S5:E101🎙️ LIVE with COL Matthew Paul, USA (Multi Tracks Audio)

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All right everyone, welcome to, uh, another episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast. I am really privileged today, we have a very, very special guest, so I'm gonna be introducing him in just a moment. But before I do, uh, I'm reminded of our moment of gratitude. Every time we meet, we always take a moment just to be grateful. So this is the second episode today, so, uh, you guys know the drill. Um, this morning I was really grateful that I am a U.S. citizen and I live in the United States of America, which I believe is the greatest country in the world. I can't believe we're going to be celebrating 250 years, and I am praying for another 250. America is such a special place. It's not perfect, no country is, but it's definitely the best country there is. The home of the brave and the land of the free, and I am so grateful for that. And I believe Part of our greatness is really because of the men and women in uniform who pay the price for our freedom, because freedom isn't free. Somebody had to pay for it. All right, let me see if I can properly introduce our guest today. Today I really have a great pleasure and honor of speaking to Colonel Matthew Paul. He is a combat-tested leader, Army acquisition executive, and co-author of a powerful new book, Damn Fine Soldier: The Epic Story of Task Force 27. Infantry and the 21-Day Attack to Baghdad That Changed Modern Warfare. We'll definitely get into the book, but as a former mortar platoon leader in Task Force 2, Tac-7 Infantry, Matt led soldiers through the historic 21-day assault from Kuwait to Baghdad during Operation Iraqi Freedom, one of the most intense and decisive campaigns in modern warfare. Today, he continues to serve at the highest level of the Army leading enterprise software and technology programs that are shaping the future of warfare. From leading under fire to leading transformation at scale, Matt embodies what it means to lead when it matters most. So without any further ado, ladies and gentlemen, please help me welcome Matt Paul. All right, good morning, sir. How are you doing today, man?

Good morning. Well, I should say good afternoon rather. Uh, it must have been a long day.

Yes, true, true. I've been up since, uh, 5:30 this morning. But before we get started, sir, uh, why don't you give, um, what do you call it, like, your thoughts are your thoughts alone and not the army's.

Say that again, please.

Why don't you give what's it called, the advisory thing?

Oh, I just— what you're going to be talking about. Thank you for that. Thank you for that. Just a quick disclaimer, just I'm here not in an official capacity. My views are my own. I look forward to this conversation about leadership and my experience. Thank you.

Outstanding. All right, so first question I always ask is, what are you grateful for today?

I am grateful for being on this show to have a very important discussion about, about leadership. As we mentioned, as I mentioned in the green room, I think it's, it's leadership outside of, outside of the military, outside of defense, uh, is very, can be very underrated and undervalued, right? And I think it's important to shine a light on leaders, on leadership,, so we can learn, right? And we can, we can, uh, we can lead people better, and we could deliver better outcomes for our people, our country, etc., etc.

So true. And is there something about you, Matt, that most people may not know when they first meet you?

Um, I— that's a hard question to answer. I mean, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm, I'm sort of an introvert. Um, I'm not You know, I wouldn't necessarily call myself an open book. Most people don't realize that I am a prolific writer. That is my passion. It is my outlet. When I, you know, when I just need to go somewhere and relieve some stress, I write. So that's my thing. And a lot of people, people that know me well actually don't. Don't know that.

Wow.

So why did you choose the Army? Why did you join?

Um, well, I, I come from a long line of, um, of family members that, that have served, uh, not just, uh, in the Army but all of the services, going back, uh, all the way to, uh, the Civil War, really.

Wow.

Fighting for the Union, kind of a branch of my family Yes. Going— fought at Petersburg, and then, you know, every major conflict since then. So it's sort of a family tradition. It, you know, it's the reasons why you join aren't necessarily the reasons why you stay. So that's why I joined out of tradition. I stayed because the Army was very good to me, gave me a lot of opportunities that I wouldn't have otherwise had, took great care of my family, you know, my children, and it became a lifestyle. And, and I don't even know what life would like be like outside.

Yes. At this point. Is there a reason why you chose the Army as opposed to like the Navy or the Air Force?

There's no particular— it was just, you know, there's— and I don't want to be that guy to point to.

Yeah.

I tell you, there are some days in the foxhole, you know, where I said to myself, man, I wish I had joined the Navy. Yeah, I know the thing about the waivers and doubt. But it was one of those, you know, my father was an Army guy. He sort of reared me into it. And, and I had the opportunity.

Thank you for your service. So that's, you know, I know there is not a lot of friendly competition between the branches. Like, for the Air Force, I always say they usually almost always build, uh, the golf course and then they build everything else around it, right? And they tend to have the best food too. But, uh, anyway, it's, uh, it's, it's all fun. So of course this year the Navy did beat the Army, but maybe next year it's going to be a chance. So that's all right. So when people do read your bio, they do see, you know, combat leader, acquisition executive, offer. But how do you define yourself as a leader today? And has that kind of changed since you joined the military?

Yeah, so, you know, what I would say, BZ, is first and foremost, I define myself as a father first, husband, friend. And those are the most important aspects of my life. Being a leader in an organization is something that I do, and I do enjoy doing it. And my particular style is that of a servant leader. I truly believe that helping others, coaching them, facilitating their success, providing them with resources and moving and removing barriers truly is the best way to lead.

Hmm, that's really, really powerful. I had the privilege of being a commanding officer in the U.S. Navy, greatest honor of my life, but the most fulfilling thing I've ever experienced is when my sailors promote, they get awards, and you really make a difference in their career. There is nothing better than that. Wow, it's incredible. So was there maybe a moment in your career, sir, where that kind of most shaped the leader you have become today?

