S5:E114🎙️ LIVE with Dr. Jeffrey Magee 🚀📚🔥 (Multi Tracks Audio)

Hi, I'm John Maxwell. When the top companies in the world are looking for trainers, speakers, and coaches, there's one name that stands above the rest, and that's Maxwell Leadership. Our certified team members have gotten proven results for companies all over the globe, and our reputation, I'm proud to say, is second to none. Some of our members have risen to the top of their profession, including the one you're going to meet today. I proudly introduce you to my friend Bob Fabien Zinga.

Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ, where we help you lead with purpose and succeed with impact. If you're ready to grow into the kind of leader others want to follow, this podcast is for you. If you're determined to elevate your success and leave a lasting legacy, this podcast is for you. As my mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell, reminds us, everything rises and falls on leadership. Our goal is simple: to inspire you, challenge you, and equip you with insights that can transform the trajectory of your leadership journey. Welcome aboard to another episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast with Coach BZ.

Organizations and individuals that are incredibly successful know one thing, and you've heard it before: what got you to where you are now will not get you to where you want to be tomorrow. They're always looking for that little 1% variable of how do I increase and become more efficient and effective as an individual myself How do I do that for the people around me? And how do we build an organization that's thriving, that's fun, that has a culture of success that allows us to move forward in the marketplace of tomorrow? Hi, I'm Jeffrey McGee, and for decades I've had the unique experience of benchmarking and serving with the absolute elite of the startup business leaders across the world, as well as entrepreneurs, Fortune 100 C-suite, and cutting-edge association leaders and military generals. Talent development is the area I have dedicated the past 30 years to, having designed and delivered improvement initiatives to tens of thousands of professionals through keynotes, training programs, and online learning portals. I'm honored that much of my IP today is incorporated into many of the leading training firms' courseware across America and leveraged by many of the leading talent development specialists within SHRM, ATD, Vistage, and within many of the graduate schools' best practice models today. Success is both an art and a science, and the math of success is very clear. Throughout the more than 2 dozen books I've written, translated into 21 languages to include 4 bestsellers and 4 graduate management textbooks, I have field-tested what success and failure looks like within my own businesses and with our clients. And I would love to have the opportunity to explore that with you and help you to take your organization to the levels you want to take it.

Oh, well, that was a special guest, Dr. Maggie, and I can't hardly wait to bring him on the stage. What a wonderful, wonderful day this is. So first, to get started, as you guys know, as is our custom here, we like to start with what we call moment of gratitude. That's where we take just a moment to be grateful every single time we meet. So You know the drill. If you would maybe close your eyes, put yourself in your happy place, and maybe take a deep breath and think about one thing you are grateful for in this moment right now. I think I am so grateful that on this podcast we get to talk to really the top 1%, right? People who've really changed industry, they've really dented the universe. People like General Petraeus to General McChrystal, people who are really heroes, right? Living legends. And they take the time to come and speak to little us and just share their wisdom and their understanding. And that is such a blessing. And we have such a person right here, right now. You know, almost all of my heroes— I've been studying success and leadership since I was about 17 years old, is when I really got serious about it. And all of the mentors I've had, the books I've written, The person I'm about to talk to has spoken to each and every one of them. It's just incredible. So let me see if I can do a proper introduction of our guest before I bring him on board. So we're talking to Dr. Jeffrey McGee. He has spent more than 3 decades helping executive military leaders, entrepreneurs, and organizations navigate disruption, develop talent, strengthen leadership pipelines, and drive transformational growth. He's written more than 30 books. It's just incredible. He's the founder of JeffreyMcGee.com and Professional Performance Magazine, both the editor and the publisher. He has delivered thousands of keynote presentations, offered dozens of books, and impacted leaders around the world through his work in leadership development, sales mastery, organizational transformation, and human capital strategy. Uh, during this episode, we will also discuss, uh, two powerful books Bold Leadership for Frontline Manager, Unleash Your Talent, Putting Yourself and Others in a Position to Succeed, and Valor, The Ultimate Handbook on Military Professional Transition to Your Next Career. So this conversation will be especially valuable for those in the military who follow me, but those in cybersecurity as well. Part of what you're gonna be learning is how transformational leaders thrive during disruption, and also how to prepare yourself and your organization for the future of work and leadership. So without any further ado, please help me welcome to the Leadership Success Podcast, the one and only Dr. Jeffrey McGee.

Good day and thank you, Coach. How are you doing?

Very, very good, man. What a great pleasure and honor to be speaking to you today. I guess to get started, I'd like to ask, what are you grateful for this morning?

I'm grateful for the opportunity every day to get up and do what I love to do, which is basically engaging people Helping them to unlock the blocks in their head to be as great as they can potentially be.

Wow.

Simple.

That is just, just fascinating. When did it start for you where success didn't mean just you, like me, myself, and I, but you started really to focus on significance, what I call significance, really the success of other people?

Yeah, it's a great question. Whether any of us here joining, and thank you all for joining, and those of you who watch this podcast later in record mode, You know, whether it is digging and clawing way back in your head to when you were a child and you really were thriving and you did something different than those around you, or whether it was earlier in your career when you thought you had a trajectory and goals and where you're headed, and then all of a sudden there's disruption, as you just mentioned in the opening comments, that caused you to have to think differently. Uh, there's a lot of ways to answer that. And I think when people think of answering that question, when did it happen for me, there really are two answers. It started happening for you long before you realized it in little situational environments. But then something, you know, very colossal happens. For me, I think it happened twofold. One, in my early career, in my ages of 20 to 30, I got downsized from a Fortune 100 company. And that was a game changer because I learned at that point, you can become unemployed for absolutely no reason that you were directly involved in. Someone decides we don't want to have a business unit, we need to downsize by X percent of our headcount. So last in, first out, or whatever it might be, or, you know, you get sideways with someone. So I think that was the first time I really realized I needed to take ownership. As clichéd as it may sound, I needed to take ownership for my destiny. So whether I am going to work for an organization, in an organization, that means I have to be proactive in navigating it. I have to always be looking out not only for my teammates, the organization, what we deliver in the market space, but at the end of the day, I better be covering my own butt. And that was number one. The second time of really answering that was when I got downsized later in life. This downsizing was because of a merger and acquisition, which still happens big time today. And when a merger happens, I was naive. At that time to think, I'm great. I got all the accolades on the wall says I'm great. There's no way they're going to get rid of me. Now, Coach, you're in trouble, but I'm not. And you quickly learn, no, nothing is for sure in a merger acquisition. And so that was in my early 30s. And that's when I went from having a job, no job, re-employed in 24 hours. I had some great mentors. That were saying to me, what you just did, Jeffrey, was a very unorthodox job search process. You in essence took how you were taught to market a Fortune 100 company in consumer products, you now were the product and you applied it to yourself and you went from having a job, no job, and re-employed. And they said, you should share that, share that by speeches, talking, sharing, presentations, training, or write a book. Well, I wrote a book and that was what launched me to where I am today. That disruption.

Wow.

And that book became became a bestseller. People started buying the book and saying, hey, would you come talk to our group? I said, sure. They then said, what's your fee? I said, what do you mean? Well, we need to pay you. And I went, I had no idea. All those times our parents said shut up, I'm glad I didn't listen wholeheartedly that you get paid to talk if you have a valuable message. So powerful question, but there's layers of answers for our viewers to also reflect on. It's not one thing. You might think it's one thing, but clues were earlier on if you're paying attention.

That is really amazing. Now, in the time we live in now, AI taking away jobs and more than 300,000 women were fired from the US government. So, there is a lot of instability in the economy now. What was your very first best-selling book, a book you just mentioned?

So, that book was called Bounce Back Self-Marketing. And it was really about how do you bounce back in self-marketing. That was the book. It was a little pocketbook. It's not in print now. You might be able to find one on Amazon. If you do, there's going to be a good, interesting read and a lot of entertainment. But that book plays forward today, you know, in a book that I wrote during COVID which is called Changeformational, one of the books we'll also talk about today. But what it really taught me was several elements. And we'll talk about AI a little bit more, but you just brought it up. So let's hit it now. If you think about AI and you hit pause, think of the conversation this way to put it into context. A lot of us were raised and told, you know, there's different jobs you can get. The greater the risk there is to a job you might go after, the greater the rewards will be to that. So if you don't want risk, you find what's comfortable. So again, at my age, I was raised that there are certain positions you won't make a bazillion dollars, but you'll be comfortable. You'll make a good income, you'll make a good living, you'll have a good retirement. And one of those was go to work for the government because you'll never get fired. A lot of people getting downsized. So what I find entertaining, and not to be disrespectful by saying it that way, is that people are just now waking up to realizing, wait a second, if you work for a nonprofit, an association, a college, a university, public K-12, if you work for a state government, local government, federal government, at the end of the day, folks, it's still a business. It has to bring value in what it does. Everybody has to be self-accountable to working and performing at peak performance. No more, you know, 40 hours a week to do actually a 2-hour job. Everyone has to carry their weight. The one person that's carrying the majority of the team because they got 3 slackers on the team, that doesn't work. So, a lot of the models in the private sector, how you build a strong thriving team and culture alignment and hold people accountable to, hey, if you're not going to carry your bucket of water, the team is not going to carry it for you. So you know what? You're out of here. That's now being used as an overlay to government. It's freaking some people out. At the same time, though, I would advocate there's a lot of people maybe quietly working in the government that are saying, thank you. Thank you that now everyone's being held accountable. And part of that is some of the deadwood— oh, we can't say that— is getting its butt fired. And that's part of the reality.

