S5:E19🎙️LIVE with COL Josh Hartzell, MD, U.S. Army (Ret.) 🇺🇸⚕️ (Multi Tracks Audio)

Hi, I'm John Maxwell. When the top companies in the world are looking for for trainers, speakers, and coaches, there's one name that stands above the rest, and that's Maxwell Leadership. Our certified team members have gotten proven results for companies all over the globe, and our reputation, I'm proud to say, is second to none. Some of our members have risen to the top of their profession, including the one you're going to meet today. I proudly introduce you to my friend, Bob Fabien Zinga.

Welcome to the Leadership Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ, where we help you lead with purpose and succeed with impact. If you're ready to grow into the kind of leader others want to follow, this podcast is for you. If you're determined to elevate your success and leave a lasting legacy, this podcast is for you. As my mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell reminds us, everything rises and falls on leadership. Our goal is simple: to inspire you, challenge you, and equip you with insights that can transform the trajectory of your leadership journey. Welcome aboard to another episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast with Coach BZ.

When I think about my career, I got so much out of being a Military Medical Corps officer. Obviously, I got college and med school, but what I really got was trained how to be an effective leader. And I think those skills, when I look back over the course of my career, like, those skills that I learned have really set me up to do some of the other things that I've done. And even if you don't go into different leadership roles or positions, those skills are going to allow you to excel clinically., they're going to allow you to work really well with your nursing staff. They're going to allow you to work well with support staff. It's just going to help amplify your career.

All right, ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for watching the Leadership and Success Podcast live on LinkedIn and YouTube. So I'm reminded to go ahead and do our moment of gratitude. That's something we do every single time we meet. And we want to be grateful because in the US military, about 21 service members commit suicide every single day. And I believe it's impossible to be suicidal and be grateful at the same time. So if you would, as is our custom here, maybe close your eyes and Put yourself in your happy place and think about what you are grateful for right now. I think I'm really grateful for the people who have gone before me, the men and women in uniform on whose shoulders I stand. There would never be a Commander Zinga or a Seaman Zinga for that matter if I didn't really stand on the shoulders of heroes, people who selflessly decided to really dedicate their life for their country and for their fellow men. It's really incredible in the military how you are willing to, if you have to give your life for the sailor to your right or to your left, just that dedication to country and our oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. It is just so awesome and I am so grateful. For that. All right. So please let me know where you are joining us from, what city, what state, which country if you are outside of the United States. And also, if you have a question for my guest, please type it in the chat. All right. Let me see if I can properly introduce our guest today. Today we have great pleasure and honor of welcoming Colonel Josh Hartzell. A US Army retiree, is an MD, a combat-tested physician leader, bestselling author, professor of medicine, and executive coach who spent 25 years in US Army medicine, including deployment to Afghanistan with the 82nd Airborne Division. He has served as a program director for internal medicine at Walter Reed, assistant dean and senior faculty leader at Uniformed Services University, and a national thought leader in leadership development. Faculty development, and caring-centered leadership. Colonel Josh Atzel is also the author of the Amazon number one bestselling book, A Prescription for Caring in Healthcare Leadership, and a powerful voice reminding us that caring is not soft, it is strategic. So ladies and gentlemen, please help me welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast, Colonel Joshua Atzel. Good morning. Colonel, how are you doing today, sir?

I'm great, Coach BZ. It's terrific to be here with you.

Fantastic. Thank you so much. Maybe to, to get started, sir, first you do have a disclaimer.

Yeah, so just a disclaimer, I still work for the US government, so just a reminder, these are my opinions and assertions and not those of the official policy of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Uniformed Services University, or the Department of War.

And as everybody in the audience knows, uh, same disclaimer for me. All right, having done that out of the way, uh, what is one thing you are grateful for today, sir?

Yeah, well, I was listening to your introduction and I definitely agree with you. I'm grateful for all the people who have come before me and those who serve. I've been thinking about this recently, and for me, I have two kids who are sort of middle school and high school, and it's their teachers. I'm incredibly grateful for the work that their teachers do. I mean, every day they come home and they tell me stories about things they're learning, or more importantly, like, just interactions they have with their teachers. And, you know, what an important and special role that our teachers have at every level. And I don't think they always get that, you know, sort of recognition and thanks. So I'm gonna say I'm really grateful for teachers.

Wow, that is, uh, powerful. And also, sir, is there something about you that most people may not know when they first meet you?

Oh, that they don't know about me? Well, there's probably lots they don't know about me. Uh, I guess maybe one thing that's, you know, interesting that comes up a lot, and, and I'll sort of maybe say this, is, you know, I was in the Army for a long time. I was a colonel, and I think people feel like, oh, he's an Army colonel, he's probably this like very serious, uh, you know, sort of person. And that's not really me. I mean, I'm serious at times, but I'm generally pretty lighthearted and easygoing. And I've actually had people say like, oh, like, you're not what I expected. Um, yeah, being, uh, sort of lighthearted and easygoing.

Well, that is wonderful. Definitely on different, uh, types of, uh, Leadership, I don't know, I've been in the Navy for about 21 years now. I've seen kind of the shift, how things have changed in my own experience. I don't know if it's across the entire military, but 21 years ago, there was a lot more on the command and control. I'm the boss, you know, I am in charge. And now it's more like, you know, influencing people and you don't have to be loud. You can just be very clear and caring for your sailor and really get the job done. At least that's the shift I have. I have seen throughout my Navy career so far. So maybe, sir, you can tell us briefly how you got to become a combat-tested physician leader and also a best-selling author.

Yeah, long, long story. I'll kind of give you the short version. You know, my— I grew up in a really small town in northwest Pennsylvania, and That sort of led me to Army ROTC, or Reserve Officer Training Corps, when I went to college. Um, twofold. One is it was a way to pay for my education, but secondly, I really had an interest in history and in particular the military, and that sort of drew me to this idea of serving in the Army. And I also recognized that if I did that, it was, it was going to give me opportunities I don't want to be like a commercial, but give me opportunities to go places and do different things. And I was looking for that. So that put me into my early training in college. And then when I was thinking about medical schools, I had really appreciated what I had learned as an ROTC cadet and looked at the Uniformed Services University, which seemed like a natural extension. That's the United States military sort of medical school.

Yes.