Yeah, it, it's really difficult to pinpoint a specific event. I've been wearing the uniform now for over 27 years, uh, serving in operational combat roles as well as serving as an acquisition officer leading complex modernization programs. Leadership habits are not generally formed by a single moment or a single leadership experience. The way I think, the way to get good at leading is by leading, succeeding and failing while leading, learning and applying those leadership lessons. I will tell you that I have been shaped more from failure over my career than from success. And more from the hard times than from the easy times. Certainly, my experiences in war, leading troops during the tough times, that certainly stands out. More recently, leading technically complex and ambitious modernization projects, I think perhaps more than anything else, I learned from watching others, people above me. And I took note of those particular leadership traits that made them successful.

Yes.

Hmm.

Would you mind sharing, sir, some of the leaders, good or bad, who have influenced your leadership philosophy?

I've been privileged to have been led and mentored by a great many effective leaders over the course of my career. Every infantry officer in the Army remembers their first battalion commander. I went to war with my first battalion commander, and then later in life I wrote a book with him. So that relationship turned into a lifelong friendship. What I remember the most about him is that he was a true servant leader with a very big heart. He genuinely cared about all of his soldiers. And time and again, he risked his life for soldiers. In combat. I love the saying that, uh, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. We all knew that he cared, and so that inspired us to follow him under the toughest conditions.

Wow, that's really, really amazing. It reminds me of, uh, what my mentor said about the difference between leadership and management, right? Because in theory with management, you could get people to probably work up to 100% of their potential, although they almost never do. Harvard Business Review, I think, said most people only work about 25 or 30% of what they are able to as far as output. But with leadership, General Thomas Sowell, you can actually take people from 0 to 110%. Yeah, it's mathematically impossible, but when you lead and influence, inspire people, they would pretty much, you know, follow you to the pits of hell if they have to and come back. And that's, that's just, you know, incredible to see. Um, in the military, you definitely see that from time to time.

I couldn't agree more. Going from good to great, right? I think it's leadership is an art. I think management's kind of a science. Leadership is, is an art.

Yes. I would definitely agree to that. So let's talk about leadership under fire. If you could take us back, sir, to 2003, what does leadership feel like when lives depend on your decision?

You certainly feel the weight of responsibility, uh, every single day, and you don't really get used to it. You balance the well-being of your troops against the imperatives of the mission, and every decision is a balance. Every decision becomes a risk assessment. In the Army, we have a saying: Mission first, people always. But sometimes the two are in conflict. With each other. So the leader has to fall back on his or her good judgment. He has— he or she needs to fall back on things like ethics and professional values to make the best decision possible.

Wow. So actually, by the way, sir, the Navy did borrow that from the Army. I found that out last, last year. A lot of leadership things that we learned in the Navy, we just copied from the Army. Simple, simple as that. But, uh, yeah, when we say mission first, people always— that was one of my leadership mantra when I was in command. What happened if you have to choose between the mission of the organization and one of your soldiers? How do you make the decision, sir?

You know, and it's, it's always going to be based on the conditions at the time. It's gonna be based on, you know, the consequences of the mission and what your people are capable of. And there's always gonna be that tension there. And so, you know, there's not an exact prescription or a formula. I think it comes down to, you know, the best leaders have really good judgment. They've got a good moral compass. And they've got good values. In the Army, we have 7 core values that we, that we fall back on. When, when, when there is no playbook, you know, for your situation, when there's no field manual to get you through it. And all you have, it's your, it's your judgment, your ethics, and your professional values. And, uh, and there are no perfect decisions in war.

That is really powerful. And I feel like the civilian world, sometimes they don't truly understand what we go through in uniform. Uh, for example, the book you've written and all of the feedback you've received so far, what is maybe one or two of the biggest myths civilians have about leadership in combat? They just don't understand.

I think, you know, Hollywood you know, portrays combat in a certain way, you know, where it focuses on very specific, you know, sensational events, right? Climax of certain battles, engagements, things like that, where it sort of portrays like the best leaders are fearless or have the most courage and Courage, courage is important, to be sure. But I think the greatest attribute for a soldier and the leaders that lead soldiers in war is really resilience, resilience and endurance at every level, right? Physical, mental, and emotional, right? Resilience and endurance are keys to effective leadership.

That is powerful. And how do we develop resilience? What would you advise?

I think some of it has to do with talent management and putting people in the, you know, putting the right people in the right jobs and professionally developing them so they, when they get to that level, they are, they do have those attributes that will make, that would make them an effective leader in that role. I also think that there's no substitute for like good effective training, training at the individual level, leadership training and training as a team, right? All of that, getting those reps and sets builds a lot of the, a lot of the resilience that you need during the tough times.

Yes. Yeah, because one thing I feel like the industry can definitely learn from the military is we always, you know, fight the way we train and we train the way we fight. So when we are in the intense situation, we don't just rise up to our potential, whatever that is, we always fall back to our training. So we really develop that muscle memory. And in the industry, I've been in IT for maybe 12, 15 years now, that doesn't always happen. And it's definitely something they could learn from us. How critical is training when you develop leaders? And the other thing too, besides that, sir, is that in the military, we also develop leaders at every level, even enlisted. And it's just amazing because in most organizations, they don't expect you to be a leader unless you have a title, unless you are the CEO, the CISO, the CIO, or something, a manager or a director. They don't really see you as a leader at all, but it's very, very different in the military.

And then I think you hit on it too, BZ, is that we, you know, what we really try to do in the military is we try to, you know, train and prepare the future you, right? The one, one and two levels down, mentoring that, that population of junior leaders. So if they need to, they can rise up and assume your role, right, and, and take over. Under, if you know, under certain situations, right, to prepare them.

