S4:E83 🎙️LIVE with Octavia Goredema

Hi, I'm John Maxwell. When the top companies in the world are looking for trainers, speakers, and coaches, there's one name that stands above the rest, and that's Maxwell Leadership. Our certified team members have gotten proven results for companies all over the globe, and our reputation, I'm proud to say, is second to none. Some of our members have risen to the top of their profession. Including the one you're going to meet today. I proudly introduce you to my friend, Bob Fabien Zinga.

Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If you need to develop into a better leader, this podcast is for you. If you want to achieve a greater level of success, this podcast is for you. His mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell, said it best: everything rises and falls on leadership. We hope to inspire you today and provide you with an insight that has the potential to positively impact the trajectory of your life. Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast.

A new year means new opportunities, and today we're kicking off our New Year, New Job series to help kick down the doors of success. Octavia Gordima is the founder of a career coaching agency, and she's also the author of Prep, Push, Pivot, which releases Wednesday. She's about to school us on preparing for a new job, transitioning, pivoting, and working your way up that corporate ladder.

Good morning, Mike. Thank you so much for having me. As a dual citizen of the US and UK, Octavia is one of the youngest Black women to receive the honor of Member of the Order of the British Empire. Now, this is the highest civic honor one can receive by the Queen of England for exemplary work. Oh, good morning, Nyjah. Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. You have to have the conversations as early as possible so that you have an understanding not only of communicating where you want to be in your organization, but also understanding. This has been a year unlike any other for us, but you leave me constantly wondering, how does Dr. Fauci do it? In addition to government briefings and countless media interviews, I read that you're still an attending physician and treat patients every week. How do you manage your time and how do you deal with burnout? My name's Octavia Gorodima, and I'm the author of Prep, Push, Pivot. I'm a career coach, but I recognize that most people just don't have the opportunity to work with a coach during the course of their careers. There's one opinion that matters the most when it comes to your career, and that's your own, because bosses are going to come and go, co-workers are going to come and go. But here's the thing, while we're trying to navigate our way through the workplace, so many of us are dealing with bias or perceptions of tokenism. So if you're in that situation, I want you to remember this: the role you have is yours.

What everyone, this is Coach Bizzy. I'm so glad you are here with me live on LinkedIn. LinkedIn and YouTube, and if you have a platform. To get started, let's do our moment of gratitude. It's gonna take less than a minute. If you would please, if you can close your eyes, put yourself in your happy place, and think about one thing, right, that is, that you are grateful for today. So I think for me today, I am just grateful grateful for all of the great people that I meet every day online on LinkedIn and in person. I think I've really never met a stranger. I am just grateful for people who add so much value into my life, and I try to add value to their life as well. So I am really grateful for my connections today. So if you can type in the comment again what you are grateful for, and also where are you joining us from what city, what state if in the US, or what country if outside of the United States. And I also would like to know if, if it's possible, tag someone you think is going to benefit from this podcast so they can join you and watch us live. And you can of course restate this event on your feed if you'd like, and I really do appreciate that very, very much. Okay. Without any further ado, let me bring to you, uh, the guest of the hour. So I'm really thrilled to invite you to this episode, live episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast, which will be featuring the incredible, the one and only Octavia, uh, Gardeman. You saw like a brief clip of what she does. She's an author, a career coach, a founder of Fire Memos. So why should you join us today? Octavia is on a mission to help professional, especially underrepresented women, right, on their success, advance their career, and pivot with purpose. And her books, Prep, Push, and Pivot, Brand Yourself for Success, and How to Change Careers, have transformed the way thousands of people approach work and leadership. So without any further ado, ladies and gentlemen, help me welcome Octavia. Hold on, uh, just one I can't. Here we go. All right, Octavia, how are you doing?

Oh my goodness, Coach Bizay, thank you so much for that warm, warm, warm, warm, warm welcome.

Pleasure is all mine. Is there one thing that you are thankful for today?

Um, well, I— in listening to that intro, and thank you for that moment to Pause, Coach BZ. I'm really thankful for acts of kindness, and I think that starts with you. Um, just looking at the ticker on this conversation we're having, Season 4, Episode 83, and the energy, um, that you're bringing, um, to uplift so many, that really touches me. And thank you for your act of kindness to me in reaching out to a stranger on LinkedIn and forming a connection. And I really feel like I connected with you so quickly over DMs, and now here we are having this conversation. So thank you for that.

Really, really incredible. I'm really grateful that you are willing to share your knowledge freely and really, for me, impacting the next generation of leaders, especially in the military and in high tech. So Thank you. Thank you so much. So what is one thing about you that most people may not know about?

Oh my goodness. I love this question. There's probably quite a few things, but I am a really big football fan. And when I say football, apologies to my American friends, I'm talking about soccer. I'm talking about soccer. And so I, I don't actually watch television on a regular basis. I could go weeks, but I do watch sports and I do try and keep up with the Premier League. And even though I'm joining you from Los Angeles, my heart is at the City Ground in Nottingham. My team is Nottingham Forest.

That is really, really incredible. Talking about Nottingham Forest, which is in England, you've been honored by the one and only the Queen at least, yes, I can, for your work. How has recognition at that level shaped your leadership and responsibility?

Um, wow. Well, first of all, it, it was very unexpected. Um, for anyone that might not be familiar, um, the UK has an honors system, and twice a year, um, at New Year, and on the King or Queen's birthday, official birthday in June, the Buckingham Palace announces individuals who are receiving recognition, and I was one of those people back in 2012, and it came out of work that I— that really actually has anchored me when I think about it then and now about forging connections and being a catalyst and finding opportunities to pay it forward. And at that time, I was doing that, um, in a social enterprise that I founded called the 2010 Club. Um, we brought together Black women in business, um, to support one another but also to support the next generation. Um, the young men and women that would be following in our footsteps. We did work in schools, um, we did speed mentoring programs, we invited students to boardrooms. Quite often it was the first time that any of those young people had stepped foot onto a corporate campus and actually into a boardroom and had the opportunity to sit around a table and not wait to raise their hand but actually to have a conversation directly. And that That work was so important to me on multiple levels. Um, growing up, I never had a Black teacher, um, I never saw examples of anyone outside of my own immediate household and my own immediate friendship circles of people not just dreaming bigger but operating at so many different levels in so many ways. And then also, just for me personally, I constantly, constantly I'm motivated and inspired by people who are doing incredible things. And now as I get older, it's not just people who are perhaps older than me, it's also this next generation that are coming through and just doing things that just blow my mind. And so it was really energizing to me personally, but also I knew that we, we collectively, wherever we're at, at work or in business, we have a responsibility to make ourselves available to someone who might have a question or just might want to learn from us because regardless of where you're at and what you're reaching for, there's always someone who's looking at you and would think, I would love to have that opportunity. And we can forget that sometimes.

