S5:E129🎙️ LIVE with Master Chief Jody Fletcher, USN (Ret.)

Hi, I'm John Maxwell. When the top companies in the world are looking for trainers, speakers, and coaches, there's one name that stands above the rest, and that's Maxwell Leadership. Our certified team members have gotten proven results for companies all over the globe, and our reputation, I'm proud to say, is second to none. Some of our members have risen to the top of their profession, including the one you're going to meet today. I proudly introduce you to my friend, Bob Fabien Zinga.

Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ, where we help you lead with purpose and succeed with impact. If you're ready to grow into the kind of leader others want to follow, this podcast is for you. If you're determined to elevate your success and leave a lasting legacy, this podcast is for you. As my mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell, reminds us, everything rises and falls on leadership. Our goal is simple, to inspire you, challenge you, and equip you with insights that can transform the trajectory of your leadership journey. Welcome aboard to another episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast with Coach BZ.

One you're going to meet today.

Maybe.

So, so why do— why does, uh, the Marine Corps utilize the Navy primarily for their corpsmen?

Well, because they're actually a department of the Navy. And whenever they— Right.

But I mean, so they just, it's not like we would, uh, it's, it's not like Space Force, if you will, would dip into the Air Force for a, a, well, I guess they do dip in for a capability, but yeah, it's just interesting that they, that they always have, uh, used Navy corpsmen.

Huh? Well, and, and it's so funny because people are always, they'll see pictures or whatever and they're like, oh, you're a Marine. I was like, no, I wasn't. I'm in the Navy, I'm a sailor. So I always, I always joke and call myself a dirt sailor and all of us FMF, you know, sailors, because there are RPs, Religious Program Specialists, and there are a few people that do serve with the Marines. So I always just called us dirt sailors.

So, but I mean, how, how unique is it for a sailor to be, to then become the MARSOC, you know, Command Master Chief? I mean, you were the command senior enlisted for MARSOC as a Navy corpsman.

So, that's not unusual in the Marine Corps setting. Each general officer has a sergeant major and a command master chief when they get to that flag level. So, we— I had a battle buddy the whole time, and that's super awesome because you're not just there by yourself. And, you know, I worked for 8 different general officers, and they were all amazing. But it's very cool to have that. Senior enlisted battle buddy as well, that you can just kind of, you know, close the door and have a cup of coffee, so to speak.

Yeah, it's those officers, am I right?

Like, we feel that pain too. Sometimes you got to get away from those O's, Jody. We know exactly what that means. So, hey man, you go to college and I don't know what happens in college, but it's something, right?

All right, welcome back to the Leadership and Success Podcast. This is our second broadcast today. And do you have a trait? Do you have a trait? Okay, before we get started, as you know, we start with a moment of gratitude, something we do every single time we meet. And part of the reason is because in the military, it's about 21, 22 service members and veterans who commit suicide, not every year, not every month, but every single day. And, I believe it's impossible to be suicidal and be grateful at the very same time. So, you know exactly how we do it. You know the drill if you've been following the show for a while. If you would maybe close your eyes and put yourself in your happy place and take a deep breath, slow down your nervous system, and think about one thing that you are grateful for. And I think for me right now, one thing I am really grateful for is really the people who have come before us. I really do believe we do stand on the shoulders of giants. We haven't accomplished anything we have been able to accomplish so far on our own. We are not an island. And I am so grateful for so many great people who have come before me and who have achieved so much and made it possible for somebody like me to come to the United States of America and live beyond my wildest dreams, becoming a senior officer in the most powerful Navy in the world. So, so grateful for that. So let us know in the comments where are you watching us from, what city, what state, and if you are outside of the US, which country, and also what are you grateful for today? And if you do have a question for my guest, Master Chief Fletcher, please go ahead and type it in the comments and we will be answering live. So Without any further ado, let me see if I can properly introduce the Master Chief today. All right, we're gonna be speaking to Master Chief Petty Officer, already Command Master Chief, Jody Fletcher, US Navy retired. For nearly 30 years, Master Chief has served at the highest level of the US Navy and Marine Corps team, leading from the front in reconnaissance, Marine Raider, and special operation communities before retiring as a Command Master Chief. And I must tell you, being an E-9, it's less than 2% of the people who join the US Navy end up at that rank. Less than 2%. Think about that. So today, Jody, he wants me to call him Jody, not Master Chief. He's an executive coach, a director of talent and performance excellence, adjunct professor, and author of the upcoming books, and you can pre-order it today, Good Human Make Great Leaders, Inspiring Others, Leadership Begins With You. We're definitely gonna spend some time to talk about the book, and I want everyone to please consider purchasing, pre-ordering the book today. Uh, Jody's leadership philosophy is quite simple yet powerful. Master Chief says, to be a great leader, you must first be a good human. In a world focused on metrics, technology, performance, Jody reminds us that trust, culture, relationship, and psychological safety remain the true foundation of exceptional leadership. Part of what we're gonna be learning today is leadership lesson from recon, marine raiders, and special operation, but also key insight from good humans make great leaders. All right, without any further ado, please help me welcome to the Leadership Success Podcast, the one and only Master Chief Jody Fletcher.

Hey, thanks for having me, Guizzi. I'm, I'm very happy to be here.

Yes, we are so glad and privileged and honored for you to be here. I can't believe I have a MasterChef right there on my screen. Well, to get started, MasterChef, what is something you are grateful for today?

Honestly, Bizzy, today I'm grateful for my family. And I know that's, you know, that's the easy answer, but my daughter just graduated college recently, and so she's home with us for the summer, and then she's— she got into NYU for grad school, so we're very excited, but Yeah, we're very grateful to have her home and to be able to spend some time with her over the summer.

Wow, that is just so, so powerful. Our last child, our second daughter, she graduated from high school yesterday. So we are very, very proud. And now she's going to college this fall. It's just incredible how time goes by so quickly, isn't it? Like she was born yesterday. Yeah.

In a blink of an eye, you know, and they say— I remember people telling me, pay attention because it goes by fast. And here I am, you know, she's, she's 22. She turned 22 on Wednesday.

That's incredible because the line of work we are in, I know, I don't know how many recital birthdays and special days and holidays I have missed because I, I was deployed and I was working for a country. But, uh, yeah, I kind of regret that just a little bit, uh, because I wish I was a little bit more present at times. But, uh, yeah, it's, it's, uh, it is just, just incredible. So thank you for your service. I know people say that a lot, but it really means something. But not only you, Master Chief, but your entire family too, your spouse and your children, because I know they do have a price that they pay. You know, I had the great privilege of becoming commanding officer, but one thing I enjoy more than anything else was to write those thank you letters to the wife or the young children of my sailors. Nothing gave me more fulfillment than that. It's just incredible.

Wow.

Yeah, and it's interesting, and I stole this from somebody, but whenever people say thank you for your service, I respond with, you're worth it.

Hmm, I like that, I like that, I like that. And I don't know, I feel like, like, for example, I consider anyone who served in any branch of the military at any pay grade for any amount of time, I really truly consider them hero because it's less than what, 1-2% of Americans who are eligible join the military. And I think we are going above and beyond and really, you know, taking care of not just the Constitution but also going to war and all of that. But anyway, in my eyes, I am really in awe of what we do in the military for our country. But I know some sailors they feel like, no, do not thank me, I haven't done anything, or whatever. And I feel like that's not the right attitude to have for what we do for our country. So I've never heard of, uh, you are worth it, but that makes perfect sense to me.

Well, I think that extends to any service— the police, the fire department, you know, doctors and nurses, first responders. Yeah, anyone who serves the greater community, whether it's the country writ large or our individual communities. And, you know, when, when police and fire department folks thank me for my service, I'm like, are you kidding? Thank you for your service.

Yes, right.

Like, you all are in it every single day of your entire careers, and that's amazing as well.

So true. And I believe in the first responder statistic I saw, their suicide rate is pretty, pretty high too, kind of like, uh, in the military community. It really does something when your life is mostly in danger and you're always running on adrenaline. It really has a huge, huge cost on your, on your life, and people don't really realize that at times.

