S4:E126🎙️ Live with General Stanley McChrystal, U.S. Army (Ret.) (Multi Tracks Audio)

¡Hola!

Hi, I'm John Maxwell. When the top companies in the world are looking for trainers, speakers, and coaches, coaches, there's one name that stands above the rest, and that's Maxwell Leadership. Our certified team members have gotten proven results for companies all over the globe, and our reputation, I'm proud to say, is second to none. Some of our members have risen to the top of their profession, including the one you're going to meet today. I proudly introduce you to my friend Bob Fabien Zinga. Bob Fabien Zinga.

Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ, where we help you lead with purpose and succeed with impact. If you're ready to grow into the kind of leader others want to follow, this podcast is for you. If you're determined to elevate your success and leave a lasting legacy, this podcast is for you. As my mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell, reminds us, everything Rises and falls on leadership. Our goal is simple: to inspire you, challenge you, and equip you with insights that can transform the trajectory of your leadership journey. Welcome aboard to another episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast with Coach BZ.

Business today is more like warfare than you think. I spent 34 years in the United States Army I commanded 150,000 soldiers. Now I advise Fortune 500 companies how to move fast when it matters most. You don't train for calm, you train for chaos. I'm going to teach you how to lead faster, move smarter, and build teams that don't break under pressure. Most companies don't fail because they lack talent, they fail because their leadership playbook is out of date. Avoiding risk isn't Safe is slow, and slow is deadly. I'm General Stan McChrystal, and this is MasterClass.

All right, everyone. Welcome to a very special edition of the Leadership Success podcast. I'm not going to spend too much time. Normally, I start with my moment of gratitude, but Today we have a very special guest, really a man who doesn't need to be introduced at all. We are going to be speaking with the one and only General Stanley McChrystal. To me, he's really a living legend, one of the most consequential military and leadership thinkers of our time, and we are so grateful to have him on the podcast today. So he's a transformational military leader, a 4-star general who revolutionized US counterterrorism operations. He commanded the Joint Special Special Operations Command and the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force Afghanistan, and reshape modern warfare through adaptability, interagency collaboration, and the team of teams model. He's a global authority on leadership and organizational performance, a best-selling author, serial best-selling author, founder of the McChrystal Group, and world-renowned advisor to Fortune 500 companies, known for his groundbreaking insights on trust, decentralized execution, and leading through complexity. He's a champion of character, service, and national renewal, a powerful advocate for civic service, ethical leadership, and character-driven decision-making embodied in his latest best-selling book on character. I definitely want everybody to be speaking about character and getting a copy of this book, right? Choices That Define a Life, and his role as chair of Service Year Alliance. So ladies and gentlemen, without any further ado, please help me welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast, General Stanley Allen McChrystal. Good morning, sir. How are you doing this morning, General?

BZ, thanks for having me. I'm doing great.

Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. Really, my audience, especially my J.O.s, are so excited about learning from you today, sir. I guess maybe to get started, what are you grateful for this morning?

Well, at 71 years old, I'm grateful that I'm still able to work. I'm still able to be part of an organization I love. I have a family. I've got a wife of 48 years. Almost 49. So I've got this thing about my life that has just turned out right, not because I was good, but because I was lucky.

Wow. That is quite amazing. And I think your life is so public and you are so transparent, but is there something about you, sir, that most people may not know about?

Well, I certainly wouldn't want to say it out on a podcast. I think it is that I like to work. Now, people may know that, but, you know, people often ask me why I don't retire, why I don't do something. I actually enjoy being around the people that I work with. I enjoy the challenge of it, and I think many of us do, and I don't think we have to be embarrassed about that.

Well, now, during the intro, I did show a picture of your father, who was a major general. You definitely come from a long line of service member, right, a proud family of military service. What early lessons from your parents and especially your father, Major General Albert McChrystal, shaped your understanding of leadership?

Well, my father was a quiet man, and so you never heard him brag. You never heard him be the kind of pushy leader. Now, I was not with him in Vietnam in combat, so he may have been different, But I'm told that he wasn't. He was self-effacing. He was focused on the mission and serious, but he was not the kind of person that wanted the spotlight on himself.

Wow.

Quite amazing. And looking back at your time at West Point, sir, what moment or mentor most influenced the leader you would become?