So true, because the other big difference I have seen is in the military, we tend to teach our replacement. I want to make sure the new guys who got into my unit is going to learn as much as I know so they can be successful with the mission when I get out of the unit. But in the industry, they tend to keep all of their knowledge secret because they're like, if I share that with you, 'Now I'm going to compete with you and you may get the promotion and I am not.' So it's a completely different mindset. It's, uh, I don't know, it's quite insightful, uh, how much the industry can really learn from the military. Uh, can you walk us through maybe a moment where you had to make a decision with incomplete information and what you learned from that experience?

So that's a great question. I think going back to Operation Iraqi Freedom, March, April of 2003, that imperfect information probably characterized most of our march up from Kuwait to Baghdad. We had pretty significant intelligence gaps, especially as the Iraqi military was displacing, you know, displaced and, and, and crumbling. Um, we, you know, every— at a point, every movement that we made, every mission, we were sort of in the blind, right? We were haunted by the fog of war. When we eventually reached the outskirts of Baghdad, we really didn't have a good grasp of the enemy's disposition, composition, or strength at that point. So we proceeded with caution. And as a junior leader in charge of my battalion's mortars, so I think a lot of fire support, I, I needed a suitable place to set up close enough to the action but far enough away to keep, uh, to keep us out of direct combat. And I had like less than 5 minutes to decide where to go based on very incomplete information. You know, one spot was as good as the next. Long story short is that it ended up being a successful failure type situation. It was a very bad spot for my team. But my task force benefited from us being there. I learned in that moment that there are things that a leader simply cannot control, that are beyond the leader's control. And I learned that a leader will always have imperfect information to base decisions. Really hard consequential decisions never have perfect information. And waiting for perfect clarity is often a fool's errand and can lead to the worst outcomes. When that happens, it often results in no decision becoming the decision.

Wow.

So I guess that's, um, paralysis by analysis. I guess you— what you're saying, sir, it's always better to make a decision, even though it's not the best decision at the time, than make no decision at all.

100%.

Wow.

That's— so during those moments, how did you feel? What was running through your mind?

Well, in that— well, in that moment, um, you know, you know, again, mission first, people always. I need to be— I needed to be in the best position possible to support 900 other soldiers that had missions to go do for our task force. Right? So that was our mission, is being in the best position possible. But in that situation, that position was in a— it was in a pretty dangerous spot. And it put my soldiers, my soldiers that were under my command, at a lot of risk. And so just balancing that, right, in my mind, you know, going back to judgment, ethics, values, you know, doing that calculation in my, my mind. That's, that's, that's what I did over the course of those 5 minutes, and we eventually landed on a spot that was, uh, again, bad, bad for me but good for everybody else.

Wow. Well, sir, I think you would agree that trust is the foundation of teamwork and leadership. How in the world do you build trust within your team when fear is real and constant, but also when you don't have enough time to do it?

I think we, you know, we probably hit on it a moment ago in one of the previous discussions. I think the answer to that question is easy, and it's through training and preparation. You know, that's what builds that's what builds trust, uh, in, uh, when fear is part of your, part of your environment, right? It's falling back, you know, rising or falling back to your level of training and preparation. My unit, my outfit had the benefit of 18 months of continuous training. At Fort Stewart, Georgia, and at the National Training Center in Southern California. Uh, so many reps and sets before we crossed the border into Iraq. And most of us in key roles, we were all stabilized in our organization, uh, for longer than normal. So we all had a lot of not only training, but just a lot of experience in those roles and training environments to the point where, you know, we could, we could do things and we can interact. It was almost intuitive, right? You didn't have to think about it. I think a lot of organizations outside of the military undervalue training. I mean, I see that sometimes. Or they, or they, or it may not be that, or maybe they rely too heavily on technology or they rely too heavily on education alone. But I think that if you're in a high consequence job with high consequence outcomes, should always incorporate training, training at the individual level and training as a team.

That's powerful. If you don't mind sharing, sir, since we're talking about fear here, what is one of the greatest fears you've had to overcome?

I think, um, over the course of my career, I, I, I had an irrational fear of disappointing people above me, right? Um, not meeting their expectations. And, you know, in the military their expectations were always, always high. And it, it, you know, through a few leadership experiences, I was able to overcome that, that fear and get myself into a much more comfortable place, focusing on my mission and what's important, and just being upfront and honest with the people above me. About what we can achieve with the resources that we have. I'd rather, you know, tell the truth, be brutally honest early, right, then have to deal with the repercussions later. And so I just, you know, a few years ago, I just sort of got into the habit of that. That was probably my— in all the roles that I served throughout my 27 years, that was probably the one thing that stood out the most. And, uh, but it took me a while to overcome it.

Wow. I guess it does take courage as well, especially, you know, if your superior is a flag officer or something like that, to tell them, hey, sir, ma'am, yes, I know what you're trying us— asking us to do, but with resources we have, it just cannot be done.

I think, I think you should— I think good leaders always have a little bit of fear in terms of letting their, you know, their people down, the people that work for them, or their customers. So if you're in IT modernization, like I— like you're modernizing and you deploy products and services, you should have a little bit of a healthy fear about disappointing that population, right? Because I think that becomes the fuel to keep you going and to innovate and always strive to do better.

True. Wow. Now, uh, let's talk about, uh, decision-making and accountability. Now, in combat, if you hesitate, that can be deadly, right? Somebody could die. In business, usually that's not the case, but they could lose money. How do you train yourself to decide under uncertainty?

