S5:E144🎙️ LIVE with Celeste Warren

Hi, I'm John Maxwell. When the top companies in the world are looking for trainers, speakers, and coaches, there's one name that stands above the rest, and that's Maxwell Leadership. Our certified team members have gotten proven results for companies all over the globe, and our reputation, I'm proud to say, is second to none. Some of our members have risen to the top of their profession, including the one you're going to meet today. I proudly introduce you to my friend, Bob Fabien Zinga.

Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ, where we help you lead with purpose and succeed with impact. If you're ready to grow into the kind of leader others want to follow, this podcast is for you. If you're determined to elevate your success and leave a lasting legacy, this podcast is for you. As my mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell, reminds us, everything rises and falls on leadership. Our goal is simple: to inspire you, challenge you, and equip you with insights that can transform the trajectory of your leadership journey. Welcome aboard to another episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast with Coach BZ.

Celeste Warren, a transformative leader who has dedicated her entire career championing diversity, equity, and inclusion.

It's more important than ever now to approach things thoughtfully and strategically to make progress in today's complex environment.

During her time as a Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer at a global Fortune 100 company, Celeste has reshaped corporate culture for global success. Celeste has been recognized for her outstanding work in diversity, equity, and inclusion, honored with prestigious titles like Top Executives in Global Diversity, and Chief Diversity Officer of the Year, Celeste's impact resonates worldwide. Celeste serves on influential boards, contributing her expertise to drive meaningful change. She is also co-founder of Destination STEM, a nonprofit created to provide resources to students of color and students in need pursuing degrees in STEM. Celeste Warren, a beacon of hope, a catalyst for change.

All right, thank you for watching, uh, this next episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast. I am so grateful you are here. Please let us know where you are joining us from, what city, what state, and also what you are grateful for today. As you know, we want to start the show with what we call here a moment of gratitude. And I think it is so important, especially for those like me who have served in uniform. It's about 21, 22 service members and veterans who commit suicide in this country every single day. And we believe that it's not possible to be grateful and suicidal at the very same time. So if you would, as is our tradition here, maybe close your eyes, take a deep breath, put yourself in your happy place, and think about one thing you are grateful for right now. Since June 10th, we've been grateful on the show for freedom. I believe human beings We're meant to be free. Like Pat Henry said, "Give me liberty or give me death." And from June 10th to July 4th, I want to be so grateful for the freedom we have in this country, and especially for the men and women in uniform who have fought and many times, you know, given their life, done the unimaginable, really the extreme sacrifice so that we could be free. America, the home of the brave, the land of the free. And I'm talking about freedom for everybody, including African Americans. Of course, African Americans weren't included on July 4th, 1776. We had to wait until, uh, basically 1865 before we became free in this country. But I am so glad that we are free, and we want to keep that freedom. And that's what I'm so grateful for. Okay, let me see if I can quickly introduce my illustrious guest today. I am really excited to welcome my friend and author, speaker, transformational leader, Celeste Warren, to the Leadership Success Podcast today. After an extraordinary 20-plus-year career at Merck, where she rose to become Vice President and Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer, Celeste continues her mission of helping organizations create environments where both people and performance thrive. Today, she leads Celeste Warren Consulting, and she's the co-founder of Destination STEM, a nonprofit dedicated to expand opportunities for students pursuing careers in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics. She is also the author of two outstanding books. We're going to be focusing today on The Truth About Equity: What It Really Is, What It Isn't,, and Why Everyone Wins When We Get It Right. But she's also the author of the bestselling book, How to Be a Diversity and Inclusion Ambassador. Her message is simple but quite powerful. Leadership isn't about lowering standards. It is about removing barriers so everyone has the opportunity to contribute and succeed. That includes African Americans and women. So as a cybersecurity executive and information warfare commander in the US Navy, I do believe that the best leaders create conditions where people can perform at their highest level. That's exactly what this conversation is going to be all about. Part of what we're gonna be learning today is the truth about equity and why everyone wins when we get it right. Everyone. All right. Uh, we're also gonna be talking, uh, about, um, practical ways to lead with courage, with empathy and accountability. So without any further ado, please help me welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast, the one and only Celeste Warren. Good morning. How are you doing today?

Good morning to you too, Bob. That was a wonderful, wonderful introduction and so energetic. I love this energy.

Thank you. Thank you. It's such a great, great privilege to be talking with you today. I think it was maybe back in January, I think maybe February, when I first sent you the invite, but I'm just so glad we were able to make this work out. I've been looking forward to speaking with you. You do a work that is so important, especially right now. In 2026, if you can believe it. Maybe to get started, what is one thing you are grateful for today?

Um, I'm grateful for, um, my family, my faith. Um, I'm grateful for the life that I've led so far and being able to have the opportunities that I've had so far. And I know that it's grace and mercy that has basically got me to where I am right now. And it'll keep on getting me there moving forward in this next leg of my life's journey.

Amen to that. And sometimes I wonder, why is faith so important, especially with the type of work that you do? And when you think about the struggle of African Americans in this country from the very beginning until now, and it's It is just amazing to me, right? The faith we have in God, in what our country could be, and really the faith in our fellow US citizen, fellow American, right? In doing the right thing and being more inclusive. But anyway, I am just awed and amazed by the strength, the resilience, and the faith we have demonstrated over and over. And over again. Is there something about you that's maybe unique, maybe one of your superpowers, something that most people may not know when they first meet you?

You know, it's interesting, the roles that I've had, the journey that I've had in life, people think that I'm an extrovert, and I'm not. I am an introvert. Anyone who knows me very, very well understands that I am an introvert. I have, after decades of being in the field that I've been in and having to have to engage with people and being on stages and things like that, I have coping mechanisms and things that I do. But I am an introvert. And when I tell people that initially, they kind of look at me and go, what? So they don't believe me. But it's true. I love to just curl up in a blanket on my couch and watch good movies and with my husband, my daughter, my son, and other close friends. So yeah.

Wow.

You could fool me for sure. And talking about stage, recently you've been on the TEDx stage. I know it's not out yet, but it will be soon. So congratulations for that. Man, look at you, you are just everywhere doing all kinds of things. Do you have time to sleep? My goodness. Wow. Incredible.

I do. I do have time to sleep.

That's amazing. I want to talk about the leader behind the mission. I just learned that your father was actually the very first African American teacher and principal in his district. That's pretty awesome. What leadership lesson did you learn from watching him navigate barriers with dignity and perseverance?

Yeah, my father was the first Black teacher and principal in western Pennsylvania and eastern Ohio. And so every day he would come home from work and my mom would ask him at the dinner table, "Honey, how was your day?" Any normal question. And he would then proceed to tell her about the challenges that he faced, the obstacles that he faced. But he didn't just talk about the challenges and the obstacles. He talked about what he did to overcome them.

Wow.

