S5:E123🎙️ LIVE with Coach Brady Pyle

Hi, I'm John Maxwell. When the top companies in the world are looking for trainers, speakers, and coaches, there's one name that stands above the rest, and that's Maxwell Leadership. Our certified team members have gotten proven results for companies all over the globe, and our reputation, I'm proud to say, is second to none. Some of our members have risen to the top of their profession, including the one you're going to meet today. I proudly introduce you to my friend, Bob Fabien Zinga.

Welcome to the Leadership Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ, where we help you lead with purpose and succeed with impact. If you're ready to grow into the kind of leader others want to follow, this podcast is for you. If you're determined to elevate your success and leave a lasting legacy, this podcast is for you. As my mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell, reminds us, everything rises and falls on leadership. Our goal is simple: to inspire you, challenge you, and equip you with insights that can transform the trajectory of your leadership journey. Welcome aboard to another episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast with Coach BZ.

So I began to challenge some of those notions around leadership, and I have seen, I have observed and then experienced that you can be yourself and be an effective leader. I've seen effective introverted leaders, I've seen effective extroverted leaders, I've seen ineffective introverted and extroverted leaders. What I was getting the sense in that leadership development program is we were pushing toward one style of leadership, and I don't think that's effective or the way to go. I think you need a diversity in your leadership styles as well. So quiet leadership is about asking questions, you know, not always giving answers. It's about listening more as well. So be a good listener. As a leader.

All right, we have a very special guest for you today. Thank you so much for watching this edition of the Leadership and Success Podcast. We have a very special guest for you today. But before we get started and introduce our guest, let's do what we do here, which is, as a custom, we call it moment of gratitude. This is where we take just a moment every single time that we meet to be grateful for one thing every day. And part of the reason why we do this, as you may know, is because in the military, we have service members and also veterans who commit suicide every single day in this country. It's about 21, 22 service members and veterans who commit suicide every single day. And, I believe it's not possible, right, to be grateful and to be suicidal at the very same time. So if you would, you should know what to do by now. Maybe close your eyes, put yourself in your happy place, take a deep breath, slow down your nervous system, and think about one thing you are grateful for in this very moment. What are you grateful for today? And today I am really grateful for all of the emerging leaders in all kinds of industries. I do know that we are now living in the age of artificial intelligence, but I think the most critical skill, I believe, in the 21st century is really leadership. And I am so excited about the next generations of leaders all around the world in all kinds of industry. And let's say hello to Daniel Young, very active member of our tribe here on the Leadership Success Podcast, joining us from Medland, Florida. So let us know where you are joining us from, what city, what state, and if outside of the US, which country. And also let us know what you are grateful for in the comments. And if you do have a question for my guest, go ahead and type it in the comment and we will be answering you live. So now let me see if I can properly introduce our guest today. Today I am really honored and privileged to be coming to you live with Brady Powell. He's a retired NASA executive, Chief Human Resources and Inclusion Officer, Space Center Houston leadership speaker, and author. I believe that few organizations in history have really inspired the world like NASA. Uh, from landing astronauts on the moon to building the International Space Station, NASA has consistently accomplished what many believed was impossible. But behind every mission, Every launch and every breakthrough is something even more important— people. And my next guest today, Brady Powell, spent more than 30 years helping NASA attract, develop, and lead the talented people who made those missions possible. Brady retired as NASA's Deputy Chief Human Capital Officer after an extraordinary career supporting astronauts, engineers, scientists, and leaders across the agency. Today, He serves as Chief Human Resources and Inclusion Officer at Space Center Houston and continues to help organizations build cultures that inspire excellence, innovation, and mission success. He's also the bestselling author of two outstanding books, Building Culture the NASA Way: Mission Critical Principles for Creating Any Organization Culture, and also Out of This World Leadership: Living the Fruit of the Spirit to Lead Well. And we're gonna be talking about those two books shortly. Whether you lead a military unit, cybersecurity team, or nonprofit organization, I really believe that Brady's insight will help you become a more effective leader. Part of what you're gonna learn today is how NASA became one of the most respected organizations in the entire world, and also how to build a mission-driven culture that helps people thrive. So without any further ado, please help me welcome to the Leadership Success Podcast, the one and only Brady Hybe. Good morning, Brady. How are you doing today?

Yeah, great to be with you, Coach GPZ.

Yeah, great honor and privilege to be speaking to you today. Man, you've really done so much. Maybe to get started, is there— can you still hear me? Yes. Anything you are grateful for today?

I'm definitely grateful for family, BZ. We actually just moved our middle son up to Dallas. He got his first job. We've got 2 of our 3 kids off the payroll now. So, but very grateful for family, for their health and their success as well.

Yeah, I have 2 kids myself. My first one got a bachelor's degree last year and my second one is going to college this fall. We're going to be empty nesters, I guess. But yeah, what a blessing it is. Is there something about you, Brady, that most people may not know when they first meet you?

Yeah, so one of the things that a lot of people don't know is I have an older brother who is 4 years older. His favorite TV show was The Brady Bunch. So that's how I got the name Brady. I was so glad that his favorite show was not Gomer Pyle.

Wow, that is pretty cool. Yeah, I remember that show, and I think that character was on The Andy Griffith Show, right? Is that— if I remember. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That is awesome. So you've spent more than 30 years helping rocket scientists, astronauts, engineers, and executives perform at the highest levels imaginable at NASA. I guess my first question is, what leadership lesson did you learn at NASA that surprised you the most and that every leader can apply regardless of industry?

Yeah, I think, I think one of the key lessons that I learned, and I learned it fortunately very early, is as a young leader, I stepped into a leadership role And I kind of expected to have a grand vision for the team. So I had spent a lot of time kind of preparing a vision. And when I went to my first team and kind of talked to them about it, of course they were disappointed because they had their own ideas as well. So I ended up having to back up, really understand their perspectives, their input, and fortunately learned early in my leadership career that it's more important to have a shared vision for the future and a grand vision of your own. Um, I think John Maxwell likes to say, if you're leading and you're so far out in front of your followers, you're just taking a walk, you know, you're not really leading them.

Yes, yes, yes, I've heard Dr. John Maxwell say, say that too. Uh-huh, that is really fascinating because, um, during research for the show, I found out that, um, you often credit your father and your grandfather for teaching you 3 core values, right? Excellence, integrity, and improvement. How did those values shape your leadership philosophy?