Good question. Decision-making is leader business. The first question I often try to determine is when does the, when does the decision actually need to be made, right? When, right? How much time do I have to make this decision? Big difference between 5 minutes and 5 months, right? The next question I ask is, is this my decision to make? If it's simple, straightforward, if it's black or white, maybe the people under me can make the decision, right? A boss once, uh, he once told me, he said, Matt, if you're if you're solving easy problems, you're probably doing somebody else's job, right? And that really stuck. Now, on the other hand, if it's a, if it's a really hard or really consequential decision, that maybe my boss above me gets to make that decision. And everybody, by and large, has a boss, right? So often what I discover is that some decisions are not so urgent. They can, they can wait and there may be no cost to waiting. I mean, the decision's got to get made, but it may not necessarily need to be made right now. There are some decisions that are absolutely urgent and you just got to snap the chalk line, make a decision and move out. The amount of thinking and analysis that I put into decision making It usually depends on how much time I have. If it's my decision, it depends on how much time I have. If I have a little— if I have little time, I will go with my gut. I will fall back on my ethics, judgment, training, all of that. I'll use my intuition. If I have the luxury of time to ask one or two trusted members of my staff or a peer for their input or recommendation, I will go do that. The more time that I have to structure, um, uh, and put in some analysis, like the more time I have to make the decision, I will put in more time and more structure to really analyze the problem, cut through complexity, assess my options, weigh them, and then, and then make a make it— make a decision. So I think timely decisions are important, but that means different things, right? Timely could be 5 minutes, or it could be 5 months. The first thing a leader needs to do is figure out how much time you actually have. And then is it your decision to actually make? And then put in the level— and that should determine the level of rigor behind all the decision-making structure.

Wow, it really takes a lot of, uh, humility and courage to do that. And, uh, I'm guessing with time, as you keep doing it, you develop that intuition. I guess it goes into wisdom where it gets a little bit easier for, for you to make those decisions more quickly.

But sometimes all of those patterns can actually work against you, right? It creates bias. And, you know, and then some leaders that aren't so humble they just, you know, it's like, you know, I mean, you walk, you know, everybody knows who they are. They think they know everything, right? Because, yes, oh, I did this 2 years ago or 3 years ago, or it's always been done this way. But really, every new problem is unique and it has a unique set of circumstances. It's okay to fall back on those patterns and those mental models. That's— I mean, those are all good data points, right? But that should not be the only thing that drives your decision, in my opinion.

Very insightful, sir. I love it. So, uh, I really found out when I became a commanding officer, there is a real weight to command. No, it's, it's not just theory. You can feel it in your body at times. Uh, how did you personally deal with the weight of decisions that could impact the lives of your troops?

Well, you know, in the Army, especially in combat arms, in the infantry, we were, we were always taught and cultured into always lead from the front. Right. And never to ask your troops to do something that either you yourself have not done or at least would not, you know, would not be willing to do. Right. I always shared the hardship. I always shared the risk. And so that always made the decisions easier. Right. Because I was in it. It made that mission first, people always base decisions a little bit easier because, you know, I was one of those people that we're sharing the risk, sharing the hardship.

Hmm, very good. And what about— no, I think for most people, when they are junior officer, O-1 or 2 or 3, they very much tactical hands-on, and they don't do much at the strategic level of leadership. However, as an O-4, O-5, that's really when you start looking at the forest and not just the trees in front of you. What— how was the transition for you, sir? And what would you recommend for junior officers who are listening to us right now who would like to become more strategic in their thinking?

I think, I think a lot of, um, and it's not just unique to the, to the military, it's really everywhere going, you know, moving up that the chain of command, moving up that corporate ladder You know, it's a, you know, when you get to that level, the strategic level or the enterprise level, it is a very different vantage point. And I think new strategic leaders, they struggle. They often do not realize right away that the terrain is different. You know, they don't realize that at the strategic level, they now, have more time to think, to listen, and more often than not, they have more time to make decisions, right? And they're— because their decisions are— they, they're more impactful, right, at that level, right? It's either the decision's going to cost more money, it's going to affect more lives, right? It's a, it's a big deal at that level. So you, you don't necessarily want to rush those decisions. If you can help it. They don't often— those that struggle don't often realize that their role has changed from leading people to leading leaders, right? And leading systems and processes, right? That their role now is to provide good guidance, to provide resources and to remove barriers, right, and to facilitate their junior leaders' success. That is what strategic leadership, in my opinion, is, is all about. And then the other piece, if I might add, I think at the strategic level, the focus changes from internal to external. The most effective, in my opinion, the most effective strategic leaders are those that can manage effective external relationships. So I like stakeholder management becomes incredibly important at the strategic leadership levels.

And I'm sure that has been your experience too, sir. Once you get in command or, you know, you move up the ladder, you don't just have one boss, but, you know, sometimes you have 2, 3 bosses, and sometimes it's very difficult to please everybody you report to, either administratively or operationally or within your own community, and it, it becomes kind of a struggle to manage all of your bosses. Do you have any tips for any junior officers listening in now, uh, on how to please all of your masters?

Well, I— well, like, don't be like me. Don't have an irrational fear of pleasing your boss, right? That was, that was my thing, and it took me years to overcome that. I think the higher up you go, the more you, you have to get good at managing up. So it goes back to my comments about decision-making. So as I'm assessing this, the situation, and I'm looking at the decision in front of me, those decisions that I determine, hey, this is too big for Matt Paul, I got to refer this up. To my boss, right? My role at that point is, is manage— like, I got to manage up. I'm not just going to hand this to my boss and say, this is your problem. I'm going to do the staff work. I'm going to create the, the decision space. I'm going to present options, and I always want to present more than one option for my boss, right? You could take the red pill or the blue pill, right? Yeah, here are the pros and cons. That, you know, option 1 is going to cost X, option 2 is going to cost Y. Here are the risks. That is what good leaders do. Not only leading down, but leading up. Right. I think that's incredibly important. And in terms of managing multiple bosses, you just got to get good at time management. There's only so many hours in the day. You don't want to crush yourself. Right. You've got to be AI is a great tool. I use it a lot throughout lovegenai.mil.

