S4:E77 🎙️LIVE with Dr. Darryl Stickel, PhD (Multi Tracks Audio)

Hi, I'm John Maxwell. When the top companies in the world are looking for trainers, speakers, and coaches, there's one name that stands above the rest, and that's Maxwell Leadership. Our certified team members have gotten proven results for companies all over the globe, and our reputation, I'm proud to say, is second to none. Some of our members have risen to the top of their profession, including the one you're going to meet today. I proudly introduce you to my friend, Bob Fabien Zinga.

Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If you need to develop into a better leader, this podcast is for you. If you want to achieve a greater level of success, this podcast is for you. His mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell, said it best: everything rises and falls on leadership. We hope to inspire you today and provide you with an insight that has the potential to positively impact the trajectory of your life. Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast.

Please, ladies and gentlemen, help me welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast, Dr. Dale Stickle. Welcome. Dr. Sikol, how are you doing today?

I'm doing well, better now that I'm here with you.

Fantastic. Uh, what is one thing that you are grateful for today, sir?

There's actually two, and it's my sons. My sons mean everything to me, and I'm blessed to have seen them grow and develop into two fine young men.

That is so wonderful. I have two daughters myself. Yes, there is nothing more important in life than their own future and what they mean to us. And, uh, what if, what is one thing about you that most people may not know about?

Hmm. I'm kind of an open book. Um, I have a son who just joined the Navy. I'm legally blind. Um, but most folks tend to know that.

Wow.

Thank you.

Thank you so, so much for sharing. I appreciate that. Can you tell us kind of about your leadership journey?

Yeah, I was born and raised in a small town in Northern British Columbia, Canada. Uh, isolated, harsh winters. And I grew up believing that if you could help people, you should. And because we were so isolated, we had this tendency to pull together. You know, people realized that you had to rely on your neighbors. And so I grew up, uh, in a community where you looked out for each other. And then when I was 17, I was playing junior hockey and I got attacked by a family of crows. And he shattered my helmet, knocked me unconscious. Apparently I stopped breathing 3 times on the way to the hospital. And I knew that I was losing my sight. So my plan had been to train my brain to think for a living. And now all of a sudden I couldn't think at all. And so I had this prolonged sense of despair and loss of hope. And it provoked a sense of empathy in me that's uncommon. And so eventually I went to university. Um, I was studying in Victoria. And Bob Fabien Zinga, I'd be sitting on the bus. And a complete stranger would sit next to me and say, I'm really having a hard time. And so I started to think about what is it that allows people to open up to me? And I started down the path towards becoming a clinical psychologist. So I worked with families in crisis, troubled teens, worked on crisis lines. And was trying to hone those skills. And then I reached a point where I realized that a lot of these folks had taken a long time to get to the place that they were. It was going to take them a long time to get out of it, if they ever did. And I thought that would drive me crazy. And so I shifted, went into public administration, did a master's degree. And I was working in native land claims in British Columbia, and they would ask me these deep philosophical questions like, what is self-government? What will the province look like 50 years after claims are settled? The last question they asked was, how do we convince the people we've shafted for over 100 years that they should trust us?

Hmm.

And Bob, I thought that was a really good question. And so I went to do, went to business school, wrote my doctoral thesis on building trust in hostile environments. And then, wow, you know, I had two of the world's leading experts on trust on their committee. And they sat me down afterwards and they said, you know, when it first came to us, we thought too big, too complicated. He never solves it. We'll give him 6 months and he'll come crawling back to us. 6 months in, you were so far beyond us, we couldn't help anymore. All we could do was sit and watch. And here we are years later, we think you've solved it. And so I left there and joined McKinsey and got a chance to apply the concepts that I've been theorizing about.

Uh-huh.

And McKinsey said to me, you've got really great clients. We're going to send you to the worst places possible. And so I would find myself in places where hostile takeovers were taking over, or there were labor disputes, or people were just having a hard time getting along. And I learned. And then 2001, I was involved in a car accident, ended up with another concussion, and just couldn't work those hours anymore. And so I started my own little company called Trust Unlimited, and I started helping people better understand trust. And I helped the Canadian military try to figure out how to build trust with the locals in Afghanistan. I'll help private sector companies, finance, construction, mining, nonprofits, public sector, and all over the globe. I taught for a while at Luxembourg. Um, and this whole time I'm just continuing to learn how to apply this and teach people and how to help them better understand.

