S5:E100🎙️ LIVE with LTG Robert L. Caslen, DBA, USA (Ret.)

Hi, I'm John Maxwell. When the top companies in the world are looking for trainers, speakers, and coaches, there's one name that stands above the rest, and that's Maxwell Leadership. Our certified team members have gotten proven results for companies all over the globe, and our reputation, I'm proud to say, is second to none. Some of our members have risen to the top of their profession, including the one you're going to meet today. I proudly introduce you to my friend, Bob Fabien Zinga.

Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ, where we help you lead with purpose and succeed with impact. If you're ready to grow into the kind of leader others want to follow, this podcast is for you. If you're determined to elevate your success and leave a lasting legacy, this podcast is for you.

As my mentor, Dr. John C.

Maxwell, reminds us, everything rises and falls on leadership. Our goal is simple, to inspire you, challenge you, and equip you with insights that can transform the trajectory of your leadership journey. Welcome aboard to Welcome to another episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast with Coach BZ.

I met Bob when, when I was the Vice Chairman and then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and he was responsible for a lot of our planning. So after the attacks on 9/11, when the whole interagency, the State Department, everybody's wondering, what do we do, what do we do, he started to bring order to how we're going to address this new threat, this asymmetric threat from non-nation-state actors. And he was just so logical, methodical in the way he went through it. I think the fact that we haven't had an attack on our soil since then goes right back to Bob Kaslen. One of the reasons I went engineering was that I wasn't sure I was going to stay in the Army. But the one program that I really liked, that I was very attracted to, was Kansas State's Operations Research Systems Analysis Industrial Engineering program. And it was right in the one area that I had had some experience and some expertise. I had had an assignment in operations research, and it was a great program. So I said, this is a no-brainer. I really need to do this. We've known each other since we were cadets at West Point over 40 years ago. But over the last 15 to 20 years, we've actually worked very closely together in several different and many different areas in the Army. General Kazin's career has been really dynamic. He's commanded from platoon up to division level, but not only that, he's mixed that with an incredible sense of strategic thinking, and he continues to improve that today as he expands West Point and continues to improve on how we develop our young leaders for the future. He is a great role model. The fact that he's the superintendent at West Point is a perfect role for Bob. There'll be generations of Army officers that will benefit from the fact that he is their superintendent. What Kansas State did was brought me to levels intellectually that I never thought were possible. So they made you stretch, and then they nurtured you and helped you and mentored you and worked with you to get there, and then they stretched you again, and they worked with you, and it was just a tremendous climate of intellectual learning. Kansas State is a phenomenal university, and it provided me one of the, one of the best education opportunities I could ever ask for. It has helped me in my career significantly. So to all Kansas State, thank you very much. We are here at your service, and anything that we can do for you, we'd be honored to be able to do that. Bob, congratulations on this great honor. You're a great leader, but most importantly, you're a good man. And we wish you nothing but the best of luck. Congratulations to you. They couldn't have made a better choice. To know the quality of this individual now a part of the Kansas State Engineering Hall of Fame makes me really proud to have a friend like Bob Castleman be part of that.

Alright, welcome to another very special edition of the Young Leadership and Success podcast. Today, we have a living legend waiting in the green room. Before I introduce the General, as is our custom here, we have what we call a moment of gratitude. That's where we take just a moment every time we meet to be grateful. So, you know the drill by now. If you would, please, maybe close your eyes, close your eyes and put yourself in your happy place. Maybe take a deep breath and calm down your nervous system and think about one thing, one thing that you are grateful for today. And today, like many days, I am really truly grateful that I do stand on the shoulders of giants. I didn't get where I am all by myself. Many trailblazers have gone before me, and because of their service, because of their sacrifice, because they lived, I live today, and I am so, so grateful for that. All right, without any further ado, because we're gonna have limited time, I do want to respect the general's time today. Let me see if I can properly introduce a man who doesn't need any introduction. So today we're gonna be talking to Lieutenant General Robert Caslen, a 43-year U.S. Army leader whose career culminated as the 59th Superintendent of West Point, the 29th president of the University of South Carolina, and commander in Iraq, Afghanistan, and global operation. He has led at every level from the battlefield to the boardroom where decisions carry real consequences. Under his leadership, West Point became the number one public college in America. Army football reclaimed the culture of excellence, except when the Navy beat them. Go Navy! All right, the University of South Carolina, proud, proud of COVID growing enrollment and expanding internationally. He is the author of The Impossible Mission: The Character Edge on Leading and Winning with Integrity. And this message is quite clear: character is the ultimate leadership advantage. So without any further ado, ladies and gentlemen, please help me welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast General Robert Kazan. Good morning, General.

Hello, Bizzy. It's great to be with you, and thank you very much for that introduction. I'm overwhelmed.

Well, you are definitely a living legend, and you served your country both in uniform and outside of the uniform, which is just very inspiring for my audience. If I could start, sir, is there one thing you are grateful for today?

Um, well, I'm always grateful for my faith. I'm grateful for my family. I'm grateful for the opportunity to have served our country. And the American people for the opportunity to stand the gap between the evil that's out there and, and what we all stand for. Uh, very grateful to be with you today, BZ, and, um, I'm anxious to go through this program with you. So that's all— there's a lot of things to be grateful for. That was just top few.

Thank you, sir. And, uh, as you know, I sent you, uh, a list of questions. I'm sure we're not going to go through all of them, we won't have enough time, but I could speak with you for hours and hours and hours. But I'm gonna try to really stick to the most essential one. At least from a view of an enlisted person I used to be, or a junior officer, which I was not too long ago. There is so much we can learn from your wisdom and experience. You're really grateful for that. Is there something about you, sir, that most people may not know even after they read your book or they just get to meet you for the first time that you'd like to share?