So, yeah.

You look at that a little differently. Now, the AI comment, let's back this bus up 100 years ago. You know, Henry Ford automates basically and creates a manufacturing process that can be applied to all kinds of businesses. And in doing so, that was a major disruptor 100 years ago, probably freaked some people out that started losing jobs. They went, oh my gosh, isn't it fair? And then you can jump into basically the '50s, '60s, '70s, the first side of really technology with IBM, and then into the '80s, '90s, you got Steve Jobs and Apple, and then you know, etc., etc. So about every, you know, 50 years for the past 200 years has been a major disruption. Well, you know, since about 2000, it's not every 50 years, it's almost every 10 years now, it's faster. So you think about in 2000, even 9/11 was a game changer to the planet in terms of how lots of things managed. We're on virtually right now, and the world needs to realize, hey, you know, 9/11, you had this thing called Skype that came out and like freaked everyone out. But it also was a a leverage disruptor where people could have video connectivity and business calls. Well, then in 2010, '08, '09, '10, you had a recession in real estate. That blew up the planet basically. And then in essence, you have 2020 and you have COVID. So, for every 10 years for the past 30, there's been another major disruptor. All that AI is is another disruptor. It doesn't mean anything is going to absolutely disappear. But how we do a lot of things is going to change. And now what it does, if you look at AI as a force multiplier, thank you for your time for the last 20-plus years in the United States Navy, retiring as a senior officer. You know, the military uses that phrase force multiplier. How do you look at anything, anyone, any tool, and how do you leverage it?

Yes.

Pause.

See, my entire whole premise to our planet is what I just said pause on. The pause is human capital. And then my colleague Doug Hurtegen and I, who have known each other for 20 years, phenomenal gentleman, we wrote Bold Leadership, Again, when you think about human capital, see, that's the one thing, Coach, you're still in the Navy at the time we're doing this recording. So your group of soldiers, young women, young men that follow you, that team working for you is different than the team working for another leader in the military or in the military for another country that's either an ally or foe. So in business, if I have a business, the only true disruptor that I have is not AI. People are missing it. So I'm just smiling on the sidelines, realizing you're an idiot. You got caught up in the emotion of it. See, the difference is the people working in my company, human capital, don't work down the street. And the people working down the street don't work for me. But if I can use AI at any level, so can they. If I can get a new building, so can they. If I can get technology, so can they. If I can— see, the only thing different on the planet is people at the end of the day. That was the difference that Henry Ford had. It's a difference that in essence, Tom Watson, IBM had. It's a difference that Steve Jobs had at Apple. It's the difference today with Tesla and Elon Musk. It's a difference with— Whoever's in the White House, it doesn't matter about the politics. Whoever's in the White House, who do they surround themselves with? Human capital wants to go forward, or human capital wants to go backwards, or human capital wants to go nowhere. And Gallup says that's our 3 demographics on the planet, baby. You've got a small percentage of people want to go forward and a whole lot of people want to sit on their butt. Scary stats, but it gives you a clue. So AI is a disruptor, but it's a force multiplier if you use it the right way. I embed it in all of our leadership training programs. I embedded into all of our sales training programs. I embedded into what I'm doing. Our own magazine, Performance Magazine. What makes it different is that the people that write for me are truly global GOATs. But what they write cannot be found anywhere on the internet. AI can't find their thoughts and words until after it appears in my magazine. See, that's a differentiator. I'm sorry, you got me excited with one little question.

No, this is very, very powerful. Thank you so much for sharing. I guess If we went back to the beginning, for those meeting you for the first time, who are you beyond all of your titles, credentials, accolades, and accomplishments? Who is Jeffrey McGee?

He's an introvert that loves to read, jog, listen to jazz music, put the roof down on the car, and drive forever. And then my thoughts take me away to how to improve. My mind is always thinking about how to make something better, faster, different, more cost-effective? How can I help humanity, human capital, to become better? How can I help you, Coach, to unleash yourself by recognizing what's holding you back, get rid of it? How do I help you to identify, eliminate redundancies and use technology as an example we just talked about? So it frees up your capacity to be significantly better, faster, different, more cost-effective, what you can do. See, the thing that technology is never going to be able to replicate is human capital. It can add to, but it can't think the way you think. It can't act the way you act. It can't emote the way you can emote. It can't have the curiosities that you can have. It can mimic you based upon data in, data out. Well, there's that old adage we grew up with called garbage in, garbage out. And some people don't realize it. Garbage in, garbage out is a very misleading statement. Garbage in, guess what? It stays. Program crap into your kid's head, it never leaves unless you program a whole lot of constructive on top of that crap. And that's a part of our problem with humanity today is that some people don't have programmed in them a sense of belief, the ability to just sit back and dream and unleash. And we allow a lot of negative people on our boards of directors, in our executive suites, into our organization that we gladly hire our own toxicity versus saying, no, step up or step out into conversation. That's who I am.

That's really, really powerful. I think what you just said could potentially change the life of some of the people listening. Right. I hope. Man, I really love what you said about the pause. I think especially in this AI era, we really need that more and more just to have time to think, to focus, and to know exactly what our priorities, our goals, and our values are. Powerful. Wow. Now, how can an introvert like you become an award-winning keynote speaker?

Little secret, a lot of musicians, entertainers, athletes, and fellow speakers I know are introverts. So let me answer that. I believe any of us, introvert, extrovert, if you can truly hit pause, back up and say, okay, what fascinates me and drives my curiosity? And then that trajectory leads us into a model. It's a triangular diagram I use, and I call it the Triangle of Excellence. And there's 3 sides of this triangle. Each one starts with the letter A. So once you decide what career pathway— so you didn't grow up thinking of cybersecurity because with all due respect, when you were a little kid, playing in Congo, cybersecurity wasn't one of the words you were taught. And if I didn't really—

absolutely, yes.

But as you grew up, you get sort of exposed to different opportunities, and one of them might have been this cybersecurity guy. And so she started looking at her and starting to decide you want to date her. So your curiosity is what led you down that way. Now, for you to become a subject matter expert on that topic, think of this triangular diagram. So now put that topic in there, that's career pathway in there, this the specialty you want to pursue, there's 3 ways you truly grow you to be a part of that 1% that the rest of the world now looks to and benchmarks. So one of the A's is going to be aptitude. It starts with knowledge. So whether that knowledge is formal or informal education, technical, non-technical, credentials, certifications, application, university, hard knocks. I mean, there's a zillion ways you grow your bucket of knowledge. But what some people grow up, unfortunately, here in the United States, one of our cancers for decades has been public education. And there are always exceptions to the rules. I'm a public education product. So, I am very pro-public education. What I'm not pro is anyone in public education that doesn't want to hold someone accountable. I'm sorry, Coach, your child's stupid. Okay.

Blunt statement.