Wow, that is very powerful. Your story is very, very touching, really a story of resilience. And actually, when you talk about trust as a cybersecurity executive, I think that's really one of the main things we do is to make sure that other organizations trust whatever organization we work for, that we care about their data, their privacy, their security, really everything. And we do in the tech world really is based on that trust because nobody's gonna buy from you, nobody's going to partner with you if they do not trust you. So trust is so important. Now you have been called a trust savant and with a PhD work you did at Duke University on building trust in hostile environment, which I guess would relate in the military too. We go to a lot of hostile environment sometimes. How has that shaped your life mission?

So through all the trials and tribulations, I felt that God had a purpose for me, that he was forging me. And when I show my work to academics who are studying Christ, they say, no one else talks like And when I talk to real people about it, they say, of course, this is how it works. How, how did you get a PhD? This is just common sense. So my life has been devoted to trying to get the signal through the noise, trying to help people better understand and create a better world. Mm-hmm. And so I feel like I had a sense of duty. Purpose, that there's something I'm meant to do.

Wow. That is powerful. That is very, very powerful. So you've worked at McKinsey, like we mentioned during the, uh, introduction. You've coached executives worldwide and you founded Trust Unlimited. Can you share a pivotal story where you saw trust or the lack of it? And, uh, change the course of an organization?

Yeah, there's been a few of those. Um, I was hired by a company in Luxembourg to help train their senior executives and it was going well. And then they asked me to spend some time with their senior board of directors. And I said, sure, I'd be happy to spend the day with them. The day before, they sat me down and said, oh, by the way, the two unions are going to be there as well. I said, well, that'll be different. And they said, yeah, so you know, we've been in court for the last 5 years and everybody hates everybody. And I said, wow, you're so strong. And so I'm standing in front of these folks who've had a long history of dispute, and I have to convince them that they need to get along. And we spent the day walking through the model, and at the end, they all stood up. Shook hands with each other, shook hands with me, said it's the first time we've had hope in 5 years.

Wow.

And 6 months later, they signed a new collective bargaining agreement that they're all pretty happy with.

Wow. That is pretty amazing.

Wow.

So talking about trust then, uh, what do you think separates leaders who are merely acceptable and those who are exceptional? When it comes to building trust?

So I think a lot of times leaders feel like they can't make mistakes, that they have to be perfect, which leads to them micromanaging because that means that no one else can make mistakes either. And it crushes any sense of innovation or adaptation. And so Leaders need to be able to step forward and acknowledge that they're not perfect. Yes. And part of that, you know, when I talk to leaders, I'll say to them, are you the same leader you were 5 years ago? And they'll say, God, no, I've learned and grown and developed. And I say to them, do you think you'll be the same leader 5 years from now? And the response is always, I hope not. So that means you're going to step away from the things that got you where you are and into the things that are going to make you great. Yes. But you're going to learn new skills. And so what you should be saying to your people is, I'm going to grow, evolve, and develop. I'm going to get better. Along the way, I will stumble. I may fall. My expectation is that you'll be there with me, helping me back up, dusting me off, and helping me learn from those experiences, because that's exactly what I'm going to be doing for you. Hmm.

So in that case then, uh, How can a leader recover from a breach of trust? What would you recommend? To err is human. Nobody is perfect, but I guess when I was a junior officer, one of my best mentors, a commanding officer at the time, said, you know, while you are a junior officer, this is the time for you to make all kinds of mistakes because everybody knows you are super green. You don't know anything yet. However, the more senior you become in the Navy, especially as you get more qualifications and you get more responsibility, then people have very, very high expectations. Of you. So especially in this podcast, again, I'm really focusing on aspiring leaders in the military and in tech. What would your advice be if someone breaches trust and how would they recover?

So trust is the willingness to be vulnerable when you can't completely predict how someone else is going to behave. Without some level of vulnerability, trust is irrelevant. And so if we fail, that means we've let someone down. We've caused them pain because they were vulnerable to us. If we want to recover, we need to acknowledge that pain, apologize.

Mm-hmm.