Wow, that is quite powerful. Thank you so much for really being one of our teachers today. And by the way, I want to acknowledge there is a Crystal Volken who is saying they're watching us from South Africa. Thank you so much. Let us know what you are thankful for, Crystal, and if you have a question for Octavia. Thank you for being there. So you moved right from England to Los Angeles. Yes.

I'm so sorry, could you repeat that question? How did— how did the cultural shift impact Um, oh my goodness, Coach BZ. The one thing I assumed that I had to my advantage moving from London to Los Angeles and having been raised in England, um, and educated in England and started my career in England before moving to Los Angeles, the one thing I thought I had to my advantage was the language. I was like, at least I'm moving somewhere where I don't need to learn the new language. I actually was partially wrong there. I spent my first few weeks here not being able to understand a lot of what was being said to me. I realized the points of reference that people had in conversations were different. The analogies were different. Um, bear in mind, this was 20 years ago. So this was before we had Zoom and Webex and Teams and Google Meets. I spent a lot of time on conference calls with maybe 20 voices, and I had to concentrate so hard to make sure that I understood what was being discussed and being asked of me. And it was— it didn't take me long to adjust, but at the beginning it was much harder than I thought. And I also had to change my cadence of how I spoke Spoke really fast when I first moved here and people would be like, they'd lean in a little, like, could you say that again, please? Or what did you mean? I also used military time as it is known here. And I remember I was in Seattle with a client at a meeting. They're like, and I was like, I said the time, like, what does that mean? Could you say that again? Um, so many things I hadn't thought would be different were. But of course, that's what happens. You, you have to leave behind your assumptions and be ready to embrace what's new and embrace that wholeheartedly. Um, and I'm so glad that I moved out of my comfort zone. Um, I started over, um, a new country a new home, a new everything, um, no network, um, and it was maybe the most important shift I could ever have made, even though at the time I assumed it was a temporary one. Um, of course, benefit of hindsight now, 20 years later, um, but yes, there was, there was a lot that I had underestimated that I needed to learn and be patient and embrace.

Wow, that is quite powerful. And I think many of us, depending on what we go through in life, it may not be such a radical shift as going from England to the US, but people may change job or get their first leadership opportunity or something. And I think it's important to kind of know how to navigate through those changes in life. So thanks so much for sharing. Now, you also often talk about knowing your worth matters, right? Even when it's not reflected back at you. Are those the principal tie-ins to self-leadership?

It was a really important lesson that I personally had to learn, and I learned it the hard way. I think for many, many years, going through school and then applying to university and then working through university and then starting your career, I viewed measures of success in terms of what was reflected back at me. Did you get that job offer? Did you get that grade? Did you get the feedback? And of course, when you're going through firsts, and we go through so many firsts, you know, in a early years in education and in our early years of our career, and we don't want to make a mistake. We want to show that we're capable and we're ready and, and, and we're able. It took me a long time to learn that there were skills and attributes within me that might not be recognized by someone else. But they were so valuable and they mattered. And they mattered whether you got the job offer or whether you didn't get the job offer. They mattered whether you heard a yes or whether you heard a no. Because those are the things that you hold on to. And if you wait for the external markers of success, you've missed what matters most because you have to be ready to bet on yourself. Over and over and over and over again.

Wow, that is powerful. So let's talk about imposter syndrome just a little bit. For many people, especially when they get that new opportunity, yeah, they got the job, but they're not so sure they are the right person for the job, even though they fully qualify. I think it happens to all of us. So what What are some of the best tips or practical steps you recommend to kind of build that confidence?

Yeah, I think everyone experiences this and it doesn't necessarily get easier the more you progress. If anything, it can become even more pronounced because the stakes feel so much higher, that our own expectations grow. Before we even think about anyone else's. And often, if we're feeling that way, like an imposter, I actually think it's because we really, really care. And the fact that we care is actually a good thing, right? We care. We care about doing something well. The opportunity matters to us. It's something that's meaningful. We want to get it right. And I think if we can switch any feelings that we might have about trepidation or fear be excitement and anticipation. I think that's awesome. I think there's also another flip side to it that sometimes we can have a tendency to underestimate when things have gone well as well. Sometimes like, oh well, that's my job, that was expected of me. Or, oh yeah, it was me and I did this with, you know, the people working alongside me. And that's important to acknowledge collaboration and contribution. But I think it's also really important to remember the moments when we did stumble and when it was hard and when we tried again and when we picked it back up and when we kept going and when we hadn't completed the step but we were working towards it. And those in-between times, perhaps when you haven't got the opportunity that you want and you are hearing no, and just remembering that who you are hasn't changed. The person that I am I am today is the same person I was before I got my book deal, but that opportunity opened up another door. But to walk through that door, I had to be ready. And I had to be there and I had to knock. And so I think all of those things, it's important to remember if you're feeling that, it's because you care. And channel that energy in a way that helps you versus holding you back.

That is really incredible. And you are a serial entrepreneur, and one of your Venture Fire memos, right, helps professionals package their wins and advocate for themselves. So how does documentation of success translate into stronger leadership presence?