Now, you got my attention. See, we can't even say that today because, oh my gosh, the teacher's being mean. I'm going to sue the principal. No, your kid's dumb. Wake up. There's your reality. But no one then says, wait a minute, how is it the parents didn't know their kid wasn't understanding this knowledge set days, weeks, months, or years in advance? I mean, I grew up in the '60s and '70s where if you didn't understand a topic, you had these regular parent-teacher conferences. Parents were there. They knew you were failing in geometry or geography or English or what have you. And then they had flashcards and at home, you did, you know, your parents helped you and drilled with you. Today, we have absent people that have no clue what people's aptitude is. So yeah, I can apply it in the workplace, in the home place. But if you want to grow yourself, it starts with aptitude. The second side of that triangle, then, is application, doing it. Let people do, let them explore, let them innovate. Doug and I, in our book, we talked about a program we were doing together in a leadership program where he was very innovative and said, "Yes, I want you to work with my senior leaders. But everyone has someone who reports to them, frontline leaders," which that was the birth and the reason for this book was we need to do leadership with them. See, we didn't dumb down anyone; we jumped them up. We held the bar up and said, "We want you to perform at this level." But one of the, one of the modules when I go through my year-long leadership program, we have 3 months where we zero in on unleashing your creative DNA. I'm a big believer you can have an R&D department or not. But your next new innovation of an existing product or a new product, your next new innovation for profitability isn't by hiring an outside consultant. Yes, hire me. But your first way of getting it, though, is going to be by looking at the team and do you create an environment culture by which the people inside the organization freely share these ideas. See, that's application, doing these things. Do you have job rotations? Do you let people move around your organization and work somewhere they may not work? I've got another client that's a billion-dollar company. I started working with them, they were at $300 million. And one of their rockstar salespeople, they looked at him and said, you know what, we see a future in you, but we want to do something different. So we want to transfer you for the next year or two and work in the plant, the manufacturing side. That blew his brain up. And so as I'm working with him saying, no, this is a huge opportunity for you to grow. Your application and aptitude and the knowledge you set in this business. There's a young lady I'm working with right now that her trajectory was to go into the healthcare industry. She graduated from a phenomenal university on the East Coast and she's going to work for a manufacturing company. As I'm coaching her, she goes, "Yes, this is traditionally a men's industry. There's so much opportunity." Ah, pause. See, she doesn't see this sexist. She's saying, "Hey, it historically has been this. I don't care. But the future is this." That's where I do care. See, we create our own problems. So application, learn where the winners are and model them. Learn where the losers are and sidestep them. And it sits on the base of this triangle of attitude. See, attitude is mindset, passion, drive, work ethic, dedication, commission, commitment. You're in the military. Your buzzword that the civilian world we've stolen in the last decade, resiliency. That's an attitude, a mindset. So again, how you get there is you have to hold people accountable. Accountability, you talked about John Maxwell. He's written for my magazine off and on for decades. But a lot of what he also talks about is accountability. I talk about it in my programs and my coaching work. Again, there's 5 levels of accountability I teach and why the planet is in essence out of alignment is because no one has the guts to stand up and do level 2 accountability. If you do level 2, everything else happens. So, again, phenomenal question, but that's how you move yourself forward.. And that's how I want to engage other people. That's why I want people to engage each other.

That's really powerful. Now you mentioned accountability level 2. Can you just briefly give the 5 levels and which one of your books can people go?

Coach, you're killing me. You're killing me.

Yes, I know I am.

All right, folks. So here's a couple hundred thousand dollars of free intel. So in one of my graduate management textbooks, one there on the back shelf called The Managerial Leadership Bible, I talk about it in it. In my— the only personal development book I've ever written is called Your Trajectory Code by John Wiley. It's also on Apple, iTunes, Audible. It's in that one as well. Doug and I talk about it in Bold Leadership. So, I mention it because, Coach, it's a thread in lots of my books. So, not anyone, but if you get Bold, it's in it. If you have Changeformational, it's in it. But here are the 5 levels. So, we all want our children to grow up and be self-accountable. Level 1 is self-accountable. Every employer wants to hire an employee that's self-accountable, self-accountable. Every individual wants a teammate that's going to be self-accountable, self-accountable. So why is it that the planet is out of balance with very few people that are self-accountable? Ah, it's because we have programmed the planet to actually not be self-accountable. So if you want someone to be a rock star, Level 2 is the answer. Every time I go into an organization that is peak performing, they want to go to the next level, guaranteed at some level these 5 are happening. But see, they don't know it. So my job is to illuminate it so they can see, hey, you have a framework that works. You You're doing it, but you weren't doing it purposefully. You weren't doing it strategically. You weren't doing it on purpose because you didn't understand the framework. So let me give you what I have birthed. Same model, Coach. If I go into a dysfunctional organization, I've got a client right now to reach out to me, then they are the apex of dysfunctionality. But it's because the CEO is probably the nicest person I've ever met in my life. And I've known him for a long time. But his team has taken advantage of him, whether they consciously realize it or not. And they're performing at a level where they're doing below 50% of the revenue every year they should be doing. That's how bad they are. And they think they're doing a good job. But it's because Level 2 is missing. Level 2 is systems. You create systems of accountability. So think about you and I, how many times we use our cell phone, we pull up the calendar, we put a note in there to remind us at a certain date and time to go do something. That's a system of accountability. The airline, you're going on a flight, it starts pinging you, you know, days before to check in. That's a system to hold your candles so you don't forget. It pings you 24 hours so you don't forget. It pings you hours before so you don't forget to get somewhere. Your car has a dashboard. Doesn't matter how much of a flat screen your dash now today might be, if you're starting to get low on fuel, whether it's gas or whether it's dinosaur— oh, that's called electrical. Everyone wants to be E, but E is still going to be something from the ground, folks. Hate to pop your bubbles as of the time of this recording. And a lot of you driving all those E vehicles are actually not helping the planet because every time you park you forget you're taking your energy from over on this side of the mountain called a coal plant. But let's not get tied up with specifics. See, what are the systems? So your car tells you when you're starting to get low on energy, so it holds you accountable. So we have peer accountability. Those are systems. So again, another dramatic example, if you have a DUI and the police in the judicial system says, hey, we're not going to throw you in jail, but here's the system. We're going to put a breathalyzer on your car. And in order for you to start your car, you have to blow into it every single time. And if you blow clean, it will start. If you blow not clean, it ain't gonna start. So there's a zillion examples of systems. You have a grocery list in your kitchen where if you finish something, you write it on the list so whoever's gonna go to the grocery store, they don't forget or miss something. So we have all been raised in a world of systems. We just don't realize, wait a minute, what's the power of a system? So in businesses, so if you were in a business, cybersecurity, manufacturing, if you're in a business where you have Aunt OSHA connected to you, or you have an S in some other government agency where there's compliance that you have to do this, push this, set this, turn on this, turn that off before machine works. Those are all systems to help us to not get in trouble or get hurt. So, systems. When you create systems—

Powerful.

—that number one understands number one and we utilize those systems, you help to reinforce the right behaviors, mindset, culture, and conditions, and number one to always perform at the rockstar level. So, spoiler, this is a friend of mine who's a gold medal Olympian. He wanted to be the first Olympian American to win BMX in the Olympics. And so, Connor created his own systems as a little kid. First thing he did is he was up at like 3 in the morning watching the Olympics in Asia when that sport first showed up. And he said, wow, they got a gold medal. I'm going to get it. So, he wrote it on a part of the wall in his garage. When his parents moved, they cut that out of the wall and took it with them. But he created, what's the system? I need to eat the right foods. What are they? I need to exercise. What type of exercise? I need to ride. How do I need to ride? Where do I need I need to go. So he created all these systems. Taylor Swift, the same thing. She, number one, is self-accountable. Everyone goes, oh my God, she's so successful. No, she said, who out there do I want to emulate that's incredibly successful? One of them is Dolly Parton. I used to serve on the American Bald Eagle Foundation on their board of directors. A lot of people don't realize American bald eagle is part of our national heritage. Interestingly enough though, our federal government doesn't do a damn thing for them. The American Bald Eagle Foundation in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee, funded by Dolly Parton, who wants zero publicity for it, is the lady that puts the money on the table. To save, protect, defend, and deal with eagles that are injured and bring out more babies and et cetera. But so Taylor Swift built a system, number 2, based upon Dolly Parton, one of her mentors. So she, number 1, knew exactly what to do and how to do it. And next thing you know, she owns the freaking planet. So 1 is people, 2 is systems. Now, how do you make sure systems work? Well, you have lots of examples. 3 is going to be peer. So the third level of accountability is creating an environment by which all the peers buy in. This is not whistleblower stupid crap time. This is not I'm going to tattletale on you and cry, wha, wha, wha time. 3 is peers, peers helping each other, holding each other accountable, jumping in, "What can I do to help you? Hey, this is perfect for where you want to go in life. You should go out for this program. You should get this degree. Maybe not right for me, right for you." And then 4th level accountability is customer. What feedback loops do you have in real time to get real feedback from your real customers to hold you accountable to be more successful? Not again to play I got you. And you don't need feedback from the occasional customer. So let's go to American Airlines. I wrote a I sent a letter to American Airlines after 9/11 showing them exactly how to turn their company around. The person that I sent the email to was very gracious because I had millions of miles with American at the time because I was flying with them. I had vested interest in them being successful. And I sent this incredible business case study letter to them, what to do. And they finally sent me a letter back that said, buzz off. So I elevated it to the boss, all the way up to the CEO of the company. Same thing as, hey, it's 9/11. We're working through this. We're hiring industry experts. There was your first mistake. And we're going to solve our own problem. Well, 26 years later, America is still financially in trouble. What's fascinating is I finally elevated that to the chairman of the board. So I won't mention Robert Brennan by name and Edward Brennan by name, the Brennan brothers from Chicago, the last CEO of Ward, Montgomery Ward, and last CEO of Sears. So that tells you a whole bunch about their ability. The last job you had was to run the American institutions into the ground. So I got a letter back from him and it was in the back. It was a case study in one of my leadership books. You've got Performance Execution on the screen for everyone. So it's a case study in the back. I have his own letter that basically says, we know what's best, don't listen to us. That same letter and idea was sent to Delta Airlines and Delta implemented everything in that letter. And I rest my case. Where's Delta today? Where's American today? So again, level 4 is your customer. Do you listen to them? Delta's en route though to start making some major mistakes if they don't wake up because they're now starting to believe their own press release. See, what Delta used to do, number 4, was that I'm what's called a diamond level flyer at Delta, which means I'm their highest level for this, this 12-month period with the amount of money I'm spending and a number of flights. And I'm right at 3 million miles just with Delta, 3 million miles with American. So I have a little bit of experience from which to make my points. So with Delta, before COVID whenever a plane landed, you knew, I would know, Coach, if you're sitting across the aisle and you were also a diamond, all of our phones would ping the second we were rolling to the gate. Ping! And it was a one-question survey because if you're Diamond, they got your cell number. And basically, they were saying, hey, Coach, did we meet all of the expectations of this flight today? It's real simple. Yes or no?