Well, they definitely, uh, shape me as an individual and, and shape how I show up as a leader. Um, I find that those 3 values are so, um, deeply embedded in me and so core to, to who I am that those tend to be the frustrations that I'll have with, with my team members. If, if they're not working with excellence, if they don't do what they say, or if they're not looking to get better over time, if they're kind of just satisfied with the status quo. I found that those things really irritate me as a leader, probably again because they're, they're core to who I am and how I grew up.

Wow, that is quite fascinating. I think one of my mentors, Mike Murdock, said something like, there is a clue to your purpose or your destiny in what frustrates you. Maybe God called you to be part of the solution. And I also heard one of my preachers, he was kind of joking, but he was quite serious. He's like, okay, I just got a haircut, but some of you guys, you may not like the way I look or whatever, you just want to put your hand on my head and kind of fix it is because it's something in you. That's like, you know, that's why I came to the world to fix bad, bad haircut and make people look handsome, pretty, or whatever the case might be. And I've really found that to be so true. Like, even myself, there are some things that just irritate me, and I'm just almost— which word should I use— almost obsessed about certain things. And my wife is like, okay, that doesn't do anything to me. It's like, no, this has to be fixed or I don't have peace, right? It's kind of incredible how we are all wired completely differently. And now it seems like you felt called to public service when you were just a teenager. Looking back, how did that sense of purpose influence your career decision?

Yeah, and you faded a little bit there, Coach Bizy, but I think you were asking about my, my calling to public service and kind of how that played out. Um, so I, I was in the 9th grade and I felt a very distinct calling to, to go be a government employee.

Wow.

Um, my, my brother went to, to college at Texas A&M University. At the time, it was schools that offered co-op education opportunities to non-engineering students. So I went to A&M, went into the co-op program. I had actually applied to work first at the CIA and they said, well, what, what country or international organization are you most interested in? And I said, well, I'm really interested in the US and it's not for you. And I ended up with the Department of Health and Human Services and I interviewed with them for a job in DC. I had always wanted to go work in Washington, to DC. Uh, when I interviewed, I was a sophomore and they said, hey, we typically hire graduate students, but if you go work in our Dallas office, if that works out, you can come to DC. So I was able to work in Dallas and DC, and that— those were both in personnel offices at the time. Um, and that's where I fell in love with HR and, uh, being part of the government. So I went to grad school for HR and then ended up in the graduate co-op program at NASA. That's how I landed the job at the Johnson Space Center here in Houston.

That's pretty amazing. Yeah, when I think of NASA, I always think of our President JFK when he said, you know, we are going to send a man to the moon. Yeah. And I think he said in the next 10 years, right? And it's like, we were like, no, that's not possible. Absolutely impossible. But then we made it happen. It's just incredible.

Wow.

It's amazing what we, what the country can do, the people can do with resources. They had a lot of resources to make that vision a reality. And what NASA operates on today is a small fraction of those resources, and we're going back to the moon and doing different things as well.

Yeah, because I remember, no, one thing he said, no, ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country. It's just amazing how one speech can be so memorable and pretty much change the vision of an entire country and bring people together. And it's just pretty much achieved the impossible. That's just Outstanding. So, uh, you rose from HR intern to NASA's Deputy Chief Human Capital Officer. Wow, what a title! What were the pivotal moments that prepared you for executive leadership?

Yes, I would say that I took a stair-step approach to leadership progression, and I started, I built a foundation as an HR representative that was kind of an internal management consultant at NASA. I did that for 10 years and then I moved into kind of a frontline leader role of that group. I did that job for about a year and then I moved over for a year and managed our training and development function. So a little different function in HR. Then for a year I went to Washington, D.C. as part of a leadership development program and I got a headquarters perspective. And then I was able to work outside of NASA at the World Bank. So I got a different perspective there. Came back, did some workforce planning, and then I became a leader of leaders kind of as our deputy HR director at the Johnson Space Center. I did that for about 3 years, and then I went and served as a frontline leader in engineering for 9 months because we—

wow—

we talked about the importance of that role to culture and engagement. So I wanted to walk in the shoes of a frontline leader. Um, did that, and then I became an executive in 2015, uh, at the Johnson Space Center, did, did the HR director job there for about 3 years. And then NASA changed its whole model and we went to, instead of being decentralized where each center, uh, had its own HR, finance, procurement, uh, all of those support functions were managed functionally. So my role in 2018 shifted to become kind of the director of HR services. Wow. Ultimately the Deputy Chief Human Capital Officer, where I was responsible for leading the executives at all the 10 field locations. But it was each of those, I would say, successive steps, you know, and progressive movement that really helped me in my career. I think if I had skipped any of those steps, I would have missed valuable lessons along the way. Wow. What is one of the greatest lessons you learned throughout your NASA Yeah, I think, I think one of them is make sure you have a mentor because I'll go back to 2004. So right after the Space Shuttle Columbia accident, I was responsible for hiring in our engineering organization and the accident investigation board said NASA had given too much work to the contractor and they needed to bring some work back into NASA and have better oversight. And so my kids at the time were 4 and 2. So I would go home, have dinner with the family, help put the kids to bed, then I would go back into work. And I had a mentor at the time who said, you know, hey, you really need to focus on your role as a husband as well. Easy to focus on your role as a father when you've got young kids, and then you're passionate about the work, so you can get caught up in the work. And I, I saw a lot of people at NASA who sacrificed, uh, family, um, for, for their job. And yes, uh, I, I think in the absence of that mentoring conversation, I could have, could have been down a similar path.

That is so critical. I think it's the million-dollar question, right? Because a lot of people who watch this show they ask, how do you get life-work balance? Is that even possible? What is your advice for that?

I'm sorry, Coach, you broke up a little bit there.

I talked about life-work balance. How do you achieve that?

Yes.

Okay.

So first I would say we didn't really like that term. At NASA, we, we use the term work-life fit because we felt like the term balance was a misnomer where you're trying to balance it. And work-life fit, uh, there's a recognition that sometimes you have greater needs at work. Like that example I just shared, I mean, I, my workload increased and needed to, uh, to hire people so we could return the shuttle to flight. Um, sometimes your life needs spike, you know, you— babies are born or people get sick at home, family members, you've got to, you got to take care of that. So, and the other reason we use the term work-life fit is your preferences vary over time. So as a young father, I had different work-life fit needs than I do today as an empty nester.