For the event, even if it wasn't our fault. And then we need to make a credible commitment that we're going to do our best to have that not happen again and take steps to show them that we're serious about that.

Hmm.

That is quite insightful. And like you mentioned, your son just joined the Navy. Uh, what would you advise naval junior officers? Preparing for command, uh, on building trust quickly, especially in high-pressure, high-stakes environment?

So building trust is a matter of understanding where does uncertainty come from? Where does vulnerability come from? How do I take steps to manage it? And so I've been taking steps to reduce uncertainty. And we do that by clarifying roles, getting feedback around what excellence looks like. You know, Bob, we all have the ability to build trust. Some are just better than others. Those who aren't very good have a lever that they pull, and often it's the ability lever. You should trust me because I'm the captain. Or because I'm Lieutenant.

Nice.

Um, I have X number of years of experience. I have these credentials. That's the ability lever. Over and over. Those who are better at building trust have multiple levers, and those who are really good have multiple levers and they know when to pull which one. And so if I want to build trust quickly, I go first. So I make myself a little bit vulnerable and then I seek way in Geshe-la's benevolence, which is one of the other levers, right? Benevolence is having someone's best interest at heart, having their backs.

Yes.

And so I acknowledge if I'm a young officer, look, I'm still learning just like you are. I'm gonna make the best decisions possible and I aspire to be a great leader, but I'm a work in progress. Wow.

That is, that is quite, uh, insightful. So keeping that, that thought, and I like the idea of having several levers, what about for The other half of my audience are Silicon Valley security engineers or analysts who would like to transition into a C-level take call. What can they do to establish credibility and trust with teams who may have been their peers just weeks before?

Well, again, I like to include other people in the conversation. And so saying to your peers, your previous peers. I want to be a really good boss. I know that I can't do that without understanding what you think a really good boss looks like. So you had good bosses in the past. What made them good? So we start to define excellence together. And then we're transparent about it.

Wow, that's powerful. Wow. Okay, uh, I like that a lot. Can you walk us through your trust model and what are the key components and how can leaders start applying it right away? And I believe it's also well described in your Building Trust, uh, best-selling book on Amazon.

Yeah, I probably would I tried to write the book in a way that everyone could read it. And I wrote it so that if I go away, what I know doesn't. And so, as I was saying, trust is the willingness to make yourself vulnerable when you can't completely predict how someone else is going to behave. And so that has elements of uncertainty and vulnerability baked into it. And when we're deciding to trust someone, we ask ourselves two fundamental questions. First is how likely am I to be harmed, which is perceived uncertainty. Second is, mm-hmm, if I'm harmed, how bad's it gonna hurt, which is perceived vulnerability.

Mm-hmm.

And those are the basis of trust. So it's uncertainty times vulnerability gives us a level of perceived risk. And we each have a threshold risk that we can tolerate. And if we go beyond that threshold, we don't trust. If we're beneath it, then we do. And so if we think about, ah, early relationships, uncertainty's high, which means that vulnerability has to be low. As that relationship gets deeper, the range of vulnerability we can tolerate starts to grow. In our deepest relationships. We have just a sliver of uncertainty and then we can have a huge range of vulnerability.

Yes.

And so to build trust, we just need to understand where does uncertainty come from? How do we take steps to reduce it? Where does vulnerability come from? How do we take steps to help people manage it?

Wow.

So uncertainty comes from us as individuals and from the context we're embedded in. And context is just the rules of the game, the formal and the informal mechanisms of social control. And so one of the things I learned about helping the Canadian military in Afghanistan was that context plays a huge role. Early on, and it carries more freight than us as individuals. And that's why we have rules and regulations in the Navy, right? We can have a set of predetermined expectations so that people can jump to tasks quickly. And it's why in cybersecurity we have rules that we've set up for algorithms, for systems, for how we're going to build them so that everyone can predict. And if we think about it, there are times we trust people without knowing anything about them. You go to a doctor's office, they say, take off your clothes, and you do. I've tried that in other places, Bob. Doesn't work. And if we take that example, same two people dressed the same way and shifted it from the doctor's office to a gas station restroom, it goes from credible to creepy in a heartbeat.

Yes.

And so context is one of the levers we can pull. I can explain the rules to you. I can explain how I'm constrained. Makes it easier for you to predict my behavior. Wow. Within us—

wow, that's—

oh, sorry.