Yes.

And if we said yes, perfect. Do you have time for more questions? Yes or no? And you could go deeper or not. And if you said no, do you have time for more questions? But after COVID, what's interesting is they stopped that feedback loop from their most valuable, important customers, or Diamonds. See, everyone else buying a ticket is nice to have, But that's not how you build an airline. So your diamond flyers are how you keep the airplanes going. Your platinum flyers should be paying all of your bills. Gold should be profitability. And all of your silvers is play silly money. Let's just throw the money in the air and give it to whoever. Yes. But if you have to run an airline where you need every ticket to pay the price, you're in deep trouble. So, wow, that's kind of where you can find the models. And then the last one is boss. So if the boss is number 5 of the accountability— so one is self, two is system, 3 is peer, 4 is customer, 5 is boss. If the boss is always having to be present because there's a fear the team's not gonna do something right, you screwed up on number 4, 3, 2, and 1. So 5 could be parent. If the parents have to always keep showing up to take care of your 13-year-old child, then you screwed up for 12 years. Now, maybe child 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, so the parent has to be at number 1 because system and peer, other brothers and sisters, maybe not there to help out. But the model applies at home just as it applies in society, just as it applies in business. So it's a phenomenal formula. So I use it. If a system is good, they're doing it fine. If they suck, they're violating one of them.

Well, I think this is more than enough for this podcast. I can already tell we're gonna run out of time, but we have so much to talk about. But I think this is really, really critical. Thank you so much for talking about this. So people can get the Managerial Leadership Bible. They will get more into this, but you also have part of that, like you said, in your Change Happens and Transformational Curve, but also in the Bold Leadership book. Absolutely. That's incredible, man. This is really part of the reason why I do this podcast, because you only need one good idea that could literally transform your life if you put it into practice, of course. Just incredible. Okay, let me see, which way should we go? Let me ask you this. We already more than halfway through, but I'm still at the introduction here. I'm going to ask one question and then we're going to skip. I do want to speak talk about those 3 books at least briefly. You have so much content, so much good, good content, and people really, really need to follow you because you've spoken, like I said in the introduction, to all of my mentors, all of my heroes, people I've been following since I was like a teenager. And some of them I've been able to meet and I still follow today. But it's just incredible the amount of knowledge we have. I don't know. I feel like in 2026, knowledge is not our problem. We have way, way too much knowledge. Anywhere you turn, There's so much information. What makes the difference between those who actually exceed, who end up being in the top 3% of their field, and those who just, you know?

You posed a great question. Let me unpack a little bit of that, though. I think what the difference is, number one, is execution. I'm always going to go to execution. There's a lot of people who want to keep studying or they want to make something just right before they figure out how to pull the trigger. And again, there's an old saying, an adage, you know, done is a hell of a lot better than still working. Working on it. So get it done. But let me also unpack education. I'm going to challenge the conventional wisdom here. There's a tremendous amount of purveyors of education out there that are actually not subject matter experts. For example, in my space as an advisor and coach to, you know, organizational leaders at the highest level, and then wherever they want to strategically have me participate with their organization. As an instructor of leadership and sales, and I still wear that title quite proudly, As an instructor of leadership and sales, I'm not instructing or facilitating knowledge that I don't have first-person ownership of to somebody else. This is my intellectual property. There are aspects of what I have written and that I share that are in parcel someone else's where I've taken it and moved it on. That's common knowledge. That's how, you know, from Shakespeare to today, it's not changing. However, you know, you go back to Socrates, you want to go back, you know, a couple more weeks, It hasn't changed. However, there are nuances, and then there's new knowledge. I think part of the challenge we have today, and you saw this in the military, you see this in business, and you see this even Maxwell, you know, Maxwell is phenomenal. So I am an absolute— not going to make a negative comment. I'm making an observation. You go to a Maxwell conference, there's a lot of people in that room that call themselves coaches. But if I look at your resume, you've never really held a job, what the hell kind of a coach are you? I mean, I don't mean to be rude, but that takes out about 90% of the coaches on the planet right there with that last statement. If I look at your resume and you have a job for 1 to 2 to 3 years and you keep moving jobs, you have not learned anything. You've learned where the bathroom is. You've learned how to get paid to not have to actually produce. But right at the time you have to start producing is when you left and got another job. That's the reality. See, again, I make that bold statement because there may be a couple of exceptions, but there's not very many. If you've ever signed payroll, you've ever done a P&L, now I haven't had a lot of businesses out there. My largest was roughly $137 million. I had 144 employees and I've had smaller firms and I've been a solo entrepreneur and I've worked with businesses that are, you know, $14 million, $400 million and $4 billion. So again, as I work as, from an experience standpoint, to be a coach and get that 1%, there's a lot of people that are taking other people's work product and presenting it first person. And that's disingenuous. And that's what gets people in trouble. So there's a lot of education out there that actually is not education. It's information flow. Now, let's unpack that one. Information, information through the eyes of a subject matter expert, they can determine what is legitimate and what's BS. Yes. I use ChatGPT right now myself in certain disciplines. And so if I have my next statement as a reality experience, this is how I would coach the planet. Right now, when I use chat to look at something in my space of sales or leadership, let's say, 50% of the time, it is significantly better than what my brain could ever come up with. And then I take that and I add then Jeff McGee to it. But 50% of the time when I use it, it is dead wrong. Yes. So if it's dead wrong on what I know, and I'm doing a search on cybersecurity coach, your space, and I don't have you sitting next to me, I better use the same rulebook, at least right now, that, hey, it may be 50% right, but it could be 50% wrong. So I just want to caution our viewers out there and our business leaders that just because someone looks pretty, maybe has a really nice diploma on the wall from a cutting-edge college, do they know a damn thing? Because there's a lot of people out there, as my late grandfather who passed away decades ago had a comment that I didn't understand as a little kid that I understand profoundly today. Jeffrey, there's a lot of educated idiots on the planet. Be careful. And so, when you talk about information education, I think that's critical that yes, there's a lot out there. But being able to understand who has the chops because they've been there to help you to get the next step. That's another answer to that 1%. You study true 1%. You'll recognize they have a wide range of friends. But every one of them are a 1%er in their own space. Now, There's another thing about studying 1%. There's another thing about 1%. Some of these people that are in the top 1% today that a lot of people get excited to jump on their bandwagon, if you looked at their social media, if you looked at their resume, you would realize they are snake oil salesmen. They were scam artists sometime yesterday. No one is looking and seeing or wanting to acknowledge it because everyone wants to be like them today. And you just wait a couple of years and they're going to jail. They're going down because they're scamming again. So, this one little topic you brought up is critically important because people have to listen. I had a client in California years ago, major business. They went through a PE to gain some money, you know, and again, private equity. When they brought that company in, I said, you need to do the research. PE works 3 ways. It's going to come in and ruin your life at the end of the day. That's the majority of private equity money. Then there's another percentage of private equity money that are legit, sincere people that want to help to make your grow and be better. And those are the ones I want to play with because I can help them deal with all the human capital touchpoints I have. And then there's another part of human capital, part of private equity money coming in that they don't know what the hell they're doing. But they just want to play with something. They've inherited more money, they grow more money, they came into a windfall of money, you got to figure out who it is. Now with that, back to education comment. They're saying a lot of things right now to you, and they're bringing some big money to the table. But you know what, I've been around this block before, you're gonna get kicked to the curb in the next 24 months. Oh, it'll never happen. They're going to take advantage of you. Oh, I really believe them. Oh, this is never going to happen. Yes, it is. And 24 months later, they're at the curb and they're coming back going, wow, number one, thank you for not saying I told you so. But now number two, let me listen to you. What do we do? And we did a little damage control for them to at least walk away with, with some good money that should have been hellacious money. Yes.

Wow, that is so, so profound. Man, really gaining wisdom and knowing the difference. I guess you talked about self-curiosity earlier in the podcast. I feel like that's really a master skill, isn't it? Just for a person to decide what do I want to do and also being curious about the specific path or area and becoming an expert.

