S5:E109🎙️LIVE with Pavithra Venkatesan (Multi Tracks Audio)

¡Hola!

Hi, I'm John Maxwell. When the top companies in the world are looking for trainers, speakers, and coaches, there's one name that stands above the rest, and that's Maxwell Leadership. Our certified team members have gotten proven results for companies all over the globe, and our reputation, I'm proud to say, is second to none. Some of our members have risen to the top of their profession, including the one you're going to meet today. I proudly introduce you to my friend Bob Fabien Zinga.

Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ, where we help you lead with purpose and success. Leadership with Impact. If you're ready to grow into the kind of leader others want to follow, this podcast is for you. If you're determined to elevate your success and leave a lasting legacy, this podcast is for you. As my mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell, reminds us, everything rises and falls on leadership. Our goal is simple, to inspire you, challenge you, and equip you with insights that can transform the trajectory of your leadership journey. Welcome aboard to Welcome to another episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast with Coach BZ. We live in the same world, but we don't experience the same reality. We've been taught to focus on what's visible, what we can control, what we can interact with. We've been taught to focus on what's visible. What's happening around us, what we can measure, what we can control. But that's not what shapes your life. What shapes your life is the inner world that you operate from. Two people can live in the same moment and walk away with two different experiences. This is even applicable for twins who share the same womb. Because your life is not just external circumstances and the situations around you. It's driven by your state of inner consciousness. And most people sadly never see this. They try to change their behaviors to change the external circumstances, their habits, their environment. They try to change their life by changing their habits, their behavior, their environment, but they don't see what's driving all of this. It's their inner patterns. This is what Archetypal Remembering does. It clearly helps you to your inner patterns. It helps you to see your inner world with precision, so you're not just reacting to your life, you're understanding what is shaping the experience of it. In ancient traditions, this practice is called self-inquiry, and unfortunately we've lost it. If you're ready to truly understand the inner world that is shaping your life, read Archetypal All right, we have a very special show for you today.

And before we get started and I bring on our guest, Coach Paddy, let's first do what is our custom. We call it a moment of gratitude. Every time we start a new show, we want to take just a moment to be grateful. There is so much happening out there. Sometimes it looks like the world is on fire. There is so much chaos. But in the midst of all of that, what are you grateful for? So if you would maybe close your eyes, put yourself in your happy place. For me, it's probably by the beach somewhere. Take a deep breath, calm down your nervous system, and think about one thing you are grateful for in this moment. What are you grateful for? Today I am really grateful for my family and for my friends. I think there is really nothing in life more important than relationships. I've read a lot of books and I've heard a lot of stories, but when people are in their deathbeds, I've never heard of anybody saying, "Hey, I want to go back to work. I want to make more money. I want another car. I want another jet." No, no, no, no. It always comes down to the precious relationships you have, which adds meaning to your life. So let us know in the chat, what are you grateful for right now? And let us know where you are joining us from, what city, what state, if within the US, and if outside of the US, which country. And also, if you have a question for Coach Pavi, please type it in the comment and we will answer live. So let me see if I can properly introduce our guest today. Today we are going to be talking about archetypal remembering, Right, we're discovering the self beneath the role. Uh, in today's world of AI acceleration, constant pressure, burnout, hyperconnectivity, and nonstop performance culture, many leaders are silently asking themselves, who am I beneath the role, beneath the title, beneath the rank of a career? This conversation will explore the hidden behavioral patterns shaping leadership, relationships, decision-making, emotional intelligence, and identity under pressure. Pavithra Venkatesan brings a unique perspective that bridges structured technical thinking with deep human insight. After building a successful career in software engineering, she transitioned into transformational coaching and authored the groundbreaking book, Archetypal Remembering: Navigating the Inner Turbulence of Feminine Intelligence. And I'm pretty sure that is applicable to masculine intelligence as well. All right, her work helps individuals recognize unconscious relational and behavioral patterns in real time so they can lead, communicate, and live more consciously. Part of what we're gonna be, uh, learning today is, uh, why behavior patterns repeat under pressure, but also how leaders can remain deeply human in increasingly digital environment. All right, so ladies and gentlemen, without any further ado, please help me welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast, the one and only Coach Pavitra Venkataraman. All right, Pavith, how are you doing today?

Good, good. Thank you for having me here, Coach Busi.

Absolutely, this is really a great pleasure and honor to be talking to you. Just to get started, what is one thing you are grateful for today?

I am grateful for good health, and I'm grateful for my family support for me to be able to do this.

Yes, yes, that is so powerful. I think without good health, you really don't have anything, do you, man? Uh, is there something about you that most people may not know when they first meet you?

Um, we— a lot of us put on a lot of identities we carry throughout the day, and the easiest identity that I show to people is generally a very warm welcoming person. So there is a pattern beneath all that. So the recognition, the pattern recognition power that I carry is something that I always downplay. That is usually what gets downplayed in my relationships and my interactions with people. And then when I— when they come to know about me and this side of me, they're like, what? That has been my usual interaction and my experience with people.

That is quite insightful. So what first made you realize that human behavior and emotional patterns, like you mentioned, fascinated you more deeply than technology itself?

I realized that the more I focused on technology, the external world, I realized that I was missing something. There should be something that is deeply internal, as much as I— as we would love to explore the external world. So I imagined for a second that, what if my body, what if my psyche, what if I am myself a huge part that needs to be researched and understood? What if that needs inner, um, you know, delving deep into the inner terrains of myself Yes. And how, how fascinating that would look like. Anything fascinating as I would be writing a code, um, I would be exploring a new piece of technology.

Yes.

That's how much it felt initially when I started learning about myself and understanding about myself and the patterns I carry. All of us do. So it was very fascinating for me to understand that the more we expand in the external world, there is a deeply, deeply unexplored parts of internal world that is left to explore.

Man, that is quite a, I guess, a leadership journey, but really a self-discovery journey, isn't it?

Yes, that's what I would put.

You began your career in software engineering, and then you transitioned into coaching and archetypal work. What type of internal shift happened inside you during that time?

Uh, I wrote this, uh, I wrote about this in my book. It was a pivotal moment of becoming a mother, and the motherhood made me realize that what I put out in the world is not truly who I am. Then that made me start that made me question myself. Then who am I beneath all these masks that I'm putting into the world? Who am I beneath all these patterns? Yes, I exist and I show up every day and I have a life, I have relationships, I have people, and I don't show the same face to two different people. Then who am I between those two faces? My daughter made me question that, and motherhood as an experience made me question that.

That is fascinating. Was there maybe a specific life experience or relationship or emotional turning point that kind of forced you to slow down and rethink how people operate beneath the surface? Because it is true, most people, when you meet them at work or the office or church or wherever, they tend to show you the best version of themselves, just the surface. It's almost like everybody is wearing a mask, really. But what, what, what made you kind of slow down and try to dig deeper?