And fortunately, I got accepted there. And, you know, tremendous school. So many really remarkable educators who care deeply about our mission. Right. Because all of our graduates are going to go serve in harm's way potentially. So I had a great schooling there. And then, you know, did my internal medicine and infectious disease training and over my career really focused on medical education.

Yes.

And within medical education, recognized over time that, uh, of all the things we do, leadership is certainly one of the most important. I mean, at the end of the day, we have to provide patient care, but to support the patient care, to support the people delivering the education, leadership is critical. And really developed an interest in, okay, how do we do this? How could we do it more effectively? And that sort of put me on this path to my own self-discovery about leadership, how to more effectively teach others. And to the book, as I was getting out of the military and transitioning to my current civilian role, I had some time to reflect and think about these ideas that I had sort of amassed over the last 20-plus years. So I feel like I do have, you know, sort of had a little bit of time as I was taking terminal leave and other things to be able to put together the book and most importantly share it with people so that, you know, we can all lead more effectively because, you know, every life we touch exponentially ripples throughout our organizations, our families, our communities.

Yes.

So yeah, I'm excited to see what the next step is.

Wow, that is really wonderful. I remember I was about 17 years old. I was at the University of Alabama. We had the ROTC program for both the Army and the Air Force. And I tried to join both because I wanted to become a better leader. Of course, they told me to go back because I was not a US citizen. I couldn't become an officer in the US military at the time. But After 9/11, I'm like, no, I think I really need to join the US military again. Same thing happened after I talked to all four branches, but at least I knew if I did decide to join, it would be the Navy or the Air Force. The Army and the Marines, I felt like you guys were just a little bit too crazy for me. But anyway, after I got my green card, then I came back and like they say, the rest is history. But sir, I guess looking over your career, before all of the titles like being Colonel, physician, professor, and all of that, who were you early in your career, and what moment shaped the leader you eventually became?

So for me, this, this really goes back to when I was in some ways growing up. I learned a lot from my parents just watching them. Yes. Um, and actually one of the, you know, as I was You know, you mentioned this question. One of the things I do when I'm helping other leaders think about their leadership is actually to do this exercise where you reflect on all the important people in your life and how they impacted your leadership development. So for me, that was my parents who were really just role models of taking care of people. So that idea of caring came from them. And then I, you know, I played sports when I was in high school. And those coaches I had were really not just sports coaches, but they were teaching me about leadership, accountability, feedback, how to inspire people, how to invest in people and help them get better. So those early coaches, you know, Darryl Jones, who lived in our community, was a former New York Yankee who had come back to our— Wow. —really small town to live and raise his family there. Tremendous guy, amazing leader, taught me a ton. And then once I got into ROTC, I just, over the course of my career, I really have felt blessed that, you know, at each stage I could sort of look at particular leaders and say, you know, he or she taught me this, he or she invested in me and helped me with this, which I think is important not only for me and my own growth, but it's a reminder to all of us that these interactions we have with the people we have the opportunity to lead, we are part of their leadership journey. And, you know, I mean, Bizzy, you have this amazing podcast where you get to amplify all these voices, but all of us have this day-to-day opportunity to invest in the people closest to us. And yes, yeah, I think it's critical to our ability to help develop leaders. Yeah.

And I think most people, when they think of leaders, we always, always think We think of positive role models, people who've really inspired us, but what about negative leaders? Because a few times, even in the Navy, maybe throughout my 21-year career, maybe only 2 or 3 at the most, CEOs I've had, I'm like, no, I will never be a CEO like that. This is the wrong kind of leadership ever. But have you ever had, I guess, people that maybe you worked for who led in some way or capacity and you were like, no, this is not the way to lead. That's not the right way to do it.

Yeah, let me give you a list of names. Yeah, it's also a really great question. So when— this is one of the other things I like to do when I'm teaching people about leadership is to watch everybody and ask yourself, what are the things that they're doing that are effective that I want to emulate? And what are the things that they're doing that I absolutely don't want to do? And I would say at every point of my career, there's been some leader that I've looked at and sort of said like, "Well, that's not effective. I don't want to do that." The other thing I remind people though about this is, look, no one shows up in the morning saying, "I want to be an ineffective leader." Yes. Right? I mean, like we all have, 99% of us have good intentions. And so even though I've had these sort of quote unquote role models who have led ineffectively, you know, I try to give them grace. And also remind, you know, to me, it's why leadership development is so important. So that, that we have less of those role models who are doing it ineffectively. Yes. But I've definitely seen, you know, that, and then you go back to the command and control style. I think that's one of the things I saw early in my career that You know, when people dictate to you or, you know, order you to do things or people treat you poorly and then expect you to, you know, be motivated, that doesn't motivate people. I think it really gets people to tune out. And I agree with you. I think we've seen a shift from that. But it, but it still exists. But that's probably the biggest thing I've seen is that that style of leadership is just ineffective.

Yeah, I guess on 21st century, and I shared with you, sir, in the green room before we got started, I had the great privilege of being the commanding officer for the Global Network Operations Security Center in Suffolk, and about two-thirds of my troops were like Gen Zs, and I was having a hard time motivating them initially. They definitely very different from Gen Xs and before. But anyway, I have two daughters and they're both Gen Z, and they really kind of coached me through how to motivate people from their generation. But yeah, I guess that's the thing with leadership, right? That's part of the reason why I have this podcast. It's not quite a science, but it's kind of like science and art. And it really depends on the circumstances, the culture, and the people you are leading because everybody's so different. Not everybody's motivated by the same exact thing and trying to to get that just right, I think, is a little bit— I don't want to say a mystery, but it can be a challenge. And I think the more you talk with leaders, that's again why I have this podcast. I have all types of voices. I think we can learn from each other and get a little bit better.

Anyway. Yeah. I mean, I think your point is, look, leadership is really hard. Yes. And there's no cookbook. I mean, I wrote a book on leadership, but there's no cookbook recipe for effective leaders. Having said that, I definitely think there are activities and behaviors that are generally effective. And part of our job as leaders is to assess the situation and then pick the right strategy for that situation. And the more sort of aware we are of different styles and approaches to leadership, we can do that. And the other point you mentioned, it's a science versus an art. And one of the things that we've been one working on at the medical school, but in other places is what is evidence-based leadership? Not just, well, this feels good, or I think it works, or I've watched somebody do it. Yes. But where have people actually studied particular leadership behaviors? And we have actual data that demonstrates that actually works. Yes. This works. And that's really to me. I mean, look, in medicine, we you know, talk about evidence-based medicine.

