S4:E125🎙️ LIVE with Kwame Christian!

Hi, I'm John Maxwell. When the top companies in the world are looking for trainers, speakers, and coaches, there's one name that stands above the rest, and that's Maxwell Leadership. Our certified team members have gotten proven results for companies all over the globe, and our reputation, I'm proud to say, is second to none. Some of our members have risen to the top of their profession, including the one you're going to meet today. I proudly introduce you to my friend, Bob Fabien Zinga.

Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ, where we help you lead with purpose and succeed Leadership with Impact. If you're ready to grow into the kind of leader others want to follow, this podcast is for you. If you're determined to elevate your success and leave a lasting legacy, this podcast is for you. As my mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell, reminds us, everything rises and falls on leadership. Our goal is simple: to inspire you, challenge you, and equip you with insights that can transform the trajectory of your leadership journey. Welcome aboard to Welcome to another episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast with Coach BZ.

I have the pleasure of introducing to you the host of the number one negotiation podcast in the world, two-time bestselling author, CEO of the American Negotiation Institute, Please join me.

Please welcome.

Please welcome. Please welcome to the stage Kwame Christian. If possible too. And so we're going to continue interacting. So we need to make sure that we are continuing to be strategic about each of these interactions.

Cool.

I can't see the next slide either. So, so it's gonna be an adventure. But the problem is that society evolved faster than our brains, and as a result, today we struggle in difficult conversations because we're fighting modern-day battles with prehistoric tools. So you want to learn something that you can actually use, but when you hear words like confidence, motivation, inspiration, we're realizing that there's a feeling that can hold us back. Sometimes over-intellectualization is just another manifestation of fear. Fear is a very crafty emotion. So I'm going to keep you thinking and keep you thinking that your overthinking is productive. It's not. You got a simple framework that you can use to enter the conversation, and we're going to talk about a simple framework that you can use during the conversation. I grew up in Tiffin, Ohio, and the thing that I really—

All right, everyone, I am very— Oh, hold on a second. He's not supposed to be here just yet. Just a quick second. All right. I am really, really honored. I mean, this is a great, great honor. I have one of my heroes right here on the Leadership Success Podcast. He's in the green room. You just had a little quick peek, but before I bring him in, let me see if I can properly introduce him. It's going to be quite a challenge. Even his introduction video, I think if I had to play all of it, we'd be here for hours and hours and hours. So what I'm What I'm gonna try to do is just tell you just a little bit about him, but I think he doesn't need any introduction. He's one of those few people who absolutely doesn't. So Kwame Christian, as many of you may not know, he used to be a people pleaser, but now he's a confident dealmaker. He's an author, podcast host, and trainer trusted by some of the largest organizations in the world to really help teams negotiate million-dollar deals And most people really have assumed that he's always been confident all of his life, but he definitely wasn't born this way, but he was built this way. And he's going to share with us some of the secrets that made him the man he is today. He has so many accolades. I mean, is there anything he hasn't done, right? He has bachelor in psychology, Spanish, and foundation of law minor from Ohio State University, a Juris Doctor from Ohio State University Moritz College of Law, but also a master of public policy. Man, he has so— What has he not done? A business lawyer and certified mediator, author of two bestselling books, which we're gonna be, uh, talking about today. TEDx speaker with over 650,000 views, host of Negotiate Anything, number one negotiation podcast in the world, 16+ downloads across 180 countries, LinkedIn Learning instruction with more than 2.5 million students, on and on and on and on and on. It's gonna take me forever to introduce him. So let me just quit right now that I am ahead. Ladies and gentlemen, please help me welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast, the one and only Kwame Christian.

Thank you, BZ. I appreciate it. I'm glad to be here.

Man, you are an over, overachiever, man. This is crazy. We are really, really glad that you are here with us. I guess to get started, we like to start with what I call moment of gratitude. Is there anything you are grateful for today?

I am grateful for being here. You know, you went through my accomplishments. One of the things that I haven't accomplished is being an accomplished leader within the Navy. So, you know, you got I'm just glad to be in the presence of greatness here with you, my friend. Um, also grateful for health. I—

we—

my 4-year-old, uh, did what 4-year-olds often do, which was, uh, spread disease. He brought home a sickness, got everybody in the family sick. And so this is my first day feeling somewhat normal, so I'm just glad to, to be here and be somewhat healthy.

Well, thank you, and happy holiday to you, sir. I guess to get started, let me ask you this too. Is there something about you that most people may not know?

Well, there used to be the little secret that I was a people pleaser. That is now well known. I think the one thing that is fun to share is I'm a big-time chess nerd. I've played over 20,000 games of chess on chess.com, got up to the 99th percentile of chess.com. So I love playing chess. It's a great escape. I love strategy and competition. So that's a nice productive way to get that outlet.

Wow, that is really, really, really great. Maybe you can tell us briefly kind of like about your leadership journey, how you got to become Kwame Christian, best-selling author, speaker, on and on and on, the person you are today, really a living legend in my opinion.

Thank you. Well, I mean, it started with education. My family is from the Caribbean. I'm first-generation Caribbean American. Mom's from Guyana. She has a PhD in nutrition. Dad's a surgeon. He's from a small island called Dominica. So they constantly instilled the value of education in me from a young age. So that's where it started, just learning as much as I possibly could, uh, learning from the, from the greats, you know. So my professors, trying to read as much as I could, consume as much beneficial information in order to make sure that I was worthy of leadership. I think that's something that people don't often consider. A lot of times people want to have the status of being a leader. They want to have that social accolade that they could say, look, I lead other people, but they don't ask themselves what is required in order to be worthy of leadership. So I wanted to make sure that I spent as much time as necessary to make sure that I put together a really strong foundation that made me worthy of leadership and then built my company and now have a great team and we're doing great things.

That is amazing. And also Kwame, I'd like to take a moment to check the monitor, everything we get from LinkedIn or YouTube. I love this because the very first podcast I did 4 years ago, I was the only person in the audience. So we have Ayodele Akowe from Trinidad and Tobago. Thanks so much for being here. We also have Brian Heron. I've interviewed him before from Columbus, Ohio. You have to keep coming on. That's wonderful. And by the way, I invited everybody I knew from Ohio State University and from the entire state of Ohio to come and support you. So hopefully we should have more people coming in. And for those listening live, let us know also what you're grateful for, which country, city, you are watching us from, and also if you have a question for Kwame, we're gonna try to answer your question live. Okay. Let me ask you this, Kwame. So your journey is really fascinating, right? From psychology to attorney, negotiation expert, bestselling author, CEO, on and on and on and on and on. You keep breaking all of the barriers, but what early experiences shaped your passion for helping people navigate difficult conversation?

