S4:E42🎙️ LIVE — Influence or Manipulation?

Hi, I'm John Maxwell. When the top companies in the world are looking for trainers, speakers, and coaches, there's one name that stands above the rest, and that's Maxwell Leadership. Our certified team members have gotten proven results for companies all over the globe, and our reputation, I'm proud to say, is second to none. Some of our members have risen to the top of their profession, including the one you're going to meet today. I proudly introduce you to my friend, Bob Fabien Zinga.

Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If you need to develop into a better leader, this podcast is for you. If you want to achieve a greater level of success, this podcast is for you. His mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell, said it best: everything rises and falls on leadership. We hope to inspire you today and provide you with an insight that has the potential to positively impact the trajectory of your life. Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast.

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Hello everyone, this is Coach Bizzy. Thank you so much for being with me today. Today I was supposed to be talking with the one and only Phil R. Taylor. Unfortunately, we had to reschedule, so he's going to be back here on Monday, live on LinkedIn. YouTube. It's gonna be 11 AM Pacific time, so 2 PM on the East Coast. So come back Monday and Phil will be here live. He is the CEO of Gold Achiever Summit, which is taking place this December 29th, 30th in Orlando, Florida. So I encourage everybody to go. Now I want to just remind you, thank you so much for watching me live. Please like the post and comment. Let us know where you are coming from. So where are you joining us from? What city? What state or country if you are outside of the US? And also, if you know someone in your network that might benefit from what we're going to be talking about, please go ahead and tag them. And I really do appreciate that. And this week was a wonderful week for the Leadership Success podcast. I've spoken to some phenomenal leaders. One of them is Dr. P.W. Singer. I first found out about him when I read this book as an information warfare officer, Cybersecurity and Cyberwar. This is required reading for us, but he also wrote another book, Wired for War. Highly, highly recommend those, especially for those who are in the military, any branch. So I am going to play a quick clip from the historic podcast we had here. I believe that was on Wednesday morning.

Here we go.

That's the, you know, elementary, junior high school version of it.

Yes.

What really, uh, the, the, the graduate school version of master is more about cross-domain. So How can my action in one domain affect another? And to recognize that the, um, the math is different. So, uh, a small, for example, you know, out of your career area, a small tactical cyber action can have a strategic effect in the space domain or the land or air domain. Oh, by the way, it might not just be a direct— it might be I have an effect on the space domain such that then that has an effect on the land domain.

Yes.

And then finally, the math is different in terms of the timeline. It's not— it may be that small tactical action has that effect 10 hours later. 10 months later. That's the part that's really complicated and to master. It's, um, you know, for the sci-fi fans watching, it's, um, we're moving into three-dimensional chess, uh, from Star Trek. And I don't think we've really come to grips with that. It's because it's, um, it really leads to changes and, you know, again, everything from doctrine to training. You know, that, that young Army officer could be the one that wins the naval fight.

So we really live into a very interesting time. I'm so glad I'm alive in the 21st century, in the age of AI. So many things are changing, and today we really need leaders to be not just good in one domain, but really in multiple domains. Like Dr. Zinga says, it's like I'm playing 3-dimensional chess. So hopefully some of what I do here with my podcast and my daily leadership devotion is helping you guys get different ideas or kind of figure out what you know and what you don't know, and maybe some curiosity and interest into learning something from another field or even from your background that you can now apply in cyber or cyber warfare or another discipline. So that was episode 37 with Dr. P.W. Singer. So go on all of the major podcast platforms, you're going to see it. Season 4, Episode 37, live with Dr. P.W. Singer. And I also add another great leader this week, my friend, international keynote speaker, Michael J. Pope Jr. And he's written a book, Doers Win the Day. So I encourage everybody to purchase the book. And he's also going to be a speaker at the upcoming Goal Achievement Summit in Orlando, which I mentioned earlier. So here's a quick clip with Michael for Episode 39 this week.

Susan Jeffers, Feel the Fear, Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. And I remember reading through that book, and that helps me to overcome some fear. And then reading Ryan's book about Chasing Failure, I'm like, yeah, I need to do that more. Right? Just keep, keep chasing failure. And don't be afraid of it. Just do it. And so now my biggest thing is, if I'm, if I'm about to do something new, I want to do it and fail as as possible and get a result and then improve that result. And I relate it well to that because I'm a software developer. And so as a software developer in IT, we know, hey, you write some code, the first code is going to have issues, you want to get to those bugs as soon as possible, right? So it's like you write it, then you get an issue, you fix it and make it better, right? And then you keep releasing it. That's why like all your software programs are constantly having updates and things to it, because we realize, okay, You're gonna write some code, then you can always make it better. You can always make it better. You can always make it better, right? And so I learned that principle of just chasing failure. So I'm looking for opportunities. Hey, how can I go outside of my comfort zone? Whether it's with speaking, whether it's with, you know, writing a book, or whatever it is, stretch myself a little bit, feel that fear, but stretch myself and do it anyway, reward myself for doing like, yes, did it. Now I face another fear. And you have to keep doing that over and over and over.

Wow. That is— and that's something I've definitely lived here in Silicon Valley, you know, with the agile methodology. Usually the very first version of the software isn't that good, but in time, you know, it gets better and better and better. We really— All right. That was our international keynote speaker. Michael J. Pope. Actually, Michael is the friend in the Spotlight, which is the weekly letter I have. Let me show you here on my site. Let me bring it up. Let me share my screen. So this week, the friend in the Spotlight is Michael J. Pope. Go ahead and read the article. Hopefully, it's going to inspire you about his journey. And I also add a couple of points from the tremendous podcast we had this week. So, Friend in the Spotlight. If you are one of my 30,000+ first-degree connections and you want to be featured in the Friend in the Spotlight newsletter, which I do every Friday, just send me your bio and I'm going to make sure to feature and celebrate you.