Yes.

You know, when you go to your doctor, I'm guessing most people want them to practice evidence-based medicine. Absolutely right. Well, we, we should expect the same of, of our leaders. Are you, are you practicing evidence-based leadership? Wow. What is the basis for what you're doing? That is powerful.

And also, like, on what you said, so it's almost like having a toolbox and as a leader, understanding which tool is going to be most effective for the situation I'm in. Right now. So hopefully, again, with this website, we are giving our people, our listener, plenty of tools to think about or at least consider. So, so you've served, uh, as a battalion sergeant with the world-renowned 82nd Airborne in Afghanistan. Uh, what did that experience teach you about leadership when the stakes are real and time is short? Yeah, so much.

Uh, first off, I would say in my entire Army career serving with the 82nd and having that combat patch is probably the thing I'm most proud of. Just an amazing group of human beings who dedicate so much to our country. Ooh, ah! Right? Just an honor to serve with them. The things I learned, a couple. One was humility. And part of that is, look, I'm a physician. I had ROTC. I had a fair amount of, military background, but I had never been deployed before. So I had to approach the situation with humility. And then I had a lot of people who I was deploying with who this was their second, third, fourth, right? Uh, and just being humble to listen to them and learn from them, but also recognizing that, you know, our enlisted, our noncommissioned officers bring amazing ideas to the table. And I think this lesson transcends to any organization. You know, your frontline people, the people doing the work and the people leading on the front lines, they have the best ideas and they know what the problems are and they often know how to solve them, but they need you as the leader to empower them. Humility was key. The other thing I learned while I was there was collaboration. And partly because of, you know, where we were at and what we were doing, but we were working with multiple different units, both US units of different services. We were working with foreign, you know, service members as well. We were working with the Afghan National Police and Afghan National Army. So just like the importance of collaboration, and then all that goes into that. Yes. Listening to people, respecting people's opinions. How do you deal with conflict within those things? So I would say the big things were humility and collaboration. And again, those, any environment, are gonna be really important.

Yeah, but I guess one thing that's very different with the military, because I am an information warfare commander in the Navy, so in the civilian side, I am a tech executive, but big difference for me between the Navy and the industry is, At times, in the Navy, when you make decision, people may actually die. Nothing like that's gonna happen at Google, Microsoft, or any of those Fortune 500 companies. So really, I think the stakes are extremely high. It's not just about making an extra dollar like most people in the industry, they wanna be first to go to market and money profitability drives a lot of the decision they make. But in the military, I mean, sometimes things get real and the decision you make could really impact the life of your fellow sailor, and that's, that's very, very serious stuff. Which, which gets me to asking you the, the question, sir. So in combat medicine, you don't have perfect information, right? How do great leaders make decisions when certainty is unavailable?

Yeah, and in some ways, like, this is the life of most physicians, right? Whether you're in combat or not, I mean, physicians are making decisions often without all the information they would like to have. And depending on the clinical nature of the decision, someone's life may be at stake. So it's, it's in some ways interesting to me when we think about physician decision-making and military medical corps officers or military officer decision-making, it's balancing risk. And to get to your question, I think the most effective leaders, what they do is they take all the information that is available, right? Recognizing— and this I think is a really critical thing— recognizing that we can't wait forever for more information. I've seen this happen. We sort of think about this paralysis by analysis where it's like, let me just get a little more information. Well, while you're waiting for that information, Yes, like things are happening. So I think the most effective leaders I saw at this, they would, they would, they would recon and get the data. They would analyze it, get input from other key leaders and stakeholders, and then make a decision. And once you make that decision, you know, our job is to carry it out. Yes. But then also assess the decision. Right. You make that decision based on your information. And as you get more information, yes, then you may have to adapt. And boy, nothing probably taught us this more than COVID. Yes. I mean, I was an— I'm an infectious disease physician. I mean, every day, essentially new information coming in. And, you know, we can, we can talk about were all the right decisions made or not. Well, yes. That's sort of life, right? You're never going to make all the right decisions. Are you willing to be humble enough then to go back and adjust? Yes. So I think it's that whole process of decision making, but it's really balancing risk, making a timely decision, like having that sort of bias for action, as General Mattis would say, and then ongoing monitoring and adjusting as necessary.

Yes, I was gonna say that takes us back to the lesson you learned with the 82nd Bomb leading with humility because you don't always have all of the answers and you have to be willing to say I was wrong or I can do better. Wow, very, very powerful. So what about, so you're really working as a combat physician, high-stakes environment, lives are on the line, and sometimes you don't have a lot of time to kind of build that trust within your your team. What do you think, sir, uh, are some of the things, uh, you had to do in order to build trust within your team when you have a short period of, of time and the stakes are so high?

Yeah, presence is probably the most important thing, like being present, uh, and, and that can look different depending on your environment. So, but like for me, presence was when I got to Fort Bragg I tried to work with our medics and our medical team every day because I knew we had, you know, a few weeks before we were going to get deployed. And not just work with them, but I did PT with them, right? We would go run or work out. And that continued while we were deployed. Right? It wasn't like, hey, Doc's gonna go do his thing somewhere else. Yes. But it was like, hey, Who wants to go to the gym? Or when we didn't have a gym, who wants to do push-ups in the aid station? Mm-hmm. Right. And then we would, as a group, do those things. So I think you build trust first and foremost by just being present. Secondly is get to know your people. Right. The more you can get to know them on a personal level. And again, you don't necessarily have time to sit down and have you know, campfire stories about it. But as you're working with them, like, just get to know them a little bit. Hey, where are you from? What are you interested in? What's your long-term career goals? Because I think when people know that we're interested in them, that builds trust very quickly. Wow. So presence, get to know them. And then for me, look, I'm an educator at heart. Uh, when you're training people and helping them get better at what they do, people appreciate that. Uh, so that meant for us it was like, okay, let's, let's do drills of mass casualty drills. Yeah, drills of putting IVs in, in difficult situations. Let's do drills of different clinical scenarios that people might come in with. Um, but that investment in training also builds trust.

Wow, that is quite insightful. Let's talk about your best-selling Amazon bestseller, Prescription for Caring in Healthcare Leadership. It's quite amazing when we talk about caring as a leadership strategy. Your book really, I mean, I think it was quite fascinating. So I guess my question for you first is, why is caring still misunderstood as a leadership weakness?