And listening to their conversation, I had a front row seat to all of those sort of foundational elements that shaped me throughout my entire life. So what I learned from both my mom and my dad, because my mom was the CFO, COO of our household, and so she, she, when she would ask him these questions and they were engaging in the conversation, my mother was from the heart of Pittsburgh. So she was from the north side of Pittsburgh where all, at that time, most of the African Americans lived. And my father was from that same small steel mill town that I grew up in. And so I had her fire. She was sort of an activist. So when my dad would say, this is what happened, she would get all fired up and say, well, you should have done this and you should have done that. And he would basically be a very calm, disciplined leader. Direct and forthcoming, but very calm. So he was sort of— it was like earth and fire.

That's really beautiful. Wow.

I learned throughout the leadership traits that I learned was that Passion is good. So I have that passion from my mother. And also leading with discipline, with directness.

Yes.

With discernment as well.

Wow.

I think is really, really important. And those skills have been with me, like I said, since, since childhood, teenager and adult.

That is so wonderful to hear. Was there maybe a moment in your childhood when you kind of realized, hmm, maybe your life's work would involve creating opportunities, not just for yourself, but for other people?

You know, it's so interesting, Bob. When I was a child, I was a student athlete. I played basketball and I played volleyball in high school. And then in college, I got a scholarship at the University of Kentucky to play volleyball. And so for me growing up, I wanted to be a reporter and I wanted to be a sports reporter. Wow. And so everything was pigeonholed in that career path. So I was on— in high school, I was on the school newspaper staff and yearbook. In college, I was one of the first Black females to be a sports reporter for the Kentucky— University of Kentucky. Newspaper. I had my own radio talk show, and I was just loving it. And after I graduated from undergraduate, I was a reporter at the largest radio station there in Kentucky. And, um, and so the challenge was I wasn't making hardly any money, and I had to keep writing home and calling home to my mom and dad and like, you know, can you help me out with rent for my apartment? And it was embarrassing, you know, because I'm supposed to have— I've I'm supposed to be adulting. I graduated from college, and I was supposed to be this mature woman, career woman. And having to have to write home was kind of demeaning to me. So I kept thinking, OK, as soon as I get that television job, I'm going to be making money. And so I got an interview for the ABC affiliate television station there in Lexington. I went and interviewed and I got the job. They sent me the contract for the, for the role, and Bob, it was only a few hundred dollars more than what I was making as a radio. I was so just dejected. I went through what I call pre-pre-pre-pre-mid-career crisis. So here's something that I had been wishing for since I was like in the 8th grade. You know, I wanted to be— you remember, uh, you know, Robin Roberts? She's on Good Morning America now, but used to be on ESPN. So I wanted to be the next Robin Roberts. And, and so I was just— I was so disappointed and just dejected. And, and I was talking to my older sister, and, and, um, she was a teacher, followed in the path of my father.

Yeah.

And, and, uh, she lived in, in near home in Pittsburgh. And she was saying, well, why don't you go back to grad school? Why don't you go to grad school? And then you have time to kind of think about the pivot that you want to make with your career. And so I was like, I wasn't one of those people that loved school. It was just for me a means to an end. But in our household with my parents, it wasn't, do you want to go to college? It was, which college do you want to go to?

Yes.

So I said, you know what, yeah, I will, because I was really at this sort of inflection point. And I loved what I did, but I just wasn't the type to want to rely on my parents. I was very independent. And so I turned down the job. I left Lexington, came— my mother talked me into coming back near home. And I ended up at Carnegie Mellon University with a master's degree. And so I got the master's degree in management and human resources management and started in that field. And it was sort of— it fit me like a hand to a glove. It was perfect for me. How do you look at people? Looking at how do you get the most out of people? How do you match and align the organization's interests and goals with the employee's goals? How do you line all that stuff up? This is where the learnings from a diversity and inclusion standpoint where it really just stood out and came out because I was doing what I needed to do to make sure that whatever I was creating, whatever policy strategies, initiatives, that we weren't leaving anyone behind.

Wow.

And everyone had a place in the systems and the infrastructure that we were creating.

Wow. That's really something. That's a good segue for my next question, because you spent, what, 28 years at Merck, and you rose to become, like I said in the intro, VP and Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer. What prepared you for that level of leadership?

Well, I think, you know, the early childhood was the foundation with my parents. Um, what I went through going to— you can imagine going to Kentucky, Lexington, Kentucky, in the— at that time it was the '80s. Um, so there was a lot of learning there, being in the South and coming from Pittsburgh and, uh, and from Western Pennsylvania and, and not really having seen it and knowing that inequity exists. But seeing it in the South, that was a whole different story. Even on the campus I was at, after I graduated and I started working, you kind of saw it alive and well there, just permeating in the culture. So that helped me to see about— Wow, look at this, look at his front and center. Then also, just when I was creating in human resources and looking at the organizations that I was working with and seeing the inequities and understanding that it didn't just start with the people, you have to really look at the processes, the systemic things.. And so I learned that, you know, young and maybe even, um, not truly been, been able to understand and put and articulate it as I can right now, but knowing that it goes beyond just the people. You gotta look at the things that are causing challenges for the people. And, and it kind of clicked for me what my father was talking about, cuz he was trying to thrive, not just survive, but thrive. In a system that wasn't created for him. It wasn't created for a Black man back in the '60s and '50s. And so, um, it— for me, it started to click as I grew in my career that it's not just about making sure that you have representation in the organization, but you have to look at the policies, the procedures, the practices, and all of that, because that's kind of what my father was talking about back then. All of the, what he called inequities and lack of diversity, lack of diversity and lack of inclusive culture.

Yes.

Wow.

That is really powerful. Looking back now, what adversity shaped you the most as a leader?

What adversity? Oh, um, whenever I didn't get something that I wanted badly, um, from the standpoint of your career, from the standpoint of things that you learn in your career. So I can remember I went to a role, um, and this was with the first company that I was with And because I was with a few different companies before I came to Merck. And I can remember getting a job and I came in with about 4 or 5 other people at the same time. And we all had similar type experience. And I remember I was talking with a colleague And for some reason, she brought up how much she was paid and how much they paid her. And it hit me like a ton of bricks because I was paid several thousand dollars less than she was. And I mean, you talk about inequity hitting you in the face. And I don't know why she shared with me what— what she was making, but she did. And I didn't share with her what I was making. And I remember the impact that it had on me.

Wow.

How I felt devalued, how I felt marginalized, how I felt that they didn't value what I brought to the table, my skills, my capabilities, my strengths.

Mm-hmm.

And so That stayed with me for a lot, for it was several weeks. I just sat on it. I didn't do anything about it. And then I eventually had a conversation with my manager about it. And of course, it's so funny because the first thing that they say is, well, they shouldn't have told you that. She shouldn't have told you and give you that information. Because it's like kind of don't ask, don't tell. You don't talk about compensation back then. Talk about what you think and kind of the unspoken rules in the culture. And I said, well, you know, she did. And we came at the same time, our background, same similar experience. But she's a white female, she's making this. I'm a Black female and I'm making this. And I don't see that as fair and equitable at all. And so through the conversations, and I learned to, at that point, to advocate for myself.