All right.

So now let's go into what we're going to be talking about today. Today is going to be about the article I I wrote recently Influence or Manipulation: Leadership Lessons from the Navy and Silicon Valley. One thing about leadership principle is once you get really good at it, you can really influence people, right? Like Papa John says, leadership is influence, nothing more, nothing less. But when you are able to influence people, sometimes you kind of have to be very careful not to manipulate them, right? Because you can influence people positively, working for the goal of the organization and doing the right thing for the organization, for yourself, and for all of your team members. But you can also manipulate your folks in such a way that you are using them for your own benefit. There is really a very thin line between leadership, influence, and manipulation. So that's what this article is all about. One of the quotes I mentioned is by Darmanin, which says, "Trust takes years to build, but seconds to break and forever to repair." And then Dr. John C. Maxwell, who says, "Doing the right thing for the right reason helps us motivate, not manipulate others." So as a leader, as an ethical leader, as a servant leader, you really need to be serving people, adding value to them, influencing them for the right reason. So that's kind of what this article is going to get into. We are going to dive into this crucial leadership dilemma. And I'm gonna be drawing from lessons that I forged in the US Navy and also tested in the fires of Silicon Valley. And I'm gonna have my AI agent, I'm gonna have Mary and Drew AI take it for me. It's gonna be about 40 minutes or so. So I'm gonna be back. And in the meantime, if you have any question for me, please type it in the comment section and I'm gonna make sure to answer your question by the end of the podcast. And also, like I've said before, let me know where you are joining from, uh, what city, state, and if you are outside of the US, which country. And, uh, also tag your friend if this subject is going to be relevant to them, the difference between leadership, influence, and manipulation. All right, Joe and Mary, you guys got it now.

Good morning, welcome to the Deep Dive. I am your host Joe AI.

Good morning, I am your co-host Mary AI. Where are you tuning in from? Drop your city, region, or country in the comments. Got a leadership question for Coach BZ? Ask it below. He'll answer live during the show. As you listen to the podcast, type any leadership insight you've just learned or been reminded of that you'll apply this week in the comments so others can grow from your insight. And tag a colleague, junior officer, or tech leader who could benefit from this episode.

Today, we're diving headfirst into a leadership question that cuts right to the core of how organizations rise or fall. Why is it that some leaders inspire unwavering loyalty and peak performance, while others, despite having the same authority or title, leave behind confusion, disengagement, even quiet rebellion? What separates a leader who lifts people up from one who subtly tears them down? Where exactly does ethical leadership draw the line? To explore this, we're taking a deep dive into the insights of someone who has lived leadership under extreme conditions. Bob Fabien Zinga. He's a cybersecurity executive and a U.S. Navy information warfare commander, a leader who's not only served on the digital frontlines of national security but who also transitioned into the high-stakes, high-speed environment of Silicon Valley. This dual career—military rigor combined with tech agility—gives Bob a rare lens into what makes leaders either powerfully effective or quietly dangerous. His article, Lead: Influence or Manipulation? Leadership Lessons from the Navy and Silicon Valley, isn't just thought-provoking. It's a blueprint for ethical influence. So what's our mission today? It's simple: to illuminate the often blurry boundary between authentic influence and toxic manipulation. And maybe more importantly, to help you recognize when you're being influenced and when you might unknowingly be the one doing the manipulating. Because here's the truth: manipulation doesn't always wear a villain's mask. Sometimes it masquerades as confidence, strategy, or just getting things done. That's why understanding intent is everything. Bob makes that crystal clear. He starts with a deceptively simple concept: leadership is influence. On the surface, that feels like common sense. But pause for a moment. The real question isn't whether you influence others but what kind of influence you exert. And here's where it gets profound. Bob argues that the exact same action—a team restructuring, a strategic shift, even a public compliment—can either be a genuine act of leadership or a calculated tool of manipulation. The difference? It's all about intent. What's happening beneath the surface? When influence is used with integrity, it empowers. It builds loyalty, fosters development, inspires excellence. But when that same power is driven by ego, fear, or hidden agendas, it turns corrosive. It breeds distrust, disengagement, and sometimes, quiet resentment that poisons teams from the inside out. And here's what's striking: people can usually sense the difference. Intuitively. Viscerally. Take the Navy, where Bob spent over 2 decades leading teams in high-pressure environments. Sailors will follow a commanding officer into danger, not because of blind obedience, but because they trust that leader's values. They know the mission comes first, and their well-being matters. That trust isn't built overnight. It's earned through actions, humility, and consistency. Now shift to Silicon Valley. Bob has seen brilliant engineers push themselves to the limit, not because someone's breathing down their neck but because they feel seen, valued, and part of something meaningful. But the moment they sense they're being used to boost a manager's ego or pad a resume, that trust collapses. The hearts and minds campaign is over. Leadership psychologist Derek Lusk once warned, "Dysfunctional leadership can perpetuate the misery of thousands." And he's not being dramatic. The most toxic leaders don't just cause short-term chaos; they erode entire cultures. They win short-term compliance through fear but lose long-term commitment. Bob Fabien Zinga is clear: manipulation might get you this quarter's KPIs, But it will cost you your people. Those team members who seem productive under pressure, they're also polishing their resumes and planning their exit. The question isn't whether you'll influence others. It's whether your influence leaves them stronger or silently slipping away.