I use it.

I've got— I build a lot of AI agents to do a lot of things to give me time back so I can do a lot of— so I can do a lot of external engagement, uh, especially with all the different people that I call, uh, boss.

Sure. And to make matter even more complicated, if you are married, your spouse is definitely one of those bosses too. And sometimes he or she will be asking for some me time, and it is a challenge. Do you have any advice for life-work balance?

I think, you know, as I mentioned up front, I, you know, first and foremost, I'm a father. Even though my children are a little bit older now, that's still my number one responsibilities. So I'm always there when they call. I am always— if I can be, I am always there. I always prioritize them, and certainly my wife and my extended family. Um, but, you know, work matters too, right? The mission matters. You know, mission first, people always. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta find a way to balance it out. It's never easy, especially if you're in a leadership position when you're not just taking care of yourself, you're taking care of others. People are looking to you for leadership. They want— I mean, presence matters. You've got to be present physically and otherwise, and you've got to find a way to balance all that out while being, you know, making the hockey game or making the family dinner. You've got to prioritize. Sometimes you're not going to always be— sometimes the family isn't going to win. And that's okay. But you've got to identify those important, you know, important events and you've got to prioritize them relative to your work. It's never easy. There's always going to be a tension there. The Army tends to look at these things over the course of a career. I don't know if it's— it may be different on the outside, but, you know, work-life balance. There are some jobs where you got to be all in, kind of like the job I'm in now. You got to be all in. And that might mean that in the, in the pecking order, sometimes your family is, is second based on what's happening in the job. But then there are other jobs where, you know, they're not, they're not as, they're not as intense. And the Army expects you to, to give back to your family. So that, that's what I love about the Army. That's why I've been in for 27 years, is that you kind of know, yes, what are the really hard jobs that you've got to be all in and what are the ones you're still, you're still working hard. But you've got some time back, right? And it's not as stressful and you can find those opportunities to be with your family and to fulfill those responsibilities.

That is quite powerful. And I am about 6 years behind you, so 21 years now. How did you feel when you passed that 20-year-old threshold? Huge relief?

Well, the Army has a retirement system that kind of starts at 20, right? So when you're growing up, you know, as a young officer, you know, especially when you cross the 10-year mark, it's like you've got your eyes set on, I want to make it to— want to make it to 20. Right. That's— that becomes your next goal. I've, you know, I think good leaders set goals for themselves. And I've done that since I was a very junior officer. Where do I want to be in 2 years, 5 years, 10 years? And I constantly refine my goals. Yes, your goals change in life. Especially as you, you know, you develop a family, you know, get married, have children, your, your goals and your priorities, uh, change. So for a long time, my goal was to, you know, to, to get, to get to 20. My family needed to be all in, right? So that was a family decision. Hey, we're at 10. Do we want to go another 10? Are we all in?

Yes.

Are we going to take this journey? Because it's really, you know, it's it's not just the soldier serving, the whole family serves, right?

Yes.

It's, it's hard. It can be at times, at times it could be hard on family. Everybody makes sacrifices. So got to 20 and then it was certainly quite a bit of relief as far as retirement goes. But then it's like, okay, well, for me it was how do I— I wanted to stay in. I wanted to continue to advance and to assume more levels of responsibility. But it started to really— my focus was more about how do I give back to the next generation? I want to be a better mentor to the next generation, junior soldiers, junior leaders, you know, civilians that, that work for me as well, take, you know, you know, helping them with their career progression. Um, and doing things like, you know, writing the book, like all of that, it's really, you know, I'm gonna be, you know, I don't know how long I'm gonna live. But you know, I, there will, I have an expiration date, right. And so I want to leave the world a better place than how I found it. The next generation to be successful. I want the Army to be successful long after I'm gone. So for me, when I crossed that threshold, 20 years, last 7 years has really been all about— all about giving back.

That's powerful. That is so powerful. Talking about reward, one thing I really loved doing when I was commanding officer was to write a letter of appreciation to the spouse of my sailors because it's true, it's not just the sailors serving, it's their spouse and their children too. It's incredible. Wow. And talking about developing the next generation of leaders, hopefully that's what we are doing on this podcast too. Part of my motivation for doing this. It's, it's really incredible when you first, especially I started as an, uh, enlisted, right? I was an E-1 21 years ago. And then by some miracle, you are now a senior officer in the most powerful Navy in the world. And basically I am looking at myself back then. I have become the person I was looking up to. And I'm like, I've got to give back to the next generation. Absolutely have to. I do not have a choice. But wow, that is quite powerful. So let's talk about the book now. I must say, this is one book I haven't read yet. Usually I read all of the books before I interview the author. I didn't have time. I'm gonna get the book tomorrow or day after tomorrow. But from everything I've read, and thank you for having such a fantastic website too, you do have a lot of information on your website. So the book kind of provides a ground-level account of a 21-day assault to Baghdad.. It captured both the tactical execution but also the human dimension of war. Now, having said that, sir, why did this book have to be written? Damn Fine Soldiers: The Epic Story of Task Force 2, Tac-7 Infantry, and the 21-Day Attack to Baghdad That Changed Modern Warfare.