Please, please continue. That is, that is quite powerful what you just said.

Yeah. And I was one of the first to talk about context. Um, apparently there's research coming out recently that talks about it, but 20 years ago, that was my thesis.

Wow. That's powerful.

And then 3 more levers lie within us as individuals. There's benevolence, which is having someone's best interest at heart. There's integrity. Do I follow through on my promises? And do my actions line up with my values? And there's ability. Do I have the competence to do what I say I'm going to do?

Wow, that is powerful. Powerful. So what do you think is one small daily habit that leaders can practice to increase trust with our team?

Hmm. So there's being vulnerable promotes a sense that it's safe to be vulnerable. And so my advice to anyone is when you want to build trust, go first. We see in the worldwide that Vulnerability hasn't really gone down over the last decade, but uncertainty is bouncing all over the place, which means it's really— and it's why trust levels are some of the lowest levels we've ever measured. Because asking people to be just a little bit more vulnerable is harder than it's ever been. And so we need to be intentional and thoughtful. Because people interpret the world through stories. And so we need to be aware of the stories they're telling, share our stories with them, and start with a little bit of vulnerability. So in the Navy, that might look like, hey, when I was in your role, I made a bunch of mistakes. One of them was the Hall of Fame. Or there are moments where this job is hard, right? And I just did a workshop for the AV Navy and we talked about challenges that come in a military setting, particularly around integrity, because it could be hard to make promises that you could follow through on. When you're involved in a highly uncertain environment.

Mm-hmm.

And you don't always have control. So you need to be careful about what commitments you make, what promises you make. Only focus on promising about things that you have control over. Things like the effort you'll put in. Or you'll look out for your, for your crew.

Wow. That is, uh, extremely insightful. So the last question I'm gonna ask you for this first segment before we go to the, uh, second segment is, uh, in an era of artificial intelligence, emerging tech, remote work, and global uncertainty, what does the future of trust look like?

So trust levels are the lowest we've ever seen. Um, yeah. With artificial intelligence and social media, we have lost the ability to learn about trust— this is about building relationships. We need to be more intentional than we've ever been. Bob Fabien Zinga, when I was young, I could make friends very quickly because it's easy for me to build connections. Stupid mistakes and be an idiot multiple times in a row. And people were stuck with me. And so I had to learn, grow, and adapt. Eventually someone would take me aside and say, you're being an idiot. We've lost that. And so now we make a mistake, we're just cut loose. And so I think unless we're intentional, things are just going to keep getting worse.

Wow. That gives us a lot to, uh, think about. Is there a question I should have asked you for the first segment that I haven't asked yet?

Was that the full model? Because I got you through uncertainty and vulnerability. Yeah, but after we make the trust decision, we have a perceived outcome and that feeds back for us into our next interaction. And in the middle of all this is our emotional states. 99% of trust research treats people like irrational actors. And I don't know if you've met people before, Bob. We're not always rational.

Yeah. Definitely emotional.

And the more emotional we become, the less rational we are.

Nice.

Hmm.

That is powerful. Yeah, because I remember when I, when I was growing up, you know, people used to say women are a lot more emotional than, than men, but that's definitely not, not true. We are all emotional beings, aren't we?

We are. And fail to take that into account is why some of these disputes are so resilient.

Yes.

Wow.

Okay. Thank, thank, thank you so much for, for sharing this. It's really, uh, impactful. I'm, I'm really glad you are, you are here. So the second segment, we're gonna be focusing more on leadership. What is, uh, The greatest lesson you think you've learned so far?

Hmm. That there isn't a silver bullet. That people need different approaches. Some need firm, authoritarian approaches. Some need a softer touch. Um, we can't be aware of that unless we include them in the conversation.

Yes. Wow. That is powerful. Conversation. Yes. Okay. And, uh, now you've got a PhD from Duke and your life is very inspirational and you've shown a lot of resilience and things that you were able to overcome. What, what do you think is, uh, the, uh, secret of your success?

I think it's a combination of things. I mean, a hard road can be a good teacher if we let it. And having the right story in place. You know, when you interpret the world through stories.

Yes.

