S4:E91AI RECAP 🎙️LIVE with Professor Amira Barger (Multi Tracks Audio)

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If you have nothing nice to say, I hope you have the nerve to say it anyway. It'd be a lie if I told you that being nice has never protected us. It has. It has kept many of us safe. Served as a shield, a strategy, a way to survive. But it has never set any of us free. It has protected the status quo, the comfort of the powerful, the silence of the oppressed. The opposite of nice isn't mean. It's not rude. It's not even kind. It's nerve. Nerve to speak up when silence feels safer. Nerve to take up space you were taught to shrink in. We need to name what we're up against. Constructs. Constructs are built by people. Me, you, us. They're made-up rules dressed up in tradition. They are not sacred, not natural, not neutral, not forever. Their purpose isn't preordained. Their impact isn't inevitable. It's design, and anything designed can be dismantled. And niceness? Niceness is the mask we're told to wear when our truth is too loud. It asks us to bite our tongues until they bleed and then smile like it didn't hurt. To swallow rage and call it grace. To laugh it off when we're breaking inside. To nod, to sit sit still to be sweet, even when our spirit is screaming. I wrote The Price of Nice because I'm tired of being told to be palatable instead of powerful. It costs nothing to be nice. It's said like gospel. It's one of the greatest travesties of logic. It costs many of us everything—our truth, our dignity, our voice to sit pretty, stay silent, and play nice while the world plays us. The stakes are too high. We weren't made to fit molds. We were made to shatter them, to name truths they spent lifetimes trying to bury, to become the stories they tried to silence, to upend what no longer serves us. It's not your job to shapeshift into something safe for others. You didn't, I didn't rise from wreckage just to be buried in new ways. So I dare you, have a little more nerve today, tomorrow, every day after that. Power doesn't move for nice people. It moves when someone with the nerve demands that it does so.

So now the second segment of the show. What do you think is the most important lesson you've ever learned?

Ever?

Wow.

No one's ever asked me that question.

Good. Or one of the, maybe the greatest lesson you have learned?

Yeah, well, I think it's that everything is constructed, and I think that's important because, and it takes me back to the book, how I write about how nice is a social construct. And what is a social construct? It's literally a made-up rule. Think about borders. What are borders? Imaginary lines we drew in the ground. Time, what is time? Money, what is money? Race, these are all made up rules. They're not inherently or empirically true. We make them up and we collectively agreed to them as the rules that we live by. And if something can be constructed, it can also be deconstructed, which is why I wrote a whole book about nice because we need to deconstruct it. And that's what I've been doing the last 20 years from deconstructing my obsession with being the nice girl to my faith, even to my beliefs about justice and the world and the workplace. If something can be constructed, it can be deconstructed. And those micro actions that I'm taking and hopefully giving others the blueprint for and the permission for, they build the momentum that we need to deconstruct and to build something great.

Yeah, I think I'm just grateful. I'm so grateful that you are here, Professor Amira Barjot. Thank you so much for being here and teaching us today. This has been really wonderful. Thank you. Cheers. Thank you. All right, everyone, this was a great, great, great podcast. I hope you— All right, this is Uncoach Bizzy. Today we are going to have a 10-minute AI recap of the hour-long leadership conversation I had with Professor Amira Boudra. And before we get to it, I'm being reminded, let's do our moment of gratitude, as is our custom on the show. So that's where we just take a moment, less than a minute, to just be grateful for one thing. So if you would, put yourself in your happy place, close your eyes if you can, and think about one thing you are grateful for today. I think today I am really grateful that I have enough food in my house to feed my family. That sounds so small, but the truth is there are millions of children in America today who might be going hungry with this government shutdown. And for the life of me, I really can't believe I live in America, the greatest country in the world, because I'm originally from Africa where I have seen kids, people in my neighborhood pretty much, you know, dying of hunger. And I can't believe that today it's possible for the greatest country, the wealthiest country in the world, to have our children go hungry at night. That's just unacceptable. But anyway, I am grateful that my kids are okay and we can eat today. So let us know what you are grateful for and type it in the chat and also let us know where you are joining us from, what city, what state, and if you're outside of the US, what country. And while you listen to the AI Recap, I want you to think about 2 to 3 takeaways from this episode. Please post them in the comment. And also, if you have a leadership question for me, please type it in the comment as well. I also appreciate it if you tag someone, a teammate, a mentor, or a mentee who you believe needs a dose of courageous leadership, someone who needs to listen to this episode. So I do appreciate that. So we're gonna get started by listening to a 5-minute review of the hour-long conversation I had with Professor Amira Boudra. And after that, we are going to have the 10-minute AI recap made by my AI agent. Here we go.