Yeah.

And, you know, there are different, different desires at different life stages for different people. One of the things I really tried to encourage leaders when I was at NASA to go beyond the golden rule. So the golden rule says to treat others the way you want to be treated. Well, if you think about your own work-life fit and the stage of life you're in, if you're treating everyone like that, you're probably missing their preferences. So go to that platinum rule of treating others the way they want to be treated instead.

That is powerful. Yeah. One of my mentors, she also doesn't like work-life balance. She talks about work-life integration.

Integration. Yeah.

Yeah. That is quite powerful. So for the— we have a lot of aspiring leaders who listen to this podcast. What advice would you give someone who wants to lead but doesn't yet have a big leadership title?

Yeah. So first, I mean, we both know John Maxwell defines leadership as influence.

Yes.

So you can demonstrate leadership and influence without a management position or a leadership title. I really, I read recently the book Humble Influence by Jim Matuga. And he talks about the power of being a good follower.

Yes.

And for me, it was, it was about living out my values. We talked about that earlier, you know, doing this doing my best work, keeping my word, getting better over time. And then those traits were recognized by my leaders over time, uh, as well. And having good conversations with, again, mentors, um, your supervisors, uh, people who can be sponsors in the organization, people whose voice can be heard and who can influence your career, uh, making sure you've got good relationships and are really listening to them and their advice. Those are, those are things I would do as an individual contributor.

Now, you mentioned sponsors. Sometimes I think some people get it twisted. What's the difference between a mentor and a sponsor?

So a sponsor, and I feel like that's a leader's responsibility, is to sponsor a range of people on their team. That's advocating for people in the room. Where decisions are being made or opportunities are being given. It's, it's being an advocate for an employee in that room. So the employee may not be part of that conversation or part of the room. Mentoring is direct conversations with, with an individual. And I'll just take a sidebar here on mentoring for a moment. We at NASA, one, one year our engagement survey pointed to we needed better mentoring program. So we brought together a team of employees to come up with new ideas, and they came up with an idea around Your Opportunity to Develop Another, or YODA. It's a brand for the mentoring program. We worked with Lucasfilm, got a special Yoda pin. I got to dress up as Darth Vader at the kickoff and ending. We ran a couple of cycles of that, and then we realized that the research around mentoring pointed to the importance of reverse mentoring. So a more junior person mentoring a more senior person, and two-way mentoring really is, is key. What you need to have a mentoring relationship where both are learning from one another.

Yes.

So we had to ditch the Yoda branding. The Yoda branding was getting in the way of that.

Wow.

To JSC formal mentoring program, not nearly as fun or as Yoda, but more effective in the long run.

Wow, that is, uh, quite fascinating. So NASA maintained its ranking as the best place to work in the federal government for 11 consecutive years. What did NASA understand about people that most other organizations often miss?

Yeah, that's a great question, and actually, um, I share a little bit more of the backstory here in the book, but um, it wasn't always this way. So from the early 2000s, NASA, we ranged from 3rd to 5th on the survey, and NASA really didn't pay attention to those survey results. We, um, frankly, as an organization, we're pretty arrogant, you know. We thought we were the best, and we didn't really care what the surveys and And, and basically we weren't listening to the people. So we had a new, uh, leader who came in who said, hey, it's unacceptable for NASA to be third to fifth. I want to be the best place to work in government. And we had a new HR, HR leader who came from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission who had just been named best place to work in government, part of the reason they hired her at NASA. And she came in and And basically had a very simple framework and approach. And that's part of what I outline in the, the Building Culture the NASA Way book is, you know, it, it, it's about looking at those engagement survey results, picking out 2 to 3 critical improvements, and then pulling together employee teams to really focus on those, work on those, communicate the results. And then you're starting the cycle again with the next annual survey. So what happened over time is we made the leap because we worked on 3 critical things that really influenced our results. We worked on, you know, better support for work-life, work-life fit. We worked on kind of developing our frontline leaders and then really listening to employees' input about how to— the organization.

Wow.

So we made that, made that leap, and then we kept doing that cycle. And what, what happened was we went from probably a 60% response rate to the year I left NASA, we were at about a 92% response rate to the federal survey, which has like 100-something questions. It's a ridiculously long survey. Yes. Um, but yeah, so it wasn't always that way at NASA. I think people just assume, hey, you're NASA, of course you're the best place to work in government. But it took intentional efforts. And wow. And that framework, that approach is one that I argue can be done in any organization and any team. There's things you can learn from that.

Actually, this is a great point to talk about your bestselling book, Building Culture the NASA Way. So can you tell me why this book had to be written?

Yeah, so over the years I've spoken at international HR conferences and different, different places about the approaches we've taken at NASA. So I've— and each time I speak at these conferences, I'm approached by people afterwards about— they're surprised at kind of the practical takeaways and the practical framework that we used. And, um, I really decided just, hey, let's, let's get it out there a little bit more broadly in the, yes, in the book form. Um, because the other, the other thing that has happened in the last 3 years at Space Center Houston— we're a small nonprofit. So NASA has 18,000 employees, Space Center Houston has 200 full-time and another 250 part-time and seasonal, and we're kind of in the museum industry, science learning center industry. So very different workforce than NASA with scientists and engineers. And so, but what I've seen is the approach and the framework that we use to build culture at NASA is translating in this environment after 3 years as well.

That is pretty amazing. And talking about scientists and engineers, you argue in the book that culture is an engineering challenge. That's quite a fascinating perspective. Can you explain what you mean by that?

Yeah. So, and I don't want to take complete credit for that. So when I, when I wrote the manuscript, I sent it out to about 50 people to review and several engineers and scientists and a couple came back and said, hey, you ought to consider phrasing it this way.

Wow.

And I completely resonated with that because I would say over the course of my career, one, as an HR professional, I was really trying to speak the language of the business. So try to speak to engineers and scientists and using data, using their language. And so when they came back and mentioned that, I thought it really is an engineering challenge because you use a framework, you can use a formula to really drive your culture forward. So I like how they phrase that and I stole it.

That's— that is really, really fascinating. As you may be aware, Almost every company I've worked for, they like to say, no, our people are our greatest asset. It is a bunch of lip praising about that, but in reality, that's not really how the employees feel, right? Most, many times, at least here in Silicon Valley, most employees I've known, they don't really feel that way. In the military, it's a little bit different. I always felt like I was a lot more valuable throughout my Navy career. Career. But I guess the question I have for you is, how can leaders move beyond just slogan and actually build a true people-first culture?