To have the context of that, you need to understand I went to West Point at 17, pretty immature. My first 2 years, I didn't do very well academically. I didn't do very well in terms of discipline. I got in a lot of trouble. I almost got thrown out. And at the beginning of my junior year, after these 2 troubled years, I had a new tactical officer come in, a guy named David Barato. And he, in his first interview with me as he was meeting all the new cadets on one-on-ones, he told me, I think you're going to be a great cadet for the next 2 years, and you're going to be a really good Army officer. And I remember being shocked because I'd been such a terrible cadet. And I said, I think you're mistaken me for somebody else. And he said, no, the things that you are doing well at are the things that are going to count in the Army. And the things you haven't done well at are really just unique to West Point. And he showed— what he was doing, he was showing a confidence in me that I didn't have in myself. And it made a big difference.

Wow, that is quite amazing. And so you've served everywhere from rifle platoon to JSOC to commanding NATO forces. Was there maybe a formative failure early in your career that changed the way how you approach responsibility and self-discipline?

Yeah, I think we all have a bunch of failures that you go on. I just remember one when I was a brand new lieutenant. I wanted to be in charge of this platoon. It was a mortar platoon. And we We went out to do training. And we went to a firing position that we had to coordinate with range control. And when I got there, I was the hard-ass. And I said, we'll dig mortar pits, which is a big amount of work before we do any firing and all this. And they didn't like it, but I was holding the standard. And then I found out that I had selected the wrong firing position. And so we couldn't do the training from there. And so we had to move to another position. Now we just dug for several hours digging these pits. When we got to the new position, the question is, was I going to hold the standard and make them dig in again for my mistake? And I, on the moment, I made them do it. I said, that's the standard, we're going to dig in again. I got in and helped dig because I was, as I did on the first, because I was frankly embarrassed. But the reality is, even when you make mistakes, the key thing I learned at that point is the standard and the mission don't change. You've still got to do it, and you will make mistakes.

Well, sir, in my opinion, you really single-handedly changed the trajectory of the war in Afghanistan. So JSOC kind of became the world's most adaptive, high-velocity counterterrorism force under your command. What principles were essential to transforming what organization into a team of teams?

Yeah, in that particular case, we had a situation where we were very proficient at what we had been doing for years, and suddenly the environment had changed. So we had to change how we operated even though we were celebrated for how good we were before. So that made it harder because people were wedded to what they'd done, they were confident in that. And so the first thing we had to do was convince everyone that the situation had changed, the conditions in which we operated had changed, and that we needed to operate differently. And one of the key things is I had no idea what the new right would look like. And so rather than tell them, okay, this is what we have to do, all I could do is give a hand wave that says, we're gonna do whatever it, I don't know what it takes to win. And so we are going to figure it out together. We're going to try everything. And the things that work, we'll do more of. The things that don't work, we'll stop. And for a leader to tell an organization that I don't know what we're supposed to be, you know, how we're supposed to operate because I don't have the right answer, it turned out to be very good because what it did was it made all of us responsible. For figuring it out. Had I tried to pretend that I knew the right answer and I'd given it to them and it had been wrong, which it would have been, there would have been a real revolt. But as it was, people said, okay, he's honest enough to say he doesn't know the right answer, so we'll figure it out. And that turned out to be key.

That is quite amazing, sir. People with your stature, actually most 4 generals or admirals I meet, are extremely humble. And with all of the achievement, everything you have accomplished, what keeps you so grounded and human?

Well, I think reality does. I think most of us understand that everything that gets done in an organization really gets done by the people close to the problem, whether it's close to the enemy or close to the customer or close to the work at hand. The leaders are only enablers. And most leaders have some form of imposter syndrome because we were all junior and we were knuckleheads just like everybody else. And partly through luck, we rose to a level of responsibility where suddenly everybody treats us with respect and laughs at our jokes and, and does these things. But we know we're the same person we were. And so if you can keep that sense of reality and say, I'm here partially by fate, and so I'm really here just to try to help everybody else get the job done, then I think it gives you a better frame of— humility is the right word.

So in special operations, trust is everything. How do leaders build the kind of trust that withstands uncertainty, pressure, and risk?

