S5:E25🎙️ LIVE with COL Thomas J. Gordon, USMC (Ret.) (Multi Tracks Audio)

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Colonel Thomas J. Gordon, Colonel Tom Gordon, Commandant of Cadets, Citadel. Sir, what is the purpose of having the cadets here? Well, I believe leadership's a performing art. In other words, people do what people see, and I couldn't imagine a better example for our future cadet leaders to follow than the drill instructors here down at Parris Island. I hope that they can take away some transferable leadership skills such as the drill instructor's professionalism and intensity. What do you hope these cadets gain from today? Well, I believe growth and comfort can never coexist. I brought the cadre down here to get them out of their comfort zone. I wanted to give them an opportunity to demonstrate courage and to build confidence. All of these stations, all of these obstacles were carefully chosen to help build character. Yes, sir. How do you plan to translate the experiences and lessons learned here into effective leadership development for the cadets at the Citadel? The theme here today for all of these stations is empathy. I want the future cadet leaders here, our cadre, to take away from this experience an opportunity to see the problem in the round, to be able to experience the challenges, the rigor, the intensity that our freshmen are going to face next week.

I want them to remind—

I want them to remember what it feels like. That way they can help better teach, coach, and advise and mentor these freshmen so they can be successful. Our mission is to educate and develop principled leaders and return men and women of virtue and character back to society where they can be successful in all walks of life. Part of that job and part of our mission over the next couple of weeks, and quite frankly, the next 4 years with the Class of 2027, is to imbue them with our core values: duty, honor, respect. I couldn't think of a better place to start that journey than here at Parris Island. The Marine Corps and the Citadel's core values are very similar: honor, duty, respect, honor, courage, and commitment. You come down to Parris Island, what do you expect to see? You expect to see discipline, you expect to see intensity, you expect to see professionalism. These are all attributes that I hope our cadre, having observed the drill instructors here, will be able to take those with— these skill sets with them back to the campus up there in Charleston and be able to integrate that into our leadership development model.

Colonel Tom Gordon, United States Marine Corps retired, class of 1991, and I'm the commandant of cadets.

Excellent. What made you want to come back to the Citadel, sir? Well, after 30 years of serving my country as a United States Marine, I wanted to do something significant, and I couldn't imagine anything more significant than educating and developing principals leaders. So what do you think is the importance of leadership? The world today needs principled leaders. We need men and women of virtue and character to go back and lead in society in all walks of life. Personally, I think it's a national security imperative. Why come to The Citadel? First and foremost, for a world-class education. The Citadel was ranked the number one college or university in the South for 12 years in a row. But The Citadel education is unique because it focuses on the whole person and stands upon four pillars. The academic pillar is there to teach critical thinking skills and provide you lifelong learning opportunities. The military pillar, of course, is to create second lieutenants and ensigns, but it's really how we teach leadership and teach you time management. It's not just to create second lieutenants and ensigns, though we do a great job with that. We were ranked the number one ROTC program in the country last year by College Magazine. Now the fitness pillar is more than just fitness physical fitness, but I promise you we're going to get you in shape. It's also spiritual strength and emotional wellness. Now, Character Pillar, well, that may be the most important pillar of all, and it binds the other three together. Character here at the Citadel, though, it's not a workout program, it's a—

All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast. We have a great guest, an outstanding leader waiting for us in the green room right now. Before I bring him in, let's do what we are accustomed to do here, which is to take a moment for a moment of gratitude. It takes less than a minute every time we meet. We just want to make sure that we take a moment to be grateful because that's really good for your emotional health. And we live in such a wonderful country. What is there not to be grateful about? So if you would maybe close your eyes or take a deep breath and just think about one thing you are grateful for right now. And today I am really grateful to be a US citizen, right? To live in the home of the brave and the land of the free. And I think it's mostly because of our great armed forces. So I want to salute everybody who's ever served any branches of the military for any length of time. Because veterans really keep our country great. I'm so grateful for that today. All right. So let us know what you are grateful for. Let us also know where you are joining us from, what city, state, and country outside of the U.S. And also, if you have a question for our guest, please type it in the comment. And hello to Daniel Young, a member of our audience, pretty active member. Coming to us from Midland, Florida. Thank you so much for being here, Daniel. So let me see if I can properly introduce our guest today. So today we are going to be speaking with Colonel Thomas J. Gordon, United States Marine Corps, retired. So I am really grateful to have him on the show today, and we're going to be talking about character, command, and leadership that endures. So Colonel Gordon is a 30-year Marine, former director of the Marine Corps Command and Staff College, current commandant at the cadet at the Citadel. And like you heard in the video clip, it's the number one school in the South right now. That is pretty cool. He's also the bestselling author of Marine Maxim: Turning Leadership Principles into Practice. And his work challenges leaders to move beyond title and talent and focus on the habits, discipline, and moral courage that sustain leadership over a lifetime. So ladies and gentlemen, please help me welcome Colonel Thomas Gordon to the Leadership Success Podcast.

Easy. How we doing?

Good morning, sir. Doing really great, especially that you are here and we are so privileged to really learn from your wisdom and your experience. Just to get started, sir, what is something you are grateful about Well, BZ, I'm grateful for this opportunity, straight up.

You know, I'm a disciple of leadership. I read a lot of books on the subject, follow a lot of podcasts, and I stumbled across yours. And you have quite the production, my friend. I'm humbled to be included in it. And I had no idea I had so much stuff hanging out there on the web. I guess you even found some old B-roll from my last trip down to Parris Island that You must have it out there on divots or something. I'm not sure where that came from, but thank you. You honor me by having me on today.

Well, it is a great honor for us, and I especially love that even after you left the Marine Corps, you are still serving in uniform as the commandant at the Citadel, the number one school in the South. Now, I used to live in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. I definitely heard about your school. It's really amazing how you build men and women who come to your college. It's, it's, it's, um, just, uh, beyond, beyond belief. It's, it is great, great work for our national security, for sure. Uh, let me ask you, sir, what is maybe something about you that most people may not know when they first meet you?

Boy, something that they don't know about me that, um, you know, I'm kind of an open book, BZ. Uh, you know, I'm a proud grandfather right now. If you want to talk about what I'm grateful for Someone I was reading this morning, or I listened to it this morning, they said that, you know, grandchildren are God's last gift to you. And I'll tell you, I am blessed with two young grandsons right now.

So that's the best thing.

My wife and I are proud grandparents. I guess that's what folks don't know about me right now.