Yeah, and Coach, I think, I think unfortunately, some companies say our people are our greatest asset. But they actually, how they're living is they exchange that T on asset with an S. People are our greatest asses sometimes. And I would say to really be people-driven culture, people-first culture, you know, first thing, you've got to listen to them. You got to listen to their ideas, you got to listen to their concerns. You have to take care of them through pay, benefits. Yes, other perquisites, perks as well. One of the things we did at Space Center Houston is, is listen to, um, you know, what was missing, uh, from an HR perspective, from a benefits perspective. We got a lot of good ideas from people when we, when we really listened to them, um, but engage them too. We, we really pushed a culture of inclusion and innovation at NASA, so Making sure everyone's voices are heard, come up with creative ideas and solutions that lead to more innovative results. And I think that's, that's part of the way you do that. One of the other things we've done from a benefits perspective is we'll have a third party review our benefits at Space Center Houston and tell us, hey, where do we stand? And this last year, through some changes we've made the last couple of years, they said we are a top benefits provider within comparable organizations. And so that's a way to go beyond the slogan to really kind of prove out that you're taking care of your people, which I know is a huge tenet of the military as well.

That is so, so powerful. Yeah, we, we are taught, right, mission first, because we do have to accomplish the mission, but people, people always. And in your book, you also compare culture building to like a NASA mission, which is pretty fascinating. Can you walk us through some of the major phases of building a culture that way?

Yeah, absolutely. And got a good idea from someone as I was preparing the book to kind of go beyond just typical chapter numbers and then talk about phases of a space shuttle flight. So most of my career was during the space shuttle program. And so space shuttle flight starts with a flight readiness review. So the equivalent to that in, in a culture framework is you really need to understand your culture. You need to navigate the culture, understand kind of where it came from, understand significant events that have impacted your organization and how that has been shaped. Then you move to kind of the launch phase of shuttle. And from a culture perspective, that's about assessing and adapting. So measuring the culture through surveys, through focus groups, feedback from employees, and then this notion of, you know, really adapting. So picking the, picking the critical few things and really focusing on those. You know, then the shuttle gets to on-orbit, and from a culture perspective, that's about strengthening leadership and systems. Um, leadership drives two-thirds of engagement survey results, so you need to really invest heavily in frontline leaders and making sure that they're driving your culture the way, the way you desire. And then the— then you're looking at reentry, you know, that's a critical phase of the shuttle flight as well when it's coming back through the Earth's atmosphere. And that's where we talk about activating a culture of inclusion and innovation that I just mentioned. And finally, you have landing. And the shuttle program didn't end with landing until the very last flight. Once the shuttle landed, it was time to refurbish it and get it ready for the next flight.

Wow.

So that's sort of culture. You, you don't— culture never, never stops. You never stop building culture. You, uh, even though you've made progress and you're, you're kind of where you want to be today, you've gotta keep at it. Um, and maybe again, back to my core value of improvement. But, uh, improving.

That is quite amazing. You guys definitely had, no, the best culture in government. That is, uh, quite, uh, an accomplishment. But I, I kind of have this, this coin which I like, no. One side it says success, and we always talk about successes, and we love success in America. But the truth is, on the other side is failure. And I feel like, no, success and failure, two sides of the same coin. So talking about NYSA, I know you experienced incredible successes, like sending the first one to send a man to the moon. One— what was it? One small step for the astronaut and then a huge step for mankind. Right. But you've had some devastating tragedies as well. And even when we talked earlier, you talked about 2004. We had like events like the Challenger and then Columbia. How did those events influence NASA's culture?

Yeah, so both of those events were very significant for NASA. So the Challenger, the accident happened in 1986. That was— my career started in 1995, so it was before my career started. But the investigation board came forth and said that there was a problem with NASA culture. There was too much groupthink. Going on. People were, uh, just agreeing or thinking similarly, and unfortunately the groupthink led to, uh, the accident, um, in 1986. 2003 with Columbia, uh, that was the one that, uh, had the accident on reentry, um, where the, the tile had been, had been hit by some foam debris from the, the tank, um, and and we lost the, the shuttle and our crew there. Part of what the accident board pointed to from a cultural perspective was there was information within the organization that could have prevented the accident or, uh, could have at least made NASA aware. There's a lot of debate around if, if we knew, um, there was a hole in the leading edge, what, what could we have done? What were the options have been? Um, but there was information in the organization, uh, that did not reach the decision makers. And so there was a lot of push post-Columbia to really get alternative opinions out on the table in front of decision makers because, um, and, and they call them, uh, dissenting opinions at one point in time that, that, you know, once a decision maker was headed toward a decision, other opinions were kind of shut down. And that, uh, there was a lot of work after that to really encourage different opinions and different voices to be heard.

Wow. Which makes me think, what role does psychological safety play in mission-critical organizations? How do we make sure people can feel safe reporting mistakes, risks, and concerns, especially again in medical spaces? Organization like NASA?

Yeah, I think it's huge. People have to, people have to feel safe. They have to, they need options on where to take their concerns as well. So one of the things that was created after the Columbia accident, we created an ombuds program where any safety concern or any organizational concern could be brought to an independent party. So you also had other ways to resolve issues. You had, um, you know, HR, you had safety, you had engineering, you had your, your supervisor, your leadership, which is— NASA would always encourage people to start there, start with your supervisor. If things could not be resolved, you had multiple other avenues and, and ways of addressing concerns. And, um, what, what I've done at Space Center Houston, kind of following that model is I've got a QR code where it's an Ask HR Anything anonymously. So people can raise concerns and issues anonymously if they're not comfortable coming to us directly. We also started an ombuds program as well, where there's a third party. If for whatever reason you're uncomfortable going to HR or going to your leadership, you've got another, another party, another avenue. So it's a way where we're trying to create psychological safety for people to raise their concerns and raise their issues.

Wow, that is fascinating. So, one thing I'm hearing throughout is really for leadership to listen to your people, but to really truly listen, right? Not just pretend to, but actually listen to what they say and then potentially make some changes to impact their performance. So, as a former NASA executive and current CHIO. How do you measure culture? What type of metrics actually matters?