Yeah, I think there are some several ways, and I would start is trust comes from interaction. It comes from experience. When I talk to people and I ask them who they trust, they will usually say their spouse or their pastor or their teacher. And I will say McDonald's. And they go, wow, I don't even like that food. And I'd say, it doesn't matter. When you see the sign, you know what it costs. You know what the quality of the food is, you get to make a judgment because you trust that when you see that you can make a decision. Trust usually when someone or an organization comes from interaction over time, where you find out that if you work with me, BZ, you'll find out whether I am competent to do what I claim I do, whether I have good intentions, and whether I have integrity. And you really need to have experience. If I just say, trust me, you know, you'll go, okay, but then you'll test those. So organizations have to create situations where the people who are going to work together get those repetitive interactions. The next thing is certain standards. Like if someone is a Naval officer, you look at them and you say, okay, I know that person went through certain training that I know enough about to know that if they came out and they did okay, that tells me something. So there are a number of things like that, almost qualifications, that can add to it as well.

Well, so we just got our first comment from the live audience. So we have Michael Garrett from Charlotte, North Carolina saying hi, and I have a question from a member of the audience. They are asking, sir, OK, I got it here. How have your views on civil-military relations evolved over the past 15 years, and what guidance would you offer to leaders at all ranks in navigating today's political environment?

Yeah, I would say it's very difficult right now. The civil-military relationship in the United States is based on the idea that the military will remain apolitical. And in response to that, the civilian leadership has got to treat the military apolitically, not pull the military into political discourse or interfere for political reasons. In my entire career, I never knew what political beliefs my peers had, because we didn't talk about it. What's happened in the last 15 years, which is pretty open, is at times there have been perceptions that military get too political, or more recently, that decisions are made about military leaders, removing them for political reasons. What that does is it endangers that relationship. There's a sacred purity. Now, it's never been perfect. You know, in American history, there's always been times we don't get it right. But the goal has to be to keep the military out of the political sphere. As much as possible, and then for the civilian leadership not to politicize how they handle the military.

Well, that is really insightful, and I think really foundational for anybody in the military, I think from E-1 to O-10. I know in boot camp, that's one of the things they definitely emphasized when I went back in 2005. But back to the work you did in Afghanistan, sir. So you led over 150,000 troops on 45 a light nation. That really required unprecedented synchronization. What did you learn about unifying teams who come from very different organizational cultures?

That's a good way to describe it, because all these different nations had different equipment, different training, different backgrounds, histories. So you're trying to connect them to an overarching common mission. So the first thing at my level is to communicate that mission clearly. What are we trying to do? What's the outcome where we need to do it? And try to get people to believe and accept and align on that outcome. And it's not simple because there are other political factors that impact them. Then as you start about operational interaction, you have to recognize that each player on the team comes with different skills, different background. And rather than trying to make everybody equal, you have to use them for what they are good at. And don't denigrate those who are not as good at one thing just because that— if you talk, a 300-pound lineman is not going to be as fast as a slim wide receiver, but they do different jobs. And so it is respecting each of the elements makes each of the the nations in that case feel like a part of the team. Wow.

So when you think about Afghanistan today, what leadership lesson do you believe are most important for future military and civilian leaders to study?

Yeah, I think there are a couple and I'd like to expand beyond one. The first is understand the problem you are trying to solve. When we operated in Afghanistan, we did so with courage, we did it so with good intent. We spent 20 years there. But the reality is, we didn't understand the nation, we didn't understand the culture, we didn't really understand the reality of the politics to the depth that we needed to. And by doing 1-year rotations, for the most part, you almost ensure that every foreign soldier operating there is always like a tourist. They're trying to figure it out. And so that's number 1. It's hard to shape something as complex as a country without that level of understanding. The second is, I think we need unity of effort even greater than within the military. An effort like Afghanistan needs unity at the political level. And so all the nations need to be able to understand we're trying to get a common outcome. And I think we struggled with that a bit, not because people are bad, but because people are human. And so if we read history, we'll see that that's happened many times in the past and we need to go to school on that.

Wow, that is so insightful. So in high consequence environment, leaders often make decision with incomplete information. I know that was true in Afghanistan as well. How did you build a decision-making framework that balanced speed with strategic judgment?