Well, it's a story about soldiers, damn fine soldiers. It's a story about not only heroes like those of Sergeant First Class Paul Smith, the late Sergeant First Class Paul Smith, the first Medal of Honor awarded in the Global War on Terror. But we also tell a story of all of those unsung heroes, those that you wouldn't otherwise know about, but they made a difference, right? They were critical.

Yes.

To the mission. So that's the story we tell. And it's a military memoir. We try to put the reader in our shoes, you know, in the turret, in the dirt. And we want you to experience what we experienced. We want you to feel what we felt. Right. And then you can sort of draw your own conclusions about, you know, war, how, you know, how things turned out in places like Iraq, like, but we tell our story, right? And Scott and I, the co-author, we've been, we've been, we've been writing this book for 23 years. Like, we're really slow, slow writers. But we, you know, for us, it's all about, we were, we were not in a big hurry and we just wanted to get the story right. We wanted it to be accurate. We wanted to tell the right stories. Um, you know, so we couldn't talk about 900 people, but we did, did pick out, uh, quite a few great, um, great soldiers, great Americans who played, you know, key roles, uh, during the mission. And, you know, we just thought now the time was right to tell the story. When Russia invaded Ukraine, uh, a few years ago, that was sort of the— for us, that was sort of the trigger. It's like, well, You know, this is kind of important from a national security standpoint. Yeah, it was sort of a seminal moment, you know, that in national security and in the profession of war, things that we, that, that we do. Um, it's probably a good opportunity for us to just put the story out there. It was the Army's last large-scale combat operation. Like we've been very operationally engaged for many years, right? Uh, between Iraq and Afghanistan and other contingency operations. But that's different, right? Those are, those are not to under, undervalue that, that, but it's a different, it was different kind of mission, right? This was 2003, March, April 2003, the Army's last large-scale combat operation. So the way you plan for that, the way you execute that type of mission is just fundamentally different from how we've operated for all the years, that followed. And so we want to bring some of those lessons, some of those stories back so the new generation can learn from it.

That's really, really powerful. So what responsibility do veterans have to document history accurately like you've done in the book before it is lost? Why is that important?

I think, you know, I think veterans have— I think, I think, you know, I'm a veteran, so I think, you know, we bear— as painful as it is, I think we bear some responsibility to tell our story, you know, to the next generation, to America who supports us. We are America's military. I think we owe it to them to tell our story. I mean, we— yeah, most history is shaped by veterans, right? So as painful as it is, I think it's incumbent upon us to tell our story so others can learn from it.

Wow. And I also love, sir, the look you had on your face. Yes, I am a veteran. It took me a while to accept that. So sometimes when you're in uniform, people come and say thank you for your service. Before, I was like, no, I'm not really, whatever. I didn't feel comfortable. But now I just say thank you. I do appreciate this and go about my day. And I encourage my mentees to do the same because, yeah, we do wear the uniform of our country. And I think the work we do is just amazing. I think it's less than what, 1% of people who would be eligible to join the military does now. And it's all voluntary military, Army, Navy, Air Force. And it's really amazing the work that our brothers and sisters do. Uniform. And somebody like you being a historian and making sure nobody forgets it, I think that is, that is huge. Do you believe they— would you be open for a movie deal with Hollywood?

Well, that's— I don't want to get ahead of my skis.

I—

what, what I want to do is make sure that first and foremost that the book, that it can roll out. Um, yes, people can people can read it, uh, and learn from it. I, um, you know, I, I don't want to speculate what might happen beyond that, um, but I mean, it is a great story, right? And, you know, obviously up to, uh, those in Hollywood or wherever else to make that, that business determination.

Yes, yes. So what leadership moment in the book still stays with you today? It's been, what, 24 years later?

Yeah, I think so many, but I, I think the one that probably stands out the most would be, um, you know, the immediate, the immediate fall of the Saddam Hussein regime in Baghdad on April 9th, 2003. It was full of mixed emotions, right? Feelings of jubilation, remorse, but also the uncertainty about what, what comes next, right? And so my soldiers look to me to lead them in that uncertain moment, you know, to give them Purpose, direction, and motivation during that very uncertain time in, in the war.

That is powerful. And what did leading those soldiers in that 21-day assault teach you about command that you just will never get in a classroom or ebook?

I think we spoke a little bit about leadership versus management. You know, I think, you know, command is more— it's more leadership than management. I mean, you have to, you have to be able to manage your resources and understand what certain things do and how processes work. That's important. That's transactional. That's management. But again, leadership is an art. It's, it's not a science. Leading organizations is all about people. Take care of your people, genuinely care about your people and their wellbeing, and they will follow you anywhere. Good leadership is that thing that makes all the difference. If you lead your people well, everything else will fall into place. So when you have a tough mission or a tough project, that you need to get done with your team, start there with the people.

Hmm. So powerful. Now let's talk about that human element which you mentioned earlier. There's a powerful moment in the book where you are under fire, but you are holding to your unborn child's sonogram. What was going through your mind in that moment?

Well, In that particular moment, I didn't think I was going to— I didn't think I was going to survive, to be quite honest. I did have some hope, but more or less, I was resigned to my fate. I was incredibly fortunate to have made it through that situation, no small thanks to my great soldiers who helped me and got me through it. Uh, but, but that was a tough moment, and in that moment it reminded me that there is nothing more important in life than family, right? It is, it is what you think about in the toughest moments— your family.

Yes. Wow. Again, you said you are a father, you are a husband, and and you are a friend. That's, uh, powerful.

Wow.

Do— did you feel like, uh, just the promise of becoming a father when you had that sonogram, that kind of pulled you into the future in such a way that you refused to give up even though it looked like you may not make it? That there was a thing in you where No, I absolutely need to make it because I have to see this child.