Well, for me, it starts off at the playground. Um, I grew up in Tiffin, Ohio, small town. Um, one of the things that Tiffin is not known for is diversity. So I used to have a joke, uh, there were only 4 Black people in Tiffin: my mom, my dad, my brother, and me. And, uh, but we, we were always treated with respect, and we— I still have some great friendships from this day, uh, to this day. But I— but there was this one incident in when I was a in first grade where nobody would play with me. It was recess. And I remember I would go up to one group of friends. I would say, hey, can I play with you? They said no. Went up to another group of friends. Hey, can I play with you? They said no. And time was running out. And I said, okay, there's one more group. Can I play with them? And they said no. And I tried to keep it together as much as I could, but I was just devastated. And then my teacher asked me, Kwame, what's wrong? And I just burst into tears and said nobody would play with me. And And from that moment, I made a vow to myself on that day at 6 years old. I said, I will never feel this way again. I'll do whatever it takes. And I said, okay, cool. I'm going to make sure I have as many friends as possible. And when you go fast forward from that point to all the way through high school, I became one of the most popular kids in school, like Captain of the Bat Team. I knew literally everybody in the school by name. It was a small school, so it's not as impressive as it sounds. But I didn't realize that that came with a cost, though. I became a people pleaser. Pleaser. So if there was that I disagreed with, I would pretend like I would agree. I would just go along with the flow because I didn't want to jeopardize the relationships I worked so hard to, to, to cultivate. And I realized that after I was talking to one of my mentors. He helped me to realize there's a difference between being liked and being respected. And I have a big impact on the world, but I wouldn't be able to have that impact if I wasn't willing to step up and have these tough conversations. And so for me, that was the beginning of the journey. It was me understanding how I could find confidence in conflict for myself learned negotiation in law school, and that's when it hit me. I said, well, you know what, after I discovered this class, I realized this was a skill, not a talent. I can actually get better at it. And so they had these negotiation competitions at the law school, and I competed in one, and, um, we, we won that. And then we competed in the American Bar Association, uh, competition in Ottawa, Ontario, and we won that too. So I was hooked because every time that I had a conversation and stood up for myself and advocated, it was a vote of confidence for the man I ultimately want to become. And I recognized that if I was feeling this way and struggling and found a way through it, there are other people who are feeling this way and struggling, but don't know that there's a way through it. And so that's what led me to start the American Negotiation Institute.

Wow. That is really fascinating. Earlier you mentioned playing chess. I think I found a picture of you playing with your son. What does chess kind of taught you about negotiation strategy or leadership?

Oh, Bizzy, you're going to have to like bring me in, man. I'm excited about this. So one of the things about chess is that it's all about positioning. It's all about positioning. And what's interesting is that a lot of times you might not know where the opportunity is, but you know that once you put yourself in a good position, you'll be able to take advantage of the opportunity when it does present itself. And sometimes in chess, you don't know exactly what to do next, but if you understand chess principles, you can make sure to move yourself in the right position. So, okay, let's control the center. If I control the center, good things happen. Don't put knights on the edges, that limits them. You want to advance your pieces, get them in, right? All of these things. And if you do these things continuously, good things break in your favor. When it comes to leadership and conversations, a lot of times I go into the conversation, I don't exactly know what the solution is going to be. I might have some ideas, but I don't know what's going on on their side. And so that can— that fear of the unknown can hold people back. But if you understand good conversational and communication principles, then you can always put yourself in a good position to take advantage of the opportunity when it does present itself. So you create a connection, you build rapport, you use curiosity, you gather information, and then they say that one thing and you say, wait, can you say that again? Oh, so going into this, I thought you wanted this for this reason. It turns out you wanted that for this reason. Am I getting that right? Okay, you know what, we're not that opposed because I'm willing to adjust in this way. If you can do that, maybe we can move forward. Okay, so it's an opportunity that I didn't see beforehand, but because I was in a good position, now I can take advantage of it in the moment. And so I take a lot of those chess foundational principles and bring it to communication because you don't need to have a precise script. You don't need to know what the exact outcome is. But if you understand the fundamental principles of relationship building, communication, and conflict resolution, you'll put yourself in the best position to succeed.

Wow. That is quite powerful. And I also want to acknowledge Jim Mwile from Kenya. Thanks so much for watching. And by the way, I know your podcast, which is number one around the world, more than 180 countries, but I guess my show really went international this year, which is pretty exciting. Seeing people from all around the world, it's really amazing how technology can really bring us together. So let me ask you this, Kwame. What was the defining moment or conflict in your life that awakened your mission, right, to teach the world how to negotiate fearlessly and compassionately?

Well, I think it would be nice narratively if there was one defining moment, but I think it's just the compilation of moments. And then upon reflection, recognizing how significant it was, you know, because we had that experience on the playground. We also had situations where I had to have tough conversations with friends in ways that might seem innocuous. Like, I'll give an example. I talked about this with Mel Robbins, where after I realized, okay, I need to start having these conversations, I didn't know exactly how. But I remember there was one situation where I was in college. I was fortunate enough for my family to be able to afford to buy me a car. So I was buying the car and they said, listen, we'll buy this car for you, but we have one rule. Whenever you're in this car, you and everybody in it, they have to wear a seatbelt. I said, okay, I think that's fair. And so I remember one time we were packed into the car. It was me and my 4 other friends. My friends are large, you know, so they take up space and they did not want to put on their seatbelts. They're like, it's uncomfortable. I was like, listen, I told my parents that we have one rule. That's the rule. And it became this ridiculous standoff for like 15 minutes. And again, this seems inconsequential in the totality of life, but really in that moment it was pivotal because it was one of those moments where I had a— it was like a fork in the road moment. The old version of myself would have just let it go quietly, see that, acted like it was a joke and moved on. But I said, no, this is a time I'm going to stand up. And then eventually, after literally 15 minutes sitting in this car not moving, they said, wow, you're going to be a baby about this. We'll put on the seatbelt and we'll go. And I remember afterwards I had a conversation with one of my friends. I said, why is it that you're my best friend, but it feels like you're the one who respects me the least? And, um, wow. And I, you know, he kind of stuttered about his answer and came up with something, but I don't even remember what he said. But I want to say this though, to this, to this day, that, that man is still my best friend, but our relationship changed. He respected me more. And that moment taught me that a lot of times in these tough conversations, your success is going to be predicated not upon the things that you say, but the questions that you ask. I didn't need to say anything else. I asked that one question. The question itself did all of the work. And so that's one of those examples of a conversation that had a meaningful impact in terms of how it shaped me, even though in terms of the gravity of the conversation from the outside looking in didn't seem that significant. I've had far bigger negotiations, but in terms of the man it made me today, that was big.