Yeah, this is very important because there are different, situations. If you have plenty of time, I argue, take as much time as you need, get all the stakeholders, get people involved. The first thing is understand how much time you have. Understand when a decision needs to be made so that it can be implemented early enough to meet the requirement of that decision. When you have that kind of situation, then I think you need a very decisive process, brings in just the critical stakeholders, have clarity on what the decision actually is, make the decision. And then what I would say, BZ, the biggest failure I see really is not in decision-making, it's in implementation. People will make a decision, and I see this in civilian companies now, and then they will not convince the organization that it's a final decision. People will go back and revisit it or slow-roll it. And so you have to tell people, Okay, this is the decision. Now we need to implement ruthlessly.

Wow.

But sir, I must say, it seems to me like you are busier now than you were when you were in uniform. Definitely have a much, much greater impact with all of the 5 bestselling books you have, which I really very much appreciate. I really hope every flag officer would at least write one book. I know I'm very grateful. One of my primary mentor, the late great General Carlton is no longer with us, but I still have his two bestselling books and every time I read it, it keeps mentoring me even though he's no longer with us. So thank you, thank you so much for that. I guess my question for you, sir, is why did you choose to build the McChrystal Group after retirement? Like you said earlier, you could have just retired and be done with it. You've done more than enough, more than the average person has ever done for this country. But what leadership gap did you feel American companies urgently needed to address?

First, I'll answer it. My first motivation was very personal, very selfish. I was retiring. I would just turn 56 years old. And I wanted to be part of a team again. I wanted to be part of a team where I like to come to work. I like to interact with the people I'm with. And so we created McChrystal Group partly because that was my passion. I'd spent my life on teams. I wanted to do that. Then as we started operating, what we found is we could help other teams, we could help companies function better. And so having a mission and doing it with people that you admire is the balance that I find really rewarding.

And for those who are listening, like for CEOs and tech executives operating in period of rapid disruption, last 11 years I've been stationed, I live in Silicon Valley. Now we have cyber threats, artificial intelligence, geopolitical risk, and all of that. What core principle for military leadership translates best?

I think it's really adaptability, because a good military leader does a very detailed plan for an operation but knows that it will never unfold as the plan was written. The plan is only a starting point, and they won't get upset by that. What they'll do is when conditions change, they'll see that as opportunities to exploit. And many organizations and some leaders have a difficult time with that. And so I would say that if you, if you create in the organization this mindset that says we are going to adapt whenever there's opportunity, and obviously when there's risk as well, but more often when there's opportunity, then the organization will seek out and they'll exploit that.

So let's talk about your books. I think up until this year, Team of Teams was my best book that you've ever written, but now it absolutely has to be On Character. So this is your latest book, which is an instant bestseller, and it's really starting a national conversation about character, which I think is so needed, especially right now. But What inspired you, sir, to explore character as your central theme at this stage in your life and career?

Yeah, it's different from the other books because I never planned to write it. I was having a bunch of conversations with my wife about different subjects, and she told me, you should write these down. And so I started writing short essays. I call them reflections, 800 to 1,000 words on a range of issues. And when I did that, I realized that they all intersected on the question of character. Because at this stage in my life, I've come to the realization— I've always been taught about character and I've tried to operate with it. But at this stage in my life, I realized it was always the most important thing. In every phase, it was. Sometimes I forgot that. Sometimes I thought it was tactics or this or that. But I go back, it was always character. And now when I see our nation struggling so much with what we want our individual character to be, what character we want to respect, what character we want to follow, what we want our national character to be viewed as around the world, I think we are uncertain. And I think it's time for us to have this national conversation Not that I have the right answer, but I think the right questions can force us to say, stop, what do we want our children to see? What do we want our children to do as they grow up? Because if we miss this opportunity, I fear there'll be a high price to pay.

Yes, and in the book, sir, you write that character is defined by choices, not achievements. I know in the military we do celebrate achievement, quite a lot, but can you share a moment where a difficult choice shaped your own character more than any success ever could?