Yes, I'm a big fan, you know, NASA of course was part of the Federal Employee Engagement Survey and I'm a big fan of an engagement survey. So we started that at Space Center Houston. We started a much smaller version, so they've got the 100+ questions, we have about a 30-question survey. That helps us get a high-level notion of indicators of where we need to focus improvements. But then we go a little bit deeper with focus groups. We also have upward feedback for leaders. So at the midpoint of our performance year, employees are able to give feedback to their leaders on, you know, how are they demonstrating the values of the organization? And then it's a simple, what should they keep, stop, or start doing? And then what do you appreciate most about this leader? So really trying to get developmental feedback up as well. And we're trying to continually emphasize the values of the organization and, and get that input and feedback from employees as well.

That's really powerful. And again, we are talking about building culture the NASA way. And Based on your book, final question I'm going to have about this segment is, what would you recommend? What is one culture-building practice that maybe startup here in Silicon Valley or small deployable military unit can use to begin implementing to improve the culture of their organization?

Yeah, I think it's really important to, to build culture, to, to ensure you've got, um, you're building relationships. So informal gatherings where you can get to know one another. Um, it's one of the things that NASA found in the, in the pandemic when we were all interacting like this, uh, remotely. Uh, one of the big concerns that was raised was, uh, in a lot of cases Engineers gather in the hallway or around another person's desk, and if they've got something that's bothering them, they'll just have an informal conversation before raising it formally to leadership. And we were losing that in the pandemic. There wasn't an opportunity for those informal gatherings.

Yes.

Where folks could say, hey, something, something in my gut doesn't feel right here, let me bounce it off of you. Um, you know, in the, in the Zoom and in the Teams environment, everything became more formal. You're in a formal meeting, you're not interacting informally. So that, that was something that we had to really pay attention to and, you know, try to create environments as best we could in the, in the remote times. But that's one reason NASA really push to get its workforce back on site together, um, because of the concern for safety and particularly human spaceflight safety.

Yes.

Um, but, uh, yeah, I think that's, that's one thing I would really look for is, is how can I build the camaraderie on my team, um, beyond kind of the meetings we need to have and things. How are we building relationships and connection? One of the things I did when I did that stint in the engineering organization is we, we went through, uh, the book, uh, The Five Languages of Appreciation in the Workplace, and that was a very helpful tool for peers to know how other peers like to receive appreciation and really helped advance things. And we've used that here at Space Center Houston as well. It's a good a good tool?

Well, now I think that so during the pandemic everybody was forced to work from home, so we all went digital and remote. And then now in Silicon Valley there are some companies who are still 100% remote, they will never go back to a building, and they seem to be saving a lot of money and looks like they are a lot more productive. But then there are others who have asked all of their people to come back to the office and then others kind of do the hybrid thing, like 2 days a week in the office and 3 days off, or vice versa. What do you recommend as an HR executive? Is there even a way to really build on that camaraderie like you're talking about, where you can just go to the water faucet and really have some conversation that could be life-changing? What do you think?

Yeah, so I would say there's a couple of Couple of things I would say to that. One, at Space Center Houston, our salaried staff can work remote one day per week. Hmm. And then that varies what day they choose. And part of the reason we're still 80% in the office is most of our staff is guest-facing and doesn't have that option.

Mm-hmm.

And so we're kind of supporting the operation here on-site at Space Center Houston. One of the things that I found when I had the, the agency-level job at NASA, my team was, was all remote. So my role was all interacting like this because I'm interacting with the 10 field locations. So the field locations in a lot of cases were in person, but my interactions were this way. Or if we wanted to get together people from different locations, So, we started intentionally creating some informal meeting opportunities where folks could just gather together in a Teams room and, you know, just connect and talk, not necessarily with a business focus but tried to simulate as much as we could kind of that water cooler opportunity. That you miss out on when you're in a remote environment. And yes, some of our folks that went remote too were really struggling with feeling isolated or disconnected. And so trying to create those opportunities where there's better connection.

That is quite powerful. This is a great segue. Let's talk about your second book, Out of This World Leadership. Living the Fruit of the Spirit to Lead Well. Why did you write this book? This is quite a little bit different than your first, your first one. Definitely use a different approach. Why did this book come to be?

Yeah, so, so first, this book is basically 10 leadership tips that I gave to leaders at NASA over a 10-year period. So as an HR leader, I would get in front of leaders and I would give them 10 tips. Um, I was invited to, uh, to speak at a conference, a nonprofit leadership conference led by the Christian Leadership Alliance. And when I was invited to speak there, I took those 10 tips and said, hey, these 10 tips really align with the fruit of the Spirit from Galatians 5. And so I gave a talk on that that was very well received. And Out of This World Leadership is, is kind of a personal brand. That's actually My blog site is outofthisworldleadership.com. A lot easier to get to it just using my name. It'll, it'll direct you there. But, um, it blends Christian leadership with kind of NASA leadership. So my, my two books are kind of the two different audience lanes. So I've got a lane here on this, this book that is focused toward Christian leadership, and then the building the NASA approach.

Wow, that is really, uh, powerful. Maybe at the high level, can we go through those 10?

Oh, sure, sure. So yeah, so first tip is, is to lead yourself. The second is everyone contributes. Mission success takes a team. The third is ask questions, don't give answers. The fourth is do what you love, love what you do. The fifth is to enjoy the journey. That's where I usually get folks to get a mentor. The fourth— or the sixth, I'm sorry— is to resolve conflict directly. Um, and the— I'm sorry, BZ, I don't have them right in front of me. The, um, 7th— let me grab it real quick.

It's good.

The, the 7th is, is really about, um, showing discipline. So this is where, uh, I talk about NASA and a lot of organizations will take as much as you're willing to give. So you've got to show discipline and have that self-control. Um, the 8th is to help others win. Um, it's a very similar idea to what Ken Blanchard writes about in his book Helping Others Win at Work. Blanchard was a college professor who, um, would hand out the final exam the first day of class and teach it because he said, my, my objective was to help, help people earn an A in the class. He goes, I wasn't trying to trick them, I wanted them to learn the material. And so helping others win, I think, is huge. The, the 9th is inspire others your way. And so I talked there about, and your, your intro, that podcast, what I was talking about is I had leadership development advisors who told me I needed to speak up more and I needed to get my voice out there more. And this tip is around Stay authentic to yourself. That's the, the clip at the front talked about, you know, I've seen introverted leaders be very effective and I've seen extroverted leaders and they were driving to kind of an extrovert ideal. And then the last tip is to prepare for the future, you know, have, have a plan but stay open to the possibilities. The tips themselves, the 10 tips, make up the acronym leadership. Uh, so kind of, kind of see that in the, in the contents of the book.