So let me answer that two ways. Let me take transformational and walk it into bold because I think it's a great way for me to answer So, what happened, I'm living in Las Vegas during COVID And this is happening around the globe, not just in the United States and not just in Las Vegas. But I'm seeing major businesses shut down, major businesses, you know, going out of business and major businesses thriving, falling in 3 buckets. And I realized, hey, here's the element. We live in a world where change is a word that's never going to go away. So, it's a billion-dollar industry, you're not going to win this. But the beauty is those who are paying attention are going to win. Yes. If you live in a world of change, what I realized is that you will never win. You can't win the change game. Because what change means is that you and I are having this meeting. And outside the universe, someone that influences our life is changing a policy, a procedure, a product line, a deliverable, a value stream, a supply chain, or something. And when we get off of this meeting, and we go back to our desk, and we get this update that something changed, we go, holy crap, how do I adapt? How do I adopt? How can I be agile? How can I, you know, do Lean Six Sigma? How can I apply all the models of the last several decades to somewhat And so change equals survival. So I tell people, you need to write down 3 words: change equals survive. If you live in a change world, the best you will ever be is a survivor. Now, maybe that's good, maybe that's bad. Second, so then we have this word transformation. And so transformation has been built into our head that a business is going to gear up for this one-time next year major transformation of a cybersecurity platform system or a CRM system or new robotics, or, you know, I'm going to be retiring from the military, or I'm going to be applying retiring from my job and then I'm going to do this major transformation. So, we always gear up for, you know, these major events is how transformation has to be. So, change, excuse me, equals survive. Transformation equals thrive. But those thrive is then a couple of days, weeks, or months later, you're no longer thriving. I realized, wait a second, here's the new reality we live in. And that's how I came up with the word transformational. The person who has the ability to realize change happens 24/7, it's never going to stop. But every time you see a change window open, if you are prepared to shove one of your transformations through that, that you've been waiting for the opportunity, but now it's right there, then you become transformational, and transformational equals win. And the only way you can win in life is when you're transformational. So in this book, I've got 5 core models. It's a fast, easy read. Everyone should have it on their list. Every business organization should make it the book of the month. It shouldn't even be a debate. It should be there. It's that simple. But that's kind of what led me into Bold Leadership with with Doug Hurtegen. So Doug and I have known each other for over 20-ish years. He's a CPA by trade, but I won't hold that against him. And he used to come to some of my conferences around the country to get his professional education credits to keep his license. And he's in the manufacturing space. So that's kind of a little bit different. He's a practicing business leader. He's not your traditional CFO, CPA, you know, let's just bounce on the numbers, but he is very brilliant with the numbers. And that's what helps him be successful. But some people don't want to, back to your earlier word, execute. If you don't execute MAPS for success, then eventually, you know, there's gonna be a breakpoint somewhere in a business. So we sat down and here's what we both realized kind of simultaneously. I'm not giving up on senior leadership at all. I'm doubling down on senior leadership. So while we spent a tremendous amount of time there, what we realized is if you truly want to affect success in a business, yes, you have to deal with from top down, but everything happens bottom up. Your frontline leaders have the ability to impact greater success on a daily basis. Than anyone else in the business. The challenge is you have to give them the tools to focus on where they are now. And you have to give them the tools to understand, quit bitching and complaining about all the things upstairs that they're not doing that they should that you have no control over right now. Focus your team, create a microcosm, a microculture of greatness where people want to be a part of you. And you start knocking the ball out of the ballpark and get attention for your greatness and success. And from that, people will buy into you and they're going to bring you into different table conversations where you can affect change. And there's two core models in this book. One is the word bold. Bold plays off of how you make decisions. But then the other is this Tree of Life concept that Doug kind of birthed. And within it is this humble, authentic self. And that really is the essence of the tree model. So we start with the roots and the culture and the ingredients of what is you. Then how do you create that strong trunk, that humble self-confidence? And then from that, what are the branches of, in essence, communication and empowerment and accountability, and et cetera, that at your level as a frontline supervisor, manager, leader, whatever the title is you wear, how do you affect greatness and create those opportunities for yourself to succeed and around you, the team to succeed? And if you do that, it's amazing magic. And I've done this in the military. For my military leaders, this would be like a first sergeant, this would be a company commander at that level. If they create an environment by which they truly genuinely, this is not lip speak, genuinely care about the human capital, the person on their team beyond just the job, beyond just the MOS or the AFSC, and they're doing that job and they create the environment by which they're there and they're all growing. Me, myself, I got to grow as the captain, or I got to grow as the first sergeant, but I want you to grow as well. We're all in this together. Then if people see it's sincere, what's amazing is that people will show up early and stay late and they don't even think of the clock. And then everyone else is thinking about, wow, they're doing a lot, they're busting their butts and they're having fun. How do I get transferred into your unit? So again, there's all of these tools are out there, but people don't slow down and pay attention. Just again, I'm sorry, I get a little excited and probably talking way too slow for our listeners.

No, this is, this is really great. So we talking about several books actually, but here, Change Happens and Transformation Occurs. Win by Being Transformational. That's really a great work. So, thank you so much for giving us all of the background on that. I guess one question I wanted to ask you about this book is what you call disruption interruption points, right? Or DIPs. How can leaders identify those moments before competitors do?

So, that's one of the major ahas that came out of this book. So, if you think about it, for our viewers, if you're familiar with the the grief cycle concept that your priest, your preacher, your minister might use, social workers, health workers, doctors use. And basically, what the grief cycle says, it has a flat line. And on the flat line where it starts, that's the normalcy of life, what we're expecting, what we always do, all our routines, SOP, KPIs, key performance indicators. And then we come upon a disruption, a loss of life, a family member, and that creates the bell curve. And so what happens is that we're no longer being productive, because now we go into this stunned disbelief of something that's just happened. And then we want it to go back the way it was, but because it can't, then we go from that, we go into anger. And then from anger, we have to go to blame someone and, you know, woe is me. And then eventually, you get to the top of that mountain called acceptance. And then you're able to go down the other side and find solutions to get back into that nether flatline of the bell curve. So, most people live, they want the bell curve. Most people, there's nothing negative about this. They want to go home at the end of the day, thinking that tomorrow needs to be just like yesterday. I want it for the most part to be the same. Yeah, you can have a little bit of difference and excitement, but people really do want this. Don't, you know, don't move my cheese, as the book was called many years ago. So we have that. But what happens is I have people put a percentage sign next to each of the words going up the mountain of this, you know, this bell curve of the grief cycle. And so what happens if you can reduce the amount of time you spend on each of those, you can get to the top for Success. There's a whole lot of information I put up there as to what winners do and how to get down the other side and get everyone to buy into success. But dips is this, right at the point where that, that bell curve starts, that's a disruption interruption point. And so again, here's another couple hundred thousand dollars worth of intel, write this down. So what happens is that we have to realize when a dip happens, what could you have already done back over here on this flat line in terms of what's my plans, my process, my strategies, my SOPs. So when this disruption happens, I don't have to think through how to get through it. I immediately introduce that solution plan that gets me to the top faster so I can get right back down to the other side. So what are the things? So as a business leader, have you stopped to ask yourself, what are the biggest disruptions that can happen in my business? Oh, Coach is my number one go-to player. He's going to go on vacation next month. Have I started in essence offloading his key work to someone else? I'm thinking, I said yes. So you're using the DIP model whether you realize it. But let me go further. So he, you know, Coach is going on vacation next month. Who's going to take over his work? But what if that person goes out sick? Do I know 2 or 3 deep on my talent pool who can do these different jobs? And most managers never think that way. They're flying by the skin of their pants every day by maybe I know one person that can do it. But if someone's out sick and then who's your number 3? Oh, that person's out on paternity, maternity leave. I mean, that may come down to you need to do it. Or I got to go to my boss and source, hey, I need another another person as a part-time player for a period of time. Or maybe it makes the case why you need 2 new employees added to your team versus what you have. So that's a dip. The second thing is if a dip happens and it's unexpected, who are the subject matter experts that you instantly have access to on a Zoom call or a Teams call or a phone call or in the building or a quick meeting that you can bring together and say, "Hey, this has just happened. I got 60 seconds left to make a decision. Give me 5 ideas." Or this just happened, I got to do something tomorrow. Let's rally through it tonight as to what to do. Or bring the team together. Hello, Human Capital. Bring the team together and say, hey, here's our challenge. The good news is, take a deep breath, everyone, and don't freak out. We don't have to do a doggone thing until tomorrow morning. So everyone, I want you to work on this tonight. What's your best idea? Let's get together an hour earlier tomorrow, please, if you can. I'll bring donuts. Let's brainstorm our ideas. I'll put them on the whiteboard. Whichever idea we as a group believe is best, best, put that into motion because I'm the boss. And guess what? As a boss, I don't have to have the answer. That's a major aha people don't realize. The first thing I've thought about, I learned, excuse me, from great leaders, military and non, great leaders do not have answers. Great leaders do not have answers. They either have learned or they have developed or they have been taught or they just innately know what are the right questions I need to be asking to the diversity of people I need to be posing it to. To elevate and illuminate the information necessary from which I then can make a more informed decision, or we can make a more informed decision. So then the one that we pick, they go, oh my gosh, coach is brilliant. Well, 10 minutes ago he was an idiot.