Well, my first daughter, she's going to be 24 this year, but I don't think I want to be a grandfather until she's about 50 years old or something. But that is such a Blessing. But maybe, sir, you can tell us briefly how you got to become a colonel in the most powerful Marine in the world. How did you get into the Marines, sir?

Well, I joined the Marine Corps straight out of Citadel. As a matter of fact, that's why I went to the Citadel. I knew my why. I knew what I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to be a United States Marine. I wanted to test myself. I wanted to prove my mettle against what I thought was the toughest standard and the most rigorous organization. But why I joined the Marine Corps and why I stayed in the Marine Corps, two very different things. Very different things. My plan was I was going to join the Marines, lead Marines as a lieutenant, and then I was going to go off into the FBI or do something like that. I stayed in the Marine Corps because I love Marines. I had a complicated relationship with the Marine Corps, like most of us, you know, but I don't say I love the Marine Corps. I love Marines. And I worked to the last day. I worked last day when they say 30 years in the Marine Corps, you know, a lot of folks back that off, whatever, 6 months, 9 months terminal leave. I worked to the very last day. And you know, they had to kick me out. I would, I would still be doing it. Now, I'd like to say after 30 years in the Marine Corps, they take you out back and shoot you. Heaven's an awful lot like the Citadel in Charleston for my wife and I, I couldn't imagine doing anything more significant in this chapter. It doesn't really feel like I retired. You know, I retired technically on a Wednesday, and I started this job on a Monday. And moving my wife down from Quantico, Virginia, and over the long weekend.

So, um, wow, that's amazing.

We consider this our 18th PCS.

That's really something, because after 9/11, I went to talk to all four branches of the military, including the Marines, and I was kind of, you know, inspired by the Marines because this is what the few, the proud, the Marines— once you're a Marine, it's— there's just nothing like it. Like, I was on telling my fellow sailors, in my entire 21-year career now in the Navy, I've never seen a single fat Marine ever. Now, we do have some fat officers in the Navy and in the Army, but in the Marine Corps, never. It's, it's, it's, it's— you guys are a different breed, I must tell you. Now, and, and an important thing too about your story, you actually started at the Citadel back in 1991, right? And then you returned decades later as the Commandant of Cadets. How did that feel? Surreal.

Wow.

Absolutely surreal. I can't say that I ever dreamed to be in the Commandant, but it does feel like a dream being here. I am truly blessed. As I said, I get up every morning and like Sunday rolls around and I can't wait for Monday morning, 0530 PT with the cadets. And I just love it. I love it.

I—

it's, it's significant, right? Educating, developing this next generation, being able to pay it forward. I couldn't imagine doing anything else more significant.

Wow, that is quite amazing. You do have a lot of pictures of your cadets doing PT and training, and I was telling you in the green room that pretty much triggered me because it took me back to boot camp and all of the suffering I had to go through. But it's really just amazing to see how you are transforming the future leaders of America, really building that character. And talking about character, sir, so you going back as a commandant of cadets, so looking back, what formative experiences most shaped your understanding of leadership before you ever held command authority?

Well, you know, as a cadet here, the Citadel is unique in the fact that the Corps leads the Corps.

Right.

So, and as far as leadership goes, there's lots of different forms of leadership, styles of leadership. There's no more challenging leadership than leadership in combat. But I will tell you, leading your peers is a very close second.

Yes.

So I had the privilege of being a company commander here when I was 21 years old.

Wow.

And, you know, in the Marine Corps, we have positional authority, right? As a young second lieutenant, your orders carry the weight of the UCMJ and Title 10. You're at the Citadel, right? The cadets' authority comes from their moral authority, from— comes from their credibility. So you have to learn how to, how to connect with people, how to influence people. But it's not positional authority. You know, let's be honest, right? If a young second lieutenant hits the operating forces, or a young ensign hits the fleet, And the only thing they have going for them is positional authority. Well, they're never going to make First Lieutenant, or they're going to— their career is going to end at First Lieutenant, and their career is going to end at Lieutenant JG. So I learned so many transferable leadership skills as a young cadet here leading my peers as a company commander that were directly transferable to the operating forces. I learned how to— I learned how to make corrections without being an ass.

Right?

I learned how to hold people accountable. I learned how to hold myself accountable. I learned how to cast a vision and get folks to buy into that. It's so, so many lessons here, so many lessons here. And most importantly, those lessons were all about relationships, how to build relationships. And those relationships have endured now for 35 years.

Wow, that is just amazing. Like, one of the, uh, pictures you had on your LinkedIn which specifically triggered me was this one, because when I joined the Navy, I couldn't do a single push-up. Now, it took me a while, but, uh, within 6 months when I went to boot camp, I was able to do about 30 or so. The best I've ever done within 2 minutes is about 65, 68 push-ups. But, uh, that— if nothing drives character into you, that definitely will. It's, uh, Amazing. So Colonel, you've commanded at pretty much every level in operating forces. What did junior officer Tom Gordon, like you say, maybe Second Lieutenant or First Lieutenant Tom Gordon misunderstand about leadership that today as a Colonel, you see very clearly?

Well, Second Lieutenant Gordon's confidence to competence ratio was way off. I think, you know, young Marines, the Marines do a great job of producing Marines. They do a great job of producing young officers. But one thing we do a horrible job of is developing humility, right? I don't think I could spell humility as a young second lieutenant. But what is it that great theologian Mike Tyson said? If you're not humble, life will deliver humility upon you. Well, the Marine Corps certainly delivered humility upon me. But it's ironic, right? Or there's a paradox there, because the thing about humility is as soon as you claim it, you've lost it.

True.

So I would say that confidence to competence ratio, over 30 years, probably inverted. Right. So when I hit the operating forces, my confidence was here, my competence was there. I think when I retired, probably my competence was here and my confidence was there.

Talking about competence, I think many leaders, they kind of chase competence first, which, you know, it kind of makes sense. But When did you realize that character, not talent, would be the true limiter multiplier of leadership?

Yes, Maxim 44 in my book, right? A lot of things will get you to the top, but only character will keep you there. Well, we've all seen those cautionary tales, right?

Yes.

You read the Marine Corps Times, you read the Navy Times, and you see those skippers going down for loss of trust and confidence. We know what that means. That was a violation of trust. That was a violation of character. Yes. And it's— character means a lot of things. That word has changed over the years. Yes.

I take—

I subscribe to a more classic definition of character. I believe your character is defined by your personal choices. It takes form every day in each and every one of us in that inner confrontation between, you know, the easy wrong and the hard right. Those decisions repeated over time become a habit, a disposition to do the right thing. At the end of the day, there are lots of different leadership traits and principles, but there are some things that have a multiplication factor of zero. If you don't have it, you zero out your leadership. Character is one of them. If your Marines don't believe or your sailors don't believe, that they can trust you, that your word means something. That's, that's going to be a problem. We have a big problem nowadays with the, with the video not matching the audio out there.