Now, we just heard how manipulation might get you quick results, but always at the cost of long-term trust. And that makes sense. But here's the more perplexing part. What about those leaders who seem to get away with manipulation for years? Why do teams tolerate them? Is it fear? Is it habit? Or are some leaders just that skilled at disguising toxicity? According to Bob Fabien Zinga, the answer lies deeper, in what psychologist Carl Jung famously called the shadow self. This concept refers to the unacknowledged, hidden parts of our identity, not just flaws or weaknesses but unconscious motivations that can quietly steer our behavior if we don't confront them. Zinga calls this the unseen uniform that every leader wears. It's made of unspoken fears, buried insecurities, and ego-driven desires. And unlike military ribbons or corporate titles, this uniform isn't visible to others or even to ourselves. But its impact? Profound. Here's where it gets tricky. The shadow doesn't announce itself. It disguises, it rationalizes. A leader gripped by insecurity might label their micromanagement as attention to detail. Or call their refusal to delegate leading from the front. But underneath it all, fear of losing control, fear of being seen as less than perfect. And let's be honest, we all have a shadow voice, that internal whisper urging you to take the easy way out, to shift blame, to protect your image, even at someone else's expense. Bob gives a few clear examples. A junior officer throws a peer under the bus to win favor with leadership. A manager hoards credit for a team win just to look good to the C-suite. In both cases, the root issue isn't strategy. It's ego unchecked, and that ego can quickly become corrosive. One quote Bob highlights really drives this home. It's from leadership communicator Andy Stanley. Leaders who don't listen will eventually be surrounded by people who have nothing to say. Think about that. When leaders stop listening, when they shut down dissent or brush aside feedback, they build an echo chamber. And in that vacuum, Creativity dies. Innovation dries up. People disengage. Why speak up when it's clear your voice doesn't matter? This is exactly what Bob warns against. The leader may feel powerful in that moment, but they're slowly draining the life out of the organization. That's the high cost of the shadow self left unexamined. And what drives it all? Often, it's the desperate need to appear strong, infallible, or always right. John C. Maxwell doesn't mince words. He calls this out plainly: the most toxic behavior in a leader is when they act without integrity just to appear powerful. When leaders fall into that trap, they start micromanaging, they twist facts, they withhold information. Why? To maintain the illusion of control. But the environment they create is anything but strong. It's brittle, unsafe, and people know it. So how do we fight back against that shadow? According to Zinga, the first step is what he calls honest self-awareness. And let's be clear, this isn't fluffy introspection. It's hard, sometimes painful work. It means hitting pause, often in moments of pressure, and asking the tough questions. Am I doing this for the mission or for my own ego? Am I making space for others to shine, or am I just afraid of being outshined? Am I reacting defensively because my authority feels threatened? Bob's point is simple. Great leadership starts with emotional maturity. The courage to admit you don't have all the answers. The humility to let others take the spotlight. And the wisdom to understand that leadership is about service, not validation. That's the line between authentic influence and manipulation disguised as strength.

So, having just explored the inner landscape of a leader's shadow self, it's time to shift our focus outward, to the environments that shape how that shadow is either confronted or allowed to grow unchecked. And there's perhaps no place more demanding, or more revealing, than military service. For Bob Fabien Zinga, the U.S. Navy wasn't just a career; it was a crucible. A place where leadership wasn't theoretical; it was a matter of mission success and, sometimes, life or death. In those high-stakes environments, ethical leadership couldn't be optional; it had to be lived. And from that lived experience emerged a powerful mantra, one that Bob embraced and modeled across decades of service: "Mission first. People always." At first glance, that might sound contradictory. Mission and people—can you really prioritize both? According to Bob Fabien Zinga, not only can you, but you must. The two are inseparable. You don't accomplish high-risk, complex missions by sacrificing your team. You accomplish them by empowering your team, earning their trust, and leading with honor. He shares vivid examples from deployments and commands where sailors gave 110%, not because they were ordered to, but because they trusted their commanding officer deeply. That trust wasn't given lightly. It was built day after day, decision after decision, in small, often unseen moments. Taking time to ask about a sailor's family. Stepping into the heat of a drill, not just observing from afar. Sharing critical information openly instead of hoarding it for leverage. These may seem like small gestures, but they're the currency of trust. And as General Colin Powell famously said, "Leadership is getting people to do more than the science of management says is possible." That quote lives at the heart of Bob's leadership philosophy. It also reveals a crucial distinction that every aspiring leader, military or civilian, must understand: rank and respect are not the same thing. Sure, in the Navy, rank comes with authority. Orders are followed. But respect? That has to be earned. The most effective leaders in uniform, those whom sailors would follow through fire, didn't just issue commands; they embodied them. They led with fairness, They led by example. They never asked their crew to endure something they weren't willing to endure themselves. Bob saw firsthand the difference this made. Teams led by respected leaders didn't just comply; they committed. And the reverse was true as well. Leaders who relied solely on their title, who demanded obedience but offered no real respect in return, they got the bare minimum. "just enough to stay out of trouble, no more." Why? Because true authority doesn't come from caller devices; it comes from character. Another critical lesson emerged during Bob's time in information warfare and cybersecurity operations, environments where decisions often had to be made in seconds, with massive consequences. In those moments, when a system crashed or a network was breached, the entire team instinctively looked to their commanding officer, not for answers necessarily, but for emotional cues. If the leader panicked, chaos spread like wildfire. But if the leader remained composed, owned the problem, and focused the team on solutions instead of blame, that steadiness had a calming, clarifying effect. It transformed fear into focused action. This practice of calm command presence, especially under pressure, was one of Bob Fabien Zinga's greatest strengths. And it was backed up by consistent, transparent leadership, owning mistakes, following through on promises, building a reservoir of trust before the crisis hits. Because as Bob often says, the toughest days don't create your leadership, they reveal it. These Navy-honed principles— lead with integrity, elevate your team, stay steady in the storm— were more than battlefield ethics. They became the very foundation of how Bob would lead far beyond the military. And that brings us to the next chapter of his leadership journey, where military rank fades and influence must be earned all over again.