Oh, Well, first thing, as I mentioned before, is I always seek the opportunity to share my faith because I think that's tremendously important in what I believe in, the values that I've tried to live by. I have a beautiful wife. We just celebrated our 49th anniversary. 3 wonderful young men, all of whom have served their country or their communities. One in the FBI, one in the Army in Iraq, and one is a firefighter, captain as a firefighter. So Those are some of the great things that, that are out there.

There's nothing like family, that's for sure. And because your 43-year career, sir, from combat to academia, what moment tested your leadership identity the most?

Well, I would say, BZ, that one of the biggest challenges was when I was a division commander in northern Iraq during the surge. Northern Iraq is where Mosul is. It's where you have the Sunni-Shia divide, you have the Kurd-Arab issues. It was the most hostile. We were, we're still in intense combat. We're losing soldiers, and it was a type of leadership that was tremendously important to provide the trust and confidence with the Iraqi people, with the Iraqi government, and the trust and confidence of the soldiers that you were leading. So that— because they all want to come, they all want to go home, they all want to know that they accomplished the mission, they all want to be proud of something that's important, and they all want to go home. So that was probably one of the most challenging and trying missions in my 49— 43-year career in the military.

And if I may ask you, how did that make you feel at the time?

Um, what— I had a lot, a lot of feelings, BZ. Um, It's a whole range. I mean, starting with the trust from the American people.

Yes.

That our government has put in me to accomplish this mission. The trust to lead 23,000 soldiers in the worst of circumstances. Um, and all of that is the type of trust I think that's necessary to be successful in leadership because the most important element in effective leadership is trust. But to have the trust of the American people, have the trust of the soldiers you're leading in the most difficult circumstances, probably one of the greatest opportunities that I reflect back in leadership.

And at the time, sir, if you're willing to share, what were you thinking? And again, I know you are a person of faith as well.

What was I thinking? Well, you know, as a division commander in charge of 23,000 soldiers, you're caught in between the big strategic picture that the nation has with our national interests and the tactical operations on the ground. So it was important for me to think through what our government wanted, what were the national interests, and then once we understood what those national interests were, those objectives, what were the programs that were going to get there, how was I as a division commander going to prepare those programs, put those programs together, and then to resource those programs with not only resources, mechanical stuff, but also with people. So, and that's really the strategic plan that you have, that we have the responsibility for when you're caught in between tactics and strategy at that level. But that's what I thought was most important.

And so I have learned from my mentors, right, rank is rented but trust is earned. And you did mention trust, uh, earlier. How do you build trust in a high-stakes environment when you don't have all the time in the world, especially you had more than 20,000 troops under you?

Yeah, the, um, there's a, there's a book out there that talks about trust. It's called The Speed of Trust. And in that book about the speed of trust, the author says trust is a function of character and competence. So if you're going to build trust, you've got to build trust on character and you got to be competent. If I'm working for someone and I know they're not competent, I don't trust them. If I'm a subordinate to a boss and the boss knows I'm not competent, there's no way that boss is going to trust me.

Yes.

If I have a character defect, I lose the trust of the people whom I'm leading or who I'm responsible for, then I become ineffective. And that's why trust as a function of character and competence becomes the most important element in effective leadership.

That is such a— and the book is by Stephen Covey, someone who wrote The 7 Habits of Highly Effective people. And last question I'm gonna ask about that experience here. What did you learn now looking back from that experience, that most challenging experience of your career?

What did I learn? Well, first of all, I learned and, and I developed the confidence to be able to deal with strategic issues. Yes, to understand the big picture, to bridge between the politics and how those politics create policies on the ground and to be able to implement them. So, you know, at that particular level of leadership, creating programs that are responsible for strategic plans, I think, is something, a skill set that is most important.

Yes. And I must say, I kind of joked a little bit about the Navy-Army game, because I know you were the superintendent of the Army Academy West Point. We joke a lot, but definitely have a lot of great respect for the Army. Although I must say, sir, I joined the Navy to be on board ships and to be at sea, but after 9/11, looks like the Navy spent most of their time in the Army sandbox. So that wasn't cool, but we definitely learned a lot, I must say. So, The Speed of Trust by Stephen Kavi. I believe it's already on our digital bookshelf, but I will make sure it is there. I guess the other question I have for you, sir, uh, when did leadership stop being theoretical for you and really become deeply personal? Because we do learn a lot about leadership in all branches of the military, and I believe the Navy borrowed most of our leadership training from the Army. For example, we talk about the 3 C's of leadership. Character, competence, and connections. We stole that straight from the Army. Like, my leadership mantra when I was so privileged to be a commanding officer was, "Mission first, people always." Again, that's something we just borrowed from the Army. We tend to do that a lot. But when did that become real for you, sir, as a leader?

Well, first I gotta go back to the Army-Navy football game you were talking about.

Yes.

I can't leave that unstated. Yes, sir. I know, I know Navy's got the upper edge right now.

Right now, right now, right now. Probably won't be so next year.

As a former Army football player playing in the Army-Navy game on national TV, that was a great experience. And, uh, and then to be— I came back to West Point as a coach. I went back to West Point as a commandant and the superintendent hired the current coach that they have right now. They turned the Army program around. They finally, after like 16 years, finally beat Navy. Uh, so, um, no, that's the epitome of, of rivalry that the American people can trust. And when they see the Army-Navy game on TV, America's got to feel, feel proud of their future generation of military leadership.

Absolutely, sir. Absolutely.