Yes.

You know, that's, that's what integrity means to me, is being able to integrate, you know, my values into my actions. And you can't fake it, right? You can't fake it. At least you can't fake it for long.

Yes, and that is so simple, but yet so critical. And we definitely need to see more and more leaders like this. So throughout your career, sir, who are maybe some of the early leaders who kind of modeled what white looked like when no one was watching? Maybe you can tell us about this Colonel White here, this American hero.

Oh, wow.

Yes. You know, I'm so happy you found that picture, P.C., because that right there is truly an American hero. That is Colonel Myron Harrington. So Colonel Harrington is the recipient of the Navy Cross.

Wow.

Won as the CO of Delta Company, 1-5 in the Battle of Hue. I was privileged to have Colonel Harrington as probably my first mentor in the Marine Corps. He commissioned me from the Citadel. He was a professor of naval science here. And he became a lifelong mentor and a friend of mine. Just had such an incredible impact on my life, on my life, and so many of my classmates' lives and the impact he has had on so many people. I'll tell you, we lost him last year, BZ. He passed away on February 19th last year after, after a long battle with cancer. I will, I will tell you, he has left, he has left a living legacy in us. And when it comes to— I told you that missing leadership trait, you know, humility. I'll share a quick story. He had asked me— I had the honor of being— he asked me to plan his funeral, plan his funeral. And I'm good friends with his son Mike. And that was his one rock I was hoping I could take out of Mike's pack, you know, at the end there. And we planned his funeral. And he was a deacon at with one of the churches downtown. And when I talked to the, um, to the leadership of the church there, uh, they didn't know he was a Marine.

Really?

They didn't know he was a Marine. And, uh, when that hit, when they said that to me, I mean, my knees actually buckled. Here was probably one— he— so Colonel Harrington received the Navy Cross and the Silver Star within a week of each other. He was one of the most highly decorated veterans of the Vietnam conflict. And he went to church with these folks for decades and they didn't know he was a Marine. He taught me, he continues to teach me more about humility after, afterwards. So remarkable man, I'm glad you found that picture.

Thanks for telling me. And Lieutenant General David Wilson say amen. What a remarkable, remarkable man. Wow. Now let's talk about leadership under pressure. You've said that character is revealed not created under pressure. What behavior consistently exposes weak character in leaders you observe, and how can emerging leaders avoid those traps?

So I think the biggest challenge that young leaders, young second lieutenants face when they hit the fleet or they hit the operating forces is what I call the disease to please. Mm-hmm. They want to be liked, and that's It's human nature, right? We all, we all want to be liked, but if you're going to raise your right hand and swear to defend the Constitution, and if you're going to be an officer, you know, in the fleet, in the operating forces, it's not about you. It's, it can't be about you. And the officers that try to curry favor with their sailors or curry favor with their Marines, they end up becoming an object of ridicule.

Yes.

They do. There's a paradox there. The more you try to be liked, the more you become an object of ridicule and disdain. The Marines don't want you to be their buddy, right? They want you to be their leader. They want you to be their lieutenant. They want you to be their ensign, right? They're not trying to be liked. So the young officers who try to be liked, that fall victim to the disease to please, it speaks to character. Yes, it speaks to character. Now, you know, as you go on, you know, you hopefully you should be trying to be respected, right? That's how you— that's how you're going to build loyalty. I like to say loyalty is the result. It's never a requirement.

Yes.

When, when your Marines and your sailors can trust you, right, they will respect you. And you will be successful.

So insightful. And I know in the Navy, we've learned mission first, people always. We probably stole that from the Army. But As a commander of a 4,000-Marine organization, how did you balance the mission urgency with people stewardship when both felt non-negotiable?

Well, it's, it's all about balanced excellence, right? Now, when I was a, when I was a tank battalion commander, you had about 800 Marines, 54 M1A1 main battle tanks. My training philosophy, the analogy I used was a stool. Right. In order to withstand the weight of the mission, you know, we had three legs on our stool. It was all about tactics, gunnery, and maintenance. In order to put steel on target, you had to be proficient with your weapon system. You had to know enough about tactics to actually be in place to, you know, to put steel on target. And then, of course, if you're not maintaining your equipment, right, you're not going to be able to get to that fight. So it was balanced excellence, trying to maintain that balance in our operation tempo, between training and readiness and maintenance. So you learn that, but it's, it's so much bigger than that when you add in the human dimension to it too, right? So I was in command, you know, the last 20 years of our service, right, was we were at war, we were at war, we were on that gerbil wheel, you know, deploying, coming back, PTP, deploying. So you had to then factor in into that balance, into that balanced excellence, you know, needed to include opportunities to reset and to take care of the families. And yes, that was, that was so important. I learned an awful lot about that, you know, attending, attending a lot of retirements now at this point in my life, right? I used to attend a lot of weddings. Now I attend, I attend retirements. And I've never heard any of my peers stand up and say, you know, I wish I had spent more time deployed. I wish I had spent more time training. I wish I had spent more time— fill in the blank.

Never.

They all sit up there, their voice cracks as they look at their spouse, their voice cracks as they look at their kids.

Yes.

You know, they realize that how out of balance their life has been. The thing about that is, is we do a really horrible job as leaders in the Marine Corps modeling that behavior. Your folks are never going to take time off if they don't see you taking time off.

Right?

One of my mentors, one of my heroes was Lieutenant General John Sadler. You won't find a better boss. He was so much fun to work for. But I remember when I was a young captain at Camp Lejeune, I went on a morning run and I was running down River Road. And I bumped into then, you know, Colonel Sadler. He was sitting in his car. And he was working in the front seat of his car. And I didn't know he was there. There was some pull-up bars right there. And I stopped and I was doing some pull-up bars. And I jumped off the bar and then I heard him yell at me, you know, hey, hey, hey, Marine, you know, I turned and it was him. And so we just struck up a little quick conversation.

Yes.

I said, sir, what are you doing? 6 o'clock in the morning and he's sitting out there in his car. You know, in front of the pull-up bars. I said, what are you doing, sir? And he looked at me and he said, he goes, Tommy, he goes, you're gonna be a colonel someday. And I said, no, no, you'll be a colonel someday. He goes, and he goes, remember this conversation. I don't show up to work before 7:30 in the morning. He goes, why? He goes, it's not that I don't have all the work to do. He goes, but if I show up at If I show up at 7:30, then my staff, my Marines, well, they're in there at 6:30 or 7, right? Now, if I show up at 6, when are my Marines gonna be in there? Well, they're gonna be in there at 5:30 or 5. And I said, I get it.