Well, especially with them, because they are witnessing the worst day of someone else's life repeatedly every single day, you know, and for the most part. Um, so yeah, I have great respect for, for anyone who serves other humans.

Absolutely. So is there something, Master Chief, about you that most people may not know when they first meet you? Anything unique, special?

That's a— that is an interesting question. Um, one thing that a few people know, I was named after a Vegas showgirl. That's kind of the fun fact. Yes, my parents were trying to figure out what to name me, and they were at a show in Vegas, one of the big, you know, productions, and they were looking at the the program, and one of the performers' names was Jody. And they said, that's it, a boy or a girl is going to be Jody. So I was, I was destined to be a Jody, uh, I guess.

Wow, that is really, really cool. Uh, I guess my, hmm, my first name, let's see, my father was Robert, so Bob made, made sense. He got called Bob when he went to Germany. Now, Fabien which is Fabien in French. Uh, I think my dad got it just out of the calendar, uh, because in, I guess, French, the culture is Catholic. Every day they have like a saint that they try to remember, and I guess I was just born on Saint Fabien's Day or something. So that, that doesn't really, really mean much, much to me. But my middle name, uh, I have a middle name, means a lot. Uh, it's in, in Lari and The meaning of it in English is faith or hope. So I always want to be reminded of that when I go through tough time, who I am, and some way, somehow, even if it looks completely hopeless right now, there is a way to get through it and get onto the other side. I think it's helped me with becoming more resilient. So I'm really, really thankful to my mother for giving me that name.

I love it.

So for those Meeting you for the first time again, who is Jody Fletcher beyond the rank, the titles, and the resume? Again, I'm going to try to call you by Jody and not MasterChef, but who, who are you just, uh, as a person?

Well, it's interesting question because in fact when I'm presenting or speaking, I often put up, you know, I'll put up all the pictures you showed, and the one thing I, I bring up is, is I'm the same guy. I'm the same dude in every one of those pictures. I'm just doing different things. So, you know, of course I've matured and evolved over the years, but I feel like I've been the same person. I'm a happily average surfer, uh, you know, I enjoy doing things and outside of work, a family man and all of that. But, uh, in the phase of life that I'm in right now, I like to say I'm trying to still contribute to, to make an impact on those around me. And more importantly, I'm trying to finish the second half of my life with a smile on my face.

So that is awesome. I love that. Now, being a Master Chief, again, E-9 in the military, that is really tough. Like I said, less than 2% of people who join end up there. For the junior enlisted who are listening to us, what would you say is the secret of your success? How did you make it all the way to the top like that?

Oh goodness. Uh, I would say don't take yourself too seriously. I did not join with aspirations to be a Command Master Chief. In fact, I would often sit in that office and think to myself, how did I get here? Uh, so I would say don't take yourself too seriously, but at the same time dedicate yourself to your craft and to your teammates. And if you do those, those three things, I feel like you'll end up where the universe needs you.

Mm, say that one more time, please. That is so profound.

Don't take yourself too seriously, dedicate yourself to your craft, take care of those around you, and you'll end up where the universe needs you.

That is so powerful. Yeah, because when I became a CEO, I reached out to all of my mentors. I'm like, okay, how do I become a good CEO? What is the secret? What do I do? And one of them said, no, just take care of your people. Take care of them, and they will take care of the mission. And, uh, one great opportunity I had is I, I really was trying to look at, uh, my tenure there as the commanding officer for the Lances of Simon Zinga. Right off of boot camp, I didn't know anything, and I would like— which kind of culture, what kind of environment would have made me thrive back then? What did I wish, uh, I, I had? And now, as a CEO, could I make it happen for the most junior enlisted in my command. That's really the person my entire department head and senior leadership team was working for. That person was our boss, and I think that made a big, big difference. Man, thank you so much for sharing that. So I guess the following question would be, when you look back on nearly 30 years of Navy service and going from E-1 to E-9 and all the things that you've been able to accomplishments, so many things. What are you most proud of?

I am most proud of the leaders that were left in my wake, meaning all the people that I had some level of impact on. And, you know, Chief Season just, just finished, uh, or the— not the season, but the, uh, the selection. You know, the results came out for, for the people that were selected, and or actually I think for 8 and 9. It's all mixed up now. I've been out 5 years. But anyway, I think it was last month or a few weeks ago, I was still receiving these, you know, texts and phone calls of people that, that had been selected. And these are people that were very, very junior when I was in. And wow, I was at a, at a, uh, like a local place, kind of like a Dave Buster's. It's, it's local here to our neighbor neighborhood, kind of. And a junior sailor— he was out at this point, but he had been a junior sailor when I was in— saw me and he grabbed me and, and, uh, we just had a conversation, you know. And he said, Jody. And I was like, you know, I looked and he said, I'm sorry, I mean Master Chief. And I was like, no dude, it's definitely Jody now. And, and we just had a great conversation. And both he and his wife had been in the Navy when I was in.

Wow.

And, you know, I remember them a little bit, but not a lot. I mean, there's literally thousands and thousands of people. And then when they started telling some stories, I was like, oh, I do remember this and that. And wow, it was just so fun to talk to him. And it happens quite a bit. And at the end, he's like, hey, thanks for talking to us. And I was like, bro, thanks for— thanks for grabbing me, man. It makes me feel so good to know that I had enough of an impact and that I was not a jerk, right? Like, wow, you, you've got that choice when you see somebody like that. Do I grab them and talk to them, or do I just keep walking by and pretend I don't know him? Because, you know, my hair is halfway down my back now, and all that. And A, that he recognized me, and then B, he felt compelled to, to engage with me. And I feel like it's those, those things, BZ, that let me know that it makes me proud that I had an impact on people enough to Yes. You know, wow.

Yeah, this is incredible. Anybody I talk to on this podcast, if they've been in the military even for one day, they might have a bunch of service. I really want to acknowledge that. That's why the big picture I use is them in uniform, any uniform, preferably in their service uniform, but any uniform will do. So in your case, Master Chief, I had to go back and use the most current picture because nobody would recognize you from when—

Nobody would recognize me.

No, man, that's incredible.

Man, the things I've often been compared now to, uh, the dude from The Big Lebowski. I've got a bucket hat that I'll wear.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Everybody's like, oh my gosh. Usually my voice gives me away, but I've literally had people that I've served with that if I've not seen them in a while, they're like, I didn't even recognize you.

Yes, yes, that is really, uh, something. So you have served in some of the most elite military organization in the world. What originally drew you to leadership?

It was when I came out of my last deployment, I became the Command Master Chief of MARSOC. And honestly, I'd planned to go to PA school because I was, you know, still very deeply rooted in medicine at that point, had just finished practicing or been on operational deployment. And so I was like, oh, I'll do this gig for a couple years and then get out. That would have put me at I don't know, 23 to 25 years, somewhere in there, 23 I think. And I was going to go to PA school. I did not anticipate loving that job as much as I did. So it was that job that then convinced me to go the, the actual Command Master Chief route, you know, where they change your rate and everything.

That's amazing.

Um, and actually, I, you know, and I share this openly a lot, I, I lost a lot of money on my next two tours as a Command Master Chief because when I left the the, uh, the soft community, I lost all my special pays except for my Command Master Chief pay. So I only bring that up to say that I truly loved what I was doing enough to stay in another 6 years.

That's amazing.

Wow. And so, yeah, it was— for me, it was the fact that my whole job was to go out and, and mingle with everybody and, you know, be a resource and, and, um, And I was learning from them, you know. I don't know, it was just— it was really fun. It, it changed the perspective on things, man.

I think it really takes very, very special people. We're talking a little bit in the green room to be special operation. That's not for everybody, man. We love to see that and in movies and all of that, but man, in reality, when you see someone who's dedicated to their craft that much and what you guys do going above and beyond. We've— I would add all of the Marines to that, and the SEALs and Rangers and so forth. It's just incredible. Wow.

Yeah, in the video you played in the beginning, shout out to those guys. Uh, that's another great podcast, probably for a lot of your listeners. It's, it's called One's Ready, and it's pararescuemen, combat controllers, and, um, I forget what the meteorology— but anyway, it's the Air Force. Yeah, there's 3, 3 guys, uh, that are the hosts, and they're all Air Force special operators. That's really crazy as well.

