story, but I just, you know, I reached out to him on a whim and I said, look, sir, um, you know, I've always looked up to you, I've admired you. You don't know who I am, I know who you are, but we're writing this book and I kind of explained it. And I just said, you know, would you be willing just to read part of the manuscript? And, you know, if you like it, maybe give us a line or two that we can use on the COVID or the inside the book. And without even hesitating, he agrees. And I gotta tell you, this is kind of funny. So a few days later, um, he, he'd really gotten into the book. He wasn't done yet, but he said, look, he's like, if I die tomorrow, you can use this quote. And it was, I mean, it was, it was A very strong quote, very powerful. And that's how much he liked it. And so I remember I went to my coauthor and we weren't even going to do a foreword. And I said, wow, hey, Doc, think about having Colonel Grossman write a foreword to our book. And I said, I don't know if he'll do it. I said, but I mean, I'd be so honored, you know? And so she agrees. And again, I reach out to him and I still have the message saved. And again, I was all kind of nervous and shy and I'm like, I don't know how to ask you this, but would you know? And I say it after this long email, you know, would you be willing to consider writing the foreword to our book? And without hesitation, I'm not even joking, like less than 5 minutes later, I get a reply and he said, I'd be absolutely honored to. And so, I mean, again, this— he didn't know me, right?

Yeah.

And that tells you the caliber of this man. I mean, this man. Has sold literally, I mean, over half a million books, like New York Times bestseller, like inspirational leader. He's still out there writing books and talking and motivating people and saving lives. And so my hat is off to Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman. I mean, he is a warrior, but he is—

that's amazing—

he's a man of faith and he is a great man.

So just wow. And also, I believe he did say that his number one bestselling book on combat, which is there on the screen, he said that the book that you wrote is really the succession to that, which is really, really powerful.

Wow. So that's where I would ask you then, are there any—

actually, before I ask that, if you could have dinner with 3 people, right, doesn't matter who they are, dead, alive, or even mythical figures, who would you choose? And why?

So first would be Michael Jordan. He's, he's the GOAT. He's the greatest basketball player of all time. And I'm a huge basketball fan. I have partial season tickets to the Kings and I just love basketball.

I should have you talk with my daughter who believes that LeBron James has anything on Jordan. But yeah, I agree with you for sure.

I just, I don't get starstruck. You know, I've met famous people, but, uh, just he— I'm just inspired by him. And so I'd love to have dinner with him. Um, the next— let's see, it's difficult, right? But I would say actually Jake Gyllenhaal, who is one of my favorite actors. My favorite movie is called End of Watch. I actually watched it so many times I actually burnt out my Blu-ray.

Wow.

And, uh, I had to buy a new one, and I, I watched at least twice a year. Um, but I'm, I'm actually hoping and praying that someday my book Relentless Courage gets turned into a Hollywood movie.

Yes.

And Jake Gyllenhaal is who I want to play myself, not because he looks like me— he's much better looking— but because he's a phenomenal actor. Wow. And I— and he has that intensity. And so to have dinner with him and talk about this movie that he's going to star in, I think that would be Phenomenal. Absolutely.

Wow, that is great. One, one more.

One more, um, I would say Clint Eastwood. So, um, I actually got to meet him when I was younger. My stepfather, uh, was a sergeant for the Sausalito Police Department, and they were filming Deadpool, which was the, the last Dirty Harry movie.

Yeah.

And to give people perspective, it's when Guns N' Roses first got famous, because in the beginning of that movie they play Welcome to the Jungle. And there's Liam Neeson's in the movie, like all these famous people I never realized because I just rewatched it. But Clint Eastwood, in my opinion, is one of the greatest directors, actors of all time. And I did get to meet him and talk with him, but I didn't get to sit down and just have dinner with him. And again, just a great man, and he has so much knowledge and wisdom. And I would just love to have a, have a great just personal conversation with him over some nice filet mignon.

That's really wonderful. I know about 10 years ago, I think he still does, he has a restaurant in Carmel, right?

Montgomery County. And sometimes you will see him there playing the piano too, which is pretty, pretty, pretty cool.

Wow. Oh, by the way, we have another comment from LinkedIn. Tracy says, glad tuning in from Houston.

Hello, Sergeant and Coach.

Thank you so much. And Tracy, let us know if you have a question for Sergeant Michael Segru and also what you are grateful for. Okay, we are almost done actually. We're almost at the top of the hour. Can you give me 5 more minutes before we shut down this interview?

Yes.

Okay, thank you.

So what are some of the books that you've read that you think we should read without counting your books?

Definitely, I want everybody to go right now and purchase a copy of Relentless Courage.

And you've also mentioned On Courage by your mentor right there, I mean, on, on combat. Is there any other book you would recommend for the audience to read?

Well, I have to give a shout out to my co-author, Dr. Shawna Springer, but she wrote Warrior, um, actually before we wrote Relentless Courage, and phenomenal book. I, I highly recommend that to anybody who has served in the military, any family members of those who have served in the military. Any first responders. Highly recommend that. Another one of my just, I would say, absolute favorites is The Body Keeps the Score. And I, I actually listened to that on Audible. I actually prefer Audibles these days, and I think that's probably because of post-traumatic stress. But The Body Keeps the Score just really hits home on, on how post-traumatic stress affects your body, affects your mind, affects your relationships. And I think that book— I mean, anybody anybody. You don't— I'm not talking about just first responders. I'm talking about anybody on this planet Earth, you know, whether you're, I would say, a preteen to 90 years old. Yeah, doesn't matter your background, your ethnicity, your religion, your career. It doesn't matter. The Body Keeps the Score will be absolutely life-changing for you.