You know, we're all taught that being nice is a big part of being a good leader, right? But what if, what if that's totally wrong? Today, we're digging into the work of Professor Amira Barger, who argues our obsession with nice might be the very thing holding us and our teams back. And this quote right here gets to the absolute heart of her argument: "Nice doesn't dismantle inequity. Courage does." What she's saying is that by always prioritizing comfort, by always trying to avoid friction, we might actually be preventing any real, meaningful change from ever taking root. So this slide really breaks it down for us. On one side, you've got Nice. It's all about keeping the peace, avoiding conflict, and valuing comfort. But on the other side, you have Nerve. And that's about driving transformation, embracing discomfort, and valuing progress. That's the choice Barger puts in front of us. So, okay, let's really dig into the cost. Because according to Professor Barger, this obsession we have with being nice, it isn't free. Nope. It actually comes at a super high price. And a huge part of the problem, she says, is that we've just kind of inherited these ideas about niceness without ever really stopping to question them. They come from the stories we've been told are our entire lives. Just take a look at these classic stories she uses as examples. She says, "The Giving Tree? It's not a beautiful story about generosity; it's a masterclass in toxic self-sacrifice." Oof! And Goldilocks? Forget the innocent lost girl; she's a trespasser and a thief. Barger believes these stories subtly teach us to just accept bad behavior to keep things comfortable. Alright, so if nice is the problem, what's the solution? Well, for Barger, the antidote is really clear. And the best part is, she gives us a practical framework for putting it into action. And listen, this next part is so, so important. She's not telling us to be mean. That's not the point at all. The opposite of nice isn't cruelty; it's nerve. It's about finding the courage to act and speak the truth, especially when it feels uncomfortable. And here it is, her 4-step cycle for making real change. First, you think. You actually challenge those beliefs you've inherited. Then you feel. You connect with real empathy, not just your own ego. That feeling then pushes you to do something, to take action, even if it's not perfect. And finally, you revisit. You look back, reflect on what happened, and figure out how to do it better next time. And here's the thing, right? This is not some one-and-done checklist. That's the crucial point. Real, lasting change is a cycle. As she says, progress needs constant maintenance. You have to keep practicing, think, feel, do, and revisit—over and over again. Okay, so what does this actually look like in our everyday lives? I mean, how do we practice Nerve? The good news is, it's not about these grand, heroic gestures. It's built through small, consistent choices. Barger stresses that you can start small. She calls them micro-actions. You don't have to jump in the deep end. You can just start with these tiny little acts of courage, and each one builds momentum for the next one. Here's a perfect example. Think about your next meeting. We've all been there, right? The meeting's wrapping up, and there's that one question nagging at you, but you stay quiet. Well, practicing Nerve could be as simple as just asking that one extra question. Or how about this one? Happens all the time. A colleague is trying to make a point, someone interrupts them, and boom, the conversation just moves on. The act of Nerve here is so simple, but it's huge. You just step in and say, "Hey, I think Sarah was still finishing her thought. You just back them up. Ah, and this one is so common. You're in a meeting, someone says the hard thing, and you're thinking, yes, exactly. But you only tell them that in the hallway afterward. Bargainers' challenge is to find the nerve to say, I agree, right there in the room where it really, really counts. You know, to really get this idea of nerve, we have to pull apart two words we often confuse: nice and kind. And Barger uses this fantastic story to make the difference totally clear. Okay, check this out. Imagine you're freezing, you forgot your jacket. The nice person, the Californian in her story, walks by and says, "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry you're cold," and just keeps on walking. But the kind person, the New Yorker, might look at you and say, "You're a fool for forgetting your jacket," and then they take their own jacket off and give it to you. See the difference? Kindness isn't always smooth, but it's about action. It actually solves the problem. You've heard that saying, "It's lonely at the top," right? Well, this next quote just flips that whole idea on its head. Bader says, "If it's lonely at the top, you're not really leading; you're just isolated. True leadership is about connection, not loneliness." And that brings us to our final and maybe most important section: what happens when we don't choose NERF? What are the consequences of choosing comfort over courage? What's the real cost of our silence? The big takeaway here is this: Silence is never neutral. It's not a passive choice. It's an active one. And man, is it expensive. For you, for your team, for your whole organization. So what are we actually paying with our silence? Well, first, you lose trust because people see problems just getting ignored. Then you lose innovation because new ideas are too scary to voice. You damage that sense of belonging, and ultimately, you're costing everyone, including yourself, the chance to reach their full potential. And look, this isn't just some academic theory for Berger. This is personal. She talks about being on a team that completely failed because everyone was too nice to call out a CEO's bad decisions. That failure is what made this lesson so real for her, and it's the foundation of her entire philosophy. And so we're gonna end by turning that question back to you. It's something for all of us to think about, right? In our own lives, at our own jobs. What are you not saying? What conversations are you avoiding just to be nice? And really, what is the price of your silence?

