S4E16🎙️ Live with Lisa Fain

Hi, I'm John Maxwell. When the top companies in the world are looking for trainers, speakers, and coaches, there's one name that stands above the rest, and that's Maxwell Leadership. Our certified team members have gotten proven results for companies all over the globe, and our reputation, I'm proud to say, is second to none. Some of our members have risen to the top of their profession, including the one you're going to meet today. I proudly introduce you to my friend Bob Fabien Zinga.

Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ, where we help you lead with purpose and succeed with impact. If you're ready to grow into the kind of leader others want to follow, this podcast is for you. If you're determined to elevate your success and leave a lasting legacy, this podcast is for you. As my mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell reminds us, everything rises and falls on leadership. Our goal is simple, to inspire you, challenge you, and equip you with insights that can transform the trajectory of your leadership journey. Welcome aboard to another episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast with Coach B.

When you experience mentoring, you'll engage in a relationship that's focused on developing a mentee's skills, knowledge, or ability towards achieving their goals. It's always important to have leaders who believe in inclusion. It's always important to have programs that make sure that everybody get involved. But what's really going to create change, what's really going to make a difference and affect inclusion in the workplace, is those one-on-one relationships where you create understanding and you create connection. And you build bridges for learning and development.

So the first question to ask yourself is, what is it that you are hoping to achieve when you implemented your mentoring program in the first place? In other words, what is the organization's or your program's interest in rolling out mentoring? Tone at the top is super important. Having the right training is super important. But what really makes a difference in the workplace and is going to move the needle on creating an inclusive work environment is when you have real relationships across some element of difference. If we don't take the time to reflect on who we are and what we bring with us to mentoring, we risk having inauthentic mentoring relationships.

The first step in a mentoring relationship is not getting to know your mentoring partner.

What is it?

It's getting to know yourself. When everyone takes accountability for creating inclusive relationships in the workplace, The result will be transformational. The mentor is responsible for the investing in the mentee's growth, for co-creating the relationship with the mentee. If you'd like to create inclusion in the workplace, I invite you: finish the book, step out of the training room, find a mentee, find a mentor, be a mentee, be a mentor. That's the way to the land of inclusion. That's the way it works.

All right, everyone, welcome to another edition of the Leadership and Success Podcast. We have a very, very special guest today. I am so excited to speak with her. We've been trying to get her here for, I think, at least 2 or 3 months now. She's definitely a mentor architect, right? I believe she's the number one mentorship expert in America, maybe in the globe. So we are really excited. She's here, Lisa Finn. Mentoring architect who builds inclusive culture by creating intentional human-centered connection. She's a global keynote speaker, executive coach, author, and mentoring expert, and the CEO of the Center for Mentoring Excellence. I wonder if there's anything she hasn't accomplished yet, anything she doesn't do. She's just fabulous. Former employment attorney and corporate diversity and inclusion leader who now helps organizations and leaders turn mentoring into a strategic advantage, building inclusive culture, stronger leader and better business outcome. She's also, I wonder if she even has time to sleep at night, the co-author of two bestselling books, Bridging Differences for Better Mentoring and The Mentor's Guide: Facilitating Effective Learning Relationships. She also has a really hot TEDx talk about mentorship everybody needs to listen about. So if you care about leadership, mentoring, and inclusion and human connection that actually works, this is a must-attend conversation. Ladies and gentlemen, please help me welcome the one who doesn't need to be introduced, Lisa Fain, to the Leadership and Success Podcast. All right, Lisa.

Thank you so much, I think I'm gonna hire you as my hype guy. That was, that was great. Thank you.

What a great honor and privilege to speak with you. Now I know we only have 1 hour, so I'm gonna try, uh, to keep an eye on the clock, but also watch for any interaction we get from the live audience on LinkedIn and YouTube. So just to get started, what are you grateful for today?

Well, I'm super grateful to be here. I am actually at the moment particularly grateful. We had— I'm part of the International Mentoring Association, and we had a great first webinar for National Mentoring Month this morning, and there were so many people in various parts of the mentoring community, adding their perspective, expanding the way I'm thinking. My head is full of great ideas and just so much great stuff around the passion of mentoring and the great people who are doing the work on the ground. So particularly grateful for that at the moment.

That is really great. And we are so grateful for all of the work you do because you definitely add a lot of value. And to me, mentorship is definitely a master key to success. I don't think I would be who I am today if I didn't have great mentors. And some of them may not even know me. I just adopt them, right? Reading their books, their work. And it's just incredible how you can read a book that costs you, I don't know, $20, $30 and get wisdom from somebody who's lived 30, 50, 60 years and really telling you what worked, what didn't work. And it's just such a wonderful privilege. So Maybe to get started, can you tell our audience maybe something about you that most people may not know about?

I'm going to let you in on a secret then, Bizzy, which is although I love the outdoors and I love to hike, I cannot ride a bicycle. I have a very poor sense of balance. And so someday I'm going to get back on the bike. When people say it's as easy as riding a bike, it's never that easy for me. That's not the analogy that you want to use. With me. But someday I'll learn to ride a bike. But here I am, well into my 50s, and it's not within my core skills, skill set.

Wow, that— yeah, that, that is, uh, uh, surprising. My issue was learning how to drive because I came to the US, I was 17 years old. In my own country, they don't trust you with a wheel unless you're 18 or older. So, uh, being 17 years old in America, nobody could teach me. So it was a real, real challenge. I remember the very first time I tried to take the driving test. I mean, I think I gave a heart attack to the lady who was supposed to rate me. But anyway, I eventually learned, but I was almost, I had the mindset, okay, maybe driving is not for me. I would just take, no, we didn't have Ubers back then, but maybe have a chauffeur or something, take taxis for the rest of my life. But yeah, but eventually I did learn. It's not as easy as riding a bike, but You get the hang of it anyway. So, uh, let me, let me start with, with this. You often talk about living out loud, and I really love that about you. What does that mean to you today? And how has that definition kind of evolved over your career?

