S5:E30🎙️ LIVE with LT Andrew “Sri” Sridhar, U.S. Navy (Vet) (Multi Tracks Audio)

Hi, I'm John Maxwell. When the top companies in the world are looking for trainers, speakers, and coaches, there's one name that stands above the rest, and that's Maxwell Leadership. Our certified team members have gotten proven results for companies all over the globe, and our reputation, I'm proud to say, is second to none. Some of our members have risen to the top of their profession, including the one you're going to meet today. I proudly introduce you to my friend Bob Fabien Zinga.

Welcome to the Leadership Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ, where we help you lead with purpose and succeed with impact. If you're ready to grow into the kind of leader others want to follow, this podcast is for you. If you're determined to elevate your success and leave a lasting legacy, this podcast is for you. As my mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell, reminds us, everything rises and falls on leadership. Our goal is simple: to inspire you, challenge you, and equip you with insights that can transform the trajectory of your leadership journey. Welcome aboard to another episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast with Coach BZ.

Sometimes you just got to go to your happy place. It's kind of a cheesy phrase these days, where I think we forget the value of actually going there, but then harnessing that in our tough moments. So I'm actually back home now in the Daytona Beach area of Florida, Ormond Beach, where I grew up. Here's the river behind me. And I've been here since yesterday, got up at 3:40 AM and flew out of DC. And I just have a great sense of just calm, you coming back home, probably for everybody it's that way. Plus it helps that it's sunny and there's lots of nature around. But here's my exhortation to you this weekend, especially as it's fall in a lot of places, to try and just harness that calm energy. Because ultimately, high performers, a lot of times we want to just kind of grit through stuff, put our head through a brick wall and just go, go, go. But the reality is success is sustained performance, and it takes a lot of calm to make that happen.

All right everyone, thanks so much for joining us for this special edition of the Leadership Success podcast. I have a very special guest today. Now I am broadcasting from an undisclosed location right now. I hope the internet is good. But so for our moment of gratitude for those who've been following the show this entire month, I've really been grateful for Black History Month. And today we really have a military hero. His name is Eugene Jack Bullard. He's the very first African American fighter pilot. Actually, last time I was in Paris, they actually have a museum there and they honor him. So I am very excited about this, but Mr. Bullard, almost 25 years before the Tuskegee Airmen soared into history, Eugene Jack Bullard was already in the sky over Europe. It just has a very fascinating story. Okay, so that's what I am grateful for today. And now let me see if I can introduce our guest today. I am really honored, fired up, and privileged to welcome a combat-tested leader, elite performance coach, and builder of high-ownership teams. I'm talking about Lieutenant Andrew Osreda. He's a US Navy SEAL veteran, also known as Sri, former Navy SEAL officer, Harvard MBA, AI product executive, and founder of the Warrior Poet. From leading combat operations in Iraq to driving machine learning innovation at Amazon, Wayfair, and Capital One, to coaching executives on building self-driving teams that execute without constant oversight. Really, Andrea embodies the fusion of battlefield-tested leadership and boardroom execution. So this is going to be a very powerful conversation on resilience, ownership, trust, and leading under pressure. So ladies and gentlemen, without any further ado, please help me welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast, Andrew Frieda. Hey, how are you doing today? Good morning.

I'm great, morning. Thanks for that very generous introduction. Awesome to be here.

Fantastic, we are so excited to be here. And like I was telling you, my mentor Joel is right here and he said good morning, Bizzy. So I'm sure he's gonna have a question for you. And we also have Robert Adams. Oh yeah, all right, so I know this is a sailor, not a marine. Thank you for being here. Please Let us know where you are joining us from, what city, what state, and if outside of the US, which country. And of course, if you have a question for Sri, please type it in the comment. We will try to answer those questions live. So to get started, Andrew, uh, what is one thing you are grateful for today?

I am grateful that the sun is shining and it's over 40 degrees here in the Washington, DC area. So for For those who have not been living on the East Coast of the United States, north of— I don't know, let's call it South Carolina. Uh, we've just been trapped in ice and snow for, um, seemingly forever. And, um, you know, it's not, uh, just so some people in, in northern climes don't scoff at us, um, it's not just snow. It's not that we can't handle that or that we can't hold cold. It was just— it was a crazy amount of ice. And it's just, it's just starting to go away, but there's still mountains of ice on the road and everywhere else, but it's, it's getting better. And so yesterday it was 40 degrees when I went out to pick up some lunch, and, uh, wow, I decided to wear flip-flops because it was, it felt so warm compared to single digits, which is what we had for a while.

Wow, that's, uh, something. Actually, I am in Atlanta now. I am speaking at the security conference, so I'm not in the comfort of my home studio and super fast internet speed, but I think this is working so far. All right. And also, is there maybe something about you, Sree, that most people do not know when they first meet you?