Yeah. When I left the service, I left because a news story came out or a magazine story came out in Rolling Stone magazine and it portrayed my command team in an unflattering light and created a political story. And I took responsibility for it because it's my job not to put those kinds of stories on the Commander-in-Chief's desk. And it wasn't because I thought the article was accurate, but because I was responsible because I was in command. And with all the things that go with command, the respect and the advantages, also comes responsibility. And you have to accept that. And so at that point in my life, I accepted responsibility for that. And I redirected myself. You know, I went through a period wondering what I would be now that I was no longer a soldier. And you go through a bit of an identity crisis. But I redirected myself and said, I'm not really different. Nothing happened to me that I don't have control over. And so that's when I said, okay, we're going to go forward. And all the things that I had learned, I can use as valuable experience. Experience, and I can be further informed and matured by the fact that I just got knocked down.

Yes.

But am I going to get back up? And I think that that became the most important point in my life in terms of how I think about how we should view life in general, because most of us are going to go through some kind of failure in our lives. And it's how we respond to it that matters.

Well, but I must tell you, sir, during that time I was only a lieutenant, but you definitely made leadership human because even as a 4-star general venerated across all services, I think anybody and everybody could really relate to you. Thank you for being so transparent and leading with character. I don't think there's anybody who could have written this book better than you did. And the book does define character as conviction times discipline. Why is discipline the multiplier?

Yeah, this is the important thing that I think most of us forget. We think that if we have good beliefs and good intentions, that we have good character. And I would argue that character is measured in what we do, not in what we say or write or what even we think we believe. You know, take someone, if If you asked me if I was honest, if I had integrity and I said yes, but then I cheat on my taxes, I don't. And so discipline is the courage, it's the strength to follow through on those things that we believe. And we have to look ourselves in the mirror and ask if we're actually doing it.

Well, so we have another question from the audience. And by the way, I really love interacting with the audience because my first podcast 4 years ago, it was just an audience of one, me, myself, and I. But so a member of the audience is saying, how does character build trust in an organization? How important is building trust in a leader?

Yeah, I think that character usually reflected in leaders, not the single leader of an organization, affects everyone. And people in the organization start to stand up a little straighter. If you've ever been in an organization where you're tempted to do something and someone says, "We don't do that here. We don't drop trash. We don't lie. If you want to be part of this organization, you have to accept those standards." And I think we've all been made better by that. And so some character in an organization becomes infectious. It's almost viral. And so if everybody starts to reflect that, it also becomes a habit. If you show good character, it's interesting, after a while it becomes reflexive. You don't have to think about it. How you treat people with respect and with courtesy is just what you do. You don't have to every time stop and think, how should I treat this person?

Well, I think maybe one of the most important questions I would ask about your books here, because I'm very, very passionate about the next generation of leaders, especially in the military, both enlisted and JOs, but last 11 years, I think Silicon Valley as well. How can today's military officer, engineer, and emerging leaders use the principle of the book to navigate complexity, ethical dilemma, and personal growth, especially in this AI era?

Yeah, I don't think we're doing it very well right now, let me tell you, because we've got a lot of people who have celebrity and power, money, whatever, rank, whatever they sought. And so they then don't display the kind of character that they actually know is right. They back things or say things or do things that aren't the kinds of things we, when we were young, we thought we'd want to do, or certainly not what we want our kids to do. So I think the first thing we have to do is figure out what's important. Because if I look at a politician right now, and I'm down on politicians, if they believe one thing, but they get in front of TV cameras and they say something they know isn't true, because it's good for their political future in the moment, that is a reflection of a weakness of character that it's hard to recover. And so I think leaders have got to say what's most important, so I don't make as much money, so I don't get promoted. So whatever it is, the consequence of showing real character. Think of leaders in the past who have shown real character and paid a price for it, but I don't think they regret it.

Hmm.

Very insightful. The last question I'm gonna ask before we turn over to the second segment where I focus wholly on leadership and more into how you think and the principle you've used to become the legend you've become, sir. As chairman of the Service Year Alliance, you champion the idea that every young American should have the opportunity to serve, not just in the military, but to really serve their country in some way. Why is national service so vital for our democracy's future?

Yeah, I think serving the community, and the community can be the nation, is critical for several reasons. One, because we need everyone to have that habit. You know, we go back to the Greatest Generation when 12+ million Americans were in uniform and everybody else had some way they had to serve the nation. They left that experience feeling as though they were shareholders in America, that they had a right to things about voting and whatnot. And that's part, you know, responsible for the nation. And right now we have very small military. We don't need that many people to enlist in the military, but we do need everyone to, within themselves, have the experience that builds up that, that habit, that belief. And you won't learn civics just in a high school classroom. You learn civics by doing things for society. And so I think that experience starts to build a habit and a belief that is critical. And it can build a link between fellow Americans that otherwise wouldn't interact with each other. And so I think it can be a bridge across our many divides.