Wow. That is really insightful. And your TEDx talk, Finding Confidence in Conflict, which I think was based on your first best-selling book, it really resonates globally, right? What personal fear did you have to overcome to find your confidence in conflict?

It's the fear of rejection. It's the fear of rejection, because at the end of the day, we have to understand where this comes from. Think back in our tribal days, um, where death was around every corner. The consequences of rejection were significant. If the tribe rejects us, that's a death sentence. We will be lonely and dead. Right? That's not, that's not good. And so when it comes to that, like, that's ingrained deeply within us. So we will approach these conversations with the fear of impending doom, even though it's a simple social situation. And so you have to understand that a lot of times these tough conversations aren't just conversations where you're trying to find a solution. They're also relationship tests. It's an opportunity to repair and strengthen strong and valuable relationships, while at the same time it gives you the opportunity to identify and remove malignant relationships with minimal damage. Because sometimes it's not necessarily the fact that you should be afraid of rejection, it should be the fact that if this doesn't work out, then it might just be a signal that it's a problematic relationship. And a little point that's to the side, think about all of the conversations we have about toxicity, about, um, passive-aggressive behavior, those type of things. A lot of times what I've found is that it's not inability to resolve conflict. It's an inability or an unwillingness to accept the consequences and the— and what we've discovered through conflict. So you've had these conversations, and what we've discovered is that these two people are fundamentally incompatible for whatever reason. It might be within a workplace, it might be within a romantic relationship, but no harm, no foul, we just should not be together. It just does not work out. But then we keep on trying to make it work, even though we keep on getting signals that it shouldn't be. So a lot of times people become unintentionally toxic. So a lot of times we are afraid of the information that we need to make a good decision, which might mean the end of a relationship or the end of an opportunity. And we're afraid of that conclusion. So we would rather just avoid the conversation, avoid the rejection, avoid making the necessary change, and just live in perpetual toxicity forever.

Wow.

That is really something to think about because you also teach that every conversation is a negotiation. What do most leaders misunderstand about negotiation?

So, a couple of things, a couple of things, because for me, the way that I define negotiation is anytime you're in a conversation and somebody wants something. So, by that definition, we recognize a lot of these things are negotiations. But you can tell by the way that I negotiate, it's not transactional. My goal isn't to always extract value from somebody. The goals could be relational. I want to get closer to you. I want to understand you better. I want to show you that I care. Those are still valid goals within these everyday negotiations that we have. Now, this is a leadership lesson that I had to learn that was very, very unique because the— I came into leadership and entrepreneurship as a negotiator. That was always my identity. And then I became a leader, but there's a difference between a leader and a negotiator. So one of the fundamental tenets of negotiation is that you have to separate the people from the problem. Instead of vilifying the other person and saying that they're the problem, work with them collaboratively. And so it's not me versus you, it's you and me versus the problem right now. In leadership, one of the things that I recognize is that sometimes the person is the problem, but you can't solve the problem if you're working with the problem and refuse to call them a problem and come to that conclusion, right? So you keep on just putting yourself in a situation where you are keeping these relationships on life support when they really actually should end.

End.

So for me, I've recognized one of the biggest lessons that I've learned personally as a leader is that I cannot consider myself a negotiator when I'm in a leadership position. I am a leader that has negotiation skills and uses them when that is the tool that needs to be used. But other times, the tools need— that needs to be used might be decisiveness, might need to be coming to a conclusion, making a decision, calling a shot, and taking action, right? So I think it's important to recognize that a leader and a negotiator are not the game. You should be a leader with negotiation skills, but also have the discernment to understand when a decision simply needs to be made.

Wow. Having said what, what you said, I'm thinking especially the two world I'm very familiar with, in the military and high-tech, it's very important for leaders, especially senior leader, to stay calm under pressure. And that's not always easy, especially in the military, you know, during time of conflict and war. And I take, like, for me in, in cyber, if at 2 AM, no, some Chinese hackers have got into the personal data of your customer? How do you mitigate that you're going to be on the front page of the New York Times or whatever the case might be? So, how does your compassionate curiosity framework help leaders stay calm under great pressure?

Great question. And let me, considering the audience too, I want to make sure that we sprinkle in a little bit of military advice in here too. Because I believe it was the Navy SEALs that popularized box breathing, right? Breathe in slowly for 4, hold for 4, exhale slowly for 4, hold for 4. It's important for triggering the parasympathetic your nervous system calming you down. But as you're doing that, what I would want to introduce is my framework called compassionate curiosity. So, this is an approach to tough conversations that's not just applied to the other side of the conversation, but also applied to yourself for internal negotiation and emotion management. So, the steps are the same both ways. So, step 1 is acknowledge and validate the emotions. We're going to label it. So, in psychology, they say you have to name it to tame it. Once you label these emotions, it calms you down. Then step number 2 is getting curious with compassion. And then step number 3 is using joint problem solving. And you flow through this during the conversation. It's not rigid. So if there's an emotion, acknowledge and validate the emotions to lower the emotional temperature of the room. And then if you have no emotional issues, then you can go to step 2, gather information. You flow, right? But internally directed, what you're going to do as you're going through this box breathing exercise is you're going to label your own emotions. Emotions. So you might say to yourself in the moment, okay, what am I feeling? I'm, I'm angry. Okay, well, anger is a secondary emotion, not a primary emotion. What else are you feeling? Well, I'm feeling annoyed that I have to be up at 2 AM dealing with this problem. Um, I'm feeling frustrated because I think we could have solved this before if this person would have listened to me, but now we're in this situation. Anything else? Okay, no, that's the totality of this emotional cocktail.

Great.

Labeling, just doing that will help you to calm and then you ask, why do I feel this way? You get those answers. And then you ask yourself, what should I do next? What's the next move? And you can do that as you're doing this box breathing exercise. You just cycle through compassionate curiosity, internally directed, and then you start to calm down and not just calm down, but leave with a strategy and understand what you need to do next.