Welcome everyone, today we're diving, um, into a powerful discussion on leadership that asks a bold question: Does nice really lead to progress? Uh-huh. Right, because Professor Amira Barjer argues that "nice," as in keeping everyone comfortable, isn't what dismantles inequity.

It's real courage, or as she puts it, "nerve." Absolutely. And that idea, "nice doesn't dismantle inequity, courage does," really packs a punch, doesn't it?

Yep, exactly. So, think about it. When leaders choose comfort over truth, it's like, um, they're building on shaky ground. Taking risks and speaking up, even when it stings, is what pushes real change.

Mm-hmm. And her philosophy isn't just theoretical, it's deeply personal too. I mean, she grew up in Guam, in a family of ministers, where healthy, equitable service was a necessity rather than just an option. Right.

And that's where her story gets so compelling. The whole journey from a small, underserved community to becoming an influential voice, in both the military and tech sectors. Yep. And it's interesting how she contrasts the tradition of being nice with the need to be courageous. You know, it's like she's saying, don't mistake quiet compliance for strength.

Totally. That reminds me, she uses everyday examples, like in meetings, it's those micro-actions, like asking one extra question or backing someone up publicly that, um, build the momentum of nerve.

Yes, exactly. She's not saying the antithesis of nice is being mean. It's about tapping into nerve, that little extra bit of courage that redefines how we approach leadership. And this isn't just for polished boardrooms. It's a call to action for military officers, tech professionals, even community leaders. Mm-hmm.

It's almost like she's challenging all the norms. I mean, look at her discussion on diversity. She redefines it as reality, saying diversity is not just a quota or a checkbox. It's about behavioral accountability.

Right. I— precisely. When she speaks of diversity, she's basically challenging us to reflect on whether our actions truly embody our values. It's not just about saying we support everyone, but creating systems that bring about real inclusion.

And that ties in so neatly with her idea of translating values into behavior. It's one thing to have corporate values listed on a wall, but if those values aren't lived out, like in meetings where someone always must, um, ask a new question, that's just empty rhetoric. Exactly.

It's like having a slogan without a game plan. And, uh, she even talks about storytelling. Yes, storytelling. How the narratives we choose can build or barricade change. True. Yep, think about it. Stories shape not just opinions but systems. When leaders reframe the narrative, they're practically rewriting the rules of engagement.