Wow, this is, this is really, really cool. And of course, the, uh, Bible that you mentioned, Galatians 5:22-23, we have 9 fruits of the Spirit, which is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance, which is really amazing. I, I really find it quite fascinating that a lot of the, um, because I I think I was about 17 years old when I really became serious about learning about leadership and success. But a lot of the self-help books and leadership management books I read, I could see that a lot of those principles came straight out of the Bible, both the Old Testament and the New Testament. It's just amazing how it is. Like even here for my podcast since last year, I have two books for the curriculum. One is the 21 Laws of Leadership, which you know, but I also have the Maxwell Leadership Principles. Bible as, uh, well, no, not as a religious text, but simply as a leadership, uh, manual. What— why do you think there is so much practical wisdom in an ancient book like, uh, the Bible?

Well, uh, I would say the largest reason is it's, it's not just any book. It's, it's the inspired word of God. So God speaking to us through, through the Bible, um, that makes it unlike any other book. Uh, you know, my, my book is a collection of, um, my learnings and my sayings. The, the Bible is, is the inspired word of God. The, the remarkable thing— I'm sure you found this, BZ— over the course of your— of the course of my life, I've seen I could read the same passage and it speaks to me differently. Yes, based on where I am, and I get a different insight. And that's, that's, um, you know, very, very unique about the, about the Bible, about the word of God.

That's, that is really, uh, amazing. Again, the book we're talking about now is Out of This World Leadership: Living the Fruit of the Spirit to Lead Well. Another thing that is, uh, very remarkable is In the book, you really set it up so that leadership really begins with character rather than competency, which is what most people, I think, would, would guess. Why, why do you believe that?

Well, I think, I think character and leadership starts with who you are, um, and you, you're really— you, you really can't get beyond that if you have flaws in your character, you're not living up to your values, followers are not going to follow you. You're going to lose them somewhere along the way. I believe you've got to start with your character. One of the things I talk about in the book is a— I like to bring different approaches I learn from, from HR, from business and apply them to my personal life. So I have a balanced work-hard approach. So, you know, how am I doing spiritually? How am I doing, you know, physically? How am I doing at work or in my roles as a, as a husband, as a father? How am I doing with, with respect to how I, how I support my church? How do those things come together and in kind of a balanced work-hard approach? And Because my strengths, if I look at StrengthsFinder, are largely around Achiever and Learner, I usually set goals around what am I going to achieve in these areas and what I'm going to learn in these areas. Again, because that's, that's partly how I'm, how I'm wired.

Well, that is really something. Now, another thing about your, your book, in the world, people when they think of becoming a leader, they think about having great influence, authority, and power and all of that. But you really talk about humility and servant leadership. I guess, how would you define servant leadership? And also, how can leaders kind of maintain their integrity when they face intense pressure to deliver results? How do we make it practical?

Yeah, I think, so one, I think leadership is really about, from my perspective, it's about serving and supporting others. So you're looking at how can you advance them. I always thought as a leader and when I had leadership roles, I was always preparing people to lead. And what I found is each time I left an organization, The leaders who came after me, you know, took it to the next level. So in a lot of cases, I probably wasn't getting out of the way fast enough for their growth and development. But really, it's about, you know, being focused on the team. And then, and then I've been part of organizations that, that have a strong mission. So keeping the mission in mind and focusing on that. So servant leadership is about both serving your team, but also a larger mission and a larger purpose.

That is so, so powerful. Okay, we have about 10 minutes left or so. Let's get into the last segment. Actually, before I do the last segment, is there a question I should have asked you, Brady, I didn't get a chance to ask? Anything else you wanted to talk about today?

So we hit a little bit on humility, and I would just say It's fascinating to me, like, if you go look at Jim Collins' Good to Great book. Yeah, he talks about Level 5 leaders. And if you look at his description of Level 5 leaders, you can parallel that to the love chapter in 1 Corinthians 13. So he talks about, you know, great leaders are not— or, you know, they don't boast. Uh, they're, uh, they show humility.

Yeah.

And so it's interesting, the parallels. And that's where we can learn a lot of leadership in reading 1 Corinthians 13.

That is so true, because, uh, as I was growing up, as you know, our mentor Dr. Maxwell always defines leadership as influence. And I agree, I think that is right. But lately I've been thinking like leadership is really love, because, uh, you love the people who work for you, you want to do the very best for them, but also your organization and its mission. It looks like everything you do is really out of that love. It's quite powerful. So for the last segment, I want to start with what do you believe is one of the greatest lessons you have ever learned, whether in life, in leadership, or in general?

Greatest lessons in life or leadership. I think really the importance of generational influence. So again, if I think about my grandparents, who actually I profile both of them in the book, my parents, and then I think about successive generations. So my kids and their kids and beyond. For me, the, It's about living a life and leading in a way that has a positive influence over successive generations. I saw that modeled well by my grandparents, and that's definitely a lesson I want to continue to live out.

That is really, really powerful. I think that is legacy. And what do you think is the secret of your success? Starting at the very bottom and ending up as a senior executive for NASA. What made you so successful, do you think?

Um, you know, again, I go back to those, those core values, uh, how I was shaped. And then I also had people in the organization that were great mentors and sponsors of my career. We talked earlier about the importance of sponsorship, and I certainly experienced that in the course of my career.

That's, that's really powerful. When you have mentors and sponsors, do you feel the obligation to pay it forward?

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I, I feel like when you're in a leadership position or a position of authority, you're in a position of privilege, and so you've got to use that privilege honorably to really support others in the organization. And make sure that, um, yeah, you're, you're paying that forward.

Um, man, that's powerful.

Huge responsibility of leadership.

Yes, the burden of leadership. So what are you learning now? I know that leaders are learners. What are you learning these days?

Well, one of the things I'm, I'm trying to learn is, um, uh, how, how my team, my direct reports, uh, can work more effectively together. I work very effectively with each of them, but they're struggling a little bit. They're being a little bit more competitive than collaborative. And so, um, I'm— I've actually got some, uh, colleague I used to work with at NASA who's, who's helping us with the team, team dynamic. And so, um, a lot, a lot of folks may look at me, look at my career and say, hey, he's, he's the expert, he's got it all together. No, I've, I've got a team right now that's not modeling collaboration and trust very well. So, wow, learning, learning that right now.