You know, okay, so leadership became effective to me from theoretical to practical, uh, when I was in high school. Wow. Yeah. So I was in high school, I was the president of the student council. And then I was selected for Boys State. And then I was selected for— I was the president of the German club and a couple of things. And I found that, I found that leadership was something that attracted me to, you know, something I was very interested in doing. And I was fortunate in high school, because I had the opportunity to do something. And I had leaders that were out there, that wanted me to be able to lead. I applied to be a leader and competed and campaigned to be the leader of the student body.

Wow.

Because someone encouraged me to do it. And I don't even remember who that was now. I just know it was a teacher. And, you know, but that was the thing that really got me going on leadership.

Yes.

Fortunately, West Point selected me to go to West Point, uh, not based on my academic performance. I had a lot of great leadership potential, you know, with Boise State and being student body president, German club president, all that. And they saw the potential in leadership and they allowed me and encouraged me to come to West Point based on my leadership potential, not based on my academic potential. But that's where it all started. And I really just caught the bug about leadership and leading people. And then, you know, when I was a brand new lieutenant, under the most difficult of circumstances in the infantry. That's what you're at the tip of the spear in the crucible of really challenging positions. And those young men and women under your care and under your leadership look up to you.

Yes.

Sir, are you going to get us home so we can go see our family again? Are you going to help? Are you going to teach us and train us and develop us to be— to have the skills that are necessary to accomplish the mission?

Yes.

They look up to you. With those questions, wondering if you got what it takes. And then, and then you do, you deliver, you lead from the front, you share the same hardships, you are physically and mentally prepared to be able to be competent in those circumstances. Wow. And when, when they know that they can trust you with their lives, uh, that's a great feeling. And it's not, it's not only a great feeling, but it's a great passion. To be able to not only accomplish the mission, but to be able to meet the expectations of those whom you lead.

Yes. Wow, that is really powerful. So going back to high school to now, any belief about leadership you had to unlearn, sir?

Yes. Leadership is not yelling and screaming. Yes. You know, when I went to West Point and That's when hazing was still allowed at West Point. And I quickly— when I went back to West Point Attack Clubs, I said, we're not hazing. I mean, no one responds to yelling and screaming. They can respond out of fear. But I mean, the greatest of the leaders don't get subordinates to respond out of fear. The greatest of leaders instill in them the purpose of why this is important so they internalize it, so it becomes their purpose as well. And when, and when a leader can instill and inspire purpose, to understand why we are doing something, then that's where leadership is the type of leadership that belongs.

Wow, so insightful. So let's talk about leadership under fire. Because sir, you've led in Iraq, Afghanistan, like I said in the intro, and during the 2011 drawdown. What does leadership look like when there is no clear right answer. And by the way, you did write a book about this, something impossible or something. So how do you figure that out? How do you make the impossible happen?

Um, well, the first thing I think that's important for strategic-level leadership is to understand the, uh, the intent, understand the national security issues. This is what I was talking about for understanding why we are there at the strategic level and, and to be able to communicate that purpose and those whys all the way down. The next thing that's so tremendously important at that senior level leadership is to understand the culture. You know, the different— one thing I learned from being in the military and being dropped into so many different places on this earth is that you, if you really want to be effective with the people in those organizations where those people live, you got to understand their culture. You got to understand what their value system is, and you got to understand how to build trust within that value system because it's their values, it's their culture, it's not yours. So you've got to kind of modify your leadership skill set so that you can understand culture and be able to be effective in that culture. So I think that's right. The other thing that's important with leadership, especially senior-level leadership, is to, as Stephen Covey says, or um, in the book Good to Great, get the right people on the bus. Make sure you're hiring people that are competent. Make sure you're hiring people that respond to your leadership and to what you're, what you're, uh, pushing and, and desiring. And then once you have that type of leadership and those type of people on the bus, I mean, it's amazing how far you can get, what you, what you can accomplish.

Yes, sir. And that's, uh, I believe it's Jim, Jim Collins, right?

From Jim Collins. Yes.

Great. Wow. Really powerful stuff. So how do you make decisions then, sir, when the data is incomplete? And it looks like it almost always is incomplete. Time is compressed and the consequences are strategic.

That's a good question. The most important thing is to understand the big purpose, to understand the why. And then as you look at courses of action, understand which are the ones that will accomplish the purpose. So when you have to make tough decisions, it's moving towards what that purpose is, moving towards what the end state and what the senior leadership's vision is. Once you understand that vision, then the mission statement will be able to be applicable within that vision statement. If you don't know, if you don't know the vision, if you can't bring that vision together, you know, you're going to be just wandering out there. Know what the vision is, know what the mission is. The mission is the task and purpose that will accomplish that vision statement, and understand the culture, and then put the programs together that will accomplish that.

Wow, man, I guess it takes humility and courage to lead effectively, doesn't it, sir? It does.

Um, I believe it does. There's a lot of good leaders out there that maybe not be so in, in our eyes may not be very humble.

Yes.

Um, but nevertheless, I just think that people are attracted to someone who's humble. People are attracted to somebody who is not there to talk about themselves.

Yes.

People are attracted to understanding the bigger picture and the purpose. This is why we're doing it rather than it's not about, it's about me. And whenever you start coming across, it's about me, and you start putting yourself before the mission statement and you start putting yourself before your people, they can pick that up in a heartbeat. And then that's when you start seeing issues on trust, loss of trust. And like I said, trust is the most effective element in effective leadership. And when you start having an ego that's out of control, people recognize that and they start losing trust.

Well, I must say, sir, 21 years now I've been in the Navy, I've seen quite a few arrogant junior officers. We don't know very much until we learn something. But maybe very, very few at the O-5, O-6 level, senior level. But I've never, never seen a single flag officer that was arrogant. And I always wonder, sir, do they send you to some type of humility school before they give you your first star or something?