Yeah, man, these people are so crazy that would jump out of a perfectly good running airplane. I'm like, my goodness, it's, uh, incredible, incredible. Great, great date of gratitude for the few, the proud, the Marines. Uh, I definitely— I don't know, but Marines, to me, they are the most disciplined, uh, you know, service members I've ever seen in my entire life. No, I have— can you imagine? I've seen quite a few fat obese, you know, senior Navy commanders and officers, soldiers too, but I've never seen a single fat Marine, not an officer, not enlisted, never.

The Marines, it's, it's interesting you say that, Bizzy, because I often tell the young sailors that are becoming dirt sailors, FMF sailors, If you can PT and look good in uniform, you've already got half the battle won.

Wow.

So when you get here, make sure you can PT and you look good in uniform, and of course be good at your craft. But the Marine Corps is very disciplined. Uh, I would agree with you there. I would say a close second are the Rangers. I always enjoyed working with the Rangers. They are a very disciplined unit as well. But you're right, by and large, the Marine Corps, they eat their young. You know, if you're out of shape and can't keep up, you're definitely going to hear about it.

Wow, that is just incredible. Incredible. Yeah, kind of like the SEALs too. It's incredible. Just the discipline they have, the extreme ownership, and it's beyond human capabilities in my mind. Anyway, so another question I have for you then is you've spent much of your career with reconnaissance, Force Recon, and Marine Raider organization. What did those community teach you about leadership under pressure? Actually, before you even answer that, I wanna know, because I believe you were a corpsman in the Navy, right, Master Chief?

I was, yes.

So how does a corpsman end up spending so much time with special forces and the Marines?

Well, you know, the Marine Corps is a department of the Navy. They don't always like to admit it, but they are. And so we provide them with medical and, and some other things. And it's almost like the mafia. Once you're in the FMF side as a corpsman, you're probably not coming out.

Wow.

Um, and most of us love it, you know. And so I knew that's the, the, the way I wanted to go. And, and once I was in, and especially once I was in the community, Yes. When I first joined the reconnaissance community as a recon corpsman, it's— our pipeline is 2 years. And then when you come out of that, um, at the time there were, I think, maybe 110 or 120 of us in the whole Navy. And then, um, you know, so we've grown the numbers a little bit, but that's, you know, you're highly specialized because you go through all the same training, tactical stuff, dive school, jump school, all of that. And then on top of that, the advanced medical stuff. So you're— the Navy spent a lot of money on you at that point. You're not, you're not getting out of it.

Because I was just looking at your uniform. Yeah, you, you, you do have enlisted warfare pin, and as a common, you wouldn't have any of those. So it's because of your affiliation with the Marines that you were able to earn, to earn those? Is that right?

Yeah, we, we go— our pipeline consists of basic reconnaissance course, so we You know, I mean, you're literally— you do everything else, you're an active member of the team, all that stuff. You just— you're the guy who will fix everybody else if they get hurt or do dumb things, which Marines are very notorious for doing.

That is really incredible. And on top of that, you still have to keep your own Navy, uh, rate, uh, and still keep, keep learning about common stuff. And wow, that is amazing. Wow. Okay, so then to the question: what did this community teach you then about leadership under pressure? I'm assuming a lot of pressure.

Yeah, you know, I would say, um, it's, it's a combination. Brilliance on the basics, and that is because you're always going to default to your lowest level of training, or at least you know you've got that default.

Yeah.

And so it's that, that don't be afraid to just kind of break things apart and look at it from a fundamental standpoint. And I'll give a very quick sea story. We were getting ready for that last deployment I was on, and we got some— I forget what they're called— the MRAPs, I think, the— these new trucks, and they're huge. And we didn't end up really using them that much, but, um, we were all scratching our heads like, how would we get a casualty in here? So our entire team spent the better part of a day—

wow—

just messing around trying to figure out how to get litters in this thing and how we would— we, we practiced for 4 probably hours changing the tire. And, you know, you wouldn't think of that when you think of a special operations team, but it's those fundamental things that when everything else is going south, if you've got to have that dialed in to do all the other things that you're able to do. So I would say, um, you know, don't be afraid to start with the basics. Make sure you've got a solid foundation there and then start stacking on top of it.

That is so powerful. Yeah, in the Navy we call it Bob, right? Back on the basics, and, uh, that is so, so powerful, the fundamental. So what do you think then, Master Chief, what separates high-performing teams from average teams?

Honestly, I would go right back to that. High-performing teams do the basics brilliantly.

Yes.

And when you do that, then you can just, you know, everything else levels up.

So powerful. Okay, so you have served on teams as small as 4 operators and organizations exceeding 45,000 1,000 personnel. What leadership principle remains constant regardless of scale?

People are more important than things. And it's one of the, one of the core soft special operations truths is that people are more important than things. And I found that all the best leaders I've worked for, all the best teams, they value the people above everything else.

Hmm, that is powerful. I like that. And, uh, what leadership lesson did combat deployment teach you that cannot be learned in a classroom?

It's back to that defaulting to your lowest level of training. And when things go south, when, when stress is high, it's comforting to know that no matter what, this, this foundation that I have is going to get me through everything, because you can always default to that and then maneuver from there.

Now, throughout your career, you've worked alongside flag officers, generals, admirals, tribal leaders, but also junior sailors. What did all of those leadership environments have in common?

Um, that they're all just people. And it's, it's funny, BZ, because I've, you know, I'm coaching people individually now, and, and I have people throughout the last 5 years since I've been out, and then also when I was in, that would be really nervous to go in and sit with the general, or, you know, and I think back, I've, I think I've sat with like 3 Secretaries of Defense. I've sat in rooms that I probably had no business sitting in. And incredible, you know, of course, on the outside, CEOs and all these really, you know, I'm using my air quotes for anybody who's just listening powerful people, but you realize they're just people as well. And if you can make that human-to-human connection, you're going to get through whatever it is you're in there to do.

That is so powerful. After all, we are just human. So can you share a moment when a junior marine or sailor taught you an important leadership lesson?

This is one of the chapters in my book, and it's titled Don't Uh, please stop calling me princess. One of the guys that I worked with, and this was a deployment in Iraq, he was one of my best friends. And he was, um, his— one of his siblings was a professional comedian, and part of his routine was on my buddy. And my buddy sleeps with a sleeping mask, and so he called it his princess mask in this guy's, um, routine. And then of course, and I, I cannot take credit for it, I don't know where it started, but all the guys started calling this guy Princess because of this routine. Somebody had seen the siblings, uh, you know, standup routine, and it stuck. And this guy was a corpsman as well, and he was an ATL on the team, which was a big position for the corpsman to be an assistant team leader on the team. It's a big deal. And we deploy— this has been months now— we deploy and we're, we're at Al Asad, and he comes up to me. He was a second class at the time, and I was a brand new chief, pretty new. I'd been a chief for about 2 years. And he comes up and he's like, hey bro, can I talk to you? And I said, yeah, of course. And he said, um, could you stop calling me princess? And I was like, yeah, absolutely. And he said a lot of the younger guys. And he said, I don't care about the name, but it's— he said, I feel like it's impacting my ability to lead because people aren't taking me seriously.

Wow.

And I felt so bad, BZ. And I looked him in the— and I said, first off, I'm sorry, I didn't realize it had gotten out of hand. And the second thing I said to him is, I'll take care of it. And I went and talked to all the boys and I said, hey, it's done, like, stop. And so we did. And what that taught me was a lot about psychological safety, though I didn't know the word at the time.

Yes.

But the fact that he felt comfortable enough and safe enough to come and tell me, hey, basically I messed up by perpetuating that name, or at least playing into it. We all have nicknames, and it's certainly mild in comparison to a lot of the other nicknames that are out there. But the fact that it was impacting his leadership, or ability to lead, or at least his perception, of his ability to lead. And so that taught me the power of creating an environment where people feel free to speak up, and then, um, and then the follow-up with that, and of course admitting when you're wrong or, or you've, you know, made that mistake and owning it.