Great, great question. I wish it wasn't. You know, Mark Crowley, who wrote my foreword, has been working on this for a long time, as is Heather Younger, who I also cite in the book. You know, it's just one of those areas where I think for a lot of people, the idea that caring as a leader, like, that's kind of soft. But yet when you ask people, like you ask them, hey, tell me about the most effective leaders you've ever worked with. And then you ask them the question, did you feel like they cared about you personally and professionally? It's the answer is always yes. So then, so then you kind of have to go back and say, well, do you see why caring is important? Yes. And then it's the question is like, okay, what does that actually look like? I actually love Amy Vertrees, who's a former Army surgeon, had a quote in a book. Where she said, you know, caring is monumental strength. You know, this idea that when we care for people, it's, it's, it's really strength. You know why? Why it's such a thing. I think people still see that command and control, telling people what to do as, you know, a model of leadership. But it's actually not what people respond to, which is part of the reason why we need the book and amplifying the message, uh, that if you really want to motivate people and you really want your organizations to have cultures where people can thrive, then you need to take care of your people.

Wow. Yeah, that is, that is, uh, so true. I know, um, one way we are taught, uh, leadership in the Navy— it looks like it's in the Army across all of the branches, right? Mission first, because we, we do have to accomplish the mission of the command of the unit. But people always, right? I remember when I became a commanding officer, I reached out to all of my mentors, and one of them told me, uh, just take care of your people and your people will take care of the mission. And that is so true. Uh, what, what does caring look like though in action, right? Not just sentiment, but especially, you know, as a combat physician, high-stakes environment, accountability, and hard decisions are required.

Could you unpack that for us, sir? Yeah, and it can look like a lot of different things. Uh, I mean, several of the things I, I mentioned already, right? Like if you're investing in your people and you're training them, yes, you do that because you care about them and you ultimately know that you're— to have your mission be successful, you need to invest in training them, right? So investing in training in people, uh, some of the things that sometimes people don't really equate equate with caring about people, but it's actually essential, are things like accountability and feedback. So if I really care about you, BZ, and I see you doing something that's, you know, not effective, or, or maybe, maybe even it's effective but it's, it's not going to allow you to reach certain goals, or it's not going to allow you to reach your peak performance, if I care about you I need to hold you accountable for that and then give you feedback to get better. And, you know, look, if we care about our people, we have to give them feedback. And if we care about ourselves and our organizations, we have to be willing to accept feedback. It has to go both ways. And I think for some people, when we start framing it as an act of caring, it becomes a little less threatening, a little less intimidating. Like, I'm not giving you feedback because I'm trying to put you down or make you feel less of yourself. I'm giving feedback because I really care about you and I care about our organization. Yes. Wow. And in fact, if I don't give you that and then you found out later, you might actually be like, man, he didn't even care enough to give me the feedback.

Yes. Yes. Wow. That is quite insightful. And I know you set several examples in in, in the book. Maybe you could use one of them, or one since, since then, but can you share maybe a moment, sir, when demonstrating care fundamentally changed an outcome for a person or a team?

Yeah, there, there, there are many in the book, uh, and since I just talked about feedback, I'm going to talk about a different example. Um, I think the example I'm going to talk about is investing in people and giving people opportunities. And part of this is because I feel really strongly about this particular aspect. As we become more senior, and we ourselves have more success, that success, you already said it's built upon the people before us. Yes. Like neither one of us are in the positions we're in if people hadn't invested in us. True. So to me, as leaders, we need to really care about the people that we're leading. And part of that is giving them opportunities. And so we talk about this idea of sponsorship and how as a leader you can essentially propel someone's career by opening a door for them or giving them, you know, a career developing opportunity that without your help— yes, they're probably not going to get. And, you know, I talk about it in the book, but I had a program director for my infectious disease training, Glenn Wortman, who not only during fellowship gave me the opportunity to write a paper that essentially he was asked to write. Somebody— he was an expert in the field. Someone asked him to write this paper and he was like, no, I don't want to do it, but I have someone who will. Wow. He gave it to me. And then he subsequently gave me the opportunity as a very junior faculty to go and give a talk on combat-related infections. Yes. Uh, in an outside institution. Um, and I would have never been invited. Look, I was a very— no one even knew who I was. Yeah, right. Um, but, but he gave me this opportunity. And so what does that do? Those opportunities, uh, help build my reputation. They helped me get promoted academically, which for us in medicine is important and in medical education is important. So that ultimately impacted future roles that I was more competitive for, uh, future opportunities, just by those simple acts. And what's important about this is he could have done those himself. He, he by all rights had earned the, you know, right to publish that paper, the right to give that talk, but he saw it as, look, this is an opportunity for me to invest in Josh. Mm-hmm. So my challenge, like my caring act of leadership challenge for people who are listening, is if you're more senior and you have these opportunities or you know of them, start thinking about how you can give them to other people. Wow. Make that a habit to open those doors for people. I can also tell you, if you do that, those people are always going to look at you and be so unbelievably grateful. Yes. Wow.

That is really, really powerful. And it's also the power of giving it forward, right? Whatever my mentors and people have done for me, I wanna make sure I'm doing the same thing for the next generation of leaders in my field. That is so powerful. All right. So I'm now gonna kind of switch into the last segment of the show where I focus more on leadership principles and lessons that you have learned and that could be beneficial to the audience. Maybe to get started, sir, What do you think is the greatest lesson you have ever learned in general, in leadership, in life?

Uh, the greatest lesson— well, there's, there's so many great lessons. And, and I know I talked about humility before. Yes. Uh, but I feel like I need to go back to this. And, you know, throughout my career, I have had people remind me of the importance of humility. Yes, right. Uh, when I was in high school, I had a coach, um, we had just come off a pretty, uh, successful basketball season and I was feeling very good about myself. And, uh, we were preparing for our baseball season and I had played the year before, I was a starter the year before, so again I was feeling pretty good about myself and I was not doing the drills the way I should have been doing them. And this coach basically, in front of the entire team, chewed me out and said that if I really didn't want to be there and doing things correctly, that I should just leave. Wow. And you could argue about how the feedback was delivered and all these things, but the lesson really stuck with me, which is, one, is you need to have that humility Uh, but two, that, you know, as a leader, you're also a role model. So what, what he was really saying to me is, look, you're— everybody else is watching you, and you are, you are role modeling for the underclassmen, right? Yes. And, and if you're not doing it as the team leader, then no one else is going to do it. And I had a similar experience in ROTC But, you know, so the greatest lessons for me in those are one, just be humble and always working hard. Yes. And then two, like, be willing to give people that feedback. I mean, this was 30-some years ago, and I still remember the feedback. And I don't remember it in a negative way of like, man, I can't believe he yelled at me or chewed me out. But more importantly, that he did because I needed it.