Yes.

That makes some sense. We know how much work there is to do, right?

Yes.

But sometimes the best example that we can set for our Marines or for our sailors is, is some self— is taking care of ourselves, right? Taking care of our own.

Wow. I do have a question related to this book, sir, The Right Thing. I don't know if you know, uh, he's retired now, Commander Scott Waddell, but, uh, I heard him speak. I think I was in Saint-Sélec, so that must have been 2007. But his book, The Right Thing, he talks about the untold story of a deadly collision of a nuclear submarine, USS Greenville, He was the CEO of that with a Japanese fishing vessel. So all, all of them died. And one man's courageous decision to do the right thing. And the question I wanted to ask, as a junior officer, my best skipper told me to make as many mistakes as I wanted because it wouldn't really have much of an effect to national security or anything. And I could learn from those mistakes and really fail forward. But when you get to the O5, O6 level, you become a senior officer in the military. What does moral courage really look like at that level where the consequences of dissent and whatever mistake you make, you know, are often personal or even political, and where the impact of your decision could have very, very serious impact on— I could even say, you know, at times even the direction of our country, or definitely would be affecting the lives of a lot of sailors and Marines who follow you?

Well, I'll tell you what, before I hit that at the '05-'06 level, let me back up a little bit. So my first command was down in Parris Island. I like to say I learned how to be an operator in the fleet, but I learned how to be an officer down at Parris Island. Now, as a company commander, battalion commander, group or regimental commander, you're required to publish your command philosophy. The Marine Corps tells you you should keep it to a page and it should be conspicuously displayed around the, around the command. The Marines don't read it, you know that. Alright, so I took my command philosophy and I distilled it down to a single sentence, a bullet: Do right and fear no man. Now we could talk about that this entire podcast, but it gets after your question. Alright, by right, I was communicating to my Marines that we would do what we ought to do. All know what we ought to do. The good Lord imprinted that on our soul, right? It's called our conscience. We know what we ought to do. Our actions wouldn't be defined by situational ethics, right? It would— we would be held accountable by an honor stand that transcended legal compliance. Do what we ought to do. Now, the fear no man piece of that wasn't intended to be bellicose. It was just my public repudiation by what I saw at that day was leadership by fear and intimidation.

Yes.

See, there's a, there's a warfighting imperative to that too. If he's— I took that command philosophy, do right and fear no man, and I carried it into the operating forces. When I was a CO, first night, all the Marines knew, do right and fear no man. They would echo it back to me whenever they saw me. What I was communicating to them in an operational sense, right, was, you know, the Marine Corps is all about maneuver warfare, MCDP 1, privacy of proximity. What does that mean? Well, that means that young second lieutenant, that means that captain at the point of friction, at the, at, you know, the decisive point is best equipped, right, to seize the initiative. Right.

And to—

and you only can seize the initiative in combat, right? When the situation presents itself. I wanted them to follow my orders to execute the plan, right up until the plan didn't make any sense anymore. I wanted them to have the confidence to deviate. And here's the thing, your soldiers, your airmen, your Marines, your sailors, they're not going to deviate from the plan unless they think that the CO, the old man, has their back. Yeah, that's what I wanted to communicate to my Marines was we would never ever fear the consequences of well-intentioned failure. My command philosophy here at the Citadel: do right and fear no man. Yes, this is a safe place for them to fail. I'm not afraid to let them fail because that's how they learn leadership.

True.

That's how they develop character, right?

Yes.

So anyway, so but back to the 506 level, what does that look like? Well, it was my same command philosophy, do right and fear no man. But then it gets into how do you lead up? How do you lead up? And, you know, that's what being a colonel is all about to me.

Yes.

In the Marine Corps, we call it the Senate. We call it the Senate. Now, there are those that aspire to be general officers. And, you know, as I said, they had to kick me out. I'm not bitter. I'm not bitter. I found the limit to the Marine Corps sense of humor. And, you know, in transition at the 30-year mark, but it as a colonel, I knew where my obligation lay in my— where my loyalties lay. And it was first and foremost to our Heavenly Father, right? Then it was to this nation, right? Then it was to the Marine Corps. And it was to the unit. And, you know, my loyalty, my boss was somewhere underneath that. Yes, my always, my loyalty was, was to a higher, was to a higher purpose. And, you know, as a, as a colonel, you have to have the moral courage to lead up and yes, we will well and faithfully discharge the duties, right? And we'll follow those orders. But we also have a moral responsibility to lead up. And, you know, when— and, and dissent, loyal dissent, right, is what I like to say. You know, it— I think it's a mark of loyalty as a colonel to go in there and, and, and tell, tell the boss, tell the general, tell the admiral what the, what the general or the admiral might not want to hear, but what you think they need to hear. Now, once they take it and they say, hey, I got it, Gordon, now, aye aye, sir, then that's a— with a full 30-inch step. Full 30-inch set. But I'm going to have that conversation. I'm going to have that conversation. Right. And that's my— that's my obligation as a colonel. Right. That's my obligation as an officer.

Right.

Yes. To the Marine Corps, to the unit, to my Marines, and to my commander.

Wow. That is so insightful and so powerful. I think this was worth the price of admission, sir. Especially for the enlisted and junior officer listening right now. Do right and fear No man. Wow, that is powerful. Now, um, Byron Bush says thank you for your leadership, and we have our first question from the audience. Daniel Leong says, uh, the need to be liked is a structural weakness. Colonel, how do we train lieutenants to value the respect of the standard over the likes of the peers? That's a good question.

That is, that is a good question, and You do. It's, it's what do we, what do we reward? Where do you put, place your incentives in, in the organization? I like to say pin it where, where you win it is one of my maxims, because whatever incentive program you need, you have, it needs to be very specific, right? So if you are rewarding your Marines, or if you're recognizing your Marines for, in and it's standards-based, right, then folks will understand that that's what you value. If they think that you value, you know, performance, if they think that you value, you know, meeting the standards, right, then that's what they're going to focus on. Right? If it's all things, if it's pleasantries, if it's, you know, sycophants, right, you know, people like that, if that's what they think they value, if they think they value flattery, then that's what you're going to get. Yes, then that's, that's what you're going to get. So it's what you, what you incentivize, what you reward, that's how you're going to do that. Now, the lieutenants, um, the big thing about the challenge in today's society, right, is how they've been raised. It's all about, you know, how many likes do they have on these things, right? It's— they get their edific— you know, they get their little hits of dopamine by how many people like their Instagram post. Yes, not by the impact that they have had you know, on their organization. They've, they've exported it. How do we internalize it? That's, that's the big thing. You know, when you're— I saw you had John Maxwell out there. One of my favorite John Maxwell quotes is, you know, when you're stronger on the inside than you are on the outside, those things on the outside can't pull you off course. Wow.