Yeah, it really has evolved. So it comes from a quote, um, by Émile Zola. Um, if you ask me what I came into the world to do, I will tell you I came to live out loud. And I remember somebody actually gave that to me as a greeting card for a birthday when I was a teenager. It resonated, but I wasn't sure how it resonated. I think part of it is, to me, I think at least what it means now for me is that recognizing that I'm part of a broader world, that I have a voice to add. It's important to have a reasoned perspective, to think about things deeply, and then to, if those those thoughts and that perspective will make a difference to do that. The corollary for that, kind of my two mottos are live out loud and leave it better. And in order to have those two things come together, it really is about thinking about the broader world, how to make an impact, knowing myself and knowing what's important, and then coming into my own voice and sharing that.

Wow, that is really, really Powerful. I think it also shows such awareness of emotional intelligence, which is something I think we need more and more, especially these days. And you said it kind of started when you were a teenager. What did living out loud look like back then? And I'm assuming it was probably harder and riskier back then than it is today.

Yeah, I don't think I knew. I think part of the issue, BZ, is that I didn't know, or I didn't think I knew what it meant then. I grew up in Syracuse, New York, which was a great place to grow up, but it was small for me and it felt small for me. I felt very— I mean, the word that comes to mind at the moment is pregnant. Of course, I don't mean pregnant in the traditional sense. I just meant full of ideas and hopes and ambition, and I didn't feel like there was an avenue to do that then. So it was about— I think, okay, I'm synthesizing as you're asking me the question. Living out loud then meant discovering, having self-reflection, getting to know myself, trying things on, ideas on, roles on, perspectives on. It meant travel for me. I mean, travel was a really big thing for me as a kid. I traveled more internationally before I was 21 than I have since. And it really shaped who I am as a human and what my perspective in the world is. So I think living out loud was about discovery then. And now, of course, you can only spend the time discovering for so long until you start really taking action and learn to experiment.

Well, because when I look at your career, you've definitely taken some serious risks and tried things that most people haven't tried before. Like for example, you are, I guess, a recovering attorney, employment attorney, and you had a very successful legal career and all of a sudden you are into this mentorship industry. What was the moment you realized, no, this isn't enough, no, I meant for more?

Impact?

I think first I realized I was meant for a different impact. And I'll tell you, I know exactly the moment where— I had a feeling in my gut for a while that I wasn't in the right place. And when I went to law school initially, I went thinking that I would go into the public interest. And what I was so naive about, the financial implication of graduating from law school with six figures. In Dan in my 20s and went into a large law firm. I worked in a great place with a lot of great people, but it never— I always felt like a square peg in a round hole. You know, I was, I was a decent attorney. I probably wasn't the best attorney, but I was good enough. And there were some amazing people around me, but it required a lot of hours. And I had young children at home, and I felt for a while that I couldn't be the kind of mother that I wanted to be. I had an amazing childcare. We had a woman who worked for us who was very much part of our family, who we loved deeply and who loved my children. But I felt the pull of having to be at the office. And there was a moment that was really probably the— I call it kind of the best worst gift or the worst best gift I ever got, which I was working late. I had to pull an overnight. Reviewing some documents. I was in court the day before. I was still— it was breakfast time and I had been in my office all night. I was still in my suit from being in court the day before. I went downstairs to get breakfast and I came back up and there was a red light on my office phone, which was a voicemail from my then 4-year-old daughter Talia. She had speed dialed mommy at the office and she left a message that said, Mommy, where are you? You have to come home. We need a mommy, not a lawyer.

Wow.

And I shut the door to my office and I ugly cried loudly and sobbingly and realized that I was not living my values. And I had done a kind of a half-hearted job search for a bit, but I put it into full gear then and moved into a job as an in-house attorney that gave me more balance, a little bit more soul satisfaction. And the ability to be home more. And, you know, that was a really important lesson to me, Bizzy, because I'm very— I've always been very career-oriented and very ambitious in terms of my professional life. And it was really the moment where I realized that that wasn't what mattered most.

Hmm.

Man, that is quite inspiring. Now, I know many leaders listening right now may feel that inner voice. But tend to ignore it. What kind of helped you really listen and more importantly, take action?

My 4-year-old telling me that I wasn't being the kind of mother that she wanted. And what a gift, really. Like they say, out of the mouth of babes. She— what a gift.

I knew.

I mean, it was small things. And I guess if I hadn't already had the gut feeling that I wasn't doing the right thing, maybe that would have just been a moment that you laugh it off and you say, oh, kids. And what have you. But I knew that I was in a really unique position to influence these young women, the young girls then that I raised. And I just couldn't— I knew in my soul I couldn't shake that off. It just weighed on me so heavily that it was just a wake-up call.

Wow, that is so powerful. Like I said in the intro, I believe you are the number one mentoring expert in America. You have these two best-selling books and you even have a lot of webinars that you just allow anybody to join in for free. I think you are a little bit crazy, but it's really wonderful just the impact you have. So one thing you've said is mentoring isn't just a program, right? It's a strategy. What does that mean in practice for organization?

Yeah. So a lot of organizations will say, oh, we need a mentoring program. And what should we do? And I don't have a prescription pad for one mentoring, one solution, if you will, because mentoring isn't a solution in and of itself. Mentoring is a vehicle to achieving something else in the workplace, whether— so it's important, what are the people goals of the organization? What are the business goals of the organization? What are the learning goals of organization. We can design a mentoring initiative that will help you get there. But it must be bespoke, right? It must be bespoke because you want to be thinking about who's participating and what competencies you're building and how you're measuring it and what success looks like. So it's really a strategy to something greater. And the beauty of it is you'll get what you're looking for and more. If you know what it is you're looking for. If you are just standing up a mentoring program because you think mentoring is a great thing, you're not going to yield the result, the same results that you want, because you're not really tailoring it to what the outcomes and the priorities of the organization are.

Wow, that is so— I mean, it's so simple and so practical. But yeah, because I've been in some organizations where mentoring for them is just kind of like a checklist. Everybody needs to have a mentor, they kind of force it. But there is really no attraction or affinity between the mentor and the mentee. And I think that's the problem, isn't it?