That is quite powerful. I know yesterday I talked to General Larry Spencer and I was kind of asking him like, in my own career, 21 years now I've been in the Navy, I've worked for a lot of admirals and generals, but I've really never ever seen a single flag officer who was puffed up and arrogant. Like all of them are just so humble. They've accomplished so much. Now, of course, when I was a seaman and I went to boot camp 21 years ago, I felt like if you were a general officer, you're like a demagogue or something. But when you actually get to know them, they're just down to earth, humble. For example, General Spencer, who's my friend in the spotlight this week, I mean, he's driving, I don't know, it was a Toyota Corolla or something. He doesn't have to have those big fancy cars or anything. Just very, very simple, down to earth person. It's just amazing how effective they are, how humble they are, and how they really truly care about their people. And I was like, man, so do you guys go to some type of humility school before they give you your first star or something? Because I've seen senior officers, not like, like me and you, sir, O5, O6, you know, Colonel, Lieutenant Colonel, Commander, or Captain, who are a little bit arrogant and puffed up. But I've never, never seen a flag officer that way, at least in my own experience. I think humility will take you a very, very long way. That's probably one of the best lesson I learned when I got to become a commanding officer in the Navy. Because if you are not humble, you're just asking for trouble, really.

Wow. Yeah, I always think, yeah, if you're, if you're not humble, uh, you're probably about to be humbled.

Yes. Wow. But let me ask you, sir, what do you think is the secret to your success, not just as a combat physician, but no a doctor and a professor and also a bestselling author. How come you are so successful? What, what, why do you think so?

Uh, well, I feel blessed by God, number one. Uh, two, and, and this is, look, I, it's to me like there's no cheat codes. Uh, it's just hard work. Um, it's hard work. And you know, I think for me Thinking about, um, you know, how to do that. It's, it's not busy work, but it's strategic hard work. And, and knowing that if you consistently put in that work, good things are going to happen over time. Like, no, there's no math. Like, writing a book is a lot of hard work, but what I learned in that process is that, you know, anyone can write a book, but, but you have to be willing to sit down and spend hours writing the book and editing the book and doing those things. And I always go back to when I was in college. My, my, some of my friends sort of dubbed me or gave me a, you know, a fake award, which was the Get a Life Later Award. And it was because I spent so much time studying. Yes. I think for partly for me, I've always had a little bit of a chip on my shoulder because I came from such a small town. Um, you know, neither one of my parents had graduated college. I think it's that just drive to, you know, be able to— I don't necessarily want to say be successful because I, you know, I don't measure success in terms of like publishing a book is great, sure, but it's really about lives impacted. How how does my work then impact other people's lives? Yes, because that's, that's what people are going to remember at the end of the day, is like, how did you impact them? How did you help them? Uh, but, but to answer your, your question, that's, uh, it's a lot of hard work.

Yeah, actually, uh, General Laris Spencer also mentioned how the, uh, the meaning of success kind of changes throughout your career, but it's really about the impact on the people. Could you, could you maybe say a little bit more about how that meaning has changed for, for you throughout your career? What success meant before and what it means now?

Yeah, that's actually like a really brilliant question. I would say early in my career, I don't think that's how I thought. Early in my career, it was sort of about milestones and positions and accomplishments, if you will. So, hey, I want this job, I want this role, I want to, you know, be an associate professor, a full professor. And over time, a couple things happen. One, you realize when you hit those positions that there's always another position. Yes. And if you're always chasing something, it can be a little bit dissatisfying. So for me, it's this, this transition over time of not so much like chasing accomplishments, but embracing the process. Yes. And actually, I was working with a coach when I was writing the book, and one of the sort of mantras we came up with was embrace the process. Wow. Because the success of the book is really, in some ways, I mean, look, I want it to be successful because I think it's going to change people's lives. Yes. But the amount I learned through that process about myself, about how I can teach others to lead, about resources and things that I can share with people. So it went from a very goal-oriented definition of success, more to a process-oriented, and also that impact is not through accomplishments, but it's the impact on people's lives. So I actually have a sticky note over my desk at work, and, and the note says, uh, it's not about book sales, it's about lives changed. Wow. And it's just, to me, a constant daily reminder of like, what am I here for? I'm here to help people lead more effectively at work, at home, in their communities.

That is, that is really powerful. And for those who are listening to us, especially if you are in, in the healthcare business, you need to have that. But I think every leader needs to read this because to me, I've found out more and more that really leadership principles are universal, right? It doesn't matter which area of the industry you're in, your field and all of that, those principles work no matter what. And that is so fascinating. So what are you learning now, sir? I know leaders are learners. What have you been learning lately?

Yeah. I love that too, because I feel like I have this never-ending passion to learn more. The latest thing I'm actually learning or reading is— there's a book I'm reading, it's called Unreasonable by Will Guidara, and it's actually about hospitality in the restaurant business. So maybe something else people don't know about me is I'm a big foodie. I love to eat, although the people who work with me know I love to eat. Um, uh, I was just taking like leftovers off people's plates yesterday at a work party. But yeah, I mean, so what am I— why am I reading that book? Well, you know, we can learn, as you just said, leadership from any industry, any environment. And, you know, uh, Will, who wrote the book, is an amazing leader. And the idea of hospitality, hmm, certainly could apply to healthcare. Uh, you know, when you go visit your doctor or you go to the lab or the pharmacy, don't you want to feel like that's a, like, welcoming environment? And it's hot. Yes. So, so to me, it's kind of an adjacent, uh, topic. Uh, and again, I love the food industry, so it allowed me to dive into the food industry and also learn about leadership at the same time.