The performances that I held up, the masks and the faces that I held up did not work in motherhood. It did not. When you are facing it, it's not just applicable to motherhood. I'm just talking about my experience here, but if you personally had a very deep experience in your life that you can never compare to any other experiences that you had, that is your pivotal moment personally. So that is the reason why you— the, the performances drop at one point, because as the experience gets more profound, your masks and your performance drop, and you see see yourself more clearly, as no one has ever seen you in the world. Because, wow, the face and the, the pattern, the, the self beneath the pattern, no one else has witnessed in me except me. That makes me feel like, okay, I only— I'm there for myself to do that. No one else can do that in the world. So that makes me more personally accountable towards myself.

Interesting. I have read a lot of books and a lot of very successful people, when you read their autobiography, you find out that they also had a lot of doubts. But of course, most people have no idea. Many high performers appear very successful externally while they struggle internally. It's a story I've heard over and over and over again. Many even have what they now call the imposter syndrome, right? They really deserve to be where they are, they are really excellent at what they do, but they still wonder, do I really deserve it? Am I good enough? They almost like, I am an imposter, what am I doing, doing this, this, this, this job? So did you personally experience that tension?

Yes, absolutely. Uh, when I first became a mother, I realized that I wasn't given the nurturing and the developmental and, uh, things that I need for my earlier development. So I realized there was a big void there. So my question was, how can I ever give something to a child which I was never given? I never had that. How do I give it to a child? Wow, that was the most profound question. And I was lingering to the lack side of it, which means that, okay, I never had that, but I'm not be— I'm never going to be able to give it to my daughter. That is the imposter syndrome that you, that you are also talking about. That hit me differently on a personal level, but, um, it might hit differently for many in, in different places for many people. So the personal experience for me was, how can I give something to my daughter when I never received it? So when I started delving deep into that, that's when I realized I don't need to have something in order for me to give something to the world. Yes. Then where am I getting that from? If I never received it and I'm giving something to the world Where is it coming from? It must be coming from a source of abundance, isn't it? There is a source in me and all of us which we tap into, but we were never showed, we were never told that it exists.

Mm-hmm.

So how do you figure that out? How do you know where to tap that from? Then I started digging more into the patterns. And the faces that I had, the identities that I held— the identity that I held, identities or identity that I held in a moment helped me in that moment, and then I returned back to myself.

Hmm.

Where is— then what is the self? What is that abundant self that I can tap into to give something to the world that I never received?

Yes.

So that is how the imposter syndrome turned into something that is abundant and overflowing. Now I do give. Now I know how to give, but I do give from overflow. But I don't just empty my cup, keep on emptying my cup, keep on emptying my energy, energy levels to serve other people. I do give from abundance. I do give from the you know, the overflow of energy and love from within me, whatever you call it.

Wow, that is quite insightful. And during that moment, what was some of the first, I guess, emotions that kind of hit you the hardest during that time?

Was it maybe disbelief, fear, confusion, or Definitely fear and, um, the imposter syndrome of not being good enough has been there, uh, has existed long, long enough. Yes, um, the feeling of fear of not being enough, the feeling of fear of, um, what if, what if I don't matter? And there's also this, this fear of performance, because when you are performing instead of being just yourself, you also have this fear of what if people can see that I can— I, I perform and I'm not living. What if I'm not truly living and just performing?

Wow.

That is the fear underneath all that, that just gives you the nerve-wracking Yes.

So how did you overcome that fear?

Overcome that fear as in it keeps repeating in spirals, healing and—

There's a pattern.

Yes, there is a pattern, the pattern recognition, the personal development.

How did you break the pattern?

Um, I broke the pattern the moment I realized that I, I, I was already given all this, but I was never shown how to give, how to do this.

That's powerful. Hmm.

What if, what if I already had everything that I need, but I just didn't realize that I had everything that I need.

That's really powerful. You remind me of the mantra I learned from one of my coaches: I am more than I think I am. That's powerful. Wow. All right, so what did you learn about yourself during the process of writing your book Archetypal Remembering?

I realized so much that I— the, the, the thought about writing never occurred to me before I wrote my first book. Wow. So the, the fact that I can write and I love writing made me realize that, okay, so the, the patterns underneath and the, the writing and the way that it comes out It was altogether a new experience for me. That side of me I have never met. The writer in me, the, the thought leader in me, the, the, the thought process of what if I can give something to the world through my personal experience—

that thought never occurred to me except when I wrote my first Wow, that is powerful. Okay, we have our first question from the audience. Daniel says, as we move into an era of agentic AI where systems can plan and act with much more autonomy, how can leaders make sure that emotional intelligence stays the master logic layer over these automated systems instead of letting the speed and scale of AI outpace our human empathy and judgment? Good question.

That is a great question, right? Because I get asked a lot about AI and what are we doing with AI and the world, the way the world is progressing so fast. Yeah, sometimes it gives us some, you know, um, you might even feel like nauseous, internally nauseous, like where am I going? Right, yes, that's a great question. Um, I would, you know, the, the, the way that I look at AI is AI exists and it takes me forward, but it is still created by humans, humans with personal and emotional intelligence. Yes, if you have used different AIs like ChatGPT or any other AI you can literally see— if you see the pattern beneath, because I study patterns— if you look at the pattern beneath the AI, you can literally see that personality of that AI coming out that, that mirrors the creator. If you had created that AI consciously, knowing that it is going to serve the world, right, you can literally see that in it when you're using it. How it drives you, how it takes you forward, how it helps you, or whether it controls you.

Yes.

So consciously choosing the AI systems that you use every single day, starting from ChatGPT to any other tool, knowing that how it is steering you towards your own personal journey and how are you accountable towards the others in the environment and the world, that creates a difference. In using the AI. And that is where the emotional intelligence factor comes in. Knowing yourself, knowing that even though I'm being steered by AI era, AI is still created by a human, whether consciously or unconsciously, that is a different question. That is a different area to analyze and talk about. That's a different topic altogether. But what do I have is the tool of discernment. The tool of discernment helps me choose whether I'm being controlled by AI or I'm using AI as a tool and letting it steer my growth.

Hmm, that is quite powerful. Okay, let's talk about patterns under pressure. You often say that behavior becomes predictable under pressure. Why do stress and perceived threat expose our deepest pattern, you think?