Wow, thank you.

Thank you so much for sharing that because We do read a lot here.

Let me ask you this. If you had one and only one day to live, what would you have liked your final contribution to be?

Final thing to do or final contribution?

Final contribution. It could be final thing to do.

I guess one last thing you would like to do or be remembered for if you only had 24 hours.

I think just being a loving father and dad, that's really all that matters to me. At the end of the day, if my daughter just knows how much I love her and how much I care about her, nothing else matters. I mean, that is the single most important thing.

Powerful. And if you had a magic wand, could solve any problem when you wake up tomorrow morning, which one problem you would like to solve?

I would say the division in this country, um, and, and actually all over the world for that matter, not just this country. But there's so much division, there's so much hate, so much separation. And I really, you know, if I could just fix it where we all came together as humanity and respected each other, loved each other, appreciate each other for their own unique values and beliefs, and, and instead of judging and, and being separated, that would be it. Absolutely.

That is really powerful.

I know, uh, in the Navy, like in the Air Force, we have core values, like, of the Navy: honor, courage, commitment. I think that's really what keeps all of the sailors around the world, and those who came before me and those who will enlist after me, together. Right, because we have the same value. And I feel like in our country, right, we need to go back to our core values, what really America stands for.

And, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's kind of sad.

I am kind of leadership sad right now, really, from the top of the, uh, you know, leadership in the, in the, in the country and all of the, uh, division in politics and races and gender and all of that. This is very, very sad. We could do so much, so much better. But I think it goes back to really having great values and then valuing other people and trying to add value to them.

So thank you so much for sharing. Okay, we've come toward the end. What can we do to add value back to you, Michael?

Thank you so much for adding so much wisdom and value to the audience. How can we add value back to you?

Why, I would ask that anybody who reads or listens to Relentless Courage, I personally want to hear from you. I want you to reach out. I want you to send me a message if you want to have a phone conversation afterwards and talk about it. But I want to hear how this book, my story, has helped you or has influenced your life. Um, again, I'm on every social media platform that you can imagine, from Facebook, Instagram, X, Truth, Parler, LinkedIn, Snapchat, TikTok. I mean, you name it, just type in Sergeant Michael Sugru, send me a message. I check them every single day, and I promise you I will get back to you.

Wow, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Okay, let me ask you this question before we do the final rapid fire.

If you could go back and give a piece of advice to your 17-year-old self, right, standing at the edge of this incredible career you've had in the military, the police department, and as a creative, number one bestselling author and keynote speaker, what would you say to 17-year-old Michael?

I would say always put your family and your loved ones first before any career, before any profession, before any goal or achievement. Truly know who loves you and has your back, and the priority is what's at home, not the job or the career.

Powerful.

Okay, to end the show now, it's gonna be rapid fire, so don't take too long to think, but what is one word that defines leadership?

Courage. Courage, yes.

Morning routine or practice that keeps you grounded?

Working out.

Okay. A book or a quote that changed your life?

Uh, On Combat.

On Combat.

And this is the one by your mentor right here.

Wow, powerful. Okay, who inspires you the most today?

My stepfather, Mike Gormley.

Yes.

Wow, powerful.

And, um, what did you want to be when you were a kid?

What I became. I wanted to be a military officer and then a police officer.

Fantastic. So few people actually do what they wanted to do when they were kids. So, 3 adjectives describing you as a kid.

I would say perfectionist, shy, and driven. As an adult now or before my recovery?

Let's do now.

Now I would say loving, caring, and emotional.

Okay, just a bit before your recovery, what were they?

I would say a hard-ass. I would say motivated and driven.

Okay, quite similar.

All right, this is a very, very last question. Actually, before I ask you this one, Is there a question I should have asked you that I haven't asked yet?

Anything you wanted to talk about that we didn't have a chance to?

I don't think so, but I, I am going to challenge you on this show, and I think that if you were to read or listen to this book, you're probably going to want to do another interview, number one, but number two, this book will change your life, and I guarantee it.

Yes.

Wow, powerful, powerful. Okay, this is it, the last question. What is one word that represents our shared experience on this podcast today?

One word.

Humanity.

And for me, I am almost always grateful. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for being one of our master teachers today. And mental health is extremely important. Thank you so much, Sergeant Michael. I appreciate that.

Thank you. Take care.

Bye. All right everyone, uh, that was quite a show.

That was Sergeant Michael Segru, bestselling author of Relentless Courage: Winning the Battle Against Frontline Trauma with co-author Dr. Shana Springer.

All right, encourage everybody to get a copy of the book.

I'm going to be back here tomorrow morning. I will have a 10-minute AI recap from a previous interview with Lieutenant Colonel Johnny Lynham, U.S. Air Force retired. He's a founder, investor, and author, uh, From the Frontline to Financial Freedom.

And then on Wednesday, I will have an interview with a legendary strategist, 3-star soldier scholar, serial bestselling author, Lieutenant General Milford Beagle.

He's going to be here. We're going to be talking about When the Map Runs Out, which is his instant bestselling book just published this year.

And finally, on Thursday, I will have the privilege of speaking with Janet Foudy.

She is the co-author of Arrive and Thrive, number one best-selling book, a transformational leader, best-selling author, and LinkedIn top voice. So you do not want to miss it.

And thanks again for watching the show today, and I will see you tomorrow. Bye for now.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century. Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.