Probably a lot. I am the oldest of 7 kids.

Wow.

So that's something. And there really is something to birth order I remember being in business school and all the wives of the MBA students, they all at the same time were reading this book called The Birth Order Book. Not a very clever title, but it's very descriptive. So I'll give it to them for simplicity. And a lot of people who go get MBAs, especially at top-tier universities, tend to be firstborns. And I kind of scoffed at the book and everything, but You know, once you become familiar with a lot of the trends of birth order, then, um, you, you start to be able to read people and like, oh, you're an only child. Oh, you're a youngest child. Oh, you're a middle child. Um, and I can definitely tell the firstborns. We can smell our own. Um, and then the other thing is that I'm half Indian. Um, my, my mom, uh, German-Irish Catholic. Um, and my dad was from India. And so I, I'm kind of a— I have a miscellaneous ethnicity look. Um, it's because of the part Indian.

Well, that is, uh, America. I, uh, really love this, no, e pluribus unum. And, uh, that's definitely the America I believe in, the reason why I joined the US Navy 21 years ago after 9/11. And, uh, hopefully that's the America we are going to, uh, preserve. But, uh, that is really great, great to know. Yes. So, uh, Just to get started, maybe you can tell us briefly about your leadership background, how you got to become who you are today. Especially don't miss out about your adventure with the Navy SEALs because you guys are just crazy. Like this year, for example, how in the world do you guys do this? I mean, when I was at boot camp, I used to see the SEALs and all of that. I mean, it's so dangerous and daring, but, uh, you definitely are the, the best of the best. I think, uh, you have to have a certain mindset, I believe, to, to be wanting to join the SEAL or any of the special operation forces. But, uh, we definitely owe you a lot. Somebody has to do it. It's not me, but, uh, thank God for people like, like you, crazy enough to do it.

Anyway, yeah, well, no, I mean, thank you for your service too. And I know there's a lot of members of the audience as well who served, and, um, I and other SEALs get a lot of, uh, you know, thanks from other veterans and a little bit of, um, what reads as, uh, maybe imposter syndrome. People will say like, oh, like, I did this, but I didn't do what you did. I, I would encourage all vets to just not go there, right? You served. And like, that's extremely valuable and we have different paths. And so it's not about what I did or anybody else did and comparing against each other. Um, there's nothing better or worse about it. It's different paths we took. Um, and, and sometimes luck plays a role as well. Sorry for the tangent here, but sometimes luck plays a role as well. There's plenty of people who wanted to become SEALs. Um, who, if they were an officer, maybe they didn't get accepted in because it's a very selective pool to get, get in as an officer even to start at the finish line. And so I lucked out. I was on a ship first and, um, eventually got a LAT transfer package, lateral transfer package approved. Um, but I, you know, I, part of that was me, but part of that was just, but just luck, right? And then if, uh, for a lot of the enlisted folks who, who go through as well as officers you could get an injury at some point in training and have to exit training, um, you know, permanently, and then maybe, maybe not get to go back, or maybe your injury prevents. So there's a lot of luck. So let's just stop the comparison and let's just be all glad that we served, um, yes, and take those lessons to other people. So, uh, I really credit the start of my leadership journey to my parents and, and growing up again as the oldest of 7 children. And so my youngest sister is 14 years younger than me. It was 3 of us boys, 4 girls. And with babies in the house all the time, at some point the older kids need to step up, um, voluntold would be the term of art that a lot of U.S. military folks are familiar with. So, uh, I got voluntold that I was going to help out with all manner of things, including changing diapers and feeding babies their bottles. And like, you know, like, yeah, the first or second time you like hold a baby and feed the bottle, like, it's all cute and you love it. But like, you know, when it's a job, like, uh, you know, um, so I was, I was parentified in the, um, mental health terminology from an early age. But that, that was huge in just accepting responsibility for others and being selfless, working hard. And so that, as well as my dad, like many immigrants, extremely patriotic, right? More patriotic and more knowledgeable about US history than most Americans are. Yes. And so that was an inspiration for me to take an interest in the military. And then—

Wow.

Saw the adventurous things and, and the leadership opportunities that were available in the military, I was, I was hooked. So it was just a matter of kind of where I, where I went at that point. I'll pause because I've been rambling for a little while now.

No, no, this is, this is a really, uh, wonderful, uh, to know. And thank you also for— I didn't know that you actually did a lot, uh, transfer to becoming a SEAL, because I, I must If I have to guess, it must be a very, very small number of officers who are allowed to do a lot of transfer into the SEAL teams because, uh, no, again, it's not to say that your service is more important than others, but you guys are just different, right? You do things that most of us would never dare to do. But anyway, like I say, someone has to do it. I'm just glad it is not me because that's definitely not Oh, I am, I am, I am, Bill, but, uh, it's, but, but you are also right. Right. Everybody who served, even those who may have only served for one day, to me, they are veterans. They are heroes because it's less than what, 2% of people now who join the US military, you really volunteer to serve. And that's, that's, that's a very big deal, no matter what you do in the service, regardless of the branch. So I definitely want to salute and celebrate that. So what, what did, uh, birds and seal training kind of teach you about yourself that no classroom or corporate world ever could? Great question.