It is.

And it is and it isn't. And here's what I mean by that. It is important to have some affinity or some chemistry. But that's not the basis of success. And I wish I had a nickel for every mentor or mentee who have called me or reached out and said, it's not working. We need to be reassigned, or how do I break up with my mentor or my mentee? And we've been able through coaching to help them build the competency to get the relationship on track. Because ultimately, if success rests on chemistry, then mentoring isn't about learning. And we know that learning is the purpose and the process and the product of mentoring. So teaching And building the capacity to not just repair, but create and deepen a relationship that might not have initial chemistry through curiosity, through emotional intelligence, which you and I talked about just prior to this call, and through kind of this cultural competency. The beauty of that is it's not just something that improves the mentoring relationship itself. It has a ripple effect outside of the mentoring relationship to organizations as a whole. And it's really a beautiful thing when you start to see that extend beyond mentoring.

That is so true. But what about some leaders? And I think those people really don't realize what they're saying, but they would say some things like, "No, we don't have time for mentoring." What's the real cost of not mentoring the next generation?

Yeah. Oh my goodness. Well, there's huge costs, right? So part of it that I think is really significant— there's so many things that come to mind when you ask that. Is I have a colleague and friend in the leadership space named Bev Kay, and she wrote a book called Help Them Grow or Watch Them Go. And I think that that synthesizes my answer to your question. But particularly so when you think about, I'm a Gen Xer, and my generation and older had different expectations and different needs in terms of development in the workplace. Place. The millennial generation, Gen Z behind it, and then who knows what Gen Alpha is going to be demanding, but I imagine it'll be more of the same, have not just an expectation of mentoring. Some lament it, but I have to say, lament it or don't lament it, it is the reality. And if you want to attract top talent, what a beautiful thing that they want to learn and grow and accelerate faster. So if you don't have mentoring in your organization, not only are you going to have institutional knowledge that's walking out the door, you're going to preclude yourself from getting and keeping top talent and limit your possibilities for innovation. I mean, one of the most exciting things to me about mentoring is you don't know what you don't know. And I know— I would suspect, BZ, that this is as true for you as it is for me, that the more that I talk to people the more new ideas and connection points that I make between ideas. And it's so powerful in the mentoring context. When mentoring is done right, it really does expand this field of possibility. So organizations are missing out on innovation and they're missing out on evolving at the same pace if they're missing out on mentoring. And one final piece to that, which is I, and I'm thinking a lot more about this recently in response to a question that a client asked. But there are a lot of organizations that say we don't have time for mentoring people who are already overburdened. And what I say to that is the beauty of mentoring is that it helps combat overwhelm. It helps provide a place where individuals can prioritize, they can synthesize, they can accelerate their growth to combat overwhelm. And it becomes— it's not just another thing, but it's really a tool to deal with all the things that are on your plate.

So that is, that is quite powerful because when you have a mentoring program and it works, that's really beautiful to see because I think the return on investment is just unbelievable. But what do you think are some of the most common mistakes leaders make when they try to launch a mentoring initiative?

Yeah. So the first we talked about, which is trying to just stand up a program for the sake of standing up a program. The next is what I call pair and pray, which is where they pair people and just sort of pray that it succeeds without the institutional support, the capability building. Just because somebody became So just because somebody is a great leader doesn't mean that they are naturally a great mentor. And in fact, mentoring is— my mom used to say that mentoring is the most promiscuously used word in leadership development. People think they're mentoring, but it's often something else. So really building that skill and making sure that your mentors and your mentees know how to contribute to the relationship is another mistake that organizations often forget to do. And then what's the ongoing support and the measurement? Of those programs. A lot of organizations will forget to do that.

That is so powerful. Like I used to mentor, I don't think they are around anymore, Everwise. I don't know if you've heard of them. I felt like it was a great, great program, but I think they got bought by another company, but they used to have 6-month mentorship. They would assign me to someone for 6 months. And then after that, we decide, do you wanna go longer or that's enough? Let's get another mentor and mentee. It was such a powerful program. And what I like about what you said, what they actually had a plan, this is what I want to learn, this is what I need to improve. So you know exactly when you get there. So that was so wonderful to see. Now let's talk a little bit about your other bestselling book, this one, Bridging Differences for Better Mentoring. Now in this book, you do writes that differences live between us, not within us. Can you unpack that for our audience, please?

Yeah, sure. So, you know, we spent a lot, a lot of time as a society, and I'm here, I'm based in the US, so I'll speak, I'll speak about what I know about the US that might be applicable to Canada as well. I know things are different around the globe, but I certainly know that here in the US, We've spent a lot of time thinking about including folks who are— many organizations have begun to think about including folks who have been historically excluded in the workplace. And they've thought about those folks as being different, right? But the problem with that mentality is we are all different from one another. Yes, there's shared humanity. There are some similarities that are really beautiful and compelling. But if we minimize those differences, just look for the ways that we're similar, we forget that there's beauty in those differences. And folks who have been excluded are not, are not the ones who are different. We are all different from one another. The significance, excuse me, of recognizing that is if If as a leader, I recognize who's not been historically marginalized, I recognize that the differences are mine too, then it is equally my responsibility to own bridging those differences. And that's where the magic happens. When it is somebody else's burden to feel, to try to feel included and overcome barriers, then it's always going to be somebody else's burden and we're not going to end up with that momentum. But if it is all of our responsibilities, because we all have differences, we all want to be seen and heard and valued for who we are and have that kind of authenticity. So it's my responsibility to share and be vulnerable and be self-reflective and self-knowledgeable. And then to find and bridge differences with somebody else and to be curious about the ways that we're different. You know, the second piece of what I say about to that, to that, that bridging, that differences lie between us and not within us is that, oh my goodness, it's gone from my head. The second piece of that is that it is all of our responsibilities to bridge those differences and that we, instead of thinking about differences as something that divide us, What about thinking about we connected instead of despite our differences, we connected because of our differences, or I exercise curiosity about the ways in which we're different. Or instead of sharing my war story as your mentor, I'll share my experience and then I'll say something like, hey, Misi, does that resonate with your experience? How might it be different for you? What do you think of that? As opposed to just, this is the way I did it. This is the way it must be. Here are the challenges that I faced. They must be the same challenges that you face.