Oh my goodness. So I wish I could remember exactly how many years ago it was, but I'm gonna say maybe 8, 9, 10 years ago, I received a journal that prompted me to really think about what I'd been working on. And the people that normally asked me those questions were a manager in a meeting, when you're being interviewed, or if I was preparing for a performance review at the end of the year and you're having to really think in detail about all the things that you've done and why they mattered. Outside of that, I wasn't thinking about the things that I'd completed and why they mattered. I was thinking about what did I need to do next, what hadn't I done, what did I want to reach for. And I started the habit of maintaining a list of— and often it was small things, or so I thought— things that I had done that I was proud of. And what I started to see was, Coach Ise, on the days when you're— when things are hard, when you actually feel like, oh my God, I messed that up, or I'm struggling here, that's when this list matters the most, because it reminds you of what you are capable of. And over time you start to see patterns. You start to see that a conversation that you had and an action that you took actually then contributed to learning something new and applying that in a new way. A decision that you made or a problem that you solved actually contributed to something even more impactful that you just couldn't see in the moment. And connecting those dots for ourselves is so powerful because even if you have a brilliant manager who's invested in you and cares for you, they're not going to see all of the things that you're navigating. They're not going to know all of the things that you find hard. And so to be our own best advocates, we have to embrace the habit of tracking our own momentum. And what I also found was if I waited to do this until the end of a month, oh my gosh, it was so hard. Look at us now. We're talking to today on September 30th. I mean, you already told me all the things you're going to do to support this episode, and I'm just one of the many guests that you are hosting. If you were to really stop and think about the things that happened for you in September, you'd remember a few standout moments, but you would forget— you might forget something that didn't seem as significant perhaps when you're looking back from a month, but if you captured it in the moment and then you start to see how you're using that, and the impact that it has, it just becomes so powerful. And so that was such an eye-opener for me. And then when I started my work as a coach and guided others to embrace this habit, the results that I was seeing were just extraordinary. People were suddenly raising their hands to present in town hall meetings at the last minute because they knew that they had wins that they could talk about from their own work and from their team. They had harnessed the habit of recognizing what they were doing, so it made it easier to talk about it with others. Instead of dreading one-on-one meetings, they were actually ready and able to talk about things that they were proud of. And that personal confidence becomes tangible to others. And that's why I feel it's like a gift that keeps giving.

No, that is so powerful. It's actually something I learned in the Navy. We call it the brag sheet. And most people in the Navy, they do it once a year, right? Performance review, fitness report, or something like that. But what I told all my students and what I've learned from my chief was every time you do something, every single day, you have to write it down because you are correct. You're going to forget. Whether it's education, certification, something you did that added value to to your unit or your operation. Do it every day. And then the problem I started having once I started doing this is I have too much to say. The Navy only gives you 18 lines. That's all you get for the entire year. So what I end up doing is I have about, you know, 30 or 60 lines, and then I have to bring it down to 18. So I have to really think about what's the most important thing. So I have the reverse problem of what most people have. Many people, they're like, I can't hardly put one or two lines. Mine is like way too many lines, and I have to concise it now, bring it, bring it down.

But I love that you have 80 or 90 things. That actually is exactly what it should be, because then you start to be very intentional about aggregating and connecting. And also, we don't know it at the start of our careers, but our resumes are just a snapshot of what we can do. They're a snapshot of how we're presenting what we can do to our next prospective employer. They do not encapsulate everything that we can bring to the table, and there might be— out of those achievements, you might not be able to put all of those on your brag sheet or in your performance review, but you can remember them and you can know that they mattered. And you know that you are picking the best of the best, but also there can be value in something that really means so much to you.

Wow.

And remembering that and doing your own performance review, your own, is equally as powerful.

Wow.

That is really a great way to look at it. Like, would I promote myself?

Yes.

Wow.

That is so awesome. But another thing with your startup, Whitefire Memos, can you tell us a little bit more about going from just an idea to now having a startup, kind of what you went through and what you—

Oh my goodness, yes, so much, so much. And that journey is a constant learning journey. When I came up with the idea, first of all, for Findmemos, my belief was that it was going to be an app that actually would help people capture those wins in real time. What I quickly learned from building that and testing that in a beta was that people didn't necessarily have that muscle memory built in. I'm so glad that you do, but that not everyone is conditioned and finds it easy to do that. And what I realized was that actually people needed coaching around that to start to, to build that, and they needed more prompts and guidance and examples to to think differently about their work because a lot of people are like, well, is that significant? That thing that I worked on or that project I completed or that task, how do I define what a win is? How do I define what is enough? And the beauty in being coached around that is you decide. Your growth and what you've learned and how you've applied that matters. And you get to decide as you connect those dots on how that is moving you forward and how is, how that is adding value. And metrics are really, really important, of course, but metrics only tell part of the story. I can only begin to imagine how many conversations you have had on this podcast in season 4 and now episode 83, but That number in itself is monumental, but the value in terms of someone who's listened maybe to one conversation and then gone and applied that one suggestion and used that one suggestion to create a new opportunity, you can't even encapsulate the value in that. And so I think it's really, there's sometimes a lot of work that goes into rethinking and rewiring how we measure success. And so now with FIRE Memos, Providing career content and connections to coaches and resources is really powerful to me and something that inspires me. I realize that I love connecting people, not just with others, but also really connecting them with their potential.

Hmm.

Wow.

And that's in you. And sometimes you need a question or a moment to really think about what is in you and let that come out.

Wow, connecting people with their potential, that is very, very powerful. Yeah, I guess in some small ways is really what I would like to do with this podcast as well. There's so much more that we can do, especially when you are in a room where you happen to be the one and only minority, right? I think it will help I think representation does matter so much. So you've said underrepresented professionals are often overlooked. What best practices can change this reality?

My goodness, um, there's so much, especially now more than ever before, that make this moment a really poignant one. And I think it's really important for all of us to remember how we can pay it forward for others. In addition to thinking about what's difficult and what's challenging, what can we— what can we control? How can we show up? What names can we be bringing up in other rooms? Whose work can we be amplifying? You are doing that. You were doing that just by providing a platform like this. You were doing that in your intentionality and connecting with people on LinkedIn. Um, though we have more power than we may realize, just in terms of the choices that we may make, um, and the way that we connect with others. And I, and I think that's really, really important. I think also transparency as well. Um, sharing how we have done things, what was hard, giving someone the behind-the-scenes perspective on how we're doing what we're doing, I think is so important. People might just see a job title or a bio that sounds very impressive and have no idea otherwise what it took to get there, to maintain that, to navigate that. Um, and that's one of the main reasons why I decided to write my first book, Prep, Push, Pivot, because coaching is so transformative because it's a safe space that you have and you have someone that's invested in you and it's a conversation that's centered on you and your work. But coaching can also be very elitist. It can also be very expensive. It's not necessarily accessible to anyone and everyone who may need it in that moment. And so for me, providing a resource that was affordable affordable but accessible, and anyone could go to the library and borrow it, or if they wanted to choose to, could go online and order it or go to Barnes Noble and pick it up. But the library part actually really resonates with my heart. I, I enjoy the most when I see my book in libraries because I spent so much time in libraries, um, as a child, and I still go to the library, um, to this day. But making information accessible You don't have to become an author to make your story and your journey accessible. You can do that in conversation with peers. You can do that in terms of your network. You can do it within your community. There are so many ways that we can do that. And I think that matters because when people see examples, it makes it feel attainable. And I think that's, that's what matters.