No, no, I would just say you get beat up enough just to get there that, uh, yeah, you're beaten into— you're beaten into, uh, humility. Uh, no, no, seriously though, I think the military's got some great leadership development programs. And, and, and, you know, and there's so much good about it. One thing I love about flag officers in the Army is that we would evaluate ourselves.

Yes.

I forget how often we did it, but I mean, I would fill out forms on my senior officers, peers who I knew, and subordinates. And then I got that information back on how I was rated. This is not the report card. This is like, this is how I evaluate you. And it was very clear.

Yes.

Arrogance is hostile and living and creating a hostile environment is not the way of effective leadership in the military. And I'm sure the other services beside the Army, like Navy and Air Force and Space, they're doing the exact same thing. And people realize that if you're going to be effective in leadership, you've got to realize it's not about you.. And there's gotta be a degree of humility. Yes. And even the humility in a discussion about your humility is, is really a discussion about you. So take the people that you're leading, take their eyes off of you and put them on the purpose. Take their eyes off of you and put 'em on the mission statement.

Mm-hmm.

They'll be looking at you to lead them there.

Yes.

But they need to understand it's not about you, it's about the mission and it's about the vision that we want to ultimately achieve.

Wow, that is powerful. What do you believe, sir, separates those who maintain credibility in those times of crisis from those who lose it?

Yeah, um, you know, I think there's got to be a time when, as much as you want to develop leaders, that if you recognize they cannot be developed, that it's time to remove them, put them someplace else where they can aspire and grow. And then find someone else to take their place. You know, in common terminology, that's firing somebody. I don't look at it like that. Just realize that, can they be developed with the skill sets that are necessary in that position? And you've got to make the determination at some point that if they are not capable of performing, in other words, they cannot and they don't have the skill set and they cannot achieve that skill set, then move them out because it's more important, not for them, but for the mission and the organization.

Yes, I, I guess especially when I got the rare opportunity to become a commanding officer, I really understood that the burden of leadership, sir, is real. It's not just theory. How did you handle that, especially at the highest level possible?

How did I handle what?

That— I'm sorry, uh, the burden of leadership. Oh, especially when you have to make decision to let some people go, and you are responsible for both the mission and the people.

I was— I always felt I was honored to lead. I always felt I was honored to have the trust and confidence in the leadership position. I always realized that that was not a result of any achievement I have. It's something, a result of something I had to earn. You may have that skill set that gets you that position, but once you're going to be— if you're going to be effective in that position, you got to earn it. Got to earn the trust and confidence of those whom you lead. You got to earn the trust and confidence of your superiors. So I just think that that's the type of attitude that was necessary if I was going to be placed in senior leadership positions.

Yes.

But again, on senior leadership positions, it's a different skill set altogether. You've got to understand the big picture. You got to understand the policies and the people that are developing those policies and where they're coming from. You know, and that's why I love the military, because when you're a senior leader, they put you on the Joint Staff and they put you on in the State Department and the Department of Defense, places like that. You really get to understand that environment. You understand how they work. You understand the people that are in those leadership positions within those environments. And then, and then it really helps you to understand why, why they're doing something. That's, and that makes you effective as a leader. If you're going to be a senior leader, you got to understand the big picture.

So, insightful. What would be one of the hardest leadership decisions, uh, that you've had to make where you knew that you couldn't control the outcome?

Well, there's a lot. Um, you know, you may not be able to control the outcome, but you can put the right people and the right resources in place that give you the best chance to achieving it. You just can't hope. Hope is not a course of action. You've got to really understand the environment, understand the risks that exist in that environment, understand when you inject your mission, what kind of second, third order effects are going to be created. And once you understand all of that, and you kind of war game how it's going to play out over time and space, then you get a better idea of what's going to be the most effective methodology to accomplish the mission.

Yes, wow, that is quite insightful, sir. Is there maybe one specific example you would care to mention, sir?

Yeah, you know, I just go back to when I was a senior commander during the surge in northern Iraq. I mean, you know, we really developed strong relationships with the Kurds, we really developed strong relationships with the Sunni that was in there. Saddam Hussein was a Sunni. The majority of our Iraqis were Shia, but in that particular area that I was operating in, it was the Sunnis, and I had to gain the trust and confidence of the Sunni leadership. And those were not only the civilians but also the military. And then the military Sunni leaders were being replaced with Shia leaders. So I had to understand that ideology disconnect— not, it's not a disconnect. I just had to understand the ethnicities and what were behind them and how the created relationships among them. And once I understood all that, then I can become effective in it. The key mission was national elections, and we had to get the, the, we had to get the security in place, and we had to get the trust of the Iraqi people so that they can go out there and vote, and knowing that they will be not only safe voting, but their vote will count, and it will not be under coverage of corruption. It'll be a genuine non-corrupt voice that they have, and they would start developing confidence in a representative public— uh, publication— uh, representative system. Then that builds trust and confidence within the organization and the new government.

Really back to that impossible mission again. It is, it is really, uh, amazing. So when, when you look back to those moments, sir, What did that personally cost you?

Well, see, the Impossible Mission was— is about the drawdown of U.S. forces out of Iraq.

Yes.