Yes.

Elevate my voice because who else is going to do it for me, right? And eventually it got corrected. The situation was corrected. But yeah, that was the biggest lesson for me as far as adversity. That told me that you have to speak up for yourself. You have to kind of be aware of what's going on around you and understand that sometimes systems aren't fair and unbiased.

Wow, that is really powerful. How are you then different today because of this experience?

Well, I'm different today because I, I, I make sure that I'm aware.

I don't—

I never was the type of leader, especially in the corporate environment, that liked the corporate politics. I was aware of them. I knew that they were going on because you can't survive if you just walk naively into some of these environments.

Yes.

But, you know, I made sure that I was aware of what was going on. I made sure that I was on point as far as my skills, capabilities, experience, what I brought to the table.

Yeah. Excellent. Yes, ma'am.

Yes, I held, I held my own standard very high because I came from a household where I was told and it was drummed in my head Yes, you have to work twice as hard to get half as far.

Hmm.

And so I worked very, very hard. And to get to the level of where, where I was, but I was aware of what was going on around me. And I made sure that I was aware of it, not being consumed by it. Or assimilating to it.

Yes.

But being aware of it and, and acting accordingly.

Yeah, I feel like every Black child in America has been told, work twice as hard to get half as far. But that doesn't really make sense, does it? How did that make you feel? That's not fair.

Well, no, it's not fair, it's not equitable, and it's definitely, um, uh, double whammy because I'm a woman and I'm a woman of color. And so it's not fair, but I think like my father, many parents who were in— they were very much aware of what was happening from the standpoint of— think about what was happening, civil rights and all of the things that were happening. They knew what the world was like. They knew what it was. Going on in the United States. And so that's why they tried to prepare us as best they could, knowing that they were sending their children out into a world that wasn't fair, it wasn't equitable, it wasn't inclusive. And so they were doing what they could to prepare us. And so, you know, for me, I'm thankful for that upbringing. I'm thankful that my parents were very, very open about the world and the environment. I'm thankful for the experiences that I had growing up, because it helped to bring— prepare me for the person I am today and prepare me for the environments that I've been in. When you're the first and the only in certain rooms, you have to You have to be strong, you have to be aware, and you have to be the type of person who is going to speak up when you see things that are wrong.

That is so true. And how did these experiences kind of shape the legacy you are going to leave behind?

Oh, wow, Bob. I hope that I have instilled in my children that, um, some of what my, my parents told me, that the world is not fair and equitable. And, you know, I want them to understand that for my son being a Black man, that there are challenges that happen you know, you might get stopped by the police just being Black. So we didn't just have the talk when he was getting his license, it was the talk about what you do when you're pulled over, you know, hands on the wheel, don't make any movement. You know, it's a shame that we have to have these conversations with our sons, but we did, right? With my daughter, I taught her that, you know, as a Black woman, it's going to be extremely hard, it's going to be tough, But you need to be able to elevate your voice. You need to be able to speak up when you see that something is going on. Don't let people take advantage of you. And, um, wow. You know, so, so that same legacy that I want to leave for my children is the same legacy that I want to leave for young people and for people in general that are struggling with whatever they may be facing in their environment.

That is really powerful. We have our first question from the audience. Daniel from Midland, Florida says, Celeste, how do you personally coach leaders of color who discover a white colleague sitting next to you is earning significantly more, often multiple more?

Oh yeah, I've had that conversation a lot. And so the first thing that I tell the individual is you have a conversation with your manager. And everyone is entitled to a compensation assessment, a compensation review. And you simply just go to your manager and say, you know, I have reason to believe— you don't have to to narc on your colleague like I did and say, you know, look, I had this conversation and she told me she's making this and I'm making this. What's up with that? But you can have a conversation with your immediate manager or your HR business partner, but you should go to your manager first and say, you know, I really, I've been able to do X, Y, and Z. You've been very happy with my performance. You have called on me to do various different projects, initiatives. My performance has been very good. You've given me that feedback.

Yes.

And I'm assuming all of this is the case. I've taken on extra responsibilities. The scope of my role has expanded in the time that I've, that I've been in it. I would just like to have a compensation review on my salary compared with my peers? Yes, just ask that question. And, and, uh, and, and it'll be interesting, the conversation that you get back. But most managers, they're supposed to take those conversations to their HR business partner, um, and depending on the organization, um, an analysis should be done.

That is, that is really powerful. I think the, the first time when I first came to the US, I worked with the University of Alabama because we got, I think, more than half of our funding from the state. So all of the salaries were actually public. I didn't know that, but then I found out we had like a huge blue book at the library. You could go, everybody was employed by the university, their name and how much they get paid. So I went there and I looked, I was like, what in the world? I'm getting way, way underpaid. So I was happy until I saw that, but obviously I didn't stay there much longer. Where I was able to find people who actually valued my experience. But it's, uh, I don't know, the, the military isn't perfect, but I kind of like the, the way the US military has evolved through time. Of course, when, when Black, uh, started being soldiers, they got paid, I think it was about 30% less than their white counterpart for some reason. And on top of that, Blacks had to pay for their own uniform too. White soldiers didn't. But eventually that got fixed. And I think because of, um, Black men in the military Even when women got in, now everybody gets paid exactly the same. It's published, it's out there in the open. Depending on your rank, your grade, and the number of experience you have, everybody knows exactly how much money you make. Everybody makes exactly the same, which I think is very, very equitable. But it didn't happen overnight.

Yeah, yeah, fight for it. Yeah, and transparency is really important in, in a lot of these cases because when, when an organization is transparent with its policies and practices, people, you can start to build trust with your employees. Because that's a perfect example. It's transparent. If you're at this level, this is what your pay grade is, this experience, etc. And it's the same for everyone. So yeah, lessons could be learned from that.

Yeah. And also because I'm married to a woman, I have two daughters. I I don't understand why in 2026 women still makes about, what, 80 cents on the dollar. So why would my daughter get paid a lot less than their male counterpart in 2026? Wonder what is going on in this country.

It didn't crop up overnight. It's gonna take a long time to try to fix it, and it's unfortunate because— let me back up— it shouldn't take a long time to fix it. Because if you see and you do the analysis with your organization and see that there's inequities when it comes to pay, then how you rectify it is by closing the gap. You just close the gap. It's that simple of a rectification, how you rectify the challenge and the problem. The intervention is simple. The challenge is, the question is, why don't you? Because when you do your analysis, any organization that does an equity analysis, you see where the inequity is. You do it based on like jobs, like experience, like performance levels. All of that and following all of the legalities that you need to be following to be able to assess. Once you do that analysis and you see that there are gaps, then you close it. You close it by paying the people what they should be paid. You go in first, you open it up, and you give them money. The intervention is not complex.

Yes.