Those were certainly thoughts that were going through my mind, right? Is, you know, thoughts of my family, my young family back home and just hoping and praying. You know, there are no atheists in foxholes. There aren't. Right. Um, you know, praying in that moment, praying to my God, the high— my higher power, uh, for a little bit of, little bit of help, um, in that moment. So I did have some hope, um, and I, and I, I did get— I, I did get— I did get through it. It, it wasn't easy.

That again, the people who are not in the military, they, they may watch that in movies, but it's so dramatic and stuff, they don't really fully understand what could go in somebody's mind at a moment like this. How did that make you feel, sir?

Well, I mean, it, it, you know, so as I said earlier, some things you, you can't control, right? And that, and that, that can be frustrating, right? Is, is, um, you know, when you're, when you're in that moment I, that moment I felt, uh, there was a lot of frustration, right? Um, I, because I couldn't control the conditions and, uh, I was not in a position to be able to control the, uh, the outcome. I had a, I, I had a dependency on others to get me through it. And, uh, and I, I hoped and prayed, you know, for a small miracle.

Yes. And talking about the human element too, you are right there in the moment. You are a soldier, you are the leader of your platoon, but you are also a husband and soon to become a father. What were you telling yourself during that time?

Say that again, BZ.

What were you telling yourself during that time?

What was I feeling?

Uh, telling yourself.

Oh, telling myself. Well, I, you know, I, um, I, I, I was trying to tell myself that, you know, hey, you, you've got to get through this, right? You've got it. You've got to get through it. Um, you know, it, uh, it was, you know, it was a It wasn't an easy moment, right? It, you know, it's kind of hard to talk about. But just telling myself, I've got to get through it. I've got a mission to accomplish. I've got to get home. But it was tough.

Wow. Thank you. Thank you for sharing, sir. And For leaders out there who have to carry both the mission focus but also the humanity at the same time, what do you recommend they do to balance that out?

So I think, I think humanity and, and fighting wars humanely is incredibly important. It goes back to our core Army values and our ethics. Right? We're all human, right? We have to have a healthy respect for our enemies, whoever they are, right? They're human too. And there are rules, right? And, and so we, we learn about that. We train on it. You know, it does not only matter what you do in war, but, but how you do it also matters. You know, staying true to those Values. I think, you know, I think that standard applies not only in the military but also in the private sector as well, in my opinion, you know, in the form of things like corporate social responsibility, conducting business responsibly, right, in ways that do no harm to the public or to the workers building the product. Or performing the service.

Hmm. And one thing I like about all I've read about the book, you don't just stop at that victory there in Baghdad, but you also examine the aftermath. What leadership lesson come from what happened after Baghdad?

Great question. As a leader, sometimes you simply cannot wait for someone above you to tell you what to do. You just need to take the initiative and start doing things using whatever resources you have to take action. Doing nothing and waiting was not the best option for us at that time. Uh, we had to transition from war to stability, post-war stability operations very, very quickly. Um, luckily the command climate and the culture within our organization absolutely embraced initiative. It embraced risk-taking. Um, and it, and the command never penalized leaders for taking the initiative when the circumstances warranted. Wow. And I think the best organizations would create that culture. Otherwise, you get a lot of paralysis and missed opportunities. True.

And if you could go back, sir, what strategic or leadership decision would you want leaders today to better understand?

Um, Well, I just want to say that, you know, if I could, you know, just emphasize that we at the time, we had a great team with great leaders, with great soldiers, and that made all the difference, right? We answered the call after 9/11, right? War is hard. Sometimes it's— well, oftentimes it's, It's quite messy, but we all rose to the occasion and we did the best we could for our country.

Well, and, uh, for those listening right now who are going to get a copy of a book, including myself, what do you hope we would feel or take away when we finish reading Damn Fine Soldiers?

Well, it, it, um It is a military memoir and the way we wrote it, we, we really do try to put the reader inside of the action. So as I said, you know, in the turret and in the dirt, right? My hope sincerely is that when you read it, you experience what we experienced. You feel what we felt, both good and bad. Right. I want readers to learn something, but more importantly, that they walk away from the experience with a sense of pride in their military and pride in their country.

Well, the last question I'm going to ask you about the book is, how do we ensure that the sacred sacrifices of your soldiers are never, never forgotten?

Well, I think first and foremost, read the book. That's probably the best answer. Learn about their sacrifice, all the sacrifices that all of those damn fine soldiers made. And then you tell their stories, right, to others. The, the profit that is earned from the book goes to TAPs, the Tragedy Assistance Program. For survivors. So, and they have a great mission. They provide resources for bereaved families of fallen soldiers and veterans. So in a way, the book will have an even broader and longer impact in this space, right? Honoring the sacrifices of our, of all of our service members, past, present, and future. Wow.

And for everybody listening, especially those outside of the military, our freedom in America is definitely not free. And we are so grateful for the sacrifice of those who've given their lives for our freedom. Uh, I know we are out of time, sir. Could I ask you one more question from the audience before we end the show?

Yes, sir.

So, uh, Daniel Young say, uh, leading a 21-day attack to Baghdad is about as leadership under fire as it gets. For leaders today facing complex civilian crisis, disaster, cyber, information chaos, what is one lesson from Task Force to Task 7 that transfers directly to decision-making when everything is volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous? So how do you make decision when it's chaos all around you?