Absolutely. And what do you think, sir, is the greatest lesson in life, in leadership in general, you have ever learned?

Yeah, I think that you are the— You have agency over what happens. When you are very successful, how you respond is your responsibility. But more importantly, when you're very unsuccessful, how you respond is up to you. Nobody can take your dignity, your integrity, or your character away. Only you can give it away. And so for me, the biggest thing is understand what's most important. What's the essence of BZ? And don't let anyone else have it or devalue it.

Well, that is powerful. I have a related question to what Michael Garrett is asking about secret. What do you believe, sir, is the secret of your extraordinary success?

Well, I mean, I'll be honest, part of it's just luck. The leaders who get to certain levels are lucky to work work for and with really good people. I think working around really good people gave me examples that I could follow. And also some leaders who taught me discipline sometimes when I didn't want to be taught discipline and forced me to do things that I wouldn't have done otherwise. And so I'm a great believer that that environment shaped me. I don't think anyone comes out of the womb a great leader. I think you learn that. And so I was fortunate enough to have opportunities, but we need to think about that. How do we create opportunities for those people below us who have the talent and the motivation to lead?

Yes. And what do you think, sir, is the greatest leadership advice you have ever received?

I was a brand new lieutenant and I had this issue about whether I was going to support to support a squad leader or a soldier in a disagreement that they had. And the temptation was to support the leader because he's in the chain of command. But the soldier was actually right in the issue. And I remember another leader looked at me, he says, you always have to support what's right. And even though it may be uncomfortable with another leader or somebody you care about, As soon as you don't support what's right, you regret it. And I think that's true even when you get very serious, very senior. Wow.

Always support what is right. I know, I believe all of the military school, first time I heard this was when I went to boot camp, right? Our maxim, I will never cheat, lie, steal, nor tolerate those among us who do. I feel like in the military, it's really one of the best leadership organizations in the world. That's just my opinion, even at the lowest level, because when I joined, I was an E-1 seaman recruit, but even then I had this sense of agency. I lead, I influence myself, even though nobody reports back to me. And I just feel like it is something we really need more in this nation for sure. And of all of the books you've written, like I said earlier, sir, in my opinion, you were really born to write this book. That's the best one. But which one of your books is the best one to you?

I am partial to the same one, On Character, because it's so personal. Each of them has sort of a different angle to them. But On Character, I couldn't have written 20 years ago. I had to be 71 years old to write that. I had to have scar tissue in life and the idea that mortality is real. And so I think it gave me a different perspective.

Powerful. And what are you learning now, General?

Well, I'm deeply involved in AI and how it's going to affect decision-making, how it affects organizations. And at the end of the day, I'm concluding that the human part of us the decision-making, the maturity, the judgment, that will be something that will be increasingly valuable. And so we may not do many of the mundane things, but the essence of who we are, to include our character, will become more valuable than it's ever been in the past. Wow.

Powerful. Are there, sir, any thought leaders who you think my audience should follow?

Oh, leaders in the past?

Yes, in the past or present.

Yeah, I'm not seeing a lot in the present that I urge people to follow. I'm disappointed right now. There are clearly some, but I go back to someone like Abraham Lincoln.

Yes.

We forget that Abraham Lincoln was a one-term congressman when he became president. He had never really led anything. And yet he did this extraordinary leadership performance during a civil war. And he had to make difficult decisions that were controversial. In many cases, he was hated. And to be able to stay the course and sometimes with the sweep of history, it looks easier than it was. And here's a guy who trying to figure it out. And so when I, I understand just how hard it must have been for him, I have even deeper respect.

Well, that is quite powerful because the next question I would ask you, sir, is if you could choose 3 people to have dinner with, they could be alive, dead, or even mythical figures, who would you choose and why?

Yeah, it's a great question. I'd have to go back to Marcus Aurelius and sit down with him because also meditations is fascinating. He was a soldier and an emperor and a philosopher.