Wow.

It's, it's really amazing. I guess if you go back to the psychological studies, a lot of reaction most people have, I think, is really based on their inward fear that nobody knows about, it's not apparent. Earlier you talked about the fear of being abandoned or being alone by your tribe. And me being originally from Africa, I definitely see that. We say it takes a village to raise a child because if you don't have your community, it's going to be pretty much impossible for you to survive. And another one who's watching right now talked about the fear of being judged. Can you maybe tell us how leaders or aspiring leaders should, I guess maybe not overcome their fear, maybe it's not something you are supposed to overcome, but at least manage them so that they make the best decision, whatever the circumstances they are facing?

Yeah, I like the way that you adjusted what you said too, because you can't get rid of the fear. That's psychopathy. We don't want that. You know, you need to be able to feel something in order to make these good decisions. And I think that's an important distinction that we have to make. Emotional intelligent decision-making recognizes that the emotions play some kind of role. They help us to understand what is important to us. Now, they can help to help us to understand, but they shouldn't be the one that's driving the decision. So using a car metaphor, they can be passengers in the car, but they shouldn't have their hands on the wheel, right? And so when it comes to that, we have to understand how the emotions are impacting us and what decisions we're making in terms of the emotional impact of the decision. So something that I help— I ask myself is I try to step outside of myself because it's— you have— you notice the pattern of a lot of times people can give other people really good advice, but they themselves in their own lives, they don't do what they tell other people to do, right? Right. So I realized that pattern. I'm human just like everybody else. So I would say, hypothetically, if I was coaching somebody in this moment, what would I tell that person to do? Um, and it's funny because I got that from a podcast listener. They said, and in tough conversations, I ask myself, what would Kwame say in this situation? And I said to myself, well, man, why don't I do that? Because sometimes I look back at my track record, especially in like interpersonal conversations where your emotions run high The higher the emotions go, the lower the skills go too. And I just say, who was that man in that conversation? I know what I should have done, but I didn't do that because I was clouded with emotion. So just asking, how would I coach somebody else through this exact same situation has been really, really helpful to me when it comes to decision-making and navigating tough conversations.

Wow. Yeah, I think the person who taught me this the most was my first daughter, Naomi. Kids are very, very good at seeing what you do, not what you say. And sometimes they will test you. By the time we had a second daughter, I think I became a pro by then. But yeah, that is so true. So one thing that you've said a lot, I call it a Kwame-ism, is the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversation. I've heard you say that over and over again. What difficult conversation changed your life the most?

Well, I think one of the most important ones that I had was with my wife Whitney. So we got married on graduation day from from undergrad. And, you know, the first, like having that conversation to get married at that young age, at 21, on graduation day, you know, that was a very impactful conversation. The next one would be when I left a stable job to start the American Negotiation Institute about 6 months after having our first son. That was a tough conversation too. And she had a lot of faith in me in terms of what was going to be required in order to take this leap. You know, so I think those tough conversations with the people that are closest to us are going to be the most impactful for dictating how well or how poorly our life goes. Because when you look at the studies and when you look at your own life, you'll see this is true. The quality of our life is going to depend on the quality of our relationships. So even though we have these multimillion-dollar deals, these big deals that I've negotiated in the past, they pale in comparison to those interpersonal conversations that I've had with the people who matter the most to me.

Powerful. So for the people listening right now, how should leaders prepare for a conversation where emotions are likely to run high? Like, I remember one of the first times I had to let go of someone, that was very traumatic, not just for them, but for myself too, just getting to have a frank discussion about, no, this is just not working out, we are going to have to let you go. But how do leaders prepare for those type of conversations?

So first, let me, let me say this, let me say this, because there's a, there's a negotiation expert style of answer here, right? So it'll be methodically preparing for the conversation, writing down the stakeholders and the interests and the parties and things like that. Over time training a lot of professionals, I've recognized something really important, They're not going to do it, BZ. They're not going to do it. So I can come up and give you a really nice academic response. It's not realistic, so I'm not going to waste your time with that. So I— what I do now is I tell people to use the 3-minute prep. So it's— no matter how busy you are, I know you can at least spare 3 minutes. So step 1 would be asking yourself, what is your goal or your goals? Write those things down. Then ask yourself, what are the goals of the other parties? Hypothesize this. Write those things down. Down. And then what are 3 open-ended questions you can ask during the conversation? And then write those down. Um, that's, that's going to put you in a really good position to be productive in that conversation. And again, it's realistic because everybody's busy. People will listen to what I say and say, oh, you know what, Kwame, this very academic preparation, I could see how that would work. And they will be intellectually stimulated and never do it. So let's just keep it real and talk about that. But then the other thing too that I think people forget is that they often think about how they can prepare strategically for the conversation, but they don't ever talk about how they can prepare emotionally for the conversation. What are the potential triggers the person's going to trigger during the conversation? What are the things that they might say that upset you, that offend you? A lot of times, if we just take a little bit of time to think through that beforehand, we can anticipate what those folks are going to say so we can have an emotional strategy. So if they say those things or do those things that really annoy make us really upset, we understand how we can recover emotionally in that conversation. It's like prepping like an athlete. So think about Michael Phelps with his— I think it was about between 18 and 19 million gold medals that he won. Um, one time, goggles— his goggles filled up with, uh, water, and he's like, oh, it's okay, we've— I've practiced for that, I prepared for that, I visualized for that, you know. So he's like, it's— I've already been there. So during the conversation, when the person says that zinger that they know always gets under your skin, um, or they make that point that'll really frustrate you, um, you're like, I knew you're gonna say that. And you, in your mind— I don't want you to be like outwardly, you know, uh, prideful here, but it's like, I'm not concerned about that. I knew you were going to say this. I'm fine. And then the— when you, especially if you've had a history of being very emotional in a specific kind of conversation with a specific person And then they run the same script and they run the same playbook and it doesn't have that impact on you. It's like, oh, well, now I have to focus on the substance of this interaction. Oh man. Okay, I guess I need to lock in. So I think the emotional preparation is an important part that people often overlook.