He didn't share that with you. So true. And I think it takes a lot of humility. And I think some of our greatest general and admiral in our military have been just like that. They create environment where those great answers can Absolutely.

And you talk about military, and that's a key element again about valor. So I wrote Valor with another great colleague of mine, you know, Colonel Kevin Preston, who retired from the United States Army as a colonel. He was with the Maryland Army National Guard. I had the honor to serve him many times when he was in the National Guard. He now is a senior executive with a major 100 corporation. But we wrote that book and we play off the word valor with all due respect because that word means something to all of us, but it really means someone who's in the military. So V-A-L-O-R. L-O-R, is a model and it's 5 steps of when you're in the military or out, but ideally, if you're in the military, whether retiring or not, doesn't matter. If you think about how you can leverage each of those 5 letters every day of every week of every month of your military career, you will put yourself in a position that when you transition out of the military, there should be a list, there should be a line of employers waiting to beg you to come to work for them. But the reason a lot of times people transition, they don't have a good job opportunity is because they don't know how to position themselves. Position themselves, market themselves, showcase themselves. So Valor goes through all those elements. So again, it's a great book. You can buy that one online as well. It's on Amazon, they're all on my website. And again, I've done programs. If you're in the military, there's military magazines. Kevin and I have been interviewed. We've written articles and shared some of the formula about Valor in them. And it's a great book for the military. But if you're not in the military, hey, you know what? A lot of what the private sector benefits off of, folks, in case you don't know this, is first incubated in the military. True. So everyone right now that's enjoying your microwave, you need to thank NASA and the military. Everyone that's enjoying any product you put in your microwave from instant to done, you need to thank, in essence, NASA and the military, because that's where all of those things came from. I love my Tang. A lot of people have no idea what that one means.

That is really powerful because there are quite a lot of people who watch this podcast who are in the military, not just the Navy, but many other branches as well. Just really, really briefly, I want them to get the book value. So, you talked about the 5 principles to live by that you represent by VAL. Can you tell us briefly what those are?

Yes. So, V is visibility. There's an adage everyone of us have grown up with called birds of a feather flock together. And a lot of times when that statement is offered, it's offered in actually a negative or constructive way. Birds of a feather flock together. You complain a lot, you hang out with other people that complain. You're in trouble with the law, you hang out with a bunch of other juvenile delinquents, or etc., etc. You know, you're always being, you know, questionable on how you cut corners in your job, it's because that's, you know, you hang around those same people, you know, at breaks. So, so V is all about visibility. How do you raise your visibility in the military, outside of the military? You know, what can you do in a non-self-serving way that draws attention to you, your own brand. Visibility— how do you also, uh, generate visibility of all of those influencers inside the military and outside the military? So I'm a big fan of LinkedIn. Anyone's been in any of my classes will hear different ways I talk about using LinkedIn. Whether you like it or hate it, doesn't matter. But right now, at the time of this recording, it's the number one largest social media platform in the world for professionals. Um, it's also the number one job search platform for professionals. But I use it to gather massive intel on my comp— competition, uh, on my on my customers' customers. So V is visual, is visibility. A is awareness, ways to gain awareness to roles, responsibilities. If you think cybersecurity is where you wanna go when you retire from the military in 12 years or in 2 years or in 20 years, well then you need to start putting yourself in a trajectory right now in the military to gain awareness of what are all the cybersecurity sorts of jobs, certifications, and education. Put yourself in that position 'cause by the time you retire, you can have tons of clearances that are worth a lot of money to someone who doesn't have them.? Because again, employers will pay big bucks because what you're already able to do. Then, so that's VA. The L is leverage. How do you leverage these relations? How do you leverage your knowledge base? How do you leverage these jobs? How do you leverage connectivity with other people? O is opportunities. How do you create opportunities or identify opportunities or participate in these opportunities? How do you show up? I had a Command Sergeant Major years ago say, Jeff, the problem with us being able to fire people from the military, and there's a great number of them that we need to drop kick out of here is here's the problem. I have someone in the military that did their own job, did a good job, got written up and has a positive, in essence, you know, NCO or officer performance review. Then the next one, they did their job, they got a positive performance review. The next one, they're on a team and they didn't really do a lot of work, but the team got a positive write-up, therefore they get one. Then the fourth time, they do less, but the team got an accolade, they get that, that's in their jacket. Then the fifth time, they did nothing except bitch and complain over all toxic, but the team did a lot of great stuff. They got acknowledged. That's in their jacket. You know what? Now it's almost impossible to fire them because everyone's going to see them as a winner, even though the last 3 performers of you should have said they're a loser, but no one had the guts to say that. And so, that's another look at the opportunities. And last one is relationships. How do you build these relationships today, tomorrow, and forever? So, VALOR is visibility, awareness, leverage, opportunity, and relationships. And in each chapter, I give, in essence, examples. I also give formulas and models and techniques. And then Colonel Preston just overlays exactly from his tenure from NCO to officer and from officer to civilian, how he sees this. And now today, the company he's with is again, is a very valuable business that everyone wants to work for. And everyone's asking him, how do you get there? And he just tells people, hey, there's a lot of ways to show up. Now, the last caveat to all of that military people have to understand, but this applies to anyone. Yes. Is who you're going in to interview. You have to understand how to take your knowledge in life of experiences and the words and lexicon that might, maybe is how you talked yesterday. And you have to put it into the lexicon and language of where you're going. The military speaks in words, law, and jargon that the civilian world doesn't understand. And sometimes because you come in and part of being in the military is you're never supposed to show you have a personality or smile. Well, the civilian world might think you're a grumpy, ugly person. Well, let the smile out. Commander, right there, you got a great smile. So you just let that slide right out there. They're, shame on you. My boss is never supposed to smile. They're supposed to be in a good mood. Yes. You have to know how to defuse the preconceptions people may have of you. But what you're taught in the military is very valuable in any job today. Everyone wants someone who knows how to create structure and thrive in structure because no matter how loose a business is, it still has to have structure. People want reliability. They want people that are loyal, dedicated, committed, have work ethic, all of the KPI trademarks to the military personnel any business would want. So again, yes, rock solid. Wow. Anyone is a part of the 1% when they start. You decide to step out of it. That's the way to look at it.

Well, well, well, I'm really glad the way this interview turned out. But we talked about a lot of your work. I want people to notice the Managerial Leadership Bible. This is really, really great. I'm gonna get a copy of that myself. But we also started with transformational. And then we talked about bold leadership. And finally, we just talked about valor. It looks like we are out of time. Can you give me 5, 10 more minutes? Do you have to go now?

Absolutely. And if anyone wants to follow more of me, again, my name's on the screen. It's JeffreyMcGee.com or ProfessionalPerformanceMagazine.com. You can go to JeffreyMcGeeMasterclass.com for more, you know, on ways we can help you.

Yeah. Dr. Jeff Speaks on LinkedIn and jeffreymagui.com and professionalperformancemagazine.com. Outstanding. So let me— Okay. I do value your time, but I think you have too much knowledge and wisdom. I could be talking to you for hours and hours and hours, but okay. We need to land this plane down quickly. Let me do this. Let's do a lightning round and I'm gonna ask you a question and you answer as quickly as you can, as briefly as you can. Okay. So number 1, what is one leadership habit every successful leader must develop? Humble. Humility. Perfect. What book has influenced your life the most outside of your own books? Of course.

Great question. Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People.

Yeah. Yeah. That one has been very, very recommended on this podcast, like a lot. Okay. My people know about that one. Uh, what does success mean to you today versus like 20 years ago? Legacy. Okay. What about failure? We talk a lot about successes and you have a lot of successful achievement. What has failure taught you?

My stack of failure exceeds my stack of success. Thank you for being so polite. Uh, failure has taught me actually several things. It's taught me about people. Who are the people you can truly trust and what are the traits and characteristics early on that tell you you can trust them versus people that very disingenuous. If you're paying attention, you would realize at the very beginning, while you still might have needed to interact with them, you need to be very protective and careful because there is a lot of disingenuous actors on the planet. Second thing, failure has taught me how to take what I did last time, apply it to this time, so I have fewer next times. I don't want to be reinventing failure twice.

Say that one more time, please.

Failure helps me to realize what did I learn and what did I do or not do last time What is it that I need to do this time so there won't be a next time? Wow. Powerful, powerful.

You've shared so many ideas. And I'm telling you, when I was 17, 18, 19 years old, just one of those ideas could have really changed the trajectory of my life. That is so powerful. What are you learning these days? I know leaders are learners.