Because under stress, we have very less room to perform. You're given a lot of resources, but under stress, those reduce to the mere amount that you might barely need. So when I talk about resources, not just physical— your mental resources, your physical resources, everything. So, uh, when you are under stress You're given very less. You can use very less. So, wow, the energy and the fuel that you need to put up that performance, to hold that identity that you want to show to the world, comes drastically down. And whatever that you are inside is going to reflect out. So the people around you are naturally going to see you in your rawest self. The raw self, the self within you.

Hmm, that is powerful. Well, it reminds me of a Bible verse that says, uh, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. So you can only speak what is in you. And usually under pressure is when people get to know who the real you is, isn't it?

Absolutely. That is where— that is why the pressure and the stress can be your ally. In letting you know who you are. Because the most hardest moments of your life show you who you are without any filters. And from there, it's again my, my ability to discern and my ability to analyze what do I want to consciously keep and what do I want to consciously put to rest.

Yeah. I like that you said consciously and unconsciously. I think a lot of the patterns you're talking about, many times people have those, but they are completely unconscious about them, right? They have no idea, no awareness, do they?

We've been taught that way because it was easier to believe someone. Imagine that you grew up with someone, you were once a child, you were told this is good, this is— that shaped your inner world.

Yes.

So we've— there are like many psychologists and the— in, in the inner work area, they widely talk about the inner child work. The reason why this is so popular is because your development starts at a very young age. So beliefs and your patterns that you carry today and the choices that you make and the decisions that you make, um, in your personal life or your leadership wherever the area is, is being shaped by who you were told that you are.

Yes.

But we never took the opportunity to understand that what am I beneath all that? Who am I beneath all that I've been told that I am?

That is really powerful. So basically, I believe Tony Robbins, uh, teaches us something very similar. So what you are saying, in other ways, you can unlearn some of those patterns.

That's a powerful, powerful word— unlearning. Most of my adult life and my experiences has been about unlearning what I learned unconsciously. Wow. Because I did not have a choice when I was told that I am this and I am that. So that clearly sits in my unconscious pattern because I did not consciously choose it.

Yes.

So the question is, what am I consciously choosing?

Wow, that's something. So in your experience then, what are some of the most common unconscious pattern leaders repeat, especially during times of conflict or uncertainty?

Um, masking of fear and the imposter syndrome tells you something, and The fear of success and the fear of failure, it's all this basically the fear with different, different filters and colors. That's it.

Yes.

Masking the fear and showing up confidently is something that we all do. Leaders have to do that a lot. But what are you suppressing when you are suppressing that fear and showing up in the world as a leader, as a brave, putting up that you face will tell you what it costs you in your leadership journey.

Wow, that's something to think about. Yeah, because I know, for example, in the military— I am in the US Navy— if you are the leader and there is chaos all around you, you really want to appear calm and collected, right? Because if you are not, if you start panicking, then everybody who's under you is going to panic too. They're going to think the world is coming to an end when in reality you want people— usually people don't step up to their potential. They tend to fall back to their training. That's why in the Navy we tend to fight like we train and we train like we fight. So from what you just said, so I guess there is a performative— I don't know. Function to that where you try to look a certain way so that you will build trust or have people be calm and be able to do their job the way you train them. But then, yeah, I also see your point that it's so performative, it's not really your true self. I guess the question I have for you, how do you bridge that?

Gap? A good leader, on, in a, you know, on a very conscious leadership, he creates a safe space for people around, but he breaks down privately. That is for the breaking down privately is for him. It is the most authentic and the most conscious part of him that is coming out. Once you witness that privately and then you lead your way, you naturally create a safe space around people. But when you suppress your fear and you tell yourself that this is me, I'm not supposed to break down, I am not supposed to be vulnerable, that is where it's going to cost you. That's why I said what you suppress through suppressing that fear will cost you in your leadership journey.

Wow, that is very, very powerful. Thank you so much for sharing that, because I'm sure there are things that we've seen even on TV, in the magazine, on social media. You see very intelligent, self-aware people, very, very strong, powerful, but they tend to repeat the same destructive relational or leadership cycles over and over again.

Why do you think That is because the patterns, they exist in cycles. The moment you realize that, yes, I have witnessed that pattern, I have— I understood it completely, and then I go on with my life, that's when the patterns repeat. Because understanding something and changing something in real time takes two different energies. And it's two different— it's two different work. Yes, I can understand about myself. I know that I'm this, I have these patterns, and I can— and I can try to understand that with my— with my logical brain.

Yes.

But witnessing that and accepting that to be a part of me is different. That is why people keep repeating the patterns in their life. Even though they know why they are doing what they are doing.

That's interesting. Now, that's at the personal level. What about at an organizational level, like the culture of an organization? How do fear, insecurity, ego, and unresolved emotional experiences from members within your organization quietly shape the culture of your organization?

So the moment you realize that you have the power to make decisions that impacts the other, the, the power, does it give you ego? Does it give you pride? Or does it give you responsibility? If that gives you responsibility, you take personal accountability for your own inner leadership journey. That's what I would call. There's a leadership journey that is external, out, that you project out in the world, but there is an equally deep inner leadership journey that's going on with every leader out there. The more profoundly you take the inner experience, the more profound the external experience is going to be for you as a leader.

Say that one more time, please. Wow.

The more profoundly you take your inner leadership experience the more profound your external leadership experience is going to be.

Man, that is powerful. All right, so have you noticed patterns common among high-achieving professionals in technology, like you used to be a software engineer, or just corporate leadership in general?

Absolutely, absolutely. I have witnessed it. Um, so when I was working with the team, I actually did see a lot of dysfunction. So when it was, uh, when, when it was the leader's turn to act on it, there was actually very less, uh, you know, transformation from the old pattern to the new pattern. Instead, they want to keep the pattern alive. It is very common in leadership. I have witnessed it. I have personally experienced it myself. Working as a software engineer. So it is like you're either focused on productivity or you're focused on values and the community and the people around you.

Yes.

So it does— it rarely exists equally in an organization.

Hmm. That is quite insightful. You know, I guess I am in two worlds, right? High tech and the military. And I think in both worlds, people often operate in constant vigilance mode, right? Especially in the military when you are deployed, especially in a war zone, it's like 24/7, high tempo, nonstop. You kind of have to just, I guess, to keep yourself alive and to protect your fellow sailor. But what does prolonged survival mode thinking do to relationship and decision-making?

The prolonged survival mode, it looks like success on the outer world, right? Yes, I know I have mastered the survival. Now I know The moment you hit that ceiling of I know what works, that is where the most patterns live. The moment you figure out that I know this works and I don't have to change it, yes, that is where the organizations, they usually slack. They work and work and work, they are innovative, they figure out a way, they figure out what works, I, and I just want to keep it. I don't want to touch it. But the patterns doesn't work that way. The patterns form, and then there it calls for de-patterning. It calls for breaking the pattern.