Say that one more time, please.

When people see examples, um, it makes it feel attainable when they can see the examples and hear from those examples and, and hear how that person navigated something hard or what they learned from that experience. Um, it just makes it feel like it's possible. And that has happened for me so many times where someone shared how they did something, what they learned from it. And all of a sudden it got me thinking, I want to try that too.

Wow. That is really powerful. I believe Nelson Mandela said, right? It's impossible until it is done. But before you can do the impossible, you really have to think that you can actually do it. It's a possibility out there and it may as well be you. So the last question I'm going to ask you for the first Next segment is, uh, how do you see technology, especially emerging artificial intelligence, changing the way leaders coach, mentor, and evaluate teams?

Oh my goodness, it's changing everything in real time. Just yesterday, um, someone connected with me on LinkedIn, and I just sent a note saying thank you so much for connecting with me, and she voluntarily told me that she learned about my work via AI. And, and I have no idea how that happened, but there in real time is someone who hadn't heard of Octavia Gorodima before, hadn't read my book, hadn't perhaps seen my profile popped up on LinkedIn, but had heard about me and my work via a tool that none of us were even thinking about or using in our day-to-day work, just even in, you know, a few years ago. It's transformative. I also know though, of course, there were so many unknowns about how it's going to impact all the things that we considered to be true, all the things that we had prepared for or built towards in terms of how we think about our work and our roles and this heightened emphasis on being as efficient and fast as possible. If we can use it to help our work, it's great. But I think the one thing to also remember is that whether you're at the start of your career, the middle of your career, or more senior in your career, your experiences and your connections and your perspectives are so valuable, and that human connection is really powerful. And we should find ways, even as we perhaps use tools to augment our work, to make sure we maintain those connections, um, because that can't be replicated in the same ways.

Wow. Okay. So that's it for segment 1. Is there a question I should have asked you that I haven't asked yet?

Oh no, you've asked a lot. That's great.

Let's switch over to the second segment where we really focus on leadership. First one I'm going to ask you is, what do you think is the greatest lesson you have ever learned?

Oh my goodness. So many. But if you don't ask, you will not get. And when you ask, you may not get the first time, But that doesn't mean you shouldn't have asked, and that doesn't mean you can't keep asking. I would not be here talking to you today if I hadn't worked up the courage to ask my manager if it might be possible for me to work from the Los Angeles office.

Wow.

I spent weeks going back and forth. Oh my gosh, can I ask? What if they say no? Then they're going to think that I don't want to be here anymore. What am I going to do? No one has made that move because the company I was working at had actually just been acquired by an American company. So it wasn't like there was a path that I'd seen of people doing this. I was the first person to ask, can I bounce over to LA? I was absolutely terrified. But do you know what? I asked. And do you know what I heard? Let's make this happen.

Wow.

Now, it wasn't as immediate as one person saying, let's make this happen. They had to then ask someone else, who then had to ask someone else. And then I had to— there actually was a potential opportunity that I could be a fit for. That wasn't just handed to me. I then had to interview, not just with one person and not just once. I think I met with 9 people. There were lots of steps. But if I hadn't asked to begin with, that door might never have opened for me.

Wow.

And that changed my career in so many ways.

Yes.

There were so many times where I learned to ask, not necessarily with an attachment to hearing a yes immediately, but knowing that if something mattered to me and there was something I wanted to learn or experience or do, I needed to use my voice and not be afraid of doing so.

That is really, really powerful. Use your voice. And the other thing about that too is, no, the worst that can happen to you when you ask, they're gonna say no, right? They're not gonna beat you up, put you in prison or bankrupt you or anything. All they're gonna say is no. Just one word. That's it.

So exactly.

And if they do say yes, then you may as well try, right?

Exactly. And even a maybe or a not now, you're not in a different position than the position that you were in before. And that's why, you know, people who work in sales learn this really early, that you've got to keep asking and you'll get a no, because every no will move you closer to a maybe or a yes. And I think there can be times, especially perhaps when we've moved in a certain direction and we're known in a certain way, we feel the stakes are higher to ask ask for something that might feel like we're breaking the mold, we're breaking the norm, we're doing something unexpected, we're asking for more than we should expect. Ask anyway. What have you got to lose?

That is really powerful. What do you have to lose? I think if you want to use a sports metaphor, like in basketball, you will never score shots that you do not take. So at least take the shot, and who knows what might happen? It might just change your life. All right. So with all of the successes you've experienced in life, what do you think is the secret of your success?

Success is a really subjective term. And in all honesty, I feel like I'm just beginning. There are so many things that I want to experience and do. That does not mean I'm not proud of a lot of things. Some things are visible that I've done. There's a lot that aren't visible that are growth. Growth measures for me in terms of habits and behaviors and learnings and experiences that I think are so, so important and so powerful. I think success for me has changed so much, and I'm sure it changes for all of us, of course, over the course of our careers, that what we think we want, and often then we get it and it's good and it's exciting, but then we realize actually that's just the beginning, or that's just part of it. Um, I think though, to answer your question, learning how to trust myself even when the in-between times is the thing I'm proudest of.

That is powerful. Wow, okay, that is, that is really great. And I really like also the, the idea of having your own definition of success, not just, uh, trying to be what every— everybody else is, um, doing. That is, that is so important, knowing your, your own values and, uh, what you, uh, stand for. Okay, so, uh, what do you think is the greatest leadership advice you have ever received?