Very, very insightful. Well, Three-star General David Wilson says, uh, that's powerful and is underpinned by standard and discipline. External discipline restricts, but internal discipline demands. Internal discipline precludes the need for external discipline. Internal discipline demands that you do right, uh, work with excellence, take care of your people. Well, only a general can speak like that. That's exactly what you're saying.

That's just not— that's just not a general. That's That's Dave Wilson. That's Lieutenant General Dave Wilson, my classmate at the Citadel. You want to talk about a self-made man?

Incredible.

A man of virtue and character. I can't think of anyone better.

Well, General, it looks like the Colonel is wanting you to be on the podcast next, sir. I'm going to be reaching out.

I'll tell you what, you need to bring him on the podcast, and the only thing I'll be grateful for is the fact that I don't have to follow him. The last person in the world that you want to have to follow is Dave Wilson.

That is really interesting. I was telling all of the generals I've ever interviewed or worked for in the Navy, in the Air Force, or the Army, I feel like they all go to some type of humility school or something before they get their one star, because I have never, never seen in my entire career a puffed-up flag officer. Now I see some colonel and, you know, commander like me, yeah, Few of us have a little big head, but a general admiral, never.

No, you won't find anyone more inspiring than General Wilson. He's the real deal. You need to bring him on.

Incredible. Now let me ask you a follow-up, sir, because I remember when I was an E-1 and then I became an O-1, one big difference with the oath of office, as you know, as enlisted, you take the oath to follow the orders of President of the United States and the officers appointed over you, but that line was not in my oath once I became an ensign, right? It's to support and defend the Constitution against all enemy, foreign and domestic. I want to talk about obedience and responsibility. How do you see that? How should leaders think about obedience and responsibility? Well, especially officers.

Especially. So Lieutenant General Roger Turner, He's out west. I learned so much about Roger watching him lead as a task force commander in southern Afghanistan. And, you know, what Roger taught me as a colonel was, with respect to responsibility, you know, is that fault is past tense, responsibility is present tense.

Hmm.

Let me say that again. Fault, fault, who's at fault is past tense. All right. Responsibility is present tense.

Wow.

When you're in a crisis, right, you're in combat, and things go wrong.

Right?

Bad things happen to good units. We know that, right, BZ? It's that commander that understands, that takes responsibility for it. And Roger showed me so much about what that meant, you know, when they had a had a tragic incident in there in his command when he was doing it. And, you know, it looked like it was going to be a blue-hawn dream kill. And, you know, Roger stepped up and took responsibility for it even before he knew what had happened.

Wow.

And, you know, we know in the, in the service, right, you can survive, you can survive some, some bad things that happen in units, right? We've, we've all had Class A mishaps and things like that. But we all know you can't survive the cover-up. And, you know, when, when General Turner stepped up and took responsibility, took accountability for what happened, you know, that's when the first person singular comes out, right? That's when you use first person singular. I, I, we've all worked for those I guys before, and no one wants to work for an I guy. But there's a time for that first person singular. And that's when things go wrong.

Wow.

Responsibility means stepping up there and all right, it's like, hey, sir, I screwed up. I missed this. Right? I failed too.

Hmm.

Success. It's all we, it's all day. It's all, you know, it's either plural, right? Or, or it's, you know, they did great. Yes, sir. They did great. Right? It's not me. Right?

It's them.

Yes. Things go bad. First person singular.

Man, this is probably why some of the best keepers I've ever had throughout my career, people would follow them to the end of the earth. It's incredible when you see that in action. Now, let's talk about your best-selling book, sir, Marine Maxim: Turning Leadership Principles into Practice. And I definitely would like for everybody to get a copy of this book, but Marine Maxim has become, I guess, a leadership staple across the military and beyond. What problem were you trying to solve that existing leadership books weren't really addressing? When you wrote this book?

So, well, the thing about my book, BZ, is actually I started writing it when I was a young cadet here at the Citadel.

Wow.

We were all issued that 3x5 ubiquitous green notebook, right?

Yeah.

You know, Colonel Harrington, actually Colonel Harrington's deputy gave it to me. Colonel Brickton gave me my first green notebook.

Wow.

That became my prized leadership possession. It became my leadership journal. And how it worked was, was simple. Whenever I found myself in proximity to a leader I really respected, whatever it is that individual did that resonated with me, I took some time that night and I journaled it. And I said, you know, if I'm ever— I'm gonna do that. Now, as I said, I've— it was 30 years. So it wasn't all unicorns, rainbows, and parades. I worked for more than my fair share of tools, right? And whenever I worked for that that individual, that Martinet. I took that same book and I flipped it over. I said, you know, if I'm ever in command, I'll never do that. Yeah, after about 16 years, the front of the book met the back of the book. I had more entries in the front than I did in the back. But if I was to be honest, I learned more from the ones in the back than the front. But I had this stream of consciousness. I didn't know what to do with it. So I spent some time, I was just going into battalion command. And as I scribbled it out, it came out to be 50 lessons. Right? 50 maxims. They were all tactical and practical. And I wanted to pay them forward. I wanted to give them to my lieutenants. Well, I know your call sign is— my call sign in the Marine Corps was Mufasa. We don't, we don't give ourselves our own call sign. We know that.

Yes.

I'm reminded he was a good lion. They killed him. But you know, he was a good lion. But my call sign in the Marine Corps, my tank, you you know, was Mufasa. So the outline became known as Mufasa's Maxims. I gave it to my lieutenants, and it— wow, it got passed around the Marine Corps. And after it made a few laps around the, around the operating forces, some folks encouraged me to spend some time and to get it published. So I did the lit review process. And, you know, I retired in May, and the book came out in November. So It's, uh, wow. Disney wasn't confident Mufasa. So we went with, uh, instead of Mufasa's Maxim, we went with Marine Maxim. And yeah, I'm humbled. It's been, uh, it's been on the bestseller list there on Amazon for a while. And yeah, it's actually, um, found an audience in, in a lot of law enforcement. And now the fire services have, uh, have expressed an interest in the book. So again, it's— I try to make it tactical and practical, but most importantly transferable into all different types of questions.

Yes.

Importantly, though, I just gotta say, I throw it out there, but you asked about it, right? None of that stuff in that book's mine.