And then the rise and the resurrection of ISIS, the Islamic State, and that created the caliphate that required return of U.S. forces. So I was the senior commander during the drawdown. General Lloyd Austin was the senior commander on the ground. He was the one that was withdrawing all U.S. forces., and I remained with 157 military people with the same national security interests that General Austin had with 80,000 soldiers, and I had 157 with about 6,000 contractors principally doing the Foreign Military Sales program, but we were doing a lot of other type of work as well, and as a result, it was challenging to meet the— to understand the national security objectives and how with such a small organizational force I was going to meet them, and then how to develop the trust relationships as a Department of Defense lead now working with the Department of State, and to develop those relationships. And it was one of the most complex and pretty hostile environments that I had ever been in. I'm not sure I was very successful in it, but it was one of those type of military drawdown lessons learned that I think that were important that we understand the transition of leadership departments from defense to to state and how drawdown of U.S. forces should occur and to— should occur properly. Everybody remembers the drawdown in Afghanistan. This book is about the drawdown of U.S. forces in Iraq.

Right, wow. So really, the Iraq mission back then required executing a massive security transition, like you've said, with minimal resources after troop withdrawal. Near impossible scenario for sure. So in the book, you describe leading during the Iraq drawdown. What made that mission truly, truly impossible?

Well, I didn't name it impossible. When General Austin was leaving, he hired a defense contractor to capture some of the lessons learned about his, his drawdown. Of US forces and the drawdown from Iraq. And in that lesson learned was the transition between the 80,000-man force that General Austin had to the 157-man force that I had. And when— it was the RAND Corporation that wrote that book— when RAND Corporation realized the national security objectives that were assigned to us with the resources, the so minimal resources that were there, They said it was impossible. So it's their words, not mine. But I thought it was a, you know, a catchy phrase when you start to think about now you are giving, you're the leader of this mission with no resources, but these are the national security objectives. And oh, by the way, don't plan on getting any additional resources. And yet we have to accomplish the mission. Which was considered by Rand Corporation as impossible.

Wow.

It was truly, truly a lesson in senior leadership and trying to build trust and confidence between Defense Department, State Department, the Iraqi people, the prime minister. It's a great book, and there's one chapter in there called Iranian Influence because, you know, when the Shia all of a sudden took over after Saddam, as a minority, was removed out of there as a Sunni, You know, the Shia were very much influenced, like, like the prime minister himself was in exile because of Saddam's— the way Saddam was leading, and he went to Iran and developed those Iranian relationships, and Iran was hugely influential. So there's a chapter in there if you, if you're interested to watch about the US-Iran War today. Yeah, I can read the chapter and understand why it became a it came to be there called the Iranian influence.

Well, that is really amazing. I guess sometimes people say history repeats itself, or, uh, at least I try to be a student of, of history. But within that context, sir, the impossible mission, the, uh, withdraw in Iraq, what leadership principle allowed you to operate somewhat effectively when the system around you was pretty much collapsing. What was your guiding star during that time, sir?

Building relationships. So as a leader, you had to build relationships. It's— I learned this in the work in the Army War College. They have an acronym for this type of environment. It's called VUCA. V-U-C-A. Volatile, uncertain, complex, ambiguous.

Yes.

And in between the US State Department, the US Department of Defense, the Iraqi government, uh, Iranian influence, and all kinds of other variables that are out there that complicate everything. You know, Iran's the 5th largest oil country in the world, and trying to keep that oil flowing, not only for Iraq's benefit for the world's economy. And in the midst of all of that, this is the thing that— I mean, these are the type of challenges that you have as a senior leader that you've got to understand that environment, that you've got to build those trust relationships with each one of those organizations. If I had to do it all over again, I personally think I failed in building a trust relationship with the State Department. The State Department in Washington, DC, not the State Department with the ambassador and all that. The ambassador was my boss, even though I had a military uniform on, because State Department was now the senior defense— I mean, the senior department of the United States government in Iraq. I worked for the ambassador. He was the senior leader, and I think we had a good relationship, but we had a strained relationship, our mission with what the State Department was looking forward to in Washington, DC. I won't go into details, read the book, all in there, you know, but that— but as a senior leader, I had to recognize where those relationships were and how to build the relationship so that we can become effective, and we can become effective for the organizations that we're leading.

But I guess one, one thing that is key there, sir, what did that experience teach you about the alignment, right, between political decision, I guess, in Washington, D.C., and then the operational reality on the ground in Iraq.

Yeah, so that's what senior leaders must do. They must understand, they must understand the policy and how to convert that policy into effectiveness on the ground, and how to build a strategic plan that will achieve those effects. And then how to develop the programs and the resources for that strategic plan. So that's the linkage. Understand what, what, what the policy is, what does it mean, what's its purpose, how are we going to achieve that policy on the ground, how do you develop a strategic plan for that, and how do you define the resources and the programs that are necessary for the end state that the strategic plan is going to achieve. Wow.

Now, you've co-written another book, The Character's Edge. So the book does emphasize, you know, character, not competence, is the sustaining force of leadership. I guess the first question I have for you, sir, why did this book have to be written? You've written it with Michael Matthews. Why was this book important?

Yeah, I want to give credit to Dr. Matthews. He's the co-author. It was his idea to to write this book. I was a superintendent at West Point, and the last week of my superintendency, Dr. Matthews called me up and said, hey, sir, I know you're leaving the military, you're going to retire. I was wondering if you'd be interested in writing a book on character. I've always felt character is so tremendously important, you know, because, because character is the greatest influencer of trust, and trust is the most effective element in effective leadership. So that's the link there. Competence is part of trust, but character— if you don't have character, you don't have leadership. Character will consume competence every day. And that's why I think character is so important. If you don't have character, you don't have the values that people believe in. If you don't have character, you live in values that's contrary to what the organization's values are. If you don't have character, you can't be trusted to achieve the organization's call it values. It's those values that define the culture of the organization. If you don't have character, you don't have those values internalized, you don't understand what those values are, you're living on a value set totally different. And people then don't trust you. And they're going to find somebody who can't— who they can't trust.