Again, you folded a couple of questions. Number one, if I was talking to that 23-year-old or that younger person, I'd tell them to believe in yourself longer, faster, better, and just try, go with it. And therefore, what I'm learning today is what I would be telling that younger person to believe in myself, quit allowing skepticism to creep in, pessimism to creep in, quit allowing excuses to creep in that I'll do this tomorrow when I needed to have already done it yesterday. So I'm learning a lot. You know, AI is a powerful tool. I've long since embraced it. So that's not something I would say, well, I'm learning how to use it. Now because if you don't know how to use it now, you're already too late. Uh, so you need to pick up the pace and catch your bus. Uh, so that's what I'm learning now. And I'm learning how to really recognize some people stunningly don't want to be better. Some people truly don't want to be better. And that, that, that blows my brain up because that's absolutely opposite of my DNA. And so that's what I'm really, really working with now is to vet faster All those people that I believe in them, and I know that they are at the, at the tip of phenomenal greatness, but they just don't want to go forward. So until they're ready, I don't need to, I don't need to push them. I need to go find the one who is ready. The big planet, a lot of places.

Yeah. I think what he probably says, right? When the student is ready, the teacher shows up. And wow. So let's talk about the 17, 18, 20-year-old person. A lot of people who are watching now, I do mentor, and a lot of them, they deal with imposter syndrome, right? They may have jobs and things and they are fully qualified, but they feel like they are imposters and they really don't belong to the seat. What would you tell to them?

Absolutely love it. So first of all, imposter syndrome doesn't exist. Blow that up. Just like everyone's going to walk out on the stage and go, "I'm a change expert. Let me talk to you about change today." I mean, walk out of the room and idiots about to talk. People talk about impostor. Now, I'm being a little facetious. I think we give too much air and oxygen to the topic. We allow imposter syndrome to creep in. Let's unbundle that. Why are you not taking the step forward? Ask and answer. Why are you not applying for the job? Ask and answer. Why are you not walking in or saying, that was my idea, not Coach's? Ask and answer. Why are you not sending an email ahead of time conversationally? Yes. That also can be used as a CYA documentation later, ask and answer. Why do we still keep seeking adulation and affirmation from someone that we don't really need to be a part of? Groucho Marx had one of those classic lines that you talked about, the teacher, see one that, you know, any group that want you to be a part of it, I probably don't want to be a part of them. I think a lot of times we are seeking And social media has accelerated this over the decades. And so a lot of people grew up with this, you know, how many likes, how many people love me, what do they say? It's horrific. And we see young people completely cratered by someone making negative comments on social media and they take their life. But then as a society, we don't do that, do anything to hold the person accountable that created that crap. So we keep having more of that crap. Sometimes when I'm really pissed off, pardon my language, on social media and someone makes a post, I just respond by saying, hey, You get exactly what you condone and tolerate. If you don't like what happened in that community, everyone in that community needs to have a wake-up call. Quit yelling at me, quit yelling at the government. You get what you tolerate. If that school, in essence, is not doing its job, it's because you tolerate it. If someone, in essence, is doing something bad, it's because you tolerate it. We have a society, and we have this as an epidemic in businesses, where if it's not just really in my space, we keep ignoring it. So, on and on and on with ways to answer that that question. But imposter syndrome, why do you feel you have it? It's fear of I've never stood up for myself. Okay, let's figure out how to do that then. Yes. I don't think I have the skill set. Wait a second. Go back to my triangle. Imposter syndrome. Do you have more aptitude and knowledge on this topic than anyone else? Yes. Okay, shut up. Application. Have you done more on this than anyone else? Yes. Shut up. Then why are you not doing it? Oh, woe is me. Tell that guy to shut up and go in there because now they start to ask questions, you can answer any questions given to you because you have the knowledge and you've been doing it. So your fear is if they actually start asking questions, you're going to be caught to be fake. That's not imposter syndrome, you're fake.

Wow, that is powerful, powerful. Now, uh, we do have a question from the, uh, audience. I, I really love those because when I first started this podcast 5 years ago, it was just me, myself, and I, but now we actually have— I don't know, just so the So the question, so he is coming to us from Orlando. Hold on just one second. I really love it when the technology is supposed to work the way it is. Where is my chat now? Oh, hold on. Here we go, sorry. All right, so Daniel says, Dr. Magui, in a disrupted world, what is the one leadership behavior that most reliably turns talent development into transformational momentum rather than just another well-intended program. Absolutely love it, Daniel.

You've nailed it. And thank you. So I think that starts with, are we genuinely looking at the education that we're going to provide to the demographic— me, myself, you, the team, all of us, whoever— that is going to be an ongoing process? That's the first thing. We have all grown up when we go to a training program, singular, We're going to go somewhere for certification, singular. And so, what happens, the reason it's not transformational is because it's one and done. You cannot be transformational unless you have ongoing. You as an individual are transformational because, and however you finish that, I will guarantee, Daniel, if you unbundle it, it's because you're always pushing yourself to do this. You're always reading, always learning, always applying, always trying. You're part of another group of people online or face-to-face or trade association demographic group where you're always coming together to push yourself, et cetera, et cetera. Cybersecurity, the Black Hat group, when you guys come to Vegas once a year, you're with your, you know, you're with your tribe as they they say your family, your friends, your network, et cetera. So, if you wanna make it a continuation, Daniel, you've absolutely hit the billion-dollar question. It has to be ongoing. And so, that's the one reason why things are not transformational is because it's one and done. You cannot transformationally do anything one and done. I create a new CRM system for my company, it's gonna be transformational. 2 out of 100 people use it, it's not gonna be transformational because the majority of the team is not buying into it. So, buy-in, alignment, commitment, identify individual subject matter expert advocates, champions, allies that can advocate for these things and push it forward. You don't always have to be the subject matter expert that's speaking. You don't have to be the only instructor. When I come in, I quickly, in my leadership programs, start identifying who are the silent rock stars in the room that have never been watered and fertilized and allowed to stand up. And next, you know, I'm pulling them in in a non-threatening way. So they will start to lean in. I have an example of one organization where A mid-level manager had phenomenal ideas but was shy to share them. So we break the room down into small teams. One of my little secrets is I present some ideas, I shut up, small teams talk about them, apply them, we debrief the room, we maybe go into bigger groups. But every time someone has a great idea, I'll say, "You know what, Daniel, that's a phenomenal idea. Would you do this for me? Would you do me a favor? Would you send me an email with this idea fleshed out and how you see it to be being used within our team or organization and helping the company be more successful?" successful, proficient, or profitable. Send it to me. What I want you to do is I want you— you know what, wait a minute, Daniel, no, that's not— no, I want you to send it to who you believe in this company owns that topic. And I want you to CC me. And then when it goes through, I'm going to immediately send an email to the person you're sending to saying that Daniel's in my program, Daniel's a rock star, this is a phenomenal idea, I encourage him to do it. Please read that email. And then assign it to all the people that can bring it to life. Wow. And you do that 1 or 2 times. Now Daniel's a rock star. Now he's doing it. Now I'm making a transformation. Now it's not a one and done. And then I get other people in the next class, in the next program, in the next meeting, and they do these things. Again, you want to get people to buy in, you got to get people involved. So those are some of the answers. Daniel, thank you for the question.

Wow. Powerful. That's not just mentorship, that's sponsorship. That is powerful. Wow. Okay. So much to talk about. We've already run out of time. I want to respect your time, Let me ask you this. What do you believe is the secret of your success? Because you've been successful in so many areas. You studied journalism, sales, publishing, executive advisory work, talent development, leadership coaching, global speaking, on and on and on and on. Why are you so successful, sir?

Everything I do has a connected string to everything I do. So the coaching is tied into talent development, or talent development is tied into coaching. Senior person in organization, business owner, advisory. So I've been in those seats. I can speak to them first person, back to my Triangle of Excellence model. I don't step into spaces I don't know first person. There are way too many people that know it. Why step into an area I don't need to be in? I can, in essence, sit down and let you be the expert. Let me learn from you. I think that's one reason. Two, I'm excited about what I do. When you are no longer excited to get out of bed to do what you do, when you no longer have the passion, the curiosity, the energy, the innovative juice to do what you do, it's time to transition, hand out the baton to someone else, find a new role for you in the organization. Doesn't mean you have to leave the organization, maybe it does. Again, you know, Benjamin Franklin talked about the person who empties their purse into their head will never be bankrupt. Same mindset. When you stop learning and doing, you might as well, you know, buy the casket, buy the ground and dig the hole. You're gonna be jumping in there pretty damn fast. As long as your brain's going, the rest of the body is gonna race to stay up. Yes.

Wow, powerful. So as we end, let me ask you this: if you had one and only one day to live, what would you have liked your final contribution to be?

Legacy that holds me accountable. What did I do that will live beyond me? And I think about legacy, then it's not one thing. It could be emptying my wallet. I'm a billionaire, that's a big thing. They've been doing for 20 years. I want to, you know, donate my money to XYZ. That's legacy. Or I want to help a homeless person. That's legacy. I want to go out and build a house. Jimmy Carter. That's legacy. I want to go out and I want to go sit on the beach and just enjoy the sand between my feet and the water slapping up on me and have a cold drink and watch the beautiful palette that God has painted before me. I mean, that's like— I mean, so I think the word legacy will drive anyone to a great destination.

So if you had the magic wand and you could solve any problem in the world, What is the one problem you'd like to solve first thing tomorrow morning?