That is so powerful. I know in the military we always train the way we fight and we have so many exercises. And when I was a junior enlisted or junior officer, I was like, why do we spend so much money going through all of those exercises. But the truth is, once you go through it once, then when it's real conflict, it's like, oh, I've been there before. My muscles already know exactly what to do. And then you just execute. Let me bring back this book. I think it's probably one of the most important books I think you've ever written. We're talking about difficult conversation about race, especially here in America, especially in this time, because it seems like we are really going backward. But I guess what I want to ask you, so this book, How to Have Difficult Conversations About Race, it's really become an essential reading for workplaces. What gives you hope about our ability to have better conversations across differences? And I know America's going to be celebrating 250 years next year. What gives you hope?

I think it's the reality that it's an inescapable challenge. And I think it's, it's nice to come in and talk about something that's a little bit more, uh, maybe romanticized, like, I, I'm hopeful because of the spirit of humanity. No, that's not what gives me hope. It is the fact that at some point we will have no choice but to have these conversations, you know, one way or another, and you need to be prepared for it. And so I had to become a bit more realistic and pragmatic even after writing this book, where I realized, wait, what's going to push people people to, uh, to have these tough conversations. And the reality is that incentives drive behavior, and at some point people are going to recognize that it is valuable for them to be able to have this core competency. And one of the things that I've, I realized in the book is that it's important for me, as I have these conversations, to depoliticize it as much as possible and not even inject my personal thoughts on these specific issues, because then I lose credibility with one of the sides, and oftentimes it's the side who needs it the And so I tell people all the time with the book, my goal isn't to tell you how to think about race, it's teaching you how to talk about race. And I remember one of my friends who was a former police interrogator, he read the book, great guy, Mike Reddington, great book too he has on disciplined listening. And so one of the things that he said was, hey, Kwame, so I read the book, I loved it, but I don't want you to take this the wrong way, no offense, It was a really good book on communication and conflict resolution. It wasn't like a, a DEI type of book. What it wasn't what I expected. And I said, that's it. Because at the end of the day, when it has, when we have these conversations, the reason why these conversations are so tough is because of the heightened emotionality. Because of these, we have, everybody comes in with some level of baggage. Some degree of baggage will be brought in either because of what you personally experienced or what you've seen other people experience too. You're going to have some kind of feeling. And the— those emotions and feelings are not bad. They're real. But the thing is, they have to be managed in a meaningful way. And if we can understand and anticipate those challenges and we could address the emotions in a respectful type of way while still being focused on the substance, then everybody wins. Because at the end of the day, we want this to be a win-win, especially within the workplace. Just think about the workplace like a team. If we have like the military or a sports team, we recognize that we are only as strong as our weakest link. We have people on the team who might not feel included, who have valuable insights, and we as a team are missing out because we're not getting the most out of them. There might be some hidden resentment that they don't feel comfortable bringing up, but they— but if we have the tools to have these conversations, then people can feel more included, which simply means just recognizing that everybody in the organization has the right to be there as themselves, authentically as themselves, you know. So at the end of the day, this makes organizations better. So I've, as I've been talking to organizations, I'm thinking about this from an interest-based perspective. What are the interests of the people involved? People want to feel included.

Great.

People want to have great teammates. Great. Businesses want to make money. Great. You have to talk about this and you have to talk about it well. So I think just being a bit more pragmatic and less idealistic in my approach of talking about the substance of the book has been really helpful. Because when you approach it more logically in that way, people say, well, damn, even if I didn't want to talk about this, I recognize I can't avoid it. So I might as well do this better.

So in order for us to have those difficult conversations about race or anything else, how can leaders create psychological safety for honest dialogue without fear or defensiveness?

I think the first thing when it comes to creating psychological safety is recognize who has the responsibility for creating the psychological safety. The person in the interaction who has more rank, who has more authority and more status, has the responsibility of being in the creating psychological safety. Let me give a very simple example. Are you familiar with Francis Ngannou? You know?

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

Let's, let's give many names. Francis Ngannou, Mike Tyson, Tyson Fury, big scary guys, right? So if I'm in, I'm a fit guy, you know, I'm not like them, right? So if I'm in a room with them, it is not my responsibility to make them feel safe. What am I going to do to make Francis Ngannou feel safe? Right? It's his job to make me feel safe because my safety is at his discretion. And the thing is, when it comes to psychological safety, it doesn't happen by accident. It happens with intentionality. If you don't have it in your mind of how you as a leader can make the person feel safe in the interaction, then it simply won't happen because we'll operate on our assumptions. I know my intentions. It should be obvious, so I won't say that. So let me give an example. Pre-marriage Kwame. So in undergrad, I remember Whitney one time said, hey Kwame, I wish you would tell me that you love me more. And I said, well, wait, I recognize that, but it's obvious that I love you. And if I just keep on saying I love you all the time, it's like, uh, like economics. If I flood the market with this commodity called love, then it diminishes value. And, um, Whitney helped me to recognize that economic principles don't apply in relationships. I'm not going to make Mike Tyson feel safe. And so I realized, oh, I need to say the obvious thing that's in my heart in order for the person to perceive and understand it and appreciate it. And so when it comes to psychological safety, it's not hard to do. It just takes intentionality. And so we often have our ego wrapped up in my greatness, and my benevolence is so obvious that I don't even need to articulate it. And that is exactly what holds us back from doing in it. So just say, hey, listen, I want to have this conversation with you. We've been working together for a long time, and I appreciate everything that you bring to the organization. And the thing is, given my perspective and my position, there are things that you see that I can't see and I will never see. So I want you to feel safe sharing this with me because your information helps me to be a better leader and make better decisions. That took 12 seconds, right? Yeah. But that means so much. And maybe I ask a question saying, okay, so out of curiosity, what decision would you make under these circumstances? And again, I'm not holding anything against you. I just want to truly understand where you're coming from. So it's not just asking the question, it's adding that additional layer of safety, saying, this is why I'm asking for it. This is why I care. Don't worry, you are still safe in this interaction. And you just do that with consistency. And since Brian's here, the— one of the things he said about trust is that it's consistency of word and deed. So I'm going to speak in terms of psychological safety, and then I'm going to carry that for the duration of the conversation. So, I'm not just going to say, "Hey, you're safe," and then engage in retribution after the fact. I need to then follow through with that and actually mean it for the long term.

Well, I actually believe one place where I've learned to be better at conflict is my marriage. I've been married since 2001. I don't usually do this, but can you tell us what is the secret of your marriage. And our people who are listening to us who are married, I think that's really probably the best lab, I think, for any person, man or woman, to really learn how to deal with conflict and come to a resolution that's a win-win for everyone.