Oh my goodness. Um, very early on in my career, I was really good at raising my hand and saying, "No, but," and like trying, thinking I was adding value in terms of pointing out something that perhaps wasn't going to work the way that our team thought it might, or someone saying. And I remember very early on, my boss took me to one side and he was like, "Octavia, don't just come to me with the problem. Come to me with the solution." And I try and remember that constantly also with myself. When I see something that's hard, hard. Okay, don't just think about the hard thing and, uh, yes, what's a way around that? What could I do? What's a conversation I need to have? What can I learn from that? How could I— how can I push through this? Um, and so learning that lesson, I think I was like 3 years into my career, was really, really, really, really important, and I've never forgotten it. And I've applied that in, in so many ways. And I see it constantly when I, you know, I spend a lot of time supporting companies. I, you know, I deliver workshops, I do one-on-one coaching, and I see the dynamic and I see the people that thrive aren't necessarily the people that are the smartest. They're not necessarily the people that have the most information. It's attitude. Are they ready to learn from something and then do something differently and help others to do the same?

That is powerful.

Or are they actually going to stay stuck or complain or keep repeating cycles because they're afraid to change? Um, and so I think that was really poignant to me. And also Before I started my professional career, when I was a student, I worked in retail, you know, working on shop floors. And when you have 8 hours a week, you see different managers and seeing the dynamic of different management styles, what motivated people, how people did their work, it was a real— actually, I learned so much. Um, from those retail experiences about how you lead, how you assemble teams, how you get the best out of your team, how you prepare for the day, how you close out, um, all of those things. Even though I didn't continue a career in retail after I graduated from university and started my career, a lot of those lessons really stuck with me to this day, and I'm so grateful for them because I could see from the ground what it took to, to do the work, um, and to bring teams together. And so, yes, all of those early lessons informed so much.

That is really, really powerful, everything you have said. I know one of my mentors used to say, your attitude will determine your altitude. And he also said, you are your full attitude, and then you're gonna train them for skills. But because that's some things that you can't really easily train people. But if you have nice people, then, you know, it's, it's easier to, to teach them how to do whatever it is. And you also talked about emotional intelligence as well, not only being aware of yourself but also being aware of your surroundings and paying attention. And things that you learn when people don't even talk to you, but just by being in the environment and being—

yes.

Yes, attention, very important skill. Wow. So what, what are you learning right now?

Oh my goodness, so many things. So writing has always been something I have loved and enjoyed, um, and I write in so many forms. Um, I, in the past 3 years, have written for audio. Um, my most recent title is an Audible original called Brand Yourself for Success with Octavia Gorodima, and that has been one of the most fun learning experiences of my career so far. Um, it might sound unusual, I guess. You think, well, you've written a book, is it not the same? And actually, no. Writing for audio first, actually, I think is a skill that will help me with all of the writing that I will do from here on in, whether it's for our newsletter content, um, for FIRE Memos, whether it's for LinkedIn, whether it's for future books, because What it made crystal clear to me is the power of our voice. And I think this is especially important, especially when we're looking at what you're bringing up about AI and how it is, what are the impact. And I see a lot of people leaning on AI tools for communication, and that's not necessarily a wrong thing to do. I use AI tools to help me edit and perhaps come up with ideas, but we have to remember our voice.

Yes.

Our voice. Wow. It's the most unique asset we have and how we use it, whether it's in conversation or in meetings or how we write, that is everything. And when I was writing the script that I would narrate for this title, I would talk, I would start by talking. I would hit the— there's like a microphone button that you have in Word or in a Google Doc, and I would hit that button and I would start talking to share the ideas that I wanted to convey. I didn't start with typing, I started with talking, and then I went and edited and refined, and that process was so much fun. Um, it felt it was just so joyous to me. It's, I think, the most favorite piece of written work that I have created. And, and then when it came to narrating it, um, it just— yeah, it was a really special experience, um, and one that taught me a lot. I'm extremely thankful for that.

That's, that's really beautiful. Maybe you kind of alluded to it when I asked you about your definition of success. No, Most people, this coin, one side says success, the other side says failure. I think success and failure is really two sides of the same coin. Everybody knows about all of your successes, your books, your coaching, and all of that. But how has failure shaped your life?

Oh my goodness. Failure constantly shaping my life. I'm constantly getting reminded and stumbling and like, no, this isn't working. I think it's that, and this is why I'm grateful about the move that I made to the United States. It's a reminder that even if you're starting from zero, even if you're arriving with two suitcases and knowing nobody and, you know, learning how to drive all over again and doing all things, you are capable of more than you realize. And anything that might be hard or didn't work actually is something that's going to make you better and stronger. Um, in the long run. Um, it's hard to remember that in the moment, um, especially, especially when it stings. Oh, and thank you, Christopher. Oh my gosh, thank you for listening, um, to my Audible. I, I, I love, love, love, um, hearing from people that have listened, so thank you so much for sharing that. But, but back to the fact, when you stumble and you don't get the thing and it doesn't work, oh my gosh, it hurts, right? It really, really hurts. And so I think recognizing that but not letting that stop you, you know, when things don't go to plan, pivot. Trust that, trust that you can do it. And so there were so many moments where I thought it was the end and no, of course not. Of course it's not. It's just the beginning.

What a perspective. That's very empowering. And yeah, you are right. Thank you so much, Christopher, for letting us know that Brand Yourself for Success was amazing. I'm pretty sure it was. And make sure to also get the other audiobook, right? How to Change Careers.

Yes, that was my first Audible original. Wow.

That is amazing. And also, Christopher, please let us know where you are coming from, one thing you are grateful for today, and if you have a question for the amazing Octavia while we have her live on LinkedIn. Thank you. Thank you so much. So who are some of the people that you follow, that you have learned from, that you think my audience should get to know?

Oh my goodness. It's not possible for your audience to follow them, but my daughters. Oh my gosh. My daughters teach me so much every Every single day, every dinner time, I'm like, say that again. There's some reference or some meme or just some topic that they are teaching me. The story that I just told about trusting my voice and starting with conversation, do you know where I learned that from? My eldest daughter.

Wow.