I mean, I've got challenges. I'm legally blind, you know, I'm follow-through challenged. Um, there's, there's been significant pain through a good portion of my life. Being able to reframe that as part of my growth and something that makes me stronger and better allows me to persevere.

Hmm. Wow, that is, that is powerful. Um, I had another guest a couple of weeks ago, uh, A.D. Bright Jr., and he said that on the other side of your pain, that's where the blessing is. There is hope. Sometimes you're gonna be able to help a lot more people just because of what you went through. But while you're going through it, sometimes you don't realize that there is a blessing on the other side. That is quite powerful. So, What's the greatest leadership advice you have ever received, do you think?

Hmm. I don't know. I guess it would have come from theater. No one else knows the lines. And so, as long as you don't overcommit. As long as you're able to express confidence, people will follow. And that confidence needs to come from the people you lead, right? That we can accomplish something. Yes. You know, my son was on a baseball team and he was hoping to get a baseball scholarship. And he said to me, we've got a young team, we're hitting at our green speed, we're going to lose just about every game. And I said, well, you need to redefine success around things that you have control over. Mm-hmm. And so you want to get a baseball scholarship. That means you need to do well in school, but you also need to be a good teammate. You need to continue to develop your own skills. You need to have a good relationship with the coaches so that they'll advocate for you. Hmm. And we revisited that. Multiple times, right? He'd come home and say, we, we just got crushed. And I'd say, but how are you doing against things you have control over? He'd say, well, I made the all-star team and my coaches love me and I'm a good teammate. I teach the young guys. Yes. I help them improve. I really enjoy seeing them be successful.

Wow, that is quite powerful. And, uh, as a leader, what, what are you learning now?

I'm still learning how to get the signal through the noise, how to have— how to get people's attention, right? So When I talk about trust, if I get the chance to solve people's problems, they realize, okay, this is powerful. It has impact. But when we first start talking about it, people assume that I'm going to be walking them around with blindfolds or crosswalk poles, or they're going to be falling off things, singing kumbaya. And they don't know that there's a real science behind it, but there's an art too. And so getting people to actually take those first steps to try something new, I'm still trying to get better at helping people strive.

And learn.

Hmm.

That is very good. And what is the greatest investment you have made in yourself, you think?

Again, I'm going to go back to the story. You know, it's easy for us to have a negative story about self.

Yes.

Um, and that positive narrative You know, when it comes to my kids, I have a relativity positive narrative, which allows me to interpret new information about them in the best way possible. Can I have that same positive narrative about myself?

Wow.

Can I give myself grace?

Hmm.

That is powerful. So it's, it's really all about reframing. I guess you've said it in many different way, but, uh, how do you interpret what is happening to you and how do you reframe your experience in a positive way that's going to empower you to move forward?

And how do you help others reframe for themselves? Mm-hmm.

Yes. Wow. All right, so I have this coin, I like to show it. On one side it says success, on the other side it says failure. I really believe success and failure are two sides of the same coin. We know all about your successes, but how has failure shaped your life?

So I keep learning. When we do podcasts or we do interviews, I need to keep being aware of how I can get better, or, hmm, if I've flopped with something, I can't let it prevent me from trying in the future. So I talk sometimes about internal and external locus of control. When I was teaching undergrads, I would talk to them about this and I'd say, an internal locus of control means you master your own destiny. You're an Adler in the world. An external locus of control means you're buffeted by the winds of fate. Things happen to you. And I'd say, how many of you here have an internal locus internal locus of control. And all the hands would go up. It's a stirring sight. And then I say, this is awesome. That means that if you fail this class, or if you don't do well, it's not because I didn't teach you properly, or the test was too hard. It's all you, baby. And they kind of go, oh no, wait. And I say, yeah, we've got an internal locus of control. When we're successful, and an external looks to control when we fail. My sons have never played a sporting event where their team lost that the ref didn't suck. And what we need to do is look at the reasons we succeeded. Look for hints about the context that helped us be successful. And then when we fail, look at things we could have done differently, signals we could have seen, ways we could have improved our performance.

Wow. That is, that is quite powerful. I think in, in the Navy, we learned that as extreme ownership, right? If, uh, we fail, it's because of us. And if we win, it's because of us too. But as a leader, what when we do win, I share credit with the entire team. And if we do fail, it's I as a leader who has failed, and I kind of COVID and shield my team. That's pretty much how we are taught leadership in the Navy. That is very insightful. So now, who are some of your thought leaders, people you follow that we should know?