Oh, I think the root of every problem is called prejudice, period. Every problem on the planet is prejudice. North Korea has a prejudice, and that's why it thinks it has to have all this military to protect itself because it thinks everyone wants to hurt it. No, no one wants to freaking hurt you. You're an idiot. You know, I don't like you because, Coach, your skin color is different than me. I don't, I was not born to have that mindset. That's a learned prejudice. Every prejudice, number one, is learned. And if you eliminate prejudice, guess what? No one has a freaking clue. Go watch 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 little kids under the age of 5. They have very little prejudice yet because they're still trying to figure out everything in life. They'll play— I mean, I was at a baseball game the other day to watch my great nephew, 7 years of age, win. His age and the entire city of Houston, his team won and got these big Super Bowl-sized rings. It was crazy. And at the beginning, I went out an hour early just to watch the practice. And here's this little 3-year-old baby girl that walks up the bleachers to sit down next to me. She's looking at me kind of figuring out, is this guy good or bad, safe or not? And then within a couple of minutes, I mean, she is just a chatterbox. Her mom was down like looking up in stunned disbelief. An hour later, the stands are busy. You know, she calls back up with a bag of candy to give me some candy. I'm like her best friend. I know everything about her, her dogs, her brother's name, where they live. I mean, people have a prejudice. We teach it at every age, in every business. Oh, what's the new person gonna tell me? You're already prejudiced. Yes. If I can remember one thing, you're really prejudiced and everyone's playing. I have a lot of hope with Gen Z.

My kids, they're just formidable. I learned so much from them, just the way they come together, they live, they really support each other in community. I feel like the future of America is gonna be just fine. Maybe the old generation needs to die off first, but yeah, our future is pretty, pretty bright, I must say. So every good thing needs to come to an end. Is there a question I should I've asked you, sir. I didn't get a chance to ask anything you wanted to share today. No question.

Let me ask you the question. How are you doing?

I'm doing great. I am just learning. I mean, I am here really sitting at the feet of a master. Really, thank you for teaching us out of your experience. More than 30 years you've been doing this, and you've spoken to the brightest minds in the world in this subject, and it's just amazing. So as we close, I want to ask, how can we add value back to you, sir.

I love it. Absolutely great. You know, a business owner, business leader— you are a business owner, you are a business leader, your team is doing great, and you're saying, you know what, how do we go to the next level? Reach out to me. You know someone that's struggling and you believe in them from the sideline and you know they shouldn't be struggling? Reach out to me. So, you know, DM me on LinkedIn, let's connect, let's follow. Every day I post a developmental video, or I did on LinkedIn. I don't sell on LinkedIn. I'm not bragging on LinkedIn. I try to plus the LinkedIn community. So if you follow me, you're getting free master classes. But thank you for that question. So you need me, you know someone that can use me, let me know who they are.

Fantastic. Okay, so to end the show, I must ask this, um, if every military officer, entrepreneur, executive, and aspiring leader right now listening remembered only one lesson from our conversation today, what would you want that lesson to be?

Frameworks. Everything in life is built on a framework. How you cook tonight, your dinner, there's a framework. There's a beginning and an end, and there's the right steps in between. Every one of my books I've written on my own, or I've collaborated with some phenomenal individuals, we're providing a framework in the spirit of that That book's theme, to get from A to Z. A is where you are and Z is going to be your dream and your success. So framework. Life is about framework, solutions, recipes, formulas. It's all the same word. What's your framework?

Powerful. Well, this is a great place to end. Thank you again for your time, giving us an extra 15 minutes. Really, really do appreciate that. I'm gonna have to listen to this myself over and over again. Thank you so much, Dr. Jeffrey Mangi.

Thank you, sir, and thank you all for your time.

All right, everybody, this is one for the book. And I must say, this has really been a great, great conversation and really the way I am thinking about it. So again, first of all, I am so grateful to Dr. Maggie for taking the time to really talk to us today. I think this conversation was far more than just a discussion about business leadership or performance, right? It was about a masterclass on Transformation, talent, and intentional growth. So I think one of the greatest takeaways for me today is, uh, success is not accidental. Winning requires clarity, discipline, urgency, adaptability, and the courage to continuously reinvent yourself in a changing world. So whether you are leading sailors at sea, like I've had in my past, or defending organizations in cyberspace, or building teams in Silicon Valley, or trying to grow personally or professionally, The principle you, Dr. Maggie, shared with us today, they really remind us that leadership begins within, right? He talks a lot about curiosity. You need to have that curiosity. You need to have that drive, right? You can take a horse to the water, but you cannot make the horse drink. So I think I really appreciate the emphasis on people being the ultimate competitive advantage, right? Technology will evolve. AI will continue to disrupt industry. Markets will shift, but leadership, trust, culture, and human performance will always, always, always matter. Leaders who invest in people, unleash talent, and embrace transformation will be the ones who thrive in the future. One leadership mantra I live by, and I think we stole it from the Army, is mission first, but people, people always. All right, that's what I am going to leave you with today. Thank you so much for watching. As you know, we celebrate Black History Year here. I have written a couple of posts about Black history today. Now, I'm gonna try to play a short video about these two subjects, but for one of them, I don't think I can play the entire video because it is too sad and too horrible. But you can go to my LinkedIn and find out what happened today. Today is May 19th, May 19th, 1918, in Georgia. It is about Mary Turner. Her talk enraged a white mob who had lynched her husband, and they hanged her, and she was pregnant, 8 months pregnant. Just very, very horrible story. So today we do remember Mary Turner, one of the most horrific, horrific acts of racial terror in American history, the lynching of Mary Turner in Brooks County, Georgia. That's all I'm going to say about that, Now, the great news, and to celebrate, I want to talk about Constance Baker Motley. She was the very first African American woman to serve as a federal judge. Actually, I have a short video I'm going to play about this on our way out. So I also want to remind you guys, I will have two more interviews. I won't have any interviews tomorrow. I am going to be speaking at the Apex Assembly. I have a 30-minute keynote speech. Tomorrow in San Francisco. However, the day after tomorrow, I will have two wonderful people I'm gonna be speaking with. I hope you guys can join me. One of them is a Maxwell Leadership Coach like myself. And actually, I guess I'm gonna be speaking to two coaches yesterday, I mean, on day after tomorrow. The first person is going to be Dr. Ben Fayil, OD. We're going to be talking about the Purpose-Driven Leader. So he's an I doctor as well. And right after him on Thursday, I'm going to be speaking to Coach Cassandra Light. We're going to be talking about the Confidence Shift: Leading Clearly Under Pressure. So that's what I have planned for you. And I believe on Friday, I won't have an interview, but we're probably going to go back and talk about the Book of Proverbs This time, chapter 24. Again, that's not gonna be a religious broadcast. It's about the ancient wisdom and leadership lesson from a book written more than 2,000 years ago that is still relevant today in the age of AI. Okay, that's all I have for you. So I'm gonna play two short clips on the way out, one about Mary Turner and the other one about the first female African American judge in our history. Bye for now.

You think of Georgia, the U.S. state, many people think of southern hospitality, peaches, and the city of Atlanta, Georgia Bulldogs, historic Savannah, the Appalachian Mountains in the northern part of the state. The state is also known for its diverse landscape ranging from coastal beaches to mountains. Heavily influenced with rap and hip-hop music, But there's also something else that lies in the South, a history that no one really knows about or cares to talk about anymore. From coming across the nicest Georgia peaches you've ever seen, whether that be fruit or women, there was a time where Black people had to fight to survive. On May 19, 1918, a white mob from Brooks County, Georgia lynched Mary Turner, a a Black woman who was 8 months pregnant at Folsom Bridge, 16 miles north of Valdosta, for speaking publicly against the lynching of her husband the day before. The mob bound her feet, hanging her.

As President Biden prepares to nominate the first Black woman to the Supreme Court, it's an apt time to revisit another historic first. Nicole Ellis has more.

Constance Baker Motley was the first Black woman appointed to the federal judiciary. Her career is punctuated by several historic firsts, and her work as a fearsome civil rights litigator alongside Thurgood Marshall changed the lives of millions in the Jim Crow South. But most people have never heard of her. Harvard Law Professor Tomiko Brown-Nagin hopes to change that in her new book, Civil Rights Queen. Tomiko, thank you for joining me. Constance was one of the best litigators of her time. She was also the first Black woman to argue before the Supreme Court. What do you think are some of the most important things about her legacy?

Yes, well, the first thing is to know that she was there in the thick of the civil rights movement alongside Thurgood Marshall, Mr. Civil Rights. She was a civil rights queen and had tremendous impact as a lawyer, helping on Brown v. Board of Education and a range of cases that really changed the legal architecture of of this country, ranging from the higher education cases to cases involving the right to counsel and civil protest. Uh, her legacy is tremendous, uh, including because after she had made history as a civil rights lawyer, she was in New York City politics and then appointed to the bench.

Let's dive into some of those big cases she worked on because she wrote the original complaint in Brown v. Board of it.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, innovation and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.