That's what you do. Now, the other piece of it is, and I say that tongue-in-cheek, but other interventions, and I always believe you have to take a multi-pronged approach because You don't want to be pouring water into a bucket that has a hole in it, right? Because it's just going to seep right out. Because if you just do sort of a one-time payment, that fixes it for that moment. But you have to look at, again, the systems. You look at the systems around. You look at what are your hiring practices when it comes to offers. How do you look at that when you bring someone in? How do you assess their—, how they should be paid. Yes. When, when you're doing promotions, when you're doing merit increases, when you're doing salary adjustments, when you're all throughout the process, when you're doing these things, do you have a sort of system that looks at, looks at the same thing, the same criteria to assess what someone should be paid? Do you have training for your managers and your talent acquisition advisors, your recruiters, your staffing consultants, um, your talent management people? You have training that talks about, especially hiring managers, around how do you take bias, understanding your own bias that you have and making sure it doesn't enter into decisions that you're making in the hiring process. So, you know, you take this multi-pronged approach to make sure that you're looking at the whole situation, the whole ecosystem, to make sure that the problem doesn't happen again. Because otherwise you're just throwing, you know, you're just throwing money and money at the problem when you need to be looking more holistically at it.

Wow. That is so powerful. Great segue for our next segment about building organizations where people thrive, which you talk about in your books as well. One thing you've said that really touched me is inclusion is not an initiative. You say it's leadership. What does that mean?

One of the things that used to irritate me, like someone taking their fingers on a chalkboard, was when I would get asked a question, so tell me about your diversity inclusion program. When someone asks you that question, I immediately understand their lack of understanding their ignorance, if you will, of what diversity, equity, and inclusion truly is. It's not a program. You have to look at it as a business imperative, a competitive advantage, a strategic leadership value add in a management strategy. You look at it from the standpoint of Diversity is simply differences in people, those you can see and those you can't see. Inclusion is what you have to surround those people with because they're so different. They have different skills, capabilities, mm-hmm, experiences, identities, cultures, life experiences. They have different obstacles and barriers that are getting in the way for them to be able to achieve whatever it is that they want to achieve. And so you have to take and surround them with a culture of inclusion so they feel valued, engaged, empowered to get to that collective purpose. Yes. In an organization. And that collective purpose is usually the mission or vision of that organization. Where equity comes in is when you meet those people where they are because they're different. They came from different starting points. Everybody didn't start at the starting line when, when the gun went off. Some people were at the 10-meter mark, some people were at the 20-meter mark, but you meet them where they are. You find out what they need to succeed, and you put acts of equity in place to get them to that collective purpose. And everyone's blueprint and journey is different based on who they are as a person and individual, and that's what I call Management 101, Leadership 101. You have to meet your team members where they are and give them what they need to succeed. Wow. From a, from a professional standpoint, from a performance standpoint, from a development standpoint, from a career aspiration standpoint. And so, um, from a business standpoint, I say that Marketing 101 is understanding your customer base.— and customers are very, very diverse. And so in order to understand and make sure that everyone is going to benefit from the product and the services that you provide, you have to understand the market, you have to understand the customers, and you do customer segmentation. So you look at the diversity of this— of the customer base and understand and do the assessment to say, is there one group of customers that isn't buying our product, that isn't taking advantage of our services, and why. So any business person who understands marketing and commercialization strategies understand they have to understand the diversity of their customer base. So the way that I approached it is you have to approach it as not diversity, equity, and inclusion on the outside banging on the walls of the organization trying to get in. You have to start from an inside-out approach. So when you are thinking about your people strategies, when you're thinking about your business strategies, you start first with making sure that you're not leaving anyone behind. Mm. You start first with thinking about it from an inclusion mindset. You start thinking about it from, how do I make sure that I'm not creating something that is inherently biased? So you do all of that and you start from the beginning when you are creating the strategy, developing the intervention, the initiative. So that's why I feel so strongly that it's not something that is a program or something that's very myopic. It is all-encompassing. And it's not a— leadership is not a soft skill. Remember back in the days, they had soft skills. They called leadership and management skills were soft skills and finance, IT, all of those other ones were the business skills, the hard skills. In this day and age, leadership, management, those are crucial skills that everyone needs to have if the organization is to succeed.

Wow. And didn't also the research clearly show that diverse teams outperform homogeneous teams, like, on every aspect? It's pretty amazing. So if you actually like money, you like to be profitable, that's actually the right thing to do, isn't it?

It's, it's like I said, if you want to be profitable, if you, if you want a successful business, you have to be able to integrate equitable practices. You have to be able to take bias out of the system. You have to understand different people across different dimensions of diversity. It's a competitive advantage. It's critical.

So true. And I think that really helps build trust as well. And that's how your employees really become— I don't want to say loyal, but they even go above and beyond when they know that management actually cares for them as an individual and doesn't have unfair practices like paying my colleague here more money just because they are, you know, white or male or whatever the case might be. So talking about trust, I think it's Peter Drucker, right, who said that culture eats strategy for breakfast. So as you build this culture, how do you build a culture of trust? Because it seems to me like trust is really the one essential thing you need to have in a high-performing organization. So how do leaders build trust across people with different backgrounds and perspective?

Well, let's go back to what I was talking about when I gave the definitions for diversity, equity, and inclusion. When you're having those conversations with people on your team and you're meeting with them, a lot of managers, they meet infrequently with their team. They'll have a staff meeting, once every other month or whatever, don't even meet one-on-one with their team members. So you have to meet one-on-one with your team members. Yes. You have to understand all of those differences, all that diversity that exists. You have to understand what are the— what are their skills, what are their capabilities, what are their strengths, what are their areas for development, what are their life experiences, what are those obstacles and those barriers that are getting in the way from them being able to be successful. Then you, as you learn all those things, then you put things in place to help them to be successful. You blow obstacles out of their way. And when you're doing that, as you're doing that, you're developing that trust because they're, they're looking at you and saying, wow, he sees me. Yes. He is listening to me. He understands the challenges that I face. He's willing to help me be successful. And when you do that, not only are you building a stronger employee, but that employee is starting to trust you. And there's— wow. And when they trust you, they're giving you that discretionary effort that you mentioned before. They are willing to take that hill with you. And in times of business and organizational volatility, you want employees that are going to say, I'll take that hill with you. Because how many times have you seen cartoons where the leader is getting ready to go up the hill and they're like, let's take this hill. And he's about halfway up, looks behind him, and they're all down still at the bottom of the hill just looking at him and say, yeah, you go on. Yes. Yes. They're like, no, I don't trust you. I don't trust you in good times, you think I'm going to trust you in challenging times?

So true. And I think for the— I have a large following from all of the branches of the military, and I think that's one thing the military does very, very well, right? We say mission first, but people, people always. That's probably why a young kid would be willing, right, to go to Iraq, Afghanistan, or put their life in danger for a mission so much bigger than themselves, especially the way they senior enlisted or their commanding officer really treats them and sees them as an individual and how they kind of fit into the big picture. Wow, that is, that is so, so powerful. So what would you advise a new CEO or a commanding officer, someone who takes charge of an organization, let's say tomorrow, what would be the first 3 things you would assess about the culture of their organization?