Again, that's a great question. I think it comes back to the, the conversation that we had about decision-making. Uh, know if it's your decision to make, know how much time you have to make the decision. I think that's— a lot of people waste a lot of time, um, on decision-making when they don't know how long they have. They rush to failure, or they make— or they or they make a decision that was never theirs to make. Right. So, yes, you got to do those two things first. Figure out what structure works for you. Right. For me, I'm sort of— my brain is wired on the military decision-making process. Right. That's how I was taught to make decisions. Right. Either in a very deliberate way or a very hasty sort of way. But it applies some structure that allows you to cut through the chaos. And the fog of war, because there will always be imperfect information in times of complexity, whether you're on the battlefield or even in the boardroom. There's always going to be unknowns, unknown unknowns, risks, right? That, you know, things that you can't control. So you have to have a structure to cut through all of that, weigh your options, right? And then, and then do something. Right? You've got to do something. Because doing nothing— otherwise, doing nothing becomes the decision. And sometimes that's not going to be the decision that you want.

Wow.

So well said. Well, well said. So as we finish the podcast today, sir, if you had one and only one day to live, what would you have liked your final contribution to be? I know you were already there at one point in your military career, but thinking about your legacy, what do you want to say?

Well, I, I, um, like I said, we all have, um, we all have an expiration date. I, um, I, I just want to leave the world better than I found it. So I want to give back. I want, you know, I want to make sure that I communicate or, you know, impart my lessons on that next generation.

Yes.

And I want to be remembered as somebody who cared and was, you know, humble in their approach towards leadership.

And with all of the problems we have in the world today, if you had a magic wand and you could solve any problem, what is the one problem you'd like to solve first thing tomorrow morning?

Oh, um, I would say, you know, you know, it may be cliché, but, uh, world hunger. I mean, everybody— I mean, that in Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

Yes.

Um, you got to eat, you gotta, you gotta be— you gotta drink. So water and food, yes, are important. And nothing else matters if you don't have those things, right? So if I could solve that problem, I would. I absolutely would.

Well, so, so we are at the very end, and, uh, the last question I'm going to ask is, uh, what can we do to add value back to you? Thanks so much for giving us your time and wisdom and being one of our master teachers today. How can we add value back to you, sir?

I would say, you know, keep telling truthful leadership stories. You're doing righteous things here, BZ. As I said at the outset, this is leadership is like outside of defense is often undervalued, underappreciated. I think it's so critical if we're going to lead our people, our organizations into a better future. We've got to build better leaders. So keep telling truthful leadership stories, not sanitized ones. Help normalize humility, responsibility, and moral courage in leadership, especially in complex times.

Powerful. Well, that's it, sir. And thank you so much for being with us today. Usually Usually I, I like to ask, uh, one last question. It only takes a second, but if you could go back, looking at the prestigious career you have had still in the U.S. Army, 26, 27 years now, when you look back when you were 17 years old or 18 years old, which advice would you give to the 17-year-old version of yourself, knowing what you know now and having lived out such an outstanding career in the US Army?

Well, if I were to, if I were to talk to the 17-year-old me, I would have probably told him to study a little bit harder in school and get better better grades. But honestly, have no regrets whatsoever. I've been very blessed. The last 27 years in service, 26 years of marriage, got two great kids. So I wouldn't do anything differently. For the most part. Certainly there's some decisions along the way that I probably would have done things a little bit differently. But Read more, study more, set more goals for yourself. That's the sort of advice I probably would have given the young, dumber version of me.

Well, thank you, sir. And is there a question I should have asked you that I didn't get a chance to ask before we end the show? Anything else you wanted to share today, sir?

No, I just want to— again, I want to thank you so much for having me on. Your, your, your podcast here. I think, like I said, what you're doing here is righteous, talking about leadership and how to apply leadership, uh, to achieve successful outcomes. And I just, just so humbled, uh, to be a part of the discussion today.

So thank you, I appreciate that. And I like to end on an optimistic note. So what is one thing you are feeling optimistic about these days?

Oh, I, uh, well, I did pretty well in the NFL Draft. I— so, wow. Yeah, um, so I'm a Dallas Cowboys fan. I think they earned an A grade, um, in the draft, so I'm, I'm pretty, I'm pretty optimistic about, um, uh, the fall.

So you're Dallas, that's wonderful. At least they're doing better, they're doing better than the than West Point. That's, that's good.

Go Army, beat Navy.

Yeah, yeah, we'll see, we'll see, we'll see. But this is a lot of fun. It's really been a great privilege talking to you, sir, and I definitely want everybody listening right now to get a copy of the book, including myself. And it's, it's really great, uh, writing down the history of American heroes, right? Soldiers, airmen, um, and Marines, and, uh, uh, all of those who really put their lives on the line for all of us. So thanks again for doing that, sir. It's definitely God's work, and we do appreciate that. Thank you.

Thank you.

All right, everyone, this is the last, uh, podcast for today. And again, I hope, uh, you get a copy of a book and, uh, follow, uh, Colonel, uh, Matthew Paul. And, uh, that's on LinkedIn, Matthew-Paul. -100966149. And again, the book is called Damned Fine Soldiers: The Epic Story of Task Force 299 Infantry and the 21-Day Attack on Baghdad That Changed Modern Warfare. All right, tomorrow I'm going to be back. Give me about an hour or two, I will tell you who I am interviewing tomorrow. I only have one interview, and, uh, probably on Saturday, day after tomorrow, I will go back to our study on the Book of Proverbs. Chapter 22 is what we are doing next time. We did 21 the other day. This is not a religious study or anything, it's just looking for ancient wisdom and leadership lesson from the Book of Proverbs, a book written more than 2,000 years ago, but that is still relevant in 2026 today. All right, that's all I have for you. Thank you for watching. Again, great thanks to the Colonel for talking to us today. Bye for now, and I hope to see you tomorrow.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again. For more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.