The—

that is the moment, the pivotal moment many leaders fail. When it takes— when it— what it takes for, for a leader to break that pattern is the courage and the trust in themselves that I can build this again, or I can restructure it again. So most leaders are— they fail, or they, they, they just pull back the moment things get intense and they have to break something that they formed.

Hmm, wow, that is quite fascinating. Can you maybe share an example where someone intellectually they understand a problem, but emotionally they remain trapped in the same pattern over and over and over again, even though they are aware that what is happening is not what they want?

Absolutely. So there was— when I, I can tell this from my personal experience, right? Like in a, in a leadership journey in an organization Um, when I was working as a software engineer in a team, there was this pattern of overworking and overextending. This was a known problem, but the delivery that we as software engineers, as engineers, we deliver intense projects, like really, we, the, the delivery was back to back. The project was like, no, we cannot stop. The moment it hit that ceiling of no, we cannot stop, a leader should question that. Is it really that? Do we— is it, is it real that we cannot stop, or is it just a pattern, or is it just an assumption that if I stop, this is going to be a threat? Hmm. The questioning of What if it can really stop and still be safe for me and my team and my organization? That possibility was never explored.

Wow. Hmm. That is something. I guess we get trapped into those cycles because that's what we've seen that worked yesterday or last year or my previous job. And you make the assumption That's the only way to get it done, isn't it?

Yes, because what you believe is not necessarily what is true. Yes, what is true has multiple layers beneath it. We have just seen one layer and one, one aspect of, okay, this works now. Yes, it's like a machine, right? You, you, you work and work on a machine You fix the machine and then you're like, no, let's not touch the machine because it keeps running. Yes, that's not how organizations should work. Organization is not a machine, man.

It's so simple but so insightful because basically I think for most people they tend to just react to whatever is happening emotionally. They don't even think about it. It's completely unaware. But it looks like what you are saying is we really need to spend some time to create space, right, where we can break that pattern and actually start thinking and start responding and not just reacting to what's happening, right?

Yes.

How do we create that space to allow us to break through those unconscious patterns?

First thing is, I hardly ever noticed in the world how we feel safe. Life sharing what we know and what we are with each other. We start with, how was your day? We start with, how, how is the weather? We never ask each other how we feel. That is a very, very basic, very basic element of forming trust, because you can talk to me about my life and how it looks externally. But if my inner world is never witnessed by a leader, I will never gain trust. Hmm. I will never gain trust.

Wow, that's powerful. All right, let's talk about emotional intelligence. I think it has a lot to do with this. One thing you've said in the past is leadership is revealed during moments of perceived fright. So it's not a fright, but it's a perceived fright. Can you unpack that for us?

What was that again?

Uh, you, you said that leadership is revealed during moments of perceived frights. That's, that's when the leadership reveals itself.

Yep. So let's imagine this, right? Uh, a leader can go through profound stress. A leader can go through The— there's a choice for, for a leader to either project it on, on the employees, on the organization, or the— or he keeps the chaos within himself. Accept the chaos, work with the chaos, see the pattern beneath that chaos, and only extract that lesson and act it out. If you want to give it a shape in the world, you can have— as a leader, you can have a lot of ideas in your mind, a lot of thoughts running to you. And then you also— you're also what the, the most— you're also the most one who, who faces the chaos. Yes, for your organization, right? So yes, I am taking in the chaos, but what am I giving out? To my organization? What am I giving out to my people?

Wow.

It's like you can look at a tree, for example. It takes in all the filth, but it gives out to you the fruit. It is out there in the nature. The pattern is out there in the nature. That if you look— if you want to understand leadership, you can look at a tree.

Wow, that's almost speaking like a, like a monk. But I, I guess for those people who spend a lot of time meditating and thinking, it kind of helps you, I guess, see things a little bit different, doesn't it?

Yes. So meditation is really— has been gaining more popularity between leaders lately, but there is one caveat to it I want to mention because I've I, I have done a lot of meditations. I have had my experience of it before, uh, I turned into pattern recognition. Because when I was going through the most chaotic and most profound moments of my life where this self-awareness revealed itself, I was turning a lot to meditation. And then I was expecting that this should fix me, this should keep me calm. Now, meditation is not a task and then you expect a result. If you're going to do that, you might as well do that as a task. It would never work for you. Meditation is the openness to sit with yourself and be ready to receive what comes out.

Yeah, wow. Now you may not want to answer this, but you said it was one of the most chaotic moment of your life. Most challenging. Are you open to share a little bit more? Again, you, you do not have to, but I feel like it could help a lot of people who are listening now.

No, that, that I am open to it. I don't have any problem because I wrote about this in my book. Um, when I became a mother, I just realized that I held a job, I had a perfect household, um, we are a family Everything looked fine outside, but internally I was like, this is not me. Yeah, except the motherhood, I wasn't able to relate to anything I felt, including my job. Why am I doing this? Just because I'm good at something? Why am I doing this? I never had the courage to question that. You can do something. If just because you can do something, you don't have to necessarily do it. Yes.

Wow.

So that was a chaotic moment that broke out in my life when everything fell apart, and this was just me standing here, and rest of my— looked— the rest of my life looked alien to me. I could barely relate to my choices, my decisions that I made in my life. And just one single moment of motherhood revealed all that for me.

Wow.

And from then on, I started making aligned choices.

Yes.

If it's not an aligned choice, I'm not making one.

Wow, that takes a lot of courage, doesn't it?

It does, it does. It's nerve-wracking, but at the end there is a profound acceptance of yourself that you would never get from anywhere externally, anywhere. Choosing yourself, choosing aligned choices for you is nothing compared to 1000 successes. That's why I— that, that is how I would define success in, in leadership or personal journey. Yes, success is the internal coherence with the external world.

So you are including your core values as well?

Yes, absolutely. My core values live with me, they don't live outside of me.

Wow. But I think for most people who may listen to you, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. However, we tend to be very comfortable in the Chaos, comfortable at our job, comfortable even in toxic environment. It's like, yeah, this is not best, but, you know, I'm making enough money to pay my, my bills. No, this is a devil I know. Over there, there's a devil I do not know. So things could get much, much worse. And then we kind of just, you know, get, uh, I don't know, I guess we're gonna start drifting, I guess. And, um, what did it mean to you to to really have that clarity, right, about who you are, your values. And no, you left a very great paying job because it just didn't align with who you were any longer. How did that feel like? I'm sure you were a little bit scared too, right?

Absolutely. I was dead scared. So it was not an easy choice to make. It was a nerve-wracking experience. And in a leadership journey, people rarely talk about this emotion called grief. Yes, the grief of leaving behind what you once held most dear to you, what you held like it's your life. I held my job like it's my life. I put on faces and I put on masks and I put on performance to just to keep the job because I thought that if I leave that, that's the end of the world. Was it my assumption or was it, was it truth?