I think it's constant negotiation. But again, going back to my definition, anytime you're in a conversation and somebody wants something, so you have to be in communication. And then you also have to be willing to listen too. I think a lot of times people don't recognize their communication problem stems from the fact that they don't know that there are two parts of the interaction too. So it's not just you saying your piece, it's you listening to their piece too, you know. So you have to make space for the other person as well. And again, when it comes to listening, this is— it's like a forgotten art. And a lot of times the more emotional you are, the more right you feel. And the more right you feel, the less likely it is that you're taking the other the person's perspective into consideration too, you know. So I think it's important to negotiate, communicate, also listen, be willing to adjust, and, um, also recognize that not every problem has a meaningful solution too. That's another thing too. We can't solve every problem. Sometimes it requires acceptance, um, and— but I think at the heart of it all is commitment, because you have— at the end of the day, you still have to be committed to each each other. You know, I, I was on a podcast the other week and they— it was about determination, and he said, what's your definition of determination? And I said, it's making a promise to yourself and keeping the promise. So think about it. If you say, okay, I want to start a business, that's— it's simple enough. You go down, Secretary of State, you incorporate it, get a bank account, and then you start to make money. That essentially is what a business is. As you go through that process, you're going to run into a lot of obstacles that you did not anticipate. Anticipate. But determination means that you still stay committed to the outcome despite the amount of obstacles that get in your way. And I think with relationships, that's really what it is. You have to be determined. You have to be committed to the outcome, committed to the relationship. So it's like, we're going to stay together and work through this. The only question is how, and I'll put in as much work as it takes in order to get there. And a lot of times it's way more than you would have anticipated. And I think I can only— let me only speak for myself. I think there are lots of times in our relationship where it could not have worked out, but it was our determination and commitment for the outcome and for the relationship that got us through it because it kept us in the moment to stay focused and figuring out what is required from each of us in order to keep moving forward.

Well, thank you so much for sharing that. Yeah, after 24 years of marriage, I told my wife, right, if whenever she wanted to leave me, she's gonna have to take me with her. We're gonna leave me together because That's like a bit Ventura, but yeah, this is powerful. Before I switch over to leadership, we have about 15 minutes left. Your number one podcast in the world, Negotiate Anything, over 16 million downloads, 180 countries. I think you've interviewed more than 1,700 leaders, negotiators, and thinkers. Out of all of that experience, what is one negotiation myth you wish would disappear forever?

Well, first let me give a shout out to my friend Rebecca Zung, because she passed me this year. So she's the number one negotiation podcast now.

Now.

Her YouTube page has like 500,000 followers. I can't compete with that. Not yet. I'm coming back.

Okay.

But I think one of the things that is a negotiation myth that is really problematic is that negotiation is the art of deal making. It's not. I feel like negotiation is the art of deal discovery. We're going into this conversation trying to discover whether or not a deal exists. If a deal exists, we'll find it. That's Great. If a deal doesn't exist, no harm, no foul. We go our separate ways. Because if you think about it in terms of deal making, it often leads to dealmaker's bias, which is about the ego where you say, I'm running into obstacle, obstacle, obstacle. But I am so good at this skill that I can get this done no matter what. I can get this done. Unexpected obstacle, unexpected difficulty, doesn't matter. I will get this done.

And you can.

And you can. And you will then ultimately regret it because a lot of times the worst outcome you could have is a deal that should have never been made, right?

Yes.

So think about getting into a business partnership with the wrong person, getting into a relationship or marriage with the wrong person, and you had all of these red flags that you discovered through these tough conversations and you still bullied your way through it. It's problematic. And I think a lot of times it doesn't just come from the ego that drives you to, to push to get these outcomes and these conclusions. But it also comes from a lack of confidence in your alternatives. If I feel like I will be okay either way, then I don't feel any level of desperation. And one of the worst things you can feel in a negotiation is desperation, right? When you think about leverage, a very simple, simple analysis is whoever needs the deal most loses. Think about it. Because if I feel like I need this deal, then I'm going to do whatever it takes to get it, which might mean inappropriate compromise. Compromises. So how much is a bottle of water? Like a dollar, maybe if you're at an amusement park, $6. But what if you are on your 48th hour without any water and you— there's one bottle of water, how much is that bottle of water? It might be everything you have because otherwise you might not— you might die, right? So if you in your mind think that you need this deal, then the other person has you because you're going to make compromise after compromise to it. So I think if you start to recognize that negotiation is not the art of deal-making, it's the art of deal discovery, then you allow yourself to recognize that negotiation is a problem-solving tool. And sometimes you can solve the problem by getting an agreement here, and sometimes it helps you to gather the information you need to recognize that I need to use one of my alternatives and find a better solution.

Yes. Wow, that is powerful. Okay, I think that is definitely worth the price for anybody listening right there. So let's switch over to leadership. This is where I try to get into your mind to kind of extract those leadership principles that have made you you. So let's start with what do you think is the most important lesson you've learned so far in life, in leadership, in general?

So I've created my own kind of life philosophy. So I call it Levelism. So the goal is to level up in all aspects of your life whenever possible. And so I want to level up through two domains. It's strength and wisdom. So strength could be mental, emotional, physical strength. I want to get— keep on getting better in those regards. But then also wisdom, that's discernment, that's decision-making. It's practical intelligence. Important to say practical intelligence because there's a lot of impractical kind of academic theoretical intelligence. It's practically applied intelligence. And so for me, what I've learned is that when it comes to challenges in life, if I look at it through this levelism philosophy, then I've recognized that with consistency, the challenges that I approach in life come from a challenge of either deficiency of strength or wisdom. I need to get maybe emotionally stronger. For some reason, I was not resilient enough in this situation, so I need to do what it takes to get stronger. Or wisdom. There was something that I did not know at the time that had I known it, I would have had a solution for this problem. So I need to study up, get better in this type of solution. So it helps me to be very pragmatic and productive in terms of moving forward. So whenever I reach a challenge, and I'm kind of stuck, I say, okay, where do I need to level up? And so then my assumption is just kind of like a video game. Let's say you go from level 1 to level 2, level 3. Cool. So when you're on level 1, level 1 is really, really, really, really hard. And then you struggle to level 2. But if you go to— if you make it to level 12, but you go back to level 1 just for fun, you're like, this was so easy. Why didn't I have this, right? So for me, that's the way I think about Got it. So if I continue to level up through strength and wisdom, then I will not just— help me— it will not just help me in this specific challenge, it'll help me with all similar challenges. And then it helps me to also take extreme ownership and accountability for everything that happens in my life. It's not saying that I control everything, or I can, but there are things that are within my control. So I'm always going to look through it, look for those things through those pillars of strength and wisdom.