Yes.

It's all things that I have learned from some remarkable leaders. I try to attribute it the best I can to those individuals. But it's all things that I have learned from, from other people. It's just my way of paying what I've learned from them forward.

Yes. Well, that is really quite amazing, Colonel. I must say one of Mufasa's best maxims for me was Discover and never forget your why. I can't remember who said this, but no, something about the most important thing that happened to someone first is the day they were born, and then the second thing is finding out why they were. I'm not saying it right, but just living on purpose. Who said that, sir?

Ben Franklin.

Ben Franklin. Okay. Because I thought sometimes it's attributed to some other people, but yes, Benjamin Franklin was very Very wise.

It's also been Mark Twain is also—

Yes, Mark Twain was the one I was thinking about. I used to live in Monterey, but yes. But what really gets me there is why is purpose so fragile under success, and how can leaders protect it over a long career? Because there is really nothing like a man, a woman living on purpose.

Right, so, you know, did the quote there about the day you're born and the day you discover your why you're born. You know, Mark Twain. Kevin Kelly, he's the editor of Wired magazine, said your purpose in life is to discover your purpose. He said that's not a paradox, it's actually the way. Now, Marines who know where they're going are a lot easier to lead. Same here with cadets. I like to tell them, you know, if you're going to show up to the Citadel, you need to know your why, because I'm going to put that why to the test. Nietzsche said, a man who knows his why can endure anyhow. So once they have that purpose, I'll tell you, BZ, the most powerful book I've ever read after the Bible was Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. Yes, I think every person should read that book at some point in their life. Ironically, you know, Dr. Frankl discovered his purpose, his meaning in life, in a concentration camp in Poland. Yeah. Auschwitz. As a, as a, as a survivor of the Holocaust, he discovered his why. And what he wrote was, it's not what— he discovered his why when he realized he was asking the wrong question. It's not what do I want from this life? But what does life want from me? Where do my talents intersect with my passion and my talents intersect with the needs of society. So that's what we try to do here at the Citadel. I mean, you talked about suffering and being triggered. Well, we also know that suffering is where the goodness comes from. You know, that's where they're going to figure out, you know, they're going to figure out their purpose, they're going to figure out their meaning, not sitting at home in the AC playing Xbox, right? Figure that out doing, doing hard things. And once you understand what your why is, Everything else, everything else will fall into place. So I spent a lot of time on that, you know, knowing thyself. It's knowing your why. Leaders who are self-aware, right, you know, their why, who are capable of being honest with themselves about themselves, come across as authentic. And everyone wants to follow an authentic leader, right? The video is matching the audio. And that resonates with sailors, that resonates with Marines, that resonates with people.

Yes. Wow. That is powerful. And it looks like we just got an "Hoorah!" I guess the sailors would say, "Ooh, yeah!" It's very, very powerful. What I really get is all of these maxims, really the wisdom you get, these leadership principles are very, very simple. Now, it's not easy to always apply them every day, but it really makes sense. And it is simple and could potentially change the life of a sailor of a Marine. Wow. Now, there's another thing you do in the book. You do emphasize that do hard things, right, as leadership discipline. In today's comfort-oriented culture, what does hard actually mean for modern leaders? Now, this reminds me of something one of my mentors told me, right? You'd rather do work hard today so you have an easy life than have an easy life and then, you know, have a very, very hard life as you grow older. What does it mean to really do hard things?

The thing about doing hard things, BC, especially when you're young, it's a life hack. Yes, it literally remaps your brain. Now, I'm not smart enough to talk to you about the neuroplasticity of the human brain. There's a lot of stuff out there. If you've— if your readers, if your listeners are interested into it, there's no shortage of research on it. What I do know is, is that when you give a young person a challenge, when you provide— when a young person faces adversity, they overcome that adversity, they overcome that challenge, they build resiliency. How do you build resiliency? How do you build resolve in an 18-year-old? It's not rocket science. You give that person a challenge, make them overcome that challenge. Wash, rinse, and repeat. The young men and women who graduate from the Citadel leave here with a deep well of resiliency and resolve.

Why?

Because they've done some really hard things. Being a freshman down here, being a knob at the Citadel in August in Charleston, South Carolina, it's hard. It's the hardest thing that they've ever done. But wow, when you do hard things like that in your youth, it remaps your brain. You no longer think about adversity as something to be avoided. You think of adversity, you think of obstacles as something to be overcome.

Right?

Yes, they're drawn to it. They're drawn to it. You know, a lot of stoicism in there. I think you're gonna go to that a little later on. But yes, Marcus Aurelius, you know, the obstacle is the way. The obstacle is the way.

That is really powerful. I was looking back, I have a book by David, I think if we military man has read this book. I can't find it right now, but I will in a moment. But definitely stoicism is something that is pretty much taught throughout all of the military branches. I think it has a lot of applicability even today. And I think your maxim in your book, they do draw from Stoic philosophy, scripture, and lived experience. Why do ancient frameworks still outperform modern leadership fads today, you think, sir?

If it worked 2,000 years ago, and they're still talking about it today, chances are that they were on to something, right? So I see you have a lot of books on your shelf. Yeah, I have a lot of books behind me. They're stacked up all around the floor here. You can't see them right now. But I always find when I was doing the lit review for my book, when I was— I always find my next book in the worksite of the book that I'm reading. You know, I was trying to pull on that taproot to figure out, well, where's, where's the true original source? Where did this stuff come from?

Yes.

Back in the Stoics, you know, reading Epictetus and Seneca and Marcus Aurelius. And it's so trans— it's so transferable, right? You know, one of my themes here is the commandant, you know, with the freshmen is that the secret to getting through the fourth class system is easy. All you have to do is two things, you know, one more, one more time.

Hmm.

One more, one more time. That's all.

You want to quit?

No problem.

Quit tomorrow.

One more. That's all I'm looking for. All I need is one more.

Yes.

But the other one, right, which is probably more profound, right, is the ability to control the controllables. Yeah, tell the freshmen all the time, control the controllables. When you learn how to control the controllables, you'll become invincible. And I break that down for them. See, at the Citadel, the young men show up here, we shave their luscious locks. Yes, boys and the girls, they give up, you know, they give up some freedom of movement, right? They give up some agency. They no longer have to decide what time they're going to get up, what they're going to do, what they're going to wear. All those decisions are made for them.

Yeah.