So I will always mention Adam Grant. And Scott Nelson, how, uh, yeah. Amy Edmondson, who does work on psychological safety.

Wow.

Those are kind of the main ones that I lean on. Very good.

Uh, yeah, I know all of them and I am connected to most of them. Uh, Dr. Amy, I believe she's a, um, Harvard. And yeah, I've read her book. She's made psychological safety very famous.

Uh, okay.

So if you could choose 3 people to have dinner with, they could be alive, dead, or mythical figure, who would you choose and why?

Oh, it's a good question, Bob. How, um, well, I'm kind of enjoying our conversation. Would you be open to having dinner with me? Sure. Okay. So you're one.

Oh, this is the first time it's ever happened. I've been doing this for 4 years. Nobody has ever selected me, but yeah, I definitely would have dinner with you. I would learn a lot more about trust for sure.

Uh, how about we join with Socrates?

Yeah.

Because I love his line of thinking.

Yeah.

And what, what I love about Socrates, no, all I know is that I don't know anything, right? Uh, it's, uh, that's definitely some, something I, I learned from reading his, uh, writing. It's just the humility in the knowledge and, uh, being conscious of what you do know and what you still have to learn. It's incredible.

Well, and for me, growing up where I grew up, the fact that I know certain things makes me no better than anyone else. It actually puts a responsibility on me to help others understand the world the way that I do.

Wow.

That is powerful. Okay. And who would be the third person on the dinner table?

Can we have God?

Yeah, go through it, right?

Why are things so hard? Hmm. You know, what, what's doing it going?

Wow.

Yeah. And going back to the question I asked you about how has failure shaped your life? In my experience, when I succeed, I don't learn very much out of my successes. Right. And, uh, it's when I do fail that I really, really learn a lot. And when, when things are easy, again, I don't learn very much, but when things are challenging, that's usually when I grow. So now sometimes it's painful. Sometimes you may have to cry, but again, on the other side of that pain, I think is where the blessing is if you just don't give up. But, but yeah, that would be a very interesting question to ask God for.

Sure.

Wow. Okay. So what, what are you reading right now? Which, which books are you reading and which one would you recommend?

So I'm a big fan of Thinking Fast, Thinking Slow by Kahneman. Yeah. One of my favorite books is Exit, Voice, Loyalty. I just thought of that. It was written in the '60s. Talks about how economists think about how we respond to failures versus political scientists.

Um, do, do you remember the author of that one?

Uh, it's escaping me. I apologize.

Yeah, that's, I will, I, I will find it on, on Amazon and add it to the article we're gonna write about this. That's pretty Fascinating. I don't think I've read this one before. I will add it to my reading list. Pretty cool. Any, any other book you would recommend? Actually, I think there is one we absolutely have to recommend. This one here, right? Building Trust by Dr. Daryl Stickell. Exceptional leadership in an uncertain world.

And I really tried to make it so that people got the whole model and they got recommendations for how to pull the different levers. Really, when we're training people and coaching people, we have a very practical, applied approach that goes through and says, okay, so here's how you show someone benevolence. Because a lot of times when I talk to leaders, I'll say benevolence, integrity, and human ability, and they'll say, I do that.

Nice.

And my response would be, says who? Because Bob, if it's me telling you I'm the devil, that carries a lot less freight than you thinking it. And for me to get you to think it, I actually have to have the conversation with you.

Hmm.

Powerful.

So which, which podcasts would you recommend?

I like Raging Water.

Wisconsin.

That's the main one I'm listening to right now.

Okay. I think there is one more. This one here, The Imperfect Cafe with Daryl Searle. Yeah.

We'll kind of talk to people about shedding that notion of perfection, whether you're a parent or a leader. People need to see how you handle it when things go wrong.

Powerful.

Are there any YouTube channels that you would recommend? If not, that's okay.

Yeah, not off the top of my head.

Because it seems like YouTube has now become the number one media channel in the entire world platform. More people go on YouTube than they go on cable and everywhere else. It's incredible.

Well, part of the challenge for me, Bob, is that I want my message to get to everyone. And if they hear that I'm listening to one side or the other, it's going to alienate and—

us, us of them. Yeah.