After decades in the Navy, where authority is worn on your collar and leadership is backed by institutional tradition, Bob Fabien Zinga stepped into a very different battlefield: Silicon Valley. And what a contrast it was. Gone were the crisp uniforms, the chain of command, the automatic deference to rank. In this new environment, startup t-shirts replaced service dress blues, and influence couldn't be assumed; it had to be earned. Quickly, quietly, consistently. Bob has described that transition as one of the most humbling and eye-opening experiences of his professional life. Because while leadership principles still applied, the context had changed dramatically. In the Navy, orders were followed because of structure. But in tech, no one salutes a job title. Engineers, product managers, and designers follow those who bring value. Those who show up with credibility, empathy, and collaborative energy. Bob learned this the hard way. In one of his earliest corporate roles at Pivotal Software, he came in as the new security leader with deep expertise and a strong resume. But he quickly realized something sobering. No one was reading his emails. Not because they were disrespectful. People were just overwhelmed, busy, and unsure whether he truly understood their world. See, in tech, respect doesn't come from your past. It comes from your present contribution. So instead of retreating or doubling down on authority, Bob adapted. He began building relationships slowly, deliberately. He walked the engineering floors. He asked questions. He listened. He offered security guidance not as mandates, but as solutions aligned with product goals. He stopped saying, "You have to do this," and started saying, "Here's how this helps you ship faster, safer, and smarter." And over time, the walls came down. The ignored emails became welcomed meetings. Skepticism turned into trust. Why? Because people saw that he wasn't there to control them. He was there to support them. This was Bob's first real taste of what it means to lead by influence in a flat, matrixed organization, one where authority is decentralized and relationships are your most powerful currency. In fact, he often shares that it took 9 interviews to land that first Silicon Valley role. Two more than average. Not because they doubted his technical skills, but because they were assessing something deeper—his cultural agility, his emotional intelligence, his ability to lead without pulling rank. That's a lesson many transitioning leaders need to hear. In high-performing tech environments, influence is never about compliance. It's about connection. You don't get buy-in by citing policy; you earn it by aligning your message with business outcomes. You speak their language, not yours. Bob also discovered something that might surprise many: vulnerability builds credibility. Coming from the military, where mistakes can be catastrophic and uncertainty is rarely welcomed, this was a shift. But in tech, admitting "I don't know" and inviting your team to figure it out together creates psychological safety. It opens the door for innovation. And that humility doesn't make you less of a leader; it makes you real. It proves you're not there to be the smartest person in the room but to help build the smartest room possible. So whether it's a cybersecurity team shipping secure code or a product squad racing to launch an MVP, the same leadership truth applies. Influence isn't about who talks the most. It's about who listens best, adapts fastest, and lifts others highest. And for Bob Fabien Zinga, the lessons he learned in uniform didn't vanish in Silicon Valley. They evolved. They reshaped into tools of servant leadership in a new, fast-moving, innovation-hungry landscape. Coming up next, we'll explore the 3 foundational traits that carried him through both worlds, traits every aspiring leader must develop if they hope to inspire trust, commitment, and results.

As you chart your own course as a leader, whether you're coming up through the ranks of the military or climbing the ladders of Silicon Valley, There are 3 qualities that will keep you grounded, focused, and trusted. Bob Fabien Zinga calls them leadership guardrails—not just traits to aspire to, but non-negotiables for ethical influence. They are: self-awareness, humility, empathy. Now, these aren't buzzwords to slap onto a motivational poster. According to Bob, they're foundational to leadership that actually works, and, more importantly, leadership that lasts. Let's unpack them. First, self-awareness. This is where everything begins. It's about regularly checking in with yourself and asking the hard, often uncomfortable questions. Why do I want to lead? Am I truly showing up for my team or for my image? Bob challenges leaders to go beyond surface-level reflection He invites them to recognize their triggers, those moments that spark defensiveness, impatience, or the urge to control. Maybe it's a dissenting opinion. Maybe it's uncertainty in a high-stakes meeting. Whatever it is, self-aware leaders don't let those moments define them. Instead, they pause, they examine their motives, and most of all, they welcome feedback not as a threat but as a gift. Bob puts it simply: Great leaders don't just tolerate tough feedback; they seek it out. Because they know they're always a work in progress. Second, humility. Now, let's be clear: Humility is not weakness. It's not about minimizing your value or doubting your competence. In fact, Bob argues that humility is the strongest antidote to ego-driven leadership. A humble leader recognizes the inherent worth of everyone on the team. They understand that their success is woven into the success of others, and because of that, they're quick to give credit when things go right and just as quick to take responsibility when things go wrong. Bob shares this from his own experience. When a leader admits their mistake, owns it publicly, and shows they're human, it builds fierce loyalty. People don't expect perfection. They expect authenticity. They'll run through walls for a leader who's got their back and doesn't need to be the smartest or loudest voice in the room. Third, empathy and emotional intelligence. Here's the truth: leadership is a deeply human experience, and emotions are always in play whether we like it or not. Empathy means tuning in, seeing through someone else's eyes. It's about understanding the why behind a teammate's resistance or frustration. Bob gives a powerful example. Imagine a software engineer who seems resistant to a new security policy. A less empathetic leader might dismiss that pushback as laziness or obstinance. But an empathetic one? They dig deeper. They realize that the engineer's concern is about missing a product launch, disappointing users, or compromising their work. That's empathy in action. And when leaders lead this way, they don't just resolve conflicts; they prevent them. But empathy also means managing your own emotions. Showing grace under pressure, staying calm when the heat is on, because your emotional presence as a leader sets the tone for everyone around you. One of the most personal stories Bob shares in his writing is about his life partner, Demetria Elzinga. He calls her his mirror and anchor, someone who day after day helps him stay grounded. She reminds him lovingly and consistently to check the rank at the door, No matter how many titles he's held, how many missions he's led, or how many boardrooms he's entered, Demetria brings him back to who he is at the core: a servant leader, a husband, a human being. And honestly, we all need someone like that, someone to keep us honest, humble, and real. So ask yourself, who keeps you grounded? Where do you get your feedback? And which of these three traits—self-awareness, humility, or empathy— Do you need to lean into more right now? Because as Bob Fabien Zinga reminds us, it's not the size of your title, but the shape of your character that defines your legacy.