Assumption, yeah.

But to me at that moment, it felt like, no, it's not my assumption, it's the truth. If I leave this job, I am never going to survive.

How did that affect your confidence?

Uh, the choices or the assumption?

I guess, uh, both.

So the assumption kept me in a loop of performative confidence. I can perform my confidence. If you ask me today, I can prepare a presentation, I can, I can do a very good presentation for you.

But did you ever feel like, okay, this is good for me, but how is everybody else going to feel about it? What about your old worker, your boss, or maybe even members of your family? Because in many families, for example, I know a few people, they became a doctor or lawyer just because their parents wanted them to. It's like, oh, this is a great place of esteem in our society. But the person themselves, they hate it every single day they had to go to the hospital or to the law firm. That wasn't who they were, completely incongruent with who they were at their core. However, they don't want to leave or change because they feel like everybody else is going to be embarrassed or ashamed of them. Did you have to face that too?

Absolutely. Absolutely. I had to face all of that. And that is the power of unlearning. Wow. Unlearning what I was told to do. Unlearning what I was told I should keep doing.

Hmm, wow. I guess you, you found freedom on the other side, didn't you?

Absolutely.

Wow, that is quite powerful. Did this kind of affect your spiritual life or your worldview? I'm not talking about religion, but just the Go away, you saw, okay, go on.

Yeah, spiritually, um, I am more connected to myself. There is a, there is a life force that is directing you out in the world, that is directing you today to— this morning I woke up and the life force is responsible for it because the life force still wanted to keep me alive in the world. You can call it anything, religion can give it different names. I'm not interested in any of that. I'm just talking only about the core life force that is interacting with me on a very intimate level.

Wow, that is really powerful. Did that also affect your mental health? I feel like people don't really prioritize mental health so much these days?

Yes, so the idea of mental health has been really, really, really, uh, it has evolved. Also, it has been truly misunderstood these days because of a lot of exposure to internet and content writers. They write it in, in way that they interpret mental health. Mental health is not just feeling good. Mental health is the ability to break down and then come back from it.

Hmm.

That you, you have the trust in you to break down and to come back from it.

Yes.

When you come back from it, you're not the same person.

Wow.

Every single time.

Man, that is really insightful. If I may ask, what did this experience teach you about leadership?

Leadership— the more I lead myself, the more I lead others. That's all leadership is for me. It all starts within me. I have different parts within me. I have a— I, I have I have a little girl, I have an adult, I have a teenager. You can call it different parts, or you can call it a different person. Imagine I'm the one who's leading all the parts within me. This is the concept behind archetypal remembering. Yes, that is when I realized that I am my own leader. And who am I leading is my patterns. I'm leading my patterns with compassion.

Wow, that is powerful. Wow. I think, was it Gandhi who said something? When you said that, I believe he said something like You are the one you've, you've been looking for.

Yes.

Wow.

So there are many, many leaders who spoke about this. There are many leaders— if you'll notice, this is a common pattern in spiritual leaders as well as leaders who consciously ruled the constitution, the country. Anything, you can look at them, they— you will see the similar pattern. Yes, they have this profound self-awareness of who they are. Hmm. What does that tell us is the more you know yourself, the more you know the other. The world is just a mere mirror reflection of who you are.

Yes. Wow, that is quite, quite powerful. I believe President Obama Obama said the same thing when he was running for office back in 2007, right? He says, "We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek." I guess that's the same philosophy that came out of Gandhi. Wow, that is quite powerful. Do you feel like this experience made you more compassionate, the way you look at others?

Yes, absolutely. Compassion for me, used to look like, um, if I just sit with someone and then, and then I say that, oh, I empathize with you, did you have this? That used to sound like compassion for me. Yeah, but that is just one part of compassion. Yes, you can sit with someone and have an empathetic experience and compassionate experience looking at them, looking at their suffering, but compassion for me is accepting. Just mere acceptance is compassion. When I started realizing that compassion is directly related to how much I accept of myself, my experience started to shift. Wow.

Like, uh, Tony Robbins, who's one of my mentors, he, uh, usually says that it's really in a moment, right? It is in your moment of decision that your destiny is shaped. It's just that one moment where you make up your mind that really shifts everything. When did you realize through that experience that you really had to change something? What decision kind of shifted your trajectory and changed your life from that experience?

The moment I was about to make this decision of, am I going to keep the old patterns alive, or am I going to choose a new pattern, a new conscious pattern that is aligned with myself? One of the decisions that I made was, yes, to pursue life coaching. You don't just make one decision and then just sit with with it, right? You keep making decisions over and over towards the newer version of you that you're about to become.

Yes.

So one part of it, one, one moment, one pivotal moment for me was when I chose life coaching over software engineering, which I always did, which I was doing well. I was getting paid. The next moment was my decision to write my book.

Wow.

So those two are the major pivotal moments I made my decision towards. Yes, towards breaking the old pattern and forming a new one, man.

So how are you different now because of this experience, or how has this changed kind of the way you define success today as opposed to what you used to define success before?

Success to me is, uh, my internal and external coherence. They, they meet at a point. If I am so successful externally but internally I am breaking, that is not success to me.

Yes.

And internally I am rich but externally I cannot prove myself in the world, or I cannot offer the world what I want to offer, that means that I'm depriving myself of the expression that I need to have, that I want to have. Expression is a birthright for each one of us. You express yourself in, in ways that you want to express yourself.

So, wow.

For me, success is internal and external coherence, making it a point. And it is very important for me to keep that balance. And, and that's when I, I can feel and internalize that success.

That's powerful. The last question I'm going to ask, and then I want to get into your book, is how would this experience now shape the legacy you leave behind? So now you are a mother, and how is that going to impact, uh, future generation?

I have, uh, I have a vision for healing and I have a vision for the world which is shaped— one of the, one of the, uh, one of the manifestation of that vision is my book.

Yes.

My hope is that we— my hope for the humanity is that we talk openly about what hurt us. We talk openly about how we feel. We talk openly about what are the experiences of our life and how it shapes us.

No shame, no judgment.

No shame, no judgment. Just safe space for all of us, between each one of us. And how that can happen is only through self-awareness. You realize your patterns, you you know your patterns, you're aware of your patterns. That is when you know yourself, you know the other.

Yes.

If you believe the survival identity that you put up is all you, that is not going to hold any safe space for anyone.

Hmm, that is quite powerful. Okay, this last section I want to talk about your book, Archetypal Remembering, right? Navigating the Inner Terrain of Female Intelligence. Why did this book have to be written?