And so we're in an environment where it's hard for me to be that vulnerable. Because, no, no, yeah, just the message really resonates for both sides. Yeah. And I don't want to lose half of North America.

Yes. Yeah, I think it was Michael Jordan who said why he wasn't getting political, because he says Republicans need sneakers too. But which makes perfect, perfect sense. But I believe Scott Galloway, I know he's only on a couple of, podcast. He's usually pretty insightful, except when he tries to be very funny, but, uh, yeah.

Uh, cool.

What about, uh, music or movies? Any songs or movies you would recommend?

Yeah, I like Sarah Bernhardt Ellis, uh, Brave, which is basically about Speaking up, being brave, making ourselves a little bit vulnerable. Yes. Um, I saw—

Any movie?

Well, I saw you ask one of your other guests what movie would describe their life. Mm-hmm. Or book or song. Yeah. And gotta admit, I thought the Book of Job. But, ah, but, uh, I think—

Again.

Finding Happiness with Will Smith. Uh-huh. Um, because there's a story there of perseverance.

Yeah.

And, and while he was seeking happiness for himself, I really want to have positive impact on the world. I want to make it a better place for my sons and your daughters. Yeah. And I think we need to pull together to do that.

Powerful. Yeah, it's very, very inspirational movie. I think you are probably the 6th person who's recommended it for this year alone. Uh, great, great, great movie. Because I think I was a lieutenant junior grade when my commanding officer kind of taught me how to look for leadership principle in movies, which was pretty, pretty cool. So I don't really watch a lot of movies, but when I want to do, I always try to see what's the lesson here? What can I learn from this? Even if it's a fictional story, but cool. Okay. So, uh, what have you done that we should do?

So I consistently try to find positive narrative for others. And right now I'm focused on something called the Aspiring Men's Program. It's something that's early stages of development. Young men are in dire straits right now. They make up, yes, 80% of the suicide rate. Their mental health, hmm, that's not in a good place. They are underrepresented in advanced education, overrepresented in substance abuse and addiction. Yes.

And yeah, and another big worry I have, I have two daughters, but some of the boys I see, they really don't have mentors or people they can learn from. And sometimes they're also very lonely. Uh, they just play games in the basement all day long and don't really have any, uh, relationship with human, human being, only AI chatbots or whatever they watch on social media, which is sad. Yeah.

I'm focusing my work on helping them build strong relations so that they become more resilient, so that they can thrive. The opposite of addiction isn't sobriety. It's connection.

Hmm. And say that, say that one more time, please. This is powerful.

The opposite of addiction is not sobriety. It's connection.

Wow.

And what I was telling you before, that we've kind of lost that ability to learn and evolve and figure out how to build strong relationships. Mm-hmm. I want to teach people that. And I'm starting with Yamaha. I've been working on it with executives for years, but I think there's a real need.

That is powerful. Now we talk about the pursuit of happiness, but I definitely believe that strong relationship is definitely a very core component of that. Wow. Powerful. Okay. Let me ask you this. If you had one and only one day to live, what would you have liked your final contribution to be?

So one of my colleagues and friends said, I wish that America could just sit and listen to you for a couple of hours. Uh, I would like my work to become mainstream and for everyone to know how to be thoughtful and intentional about building strong relationships with each other. Powerful.

Powerful. Yeah, that will definitely make our world a better place for sure. Me being in the military, I strongly believe, you know, and support and defend the Constitution and especially the First Amendment. And I know I would fight and even, you know, be willing to die for the right of people to say things that I absolutely did not agree with, uh, because I think that's really what makes us, you know, America, I think, the leader of the free world so far.

And it's getting harder to have conversations.

Yes. Which is really, really sad. We have to be tolerant of other people's perspective and definitely never ever resort to violence. You know, we need to keep keep talking and also being willing to have an open mind and change your belief too if needed. But yeah, I think you are absolutely right. We absolutely need to go back there. So what is one problem when you wake up in the morning you would like to solve?

I think it goes back again to getting the signal through the noise. So we see that young men are engaged in mass shootings, assassination.

Mm-hmm.

And I have to think that it's because they don't feel like they can make change in the world. They, they feel isolated and desperate and like they have nothing to lose. I'd like to change that.