So after all we've unpacked about manipulation, authentic influence, character, and emotional intelligence, you might be wondering, how do you take these leadership ideals and actually live them out every single day? Fortunately, Bob Fabien Zinga doesn't leave us guessing. In his leadership work, Bob emphasizes actionable steps. Simple, consistent habits that build ethical influence over time. Not grand gestures, but small daily commitments that shape culture, deepen trust, and refine character. Let's walk through the 5 habits he recommends for any leader serious about leading with integrity. Habit number 1, actively invite honest feedback. Not just the polite kind, not the surface-level responses in performance reviews. Bob urges leaders to regularly ask their teams one simple, direct question. What's one thing I could do better as a leader? And here's the catch: you have to mean it. That means listening without defensiveness and following through. If you ask but never adapt, you're not inviting feedback. You're performing it. Real trust is built when people know their voice leads to action. Habit number 2, practice active listening. This sounds obvious, but it's shockingly rare. In your next meeting, try speaking a little less, tune in more. Don't just wait for your turn to talk. Truly listen. Ask clarifying questions. Reflect what you've heard. This simple discipline signals respect, and it creates space for breakthrough ideas from voices that might otherwise go unheard. Habit number 3: Check your motives before making major decisions. This is a moment for quiet self-reflection. Bob recommends pausing and asking, "Am I doing this for the team and the mission, or is this move somehow feeding my own ego or image?" It's a deceptively hard question, but it's one that separates true servant leaders from those who manipulate under the mask of strategy. Intent matters, and the people around you will always feel it. Habit number 4, own your mistakes, share your wins. This one's a credibility builder. When you mess up, and we all do, admit it publicly if necessary. That kind of vulnerability doesn't diminish your authority. It amplifies your humanity. And when the wins come, put your team in the spotlight. Let others shine. Bob's seen time and again that the leaders who deflect credit and absorb blame are the ones who earn enduring loyalty. Habit number 5, find an accountability partner. Leadership can be isolating. That's why Bob advises finding someone inside or outside your organization who has permission to challenge you, someone who will gently but firmly say, hey, you're drifting off course. This isn't about judgment, it's about alignment. Ego grows unchecked in silence. Accountability is the guardrail that brings us back to center. Now, to go even deeper, Bob shares a few reflection questions he calls leadership mirrors. These are meant to provoke clarity, not just once a year during a performance review, but often. Why do I really want to lead? Is this about service or is it about significance? Would I want to work for someone like me? Really, put yourself in your team's shoes. Would you feel seen, safe, and inspired? How do I respond to criticism or bad news? Do you listen and learn, or do you defend, deflect, or shut down? Am I building an environment of trust or fear? Because culture isn't declared, it's demonstrated. Bob believes the answers to these questions aren't always comfortable, but they're always revealing. Ultimately, your influence as a leader is not defined by a speech, a slogan, or a single act. It's defined by your daily behavior. The micro-decisions, the tone in meetings, the openness to challenge, the way you treat people when no one's watching— that's where leadership lives, and that's where legacy is built.

What's truly striking about Bob Fabien Zinga's approach to leadership is not just how grounded it is in real-world experience, —from the Navy's chain of command to the flat teams of Silicon Valley—but how it's also informed by timeless wisdom. In his article, Bob draws on scripture—yes, ancient texts written thousands of years ago—and reveals just how relevant they remain for leaders navigating today's chaotic and complex world. This isn't about preaching; it's about principles—unchanging truths that have guided great leaders across generations. What's powerful here is how seamlessly these insights complement everything we've explored so far—integrity, empathy, influence, character. Let's walk through each of these ancient verses Bob highlights and unpack what they mean for today's leader, military or tech, startup or enterprise. Ecclesiastes 10:16 : Woe to you, O land, when your king is a child and your princes feast in the morning! Leadership Insight: Immaturity in leadership brings instability and poor governance. A leader focused on indulgence rather than responsibility will fail their people. Emotional and spiritual maturity is a non-negotiable trait of trustworthy leaders. Coaching. Prompt: Are there areas in your leadership where you're reacting rather than responding with maturity? What disciplines can you build today to mature in decision-making and self-control? In today's terms, Bob compares this to a CEO more focused on personal brand building than company health, or a commanding officer chasing recognition instead of readiness. Leadership isn't about image; it's about disciplined service. Isaiah 3:12 : Youths oppress my people, women rule over them; my people, your guides lead you astray. They turn you from the path. Leadership Insight: Leadership is not about who holds the title; it's about whether you're leading others in the right direction. Even well-intentioned leaders can misguide people if they're not grounded in truth, vision, and values. Coaching Prompt: Are you clear on your moral compass and long-term mission? When was the last time you evaluated whether your leadership is leading people closer to truth, or turning them off course. Bob cautions that without a guiding vision and a values-based approach, even charismatic leaders can become dangerous. It's not about who's in charge; it's about where you're taking your people. Proverbs 29:12, NLT: If a ruler pays attention to liars, all his advisers will be wicked. Leadership Insight: Leaders who embrace flattery or dishonesty corrupt the culture around them. What you tolerate or reward sets the standard. When leaders ignore truth, they build echo chambers that collapse in crisis. Coaching. Prompt: Do you reward truth-tellers or people who say what you want to hear? What systems do you have in place to ensure you receive honest, even uncomfortable feedback? In Bob's experience, particularly in tech, a leader's willingness to hear the hard truths determines whether innovation thrives or withers. Culture is shaped by the courage to confront what's real.