Wow, that is quite fascinating. Now, something I didn't say, I did tell you in the green room that I was a pre-med student when I was in college, but I was 17 years old and I felt like that was about 1995, 1996, but I felt like, you know, in the next is this upcoming century, or I guess this soon-to-be millennial, there were 3 things I wanted to have because originally I wanted to be pre-med and be a medical doctor. But I was like, okay, no matter what I do, whether I'm a doctor, an attorney, or whatever, 3 things I'm going to need to be very, very good at in this upcoming century. Number 1, I felt like I need I wanted to learn how to lead because even if I'm a doctor and I have my own practice, I'm gonna have like nurses and other physicians, I'm gonna need to learn how to lead those people. So leadership was very important. And in '95, about then, that's when the internet kind of took over the entire world. So I saw the potential for technology, even, you know, I was doing chemistry and biology, pretty much everything we did, we had to have computers now. So I'm like, yeah, I need to be pretty good at technology. And then the last thing was business operation, learning how to run a business and be profitable. This way, no matter what I do, I think those 3 skills are going to help me be quite successful. So, but anyway, it's really good to see how leadership, again, once you become a better leader, you can really apply those skills no matter what you do. Wow, that is quite Impressive. So what, what about failure? So we've talked all about your successes. How has failure shaped your life? Yeah, we—

I think we all fail throughout our lives. And one of the things I've actually been not only reading about, but starting to teach about that, you know, this idea that if we're, if we're really not failing, especially as we move on in our careers, uh, that we may not be stretching ourselves enough, right? Like, if you're, if you're always comfortable— and look, I, I don't— everyone has to decide for themselves, like, what they want out of life. But yes, if we're not continuing to sort of push ourselves and try new things, uh, then you may be leaving certain things on the table. So embracing failure, like, with that really idea of Look, no failure is permanent and all failure is a growth opportunity.

Wow, say that again, sir. That is— wow, that is very insightful.

Yeah, I mean, so, so no failure is permanent and all failure is a growth opportunity. And, you know, I failed at almost every stage of my career at certain things. Uh, when, when I was in ROTC, one prominent failure I had, uh, was that I was terrible at ruck marching. And for, you know, your listeners who are not familiar with ruck marching, it's basically you put a 40-plus pound, you know, backpack on your back and you carry a, you know, M4. For us, it was, you know, might have been an M16 at the time. Yes. Uh, right. And then you go and you, you march, or you run and march for a certain distance. And when I started ROTC, I remember the first ruck marches I did, I fell out. I fell out on almost every one. And, you know, uh, it was embarrassing. Uh, it made me question, like, was I in the right place? Like, am I doing the right thing? Um, but it was motivating. It was motivating to say, like, okay, what do I need to do to overcome this failure? And, you know, the answer was ruck march more, uh, you know, work, work on my, work on my strength, work on my endurance, uh, and, you know, which I did. And by the time I was a senior— and part of this is just the evolution of anything, right? When you start something new, you're not going to be good at it. Yes, right. Uh, by the time I was a senior, uh, I was able to ruck march effectively. And then You know, one of the other sort of like fun things I did when I was, um, in the Army was I went to Air Assault School, which is where you, you know, do learn how to attach things to helicopters, but also you rappel out of helicopters. Wow. Um, and, and part of that training requires you to pass a 12-mile ruck march. Wow. So, you know, had I not had those early failures and really focused on building up my strength and endurance, I would have never been able to successfully do what I did later, um, which, you know, was, was not— look, uh, the ruck marches were not necessarily fun, uh, but the rappelling out of the helicopter and learning how to rappel, that, that was actually a lot of fun. That's probably one of the early failures, uh, that, that motivated me. I mean, I had medical schools that I applied to that I got rejected from, I didn't even get an interview at. Um, you know, there's been other positions that I've thought about or haven't got. We, we are all going to have failures. Yes. The question is, what do you do with that failure to learn and grow and move forward?

Well, thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that, sir, because especially for junior officer and the enlisted who watch the show, sometimes we have this idea that, you know, Oh, here is the Colonel, he's so perfect, there is nothing he can't do wrong. And it really helps. I guess it kind of keeps you human and it also makes us relate more to you that yes, I am dealing with something now. Now I am more hopeful. I think I can overcome. So I really do appreciate that, sir. You've really mentioned quite a lot of experiences. In general, what do you think those experiences really touched you?

I think overall, like throughout my career, and again, it goes back to the book, but I've had so many leaders that when I, when I boiled it down, what I recognized is that in some way they were, they were caring about me, right? Whether it was giving me feedback, spending time with me, helping me get better at a certain task or skill, creating opportunities, or just checking in. Look, I've had some, you know, when bad things happen in life, and look, you don't live life without bad things happening. Yes, right? I mean, just like the older you get, like different things happen at different times for people, but like bad things happen in life. And you know, as leaders, when we show up in those times and simply just check in on people It's really, really important, right? And you know, the other thing is we never know. I mean, you mentioned this at the beginning. We never know when someone just needs somebody to help them understand that they matter. Hmm. So I think all of these experiences have, have led me to this idea of, you know, what can I do to help demonstrate for the people who are within my sphere of influence, whatever that sphere of influence is, Did I care about them and to help them get better? Yes. Because I want them to be, I want them to be better at work. I want them to feel better at home, uh, because if they're better, we are better.

Wow, that is so powerful. So powerful. Yeah, because the best keepers I've ever had are people who truly cared. Now, they did have very, very high standards, but you knew they were fair and they cared about you as a person, not just like a workhorse. And And that's it. People like that, you would follow them to the end of the earth or even to hell if you have to. That's really what leadership is all about, isn't it? Caring for people.

And I love what you just said, Bizzy, about the high standards, right? So the people we care most about, we want to set the highest standards for. Wow. I mean, just think about your kids. Yes. You set really high standards because you love them more than probably anyone else. The people we work for— and I just gave a talk to our internal medicine residents at Walter Reed this past week, and I said, look, who's here to be mediocre? Who showed up because they want to be average?

Yes.

Right. So setting high standards, but then also matching those standards with support and coaching. Yeah. Like, those are, those are very clear acts of, you know, caring acts of leadership.

Well, I can't believe we're almost running out of time. We only have about 5 minutes left. I could talk with you for hours, sir. You have so much wisdom and leadership nuggets. Let me ask you this. If you could choose 3 people, 3 people to have dinner with, they could be alive, dead, or mythical figures, who would you choose and why?

Yeah. So the first person I would choose is Teddy Roosevelt. Yeah, I mean, I'm a huge Theodore Roosevelt fan. He's just a fascinating guy who did so many different things. And really, when I think about leaders, just, I mean, he is a life lesson in leadership. So I would say Teddy Roosevelt.

And I know the Man in the Arena is probably one of his most important speeches.