Wow. It's powerful. Definitely something we need now more and more. But this is something you care a lot about. I care about that too. For the average person listening to us right now, is there anything that everybody can do to kind of help solve this problem, you think?

Well, I think we need to change our story.

I'm thinking mentorship is probably key, but yeah, sorry, go ahead.

Yes, Barry. I think we need to change our story. You know, there's this narrative out there that young people don't want to work hard, that they don't care, that they're disengaged, and that story has been told since the '30s.

Hmm.

And what we need to realize is that the context has changed. The rules have changed.

Yes.

When you and I were younger, we had this belief that if we worked hard, everything would work out. They don't believe that anymore. The social contract has been broken. And when billionaires get on social media and say, you just need to work hard, what they hear is, you need to work harder so I make more money. Yeah.

Yeah.

And wow. And so we need to have a positive story about them, that they're doing the best they can in the environment that we've created. Mm-hmm.

Wow.

That is, that is powerful. So we, we end of our podcast now, almost out of, out of time. Uh, how can we add value back to you? You've been so generous with your time and your wisdom.

Well, I would be thrilled if folks shared this podcast. Um, buy the book, read it.

Yes.

Reach out. Uh, you can reach me at daniel@trustunlimited.com. Um, check out the website, The Imperfect Cafe. The website's called Trust Unlimited, and there's blogs there. Help me be intentional about bringing the message to the world. I, I feel like I'm dropping grains of sand in the ocean. People need to help me pick up great big rocks.

Yes. Wow. Powerful. And again, I want everybody to follow you on LinkedIn. So that's linkedin.com/in/deol-stickel-phd. So people can follow you, very easy to remember. Okay. Is there a question I should have asked you for the second segment that I haven't asked yet?

This has been a great conversation.

Fantastic.

Yeah, I know. I think you nailed it.

So even is my last question for you, serious question, I guess the most important question. If you could go back and give a piece of advice to your 17-year-old self standing at the edge of this incredible career you've had, what would you say to 17-year-old Daryl Stickle?

I would've said it's gonna be hard, but it's gonna be all right. Powerful.

It's going to be all right. Well, I mean, I really love your positive narrative. We definitely need to to do more of that. So very, very quickly now, I know we are at the end of our session, but this is going to be really quick. What did you want to be when you were a kid?

I don't know. I think an airline pilot.

Okay. I think a lot of kids did, and that's not what you are now, which is perfectly fine. So 3 adjectives describing you as a child.

Confident.

Friendly.

Mm-hmm.

One more. Don't think around. Curious. Okay. What about as an adult?

Engaged.

Mm-hmm.

Still curious. Mm-hmm. Tired.

Okay. But I think you're still confident and very friendly too as an adult, but, but good. Okay. Fantastic. And then the very last question, this is the last one we're going to close. To shut down this podcast, what is one word that represents our shared experience on this podcast today? What word comes to mind?

Hopeful. Hopeful.

Yeah, I think it's everything that you really teach about trust. I think learning to trust even a stranger, being positive and having a positive impact on your environment. That's really what I'm getting out of this wonderful leadership conversation. So thank you so much, Dale, Dr. Stickle, thank you for being here and really appreciate you making the time to share your wisdom and experience with us. Thank you.

Thanks for having me.

All right everyone, this is it on Leadership and Success Podcast today on season 4. Today was episode, I believe, 77. Wow, we've had 77 episodes since the beginning of this year. So I'm gonna be back here tomorrow, I believe, so around 11 o'clock, and I'm going to have Chris as my guest. And then I'll be back again on Wednesday. I'm going to have Coach Houston as my guest. So make sure to follow me on LinkedIn and find out when I'm going to be back. And I don't see any questions on LinkedIn or on YouTube. So until tomorrow, have a wonderful, wonderful rest of your day. Thanks again for being with us today. Bye.

Thank you for listening to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If you like what you heard, please subscribe to our channels and come back for more wisdom nuggets on how you may develop into a better leader and achieve greater levels of success. Leadership is the most critical skill. The world will always need leaders to lead others, deploy the next disruptive technology, or execute a business strategy. You may as well decide on counting yourself among the 21st century leaders. See you right here next time on the Leadership and Success Podcast with Coach BZ.