That's powerful. And isn't it interesting how she contrasts kinds of kindness? Like that analogy of the Californian versus the New Yorker, where one just apologizes and walks on, and the other actually takes action by sharing their jacket.

Absolutely. Uh, yes, that story, it really hits home. It's saying that kind of leadership isn't just about empathy but about acting, even if it's a bit uncomfortable. It's a call for courageous communication, where you deliver hard truths with care, rather than hiding behind politeness.

Right on. And speaking of delivering hard truths, She points out that leadership is not about avoiding discomfort. It's about embracing it as fuel for real change. If you constantly stay in your comfort zone, you're not really growing.

Yeah, exactly. Now, what do you make of her framework? Think, feel, do, and revisit. How does that resonate from a practical standpoint?

I really like that cyclical approach. It's not a one-and-done deal. It's A continuous process of evaluation and adaptation. You think, you feel the impact, you act on it, even if imperfectly, and then you revisit to refine further. It's like progress is never linear. Right, right.

That's an important reminder for leaders. Progress is built in layers. Each small act of nerve, like breaking the silence in a high-stakes meeting, can cascade into systemic change over time.

And honestly, it kind of flips the script on what we often expect at the top. Leadership, according to her, isn't about isolation at the pinnacle. If it's lonely at the top, you're doing it wrong.

That's a strong statement. Yes, because true leadership builds communities. It's about working with others, fostering trust, and creating a sense of partnership, not just a hierarchy where orders flow one way. And that community aspect is inseparable from servant leadership. Her idea is that every person contributes, like laying bricks to build a strong foundation, rather than ruling over them.

True. And that builds resilience. One thing I find intriguing is her reflection on failure. She openly shares that playing nice sometimes leads to silence, And that silence can be really costly, costing trust, innovation, and even, you know, collective potential. Exactly.

And that's where she says failure makes lessons durable. It's like you learn by failing forward. You extract the learning patterns from every setback to refine your leadership style. I really appreciate that perspective.

Failure isn't something to hide. It's a formative tool to build better strategies moving forward.

Yeah. Another compelling lesson is her idea of deconstructing systems. She reminds us that everything—borders, money, race—is constructed. And if it can be constructed, it can be deconstructed and rebuilt.

That's a radical yet hopeful approach. Right.

It's a rallying cry to challenge the status quo and rebuild on a foundation of equity and shared purpose. It's a bit like re-engineering an old car. You keep the best parts, but you totally renovate the engine for better performance.

And speaking of building, her thoughts on courageous communication are deep. Telling the truth with care may not come across as smooth, but it's precisely in that raw honesty that progress is made. Mm-hmm.

That's right. Exactly. And the way she uses analogies, comparing leadership approaches in different parts of the country, really helps illustrate that sometimes action matters more than just feeling empathetic.

Now, here's something that got me thinking. Her critique of comfort as a trap. I mean, does this mean being supportive and empathetic is less valuable?

Well, not exactly less valuable, but she draws a distinction between passive comfort and active courage. Correct. It's not about being antagonistic or harsh. It's about having the nerve to motivate real change. It's like saying, I care enough to push boundaries and challenge the norms. Yeah, that's a fair point. And let's not overlook her emphasis on mentorship and community. She credits mentors, trusted colleagues, and friends for her success. It's a powerful reminder that no leader truly makes it on their own.

Right, because community isn't just about personal gain. It's about collective advancement. Every supportive interaction builds the scaffolding for future success.

Exactly. And then there's her hope as a discipline. She states that hope isn't naive. It's something you practice daily. That struck me as, um, a call to maintain resilience even in the face of challenging change. Mm-hmm.

It's like treating hope as both a mindset and an action plan. You intentionally foster it until it becomes embedded in your everyday leadership.

And finally, her striking final thought on silence. That silence comes at a high price. When you choose not to speak up, you, uh, let opportunities slip away and allow inequity to persist.

Exactly. In every context, whether it's a tech boardroom or a military command, choosing courage over comfort is, well, the key to transformative leadership. Right, absolutely.