Ezekiel 34:10 : This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. Leadership. Insight: God holds leaders accountable for the people entrusted to them. Bad leaders who exploit, neglect, or fail their teams for selfish gain are subject to both moral and spiritual consequences. Coaching prompt. Are you treating your team as a burden or a responsibility? In what ways are you prioritizing their growth, well-being, and mission success? How would you lead differently if you knew you'd be held accountable for their outcomes? Bob sees this as a direct challenge to servant leadership. Teams aren't resources; they're responsibilities. Leaders are stewards, not owners. Matthew 23:4 . They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. Leadership Insight: This is a classic case of hypocritical leadership—setting standards for others without living them out yourself. This erodes credibility and trust and ultimately destroys team morale. Coaching. Prompt: Do your actions match your expectations of your team? Are you willing to get in the trenches when things get tough, or are you watching from the sidelines? Bob refers to this kind of hypocrisy as one of leadership's most corrosive traits. Credibility isn't claimed; it's demonstrated through alignment between words and actions . Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture, declares the Lord. Leadership Insight: Destructive leaders divide and demoralize. Scattering the flock can mean sowing confusion, fear, or even favoritism that breaks unity. God condemns leadership that isolates or alienates those they're meant to guide. Coaching Prompt: Are your leadership habits building unity or breeding division? Have your recent decisions brought people together under a clear mission or pushed some to the margins? For Bob Fabien Zinga, this verse echoes in boardrooms and battlefields alike. Great leaders unify. Destructive ones divide, often unintentionally. But intention doesn't erase impact. Taken together, these verses form more than a caution; they form a code. They remind us that true leadership transcends industries, cultures, and even centuries. It's about stewardship, humility, alignment, and above all, service. Bob ends his article with a charge to every leader, new or seasoned: Examine your shadow self. Not once, not as a box to check, but as a lifelong journey. And he pairs that call with one of his favorite quotes from Steven Pressfield's Gates of Fire: A king does not require service of those he leads, but provides it to them. A king does not expend his substance to enslave men, but by his conduct and example makes them free. That's the vision Bob offers. Whether you're leading troops at sea, architects of code, or a team in any sector of society, your influence is your legacy. And every single day you have a choice. Choice. Will you use that influence to elevate others, to guide with clarity and integrity, or will you allow ego, fear, or unchecked ambition to lead you off course? The challenge Bob leaves us with is simple but sobering. What choice will you make today, and how will you ensure your leadership force remains steady, humble, and true?

Let's end the podcast with the frequently asked questions, FAQs. Question number 1 from a LinkedIn user: What is the fundamental definition of leadership and how does it relate to influence? The article emphasizes that "leadership is influence," as taught by Dr. John C. Maxwell, meaning it is "nothing more, nothing less." This core definition highlights that effective leadership hinges on the ability to shape the morale and performance of a team through one's words and actions. It's about inspiring others to follow voluntarily and contribute beyond the bare minimum rather than compelling them through formal authority alone.

Question number 2 from a YouTube user. What is the critical distinction between influence and manipulation in leadership? The key difference between influence and manipulation lies in intent and integrity. Influence used honorably inspires excellence, loyalty, and growth. Aiming for the team's benefit and mission success. Manipulation, however, is an abuse of power, breeding fear and distrust by pushing a leader's own agenda for personal gain, often at any cost. While manipulation might achieve short-term compliance through coercion, it ultimately backfires, leading to low morale, disengagement, and a lack of sustained success. True influence earns trust and respect, fostering genuine commitment.

Question number 3 from another LinkedIn user: What is the shadow self in leadership, and how can it undermine a leader? The shadow self refers to the hidden or ignored parts of a leader's inner self, including motives, fears, and ego. If unchecked, this shadow can manifest as a hunger for control, a need to appear infallible, or an underlying insecurity, ultimately derailing even promising leaders. Common pitfalls include unchecked ego, which can lead to taking credit for others' work, refusing to admit mistakes, and failing to listen to others, thereby stifling innovation and disengaging the team. Another pitfall is the craving for power and control, leading to micromanagement, manipulation of information, and a corrosive environment where people feel used and devalued.

Question number 4 from an Instagram user: What are some key leadership lessons learned from the US Navy environment? Lessons from the Navy emphasize leading with integrity under pressure. Key takeaways include: Mission first, people always. Accomplishing the mission and taking care of the team are inseparable goals. With trust earned through actions like showing care for individuals and openly sharing information. Rank and respect are different. While rank grants authority, true respect must be earned through leading by example, fairness, and a willingness to do what one asks of others. Calm in the Storm: Maintaining composure and integrity during crises is crucial, as a leader's reaction directly impacts team morale and effectiveness. Owning Mistakes: Transparency and keeping one's word build goodwill. These lessons collectively highlight the importance of selflessness and placing the team's well-being above personal gain.