Okay. And, uh, if, uh, you could choose 3 people to have dinner with— no, there could be alive, dead, or even, uh, fictitious characters— who would you choose? Why?

Yeah, I, I, I would go to, uh, 3 people who are not here. So yeah, I'd want to invite my grandfather, um, who passed away nearly 10 years ago now. My father-in-law was a great man of wisdom as well. He passed away in 2020 from COVID And then, you know, just since you're able to pick anyone, I, uh, like to pick either grandkid or great-grandkid that I will never meet.

Wow.

You know, again, thinking about this generational idea of have been passed down, um, great influence, great lessons. And yeah, how did, how did, how did they turn out a few generations down the road?

That is powerful. Yeah, I've had people talk about their grandparents or ancestor, but never about a future, uh, member of the family. Wow, that is, that is powerful. Thank you for—

Yeah, BZ, I talked, I actually put a post out there a while back after attending a funeral of a close friend. And he was 84 years old. I'm 54. So it really struck me during that funeral and afterwards of, hey, how am I stewarding the next 30 years? Because he had finished. Very, very strong, you know. And I'm thinking, okay, how do I steward the next 30 years? And really put the idea out there: are you building your resume or are you building your eulogy?

Wow.

You know, what, what's, what's most important there? And so kind of along those same lines of, you know, what, what actions am I taking today? How am I living?

Yes.

To build that eulogy.

Wow, that is powerful, powerful. And you've already mentioned quite a few books, I think half a dozen books since we started. One book you mentioned is Humble Influence: The Strength of True Fellowship by Jim Matuga. Why should my audience read this book?

This is a great book because he talks about— he started to write a book about leadership, and as he dug into it more, he said, you know, there's a lot of books on leadership Followership is, is just as important. And he talks about how to be an effective follower. And he said most of us at some level, no matter where, where we are in an organization, yes, need to be a follower. I mean, even if you're the CEO, you've got the board that you're reporting to. Someone you're reporting to someone along the way. And so, um, that's what, what he shared, BZ. I really mirrored my experience at NASA. And yes, what I felt like growing up through the organization, I felt like he captured those ideas really well.

Wow, that is powerful. And you also mentioned Good to Great, one of my most favorite books by Jim Collins. Why should the audience read this one?

Well, this is, this is a classic about leaders. He has one that follows this as well about How the Mighty Fall. So he characterizes companies here that went from good to great.

Yeah.

Um, and then he talks about how the mighty fall. And, and a key lesson from that book was, uh, kind of this, this hubris. You know, when you, when you become great as an organization, you can, you can rest on your laurels and—

yes.

Um, and, and not continue to improve. And so That, that's a danger of both individually and organizationally. I know NASA dealt with that, uh, 20 years ago. It was a not invented here culture and a lot of organizational arrogance that, that frankly contributed to some of what we saw in the Space Shuttle Columbia accident. So we had to learn to, to really become more of a learning organization and reach out that way. Good to Great is a classic. I'd encourage folks to check that out if they haven't. And then How the Mighty Fall, he captures the lessons well from the companies that went from great to falling.

Yeah, How the Mighty Fall and Why Some Companies Never Give In. That one is not— I have a digital bookshelf where I put all of the books recommended by great people like you. As we started May of last year, we had about 3 books when we started. Now we have more than 500 books. Good to Great is already there. It's also on the, what I call the most recommended book, much, much, much smaller list with just the books that people recommend. But this is really, really great.

Wow.

I didn't even know that. So I'm going to make sure that the people who are watching and listening now also get a copy of How the Mighty Fall by Jim Collins. Now, another book that you mentioned was Helping People Win at Work by Ken Blanchard and Gary Ridge.

Yes.

Why, why should we read this one?

Well, this, this is a good philosophy book. And by the way, a lot of these books are I have over 300 book summaries on my blog site.

Wow.

So if folks wanted, wanted the quick summary, they could just search on my blog site and find, find these. But helping people win at work, it's, it's a leadership philosophy about making sure expectations are clear. And then, yeah, helping, helping people win. Just, it's a philosophy.

And then Gary Chapman, I believe, is one also wrote The Five Love Languages. Talks about the 5 languages of appreciation in the workplace.

Yeah, this is, this is a great one to get because if you get the book, you get a code to actually do their assessment. What is your language of appreciation? And if you've got a team of people that you're working with, each person on the team getting, getting a book is a good idea to, to really understand what is their language because For me, it's words of affirmation. And so I will default to that for others if I don't know and really understand, you know, some of, some of my team members, it's quality time. So going to lunch with them is more important than writing them a thank you note, for example. So understanding that and understanding how folks feel appreciated is important.

And then finally, the last book by Dr. John Maxwell, Leadership Gold. Why should we read this one?

Oh, this is a, this is a classic. He's got a lot of lessons. He actually waited, uh, till he had enough of a leadership career to put this book out there. And, um, yeah, just got a lot of rich lessons.

One of my best ones. Then you also mentioned Good Leaders Ask Great Questions.

Yeah, and this one, uh, for us at NASA, you know, a lot of leaders are promoted based on their technical expertise. And if they continue to, to tell people what the answers are, the lid to the organization is, is their own technical excellence. If they can pull ideas from people and ask questions, they can raise the lid of organizational—

I could talk to you for hours and hours and hours, but we do need to bring this, this plan down. I have so many questions for you. Okay, as, as end, let me ask you this. If you had one and only one day to live, what would you have liked your final contribution to be?

I think it would be speaking wisdom into the life of my kids. And if I have any by then, grandkids. Yes, yes. Well, but yeah, influencing family.

Definitely doing that with your bestselling books. It's really a lot of of wisdom, and I think that could change, I think, families' legacy, but businesses too. And if you had a magic wand and you could solve any problem in the world, what is the one problem you'd like to solve first thing tomorrow?

Well, for me, of course, it would be solving some of our technical challenges and medical challenges of getting to Mars. We have a lot of things to figure out to put humans in space to Mars with things like radiation, effects on bones, effects on eyes. There's a lot of medical challenges. And it would be exciting to see that in my lifetime, to see a human make it to Mars. Of course, that's, you know, growing up in the space program and lived in the space program, and that would be the ultimate.