Well, the first thing I would say is what are the values, the fundamental values and standards of the organization? Yes. And usually they center around dignity, respect, adding value to our customers, et cetera. And then once we've had that conversation around the values and the standards, then you look at the policies, the procedures, and the practices to see if those values and standards are embodied.

Yes.

In those policies, procedures, and practices, how you pick leaders, how you promote people, how you develop business strategies for your customers. Is it embodied in there? And if there's a disconnect, if there is not alignment, then my conversation with that CEO is you have a problem. Yes, because you're, you're not literally— you're not walking the talk. And so then it becomes an assessment to say where the gaps are, and then how do you close those gaps.

Wow, powerful. So powerful. Yeah, I speak about it every time, uh, every year. And when I talk to C-level executives, one thing I ask them is, what are the core values of your own organization? Most of them have an idea, but they have no idea specifically what those values are. And I think that's a big problem. You cannot be a CEO, CISO, or CIO, and you have no idea what the specific core values for your organizations are, because in my opinion, the way you lead your organization or your function ought to be completely aligned with those values that you say your organization stands for. And if you don't even know what those values are, they're just kind of, oh, let me check the website, or I have an idea of what they might be. That is a problem. I know in the military, it's really drilled into us. It's almost like we get brainwashed. Like for me, As a US sailor, my core values wake me up any time of the day or morning. It's like honor, courage, commitment. It's drilled into me. That's who we are. That's what we stand for. That's how we live. And that's how we do everything that we do. And that really makes a huge difference in my opinion. That's powerful.

All right. So, you know why another reason why it's powerful, Bob, is, you know, I was the leader of manufacturing division for years and It's important that not only the CEO and the executive team know it, but the employees have to know it. The managers have to know it. The leaders have to know it. Because when you're sitting on third shift in a manufacturing environment or plant and the infrastructure, the leaders aren't around, and it's just you and your team sitting on third shift, 3:00 in the morning. Something happens, if you don't understand those core values and if they aren't penetrating into the policies, the practices, procedures, the leadership behaviors, the management protocols, if they're not embedded in there, that manager at 3 o'clock in the morning, what are they going to do? Right? When a situation arises. That's why it's so core that everybody understands those values and those standards and that they live through the policies and practices of your organization, because it's what people do when people aren't looking that counts. That is so powerful.

It reminds me of JFK, right, when he had that vision about us going to the moon, which was just transformative. But I think he went to visit NASA and there was a janitor. People would say, "Oh, a janitor, your job is to clean toilets or whatever." But it's like, "Okay, what do you do here?" And he told the president, "My job is to take the next man to the moon. As a janitor, that was his mission at NASA. That was quite impressive. Now, all the way from the CEO, all the way down to the lowest-ranked individual in your organization, when everybody is aligned and they all move in the same direction, I mean, that's really power, isn't it? Okay, we do have to talk about your book. I could talk with you for hours and hours, but I have to talk. We have been talking about my book. Yeah, The Truth About Equity. We need to talk about that. Why did this book have to be Written?

Well, I felt that the book needed to be written because, you know, we had this rise of social activism we had, you know, in 2020. And history has shown us that when there's a rise of social activism, a period of that, the civil rights movement, the women's suffrage movement, the Stonewall movement, when there is a rise in activism the pendulum swings the following years into a rise of conservatism. History has shown this. It's just up and down, ebbs and flows, pendulum swinging back and forth. And so in 2020, with the murder of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, with the pandemic forcing us to be still, with all of the companies and organizations and institutions saying that they were behind and rising in solidarity. We saw all of this, much of which, many of which, arguably much performative in nature. But then we started to see that pendulum swinging, right? And so even as early as 2022, it just started swinging. And then 2023, Roe v. Wade was reduced— was reversed. And you just started seeing things. And so for me, writing this book, I started to see the pendulum swinging back. And then it just sort of pounded back in 2024, 2025. I felt that it was important to write it because there was a lot of misinformation, a lot of strategic disinformation that was out there in the stratosphere about what people thought equity was. Yes. And in my first book, I specifically talked only about diversity and inclusion. And I, and I actually stated in the book that I was not going to talk about equity because at the time, people were still trying to understand diversity and inclusion and how they fit into it. And, um, and so, you know, here comes the time a few years later, it's like, okay, Celeste, you said you weren't going to talk about equity in your first book. When are you going to talk about equity? Yes. And what is it? And why is it so important? And so when all of this was happening, it sort of became the perfect storm for— I got to get the voice of reason out here. I have to let people know what it is, what it isn't, and they need to understand that when it's done correctly, it is a benefit for everyone.

Everyone, including white male Christian heterosexual folks. But it's, uh, incredible. I really like what you said about the pendulum because it looks like electing the first African American president is really what gave us the complete total opposite, which is President Trump now. And as of January 2025, last year, it seems like DEI has become a 4-letter word for most of corporate America. It was really amazing to me to see the transformation, just the change almost like on the drop of a dime. All this space, like you said, it was, I guess, just performative. It didn't mean any of that after 2020 about how they were for diversity, equity, and inclusion. And then all of a sudden, just like that, their core values are no longer core. They no longer count. So that was very interesting to see. But I guess one question I have for you before we even go into what the definition of equity is and what the misinformation people have, definitely a huge misinformation right now, because I hear people say, oh, you are a DEI hire just because you're Black or a woman. And they don't even look at your qualification. I guess one question I have for you is, it seems to me like it takes a lot of courage for somebody like you to be speaking up and to kind of set the record straight. Aren't you afraid that the environment, the trend in society is completely against what you are standing for? What you're standing for might be true and it might be just, but it's not what America wants to hear right now. Doesn't that scare you a little bit?