Well, that makes me think, though. So why do so many leaders kind of struggle then to talk about differences, even when they genuinely really want to do the right thing?

Yeah, well, it requires vulnerability. That's number one, which, you know, that's— I'm thankful to Brené Brown and others who have brought the concept of vulnerability into the public discourse still is very much kind of a third rail conversation, third rail topic, and people think it slows them down. And the other piece is that we have been taught, and I say this as a former employment attorney, we've been taught that topics about identity are verboten in the workplace. We shouldn't be talking about that. And I think that that's really a disservice. It's true we shouldn't make employment decisions based on those things. Treat people unfairly or inequitably because of aspects of identity. But if we fail to see identity, then we fail to really see people and we will not be able to create authentic relationships. I think people are afraid of, frankly, afraid, maybe even afraid of liability. They're afraid of the awkwardness, afraid of making a mistake, afraid it will slow them down, or afraid it will get them in trouble.

Yes. Well, because when we talk about differences right now, it's not just about being Black, white, men or women, but in 2026, we actually have like 5 generations working together in the same space. That's pretty amazing. I don't think that's ever happened before. We have even politicians today who die in office more and more often. I don't understand that. But I guess one question I have for you is on what skills in the 21st century must leaders develop to be able to mentor effectively across culture, generation, and lived experiences?

Yeah, so the first is the skill of self— the skill and the willingness to be self-reflective and think about their own identities, the courage to ask questions and to share, and the recognition that culture matters and culture is not— when we think about cultural competency, we think about not judging difference, but being curious about difference and bridging that difference. And that curiosity is really, really important. There's research that came out several years ago about curiosity being really one of the key leadership skills and recognizing that my truth and my experience isn't yours, and to be curious about that so that we can explore it together.

Wow, that is really something. Let's talk just a little bit about coaching because you do that quite a bit. What signal tells you that a leader is ready to coach rather than control?

Oh, that's such a great question. Humility.

Yes.

Um, I, I would— I, I was gonna put a comma next to humility. I might put a period next to humility. I think that that's really probably to me the threshold, uh, threshold, um, quality. Um, a lot of times humility comes from failure or frustration where you feel like you're not able to get through to others, you're not being heard yourself. So sometimes it comes from a place of needing assistance. I think, I would say, I mean, honestly, I think that that's the— if you have some humility or you're able to establish humility, if you are yourself a learner, I am a big fan of Carol Dweck's work on mindset. I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of a growth mindset or a fixed mindset. A fixed mindset being, I am the way I am. People are the way they are. They're good at what they're good at, and they're bad at what they're bad at.

Yes.

A growth mindset being, I'm not good at this yet. I don't know about this yet. I might be able to develop that competency or strengthen that competency. Or improve or learn. And I do think that humility is really key. And having this growth mindset is really important. There are— people say, are there people who aren't coachable? I think at some point everybody is coachable. But there are periods in time where we're not coachable because we're not able to move to that growth mindset or we don't have the humility to understand that there are differences that make a difference that we need to be curious about. And once we have those things, you're both coachable and able to coach others.

Now, by coaching senior executives, what is one coaching question you return to again and again?

Hmm. I always ask the question, what's coming up for you right now? What's coming up for you right now? How does this land for you? What are you learning? What is this moment teaching you right now? Those are some of the key ones. And rather than even a question, it's always— I think the best coaches and the best mentors say things like, tell me more. What else?

Wow, that's, that's powerful. So what else do you ask?

Um, well, it's, it's so— I don't have, I don't have a set list, honestly, Bizzy. I'm usually quite in the moment. But, um, we always start with what do you want to learn? Um, when I work with clients on a— for as a coach, um, we think about what the outcomes they're looking for are, and we are both outcome-driven. And, you know, actually, I would say what I do ask every every single time. I have a question that I ask at the beginning and a question that I ask at the end. And the question that I ask at the beginning is, what's present for you right now? Or is there anything present for you right now that will prevent you from being present? Anything on your mind right now that will prevent you from being present? So I call that a clearing. To me, that's a clearing to make sure they can be present. And then at the end, I ask for takeaways and commitments. Takeaways are what insights have you gained today? And the commitment is, what are you going to commit to do between now and the next time we meet? And I'll actually— that last question I always do in our mentor— my both my mentoring and my coaching conversations.

That is so powerful. I think it's definitely worth the price of admission. And if you notice, I used what you just taught me, what else? And you gave us a master key of what leaders really should be thinking about. And one reason why I really love coaching, and I think every coach should have themselves a coach too, is because it really keeps you accountable. Because when I have to meet with my coach, it's like, oh, I promise I committed to this. I better do it because I'm going to meet tomorrow. Otherwise, no, it's not a priority. I get to it whenever I get to. But when I know I have a meeting in my calendar and I need to talk about it, no, I have to show some type of progress. But wow, powerful. So what about what's happening now, especially with artificial intelligence and kind of how you see the future? How do you see mentoring evolving? In an AI-enabled hybrid fast-paced world?

Yeah, I'm actually really bullish about it, honestly, Beezy. There's a lot of people who are pretty fearful about it. I think that when it's used correctly— and by the way, we're all guinea pigs right now figuring out how to use it and helping to improve it and all of those things. I'm not denying that there's some scary things about AI. There are some things that are quite scary, but when it comes To coaching and mentoring, I've actually found it helpful in my own conversations. I always have a coach. And so before I meet with my coach, I will say, here are the things that I'm thinking about. Can you help me come up with 3 to 5 questions that I can ask my coach to help me? Or I'll say, Come up with, ask me 3 to 5 questions that will help me think deep enough to make the most of my time with my coach. So it's not to replace the self-reflection. It's not to give me answers. But it's really to stoke that curiosity, prompt self-reflection, and help the preparedness. Similarly, I am one of those coaches and one of those mentors who always takes notes. In my conversations with my mentees or my clients. And I will— and I have high security settings and always anonymous, never share any identifying information. But I will— part of the notes that I take, and I'm a pen and paper girl, I'm always holding a pen, but I'm a pen. So part of the notes that I take are something that's a curiosity that I have that I want to follow up with next time. So I might type in AI. I met with BZ, or I met with my— I would never say your name. I met with a client, and he was struggling with some communication issues with his manager. We worked out whatever. Can you help me think through 3 coaching models that I might use in my approach to the next follow-up? And I'll take them or I won't take them or I'll modify them. But it does help me think more deeply and critically as a coach about how I might approach that conversation. What 3 resources I can recommend to him. And then, of course, you always— I mean, that's the one thing with AI. You always want to check the resources because sometimes they'll lead you down a weird rabbit hole, at least now in January of 2026. That'll probably change.