Yes. Now, talking about that, in addition to NASA, now we also have a lot of individual billionaires who are doing their own private venture like SpaceX, Blue Origin, and so on. How do you feel about the— I don't know, I guess the emergence of private companies that are trying to do the work that NASA has been known for?

Yeah. So let me correct some of that is a little bit of a misnomer. Um, so when the Space Shuttle program ended, um, NASA said, hey, we need to stimulate a commercial space economy. So they, they put out contracts for space companies to, to compete, and they contracted differently than they had before. Instead of giving detailed requirements, they gave kind of outcomes and then let the space companies innovate to get to those outcomes. Uh, SpaceX, to this point, most of the, um, most of what they have done in space has been funded by the US government, either NASA or Space Force. Um, Elon's using a little bit of his money now to develop kind of the deeper space rocket. Um, but, but most of the investment in SpaceX to this point has been US government funded. Um, I, I would say it was a game changer. I mean, when, when Elon and SpaceX team, uh, got reusable rockets, demonstrated that, you know, proved that out, it changed the cost of spaceflight significantly.

That's amazing.

And, uh, was a game changer. We actually have, uh, one of the first, uh, Falcon 9 rockets that, uh, they reused that flew, I think several times here at Space Center Houston. So we have it on display here.

That is really, really amazing. I called— I haven't met him yet, but I know he's here in Silicon Valley somewhere. I call him my African-American brother from another mother. He's originally from South Africa. I am from the Congo. But pretty, pretty amazing. Okay, we are getting to the end of the show. Last question I'm going to ask before I ask how we can add value back to you. If you could go back and give a piece of advice to your 17-year-old self. Standing at the edge of this incredible career you've had at NASA, what would you say to 17-year-old Brady?

Well, first I would say you, you never— you'll never believe where you're going to go, where you're going to end up. Yes. Because I, as a 17-year-old, I don't think NASA was even in my thought process. I was not a lifelong, you know, space, uh, nerd, if you will. Um, but yeah, I, I think I would, uh, I think I would advise, kind of would have advised the listeners, is, uh, understand your values, where they came from, and, and live your values out. Um, that's amazing. Yeah. And you, I think if I was talking to my 17-year-old, I I don't, I don't think the 17-year-old would, would believe where I've been and where I've come from a career perspective. It's been very much a blessing.

That's really amazing. Okay, as we come to the end, how can we add value back to you?

Well, I, I would say, yeah, connect with me here on LinkedIn, um, if, if you want further conversation. I'm glad to have conversations. I I get to those messages on LinkedIn at least about every 6 weeks. So yeah, definitely do that. Yeah, check out the books if you're interested. There's information there, as Bisi is showing on the, on the site. So I had the privilege of becoming an executive at NASA through Dr. Ellen Ochoa. She was the first Hispanic woman to fly in space. She has her own Barbie doll out there, so, uh, and she wrote the foreword to the book as well.

It's amazing. Well, uh, that's it. Uh, all good things come to an end. Um, before we end, I like to end on a positive note. So what is something optimistic you are, uh, feeling? Something you're feeling optimistic about this, this day?

Oh, feeling very, uh, very optimistic about our future. I mean, when I look at just my kids and their friends, the next generation is poised to do great things. And I'm very encouraged personally when I see my kids and their friends trying to grow in their relationship with Jesus Christ. That's amazing.

All right, and the very last question for the show is, what is one word that present our shared experience on this podcast today.

So outstanding. Yeah, I love being here with you.

Thank you so much, Coach Brady. I really appreciate you being on the show and sharing your wisdom with us. Thank you for being one of our master teachers today. Really appreciate that.

All right, thank you.

All right, everybody, this is one for the book. Please, uh, follow him. It's, um, bradypal.com, and also on LinkedIn. LinkedIn.com/in/bradyapyle. And again, make sure to get a copy of the books, Building Culture the NASA Way, and also Out of This World Leadership.

Wow.

All right. So this is it for today. I should have another guest tomorrow. And I think on Saturday, I'm gonna have to go back to the books of Proverbs. That's where we are studying ancient wisdom from a book that's more than 2,000 years old, but that's still applicable today. Again, not a religious podcast, simply the leadership lesson from the book of Proverbs. And next week, I'm gonna be speaking to the one and only Jean-Marie DiGiovanna, and she's going to be here. She's the bestselling author of Stop Talking and Start Asking. We're gonna be talking about the leadership skill That Changes Everything. So that's going to be next week. Thanks again for watching the show today. And as you guys know, we celebrate Black History Year here. So two quick things. I believe today is June 3rd, right? So a couple of things happen on June 3rd for Black history, which is American history. Number one, I think, let me see, I may have a picture. Yeah, right here. 1,500 white people lynched a Black man on an Illinois called Al's Lawn. That was on June 3rd, 1893. So I have written a post about this, the lynching of Sam J. Bush. You can read about that. But also on the same date, June 3rd, this one 1949, the U.S. Navy had its very first, uh, ensign. Uh, he was, uh, the very first one, uh, Wesley Brown, who retired as a commander in the U.S. Navy. He was the very first African American graduate of the US Naval Academy. Actually, I'm gonna play a quick short video of Commander, now retired, Wesley Brown about that historical achievement. Okay, that's all I have for you today. Thanks again for watching, and I'll see you tomorrow.

A number of people had been considered for the Naval Academy. None of them made it. Mitchell and later Dawson were actually going literally all over the country trying to find somebody who would be interested in going to the Naval Academy.

Why was it so difficult?

Why was it so difficult to find people?

Well, that was— you'd probably have to talk to people, they had millions of reasons, but certainly the Navy was not noted for its attitudes, positive attitudes toward Blacks. Most people don't realize this, but between 1922 and 1932, no black man could enlist in the Navy in any capacity, not even a mess attendant, for 10 years. Now we had them in there. If you were already in, you could re-enlist. We had people like Dick Turpin, who was a chief gunner's mate, and Shane, of course, came later, the movie Men of Glory, where he was a diver, master diver. Sherpa was a master diver, too. But this is back in 1925, when we had Navy people serving in integrated Navy bunks and jobs. But as I mentioned, Logan's book, Things That Were worse and worse. Now, the Navy had a very, very poor image. The Navy seemed more sophisticated, more gentlemanly. The white uniforms seemed much more gentlemanly than the olive drab that the Army guys wore, for whatever reason.

I had an Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.