You know, I'm, I'm a realist and a pragmatic person. And, and I'm also, when I say a realist, I know what is real, and what is performative, and what is essentially kind of smoke and mirrors. And The reason why I left the organization in the role that I had was— and I laughed when people were asking me, like, why are you leaving? Why are you doing this? And I said, because I have to take this fight to the streets. I had a lot of autonomy in the role that I had in the organization that I had, but I was still an officer of the organization. And the messages that I felt that needed to be out there needed to come from a voice that was unencumbered. Yes. So that's the reason, one of the reasons why I want to create a world where my children, my children's children can, can enter into a workplace and environment and not fear and not be marginalized. And truly be valued for what they bring to the table, their entire dimension, who they are, their entire dimension, their functional skills and capabilities, as well as their cultural experiences as well. And so for me, I said I'm a woman of faith, and so I have on the full armor of God with me. And so this is it. It was more than a job for me. It was my calling. It was my purpose. And so I'm simply living in my purpose right now and speaking with people and spreading the word that is very important. And so when I talk about realism, people that understand the work of diversity, equity, and inclusion understand that it can't be stopped. Yes. They understand that diversity is simply differences in people. They understand that they have to have a culture of inclusion where everyone feels like they have a sense of belonging because that's how they're going to get the optimal performance out of their employees. Yes. They have to understand, and they understand, and they know because they've been doing it, those acts of equity. They've been studying their customer base. They've been putting marketing strategies together that are targeted towards Black people and Latino people and Asian people and LGBTQ+ people. Mm-hmm. They've been doing this work all along. They know it creates a competitive advantage. And so the work hasn't stopped, which is what is what it— because that's good clickbait. You know, that's good clickbait for, for media, for different things. And so people need to understand that share— in these shareholder meetings of these Fortune 500 companies, these proxy statements, these proxy and these proposals come up about we need to do away with diversity, equity, inclusion, you need— your company needs to do that. They've been voted down 99%, 98%, voted down by the shareholders. Wow. Company after company after company after company. So the shareholders know what's up. Wow. The senior leaders understand what's up. Yes. They can call it something different. They can hide underneath this umbrella or this tent so they're not in the crosshairs of what's happening and not targeted, but they know they have to do the work. And so at the other end of this pendulum, because the pendulum is going to swing again. Everyone will come out of the shadows and start saying, oh, we'll have the same— the same companies that were performative, they'll be performative again. The companies that were continuing to do the work, they might get a little bit more vocal again and get a little bit more courage. And those companies that still stayed the course courageous, still talking about it, um, will, will come out as winners as well. So, um, I, you know, I just, I just, I know the pendulum is going to continue to swing. History has taught us that. And, and I want to continue the work that I'm doing because this is me living in my purpose.

Wow. Because, I mean, the way it felt like, it's almost like your own government coming against you, right? And you said the word courage earlier. Where do you think your courage comes from?

Oh, gosh. Well, it comes from my parents, first of all, the combination of their leadership, my upbringing. You don't grow up in a household with 4 siblings and you're the next to the youngest without having courage. Otherwise, you don't eat when the food comes on the table. Yes. So my environment that I grew up in was such that I had that courage. Being a student athlete, I think. Yes. Playing sports helped me to develop courage as well. That's powerful. And just coming You know, coming up as a kid at 17 and spending those formative years in Kentucky, in the South, gave me courage. Yes. So I think just throughout my walk of life, each environment that I was in, I became a little bit more courageous.

Wow, that is powerful. And for all of the people who are listening live, right now, what would you tell them to encourage them to keep doing the work? Now, like we've said, diversity, equity, inclusion, that's going to make your team a lot more performant. I mean, the science is extremely clear about that, and it's very good for all of the people, all of them who are working on your team. What would you advise all of the young leaders listening, encourage them to do the right thing? Because I think everybody knows what's right. Looks like. But I think a lot of people are just scared. What would you tell them to encourage them?

Well, the first thing I would say is I call these my 3 stays. First thing is stay relevant. So stay relevant as far as your skills, your capabilities. But then also— excuse me— but also stay relevant about what's happening. Externally in the political, economic, um, time frame. Excuse me. Stay relevant about what's happening externally so you know what's happening from a political, economic standpoint, a social standpoint. Yes. So stay relevant, stay supportive of each other, reach out to each other, help each other. Hey sis, how you doing? Are you doing okay? Yes. I saw what happened in the meeting. You want to talk about it. Stay supportive of each other is really, really important. And then the last thing, stay in the fight. You can't give up. I know the times are tough, the times are hard, but you got to keep going, got to keep fighting. And if you're not going to fight for yourself, fight for the thousands and thousands of people who haven't felt empowered to elevate their own voices. They haven't felt that encouragement yet. So speak up and stay in the fight. That's what's so important. Stay relevant, stay supportive, and stay in the fight.

Wow, that is powerful. One thing that jumps in your book too is the analogy you make between fence and rocks. Can you explain?

Mawubadja. Um, you know, we've all seen that, that, um, that, uh, illustration, that cartoon where it has 3 individuals are standing on one rock and they're facing a fence. The person on the right can't see over the fence at all. Yeah. The person in the middle can barely see over the fence. The person on the left can clearly see over the fence. In the second illustration The person on the right has been given 2 additional rocks. They can see over the fence now. The person in the middle has been given 1 additional rock. They can see over the fence. And so those rocks are acts of equity in my analogy. Those rocks are acts of equity that have been given to them so they can see over the fence, so they can have access to opportunities that the person that was on the 1 rock in both illustrations they could see over the fence. And in my analogy, the fence are what I call the isms— racism, sexism, ableism, ageism, homophobia, all of those things that they didn't crop up overnight. And so it's going to take a longer-term strategy to kind of pull them away from structures and systems, et cetera. And so we We are doing the acts of equity. And what's happening is those acts of equity are causing disruptions in organizations, in society, in universities. Because the person who was standing on one rock in both illustrations, they're looking to their right and they're saying, well, you have three rocks, you have two rocks, and I only have one. That's not fair. I'm being left behind. What's going on here? Why do they get those? And they don't realize that the fence is there because they've always been able to see over it. They don't realize how the fence— how those behaviors manifest themselves to his colleagues to the right. They don't understand how some of the marginalization, being skipped over, all of the things that happen to his colleagues to the right, they don't understand that that's happening. So while we're doing this work, what we have to do is, yes, we have to put the acts of equity in place, we have to put the rocks in place, we have to also simultaneously tear down the fence because we have to do the longer-term strategy as well. And then we also have to have conversations and dialogue with that individual who was standing on one rock in both illustrations. Because it's not our job to teach them, per se. But we need to provide them with resources so they can understand that the fence is there, how it manifests itself to this colleague to the right. And then not just so he gets it intellectually, but getting him to be active allies, getting them to be active allies. Get in the boat, grab an oar, and help us to row up the river. Because we need everyone, or as many people as possible, to help us to create the culture that we want to see, which is that third illustration where the rocks are gone. We don't need the Acts of Equity because we've torn down the fence. We've torn away the institutional biases and isms. And we've had conversations with that individual. And so the rocks are gone, the fence is torn down, and everybody benefits. Everyone can see the beautiful mountains ahead. Even the person that was standing on one rock that could see over the fence, with the fence gone, his vision is much more widened because he can see up, he can see down, he can see everything now.

Wow, that's powerful. Yeah, because I mean, when you think about it, uh, July 4th is coming, and, uh, America is a country of contradiction. No, because our Declaration of Independence, it was so, uh, wonderful. I mean, it was really world-changing when you say all men are created equal, but it was so aspirational though, because definitely Black people were not included. Even women were not included, only white male. And, uh, uh, so I think it's very easy to just to see how it's been systemic from the very beginning. But no, thank God there's been a lot of, uh, progress. But, but I guess one, one phrase that keeps Coming at me when I read your book is really everyone wins when we get equity right. And I think one of the lies right now is if you keep promoting qualified women and people of color, therefore you are discriminating against white Christian heterosexual male, which is really not the case. Can you expand on what that really mean? I think that's, to me, it's almost like really the the center of the message that you are saying. If you do get this equity thing right, everybody, including white men, are going to win too. Can you expand on that?