Yes.

And I just kind of would love to hear what he has to say about that. George Washington would be fascinating to me. You know, here he is the richest man in the country or close to it. And he puts everything at risk and he does this, leads this revolution for so many years, and then he leads the nation. Yeah. And what would he tell us now if he watched us now? Yes, that would be very interesting to me. And of course Abraham Lincoln, although I think we have more data on Lincoln, we can probably predict what he thought better than any of the others, but he would still to me be fascinating.

Especially one thing I really, really admire about our first president is he refused power, which is extremely, extremely rare. And I wish more politicians would think that way because as you can tell by my accent, so I wasn't born in the US, but I had to study the Constitution before I became a US citizen. And it's just amazing to me how it's pretty clear the intent was to go to Congress or serve for a term or two and then go back into society. But today people pretty much die in office, which doesn't make any sense at all. But anyway, so one question I have for you, sir, what is one book you would recommend outside of your own books?

Yeah, there's a novel from 1968 called Once an Eagle. And when I was a younger officer, most Army officers read it. It's a story of two Army officers going through a career from World War I. And the reason it's so special is it goes into the culture of the military, particularly the peacetime military between between the First and Second World War. But it's a leadership book better than any I've ever read because it's very practical. Now, it's a very long novel. You gotta wanna read it. You know, it takes time, but it goes into the essence of leadership in a way that I think I've not seen in anything else.

Well, Once an Eagle by Anton Meyer, right?

Correct.

Yeah. Wow, this is powerful. Definitely will add that to the reading list. And Actually, before I ask you this question, sir, I just wanna read the first paragraph of your book because I think it is very, very telling. So you write, "If I am ultimately buried at Arlington National Cemetery, my grave by regulation, and just like my father's, will be marked with a 13 by 42 by 4 white marble headstone upon which a maximum of 11 lines of text will record my name." Dates of birth and death, military service, final rank, and perhaps the wars in which I served. On the other side will be my wife's name and the dates of her life. The question I have for you, sir, if you had one and only one day to live, what would you have liked your final contribution to be?

You know, if America started talking about character, and don't attribute to me, but if America started voting based on character, if America started following people on social media based on character, to me that would be the ultimate contribution that anyone could make. If I could even be a small part of that, that would mean a lot. Wow.

And if you had a magic wand, sir, you could solve any problem at all, when you wake up tomorrow morning, what is one problem problem that you would like to solve?

Yeah, I think right now it is the income inequality problem, because if we really go back to problems in— and I'm thinking mostly in our own country— I think income inequality produces inequality of opportunity, inequality of perspective, everything. And I think it's, I think it's something that 30 or 40 years from now we'll look back and we'll go, how could we possibly we have put up with what we have right now. And so, and I don't have the magic way to get there, but it is what I'd like to see.

And is there, sir, maybe a song, a book, or a movie that would be your life's theme or anthem?

Oh, Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail.

Yes, that's very funny.

Scarmi.

Absolutely. So now we get to a part, sir, where I ask you, how can we add value back to you? Thanks so much for making the time to speak to my audience. This has been a great honor. How can we pay it back, sir?

Yeah, it goes back to what I said about character. If people would go into their churches, into their schools, into their workplaces, and they said, let's stop talking about specifics, let's talk about character for a bit. Let's look at character as a metric that we judge people on. Now there's always a temptation to say, that person's a terrible person, but he's our best salesperson or our best ballplayer or whatever. So we'll put up with bad character. What if we didn't do that? What if we said, there is a threshold of character that we require to be a part of this? Be a part. I'd like it to be a part of our society. Now, I don't— I'm not unrealistic. I know that's never been the case entirely, but it could certainly get better than it is. And so that if people could just do that, if people could get in, they go to a town hall with a politician and instead ask them about taxes, look at them and say, Senator, describe your character. Powerful.

Well, sir, you'll be glad to know this is not me, but a member of the audience is saying, "General, you have already contributed greatly to shaping character," and that's a wonderful legacy to have, for sure. So, sir, is there a question I should have asked you that I haven't asked yet as we wind down this episode?

I think you've done a wonderful job, Bizzy, and the audience has helped. And I'd just like to thank you for the opportunity to be on Thank you so much.