Wow, that is quite insightful. So what leadership capabilities then do you think will matter most in the next decade? And how does mentoring accelerate that?

Oh, I don't know that I have a great answer for that. And I'd be curious about yours. I mean, I still think humility and curiosity and growth mindset. I think cultural competency is enormous. And cultural competency is a way to bridge generational differences, to bridge thought, the way we think, as well as to bridge differences in identity, you know, visible identity differences and nationality and culture and things like that. But cultural competency, cultural humility, humility, growth mindset, curiosity, always, always.

That is so true, especially now. Some people are now afraid that AI will take over their jobs, but I think Developing those skills that only humans can do and not machines, I think, is so critical. Wow. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Yeah, I think it will really elevate if it's used correctly, can really help us get smarter instead of getting easier. And I'm excited about what that possibility is.

Wow. What an interesting world we live in. Okay, I'm going to— we have about 20 minutes left, so let me start now a second segment where I really focus more on leadership. So let me start with this: what do you think is the greatest lesson you have ever learned, just in life, leadership in general?

Um, to get in touch with my gut and to learn from it. You know, I think, um, we spend a lot of time on the shoulds, uh, as parents, as a society, um, and, uh, you know, I, I think in general about the way that things should be. And I, you know, I, I'm incredibly fortunate, uh, the way that I grew up and the opportunities that were available, uh, to me. Um, but I don't know that I took the time to explore possibilities for myself, to be really self-reflective, to think about all the avenues that were open to me. And I spent a lot of time trying to please others and to fit in when in my gut I think I knew that it wasn't the right path. So it took me too long to get in touch with that.

Wow, that is quite insightful. And what do you think is the greatest leadership advice you've ever received?

Oh, well, I have two answers. I know you're asking for the one, but I'm going to break the rules and give you two. So the answer that I give a lot is, you know, I give it a lot because it really means a lot, which is advice that wasn't given in the leadership context at all. It's advice that was given to me by my sister-in-law. At my rehearsal dinner before I got married, which is that the main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing. Which is great advice in mentoring, it's great advice in marriage, it's great advice in life, which is what's the most— what's most important to you? That's why the phone call from my daughter was so impactful to me because really family and parenting and shaping these young women to be independent, good, kind individuals who do that is really what it was all about in those years for me. That's the main thing, is to keep the main thing the main thing. The other is that people come to you whole.

Hmm.

Mentees come to you whole, clients come to you whole, friends come to you whole, spouses and partners come to you whole. Even your children come to you whole with all of who they are. And that the key is to listen to them and to believe them when they tell you what they need, whether tone, words, body language, what have you. Or otherwise, and to really exercise that curiosity in order to create those relationships. Relationships are really everything.

Wow, that is so powerful. You remind me of something my primary mentor told me. If you see people as broken, then your tendency is to try to fix them. Whereas if you see them as whole, you want to serve them and listen. Yeah, I have two daughters. I'm Gen X myself, so they're all Gen Zs, and they've taught me a lot. Being a parent definitely transformed my life. Because sometimes my daughter just wants to talk to her dad. She doesn't want me to solve a problem. She doesn't want me to do anything. Just shut up and listen.

Exactly.

Wow. Powerful. Okay. What do you think then is the secret of your success? Why are you so successful, you think?

I am, first of all, honored that you say that and you think that of me. I'm always sort of striving. I think I have been willing to pivot 2 or 3 times. In my career to something new. And as somebody who is, you know, us trained lawyers are risk averse. So getting more comfortable with risk, recognizing that I'm capable and gritty and resilient if it doesn't work out to shift has been really important. And I'm referring specifically to the shift from being an in-house lawyer to an— excuse me, a law firm lawyer to an in-house lawyer, leaving the law, DEI, becoming a coach, and then stepping into the world of entrepreneurship without a salary and working with a parent and all of that was very risky. And I really think tuning into that knowing, like that inner sense of knowing as somebody who is spends a lot of time in my head to move to my gut has been— it's ongoing, honestly. I'm not there. I'm not fully there yet, but I'm learning along the way.

Wow, that is really inspirational. And I'm sure many people go through this. They know whatever they're doing right now is not where they need to be, but they are so afraid, they almost feel paralyzed to move where they are to where they know they should go. But you've done that throughout your career over and over again. Is there maybe an advice, tips you can give to people listening right now who know for sure they need to be doing something completely different, but they just feel that paralysis and fear to try something new?

Yeah. So the people who know and love me best will laugh to hear me say this because we give the advice we need the most, but we tend to overthink things, right? And really what you need to think about is not every eventuality, you need to give one yes or one no at a time.

Right?

What are you saying yes or no to next? Because there are all sorts of possibilities and choices that you can make along the way. And the mistake that we make is thinking that there is one path for each choice. The truth is there's one choice. There's many choices for each next choice.

Yes.

Right? And so saying one yes or no, making one decision at a time is, I think, what's helped me pivot and helped me feel satisfied and hopeful.

Man, that is so powerful. I think this is definitely worth the price of admission. Thank you so much for sharing. You remind me of something else my mentor told me, you know, fear is false evidence appearing real. And people always think about the worst possible possibility or probability when you just have to take one step at a time and eventually your path will be right in front of you. Wow, that is, that is powerful. So what are you learning now?