Yeah, so, you know, in my analogy where the individual with one rock, you know, they look to their right and they say, well, you have three rocks, you have two rocks, that's not fair. That's one of the myths of equity, that you're giving preferential treatment to one group over another. And that individual, they had one rock in the first illustration, they had the same rock in the second illustration. They didn't lose anything, not one thing. They could see over the fence. Their colleagues couldn't see over the fence. They didn't know it, but they just saw the rocks. And so that's one of the myths about equity. It isn't about giving preferential treatment of one group over another. That's not what it's about. Um, instead of looking at it, you know, looking at it from the standpoint of it's a pie and I need my piece of the pie, you need to be looking at it like it's a bar chart and the bars can go up infinite, you know, in, you know, infinitely. They can— it can be— there's so much opportunity. Yes. Um, that there you have to look at it from that perspective. And then the second thing, to your point about, well, you were just hired because you're a woman or because you're a person of color or because you're in the LGBTQ+ community. First of all, that's illegal. That was established back in the 1960s where you can't hire someone based on their race and other protected classes. So the law is the law that hasn't changed. In, in, in decades and decades of, of that being in place. Where it's changed a little bit now is where, where people think because you are a woman, you were hired because they're doing this diversity thing. And the, the, that comes from a fundamental inaccurate belief that women and people in those protected classes are not intelligent, do not have skills and capabilities, are not able to perform the role. Yes. And, and that's where the whole thing, the whole house of cards falls down. Because recruiters, their job is to find qualified candidates to bring to the hiring manager. They're not doing their job if they do that. When the hiring manager tells them what skills, what capabilities they need for the job, what experiences they need, how many years of experience, etc., whether they need education, whether they don't. When they're telling them all of this, the recruiter knows very importantly that those skills and capabilities and experiences can be embodied in a variety of different identities. Yes. And that hiring manager, in their mind, when the recruiter tells them, thank you, got it, understand what you're looking for, and I'll make sure I bring you a diverse slate of candidates for you to choose from. And all of a sudden the manager says, well, wait a minute, I want to make sure they're qualified. The question, the next question is, well, why did you feel a need to say that when I said I'm going to make sure I bring you a diverse set of candidates? Wow. In his mind, or in her mind, if you bring me diversity in, in my candidates, if you bring me people of color or women or this or that, they are not as qualified, they're not as smart, they're not as intelligent, they're not as capable as those that are in the majority. And so that fundamental That's powerful. Inaccurate belief is where all that comes from. But the recruiter knows that I can get all of those things that you need embodied in a variety of different identities. And so that's what we need to make sure that people understand. It is illegal to hire somebody based on what they look like or how they identify. That's the law. That's been the law since the 1960s. Wow. And it's still the law. You need to know that you need to check yourself and your bias that anyone who doesn't look like you is inferior to you. Yes.

That is so, so powerful. I'm sorry, it looks like we've already gone 10 minutes over. Can we stay 5 more minutes? Can we, or do you have to go? Pardon? Can we stay 5 more minutes? Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Because I think your book is so important. Again, everybody, I want everybody to get a copy of this life-changing book. I think it's right on time. The Truth About Equity: What It Really Is, What It Isn't, and Why Everyone Wins When We Get It Right. What was one of the most challenging chapters you had to write?

Um, I wanted to make it a global chapter— a chapter— a book. I wanted it to not just be an indictment in, you know, in the United States, because every country back in 2020 I think it was '24. No. Yes, 2024. There were over 80 countries that were having elections. And that was sort of unprecedented in that time, from what I understand. And in those elections, a majority of the person who won those elections for the leaders of those countries was in a conservative party. Yes. So it wasn't just a US thing. This was a worldwide thing that we were seeing. And so, you know, the issue of immigration, the issue of colorism, the issue of colonization, all of those issues, they didn't— they weren't born in the United States. They came, you know, they've been around for millenniums. So we— I felt that, you know, from that standpoint, we need to— everybody needs to understand that This book is important. Leadership is important. Organizational— organizations understanding the importance of equity, where it fits in, how it fits in, is just extremely important.

Hmm, I like that. And if there was one— this is gonna be my final question about the book— if there was one message you wanted everyone to take, only one lesson from your book, what would it be?

That the work that is done in diversity, equity, and inclusion, saying that it is going away, trying to prevent it, is like trying to prevent the waves from hitting the shore. You just can't do it.

It's just not, it's not possible. Yes. Wow, powerful. Okay, uh, we are coming toward the end of the show now. What can my audience do to give value back to you? Dr. Wilson?

Well, you can go to my website, connect with me there at crwdiversity.com. You can engage with me, connect with me on LinkedIn.

And also on your website, looks like you have a model framework people could get access to. Is that correct?

Yes, the Equity in Action model. It is something that is available for managers. You can access it. On my website. It's just a simple series of mini modules. They're only about 15-20 minutes each, and they're available for just a nominal price. But it helps you to take equity from being an idea to putting it in action. Wow. And what you need to do to be a better manager leveraging equity. Can you also tell us about your nonprofit?

I'm really excited about that because I studied biology and chemistry. Almost got a PhD in microbiology.

Can you tell us about STEM? Yes, Destination STEM is a nonprofit my daughter Christina, my son Stephen, and I started 5 years ago. Wow. And it's basically a nonprofit to get students of color and those in need interested in STEM-related fields— science, technology, engineering, and mathematics. We provide learning resources, we provide leadership series, we provide scholarships for students that are going to be pursuing STEM-related degrees. So it's something that is near and dear to my heart. Again, something that continues to help me to walk in my purpose. And check it out. You know, we can— we need people to help us. Donate would be great. Volunteer, just reach out. You can also go to that one, it's destinationstem.org. Fantastic.

And when we click on the donate sign so they can give money, I assume it's a 501, so it's tax-exempt as well. Yes, 501. I love it. And for the people who follow the podcast, they know I really believe in the power of $5, uh, because believe it or not, we raised over $1 million for Ukraine when the war first started. All I asked for my people is to give $5 only. It wasn't just us, it was a bunch of other people. But initially the goal was $1 million, and we gave so much money that they increased it to $2 million.

I think they ended up raising like $2,200,000 for the people of, uh, tell them that this money, all of it goes towards scholarships and programs and things like that. And we were able to— we celebrate every year at our annual fundraising banquet where we celebrate our scholars. We were able to double the amount of scholarships last year due to companies donating and investing in us. So we want to be able to do that next year as well. So yes, $5, $10, please, please go to destinationstem.org and donate, donate, donate. We really could use your help.

And if somebody wanted to hire you for some consulting as a diversity, equity, so forth, work, how do they reach out to you?

You can reach out to me at my website, crwdiversity.com, and contact me, and it comes directly into my email box, and we can definitely connect from that standpoint. I'd love to hear from you.

All right, before we end, is there a question I should have asked you I didn't get a chance to ask?

Anything else you wanted to share today? Oh my gosh, no, Bob. This has been a great conversation. I just, I loved it. I loved it. I loved it.