She was watching me struggling with, like, I think a deadline was coming up and she's like, what are you doing, Mom? I was like, trying to write this thing and I'm really stuck. And she's like, why don't you just talk to the page? I was like, pardon? And she said, look, hit that button there and just start talking. And I was like— so that's what I did.

That is just wonderful. Yeah, when I was a commanding officer, it's a really big deal in the US Navy. It's really surprising happening out these days, right? You have more than 4 or 5 generations working at the very same time. And, uh, motivating Gen Z, no, my kids' age, it's— yes, challenging at times. So definitely my daughter has really taught me how to motivate people from their generation.

Oh my gosh, so much, so much. My other daughter, who's Gen Alpha, um, she loves Roblox and she wanted Robux, the currency that you use in the game. And I was like, uh, no, you're not getting that. So she asked it quite a few times because she's good at asking, and the answer was still no. So then she decided she was going to earn her own Robux, and she opened a store in the game, and she just told me last week she just sold her 4,000th— 4,000th unit of clothing in this store, and she's built a business in the game. She's 13. Wow.

That just blew my mind. But this is the other thing too. Even as a CEO, I was talking to my triad, the second in charge and the enlisted leader, trying to figure out the problem. We just couldn't come up with a solution. Then I invited in all of my department heads, all officers, about 12 of them. We couldn't come up with a solution. And then I decided, okay, I made myself vulnerable and I opened it up to the entire unit. And one of the lowest-ranked person unless he came up with an idea and we were able to execute the idea and do what we thought was impossible. So you can really learn from anyone and everyone. It's just—

Exactly that part. I am finding so much that I am learning the most from people that are 20 and 30 years younger than me. And it's really important, I also think, for organizations to think about reverse mentoring opportunities and providing the opportunity for early career professionals to connect, yes, with seniors, not the way that you think it might be, but the other way around, because there is so much that we can learn from others who have a different vantage point in the same team, organization. So I'm so glad that you shared that example as well, because I see it here in my household on a daily basis.

That's really powerful. And by the way, Christopher is joining us is from Canada and is grateful for his wonderful family. Thank you, thank you so much, Christopher. So if you could choose 3 people to have dinner with, who would you choose and why? It could be dead, alive, or mythical figures.

Oh my goodness, well, you already mentioned one— Nelson Mandela. Um, as you were talking, I was thinking about the time that I visited his cell briefly on Robben Island when I was in South Africa. And when you think about the life that was lived, that might be not just a once in a generation example of leadership, but once in a century, once in a millennia, who knows. Um, just extraordinary, extraordinary. So Nelson Mandela. Um, I would love to have dinner with the Nottingham Forest squad. That's more than 3 people. That would be awesome. Um, who else? Who else? Let me think. Oh my gosh. Um, maybe with someone who would want to just spend some time with me. I just, I, I, I love connecting with new people. Um, I have an endless curiosity. Um, and so yes, a surprise. Third guest would be amazing. Yeah.

All right. So what have you read that we should read? And right away, I want to ask everybody to purchase a book, Prep, Push, and Pivot. And we already talked about the Audible book, Brand Yourself for Success, and also How to Change Careers. So what type of book would you recommend to my audience?

Oh my goodness. So there's a book that I think you dropped in the chat, which I come back to over and over and over and over again. And it's by Michael Bungay Stanier and it's called Do More Great Work. And I can't remember how I discovered his book. Um, oh, it's got the red cover, Do More Great Work. Um, I can't remember how I discovered it. Um, but it's brilliant if you feel stuck in some capacity and it might not be that you want to change jobs. It could be, you're just, ah, a little bit of resistance, or it could be that you're like— I know this happened with me after I wrote my first book. It was such a big goal for me. I was like, what am I going to do next? Like, I've been thinking about this forever. Now I've done it. What now? You could be at that end of the spectrum where you could be just like, oh, I'm a bit bored. Wherever you are on the spectrum, this book is just brilliant. It's, it's action-oriented and exercise and activity-oriented, and it gets you actually mapping out, um, ideas that you didn't even know might be in you because it asks just really smart questions. Um, and you can dip back into it whenever you need to. I, I read it probably every year without fail because it just gets me thinking, even though I've read it so many times. It's a gift that keeps giving because it just gets me thinking about things in a different way. Um, and I love that because there aren't that many people that will really stretch you, right? And so when you find a resource or a person that does that, oh my gosh, yes.

That is powerful. What about this, this book?

Oh my goodness. So it was really hard when you asked me about favorite books because I am a prolific reader and it would be impossible for me to just pick one. But one of the reasons why I love Matt Haig's book, The Midnight Library, is because of the parallels with the work that I've done as a coach. And often I find So I myself have experienced this, but so many people that I work with have a, what could happen if, or what could have been if. And we think and think and think about those crossroads moments where we could have gone in one direction, but we chose to go in the other, or what could have happened if we had said yes to that opportunity or no to that opportunity. And what I love about Matt's book is the protagonist Nora is just in such despair, but really unaware in the moment of how rich the life she is living is. And also the book shows there were endless possibilities for her. And as she start— without wanting to ruin it for anyone who hasn't read— as she explores, you know, what a number of those possibilities could have been. She uncovers layers and layers and layers, but ultimately those layers lead her back to a better understanding. Um, and I think applying that principle to ourselves and giving us grace if we feel that we messed up or that we did something wrong, to know actually who we are is multifaceted and multi-layered and we can't lose as long as we trust ourselves.

That's really powerful. And the last one you mentioned was better habits.

Yes, because, oh my gosh, I have so many habits that do not serve me well. And I think we all have that about certain things. We can be excellent at something and then, oh my gosh, something else is like a mess. And what I love about Stephanie's book Um, it's that she takes away any ideal scenarios. There's no judgment. There's no, oh, you should be doing this and this is why. She meets you where you are and she gets you to think about, okay, what isn't working? That's cool. Here are multiple ways you might want to think about that. It's not there's one prescriptive way and you do it this way. It's so, so brilliant. Um, it's on my— on the shelf behind me, if you can see the blue. I've got 2 copies on the shelf behind me. Um, it's, it's, it's just so good. Um, and so I recommend it to others with no judgment because I use it myself. Um, it's just, you know, we're all works in progress. Um, and I love the way it has just so many different ways you can look at the same situation and start test things that can really make a difference for you. I love it.