Oh, I'm learning so many different things. So on a tactical level, I'm still learning. You know, I'm fascinated with what AI can do and how I can use it. Better to elevate the way I'm thinking and the way I practice. I'm learning a lot right now. I'll give you a personal answer and a professional answer. Personally, I'm really starting to get in touch with my creative side much more. I am trying to do something creative every day, whether it's drawing or painting or writing or something creative. And that's new for me. And I'm getting a lot of fulfillment on that professionally. There's been a lot of research for many years. Many wiser minds than me in the mentoring space have done a lot of great research on developmental networks, which is this concept of creating a constellation of learning relationships. Kathy Graham, Monica Higgins, Rajshi Ghosh, really great minds who have done a lot of that research that I'm diving— I've been familiar with for a long time, but I'm diving more deeply into that. And I'm learning about ways to be applying that in the work that I do with clients. Because this idea that we have one mentor who is going to be there for all of the things and know all of the ways in which to guide and assist exist and develop is, I think, a fallacy. And I think it holds us back. We're complex beings. And so what are the different relationships that we can develop, whether one-on-one, whether in groups, whether with peers, friends, coaches, sponsors, mentors, advisors, role models, all of the things? And how can I help individuals figure out how to determine what they need and seek it and organizations set the foundation and the structure? To help nourish and foster that kind of development.

Wow, that is really insightful. What about some of the thought leaders or people you know that you think my audience should know as well, some that you follow?

This is a topic I love because I try to read as much as I can, which is really never enough. I mentioned my colleagues in mentoring, Kathy Cram, Monica Bell-Rose, Regan, Arachi Ghosh, are doing amazing research. Colleague Ben Kuchiruba, who is the president-elect of the International Mentoring Association, has put together some great compendium on the impact of mentoring on well-being in the workplace. More generally, outside of the mentoring realm, I love a good podcast, Bizzy. So I'm a big fan of Adam Grant and Malcolm Gladwell and Hidden Brain. Shankar Vedantam is a— I think has some great content that helps you think about thinking differently. I'm sure there are more. That I have forgotten. Yeah.

Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing because it is always insightful and inspirational for my audience to know who else they should be following and what they are saying. So if you could choose 3 people to have dinner with, right, they could be alive, dead, or even a mythical figure, who would you choose and why?

Okay, so I thought a lot about this question. And then we got on the call, and I see in your background that Colin Powell is there. He wasn't on my list, so I'm going to have dinner with 4 people if that's OK. That's all right.

Please.

He's on there. OK. And I think— I mean, he, as I think you'll agree, was really a quintessential leader, recognizing the importance of people, thinking about values, integrity, and really just a role model. For how to lead. So he's on my list as well. The first person I put down is Katharine Graham. Katharine Graham was the editor of the Washington Post. And she came into that job when her husband died. And she was at the time a Washington socialite, if you will. Incredibly bright woman, but she didn't know how to lead a paper, a newspaper. This was— think about this is right before the Pentagon Papers and the Watergate scandal, so really in journalism's heyday. And she needed to figure out how to navigate. And I love her story because she really modeled the idea of a developmental network. She found experts like Warren Buffett to help her about financial issues, Ben Bradley about journalism, all of these She assembled her team. And then she became a leader in her own right and really led with principle and integrity. She wasn't afraid to be tough. And so I really admire that, especially as a woman in a male— at the time, a very male-dominated industry at a time where it's difficult for women to lead. So she's number 1. She was number 1 on my list. Now number 2, given that Colin's taken that number. Second is Ellie Wiesel. So Ellie Wiesel also— has passed away, but he was a Holocaust survivor. He took the ultimate tragedy and really got people thinking about humanity and the importance of kindness. And you get every reason to shrink into despair, and he took the despair and he made meaning of it and really taught a lot— folks a lot. So he's number 2. And number 3, I say without any knowledge of the kind of guy that this guy was, but somebody like— the third person would be like somebody who formed the field of psychology. So I put down Sigmund Freud. I think he probably would be pretty awkward at the dinner table, frankly. There'd be a lot of questions that I'd want to ask him about the way the human mind is and the way people interact with one another. And maybe he's not exactly the right guy, but that's That's the role is I want some— I'd love somebody who really understands human psychology in a deep, deep way.

It will be a very fascinating conversation with Sigmund Freud and the id. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. So let's talk about books. Looks like we have about 5 minutes left. And like me, you are an avid reader. So what about this one? Why should we read Turning Pro, Steven Pressfield?

Oh my gosh. Okay. So, you know, they say that you resist the things that you most need to do. And as somebody who's written books, and I love to write since I was a child, I think that's one of like the inner knowing things. I used to write poetry when I was quite young. I fight, I will, I will, you know, look for the perfect shoes online for an hour and a half when I have a really great idea that I should be writing about. And when I looked at Stephen Pressfield, he's got another book called The War of Art as well, but Turning Pro is also a great one. Think about the fact that I really, like, I need to treat writing and thought leadership and sharing my ideas as my job. And what would a pro do? A pro sits down and writes like it's her job to write. A pro tunes into her muse and makes sure that it gets out in the world. And it helps me every time I'm stuck. I'll turn to Stephen Pressfield's work and just do it. And there's another one.

What about this one?

Oh, thank you so much, Bev. These are my friends, Bev Kay and Julie Winkle, Julioni. And they wrote Help Them Grow or Watch Them Go. We talked about this already, really about the importance of investing in your people if you want to keep them.. And it's a classic. It's a classic for a reason, because it's that good. So read it. And they're two wonderful human beings and great thought leaders in the leadership development space.

Wow. And then you also sent me some, some books in advance, so I created a digital library for you. Let me see if it's gonna show up. Okay, here, here we go. So one book you mentioned was Psychological Safety, The Four Stages of Psychological safety.

Yeah. So Tim Clark wrote this book, and I'll send you Bizzy so you can post for your listeners an interview that I did with Tim Clark on the 4 stages of psychological safety. If you want to be building trust and having authentic, deeper conversations with the people in your life, this is a really important book to read. And particularly in the context of mentoring, one of the stages that Clark talks about is learner safety. Is creating a safe space for people to share and to learn, this is a great book that gives great practical tips and an excellent model to do that.