Thank you. Fantastic. So before we end, I want to do a quick, I like to do the lightning round. So I'm going to ask a question and I want you to answer as quickly as you can and don't take too much time thinking. Okay. So the question I want to ask, let me, okay, here we go. What is leadership?

Leadership is one word. I'll say this: leadership is not for the faint of heart.

Okay, I like that. Success.

Success is— success is in the eye of the beholder, but it's not what you might think it might be for you. It might be different for somebody else.

Okay, one book that you didn't write that every leader should read?

Uh, Oh, the book by, uh, the latest book by David Glasgow and Kenji Yoshino. Yes, yes, the title is escaping me, but Kenji is a friend of mine, David is a friend of mine, and they always write spectacular books. But this one helps to guide you in this time now about the legality.

Equality Wins, I, I believe. Yeah, yeah. And by the way, we do have a digital book bookshelf. So I'm gonna make sure to add that there. I started last May with just 3 books. We have more than 500 books now. It's just—

Is mine on there? Yes.

Everybody I interview, yes. Your book, I actually have different shelf. One, you are one of the podcast offer, you are on the current list. It's only about 100 books I keep there. And then you are in the big list, which has more than 500. Oh, yes. Wow. Absolutely. And so what is one leadership habit you never compromise on? You will do that no matter what.

Being a servant leader. If I won't agree to do it myself, how can I ask somebody else to do it? Okay, if I can't do it myself. Powerful.

Most influential mentor? My parents. Yes. Okay, best career advice you have ever received? Don't assimilate, accelerate. Mm, I like that. All right, as we come to a close, I think the, uh, question I want to ask you is, if America and our organization truly got equity right, like you talk about in your book, what kind of future would we create together?

I think we would create a future like that third illustration where the rocks are gone, We don't need the acts of equity. The fence is gone. Those systemic issues are gone, and everyone can see the mountains ahead, and everyone can be assessed on, as Martin Luther King Jr. said, be assessed on the content of their character, not by the color of their skin.

Wow, that's the organization I want to work for. That's the America I want to see. Thank you so much, Alyssa. I really appreciate you being on the show. And the last question I ask every guest, if you can First, one thing you feel optimistic about these days.

I feel hope that this next generation— I talk to a lot of universities and university students and high school students, and they give me hope because they see what's important. They understand the importance of inclusion and equity. They see that they're the most diverse generation ever in the history of the world. So, um, that gives me hope. They give me hope.

Yes, indeed. Those are my daughters, Naomi and Zoe. They give me a lot of hope for what America could be. And, uh, one word that represents our shared experience on this podcast, and this is the last question: engaging.

Engaging.

I am so, so grateful and privileged that you finally are here, Celeste Warren, TEDx speaker. And Diversity Officer Extraordinaire. So I'm— you're really doing God's work and keep doing it. You are really making a difference, such a great encouragement and inspiration. Thank you so much for being here today, really appreciate that.

Thank you for the invitation, Bob.

All right, everybody, this is one for the book. Again, let's support Celeste and her work. Get a copy of The Truth About Equity. It's available everywhere books are sold. I would also say to get a copy of her previous book, How to Be a Diversity and Inclusion Ambassador, and follow her on LinkedIn and contact her if you want her to be a consultant for your organization and also support her nonprofit, right? DestinationSTEM.org. And for me as a military man, I really feel like STEM is really a national security issue, right? For some reason in America, less and less people really get into those hard sciences, and I think we absolutely have to compete. We have to compete, you know, against China and Japan and all of those other countries. For example, when I was a student at the University of Alabama, all of the hard sciences, whether it's physics, biology, chemistry, most of the people there were Asian. You hardly found a single American in those schools. It's like, that's not right. English is good, yeah, music and all of this thing, business, nothing wrong with that, but we do need more and more people in the STEM field, and I think it's so critical. That's part of the reason why since I was a junior officer, I always volunteered to go to the STEM science— what do you call them? Science research— where the science fair, right? Students have project, and many times I would represent the Office of Naval Research and give some of the student award and really encourage them to be in science. Because if you think about it, even GPS, right, that has completely transformed the world. The Navy was the one who came up with that, and now it's really benefiting the entire world. So we need more and more people to really get into those sciences. I'm a huge, huge, huge fan. So please support destinationstem.org. All I'm asking for you to do, to just give $5. And if everybody who follows this podcast, about 66,000 of you, do that, we could raise over $300,000. That's pretty amazing. And $5 is only what, the price of a Starbucks cup of coffee and you could really, really make a difference in the life of a child who could maybe eventually develop the next emerging tech, who knows? All right. So that's all I have for now. Thank you so much for watching. And in a couple of hours, I'm going to be speaking with C.F. Jackson. We're going to be talking from dreamer to media mogul, building a legacy for TV, and storytelling. I'm so excited about that. And I should have another interview tomorrow. I will let you know later today on LinkedIn who that's gonna be. And this weekend, I know Saturday I don't have an interview, but I'm gonna be going back to the book of Proverbs. We're gonna be studying Proverbs chapter 26. This is not a religious podcast. It's about the ancient wisdom and leadership lesson from a book written more than 2,000 years ago that I believe is still relevant today. Because those leadership principles are, I believe, eternal and universal. So looking forward to that. All right, that's all I have planned for you today. I'm gonna play another short clip about our illustrious speaker today. And again, I want everybody to support her, but thank you so much for watching. And I hope to see you in a couple of hours when we speak with C.F. Jackson. Bye for now.

I wanted to talk a little bit about equity, what it is, what it isn't, and why everyone wins if we get it right. Equity is Leadership 101, Management 101, Marketing 101. It's all of those things that make up a good a good marketing strategy, a good leader, and a good manager. But what equity isn't— it isn't preferential treatment. It's being able to give someone what they need in order to thrive. I don't believe that our diversity inclusion strategies were designed to leave white cisgen men behind. I just don't believe that. And the reason why is because we've tried to make sure that it has been inclusive of everyone. And I just don't feel that anyone that's doing the job well had that intention in mind, had that strategy in mind, didn't develop these strategies to say, well, let's just leave them behind because they're already in the system. The, the positions of power because we knew we wouldn't succeed if we left anyone behind. You know, some folks want to say that we should have a meritocracy. I believe we should have a meritocracy as long as we give everyone what they need to be successful, as long as we give everyone access to equal opportunities, as long as we're putting together equitable and fair practices for everyone. So we truly can judge people by the content of their character. Some of us start at the starting line, some start at the 20-meter line, and some aren't even out of the locker room. That's life. Diversity is differences, differences in people, those you can see and those you can't see. You have to surround them with a culture of inclusion so you're able to leverage those differences to a collective purpose. Equity is not just a policy or a program. It is deeply personal for a lot of us. It's more important than ever now to approach things thoughtfully and strategically to make progress in today's complex environment. Progress may be slow, but it's built one person, one action, and one moment of courage at a time.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and