Yeah, I, I guess our culture, I think, throughout my 21-year career now, it has changed and I think improved in many, many ways, especially when you have a the new guy into a unit. No, they— back in the day, they used to pretty much harass you, uh, and humiliate you at, uh, at times. That has got so much, so much better now. And talking about callsign, is— do you have a favorite callsign from your time in the Navy?

Uh, of the ones that I can say on air, you know, I was always called Fletch, and I love that because I love the books, I love the movies.

All right, so that's what I'm going to call you, Fletch. That is better because when I use the call sign, I don't have to use your rank. So I won't be calling you Master Chief from now on. I will call you Fletch. That is wonderful.

I love it. I actually introduced myself to my wife as Fletch because it was so ingrained in my head.

Wow.

You know, we met at a grocery store and when we exchanged names, I said, I'm Fletch. And she said later she thought to herself, Fletch, that's a weird name.

Wow. That's really amazing how that happened. Just like me now, I probably pretty much go by Bizzy, as you know, in the Navy. That's Bravo Zulu. Now, there was a call sign kind of like Princess. I didn't really care much for it. I'm glad it didn't stick, but it was Bazinga. My last name is Zinga. I guess there is a show, what's his name? I know the name of the show, but anyway, very, very popular show. With that little geeky guy. Uh, anyway, it's gonna come back to me. But, but yeah, uh, busy, yeah, that's right, that's really stuck. And I love— is there a, uh, call sign that you absolutely didn't like?

For me? Um, no. And that's the thing, and my buddy didn't even— it's not that he disliked the call sign, but he— the point was that he felt like it was there was diminishing, you know, yes, his ability to lead. And that was the key because we all made fun of each other ruthlessly, things that, um, you know, are definitely not fit for normal civilian consumption. It's just the way we interact with each other. And I've talked to police and fire folks as well, and even nurses and doctors. And I feel like in people that are in a service industry, we all kind of have a dark sense of humor. And we all really rib each other a lot.

It is a way to cope, definitely, because sometimes we do see some pretty horrible things. Now you're talking about the most evil side of humanity, and you do have to deal with it somehow. Thank you so much for sharing that. So let's talk a little bit about culture, trust, and psychological safety, because one of your leadership equations is performance is equal to psychological safety plus sustainable growth plus relationship. Can you walk us through that framework, please?

Honestly, just going back to the story I told, right? When you've got that psychological safety, and that's one of the buzzwords right now, but really it just means that your people, you, they know that they are, they have the ability to say, I don't like this, this doesn't work. Or more importantly, what you really want to hear is, hey, I've got an idea.

Mm-hmm.

Because people are creative and resourceful and energetic and intelligent. And when you unlock that potential in them, you create a bias for action. And that's where that sustainable growth comes from because you've empowered them to take action. They know the intent, they know the idea, and they're just going to keep going knowing that you've got their back. And also knowing that, you know, and this is an arbitrary made-up number, but 99% of people don't fail maliciously. Honestly, if someone fails maliciously, it's easy. You get rid of them.

Yes.

Most others fail with positive intent. They're trying to do their best, they're trying to solve the issue, they're trying to make it better. And when you create that environment where people feel safe, then they feel safe to get to really get creative and try new things, knowing that if we fail, it's okay. We're going to pick ourselves up, we're going to dust ourselves off, we're Learn the lessons, share the lessons, grow from it, and move forward. And then the relationship side of that is, that's what connects that sustainable growth and bias for action. It's the bridge between the psychological safety and the relationships, right? Because when you create that relationship, like I did with my buddy, who would come and say to me, hey, this isn't working. I, I need your support in this. Of course, we make it happen. But had he not felt comfortable enough to say that to me, he would have continued down the other path.

I think that is really key, right? Because when you create psychological safety, people can speak up and they know that if they do, they will not be punished. And what they say is also going to be considered. It doesn't mean that your boss has to do everything you say, but at least they're gonna listen and they're gonna consider it. And then, of course, the boss is gonna decide whatever they are going to decide. So can you tell us why A lot of organizations I have been a part of, even outside of the military, they will say they want honest feedback. They want people to speak up and so forth. But again, when they do, many of them get punished for doing exactly what the boss says supposedly they wanted. So how can leaders create those environments where people truly feel safe to speak up, kind of like your buddy, the second class, who come to you and say, okay, we really need to change this?

Honestly, I think a lot of it is modeling the behavior you want to see in others.

Yes.

And if I'm sharing with you and being vulnerable and being authentic with you and telling you when I don't know things— and this is the biggest mistake I feel like senior leaders, really leaders at all levels, make— is always having the answer, never admitting when they're wrong.

Yes.

And never admitting when they don't know. The leaders, in my opinion, that are the best leaders are the ones who are the first to say, I don't know, what do you think? Or, hey, I messed that up. Or, I'm sorry. And that, that transcends because in my opinion, parenting is another form of leadership. And so, and I was having a conversation actually on Ones Ready. I just did that podcast again last weekend. And we talked a lot about saying you're sorry, saying you don't know, saying, you know, uh, soliciting ideas and all that from other people.

Yes.

And then I said one of the hardest areas for people to break the ice in that is doing it with your children, to say to your children, I'm sorry, I messed that up, or I don't know. Because as parents, we often feel like we always have to have the answer or be right.

True.

And then you're kind of modeling that for your children. So it translates directly to teams. If you're able to say, I'm sorry, I don't know, or what do you think, you're showing them it's okay, and they will do the same for you.

So powerful. It really shows humility, integrity, and character. One of the best flag officers I worked for used to say, you know, I may not have all of the answers,, but it's his job as creating the environment where the best answers are going to come. And, uh, I think that is so key.

And as, as a leader also, the only thing in my opinion you should be the smartest person in the room about is leadership. Hmm. Everyone else on the team should be the subject matter expert. And recently I've been describing it, and I'm not a comic book guy, but I've been describing it like the Super Friends or the superheroes. You know, you wouldn't want a table full of 10 Superman or Wonder Woman. What you want is, is like the Justice League or the Super Friends, where it's— you've got Aquaman, you've got Wonder Woman, you've got Superman. You can cover all the bases. The best teams are teams that are comprised of each person having— being— their superpower is, is different from everyone else's. And as a leader Your superpower should be leadership and, you know, choreography, choreographing what the team is doing, strategic vision, decision-making, and resource. Your job as a leader is to be the resource for everyone on that team.

Wow.

So well put. So one thing you have said is culture is a direct reflection of leadership. I totally agree with that. How does someone— how does a leader pretty much impact, or I guess design the culture? How does the leadership shape the culture for their organization?

I think it starts with your core values, realizing what it is that you stand for, and then also realizing that everyone else has different core values, and then deciding what it is that you— where you want to steer that ship. To speak. And once you do that, you've got to message that in a way that resonates with everyone, and more importantly, busy, that everyone buys into. Because culture change very slowly. Climate will change on a dime, but culture shifts very slowly. So the messaging, the communication, I feel like is very, very, uh, probably the most important piece of that.

I love that. Climate change on a dime, culture change very slowly. First time I'm going to say that, I'm going to give you all attribution, and then it's going to be my own. I love it.

That's right, that's right.

So if you walk into an organization for the very first time, what tells you whether the culture is healthy or unhealthy?

This is the thing I love the most. When I was a Command Master Chief, we would go visit all these different units, and you know, that's why I always say, and it's no fish story, I have seen thousands of different leaders and teams and organizations.

Um, I found that we do not lead from the fishbowl or from the tower. You actually go there and connect with the people.

Always out and about. COVID was, was my nightmare. It was my own personal hell because we weren't able to get out, and it was driving me crazy. It's what I loved about the job.

Wow.

Um, but to answer your question about the culture piece, when we would walk in, if people scattered or if it was like a ghost town, you knew the culture was bad. Compared to the units that we would visit where everybody was very proud and wanted to talk to the 3-star that was walking in and the Sergeant Major and the Master Chief and wanted to show what they were doing. They were proud of it.

Yes, there was—

I mean, it was palpable. Wow, the difference between the two.