And I think probably one of the most important questions I'm going to ask then is, if you could go back and give a piece of advice to your 17-year-old self standing at the edge of this incredible career you've had, what would you say to 17-year-old Stan?

Yeah, it would go back to the idea of character and discipline. I almost derailed my entire career my first 2 years at West Point because I was immature. I didn't realize that there's consequences for what you do. Now, I'm not telling people to live like a monk, but what I am telling people is to understand that we build our lives over time and character doesn't change. We may change with age and what we do, but the centrality of those things like integrity, like loyalty, they never change. And so I would go back and say, That's the most important thing. Don't worry too much about everything else.

And I believe the final question I have for you, sir, is what would be your last word to the future generation of America, the people I am very, very much passionate about, especially in the military and in high tech?

Yeah. Remember, it's not about us because we are all going to die. And so I would tell everybody, All we are doing is contributing during the period we are here, and then we're going to be dead and gone, and the most we'll have is a headstone. So it's the legacy you leave in terms of an example to people. It's not your money, it's not your rank, because that all goes away. It is what did you contribute to the character of the nation.

Well, thank you so much, sir. And I know you are pressed for time. Really, really appreciate every minute we we've had on this podcast. And this is really the Christmas gift from you to the audience of the Leadership Success Podcast. Thank you, General.

You're so kind to have me. Thanks for everybody.

Wow. All right, everybody, this was the one, the only, the legendary General Stan McChrystal. And we have so much to learn from him. And again, I want everybody to continue the discussion on character and follow the General on LinkedIn. So that's linkedin.com/stanmccrystal. I would also urge everybody to get a copy of the book, especially the one on character. I think this is a book you need to read very, very slow and really think about almost every line. It's not just knowing what it says, but being able to apply it daily. And I think start a discussion in your community. So I want to let everybody know, like I've done for the last 4 years, when I was first challenged for the 21 Grateful Challenge, that's where someone has to be thankful for one thing every single day for the next 21 days, and then each day challenge a member of their network to do the same. So, and part of the reason why we do this on the Leadership Success Podcast and why it's 21 days and not 22 or 25, is because in the military, it's about 21 service members commit suicide every single day. It's really an epidemic, and we believe you cannot be suicidal, you cannot be depressed and be grateful at the very same time. So it's that moment of the show, and today being the last day of the 21 Grateful Challenge, I really would like to ask you if you can maybe close your eyes, take a deep breath, and just think about one thing you are grateful for today. And I think today I am really grateful for really the giant like General Mike Miley. He was my leader. Anyway, there are people who just lead just because of who they are, and they lead by example, and they are a role model for so many many other people. And I think it would be impossible for me, like I said, I was a lieutenant back then, I am a commander now. It wouldn't be possible for me to be a commander, have all of the opportunities I have today if I didn't follow the example of the mentors, the leaders that I met one-to-one and those that I followed from afar, especially those who write books. And you can really be mentored and read those and really apply those principles into your own life. So I am very, very, very grateful for that. So what I will do now is I am going to go back to the screen and we're gonna use the, what I call the wheel of names. This is where I am going to randomly select a member of my network and see who I am going to challenge this time around. So let me click on the wheel and let's see. Okay, it's All right, so it looks like Jonathan, host of English with Jonathan, is connected. So Jonathan, you will learn over the next 21 days, you are going to be grateful on LinkedIn for one thing every day, and each one of these It looks like according to LinkedIn, you have about 31,000 followers. So you are going to select one of your 31 followers for the next 21 days to accept the challenge as well. So Jonathan, I really hope you will accept the challenge. All right, this is it for us today. Happy holidays and Merry Christmas. And tomorrow, first day, I will have the pleasure of speaking with Professor Jeff. Professor Jeff is a former senior master sergeant in the US Air Force, a caterer, mentor, transformational servant leader, and is going to be with us here tomorrow. And then on Friday, I will have the great pleasure of speaking to Command Sergeant Major Algarisha Williams, US Air Force, is a transition architect, mentor, purpose-driven servant leader, and serial bestselling author of Navigating Transition and Leading with Purpose is going to be with us on Friday. Alright, until tomorrow, thank you so much for being with us on the Leadership Success Podcast. Have a wonderful day. Bye.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership Success Podcast with your host, Coach Bisi. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with Excellence.