But I guess the million-dollar question would be, can character be developed? Or is it something you either have or do not have?

Great question. Great question. And my, my strong opinion is that character must be developed. Not only can it be developed, it must be developed. We all learn character from our growing up. I mean, from our houses, what our mom and dad say, how, what they teach us, what our schools are talking about. You know, we learn about character in the schools, in our high schools, about the school motto and things like that. And those all are values that we are exposed to.

Yes.

Character is the internalization of those values so they become part of our very essence. So that when we react to an event, we don't think about what the right reaction is. It's a natural reaction because you've internalized that value set. And that natural reaction is something that comes out to you. It's like holding a cup of coffee. If I hold a cup of coffee and someone hits my elbow, whether I want to or not, what's in that cup of coffee is going to spill out.

Yes.

You know, and that's what, that's what you want in character. You want to internalize the value sets of your institution and your organization. And, and, and it's a learned process. You have to learn what the characters are. You have to learn why they're so important. You have to come to the reflect through reflection with the agreement that this is the value set I want to live by. And then you become a man and woman of the character of those value sets. And that's, and that's what's important. Those characters will define your behavior.

Yes.

They give you the left and right value, the left and right walls on what is acceptable behavior and what's not. And it gives you the freedom to operate within the left and right value set. So that's why character is important, because they define a value that you have internalized that becomes part of your performance. Performance in everything that you do. You see, that's why character becomes important. If you violate your character, if you violate the values of the institution, you have automatically lost trust and confidence, whether it's with the boss, with your subordinates, with your clients. It doesn't matter. And when you lose trust, go find another job. And by the way, I've been there. I know what that looks like, and it's not a fun time. It's not, it's not fun for you or for the organization. Itself.

Man, why do you think, Vincent, it's so important to stay in character when you think that no one is watching? From my experience, especially when you become a senior leader, everybody's watching all the time, whether you think that or not. I guess if you don't believe me, just ask about, you know, the Epstein file or whatever. But eventually everything that's done in the dark, like the Bible says, is brought out to the light. But why is it so important to really keep your character no matter what.

Yeah, I think, I think you hit on something that's very important, uh, that when no one's looking, if you really want to define your character, ask yourself this question: what am I doing when no one's looking? What am I doing when no one is going to know whether I did this or not? What am I looking at on my computer screen at night when no one's around? You know, and then that will define the— that's your true character because no one else is out there. You're not doing something because of a consequence that you want or a consequence that you fear. You're doing something because it's part of who you are. Wow. And that's why when no one's looking, that's doing something when it's, it's about who you are, not about doing something because of a consequence.

Now I have seen this more in the industry, especially Silicon Valley, where they do value productivity and people who bring in the big money, usually over character. But in the military, there's been a few bad apples. But sir, have you ever seen or experienced a highly competent leader otherwise, but who failed because of character?

Yes, I was one of them. So after I retired, you know, I went into higher education and I worked at Central Florida for a couple years, and then I got selected to be the president of University of South Carolina during the COVID And I thought it was working— I mean, it was really challenging to work the university through COVID and cancellation of classes and programs and going back home and doing online and transitioning to online, and hugely, hugely challenging. So we're in the middle of, uh, the commencement at the end of the academic year, and I told my speechwriter, I said, I need something that will encourage and acknowledge the great work that these young men and women did in the midst of COVID when everything in their senior year was turned upside down, and now they had to continue their education. They need to be commended. She comes back and says, well, I can't find anything. I said, I got a whole list of quotes, you know, that I've kept over the years that people have said based on a certain subject, so I can pulled one out and gave it to her. It was Admiral McRaven's quote, just 2 sentences, 3 sentences that really acknowledged the grit and tenacity and perseverance under difficult circumstances. She put it in my speech. I was stupid enough to not acknowledge Admiral McRaven. And when you say something that belongs to somebody else and it's not acknowledged, what do you call that? You know, you call it something that's not there. And yeah, so here I am, and, uh, as a president of a university, and I just have committed plagiarism, um, which is really a non-starter, and especially in academics. And I took full responsibility because I said it and I owned it, and I didn't pass the buck or anything like that. I think that was important. It's one thing I learned is that when you say something, take responsibility for what did, and I did. Um, and then it was very clear that it went on national news. It went— I mean, it was even in the local news. It was a big deal. And I told my board, I said, hey, it's very clear that I've lost trust and confidence because of this, and I don't think I can ever regain it back. So the best thing for your— this institution, the University of South Carolina, and the best thing for you as the trustees is to allow me to resign, leave. And they turned down my resignation at first, and they came back after some more pressure from the outside, and they said, okay, we're going to let you resign. Uh, that, that's, you know, that's resigning in disgrace of a character issue. I mean, plagiarism is the stealing of someone else's work and using it as your own, and that's what it was, and that's the way it appeared. And there was no intent whatsoever to do that. There was no intent. It was just a conflicting of guidance and information and total innocence by my speechwriter and all of us. But it had consequences that, that led to a lack of trust that was on a road to even greater lack of trust. And it was time to leave and it was time for the leadership to find somebody else. And, you know, I mean, I live with that every day, BZ. It's not easy. It's something I'm very not proud of, but I felt that you asked the question, is something I think that was necessary as a lesson learned. So please, as those listening can understand what I experienced and the importance of character in leadership, because the consequences of bad character, just look at my situation, you'll see what that looks like.

Well, so it does take a lot of courage to admit that. Where do you think that courage comes from? Because for most people, sir, they would have just completely overlooked it, acted like it didn't happen, and just pretend everything was fine. Where does that drive for truth, for character, for excellence, I would even say, come from, sir?