That is really amazing. I think, uh, no, one of my dearest mentors, General Powell, something, he, he He liked to say management is a science, right? So with a science of management, you could in theory get people to work up to 100% of their ability. Although I think the last Harvard Business Review article I read, it says most people only give about 25 or 30% of what they actually are able to at work. But with management, you can get them up to 100%. But he said leadership will get them to go above and beyond 100%. So it goes beyond mathematic when people really buy into the vision. That's why in the military people are willing to go into those places where they get shot at and they do all kinds of things for their country. But I think it's not really for your country, you really do it for the sailor to your right and to your left. In my opinion, that's really the people you are truly fighting for. Have you experienced that?

I would agree with that 100%. You know, I mean, you are doing it, you You sign your name on the dotted line for the country, and then if you're one who ends up in combat, you're fighting for your brothers and sisters to your left and right.

Now, your book is coming, I believe it's July 14th, right? Next month. But people can pre-order right now. Good Humans Make Great Leaders: Inspiring Others Begins with You. Now, Why did this book have to be written? What inspired you to write it?

I wish there had been a book like this when I was a young leader, and I've written this book specifically for, or at least with, young leaders, aspiring leaders, and leaders who are in the position who have never received any leadership development training. I wrote this book with them in mind. I also wrote this book to be read in, in chunks, right? Um, I don't think any chapter is longer than 2,500 words, so every single chapter can be read in 10 minutes or less. It's, it's, you know, we all have short attention spans now, and what I really want it to feel like, Bizzy, is this: I want it to feel like it's just a conversation with someone who's probably got a little more experience than you and can share some wisdom But it really makes you think, because my way doesn't— isn't necessarily the right way for you. But if I can plant seeds that will help you grow your way, that's the, that's the, the thing that I wanted to get out of this. Because, you know, my, my thesis in this is you have to be a good leader— I mean, a good human to be a great leader. But just because you're a good human doesn't automatically make you a a great leader. It's a skill set that has to be taught, or that you have to learn. And most of us kind of learn it along the way. So this book, the first half is all about being a good human. What is it? What does it mean to you? How do you define it? How do you define it for yourself? And then the second half, we start stacking skills on top of that good human, you know, foundation, if you will. And they're the fundamental leadership skills. And so I've got 2 other books in my head. We'll see how this one lands. But the next one would be for more senior leaders who are leading teams of teams and grooming leaders behind them, the next generation. And then the third book in my head will be called Good Human, Great Leader, Now What? Which is the phase of life that I'm in, right? You've, you've had a full career, uh, and now you're kind of in transition. Does that mean you are sitting, you know, fishing every day, or are you Do you have an encore career? Like, how do you deal with the loss of that former identity of whatever it was you did for 30 or 40 years?

Yes, and it is true, it is a transition, but if I can, my suspicions are you're definitely gonna find ways to keep on serving in and out of the uniform. I guess this is just the person you become. And we have our first question from the audience. Daniel Young, uh, says civilian leaders often have to choose discipline and alignment without the structure the military provide, and that's where intentional leadership becomes critical. What do you recommend leaders do after they realize they have shared too much with the wrong person, and how do they reset the relationship and the code of collaboration without shutting down trust and psychological safety. So you've shared too much, how do you reset it?

That's a great question, and I've definitely fallen victim to that. Um, it, it goes back to that honesty and transparency, you know, kind of admit that, hey, I shared too much there, I made a mistake. And, and I would, I guess, wonder if the loss of trust was with the people that were giving them the information, you know, senior leaders to them, or if it was with the people that they're leading. But either way, those rounds are downrange, right? You can't get the words out or back after they've, they've left the front door.

Yeah.

So kind of owning that, being accountable and saying, hey, you know, I shared too much, um, and here's what I've learned from that, here's how we're going to go forward from that. So maybe with, um, the junior people, if it's someone you're leading your team, then just let them know, I'm going to share as much with you as I possibly can. Realize there are some things that I can't, and give yourself grace. I, I've shared too much in many things, BZ. I've shared too much of my personal life at times because I'm the guy who wears my heart on my sleeve. Uh, I've shared too much of probably what I shouldn't have shared from senior leaders that, you know, I was just having a conversation about this at work today. In the military, it's often like, it's, you have to make it your own. You know, it's, it's not, it didn't come from the, the boss. It comes from you.

Yes. Yes.

To me, this is the art of leadership. There are times when I said, hey, this is coming down from the top. And then there are other times when it came from the top and I said, okay, here's what we're going to do. And I, I can't even think of any examples, but I know I did it a lot.. And to me, that's the art of leadership is realizing the importance of when it's okay and necessary to say the boss is saying this and that's why we've got to do it. Or that's the intent maybe. Yes. Compared to not saying that and just saying, you know, we're going to go get this done. So owning, I guess, is the answer to that question.

Yes. Yes. That is so, so powerful. So Vimal and Dala question, our leaders, born or made?

I believe they are made. Um, I believe that certain people have a propensity for leadership because they are better, they are more emotionally intelligent, they are better— and I don't, I don't mean better, I meant to say better at dealing with other humans. They're more emotionally intelligent, self-aware, and they just, they're naturally gifted at connecting with people. But everyone can learn it.

You—

it's just like anything else. Certain people do have the aptitude. Once they started adding letters to math, I was out, right? So I don't have the aptitude for high-end math, but I could still learn enough to really get me through. And I feel like leadership is, is even easier than that. I feel like everyone has the capacity to be a great leader. You just have to be a good human first.

Well, you've said something else I've never heard before. When they started adding letters to math, I was out. That's so funny.

But it doesn't make sense, right? You're combining two things that shouldn't work.

I love it. But, but yeah, it is true. If you are in any branch of the military, you've got to know that leaders are made. Because, uh, I know this, uh, you know, seaman recruit, prior to that just being a civilian, I, I wasn't a leader at all. The Navy made me. And what, what is it in, in the Navy, but I'm sure all of the other branches of the military do the same thing, it looks like leadership is pretty much, you know, imbrained in everything we do from boot camp all the way up through all of your commands, even at the lowest rank. Like, I was only a seaman recruit and E-1, but even then I felt like the Navy was forging me to become a leader. What is it that we do that just makes leadership such a priority and is pretty much baked into everything we do in the service, it seems like?

The number one priority is lead yourself first. And that, I feel like, is service-wide, all branches. The first rule, the highest priority, is lead yourself first. So we start to instill leadership with the person in the mirror, and then of course it just grows from there.

That is amazing, because another thing you have said that I think intriguing is, the worst leaders I ever worked for was one of the best humans I know. What do you mean by that?

What I mean by that, and it's no one person, it's kind of a, a, you know, I have certain people in mind, but it's happened multiple times throughout my career where I've seen whether I was being led by them or I saw them, you know, uh, adjacently. There are some amazing humans out there that just are horrible. It would be like giving me complex math problem. Yeah, I would sit there and I would just want to cry, or I would try my best, but I wouldn't get it. And I've seen that so many times, Bizzy, where these people are amazing humans, but when you start to stack especially more complex leadership things, they're just— and it's either because they don't have the aptitude for it, they've never learned it, um, they've maybe to that point made it because they're so gregarious and, and likable and all that, but you get to a level where You have to do complex things as leaders, and it requires deliberate thought. And I don't want to say training, but deliberate thought and deliberate effort, just like honing your craft. I had to constantly stay on top of medicine and radios and guns and all the things that we do. Leadership is no different. It's constantly evolving, but it also, much like tactical stuff, is all rooted— I mean, you know, Sun Tzu, The Art of War, If you go back and read that, all the same principles there are there in my book. There are a couple things that truly came out of my head. They're still just concepts that I am able to describe in a way that might resonate with someone differently than someone else. But all this stuff is basically ingrained in us, or it's intuitive. You just have to be deliberate with it.

So true. So what are some of the leadership myths? You challenge in the book?

Great question. Um, one of the things I talk about is leadership by fear. I, I definitely could not disagree with something more. I feel like that is, um, you know, I think there are two types of leaders, good and bad. Everything else is the style. And I think leadership by fear is one of the worst leadership styles there is. I would also, um, oh, I had a thought and then it just escaped me. It'll come back. This happens all the time.