Wow.

What about The Book of Alchemy?

Oh my gosh. Okay, so this is a very different context. Souleika Djouad is known for many things, including being the wife of Jean Baptiste, but she is a force in her own right. She started journaling in response to her chemotherapy. Treatment and/or her cancer diagnosis. And that is a book that has you guided 100 days of journaling with guided prompts.

If you have—

if you want— if you believe in the power of journaling, if you want to have more powerful journaling and just to think more deeply, it's a beautiful book and highly, highly recommend it.

But Tiny Experiments.

Okay. Tiny Experiments is the latest in my arsenal. I've got it for all the women in my mastermind. Group because I think it's that powerful. I spend time talking with thousands and thousands of people about goal setting, and it has me thinking differently about goals. What if instead of— obviously you want to think about what it is you want to accomplish, but instead of outcomes, if we measure, if we have experiments that help us think through, is the action that we're taking the right thing? It'll help us get to goal help us create more satisfaction. It'll help us be more resilient and malleable in the goals that we set.

Powerful. OK, The Power of Moments.

The Power of Moments. So many, many people I've either bought the book for or recommended. You know, there's so much about each interaction that we can do to make moments special and memorable. As somebody who thinks about convening both in the mentorship space, in the coaching space, My husband and I are consummate entertainers. How— how— I don't mean entertainers in the Billy Joel sense. I mean entertaining people in our home. Um, you know, how do you make moments special? How do you make things memorable? How do you make it so that you have what you can determine what your own brand of excellence is? It's a beautiful, beautiful book.

And finally, on Crucial Conversations, I guess a good one.

Crucial Conversations is my most frequently used tool in the coaching context when I coach clients. Confidence, because we are all, whether we want to admit it or not, we're all conflict shy. And this will give you some tools to embrace conflict as in a constructive way, to find ways to not be afraid of engaging in difficult conversations, but to do it in a great way. And also, it really ties into Bridging Differences as well, Beezy, because if you want to have conversations about topics that are difficult to have, this will help you get there.

Wow. Okay. So technically we are out of time. I think it's because you gave too many books. Can you give me 5 more minutes? Or if you have to go, that's fine.

We can end it there. You got it.

Okay. Thank you. Thanks so much. Man, I could be talking to you for hours. So I'm so grateful you're giving us the time because you have too much wisdom. So let me ask you this. If you had one and only one day to live, what would you have liked your final contribution to be?

Oh, um, this question is just so profound. So I, I'm going to give you my initial answer, and I'm going to reserve the right to call you in a few weeks and, and change my answer. Um, but, you know, my relationships are really important to me. I am so blessed to have spectacular family, to have a group of friends who I adore, to have work colleagues who I admire. And if I had one day left to live, I would spend it making sure the people that I know and love know how much I know and love them and how special they are.

Wow.

Lots of conversation. Yeah.

So if you had a magic wand, you could solve any problem at What is the one problem you would like to solve first thing tomorrow morning?

Mm. The threshold problem is that I don't think people understand how powerful they are. Yes. And that we all have a gift to give. So if I could wave a magic wand and have people realize that they have these unique gifts and that the time now to live out loud, to share what those are with the world. That's the problem I'd solve tomorrow. And then everybody else can solve the problems they're meant to solve with those powers.

Powerful. All right. So we are coming to the end of the show. So the last question is, how can we add value back to you?

Oh, thank you. Well, please follow me on LinkedIn. Check out my TEDx this, uh, talk, which is there on the LinkedIn page as well, and share that. That would help a lot. And then if you or your organization is looking to stand up a mentoring program or to create an experiment— experience for your employees where they can think more deeply about mentoring, please reach out. LisaZFain.com or CenterForMentoring.com, or you can connect with me on LinkedIn, and I'd love to just have a conversation about what that might look like.

Fantastic.

All right.

Is there a question I should have asked you that I didn't get a chance to ask? Anything else you wanted to share on this podcast today?

I don't think so, Thierry. This was really a wonderful conversation.

Let me ask you probably one of the most important questions then is if you could go back and give a piece of advice to your 17-year-old self, standing at the edge of this incredible career you've had, what would you say to 17-year-old Lisa?

Have more fun. It will all be okay.

All right. So we're going to end in just a couple of minutes. This is going to be lightning round. So don't take too long to think. First question is one word that defines great leadership. One word.

Curiosity.

Morning routine or practice that keeps you grounded.

Making my chai tea and visiting with my cousin.

Very good. Book or quote that changed your life? I think I know what that one is.

The book or the quote that changed my life is, "If you ask me what I came into the world to do, I will tell you I came to live out loud," by Émile Zola.

Yes, powerful. And, for you, are you gonna mention a book also?

I would say that Yeah, I mean, I can't choose just one book.

There's too many. I know. Okay, who inspires you most today?

I have to say you.

Wow, thank you.

The breadth of your knowledge, the extent of your preparation, the depth of your questions is really meaningful and inspiring.

Wow, that means a lot. Thank you so much. What is the leadership habit you refuse to compromise on?

Seeing people as whole. Seeing people as whole.

And as a coach, what is one question you believe every leader should ask themselves frequently?

What am I missing?

Good. Okay. What did you want to be when you were a kid?

I wanted to be— first, I wanted to be a poet. You know, there's great monetary success.

It's not poetry, but you are a best-selling author, so that's close enough.

Thank you. Yeah, and I wanted to be a hockey player, but that's another story altogether.

So, 3 adjectives describing you as a child.

Well, I'll give you 3 words instead of 3 adjectives. My brother used to call me Sister Space Cadet because I kept my head in the clouds. I really was kind of like I was like a— I was my own brand of hippie without being a hippie, you know. And so I would say sister— we'll call it— we'll go with sister space cadet.

Wow, that is quite something. Okay, and what about as an adult?