They, however, retain agency over 4 things. There are 4 things that they will always have control over. They always have control over their preparation, their effort, their attitude, and their response. Everything else is out of their control. Bust their butt, prepare for an inspection, fail the inspection— they have no control over that. They have control over their attitude and their response, right? But they have no control over that. And I tell them, when you can learn how to be indifferent to indifferent things, not to be dismayed by things that are outside of your control, not to worry about things that aren't in your control, you're invincible.

You're invincible.

Just focus on those 4 things. So fast forward to the end of the year, they in March, the end of March, we do this big record, they do a gauntlet kind of recognition ceremony. And then I pull them all together and I give them the hard truth. And I said, hey, you know, for the past year, I've been telling you to control the controllables. That's what you can only control. Your freshman year. So the hard truth of that is, is that those are the only 4 things you control in life.

Hmm.

Those are the only 4 things you can control in life that the Stoics call the dichotomy of control. Right? You want to know why there's so many mental health issues, why there's so much anxiety in this world today is people are trying to control things that are outside of their control.

Hmm.

Just focus. If you learn to distinguish what you can control and what you can't, and only focus on the things that you have control over, Yes. You're invincible.

Wow, that is so powerful. Control the controllable. Wow. So you also write that character is built through habits, not heroic moments. What daily or weekly habits most reliably strengthen Elie de Haussmann's campus?

You know, we talked at the beginning there about character failures, right? And the truth is, just like character is not built in a heroic moment, You know, character failures aren't, you know, aren't a single incident. Yeah, it's, it's a bunch of— it's hundreds of little decisions that you don't think are consequential. But the truth is, it's— you're on a path, right? You're, you're on, you're on a path. Samson, right? Samson was on a path.

So what I try to do is I try to King David too, right, with Bathsheba. Yeah.

Amen. We all need our Nathan, right? We all need a Nathan. But the thing about— the thing about the path, right, the thing about how do I lay a course of action, some discipline, is I have my daily 5, right? So if you work for me, you're required to do 5 things every single day, right? You're required to Find a Marine, or in this case, a cadet doing a good job and thank them. We want to be grateful every day, right? So we want to reinforce that, find someone doing a good job and thank them. Right. Second thing we have to do is find a problem and fix it. Wow. There's no— sure, doesn't take long.

You've granted—

you see those problems a lot. And the first part of your tenure, you don't see as many the last part of your tenure. That's a different conversation. But you know, our job as leaders is to continually improve. So go out there and find a problem and fix it. Second thing you need to do is to teach somebody something. The third thing you need to do is learn something. And the fourth thing— excuse me, the fifth thing is ask how you can help.

Wow.

I always catch my leaders, right? I'm not the guy that watches the parking lot to see who's leaving on time. But I do try to, you know, do my last battlefield circulation towards the end of the day. And, and I'll ask my leaders, I said, hey, give me a readback. They know what I'm asking for. They know what I'm asking for is give me what Marine, what cadet was doing a good job. And you know, what problem did you fix today? And if I have 5 things, I don't care if it's 1,400, you know, if it's 2,000, you're going back in there because your duty is not done until you've knocked out those daily 5. So I think that's a way of, you know, trying to build that by a constructive habit.

Man, I could be talking with you for hours and hours. So it looks like we only have a couple of minutes left. I can't believe I've I don't manage my time very well today. Okay, but let me ask you this, if I may. What do you think is the greatest lesson you have ever learned, just in leadership, in life in general?

Wow, that's a— the greatest lesson?

One of the greatest lessons.

Okay, all right. Yeah, it's not about me.

Powerful.

It's not about me. I don't chase success, right? The thing about success is it's never satisfying.

Yes.

For me, it's, you know, I wanted to do something significant and I couldn't imagine doing anything more significant than investing, you know, in the future, right? In these future leaders. Right. You know, I didn't make General Officer, BZ, in the Marine Corps. But looking back now, I can smile because I think I had a part to play in making quite a few general officers. It was never about me, right? It was investing in the future, investing in leaders. Paying it forward. That to me is the most important thing.

Well, that's definitely what you do with your work, sir, that is going to outlive you. We have a question from the audience. I really love questions from the audience because when I first did this, sir, 5 years ago, episode 1, it was an audience of me, myself, and I. Nobody was talking to me. Nobody was adding comment or asking questions. So I'm really excited when I see this. So Ronald Velasec says, the Citadel has recently introduced the traffic light system for generative AI. To maintain academic honor. Beyond just preventing plagiarism, how do you see AI affecting the character-building aspect of the fourth-class system? In an era of instant AI-generated solution, how do we preserve the hard way that is so central to the Citadel experience? Well, that's a great question.

That is a great question. Hey, appreciate that, JR. So the stoplight analogy is so the different professors, as part of their syllabus, will— if it's a green light, they're allowed to use whatever AI they they want to. You're going to find that in our engineering department, in our STEM side. We want our engineers to be able to, to use AI because it's going to help them develop better solutions. There was a time where people were upset that we were moving from the slide ruler to the calculator, right? That's where we are right now. This is a revolutionary step forward, especially for the STEM. Now you're going to see those red lights over there in the humanities the Humanities Department is not going to be really excited about how much generative AI you use, you know, on your English paper.

Yes.

Because that's not original thought. That's plagiarism. So we go back to making those decisions, those internal decisions, right? Those hard— those easy right— excuse me, those easy wrong versus hard right decisions. What we try to we must continually do that. And that's going to be the human dynamic in that AI is never going to replace that, you know, having the Corps lead the Corps, having them wrestle with these internal conflicts that they have, the human dynamic. There's a lot— I call those 5 battalions over there my 5 leadership labs. We had— I know you're wrapping this up. And I'll just, I'll end with this quick little vignette. But we had Amazon Web Services, AWS, came down to do an executive offsite. They picked the Citadel campus. I don't know if they knew much about the Citadel. It was clear no one in that group had ever spent any time in uniform, but it's an iconic location and they wanted to come down and learn a little about leadership and enjoy Charleston. And after I spoke to them, one of the VPs asked me, she goes, "What does the commandant do?" And I looked at her and I smiled and I said, I underwrite the risk of well-intentioned failure. What does that mean? I said, I supervise an organization of 2,300 18- to 22-year-olds trying to self-govern. I deal with failure every day. My job is to make sure that I have the bumper rails of life up there to make sure no one gets hurt, right? And none of our failed leadership experience spill outside. But we've been talking about this this whole podcast. Right?

Yes.

Making those tough decisions, being— it's this relationship thing, having them figure it out, how to hold their peers accountable. There's— ChatGPT can't help them with that.

Yes. Wow.

There's, there's no, there's no solution there. They have to figure that out. That's the human dynamic.