That's really powerful. And then last one, uh, YouTube channel.

Yes. So, um, Amanda Mazaroff is just spectacular, um, meditation and breathwork instructor. And our paths crossed. We were both at the same event, um, and we got talking, and we have been friends ever since. And Her instruction is just so powerful and taught me how to be really still in moments in my workday and how to think about how I breathe. No one had ever taught me that before. And I remember I was going into a very stressful meeting for FIRE Memos, and this figure— this, this meeting was going to be about an investment in my business. And I didn't know how that meeting was going to go, but I knew it was going to be you know, maybe a tough one. And I happened to go to a livestream she was doing beforehand, and I actually didn't know how long it was going to be. And I'm glad that it was long because, oh boy, did I need it. It recalibrated me completely, and it just made such a monumental shift. I went into that meeting, I was calm, I was present. The meeting was just fantastic. But my energy, my energy had changed, and our energy is so important. And so I discovered meditation, uh, a few years ago, um, in a period of really high stress. And I know now that when I miss the moments when I normally meditate, my day is not the same. And I think finding that intentionality and having someone with the warmth and wisdom that Amanda has on her channel, um, which is accessible to anybody via YouTube, is just such a gift. Um, so yes, that's why I recommended that.

Another lesson out of that too is, uh, there are a lot of things I think that are essential. They are important, but they are not urgent. There is no urgency to meditate, to pray, or to take time off or whatever. But many times, though, if you don't do that, eventually you are going to pay for it. But you're going to get sick over stress and whatever. So you really need to make time in your schedule for those few things that are important but not urgent, but you have to be urgent on your calendar daily.

It is so important. You know, my youngest daughter, her fourth grade teacher actually taught the class how to meditate, and I found out by chance. My daughter mentioned it. I was like so excited to hear that because I wish I had learned those skills when I was young. It would— oh my gosh.

Wow.

Yes, it would have been incredible.

I think we, we are past over now. Can you gimme 5 minutes before?

I absolutely can.

I'm gonna try to end this all day and all night. We don't need to bring this to a stop. I know you are super busy and I'm so grateful Octavia, that you are on the podcast today, learning so much from you and I really love your energy. So one thing I wanna ask you is, uh, if you had one day and only one day to live, what would you have liked your final contribution to be?

Oh, Um, I, I would— that's, gosh, that's such a big question. I, I feel like I actually have done a lot of the things that, uh, things that matter and important to me. And so if I had the opportunity to spend that day with my loved ones, then that, that's all I could possibly That's all I could possibly ask for. It's my— anything that could even be connected to me comes through me and my daughters and whatever they go on and do next. So yes, any time with them, it's an incredible day spent.

Let me ask you this then. When you wake up in the morning, is there a specific problem you would like to solve?

I'm endlessly curious. So while I'm not necessarily thinking it's a problem I want to solve, I'm often thinking, what can I learn today? I think that's why I love listening to podcasts so much, and I don't watch TV unless it's Nottingham Forest, because when I'm listening to a podcast, I always learn something. Always. And I listen to a podcast every single day. Um, so I love learning, and then I will try and apply it. Sometimes it's immediate. Um, that happened with me actually already today. I applied something that I heard on a podcast yesterday. I applied it this morning. Um, but then other times it's actually me just absorbing, um, and thinking. So if you'd have told me when I was at school that I'd be an endless student, I don't know if I'd have believed you, but I really am. I really am. And that's why I love being on LinkedIn actually. And that's how we connected. The reason I love being on LinkedIn is because I'm constantly learning. Every single time I log into that platform, I see something on that feed that teaches me something that I didn't know, and I love that.

That is really powerful. I don't want to put you on the spot, but if you can let us know some of the podcasts you listen to, I think we'd like to subscribe.

Oh yes, of course. Um, well, now we're putting— I'm gonna be listening to every episode that follows of the Leadership and Success podcast. Deepak Chopra has—

I love him—

so many audio resources, podcasts and audiobooks. They are my constant companions that I go to over and over again. But then also, because I'm testing new things in my work, I will often just into search a topic or something that I'm curious about and see what comes up, and I will listen to the episode for that. Um, so it's not always that I'm religiously going to someone's podcast. And the other thing that I do is when I listen to something and it's helpful to me, I might listen to it 3 times. So I'll go back and listen to it again and again and again. I bookmark it. Um, so it's It's not necessarily that I'm waiting for the newest episode to drop and then I'm listening to that new episode. It's that I'm thinking about what am I curious about today, going and searching, finding a conversation about it and listening to that conversation.

That is really, really powerful. I, that's actually better than naming a specific podcast because then people can find podcasts that will be tailored to what they are Yes, that's what I do.

That's what works for me. And then I love that I get an element of surprise because I get to learn about the host that maybe I didn't know before and the guest if they have one. And sometimes it's solo podcasts, um, but I always learn something.

That is, that is, that is really, really great. So if there was a song, a book, or a movie that would be your last theme or them, what would it be?

Song is really, really hard, um, but I did have the opportunity to see Stevie Wonder perform, um, and that was something that I am so grateful for, that I got to experience that, um, and that was just extraordinary, um, Did you say TV? Yeah. Um, I don't have a go-to TV show because I don't really watch a lot of TV, but over the summer, um, my daughter asked me if I would watch Building the Band with her. And so the three of us watched that. If anyone's unfamiliar, it was a Netflix, um, music show that, um, released over the summer. I thought that was incredible. Um, I— what I loved about it was the bands had to form without seeing one another and just hearing each other's voices. And then the team dynamics were really interesting in terms of how they were deciding who they would work with. And everyone was so talented, and it was just a reminder to me, especially in the work that I do, that you can be really talented, you might not get chosen, but that actually isn't the marker necessarily of success. Oh, hi Esther! Oh my goodness. Esther is here! Esther and I went to school together. Thank you so much for joining. I absolutely loved, loved, loved that show, and I haven't told my girls, but I've bought tickets to take them to see two of the acts that were on that show, so we're gonna be going to that as a surprise.

What's your favorite Stevie Wonder song? He has so many good songs.

Oh my goodness, as probably As, okay, um, but I don't tend to have favorites. I just love, yeah, just immersing myself.