It's incredible. Man in the Arena. Just, I think it would be amazing. Yes. You know, the second person, I don't know, I'm a really big Brené Brown fan. I love her work, but I also feel like she would be great to have dinner with. Yes. Because she's, you know, very engaging and honest and sort of unfiltered. So I would love to, you know, just pick her brain about leadership stuff. And then, you know, the final person, Boy, and this is gonna hit a little bit home for me. I, I would say my mom, uh, you know, my mom died when I was in, uh, medical school. Sorry to hear that. You know, as a parent now, I think back about— I just remember my mom worked at Walmart, and I remember going into Walmart and how much, like, she would brag about, like, me and my brother to her co-workers. And I will say, at the time, it was very annoying to me. Yes. But with 2 kids now, I think about how much I try to brag about them and how proud I am of them. Yes, I would love to be able to have dinner with her and her to be able to see that, like, all that work she did has led to me doing the things I've done. I think it would— I think she would be immensely proud, and I would love to just, you know, have that conversation.

Thank you so much for sharing that, sir. And, uh, in the green room we talked about at least one book you would recommend to the audience, and we talked about this one, The Culture Code, Daniel Coyle. Why should we read it?

Yeah, tremendous book. A lot of the ideas I have about leadership I learned from that book. We've done it as a leadership book club with some of the teams I've worked with. Uh, you know, culture is really everything. Yes. And, you know, this, this book breaks breaks down culture, looking at it through the Navy SEALs, Pixar, and then the San Antonio Spurs. Wow. So all of the stories are sort of taken from those groups and the ideas and lessons. And the other thing I really like about it is that it's not just sort of this feel-good read. There's very tangible and practical steps that you can implement to help build more effective cultures.

Fantastic. What about this one you mentioned, Unreasonable Hospitality?

Yeah, I'm like halfway through it, uh, you know, I got it like sitting right here. It's phenomenal. I— if you like, uh, the restaurant industry, you're gonna like it just for that because it's like a— it's like behind the scenes about how to build and run a restaurant. Uh, and then if you appreciate leadership, or, you know, if you're in the customer service business, which I'm guessing many of your listeners are, yes, uh, take, take, take a look. It's really— and I was telling somebody this the other day, you ever pick up a book and when you're reading it you're just like, man, this is a good book?

Yes, yes.

Just the way it's written and the flow.

And so it's a, it's a really phenomenal Now, when I was doing research about you, sir, I found out you recommended this book earlier on LinkedIn, Hal Moore on leadership. Why should our audience read this one?

Yeah, so I'm a huge Hal Moore fan. Um, you know, if you— if people aren't familiar with the, the book We Were Soldiers Once and Young, yeah, uh, which has also been made into a movie, uh, I, I love that book actually, by the way. We Were Soldiers Once and Young, it's a little bit longer and it's You have to sort of peel the leadership lessons out of it, whereas Hal Moran Leadership was his sort of leadership advice to junior officers. It's only like 100 and some pages.

It's a terrific book. Awesome. Definitely a legend. Can you give me 5 more minutes, sir, or do you have to go? Okay. Thank you so much. Like I said, I could talk to you for another hour or two. So much to unpack here. Uh, let me ask you this, uh, if you had one and only one day to live, what would you have liked your final contribution to be?

I would say if I only had one day, uh, I would sort of think about that day and think about, well, two things. I would think about the people closest to me and like spending that quality time with them and being able to tell them how much they mean to me. Um, you know, as a physician, as we think about end-of-life care, one of the, one of the blessings I had in my mom's life is that I was able to spend time with her at the end and really talk about how important she was to me and her, how important I was to her. And so I think I would spend time making sure people understand how much they meant to me. And then I would probably spend the rest of the day thinking about, okay, who can I invest in today to help them one last time? Yes. What's one last discussion, piece of advice, opportunity that will help them, whether it's carry forward lessons or just to help them sort of be successful?

Well, that's another reason why I really love authors like you by writing this book here. It's really part of your legacy. Long after you are gone, people can still read this book and be able to apply those lessons and improve their life. So talking about impact, thank you so much for that. So if you did have a magic wand and you could solve any problem at all, what is one problem you'd like to solve first thing tomorrow morning?

One problem. Well, there are many. To me, I think the one problem would be world hunger. And we, we live in a world of— let me rephrase that. Many of us live in a very affluent society, a very rich world. But yet we still have many people, not only within our own country, but within our world, who are hungry every day. Mm-hmm. You know, I think we should, we should really not feel good about that. Yeah, you look at, look at the stuff that José Andrés, the chef, has been doing. I mean, look, that guy is amazing. But, you know, I would say like, how could we collectively say like, we're not going to let this happen? Mm-hmm. I, you know, yeah, because if you think of world hunger, A lot of other things— illness, disease, all these— yes, conflict— they stem from people not having the basic necessities in life. So if we could solve that problem, it would probably make a lot of other problems better as well.

Yeah, it really hit me hard, uh, during the last government shutdown, because I am originally from the Congo, a very poor country in Central Africa, and I've seen a lot of my friends really not know exactly when their next meal is going to come from. That did affect me quite a bit. I think part of the syndrome I have, I guess, is the survival syndrome, I think it is called. I wonder why, why me and why not them? But last shutdown, like 40 million people in America, here in America, the richest country in the world, depend on food stamps. And if they don't have it, they're not going to be able to eat. Including children. Can you believe that? How is that possible? How in the world is that possible? Right now I live in Silicon Valley, one of the most expensive, wealthiest zip codes in the entire world, but we have billionaires. Actually, we have our first trillionaire now, Elon Musk. So how in the world can we have so much wealth, innovation, and technology and still have people go hungry?

I don't understand that. Wow. It's a problem we could fix. If we really deeply invested and thought about it and cared enough to fix it. Uh, and look, I know there's a lot of like, yeah, you know, geopolitical and things around it, but, um, we have the resources to fix it. Yes, yes.

Well, that's definitely my, my hope and my prayer, and hopefully I can do something to, to help solve that. No, the other thing that bothers me a lot is homelessness, especially, you know, places like Senegal. San Francisco, again, so much wealth and innovation, technology and great ideas, but still we have people who don't have a place to stay. That's just not acceptable. Anyway, so we are coming toward the end of the show, sir. What can we do to add value back to you?