This book had to be written because when I was breaking down, when I was in chaos, when I was in complete disarray deep within myself not knowing who I am. People call this, uh, they call it, uh, identity crisis. For me, it happened all at once. All the identities that I held crashed, crashed, and I couldn't hold any of that identity anymore. None of my performances worked. So when you hit that, what people call rock bottom— yes, something will hold you. You usually, if you're sensitive to life, you know, you realize that something is holding you. That felt like a mother's warmth for me, and I knew it was the feminine intelligence in me that was awakening, that was activating. When I mean feminine intelligence, it does not mean women. Feminine is— it's, it's a part of all of us, whether you— irrespective of your gender. So the moment I, I broke down and I was— I got up and I became this different person. From that point to this point, the feminine intelligence has been guiding me. That intelligence is there in all of us, and that is why this book had to be written.

That is quite insightful. And I think by feminine you really mean the warmth and the caring, whether you are male or female. But what do you think makes the difference though? For some people, when they hit rock bottom, they pretty much— it kills them. They're completely destroyed. They completely check out of life. Sometimes they commit suicide or they get drunk all the time or they get on drugs or whatever. Their life is completely destroyed. But then there are other people like you. You hit rock bottom and then you kind of lift up from there, right? And then you shine even brighter and you soar even higher. Than you have ever been. What's, what's the difference?

The difference is the awareness, the self-awareness, and the ability to make a choice and stick to it, right? What I meant by the feminine intelligence is anything that is internal, that you cannot see with your eyes. Yes, your emotions, your feelings, the core of who you are, that has a feminine base. Anything that exists out in the world, expresses out in the world, is masculine. That is how the world is formed. There is a light and, and dark. There is an yin and the yang. That's what the, the Chinese used to call that. So I realized that the world is more in need of this internal invisible parts of yourself that needs to come to light. They have stayed in the dark for so long, and with patterns, with recognizing patterns in you, this feminine intelligence is getting activated. You are realizing that you are more than what is visible. You're more than— you're, you're much more than what's visible. Going back to the point that you made, I am more than what I am, usually more than what I think I am.

Yes, right.

So when we say that, it looks fancy, it sounds fancy. Oh, I am more than what I, what I know I am. But what is it?

Mm-hmm.

What is it that you're more of? People rarely ask this question.

That is really powerful. So what would you say is the core message of the book Archetypal Remembering?

Naming something is remembering something. When you remember who you are, that is your start, that is your starting point of returning back to yourself.

Yes.

You remember, you are not learning more, you're not adding more. You're not expanding. You already have everything that you need. You're just remembering that who you always were. Because imagine this, you started from somewhere, you wanted to go to a destination, but the path led you somewhere else. Now, would you say that you are learning the new path or you're remembering the new path?

Hmm, I see. That's a different way of looking at it.

Wow. That is why this book offers you a map. This map gets you where you want to go.

Wow.

You're not creating a new path. You always knew that there was a path and you're just remembering it.

Powerful. So for the listeners right now in the audience, if they need to remember only one lesson from today's conversation, what do you want it to be?

It's you are more than what you are, you're more than what you look.

It's powerful.

So have the trusting yourself, the self-accountability.

Yes.

And knowing that you're more than what you look, what you, what you were told, is the first key step towards remembering who you are.

Wow, that is quite, quite powerful. And for the young women who are listening right now and trying to rediscover their own identity, what advice would you have for them?

Women are already waking up. Women are already realizing that they are more than the roles that they carry. I am, I am the testament to it. I held the role of a mother. I still hold the role of a mother, someone's wife, someone's daughter.

Yes.

But beneath all the roles, I am a woman.

Wow.

And being a woman, what does it mean in the world?

Yes.

That is what women are doing now, and my wish is for all the men and the women in the world to realize who they are. Yes, beneath all the roles that they hold.

So maybe one more advice: what about those leaders who are struggling in silence emotionally? What, what would you tell them?

Ben, why do you struggle in silence? Is because you assume that nobody is going to hear you. Have the trust that the world is ready to hear you. Yes, have the trust and show up in the world. Even if you want to break down, break down with one person you choose in your life. If you don't have that one person, choose a stranger. Wow. Hire a coach. Great.

Powerful, powerful, powerful. Hmm. Really insightful. Okay, the last question I'm going to ask about your book is, uh, how do you want your work to be remembered?

My— if everyone remembers who they are, then my work need not be remembered.

Wow, powerful. Well, we've already done like 5 minutes over our time. Can I get 5 more minutes before we, we land, or do you have to go? Okay, for this last segment, I kind of want to get into your head, your way of thinking, to see how you were able to achieve the success you were able to. Uh, one question I want to ask you is, what do you believe is one of the greatest lessons you have ever learned, whether in life, in leadership, general?

The greatest lesson is, uh, breaking the patterns does not mean that I'm breaking myself. When I break the patterns, I'm rebuilding myself.

Yes. So I am not my pattern.

I am not my patterns. That's, that's a, that's a better way of putting it. Thank you. I am not my patterns.

That's powerful. Yeah, because it's true. I mean, for example, me, I was born in Pointe-Noire, Republic of the Congo. So depending on where you come from, where you grew up, the culture, the mores and all of that, you kind of start believing certain things and you internalize them, right? And then you act a certain way, but you don't have to be that way, right? It comes a time where you can be conscious and you can decide 'Who am I going to become?' And, uh, wow, that is, that is, that is quite powerful. Now, what do you think is the secret to your success? Why, why do you think you are so successful?

Um, I am successful because my, my inner patterns are finally breaking. My inner patterns are finally meeting the world where they are.

Hmm, I like that. Wow. Okay, what, what are you learning these days? I know leaders are learners.

Um, I am learning, um, more on relational patterns, right? Relational psychology. So I just want to understand how human experience shapes the moment you were born and what actually held you till, till this day. So my work— I'm doing a thesis on that. So I will be releasing my second book on, on that, which is— which I want to call as Archetypal Prism. So I am learning more about relational psychology and relational patterns When I say patterns or identities, it's not, it's not the personality. It is under survival pressure, you had to adapt to make something a part of you. That is what I call as relational patterns.

Yes.

So I'm studying more of that too, and it helps my work.

That is powerful. Whenever you publish a book, I definitely would like for you to come back here. Maybe we can help make it bestseller, but it's— I think it's very important, the work you are doing, for sure. And most of the time we talk a lot about success, but what about failure? And I love this coin I have. It was given to me. One side says success, the other side says failure, right? Two sides of the same coin. So my question for you is, how has failure shaped your life?

Failure has redirected me to something that is less aligned for me.

Hmm.

Failure has been a redirectional force that sharpened the edge for me every time.