No, that's perfect. Let's talk about leadership by fear. In my experience, I saw that more when I was junior in real estate, so 20, 21 years ago, and I feel like with time it has kind of changed. Now it's more influence than fear. However, having said that, and I think I agree with you, but Like if you are in a combat zone, it's a time of war and it's a matter of life and death. It's not like we have all day and week, we can learn. It's like, hey, you absolutely have to do XYZ because if you don't, somebody is going to drop dead. I feel like in those instances, maybe fear is acceptable. I don't know. What do you think?

When I say fear specifically, what I mean is you should be afraid of me and my rank, not fear of whatever's going on.

Okay.

It's more like, I'm, I'm the whatever rank, insert rank, and so you will listen to me. It's, it's kind of what a lot of civilians think the military is. They think we all stand around at parade rest and salute when somebody walks by. That's not the way it works.

Okay, that's just being a narcissist. So that, that is, that is no good. Hopefully you are not leading anyone, but yes, but they are, they're out there.

Um, the other thing, and I wrote it down so I wouldn't forget, the other thought I had The other myth that I— and I don't know, I've heard it several times from people in our industry, in the coaching industry— is just ignore the voice in your head. And I could not disagree with something more. In fact, I've dedicated several chapters in the first part of the book to building a deliberate relationship with the voice in your head. And the goal is to create it into a copilot. So, you know, I grew up I was born in the '70s, grew up in the '80s. And in my mind, I'm a giant robot, right? And the voice that you're hearing is probably sitting in this eye. But looking out of this eye is the voice that you can't hear. It's the voice in my head. And so much of what we do and how we show up in the world is driven by this. It's driven by the narratives that is built by the voice in your head. So, the idea of, oh, well, just ignore it. Is to me the worst advice anybody could give. I feel like you've got to get in there, build a relationship with it, figure out what it is. I say you, you should personify it, you know. Is it the bully from high school? Is it Ted Lasso, the coach? Is it— what, what voice is there? And then what type of relationship do you want to have with it? And then actively build that relationship. That's that leadership of the person in the mirror. Once you've mastered that— well, you never master it— but once you've got a firm grip or grasp on that, then you can start to really lead others.

Wow, that could be life-changing because I'm sure some people, many times they join the military because they come from broken home. They just want to run away from wherever they come from. It could be an abusive father or whatever. That's usually the voice in the back of their head, that kind of, uh, what Wow, that is, that is really, really cool. Okay, so, uh, what is the difference between being a nice person and being an effective leader?

Effective leaders will say the hard thing and have those challenging conversations. And I've had some horrifically challenging conversations throughout my career. The first one, I think I was, uh, I think I was still 18 years old. When I had to have it. And, you know, I share that story in the book as well. But sometimes to show people you care, you have to say the hard things. Because really what you're telling them is, this is a fault, or this is a challenge that you're having, or a blind spot, or whatever it is. And I want the best for you. So you have to know this, because if you don't, you can't be better, or you can't make a decision or be deliberate in being better. And since then, in corporate, I've even seen— I've seen people get fired and literally have no idea why they were fired, which tells me the leader was not talking to them all the way up. Yes, right. And if you've got to let someone go or whatever, what I tell leaders is that person should walk into the room and say, I know you're letting me go. That tells me you've been talking to them all along the way. Metrics aren't being met or whatever the issue is. We've done everything we can do and we're at this final point. If the person walks in and they are surprised that whatever is happening is happening, then you failed as a leader.

I like that. So let me ask you a follow-on question then. How do you balance empathy for the individual and accountability?

Empathy and accountability are— they live on the same street but not in the same house. Empathy is about perspective sharing, and that's a matter of getting curious, grounding yourself in curiosity to see the, see the world through their eyes. Whereas accountability is what are you answerable for? And you have to answer for your actions. And so if I've given you a task, you are responsible to complete that task. You're accountable for whatever it is. And so if I'm If I'm having that conversation with you, I would start with empathy and say, hey, how do you think you did on this? Get their perspective first. Because if they say, oh, I know I totally messed it up, that conversation goes this way. If they say, oh, I think I'm doing great, that tells me they don't have a firm grasp on reality. So we have to ground ourselves in reality then, which is a completely different conversation.

Well, I believe this could be a life changer, everyone. We're talking about the book, Good Humans Make Great Leaders. Again, it is available for pre-orders right now and starts shipping July 14th next month. So I encourage everyone to get a copy. So let me ask you this, Fletch, if readers only remember one lesson from your book, let's say 5 years from today, what do you hope that lesson is?

The lesson is build a relationship with the voice in your head, lead the person in the mirror deliberately, everything else will fall into place.

And the person in the mirror, that's you.

That's right.

That is amazing. Uh, which chapter was one of the most difficult for you to write?

The chapter on love. It's, it's the The chapter about loving yourself was challenging to write because there's so many different definitions of love. And I believe how you feel about yourself largely dictates how you show up and treat others in the world. So trying to figure out how to define that and put it to words in a way that was meaningful was challenging.

That, that could be so significant, and it's so insightful. It says, "Love your neighbor as yourself." So if you don't love yourself, you can't love your neighbor. And I think a lot of those narcissistic leaders we talked about, to think, "Oh, fear me, I am the rank," and all of that is because they hate themselves and that's how they show up. And that is quite powerful. Thank you for sharing that. So did writing the book change your own views on leadership?

I don't know that it changed them, Bizzy. I feel like it codified them. And as I was— you know how it is when you're writing things out, it makes you think in a different way. And if, if you could— if I could turn the camera around, which I can't, but I've got two dry erase boards full of ideas for this, you know, the next stuff. But, um, that's really what it did more than anything. It codified my, my ideas, what I thought. And also, as I facilitate workshops and, and coach and all that stuff, I'm getting feedback on the things that, you know, and really same thing with my, my career in the military because I still receive feedback. In fact, one of the chapters in there is called Driveway to Driveway Leadership, which apparently I'd said at one point and years later some first class came up and said, yeah, when I was a third class, you talked to us about driveway to driveway leadership. And I said, what is that? And he re-explained it and I was like, I don't even remember saying that.

Wow.

Then when he put it back in my head, I was like, oh, okay, now I remember.

Okay, what is driveway-to-driveway leadership? Can you tell us a bit more about that?

It's basically realizing that a— there is a human being that leaves a driveway in the morning and not just someone that shows up at the parking lot at work. So it's all about getting to know your people and realizing that we drag things from work into the office and from office back to work. And the best leaders take both of those individuals, you know, both driveway to driveway, both driveways into account.

I love it. Well, with this segment, we're going to end with this: good humans make great leaders. So how do you define a good human? I really love your focus on our shared humanity, but what is a good human?

So my definition of a good human is you don't kick puppies, you don't steal candy from babies, don't be an ass, and always give up your good seat so a family can sit together on the airplane. And what does that mean? Don't kick puppies means don't go out of your way to be evil or malicious to anyone else. Don't steal candy from babies means don't take anything from one— anyone else that doesn't belong to you, mainly their trust, their emotions, or their energy. And likewise, don't let anybody steal yours. Right? Your candy. Uh, don't be an ass. Never make assumptions. Always ask the question.

Yes.

One of the things that gets us in trouble is making assumptions about others. Ground yourself in curiosity. Always ask questions of others if you don't know the answer. Don't assume you know it. And then give up your good seat. Pretty self-explanatory. If you're going to go out of your way to do anything for anyone else, go out of your way to be of service to other humans.

Wow.

I wish we all would strive to be good humans. The world would be such a much better place, wouldn't it?

Wow.

Well, be the drop that starts the ripple. The only thing we can control is, you know, that kind of immediate sphere of influence. And if we all do our part, then the ripple effect will be massive.