Yeah, thanks for asking. A couple things would be super helpful. You know, one, you can follow me on LinkedIn. I post on there ideas and tips. So if you want to support that, that would be great. Forwarding this podcast to somebody else, buying the book and gifting it to somebody. So thinking about like, hey, giving this to somebody in your life who you feel like you want to invest in their leadership. If you want to invest in their leadership, give them a leadership book. And then to support me, Amazon reviews help, I believe, the algorithm somehow. So if you have read the book or you do read the book, I would greatly appreciate a review. And the other thing I would say is just keep spreading the message, whether it's about my book or other books about the importance of caring for people through our leadership. Wow.

Thank you so much, Joel. So let me ask you what I think is the most important question I ask my guests. If you could go back and give a piece of advice to your 17-year-old self, Standing at the edge of this incredible career you've had, combat medicine, being a professor and a doctor, standing at the edge of this great career, what would you say to your 17-year-old self?

I would say, um, well, two things. I don't know if I'm allowed to say two, but I will. One is enjoy the ride.

You are the Colonel, you can say whatever you want, sir.

You know, just enjoy the ride, enjoy the process, you know, embrace every opportunity and have fun doing it. The thing would be, and this is probably the lesson I really wish I would have known, is prioritize. Early in my career, you know, I was one of those like kind of I have to do everything because I don't know what not to do. And it took me a while to really become more strategic in sorting out, like, okay, does this really align with who I want to be and what I want to do, or am I just doing this because I think I need to do it? Uh, so, so figuring out earlier how to prioritize, and within prioritization, how to say no to things, uh, those are two big lessons that, you know, would have helped me probably multiple times. I mean, part of this is you learn by failure. Yes. But I think prioritizing, being strategic with your life plan, having mentors that can help you make those decisions, I would have loved that lesson a little earlier.

Wow. All right, we are toward the end. In about a minute and a half, we're going to be completely done. Let's do maybe a quick lightning round, right? Rapid fire. So don't take too long to to think, sir, whatever comes out of your mind first. What is one word that defines great leadership? One word. Caring. Okay, I thought so. Morning routine or practice that keeps you grounded?

Uh, my morning routine is a good— well, now it's a full glass of water. Oh, nice. 30-45 minutes and a cup of coffee.

That's very Dr. Ish, sir. Thank you. Okay, a book or quote that changed your life?

Yeah, I mean, I already mentioned Culture Code. The other one I would say is Radical Candor by Kim Scott. If you haven't read Radical Candor, that book I think really sort of changed and helped modify the way I think of feedback. So Radical Candor.

Definitely gonna add that to our bookshelf. Who inspires you most today?

Who inspired me most today? Um, I'm gonna say that I am inspired most by our, uh, medical students and residents. Yes. And the reason why I say that is, you know, look, it's never been harder to be a medical student or resident. There's an overwhelming amount of information. Yes. How do you learn that information and how do you do these things and take care of yourself at the same time is really challenging, uh, but they inspire me every day because of the dedication, passion, and work ethic that they have. Wow.

So what is a leadership habit you refuse to compromise on?

I, I refuse to compromise on investing in others. Yes.

And, uh, what is a question every leader should ask themselves frequently.

What can I do to help this person in front of me?

So what did you want to be when you were a kid?

Probably a baseball player or a basketball player. Um, growing up, I was really into sports. That's probably— probably took me a while to figure out that I didn't have the athletic ability to, uh, accomplish that.

Well, at least now, so you can fix them when they get injured, so that's pretty good. What are 3 adjectives describing you as a child?

Oh, uh, energetic, um, probably hardworking even as a, even as a kid, um, and I guess I would say funny because I, I've always sort of been fun and kind of made joking part of my who I am. As an adult? Yeah, sarcastic will be one of those probably, which I'm working on. I still think that, you know, discipline or hard work is one. And then, you know, I don't want to abuse the word caring, but it's really such a core value to who I am. That would be the other one.

Absolutely. It definitely shows there. And then I was like to leave, uh, with AI not being a little bit optimistic about what's happening in the world today, but what is, uh, one thing you are feeling optimistic about?

I am feeling optimistic that, uh, people are recognizing the value of connection. And I say that for a few reasons. I think one, as I've been doing more reading about leadership, I keep seeing the importance of connection coming up. And why I'm so optimistic about that is connection matters in so many ways. When we feel connected, it makes us feel like we matter. And when we feel like we matter, yes, it helps us feel better about ourselves. It has a very significant impact on well-being. So I'm encouraged and optimistic that people are seeing that importance. Importance of connection. And they're not just seeing it, but they're thinking about, okay, what are the intentional steps that I can take or our organization can take to build connection?

Wow, that is so powerful. Reminds me of a quote by Oprah, which she got from Maya Angelou: People will forget everything you say, but they will never forget the way you made them feel. Connection is so important. All right, this is the very last question, sir, and this is the end of the show. And thanks so much for giving us an extra 10 minutes. Really appreciate that. What is one word that represents our shared experience on this podcast today?

How about service?

Service. Thank you. Thanks so much, sir. And I am so, so grateful. And thank you for spending an hour with us. We really appreciate learning from your experience. Thank you, Colonel Josh Hartung. Bye. All right, everybody, this was quite a show, and I hope you've learned something from it. Just a quick reminder, uh, in about an hour I will be back. We're gonna do, uh, the, um, Book of Proverbs special edition of the Leadership and Success Podcast. This is not a religious broadcast, but it's about ancient wisdom mentoring from the Book of Proverbs. We're going to be focusing on ancient wisdom and leadership lesson. We're going to be reading Proverbs chapter 16 today, January 16th, and we're going to do 17 tomorrow, and we're going to end the Book of Proverbs at the end of month on January 31st. We're gonna read all 31 chapters and see how ancient wisdom, those leadership principles still apply today in 2026. All right, and then this afternoon I will have a great pleasure of speaking with Dr. Lee Balkom. He's an architect of thriving relationship, bestselling author of so many books, the latest one, Thrive Principle. We're gonna be talking about thriving under pressure. And then tomorrow I will No, actually Sunday, Sunday, I will have the great pleasure of speaking with Major Chris Slininger, US Army. We're gonna be talking about mentorship-driven change agency. We're gonna be talking about his journey from Eagle Scout to field grade officer in the most powerful army in the world. So you don't wanna miss that. And thank you so much for watching and see you in about an hour. And thank you for watching the Leadership and Success Podcast. Podcast. Bye for now.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.