Wow, powerful, powerful, powerful. So if you could choose 3 people to have dinner with, it could be anyone, live, dead, or even fictitious character, who would you like to have dinner with and why? Free people?

I love to really have intellectual discussions in, uh, you know, and I like to have mentally stimulating conversations like relational psychology, like human behavior. So I would really, uh, go to dinner with a very sharp mind, probably with Gabor Mate. We can talk a lot about psychology, we can talk a lot about relational patterns.

Um, and I believe he's the one who wrote this book, right? The Myth of Normal.

Yep, yep, yep, yep. And if I want to choose someone from the past who's still— who's not alive, that would be Osho.

Uh, Osho is the one who wrote the book The Book of Secrets.

That's right, that's right. This, this has been my— this has been my Bible whenever I have a question. I have a— my mind maps patterns but thinks in a philosophical way.

Yes.

So for me, the answers from this book are far more revealing than I usually would hope any other book would do.

Powerful. And one more person.

I never thought about it.

Okay, okay, okay, that's, that's never happened before, but, but okay, let's talk about the two people you just mentioned. Why should my audience read this book? The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic Culture.

So if you are anyone who is doing the inner work and you are becoming the, the conscious version of yourself, the first thing that would question— that question would come to you is, what is normal and what is not? Yeah, that is why you should read this book. The Myth of Normal, it breaks the stereotypes of everything that you've been told what is normal. And that is why this book is healing and revealing and accepting in so many ways that the society wouldn't naturally do it for you.

Wow. Okay, what about the book by Osho, The Book of Secrets: 112 Meditations to Discover the Mystery Within?

The Book of Secrets for me is uh, every time I have a profound life question, I would be having a very fundamental question about life and I get stuck there. I usually turn to a random page and I would get an answer there, and I have a personal connect with the book, and that happens every single time. So the 112 meditations may or may not work for for you. It depends on whether you're a meditation person or not, but just reading this book is revealing in so many ways. Spiritually, it is enlightening to, to talk about this, to read about this. So that's why this book is— so this balances between the intellectual world and the spiritual world. That's why these two books I suggest.

That is, that is powerful. Is there a song, a book, or a movie that would be your life's theme or your anthem?

I usually look, uh, look for patterns in everything because of the work that I do. I'm naturally fascinated. So instead of a song or an anthem or something, I look for rhyming patterns in everyone. So each one that I meet is, is teaching me something. Yes, about me, about the patterns that I hold. So that's how I look at life. I look at life in terms of patterns. That's why I'm having a hard time choosing one person to go out to dinner with or something like that, because I always— patterns are my— are, are everything for me. And we are all, uh, different shapes and of those patterns, different arrangement of those patterns.

Yes.

So just because I started looking at life like that, I have a, I have a way of looking at it this way instead of just one person or one book or one song.

Yes, that is quite fascinating. Okay, we are going to land this plane down. Uh, as we end, let me ask you, if you had one and only one day to live, what would you have liked your final contribution today?

Final contribution would be to live and leave this body consciously. I take complete responsibility of myself.

Yes.

And leave the world better than when I found it, how I found it.

Yes.

So if, if that means leaving responsibility whatever that means to me, that is what I would like to do. I would like to do for the world.

So if you had a magic wand and you could solve any problem in the world, what is the one problem you'd like to solve first thing tomorrow morning?

The amnesia. The amnesia of who you who we are.

Wow.

The amnesia of who we are. Yeah, I would just use a wand and make everyone remember who they are. Yes, that would be the beginning point of a conscious world.

Wow, the greatness within. That's, uh, powerful.

Uh, that's what I'm doing with my book.

So, yes. Wow, powerful, powerful. Okay, thank you, thank you so much. I've already used too much of your time. Let me ask you this too. I feel like I need to. Thanks again for being one of our master teachers today, but if you had the ear of every young woman right now across America listening to you right now for the next 60 seconds, what would you tell them?

You are not the rules. That you hold. You are the one who is holding all the rules. You are not the rules.

Wow, powerful. Okay, all right, so we are coming to, to the end of the show. Uh, all good things come to an end. What can we do to add value back to you, Coach Fabien?

I, as I said, I published a book. Um, I'm doing more more thesis work in that area to study relational patterns, to help serve the humanity better in terms of understanding themselves, because that is what I think the world needs more of. On the same lines, I offer one-on-one sessions because I'm doing— I'm heavily working on the research work. I offer only one-on-one sessions right now as of today. So if anyone is interested in trying this Archetypal Map sessions and they want to map their patterns, uh, this session would be a value add to you because it maps your core patterns and it maps that pattern to that particular archetype that you have in you that is predominantly running your life, your decision making, and everything. So if you want to change the way that you make decisions, if you want to make a shift consciously, if you want to change, shift the way that you hold relationships for everything, this would be, this would be an absolute value-add. And this would be revealing to you in so many ways that otherwise you wouldn't. So we map the pattern in 5 minutes, as, as less as 5 minutes. So, and then the rest of the session will be coaching and helping you go towards how to break those patterns. So that's what this session offers.

And that's on stand.store/remember with Pavi. Wow, powerful. Thank you so much. Now, is there a question I should have asked you, coach, that I didn't get a chance to ask? Anything else you wanted to share before we end the show today?

No, I really enjoyed this conversation. It was intellectually stimulating. You were So you made me so feel comfortable and so welcome. Thank you for— and I wanted to mention that this is my first podcast, and I really am honored to be on your first podcast.

Fantastic. Fantastic. Okay, to end, it's going to take less than 2 minutes. I want to ask you a very quick question, and you answer the first thing that comes to your mind. Okay, so what is one word that defines great leadership? One word.

Awareness.

Awareness. Okay. Morning routine or practice that keeps you grounded?

Gratitude.

A book or a quote that changed your life?

Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle.

Oh no, I got the wrong one. Okay, I, I like that, that one too. And by the way, I do have a digital bookshelf, so I'm going to be adding those books to that one. We started May of last year with just 2 books. Now we have more than 400 books on the bookshelf. People like you recommend books for us to read. Okay, uh, who inspired you most today?

Who inspired most? You.

Really? Oh, thank you. All right, a leadership habit you refuse to compromise on, you will do it no matter what?

Uh, resilience.

Okay. What is the question every leader should ask themselves frequently?

What am I? What am I keeping alive that need not be?

Huh? I like that. So knowing all I know now, what would I do differently? What am I doing I need to stop doing? Wow. Powerful. Powerful. Okay. All right. What did you want to be when you were a kid?

I— what did I want to be when I was a kid? Astronaut.

Really? Wow. Okay. I guess you are not exploring space, but you are exploring consciousness and, I don't know, leadership principles that could change the life of so many people. Okay. 3 adjectives. Describing you as a kid?

3 adjectives?