Wow, that is really, really powerful. What do you think is the secret of your success? Like I say, it would take us hours to just go through all of your achievements. Is there anything you haven't done yet? Why are you so successful?

Thank you.

Well, I think it's a commitment to it where I don't want to, at the end of my life, look back and say to myself, man, there was something left in the tank. I don't want to have a life unexplored. You know, it's my curiosity that drives me. And so I think about it like my son, who's 4, just a couple years ago when he was smaller, when he was 2, he couldn't see what's on top of the counter. I can see what's on top of the counter. It's not that impressive. It's not that exciting, right? But for him, because he doesn't know, he want— all he wants to do is climb up and look, right? And so for me in life, that's, that's what I want to do. What's on top of the counter? And then I get on top of the counter. Wait, there's another counter up there? What, what's that? So I want to get there too. And I recognize that there are things that can hold me back, and I don't want anything to hold me back from satisfying the insatiable curiosity that I have. What's on the next level? What's on a new level? So in other words, in order to get to the next level, again, I have to level up. So for me, in 2026, the main goal is scaling. So we do, we have with the American Negotiation Institute, we have two sides of the business. We have the media side of the business where we have courses and books and the podcast, and we get revenue that way. Lots of LinkedIn Learning courses. 48 LinkedIn Learning courses. We just got contracted for 3 more. And we've had over 2.5 million people go through the courses. We've certified 45,000, over 45,000 people globally in negotiation. So that's the media side. And then on the training and development side, we do the keynotes and the public speaking. That's what people see the most. But I want to add a more robust consulting element to it because I believe that would be more scalable. I can't really fit too many more speaking engagements into my calendar, but I can scale. I believe I can scale with a consult, a more robust consulting arm that deals with conflict consulting. So if leaders within a company are struggling to make a decision, embracing a lot of conflict, we can— it could be me and my team going in to solve that. And then deal consulting. So if there are big deals, mergers, big acquisitions, big business development opportunities that come about, out and people want additional negotiation support, we could come in and do that. Um, and that will— that's the goal for 2026, continuing to build out the team and scaling, um, because there is a very limited time that I have for more speaking opportunities.

Wow. So what, what are you learning right now?

This is going to sound kind of cliché, um, but I'm learning to trust my instincts more and really understand what instincts are, because I think we can, we can think about it from a, like a biological animalistic type of way, which is limited. Um, you are human, animal instincts can only get us for so far. But when it comes to your true instincts, when it comes to business decision-making, the instincts come from pattern recognition that we might not be able to perceive consciously. And what I found is that a lot of times I will instinctually know what the right answer is or right decision would be or, and then I will overthink my way out of it, or I will instinctually know what the right answer is and then think and think and think, study, study, study, research, research, research, and say, oh, I was right, but I didn't consciously know why I was right. And when I think about some of the best leaders, they talk about their instincts. And I know for me, I had a kind of, uh, touchy relationship with the idea of trusting your gut or your instincts, because in psychology they would describe that as a bias. And a lot of times it can be utilized in a very negative way. If it's a bias that is pattern recognition based on media representations of a, uh, of a, a group of people that is inaccurate or highly problematic. So I was always very skeptical of my gut. But then when I recognized that in a lot of times in very narrow circumstances within businesses or things that you have studied a lot, that pattern instincts are just pattern recognition. So I I recognize that I would be better as a leader and a strategist if I allocated less cognitive energy toward overthinking and was more in flow with making more intuitive decisions. And it's paid off this year, and I want to do more because I feel like in life we live our life decision to decision, and the quality of our life will be determined by the decisions that we make. But not just the decision quality, it's decision velocity. If I can be more instinctual, then I can make more decisions faster, and then I could move forward faster. So that's really what I'm focused on now, trying to be a bit more instinctual in the way that I lead.

Incredible. And of course, you know, about all of your successes, too many to mention. What about failure? How has failure shaped your life?

Oh, it's crucial. And I had to reexamine my relationship with failure because failure isn't a state. Failure is a tool if you use it the right way. Because if you say it's a state, then it could easily become an identity. I'm, I'm in failure and I might be a failure, right? But I think it's recognition that, oh no, failure is a tool. It's— I did not get the outcome that I wanted. Great. Let me evaluate this and learn. And this might be another thing that sounds weird, especially as we're going to go and do a book recommendation. Foundations. One of the goals that I had, a New Year's resolution— I almost got it, didn't get it— was to not read any books this year, which sounds weird. Yeah, yeah. Because I was on a— because again, what I was talking about earlier with being worthy of leadership, I wanted to make sure that I was learning as much as possible. I want to be a student of the game of negotiation. I want to be a better business mind because I have a degree in psychology, law, and public policy. Not, not business. So I wanted to learn business. So I was on this cadence of reading a book every single week, but I was getting too much in my head and not giving myself time to actually execute. I was just kind of learning, learning, learning. And so I recognized that I need to just be more intuitive, kind of pull back and trust my judgment a little bit more. Um, so that's one thing that I've been doing. I lost the, the plot with the original question that you Oh, but this is good.

That's good.

Okay, good.

Wow. So talking about book recommendation on LinkedIn, you've mentioned this one. Why should people read this? And of course, everybody watching, they absolutely have to purchase this one, To Have Difficult Conversations and Finding Conflict. But outside of your own books, what about this one?

So this one's great. It's Oscar Trimbley. He's an Australian business leader who turned into listening expert.

Bird.

Um, it was one of those situations, and this was deep into the podcasting game too, so I've had like hundreds of interviews to this point, but it was one of those interviews where I remember I was just listening to him and then he asked me a question and then I snapped back. There was a delay and I snapped back. I'm like, I'm so sorry, Oscar, I forgot that I was hosting this interview. I felt like I was watching a podcast, you know. I was, I was— his approach to listening was so novel and technique that it really stopped me in my tracks. And I think it's a really good tool to kind of rethink listening because it's one of those most— the most fun foundational skills. But I think it is the lack of self-awareness that people have of the levels that you can get to when it comes to listening.

Wow, that is powerful.

Really good.

Like my mom and grandma used to say, God gave you two ears and one mouth, so use them in that proportion. But what about this one? Forces for Good.