So, to wrap it up, what's our takeaway? It's that leadership demands a balance. Challenging traditional niceness, practicing those micro-moments of nerve, translating values into actionable behaviors, and nurturing a community that supports courageous communication.

And that's really the essence of, um, Professor Bajer's vision. Leadership as a craft that blends honesty, service, and a willingness to revolutionize systems.

Yep, nailed it. Whether you're stepping into a military command, heading up a tech startup, or leading in any capacity, Remember that comfort may feel safe, but it's courage that propels change. It's about leaving people and places better than you found them. Mm-hmm.

And it sounds like if we practice nerve in our micro-actions, we not only transform ourselves but also inspire those around us to, um, be brave and authentic. Exactly right.

And that's our charge—to continuously challenge inherited narratives by thinking, feeling, doing, and revisiting our actions. That's how we can, bit by bit, dismantle inequity and build inclusive, resilient communities. I love that.

It's a reminder that leadership is an evolving journey, one that demands both action and reflection. And there's so much depth in understanding that great leadership isn't lonely when done right. Absolutely.

It's all about partnership. So for all of you listening, whether in boardrooms, on battlefields, or wherever you lead, Dare to speak up, dare to act with nerve, and remember, real progress is built on the courage to challenge comfort.

Well said. Thanks for joining this deep dive into leadership lessons that truly matter. Stay courageous and keep leading with integrity.

All right, that was, uh, The Price of Nice, and I encourage everyone to go ahead and watch the full episode. So that's Season 4, Episode 91, live with Professor Amira Boudjer. Also, I want to let you guys know that tomorrow I will have a 10-minute AI recap with the conversation I had with Carson V. Eady, best-selling author, managing director at Microsoft, and sales hall of fame. Salesman on Fire is his brand. Meet me tomorrow around the same time. Then on Monday, I will have the honor and the pleasure of speaking with the one and only Dr. Marjorie James from Rhode Island. She's a president, founder, speaker, consultant, and coach. We're going to be talking about purpose, power, and potential. And then, next Friday, this coming Friday, I will have a great honor of interviewing General Glen VanHerck, US Air Force retired. He's a former commander for NORAD and US NORTHCOM. We're going to be talking about AI, drones, decision space, and it is going to be a lot of fun. So join me there. We're going to be live on LinkedIn and on YouTube. So I don't see any questions on LinkedIn or YouTube, but I do want to acknowledge Michelle Ryder. Thank you so much for watching. She said, great job, Amira. I am here for micro action. Yes. And again, I want everybody to please go ahead and purchase the book. The Price of Nice: Why Comfort Keeps Us Stuck and 4 Actions for Real Change. And I also would like for everyone, if you are not already, to please follow Professor Amira Barger on LinkedIn, linkedin.com/amirabarger. All right, this is it for today, and thanks again for watching. I'm gonna play one more highlight from the hour-long leadership discussion I had with Professor Barger. And after that, I will see you tomorrow. Thanks again for being here.

Bye. Michelle MiJung Kim, she has a book called The Wake Up, and it's one of those books that every time I pick it up, I learn something different from it. So that's a great read. She's an amazing facilitator, consultant, and activist also in, in the world outside of corporate spaces. This one doesn't need any introduction. No, everyone knows Noam Chomsky. He wrote with Edward Herman the book Manufacturing Consent, which is up here, so that's why I'm looking over there. I talk a lot in the world of communications about propaganda and manufactured consent, and this book was really transformative for me around mass media and moving people at scale and what it means to behave in advance and fall into the trap of compliance from the powers that be. So it's a good thinking book. It'll make you think.

It's thick, quite, quite, quite timely.

And finally, this one, Mariam Kaba, who said hope is a practice or discipline. Hope is a discipline. That's where I learned that from, because I think in corporate America, many of us have heard the quip saying, you know, hope is not a strategy. And I also reject that. But Miriam talks about it as a discipline. Hope is a discipline, something that requires action that we must practice. And it has use and it has purpose. And I think too many people—

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century. Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.