Yes.

Um, daring, bold, expressive.

Okay, what about as an adult?

Uh, courageous, um, deep, reflective.

All right. So, uh, I like to end on a positive note. What is something you are feeling optimistic about these days?

About this?

No, like in 2026, what are you feeling optimistic about?

Okay, um, I feel— I'm feeling optimistic towards this new beginning, new beginning of who I, um, who I'm becoming. And this journey is quite eclectic and dynamic for me because of the work that I'm doing. Uh, I, I, I don't know what relational patterns are I'm going to and how this work is going to evolve. So that makes me so enthusiastic and optimistic because of the nature of my work and the research that I do. So that is keeping me so engaged in looking at everything as patterns. Everything, yes. Uh, you know, there is a lot to learn from people. There's a lot to learn from everyone because each and every pattern teaches you, um, a lot, a lot, really. Wow. So that keeps me enthusiastic and so happy about doing what I'm doing in 2026.

That is really, really powerful because you just made me think of, you know, your yesterday doesn't have to be a repeat, right? Your tomorrow can be different than your today, especially if you understand those, those patterns, and then you bring about the change. Okay, this is it. So, uh, the very, very last question I'm gonna ask you, and this is it: one word that represents our shared experience on this podcast today. One word.

Wise. The questions were very wise and they are very educating, they're very revealing, not probing. It didn't feel invasive, it felt welcoming and warm. So, with all that together, I want to use the word wise.

Thank you so much. And I almost always feel so grateful. Thank you for spending almost an hour and a half with us today. Today and sharing your wisdom. And again, everybody, I want you to get a copy of the book right now in a digital format, Archetypal Remembering, and soon it's going to be in paperback as well, available on Amazon and I believe on Apple Bookstore also. And I think I've seen that Barnes Noble too, right, on the, uh, Nook, Nook, Nook book. So, uh, thanks again, Coach Pavitt. I really appreciate your time with us today. I appreciate it.

Thank you so much, Coach Bizzy, for having me here, and I, I enjoyed this conversation thoroughly with you.

Thank you. All right, everybody, uh, make sure to follow her on LinkedIn, so easy to find. Uh, she's on linkedin.com in Connect with Pavi, and, uh, her bookstore is at stan.store/rememberwithpavi. You can get a signed book or get archetype map session as well. So once she publishes her next book, I definitely would like for her to come back here. Okay, that's all we have for today. I'm gonna be back tomorrow, and for the first time in the history of this podcast, we are going to do our first podcast in a complete foreign language. So we're gonna be speaking French, my native language, tomorrow. Tomorrow I am going to be speaking with a coach. Her name is Nathalie Colombat. She is from Lyon, France, and she wrote a book, Le Leadership Conscient. We're going to be talking about conscious leadership in the age of AI and burnout. So you don't want to miss this. It's going to be 6 AM. So for those who don't speak French, you can still watch it on LinkedIn. It's going to be in French, but on YouTube it's going to be in French with English subtitles. And then you can join us a couple of hours later tomorrow. I think it's going to be about 9:00 AM my time, so 12:00 PM, right, on the East Coast. She's going to come back and we're going to do the same thing, this time in English. And the reason why she wanted to do it in French first is because she does speak English, but she's not very fluent in English. So she felt like she'd be freer in her native language, which is French. So we're going to do that, and then we're going to come back and do the same podcast in English too. Again, we've never done that before. That's going to be the very first time. And, I will also be speaking to the one and only Kim Palermo. She's written a blockbuster book, Indoctrination 365. We're going to be talking about the story America never fully told. And, later that day, I will also be speaking to CSM Yolanda Meritet, retired from the US Army. She's now a coach and she wrote this instant bestseller. It's, I think, number 1 on Amazon now for its category, the command method. So we're gonna be talking about leading through AI disruption with clarity. So that is what I have planned for tomorrow. So thanks again for watching. And as you guys know, we celebrate Black History Year every time we meet here on the Leadership Success podcast. So I'm gonna play two quick videos for you guys. One of them is going to be about the very first African American ambassador, William Phidias Coleman. This is really something we do need to learn, right, from our history. So I am going to play that short clip, and we're also going to play a short clip about the one and only the late now John Lewis, how he was viciously attacked, but then he was able to forgive. And what I really love about him during the civil rights movement, just like Martin Luther King, his mentor, it was all about nonviolence. They only had to dig deep to find that place in them where they didn't have any hate and they didn't respond with hatred or violence even when they were attacked. Some of them killed, and they still loved their neighbor. That is very, very, very difficult to do. Really a great example of what it means to be a great human being. So I'm going to play those two clips and we're going to end there. Thanks again for watching. Bye for now.

Bill, Bill was the quintessential lawyer.

He dressed magnificently, and he wasn't always in the best of shape.

Mostly his shape was round, but every suit fit perfectly. He always wore a vest, and he was always about business. He wasn't much of a sense of humor God.

But one time I recall specifically, I was walking down the hall on about 3:30 on a Saturday afternoon, still at the law firm.

Long week, but they expected you to work on Saturdays. And I see Coleman come out of the office and he said, Mr. Harmelin, where are you going? And I said, I have a date tonight, Mr. Coleman. I'm leaving.

And he looked at me and said, we only started making a profit on you at 1:30 this afternoon. Where are you going? And I said, I'm going home to get dressed. And he said, okay.

But he ruined the darn day for me.

I mean, now, now I had to worry about whether I had job security or not. But he meant it. I mean, he viewed viewed law as a tough taskmaster. He had no sort of soft skills that I was aware of. He didn't play tennis, and he just practiced law at the highest level. The two of us tried to enter a so-called white waiting room in Rock Hill, South Carolina, 35 miles from Charlotte, North Carolina. A group of young men attacked us, members of the Klan, beat us. And that was lying on the floor over there. A local police official came up, wanted to know whether we wanted to press charges. We said no, we believe in the way of peace. The way of love to where none dies. Many years later, to be exact, February or now, one of the gentlemen who had attacked us came to my office in Washington. He was in his 70s. The son was in his 40s. And he said, "Pastor Lewis, I'm one of the members of the Klan who beat you and beat your sickling. I want to apologize. Will you forgive me? I said, I accept your apology. I forgive you. His son started crying. He started crying. They hugged me and felt them back, and I felt pride. It says something about the power of the philosophy and the discipline of nonviolence. The power of the way of peace, the way of love. Mohandas' book 1 and book 2 and book 3 would tell the story that we must create a society at peace with itself. That we lay down the burden of hate, the burden of division, the burden of separation, and we call another generation for young people. It was the children, it was the young people who led a nonviolent revolution in America during the '60s, and we can do it again. We must do it again.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach Bisi. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.