Wow. This is, uh, okay, technically we are out of time, sir. Can you give me 5 more minutes? If not, I completely understand. Okay. Okay, I am so, so grateful. I could be talking to you for another hour or two. One question I do have to ask you: what do you believe is the secret of your success? You are a bestselling author, colonel in the US Marine Corps, and all of the work you've done, Commandant at the Citadel. Why do you think you've been so successful in life, sir?

The secret of my success? My wife. I'm serious. I'm serious. I met, I met and I married the most beautiful woman in Charleston 33 years ago, but she is so much more beautiful on the inside than the outside. She's my ultimate Spartan spouse. There's a maxim in my book all about Spartan spouses and how important they are. But she's my secret weapon down here. She is. She's, she's the knob whisperer. She's the parent whisperer. She just, you know, whenever I have a cadet in the hospital or something bad happens, you know, she's just there. She's, she's just there. She's, she's the best part of me. She keeps me grounded.

I must, I must follow up.

She keeps me grounded. You know, that humility thing, you know, Mike Tyson, you know. Yeah, she's my Mike Tyson. She, she has beat humility into me.

Yeah, I think myself, I got a pretty big head once I became a commander because it was a lifelong dream. Because it's a long, long story, but it took me 4 trials to be admitted in the, uh, US Navy. First, no, it was because I wasn't US citizen and I didn't have a green card. Just obstacle after obstacle. But eventually I became an officer, and eventually I became a commander. And when I came back home, my wife is like, "Okay, you may be a commander out there, but right here, Bob Fabien Zinga, sit down and shut up." I'm like, "Yes, ma'am." So that was a great experience. But I must follow that up, sir. What do you think is the secret of your marriage? In America, even for those who are Christian or not, it's about 50% of marriages end up in divorce. You've been married for a long time. Why do you think that's still the case, sir?

Don't marry— do not marry a person that makes you happy. Marry a person that you enjoy making happy.

Wow.

And you will never be unhappy.

That is so my—

so my wife and I kind of have— we have this agreement where we both try to run to the back of the line. We always try to put the other person first. So if, if me making my wife happy makes me happy, Yes.

Wow.

Okay. Very, very insightful. Thank you so much for sharing that, sir. So we do need to land this plane down. I've already used more than 5 minutes of your time now. But I do want to ask you this. If you had one and only one day to live, what would you have liked your final contribution to be, sir?

Say that again, please.

If you only had one day to live.

Only one day?

My final contribution.

These are like 40-way questions here. Yeah, you know, if I had to, if I only had one day to live, you know, first and foremost, I'd make sure I was square with my maker, right? I was square with my maker. And most importantly, you know, it's because I know there's nothing that I can do can get me into the afterlife, you know. It's all about him. So yeah, I just make sure that I was square with him, all right? Because how much I love him.

And if you had a magic wand, you could solve any problem at all, what is the one problem you'd like to solve first thing tomorrow morning?

You know, we live in a divided nation. We live in a divided nation. And we, we need leaders that can bring it together.

Yes.

Yes. I know, I like to say that what we— developing men and women of virtue and character is a national security imperative. Yes, we have that. We have a character crisis in this country. And it's a crisis of trust. And that it's, it's an existential threat to our democracy. Right. So the military's got no business in politics. I don't talk politics. Having an apolitical military is the most important thing in the world. But we do need to develop men and women of virtue and character that can bring these two sides together. Right. The other side is not our enemy. Right. They're not our enemy. And that's what makes democracies great, is being able to bring disparate groups together and find compromise. So that would be the one thing that I love this country, Fizi. I know you do too. We both dedicated our best years in defense of. So yeah. I just think that we'll bring our country together when we can develop, when we can produce leaders, you know, men and women of character that will put character and country first before party.

So you also are, because people from my generation were definitely marked by 9/11, part of the reason why I joined. And 9/11 was terrible, but 9/12 was the best day of my life as a resident of the United States of America. America. Never seen such unity and brotherhood and patriotism in my entire life. And hopefully we're going to get back to that as a country.

Wow.

All right, so we are toward the, the end, and that's when I ask, sir, what can we do for you? How can we add value back to you?

Oh, BZ, this was a great opportunity. As I said, I love to have opportunity to talk leadership. You're welcome to follow me there on, on LinkedIn. The Corps gets a thought of the day from me every day. I try to retransmit those thoughts of the day on, on LinkedIn and some of the social media platforms. And hey, you go ahead and buy yourself a copy of Marine Maxims. You can find it anywhere and just pay it forward.

Well, thank you so much for your time, sir. And I like to leave on a very positive note. What is one thing you are optimistic about? Tomorrow. It's a good one. Okay, and the very last question, and this is it, and thanks again for giving us an extra 10 minutes. I really do appreciate that. Uh, what is one word that, uh, express, uh, how you feel about, uh, this, uh, podcast we've just completed today?

It was inspiring. It was inspiring. I, I— you do a great job, Bizzy. I love how you, you pull this whole thing together, and I'm blown away about how much stuff that you've been able to pull together on me. I said I'm humbled. I'm humbled. This has been a lot of fun.

Thank you so much.

Great questions. You ask great questions.

Yeah, I am so humble and really, really grateful for your time and your wisdom. I wish we had another hour, but I know you have to go, sir. Thank you so much for your service to our outstanding country and definitely for the legacy you leave behind. And everybody needs to get a copy of Marian Maxim. Hopefully you are working on your next book, sir. And thank you for your great service. I appreciate that, sir.

Thanks, Bizzy. Stay well.

Thank you. Well, everybody, this is one for the book. So, great, great thanks to Ian Carnell. He spent an extra 15 minutes with us. I'm very, very grateful for that. So, again, I want everybody to please follow him on LinkedIn and get a copy of the book, "Meringue Maxim." And also, this book that he mentioned, this is one of the most recommended books on this podcast. Since last year, it's been recommended at least 8 times by 8 different guests. "Man's Search for Meaning." So I definitely want everybody to read this book also. All right, that's all I have for today. And I should have more guests next week. And as of tomorrow, we're gonna continue our special edition on the Book of Proverbs. This is not a religious podcast. It's something I used to do when I was a teenager. And when I got married, my wife and I would read the book of Proverbs every January. Every day we read one chapter. It's 31 chapters. So we're going to end this January 31st. What we are looking for is ancient wisdom and leadership lessons from the book of Proverbs. We did Proverbs chapter 23 this morning, and tomorrow we're going to do chapter 24 until we finish the book at the end of the month. Okay, that's all I have for you. Thanks so much for watching and have a wonderful day. And I hope that you've taken something very valuable out of this podcast today. Thanks again. Appreciate that. Bye for now.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.