Question number 5 from a Twitch user: How do leadership principles from Silicon Valley differ from or complement, those from the Navy. While the contexts differ, Silicon Valley leadership complements Navy principles by emphasizing influence over formal authority. Key lessons from tech include: Trust is earned, not given. Technical experts don't automatically defer to titles. Credibility and goodwill are built through relationships, listening, and demonstrating care for team success. Influence: Without formal authority. In matrixed or client-driven organizations, persuasion skills are paramount, requiring leaders to align goals and sell a vision rather than issue directives. Embrace agility and learning. The fast-paced tech world requires leaders to foster a culture where new ideas are welcomed, failures are treated as lessons, and humility accelerates innovation by encouraging boldness and problem-solving. Both environments underscore that sustained success comes from leaders who prioritize listening, learning, and lifting others up.

Question number 6 from LinkedIn: What 3 crucial traits help leaders use influence ethically and avoid the shadow self? 3 crucial traits act as guardrails for ethical influence and combating the shadow self. Self-awareness: understanding one's own motivations, triggers, biases, and stress reactions to keep ego in check. This involves regularly asking why one wants to lead and how one is showing up and welcoming feedback. Humility: recognizing the worth of others, crediting the team for successes, accepting responsibility for failures, and admitting when one doesn't know something or has made a mistake. This builds loyalty and a safe space for contributions. Empathy and emotional intelligence: connecting with the team's perspective, understanding their hopes, frustrations, and fears, and managing one's own emotions. Leading with empathy builds trust and shows genuinely helpful intentions.

Let us unpack that. How does self-awareness benefit leaders? Self-awareness is presented in the sources as a foundational trait and crucial guardrail for leaders, particularly in the context of wielding influence ethically and avoiding manipulation. It is vital for understanding one's own motivations, behaviors, and potential pitfalls, which directly impacts how influence is exercised. Here's how self-awareness benefits leaders. Guards against the shadow self and manipulation. Self-awareness is the first step to confronting a leader's shadow self, the hidden motives, fears, and ego that can derail even promising leaders. By shining a light on one's own flaws and impulses, leaders can prevent their ego and emotions from being projected onto their team. It helps leaders avoid the traps of the shadow self, such as the hunger for control, the need to appear infallible, or the fear of inadequacy. With self-awareness, leaders can stay on the "right side" of the thin line between influence and manipulation, ensuring their actions are for the team's benefit and the mission's success, rather than personal gain. Facilitates ethical decision-making and intent. It prompts leaders to regularly ask themselves why they want to lead and how they are showing up. Self-aware leaders can pause and ask hard questions before making decisions, such as, am I making this decision to help the mission or just to make myself look good? Or am I reacting defensively because my idea was challenged? This internal check helps ensure that decisions align with core values and the team's well-being. Rather than being driven by ego or image. The difference between true influence and manipulation often boils down to intent and integrity, which self-awareness helps cultivate. Enables ego management and emotional regulation: By identifying personal triggers—situations that make one defensive, impatient, or controlling—leaders can keep their ego in check before it hijacks their behavior. It allows leaders to regulate their own ego and emotions, preventing them from negatively impacting the team. This leads to emotional maturity, a non-negotiable trait for trustworthy leaders, which is crucial for responding maturely rather than just reacting. Fosters continuous growth and credibility. Self-aware leaders welcome feedback, even difficult feedback, because they recognize there is always room to grow. This is essential for preventing the "echo chamber" effect where leaders stop listening and innovation dies. It involves embracing the discomfort of honest self-examination, which is "far better than the destructive comfort of self-deception." Awareness is noted as the first step to improvement in any area where the shadow might be lurking. Acknowledging blind spots and being willing to learn from feedback, even if it stings at first, contributes to a leader's growth. In summary, self-awareness empowers leaders to lead boldly in the light, ensuring their influence inspires excellence and builds trust, rather than resorting to manipulation born from unchecked ego or fear. It allows leaders to consistently steady their helm and sail true.