Wow, that is, that is powerful. In Africa, we say, right, it takes a village to raise a child. I think that's generally true. And I don't know, like you, I was born in the '70s, grew up in the '80s and '90s. Back then, when a child or a friend or somebody, they don't have to be your child, but just an uncle down the street or whatever, you do something wrong, everybody's going to tell you, hey, you did something wrong. This is bad. We don't do that here. The worst thing that could happen to you is for you to be completely outcast by your tribe. It's like, because if it did that, you would literally die, right? So it's like you always try to be on your best behavior and do what's expected and always put your foot forward. But I don't know, I feel like today in the age of social media, people, they behind the keyboard and they just go on and say all kind of nasty stuff that are really not socially acceptable. But it's almost like nobody cares anymore. And I think if people read your book and they go back to really thinking about our shared humanity, what it means to what it means to be a US citizen and the neighbor, I think that could change a lot.

I would agree with you completely. And back to the, it takes a village to raise a child. I feel like what you described exists in teams as well. You said, I was always on my best behavior 'cause I didn't wanna disappoint anyone. If we all act like that within our teams and you don't wanna be the weak link in the team, You want to contribute, you want to do the best that you can, then the team is going to crush it.

Wow, that is powerful. Okay, I've already blown past our time. I think I'm 7 minutes over. Can I steal about 5 more minutes of your time before?

Of course, yeah.

Okay, fantastic. So let's do this. I like this leadership lightning round. So I'm going to ask a question, answer as quickly as you can, and be as brief as you can be. Hopefully we're going to get a lot of questions there, and then we're we're gonna go ahead and, uh, be done with the interview. So what is, uh, the best leader you ever served with?

Oh, that's challenging. I would say an amalgamation of just one.

One of them?

General Love. General Love was one of my favorites. Uh, he retired as a lieutenant general. It's, it's hard to say because I loved all the generals that I worked for. They were all amazing.

For General Love, what do you think is the one trait that made him exceptional?

He was, you know what, he had a very, he was very regimented and you knew exactly where you stood with him. Expectations were always very clear. And then General Boudreau was an amazing listener, so Yes. Again, I could go on with all of them. They all had a, a, a quality, but those two stand out in my head. And they were some of the latter generals that I had. Yeah.

I love that. Fairness, consistency, but also listening, empathy. I, I love it. Uh, most important leadership trait?

Humility.

Okay. A leadership book everyone should read?

The Power of TED. And it's not really a leadership book. It's more about understanding the human landscape. It's based on the dreaded drama triangle that was created by Stephen Karpman back in the '60s.

Wow, that is really powerful. I am getting an image of it. I thought I already had it here. Here we go. David Emerald, The Power of TED, The Empowerment Dynamic. I love that. Now, outside of your books, I think on LinkedIn, I saw you had read this Unreasonable Hospitality. Why should my audience read this one?

This one is about how can you serve others better.

How—

and, and we just did this as a book club, uh, at work, you know, my current, um, organization. And we're service-based, you know, we're a software as a service type company. And it's really just about providing the— how do you, how do you provide provide so much hospitality it's almost unreasonable. How do you go above and beyond in ways that matter and impact?

What about this one, Left of Leadership, Scott?

This one is written by one of my, one of my buddies actually. Uh, he lives just down the road from me, Scott Stocker, and this is his first book as well. It's kind of an initial foray into leadership written in a very similar vein as is mine.

That's— I really like that, the prequel. Prequel, not sequel, but the prequel to Success, Left of Leadership.

That's right. I just saw a post yesterday. He just finished the draft of his second book. So I think that one will be out soon.

You have to ask Scott to come here because this is the Leadership and Success podcast. So his book will be perfect for my listener.

I will definitely connect with you, UBZ, because he ended up retiring. I think he He was a senior enlisted advisor for Space Force.

Wow, this is really, really awesome. And by the way, because of you, Daniel says from YouTube, grateful today for the opportunity to learn from leaders who have operated at the highest level and still center humanity in leadership. This is where generational leadership evolution happens. Yes, I think we definitely need to return to our humanity, and I think if we do, We're going to find ways to solve our problems and conflict without having to resort to violence, which is kind of weird. I don't know if you feel the same way, but being an information warfare commander, a man of war, a sailor, I always feel like we should be the very, very, very, very last resort. Let's use the diplomacy. Let's do everything we can to resolve all of the conflict because war is bad. War is very, very, very bad. So I almost want to have the most powerful military in the world, so that conflict would not even start, right? And just let's just find ways to be humans again. I really feel very, very strongly about that.

You know what I think of BZ? I think of martial artists or the quiet person in the room who is very self-aware, very emotionally intelligent, and very capable of great violence if needed. But they don't want to, nor do they use it.

Yes, yes. So true. Okay. What is the most overrated leadership trait in your opinion?

Wow.

Most overrated leadership trait is— golly, I would have to think on that one. Yeah, maybe I'll have to come back to that one.

No problem. Because I think they're all good. Yes.

Okay.

Let me ask it a different way. One of those narcissistic people we talked about says, "No, I am the rank. I am the fear." What is about them that makes them such a bad leader?

It's ego. So maybe that's—

Big ego.

But I wouldn't see— and maybe that's why, because I wouldn't consider ego a leadership trait.

Yes.

But it's detrimental to leadership.

Unchecked ego, yes.

Yes.

Wow, okay. One habit that has contributed most to your success.

Say that one more time.

One habit that you think has contributed the most to your success.

One—

Habit, something that you do.

Self-reflection.

Very good. And what's something leaders should stop doing immediately?

Micromanaging.

All right, we are pretty much at the end here. I have a couple more questions, but I'm gonna do this first. Thank you so much for your time, Fletcher. I really, really appreciate that. You've given so much of your wisdom and expertise to us, especially for the junior enlisted folks who follow the show. I think this is really, really great. Actually, before I go to the next segment, what would you say to a junior enlisted who's listening to you right now? Again, you retired as an E-9. That's like, whoa, the top of the chain of command for enlisted, of the ladder. What would you tell them? I am just an E-1, E-2, or E-3. What would you tell them to encourage them to keep going and do the very best they can?

I would tell them to be the best version of themselves that they can every single day and to enjoy the journey.

Again, that consistency. I love it. All right. So as we come toward the end of the show, what can we do to now give value back to you?

Please connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm, I'm most active on LinkedIn. I also have an Instagram and a Facebook. I think it's Jody Fletcher One. It's— I think it's connected there on LinkedIn as well. And then my website is goodhumangreatleader.com, so you can connect with me there. And if you go to the resource page, I'm creating flashcards that fit on your phone and they go— they coincide with chapters of the book. So it's almost like having just the highlights of each chapter on your phone so that you can kind of scroll through if you're getting ready to go have a difficult conversation. Or the dreaded drama triangle stuff is in there. There's flashcards. There are 4 to 8 cards per deck, if you will, and they're the highlights for, uh, they correspond with chapters and workshops that I do.

So you did have this website, Good Humans Make Great Leaders. This is you, right?

Yeah, it's good. Yeah, the website is goodhumangreatleader.com.

Wow, I wish you had added that to your LinkedIn page. I think LinkedIn only shows the place you work as a civilian now, because this would have made my job a lot easier when I was doing research for— and for some reason Google didn't bring that to my research team. Okay. I have updated the tracker. So here it is, www.goodhumangreatleader.com. Now, when people purchase the book, some authors do, others don't, do you give free bonuses or some type of subscription to something to people who purchase your book and go back to your website?

That's one of those things, Bizy, that the publishers are telling me to do and And I don't. If you go to resources, it's free for anybody. And the reason I do that is I want to spread the love, right? So whether you buy my book or not, um, if you go to those resources and you click on each one of those, or a card deck, and they all correspond— but honestly, anybody could probably open one of those and get something from it. Of course, it's more meaningful if you've read the chapter. And it looks weird on the website, but when you look at it on your phone, it's perfectly formatted, and that's what it's designed for. So you can just kind of scroll through and it talks about red flags, green flags, and all of them, and then just kind of the, the wave tops for everything.

You, uh, and you can find decks in there right now, but I'm building more away for free. Wow, thank you, thank you. Yeah, so one thing you need to do, Fletch, I think if you go back to your LinkedIn thing, you've got one website, vantaka.com, that's fine. I think LinkedIn allows you to have up to 3. You definitely need to add it here because when people interview and stuff, they can just go to your website and look at your bio and learn more about the book. Man, if I had access to that, I probably would have had more insightful questions for you. But no, this is great. Thank you so much.