Well, that's a good question, BZ. You're asking tough questions here. It comes from your values you believe in. And if I said it, I owned it. You know, I'm the one that had the quote. I'm the one that gave it to her. I was not explicit, in how I told her to use that quote. Yeah, it's— it was fully my responsibility. And I've learned over the years that I never shirk responsibility. When I make a mistake, say it and own it. And I've always learned that. It's just who I am. It's just one of those things that we learn as a value set within the military. And I just think it was tremendously important. And then I experienced the consequences even to this day. Now, what, 4 years later? And even to this day, you know, it hurts. It hurts a lot to have gone through that. It hurts to know that you lost trust and confidence as a senior leader. But nevertheless, it's something that I had to accept responsibility for and to, as a result, accept the consequences, which I still do today.

Well, thanks so much for sharing that, sir. For those who are listening right now, who may have gone through something similar. And I know it's— it takes time and it's difficult to build trust, and usually when you lose that, it's almost impossible to again. But looking back now, sir, is there any tips you have for some of us who may have gone through something similar at a much lower level, but how we can rebuild that trust within an organization or a community going forward?

Well, you know, it just really makes the case on why character and leadership is so important. Character is the value set, values of the institution. When you violate those values, it becomes an issue of ineffective leadership because you've lost trust. That's a huge lesson. Learn that lesson from people like me. Don't learn that lesson from making the same mistakes that I made.

Thanks again, sir. Looks like we are already running out of time. I have about only 7 minutes left. I did want to talk about West Point. I think it's, yeah, the oldest academy. Let me talk about this. I think we can do it in 5. At West Point, sir, you embedded ethics into leadership development. How do you operationalize character at scale? And one thing about West Point, I guess it's 360 degrees for you, right? You were a student there and then you came back as the super Intendant of the most prestigious military academy in the world. First, how did that feel? But then at West Point, how did you operationalize this, uh, character building at scale?

Yeah, you know, I've always realized that character is so important in the military to be effective. In the assignment that I had when I was a senior leader in Iraq, I had a terrible issue where we had to relieve a subordinate commander because of a character issue. And I learned a lot from that. You know, I was not hung up on the fact that we lost that leader because that leader needed to leave and we needed to replace him or her. What was amazing was that the impact it had on the organization when the leader is gone. When that leader has proven to be ineffective. You know, that, that's what was a bigger concern to me because they were in Mosul, in one of the most hostile areas in all of Iraq. They're seeing combat fights every day. And now all of a sudden the senior leader of that organization is gone.

Wow.

And they still have the same mission. They still have the same environment and they still have the same fighting that's going on. We had to quickly find somebody to replace them, you know, so that, that was a huge lesson to me. And then there, as the senior commander of 20,000 troops, I had to adjudicate— I had the responsibility to adjudicate all senior leader misconduct. And I had 78 cases of senior leader misconduct for a whole number of reasons during that one year we were there. And And it's all for stupid stuff, but all because of character. And it was not only the impact, like I said, of the individual and the consequences of being relieved of command. They'll never see another promotion ever. You know, it was the impact it had on the organization and the organization's ability to do their mission. So character is important, not because of the individuals, because of the organization and the mission assigned to that organization. Because when you lose a leader because of character, you've lost the— my opinion, you really have significantly impacted the ability of that organization to accomplish its purpose and mission. Yes. Wow.

So critical. What is one of the biggest lessons you've learned while at West Point? So I know you retired from West Point. I believe that was the end of your official military career, but what are maybe a couple of lessons learned while being there?

The biggest lesson learned, I realized, is that character defects can be recovered.

Hmm.

So I had the responsibility as superintendent to adjudicate all honor violations, cadet honor violations, and I would either kick the cadet out or I would make them repeat a semester Some cases I would send them back into the Army and then they would reapply back. But in all cases, they would go through at least a 6 to 12 month mentorship program to understand what they did and reflect on it and why they did it. And I had a young man that I had a character issue. We separated him from West Point. We put him in the Army as an enlisted soldier for a couple years. Then he came back. And his comment to me was, sir, I fully understand why honor is so important. I fully understand why character is so important, not only in the mission but the ability to accomplish the mission. And I understand, and because of his military experience as an enlisted soldier, he realized the importance of character. And as a result, he came back and completed West Point and then graduated and got commissioned as an officer, even with 2 years enlisted experience. But he had, he realized Even though he had a character defect, he overcame his character defect and became stronger as a leader as a result. It's like breaking a bone. If you break a bone and it heals and heals correctly, it'll become stronger where the break was than it was in the first place. Yes.

Wow.

And these cadets who had character issues and honor violations, they all went through this mentorship program and it was unbelievable. How they emerged out of that, out of that mentorship. And then the internalization process that occurred within them to internalize those values of duty, honor, and country and what they stand for. So the big lesson learned was if you make a, if you have a problem with character, if you get the right counseling and the right coaching, yes. You know, with people like you, you know, people can learn from that. They can internalize and reflect, and they can change their behavior and change who they are and what they stand for and become stronger as a result.

Now, for, for those who went through this program, was there even one for whatever reason didn't make it, didn't, uh, go through the, the full process, I guess, to redeem themselves? I know we always love the redemption story in America. Was there any failure for the programs that had to come?

Very few. There were very few. There may have been one or two in the 5 years I was there. The bigger problem I had is they had to admit they made a mistake in the first place.

Yes. Yes.

If you won't admit you made a mistake, then you'll never go through a program that's gonna correct it because you never believe you had a mistake in the first place.

Yes.

So I always looked on when I talked to them is, do they understand they made a mistake? And then do, do they accept ownership of it?

Yes.

Because if they accept ownership of it, then they have internalized it, then you can go through the growth process.

Yes.