But yes, my daughter got the degree in music from the APU last year. That's one of the things that she did. And thanks again for being on this show, uh, Esther. If you can let us know what you're grateful for, and if you have a question for, although we're going to be ending the podcast very, very soon. Okay, uh, that comes— we are coming to towards the end. So the question I have for you is, how can we add value back to you?

Oh my goodness. Well, you already have anyone that is watching, um, or joined or listening, because I love that. But if you are on LinkedIn, um, please do send me a connection request, or if we're already connected, just DM me and let me know that you listened. I love that. Um, so yeah, I love meeting new people So don't be shy about doing that. Please do reach out to me on LinkedIn.

I know this woman here. How did you meet her?

Oh my goodness. So I met Miss Oprah Winfrey last year. Um, I was invited to deliver a 2-hour workshop, um, at a conference that she hosted, a leadership and education conference, um, for the scholars that she supports going through, um, their college degrees. Um, and she bought 50 copies of Prep, Push, Pivot, my book, um, I think for the attendees there. And so it was just so extraordinary to meet her, especially because on her 60th birthday, which I think was about 12 years ago, I wrote an article about her impact, um, on Black British broadcasters in particular. And that article was published by The Guardian newspaper. And so it felt like a full circle moment to, as so many of us of course, to see her and look up to her as a role model, but to write about the impact of her work and interview broadcasters whose work she has impacted, and then to have the opportunity to support her program and then to meet her was just, yeah.

Tell us about Fire Memo and why people should subscribe to it.

Oh, so Fire Memos, um, is a newsletter that you can receive for free twice a week, um, On Mondays, we send out a newsletter that is really about starting your week off right and building that momentum and thinking about what you did that mattered the week prior and not just what you're adding to your to-do list, but actually having that moment to think. And then on Fridays, we go deeper and we think about how you can sustain that momentum. And we often invite a career expert, another career coach to answer a question from our community, like a tough question. Something that's hard, something that you're trying to navigate, something that you need help with to move forward. And we share a perspective on that and also actionable next steps that you can take. Um, and so yes, um, if you are invested in doing more and reaching for more and really recognizing your progress as you do so, please do subscribe to FIRE Memos.

Thank you.

Thanks so much for your time. I, I, I really I really do appreciate that. Um, before we close the show, is there any question I should have asked you that I haven't asked?

Oh my goodness, you asked such incredible questions. I, I can't think of anything additional, but thank you so much. I would like to say thank you to you because, you know, we met via LinkedIn. I was a stranger to you. We started talking in DM. You then extended this kindness this invitation to me. You've been so thoughtful in the questions that you've asked. I feel so, so, so honored to have had this opportunity to spend this hour with you. So thank you.

To land the plane, let me ask you the most important question of the show. If you could go back and give a piece of advice to your 17-year-old self— oh, it's incredible career you've had— what would you—

okay, so when I was 17, I was at school with one of the people watching, Esther Lys Caru, um, and I was so afraid. I was so afraid of making a mistake. I was so afraid of messing up my A-levels. I was so afraid of getting rejected from university applications. I was so afraid to pick a major that, you know, I was just so afraid. Um, and the advice that I would give to myself is You have everything you need.

Wow.

You have everything you need. Dream big.

That's powerful.

Pursue what excites you. That's what I would say.

That is very, very powerful. We could unpack that for a while. Thank you. Thanks so much. Okay. Really, really quickly then, uh, when you were a kid, what did What did you want to be when you grew up? I wanted to be an author.

But it took me a long, long way to get there. And I have to say this, I gave up on myself way, way, way before I should have.

So when is your next book going to be published?

I honestly don't know. What I do know are the things I want to write about in depth next. And that's, that's what I do know. And I should also caveat, when I was a kid, I didn't think I was going to be writing books that would be in the business section. I thought I was going to be writing fiction. I thought I was gonna be— so there's still room to, to, to pursue that. That would be another pivot, um, to do that. So I haven't achieved my childhood dream yet.

Just so many books in you. Next book you publish, please come back on the show. This is outstanding. 3 adjectives describing you as a kid.

Oh my goodness. Books, reading, obsessed with books, creative and curious.

What about as an adult?

Same.

Wonderful. So you are the same person. Perfect. Okay. And the final question after this, we are done. What is one word that will present our shared experience in this podcast today? What comes to mind?

Oh my goodness. This was joyous. Thank you.

Wow. I think for me, I am just so grateful. Thank you so much for giving us your time and teaching us today. You've been an outstanding, insightful teacher. Thank you so much, Octavia.

I really appreciate it. Oh, thank you for the invitation and making the space for this. And thank you to everybody who joined us.

All right. Thank you so much, Octavia. Bye-bye. Well, everyone, this is it. Like I promised you, Octavia is just a game changer, so make sure to to follow her, right? Octavia Gorodema on LinkedIn. Go and sign up for our newsletter via Memo. And thanks again for being with us today. And I'm going to be back tomorrow for a 10-minute AI recap, one of the interviews I had last week. I think tomorrow we're going to be talking about Coach Houston from Tuscaloosa, Alabama. Roll Tide!

Tidro.

We had our conversation last week and we're going to have a 10-minute recap of that tomorrow. So until tomorrow, have a wonderful day. Hold on. Crystal says, Bob Fabien Zinga, thank you for creating opportunity like this that shift and grow critical thinking and learning. Thank you so much, Crystal. I really do appreciate that. And if you have a question for Octavia, you can still type it in the comment because I'm going to have a 10-minute recap from Octavia too, and I can get her to answer your question. And Crystal says, I love listening to your perspective and advice. Octavia is just great. And thanks again, everyone, and I'll see you, uh, here on the Leadership and Success Podcast tomorrow. Bye-bye, everybody. This is Coach BZ. Thanks for watching. Until next time, don't forget to like, comment, and share.

Thank you for listening to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If you like what you heard, please subscribe to our channels and come back for more wisdom nuggets on how you may develop into a better leader and achieve greater levels of success. Leadership is the most critical skill. The world will always need leaders to lead others, deploy the next disruptive technology, or execute a business strategy. You may as well decide on counting yourself among the 21st century leaders. See you right here next time on the