Wow.

Yeah, no, I just changed websites, so that's why it's relatively new.

Fantastic. Okay. Is there a question I should have asked you? I have a chance to ask, and anything else my audience can do to add value to you?

I don't think so, Bizzy. I really appreciate the time. I had a great time. Um, you know, if, if in the future you want a book club or something like that, I'm, I'm down for doing that kind of stuff. So, uh, no, I really— and I will try to connect you with Scott and see if we can get him on the show too. He's a, he's a blast to talk to.

I am sure it'll be okay. As we end the show, so we're going to be landing this Plan, I like to end it asking you this quick question, uh, what did you want to be as a kid?

I wanted to be a writer.

Wow, you are a writer. Excellent. Okay, 3 adjectives describing you as a child.

As a child? Uh, mischievous, curious, and energetic.

As an adult?

I would say mischievous, curious, and energetic.

Consistent again. All right, uh, I'd like to end on a positive note. Uh, what is something you are feeling optimistic about?

I feel optimistic about the young people coming up. And it's, it's the one thing people always ask when you've been out for a while, do you miss it? And you know, I'm still close to the base and I still get together with a lot of my buddies But it was about a year out that I realized I miss being around young people because I love to hear their ideas and, and I know they're creative and all of that. So I missed that, um, but I'm very optimistic about the future because every generation brings something new. I believe we brought something new, and, uh, yeah, I'm optimistic about the future with our young people.

Yeah, because, uh, Gen Z— so I have two daughters in there. One is 18, the other one 24. But I feel like in the first time in our entire history, a generation feels less optimistic than the generation before. Because for us Gen Xers, I mean, it was easy. We're going to do better than those before us. But today, like even in California, it's like, would they ever be able to afford a house? Looks like things are so gloomy. AI taking away all of the entry-level jobs they normally would have. It's very, uh, depressing. And like I say, the first time ever it's, it's, it seems like they're not gonna do as well or even better than their parents. What would you say to the Gen Z, those young people?

I've seen clips recently up from the, the '90s about Gen X, and they said the same thing. And I feel like every generation probably goes through it. You know, we're in this new revolution with with AI and everything else. But I will say the one thing, Bizzy, that I love about the generations coming up behind us is they're more in touch with their emotion and self-awareness, um, and their communities too, uh, more than we did. And so I feel like whatever challenges are thrown their way, they're gonna get through it. We all had adversity, we all had challenges, we got through it. They're going to get through it. I feel like they might have the capacity to get through it better than we did because because most of them are a little more in touch with what's going on in here and not just—

so true. Well, that is a great, great point to stop on. So the final question, uh, one word that represents our shared experience on this podcast today, one word.

One word. Grateful.

Grateful. Oh, actually, I think I have one more question. I stole that from, from another podcast. I've never done this before, but I want you to think about a question I should ask the next person I'm going to interview on the show. What question would you like to ask them? You have no idea who that person is, but—

What was the biggest impact a leader had on your life?

Wow.

Okay. I love that. Okay. I've noted that the next person I interview, biggest impact a leader had on your life. Thank you so much, Fletcher. I really, really, really appreciate it. So that's Master Chief. No, Command Master Chief Jody Fletcher. Pleasure. US Navy retired. Well, congratulations on such a great and outstanding career, and thanks so much for all of your hard work and for really keeping America safe under your watch. And now it's up to that next generation, and I know we're gonna have great, great leaders coming out. And the next Command Master Chiefs and Information Warfare Commanders are gonna do even greater jobs and better than we did. Thanks again for all you do, and you continue teaching us through your works and your books. So whenever your book is finally released next month, we can have you back here. I am definitely open to that, especially when you publish the next book in the series. So thank you for all you do, Fletch. Really appreciate it.

Thanks for having me, Bizzy. It's been a pleasure.

All right, everyone. Now this is one for the book. Again, if you would follow Fletch on LinkedIn. So that's on linkedin.com, uh, and it's Monica LinkedIn. Oh, actually this is the wrong one. Here, here it is. Okay, linkedin.com and it's Monica Jody Fletcher Professional Coach. All right, and, uh, this website goodhumangreatleader.com. Go ahead and purchase a copy of a book today and, uh, it will be, uh, towards your door on July the April 14th, that's when it's going to be officially released. Good Humans Make Great Leaders. Inspiring others begins with you. All right. As we end the show today, as you know, we like to celebrate what I now call Black History Year because I felt like Black History Month was just too short. So a couple of stories kind of come to mind. Number one, today is when, let me see, we are June 12th, right? So on this day, on June 12th, uh, let's see. Okay, here we go. Uh, a white police officer, uh, beat an elderly Black woman to death in Selma, Alabama. Her name was Nisi Brown. She was 74 years old. And you can read more about it on my LinkedIn post. And then the second thing I'd like to talk about was the very first African American Secretary of State, which also was the very first African American Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and that's General Colin L. Powell. And you can read about that too on my post. So as we end the show today, I'm gonna play a couple of short clips first about Miss Nissi Brown, but then about General power. Thank you so much for watching, and I think tomorrow I will come back. I don't have a guest, but we're gonna go back through the Book of Proverbs. This is not a religious show in any way. It's just about the ancient wisdom and the leadership lesson from the Book of Proverbs, how a book written more than 2,000 years ago is still relevant today and what those leadership lessons still mean for us. Okay, I'm gonna play those two clips, and that's gonna be the end of the show. Thanks again for watching.

Niecey Brown was born Niecey Carmichael in 1874 in Alabama to John and Edie Carmichael. Because Niecey was born 9 years after black people were emancipated, it means that her parents were likely formerly enslaved black people. In 1890, when Niecey was in her late teens, she married Elijah Brown, also known as Leige. He was born in 1870, also in Alabama. To Charles and Frances Brown. His parents were born over 20 years before black people were freed, which means they too were likely enslaved. Niecy and Liege's parents lived through some of the worst times for black people. Freedom was supposed to bring equality, in the hope that their children would see a promising future. But that's not what happened. Niecy and Liege grew up during a time when new ways were being created every day to keep black people bound and in chains. They saw the birth of Black Codes, convict leasing, peonage, and sharecropping. But despite all of this, Nisey and Liege managed to survive. They managed to survive in an environment where everything around them was trying to make them fail. Both Nisey and Liege could read and write, and they were farmers. By the year 1900, they had 3 children: a son, William, and 2 daughters, Lovenia and Francis. By the time 1940 came around, Niecy and Liege's family had grown. They were now in their late 60s and had several grandchildren. Despite all of the barriers that had been placed in front of black people to stop them from being successful, Niecy and Liege managed to survive. It didn't mean that they didn't face the daily indignities that black people went through, but they had managed to make it through it. Survival in Jim Crow for black people was always temporary. Temporary. At any moment, the rug could be pulled out from underneath you. One second you were alive and well, and the next Jim Crow has stolen everything from you. And that is what happened to Nisi and Leige in 1945. On the night of June 9th, 1945, 72-year-old Nisi Brown and 75-year-old Leige Brown were at their home in Dallas County, Alabama. At home with them were two of their grandchildren, an 11-year-old girl and a 7-year-old boy. All of a sudden, they heard a knock at their front door. Niecy went to see who it was that was at their home so late. When she went to open the door, she saw a 26-year-old white man standing there named George Booker. Booker was a police officer for the Selma Police Department, but he was not on duty and he was drunk. Booker asked Niecy where her daughter was. When Niecy did not tell him, Booker became angry. He tried to force his way into the house. Niecy tried to stop him, and that's when things went from bad to fatal. Booker took out a bottle or some sort of club and began beating Niecy over the head with it. Liege was in the bed and heard Niecy screaming and the commotion coming from the front room. He got out of his bed to rush to see what was going on. When he got there, Booker threatened Liege. That's when Liege went back to his bedroom and got his weapon. When he came back, Booker was still beating Nisi and she was on the floor.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach Bisi. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.