Changing and reflecting and modifying and understanding why it's so important.

That's humility, honor, and integrity. And I'm assuming, sir, as a senior leader, you know, you almost look at them like your children. You would like for everybody to be within, but sometimes there is that one or two you just cannot do anything for—

Oh yeah, no, that's true. No, that's like I said before, in your organization, you've got to recognize when this person will never get it. They'll never get you there. Understand that. Don't be— you don't have to apologize for it. Your job as a leader is to do the harder right. And if you've got to remove that person, as much as you may love them or whatever, remove them for the good of the organization, the good of the mission. Then remove them and do it in such a way that they can, they can uphold their ego and their self-esteem so it's not crushed by the fact that they're gone.

Well, leadership is tough stuff. We've run out of time, sir. What can we do to add value back to you?

Oh, well, if you like what we talked about, The Character Edge is a great book. Uh, if you're interested in the drawdown of U.S. forces of Iraq and what all occurred during that particular time. Uh, my book on The Impossible Mission, you know, you're welcome to do that, uh, as well. But, uh, you know, I mean, the other thing is be inspired to understand why you do things, to be inspired to understand what your value system is, how you obtain that value system over the years, how you've internalized it, and be inspired to live a life of character. Because in the end, it's not going to be— I mean, when you're on your deathbed, you're not going to wish you spent more time in the office. You're going to wish you spent more time with your family, with your faith group on the value systems that you think are most important in life.

Yes, sir. And can you tell us about Kazan Consulting, sir? Yes.

So I just— 72 years old, I just got my doctorate in business. So now I'm a one-man— I established a one-man company called Kazan Consulting. So I'm all about leadership and leadership development. That's what— that's my forte. And with my experiences, So I provide that you see on the screen, the key services, really 7 of them: leadership development, strategic planning, cultural development. You see, you scroll down, you got executive coaching, exponential team building. That's where we bring corporate executives to Gettysburg. Change management. And the one on the bottom is what we talked about, and that's about character. So if you are a corporate executive or if you're a CEO and you are interested in some of these leadership development programs, give me a call. My contact information there, caslin.consulting.com, and, uh, or caslinconsulting.com, sorry. And, uh, be glad to talk to you about some of the services that we provide.

And thank you so much for your time, uh, today, sir. Before we end, if I can ask these two quick questions. One is, uh, what would you tell your younger self, let's say 17, 18 years old, knowing what you know now and having had such an incredible career, both in uniform and out of uniform, what would you advise your younger self?

Sir, I would say be a leader. Don't be a follower. Be a leader. Understand what you stand for and understand how you can inspire and influence others to achieve what you think are important goals and objectives. Be a leader. Second is think about seriously serving your country on some of the different opportunities that are out there because our country needs leaders and that needs people who will serve them. And our country has gone on so greatly for 250 years. Let's keep it going for another 250 years and be an influence to make that difference.

Fantastic. Last question I'm going to ask, sir, is, uh, I like to leave on a positive note. Sometimes we talk about some pretty heavy subjects here. What is one thing you are feeling optimistic about these days, sir?

Um, What am I optimistic about these days? Regardless of what people think about our country, I am optimistic about our country. You know, the beautiful thing about our country is all our dirt is thrown right there in front of everybody. There's nothing hidden, you know? So, and out of that, people are held accountable. And out of that, people see what the impact and consequences are. And out of that, people make changes. So this healthy dialogue that's going on in our country today, I think, is important and I welcome it. You know, let's just keep it constrained within the left and right parameters, limits of acceptable behavior. But, and let's make sure that we have good, strong dialogue. And in the end, what dialogue that's embraced by the, by the character values of our nation.

Well, that is very, very powerful. Well, thanks again for, for your time today, sir. Really. Do appreciate that. And this is the book I believe everybody needs to purchase like right now, The Character Edge. I think we need it more than ever before. It is so timely. Thanks again for your service to our country, sir. Really appreciate it. Thank you.

Thank you, BZ. Honored to be with you today.

Thank you, sir. All right, everybody, this is one for the book. We just talked to a living legend, General Robert Cazen, and Like I say, so follow him on LinkedIn, and that's LinkedIn Robert-Kazen. And he also has a personal website, robertkazen.com, where you can get all of his books. And he just started kazanconsulting.com. If you need leadership training, I don't think there is a better teacher. And make sure to purchase copies of his book, especially The Character Edge: Leading and Winning with Integrity. And I believe every any junior officer listening to me right now should read The Impossible Mission: The Office of Security Cooperation and the US Forces Drawdown in Iraq. And we really need to learn our history so we can understand our present. All right. That's all I have for today. Thank you so much for watching. A couple of books that the general mentioned: The Speed of Trust by Stephen R. Covey. It will be added to the digital bookshelf today, and then this one is already there, Good to Great by Jim Collins. Okay, one more thing. Later today, I believe it's gonna be 1:00 PM California time, so 4:00 PM on the East Coast, I'm gonna be speaking to Colonel Matthew Paul. He's the bestselling author of Damn Fine Soldiers. We're gonna be talking about leadership under fire, lessons from the 21-day march to Baghdad. Another view of the Iraq mission, and I wish you can join us. All right, that's it for now, and thank you so much for watching. And last thing I'm gonna say, uh, sometime this week I'm gonna go back. We are studying the book of Proverbs. It's not a religious study at all, it's just about ancient wisdom and leadership lesson from a book written more than 2,000 years ago. But those leadership principles are still relevant today in 2026. So we did Proverbs 21 last time, so we're gonna get to Proverbs 22. I think it's going to on Saturday. All right, I hope to see you later today with Colonel Mathieu Paul. And thanks again for watching and bye for now. Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership Success podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.