How does humility help leaders? Humility plays a critical role in effective leadership, serving as a powerful antidote to ego and fostering a more productive, trusting, and innovative environment. Here's how humility benefits leaders according to the sources. Counteracts ego and the shadow self. Humility is directly presented as the antidote to ego. It helps leaders to regulate their own ego and emotions, preventing them from negatively impacting the team. By embracing humility, leaders can avoid the traps of unchecked ego, such as believing they have all the answers, refusing to admit mistakes, or publicly discrediting peers. Builds trust and loyalty. A humble leader is quick to credit the team for successes and to accept responsibility for failures. This willingness to admit when they don't know something or when they've made a mistake builds fierce loyalty among team members. People naturally want to work harder for a leader who lets them shine. Fosters a safe and collaborative environment. By modeling humility, leaders create a safe space for others to contribute ideas and point out problems without fear. This helps to prevent the emperor has no clothes syndrome where teams are afraid to offer honest feedback. Accelerates innovation and learning. In environments like Silicon Valley, admitting I don't know, but let's figure it out actually built credibility with brilliant engineers because it showed that the leader's ego wasn't tied to being the smartest in the room. This fosters a culture where new ideas are welcomed and failures are treated as lessons, not liabilities. The article explicitly states that humility accelerates innovation because when a leader is willing to learn and adapt, their team becomes bolder and more innovative in solving problems. Enables emotional maturity. The difference between a great leader and a dysfunctional one often comes down to humility and emotional maturity. Humility allows leaders to have the confidence to admit they don't know everything and to let others shine. This contributes to more mature responses rather than mere reactions in challenging situations. Enhances credibility and goodwill. In the fast-paced tech world, where formal authority might not be enough, leaders thrive by combining a strong vision with personal humility. People rally behind a leader who genuinely listens, learns, and lifts others up. In essence, humility is a foundational trait, alongside self-awareness and empathy, that acts as a crucial guardrail to ensure leaders use their influence ethically and avoid manipulation. It allows leaders to lead by example, admitting their humanity and thereby empowering their teams to achieve more. How do empathy and emotional intelligence help leaders? Empathy and emotional intelligence are presented in the sources as crucial guardrails that help leaders use influence ethically and avoid the traps of the shadow self. These traits are foundational for fostering a positive, trusting, and effective leadership environment. Here's how empathy and emotional intelligence benefit leaders. Fosters connection and understanding. Cultivating empathy allows leaders to connect with their team's perspective. It enables leaders to understand the hopes, frustrations, and fears of the individuals they lead. For example, if a software engineer seems resistant to a new security policy, empathy might reveal their worry about slowing down down a product launch or overwhelming their small team. This insight allows the leader to address the real concern, e.g., by adjusting timelines or providing extra support, instead of just enforcing compliance. Enables effective emotional management. Emotional intelligence involves managing your own emotions. This means staying calm under pressure and showing grace under fire. This is particularly vital in crisis moments. As seen in Navy Command, if a leader stays calm, owns the problem, and focuses on solutions, It inspires everyone to step up, preventing chaos from rippling through the ranks. Emotional maturity, which is a component of emotional intelligence, is considered a non-negotiable trait of trustworthy leaders. It helps leaders to regulate their own ego and emotions, allowing them to respond maturely rather than just reacting. Builds trust and demonstrates positive intent. When leaders lead with empathy, They build trust within their team. It clearly shows the team that the leader's intentions are to help, not harm. This aligns with the idea that influence earned through trust and respect fuels sustainable success, while manipulation, even if it gets a quick win, always backfires in the long run because people can sense when they are being used. Enhances adaptability and credibility in diverse environments. In environments like Silicon Valley, where formal authority might be less prominent, Emotional intelligence is crucial for successful adaptation from a structured, top-down culture to a flat, collaborative, and feedback-driven environment. Leaders use emotional intelligence to lead by selling the vision and setting the example rather than just issuing directives. In essence, empathy and emotional intelligence provide leaders with the capacity to understand and manage both their own emotions and those of their team members, leading to stronger relationships, greater trust, and a more productive and supportive work environment. Developing these qualities is not a one-time achievement but a continuous journey that requires honest self-examination and openness to feedback.

Question number 7 from LinkedIn: What practical tips are provided for aspiring leaders to lead with integrity and self-awareness? The article offers several actionable steps for aspiring leaders. 1. Invite honest feedback: Regularly ask for constructive criticism and act on it. 2. Practice active listening: Talk less, listen more, and ask questions to ensure valuable input isn't missed. 3. Check your motivation: Before major decisions, reflect on whether the intent is for the right reasons—team well-being, mission—or personal gain or ego. 4. Own your mistakes, share your wins: Publicly acknowledge personal errors and shine the spotlight on the team's successes to build trust and accountability. 5. Find an accountability partner. Have someone with permission to call you out on ego or hypocrisy, serving as a safety harness for humility.

Finally, question number 8 from Twitch: What are the key self-reflection questions leaders should regularly ask themselves? Leaders should engage in continuous self-reflection to foster growth and awareness. Key questions include: Why do I really want to lead—to serve or to satisfy ego? Would I want to work for someone like me? Considering how one's team feels valued, heard, and motivated. How do I handle criticism or bad news? Do I learn and adjust or get defensive and blame? Am I building an environment of trust or fear? Do actions encourage speaking up or silence? These questions help leaders identify areas where their shadow might be lurking, and serve as a guide for continuous improvement. So as we wrap up today's episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast with Coach BZ, we invite you to reflect. What spoke to you today? Which leadership insight will you carry into tomorrow? What are your 3 takeaways from this episode? What's one leadership insight you've just learned or been reminded of that you'll apply this week? Type it in the comments so others can grow from your insight. And tag a colleague, junior officer, or tech leader who could benefit from this episode. Join us again tomorrow, right here, for the next episode in this powerful leadership series. Until then, keep growing, keep leading, and as always, this is Mary AI. Stay resilient.

This is Joe AI. Goodbye for now.

All right, many thanks, Mary and Joe AI. Let me see if there are any other questions. I don't see anything on LinkedIn. Let me check on YouTube. I don't see anything there. I do want to acknowledge there was another user from Twitch. He didn't ask a question, but he said hi, and he goes by the nomaker Alukwini. So Alukwini, thank you for letting us know that you are there and listening. So again, I believe this is one of the most impactful articles I've written, Influence or Manipulation. Leadership Lessons from the Navy and Silicon Valley, because I do believe that there is a thin line, you know, between influence and manipulation. It is so easy sometimes as a leader to manipulate others for your own benefit. So as a servant leader, you should always, always value people Have great values yourself, your core value, and stand by them. And then add value to people and members of your organization. And I believe it's through service that you become great. All right, I don't have any other question. I'm going to be back here tomorrow, and tomorrow is going to be Saturday, I believe. We're going to have a 10-minute AI recap for one of the teasers I showed you, the great podcast episode I had. I believe that was Episode 37 with Dr. P.W. Singer. We're gonna have my AI agent give you a 10-minute recap of that 1-hour episode. So see you tomorrow morning, Saturday, right here on LinkedIn Leadership and Success Podcast with me, your host, Coach BZ. Thanks so much.

Bye. Thank you for listening to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If you like what you heard, please subscribe to our channels and come back for more wisdom nuggets on how you may develop into a better leader and achieve greater levels of success. Leadership is the most critical skill. The world will always need leaders to lead others, deploy the next disruptive technology, or execute a business strategy. You may as well decide on counting yourself among the 21st century leaders. See you right here next time on the Leadership and Success Podcast with Coach BZ.