Hmm. I— oh, that's such a good one. Let's see. Um, I would like to say I try to be kind, I try to be, um, giving, and I try to be wise.

All right. Uh, let me ask something positive. I know a lot of people know this, these are pretty tough times right now in America and around the world. What is something you are feeling optimistic about?

I'm really optimistic about the fact— I'm optimistic about Gen Z, I have to say. I know that there's a lot of things that are broken, but there's also sometimes the breaking creates cracks. I forget what the famous quote is, but the light comes in through the broken parts. I think there's so much possibility that the next generation can see that we can't see. Um, and, um, I think that there's new light that's going to be coming in, um, because of the things that they— and the hope that they have for, um, creating new world.

Yeah, they are definitely different than us Gen Xs. Uh, I had a bunch of, uh, Gen Zs in my comment about 2/3, I didn't know how to handle them. So my daughter became my coaches and they told me exactly what to do to inspire them and get them on the right track. So this is a very, very last question. Thanks again for giving us an extra 5 minutes. Really appreciate that. What is one word that represents our shared experience on this podcast today? This is it.

Affirming.

Thank you so much, everybody. That's Lisa Phan. Number one mentorship expert in the US. And we are so happy, glad, privileged, and honored for you to be with us today. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise with us. Thanks so much, Lisa.

Appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Take care, Bizzy. Take care, everyone. Bye.

All right, everybody. This was definitely worth the price of admission. I am so grateful Lisa finally made it here and what she's taught us. So I want everybody to please get a copy of her books, Bridging Differences for Better Mentoring, and also the— no, that's not the one— The Mentor's Guide. All right. And listen to her TEDx talk. So just Google Lisa Fan or follow her on LinkedIn and also lisazifan.com in order to get in touch with her. Wow, what a great conversation we've had. Probably in the next couple of days, I will have an article highlighting all of the good things we talked about today. And just a quick reminder that tomorrow I will have the great privilege of speaking with the one and only 4-star general Larry O. Spencer, US Air Force retired. He's a people servant, leader, trailblazer, and principal steward, and is the bestselling author of Dark Horse. And we're gonna be talking about Dark Horse, from airman to 4-star general. And right after him, I will have the pleasure of speaking with Jamie Chamberlain, Harvard-educated career catalyst. We're gonna be talking about career agility in an uncertain world. I think more than even before, we definitely need to hear what she has to teach us. And then on Friday, I will be speaking with Colonel Josh Artsol, US Army retired. He's a combat physician, educator, speaker, and bestselling author of A Prescription for Caring in Healthcare Leadership. We're gonna be talking about a prescription for caring. And tomorrow I will come back with the 15th edition of the Ancient Wisdom Mentoring from the Book of Proverbs. This is not religious at all. It's going back to the Book of Proverbs and studying ancient wisdom and leadership lessons that are still applicable today. I will do that until the end of January. All right, that's all I have planned for you. And again, I hope to see you tomorrow morning with General Larry Thank you so much for watching the Leadership and Success Podcast. Bye for now.

I like to say that all mentors are coaches, but not all coaches are mentors. So coaching is something that is specific. It is usually focused on a narrow set of skills or circumstances, and it's usually performance-based.

How are you doing?

What are you doing on a particular issue or skill? Whereas mentoring is something that's much more developmental, so it's much more focused on holistic growth. It's much more focused on overall development, and it's very goal-focused, as opposed to coaching, which is about how do I improve my performance on a specific thing. Winston Churchill said, "The price of greatness is responsibility." And I think he meant it in terms of society, It's really important in terms of individuals as well. Really, the first step in creating effective mentoring is to accept responsibility as mentor and to accept responsibility as mentee. The mentor is responsible for the— investing in the mentee's growth, for co-creating the relationship with the mentee. The mentee, in turn, for co-creating the relationship with the mentor and for his, her, their own individual growth and development. Oftentimes mentoring is the first time a mentee feels that they were given permission or space to invest in their own growth and development, and that requires accepting responsibility for making that change. I like to think about each individual as having their own iceberg, and that iceberg is their identity. And just like an iceberg, there's a small bit that's above the waterline that's visible, and there's a There's a whole lot more that's below the waterline. So things that are visible may be things like your gender. They may be things like your race. They may be things or assumptions we make about your cultural background. But there are things that are visible. But there's a whole lot more like values and motivation and bias and privilege and religious beliefs and generational orientation that are below the waterline that affect your view of the world. And so what's really important in getting to know somebody authentically, in mentoring or otherwise, is to really start to get curious about the stuff that's below the waterline as well as the stuff above the waterline. I love this idea of cultivating curiosity, and it's really sort of become much more in the dialogue about leadership in recent months. You know, it's about asking questions. It's about wondering about different perspectives. It's about, you know, digging a little bit deeper about how this resonates with somebody and why. And it's about creating the space and the safety to ask those questions as well, because it's very hard to get curious about something that impacts a way of thinking if you haven't created that safety and trust as well. So I would say a precursor to curiosity is creating safety and trust. I think it's important both for mentor and mentee to do the self- self-reflection. So for mentor, it's about why do I want to enter into mentoring? If it's just about ego, try something else, right? But what do I have to give, right? How do I like to teach? How do I like to learn? And what am I willing to give and what am I willing to receive? For mentee, what are my goals? Why am I in this? What's the best fit for me if you get to choose your mentor? Or how do I relate to Who's my mentor, if it's somebody to whom you're assigned, but really taking the time and having that self-reflection so that when you show up in the mentoring relationship, you have the sense of self-awareness so you can create bridges across the relationship. I remember early in my career that somebody— I used to say, how can I succeed? And they said, just be really, really good at what you do. And that's important, to be really good at what you do, but it's not enough. There are two other things, image and exposure, that influence influence your success, how— what is your exposure to opportunities? What is your exposure to other ideas? What is your exposure to people? And what is your image with those people? And that is 90% of the pie, right? The P— so if there are 3 elements, PIE, performance, image, and exposure, the performance piece is 10%. The rest is 90%. So it really matters much more so that people can focus on your performance. If you can increase your exposure and your image.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.