Yes, Lucia. So this is a great book. It talks about how you can use negotiation and conflict resolution and driving toward positive social outcomes. And I really like that element because a lot of the negotiation books that are out there are all about enriching yourself more or less. It's very transactional. But this talks about how you can actually move the conversation forward in a direction that not just betters you and the other person, but society as a whole.

Wow.

So we only have 3 minutes left. I'm going to try to land this plane soon. So I'm going to have more book recommendations from Kwame Christian in the article I'm going to write right after this podcast. So let me ask you this. This is one of my favorite questions. If you could choose 3 people to have dinner with, they could be alive, dead, or mythical figures, who would you choose and why?

Ooh, mythical figures too? That's fascinating.

Game.

I would say I want to see some— I want to talk to some changemakers. It would be— imagine a table with Kwame Nkrumah, Martin Luther King Jr., and Gandhi. Yeah, that would be fascinating.

Amazing. And of course, I was— don't know, Kwame Nkrumah is really what I call the Martin Luther King of Africa. Really transformational leader. Amazing. Okay, uh, if you had one and only one day to live, What would you have liked your final contribution to be?

I think it's really the thought leadership that I've already created and my family too. It's those two things. The family is the legacy and the thought leadership is my contribution to society. For me, it's a— there's a spirit of generosity that pushes everything that I do. And like I said before, the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. But I'll also add this: I believe that the greatest existential threat to humanity is our inability to resolve conflict. Whatever you think the most important pressing issue is that humanity has to address, there is a difficult conversation that is lurking somewhere there that needs to happen or is currently happening very poorly. So for me, I wanted to create the world's largest, most robust online library of content on this topic, you know, because in the past when it came to negotiation, it was reserved for the elite. So yes, we had the books, but then it was really just the ivory towers. You learned it in not even undergrad, but in grad schools or very high-priced negotiation programs. So for me, yes, the, the, my, my corporate clients will continue to pay, right? But everything else is done with the spirit of generosity. So no matter what you like, who you are, where you are, you can afford $0 and you can get access to over 1,700 episodes of the podcast where we interview the greatest minds in negotiation. If there's a book that has been written on negotiation and the author is still alive and it's been widely read, that author has been on the show and they've shared their best techniques for free on the podcast.

That's amazing. Amazing. Thank you. Thank you. We are already running out of time, but I must ask you, if you had a magic wand, you could solve any problem. What is one problem problem you'd like to solve tomorrow morning?

I would say it would be the problem related to communication. I would want everybody to instantly be able to download the Compassionate Curiosity Framework and use it. And one of my favorite questions that I get asked is, "Hey, Kwame, okay, I understand this approach to difficult conversations. What if you are up against somebody who's using the exact same playbook as you?" So really, transactional negotiators, they struggle. They're like, "Ooh, how would I defeat myself in this?" But for me, I'm like, that question is the exact same question as what if I'm in a relationship and my partner loves me too much, right? So what is it? So the person is going to listen too much, they're going to care about my needs, they're going to work with me. I think I can handle that, right? And so if everybody could just download this and actually use it in their toughest conversation, I think it'll make the world a better place. I think that's the biggest change.

Wow. All right, we already running out of time, but I want to give you a chance. This very question I should have asked you is that I didn't have a chance. Chance to ask.

Um, no, I think this is great. You covered everything. This was a lot of fun.

Thank you so much. I really, really appreciate that. Then, uh, one last, uh, last question I want to ask you, maybe one of the most important questions here, is, uh, if you could go back and give a piece of advice to your 17-year-old self, you know, standing at this incredible— at the edge of this incredible career you've had, what would you say to 17-year-old Kwame?

17. So that's like me exactly as I'm entering um, school, it would be to journal. That would be my advice. Journal. So journal your thoughts. I'm— that's the— that's one of the biggest things that I do right now. Like, I dictate my, my journaling. So what I would do is I would— any thoughts that I care to think again, I'd journal that. Any decision that went well, I'll write down why it went well. Any decision that went poorly, I'll write that down, analyze it so I don't make the same mistake again. Um, all of my life lessons, I'll journal it. And sometimes when— because I dictated, I can actually quantify this— sometimes month to month it could be up to 100,000 words of journal thoughts, right? And then I would turn it into an audio, listen to it on MP3 so I could actually listen and continue to get better. That's how I would level up through Levelism, like I described earlier. So if I started that process, then I could not imagine where I would be now.

Yes. Thank you. Thank you for your time. You've been so, so, so generous. Very, very last question. Is what is one word that will present our shared experience on this podcast today?

One word to represent it? Um, oh, one word. I don't want to give you a throwaway. I would say necessary. This is necessary. Yes, I think it's necessary. I think when, when people leave, leave this audio or video, however you're watching it, you can immediately see how you could apply the things that we've talked about to have a much better life too. So I I think this conversation was necessary.

So thank you so much for your generosity, for your wisdom, and for being one of our master teachers today. Thank you, Kwame Christian.

My pleasure. Thank you.

Wow.

Well, everyone, that was the one and only Kwame Christian. He was right here live on the Leadership and Success Podcast. And please make sure to follow him on LinkedIn or all of the other social media. But since we're on LinkedIn now, so, uh, the website, linkedin.com/KwameChristian, but also go to his website, kwamechristian.com. And especially if you need to hire him and his team for negotiation workshop and all of that, like he says, that's the focus for 2026. So I am really, really overjoyed to be speaking to really my mentors and legend people I really follow. And I'm really excited about, like, tomorrow will be a day just Like today, I'm going to have a great privilege of speaking to the one and only General Stanley A. McChrystal, U.S. Army retired. This is the one man that really changed the trajectory of the war in Afghanistan. Legendary servant leader, 4-star warrior, scholar, serial bestselling author. He's written like 5 books, the last 3 on character, leaders, and team of teams. He is going to be here tomorrow. And then on Thursday, I am going to have retired Senior Master Sergeant Jeff Willey, he's a professor now, educator, mentor, transformational servant leader from senior master sergeant to professor. He's going to be on Thursday and then on Friday, it's gonna be my last Christmas gift of the season, we're gonna be talking to the Command Sergeant Major Aldrich Williams Senior, US Air Force retired heard, transition architect, mentor, purpose-driven servant, and also bestselling author of two books, Navigating Transition and Lead with Purpose. He's going to be here on Friday. All right, that's what I have for you. And thanks again for being with us today. And until tomorrow, have a wonderful day. Thank you. Bye-bye.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired. Stay committed and keep leading with excellence.