Um, well, I'll, I'll throw in the Naval Academy as well because I think it's part and parcel. I learned a ton about leadership through the Naval Academy, and that was integral to my journey to who I am today leadership-wise. What did those things teach me about myself? Um, like, in a, in a way, in a way, I, I don't know if SEAL training, at least the BUD/S, which is the hardest part It's technically 6 months, but there's about 6 weeks before that. So let's call it 7.5 months of, you know, challenges, bootcamp-style challenges, just ramped up to the max, right? And it's never-ending. And people compare it to getting kicked in the nuts like every day, all day for 6 months, 7.5 months.

And my understanding is they give you an opportunity to quit every single day, right?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. There's never, uh, you're never in doubt that you are able to quit, let's put it that way. Um, but in a way, it doesn't teach you much at all. Um, it reveals the people who are trainable, as one instructor put it, um, in advanced training. You know, we get, we get to advanced training and he's like, you guys don't know anything. It's just you. And we know now that you're trainable.

Uh, wow.

And so, you know, that's a, that's a skills focus that I just highlighted there. But in a way, like, I, I, I hate to speculate about other guys who made it or didn't make it, but I know the guys who made it, uh, quite well and were very much alike in many ways, right? And I don't think there's many guys who make it through SEAL training who were wondering in the beginning if they had what it took.

Wow. Yeah, that, that mindset. And I like to say that you are trainable because I think really being coachable, trainable is one of the master keys for success. I think sometimes we tend to drift, especially as you get more and more responsibility and you get more authority within your organization and you start to get a big head, oh, I know so much, I am so, so, so special and better than anyone else. But the truth is, as a leader, the number one lesson I've learned is you have to lead with humility. Your job is to serve, not to be served, right? And you need to be able to listen to people, even especially in an organization like the military where we have a very clear chain of command. The people at the very bottom of the chan, you absolutely need to listen to them because your job is to allow them to do their job. Anyway, that is what I've learned, so I'm really glad you mentioned that. But during birth training, as a siang, was there ever a moment where you felt like you were challenged to the limit of human possibility, where you were so tired and your body just didn't seem like it could go one extra inch, but I don't know, maybe you found some type of spiritual reserve or strength or something beyond, uh, your human limitation that just allowed you to keep going forward and complete the training. Did you have any experience like that?

Yeah, um, almost every day. I mean, pretty much every day. Um, the saying is, as many of your audience is probably familiar, the, the only day— sorry, the only easy day was yesterday. There's a sign that says that on the, what's called the grinder at BUD/S, which is, uh, an asphalt surface. And there's, um, you know, flippers, uh, or what is it, boots there, uh, on the, on the grinder. And kind of that's where you go every morning at whatever it is, 4:30 AM, 4 AM, something like that in the beginning of BUD/S to, you know, start doing your push-ups and flutter kicks and everything else until you can't do them anymore. Um, wow. But, you know, every day has its own challenges in BUD/S, and I mean, arguably in life too, um, if you— yes, if you decide to make it that way. Um, And so there were countless times where, um, your body and your mind just don't want to go any farther, but you have to, have to push through. And, um, some of those things can be, uh, taught in terms of resilience and grit and mental fortitude and self-belief. I think self-worth and self-belief are underrated in this sphere. Um, but other things, I, it's hard to know how to teach those.

Yeah.

I just knew, and, um, I think the, the rest of my class knew who graduated, like I, I would, I was gonna die before leaving that beach voluntarily.

Hmm. Wow. That's determination. What, what did you think you really learned through that experience? What did it teach you?

I think it does show someone what they— that, that they can keep going, right? I mean, in a way, like I said, uh, I do believe that all of us knew that in the beginning, but it's one thing to know that rationally and one thing to— and, and believe it, and another thing to demonstrate it, right, and prove that you can keep going. Um, the other thing that it shows you in a similar way, which you already know, but, um, just how strong the bonds of brotherhood, um, you know, and eventually sisterhood, um, can be. Um, because a huge part of BUD/S is, is teamwork. I mean, we call it the Teams, capital T, for sure, you know, short, uh, to say the SEAL Teams. Like, it's all about the team in everything you do, and it's all about your swim buddy and your boat crew. And, um, you have to get through it, you know, individually, but you're there with your team all the time supporting them, sacrificing for them. And there's, there's moments in BUZZ where everyone got help, like meaningful help from their team. Um, so to experience that level of, um, elite performance and gelling as a team, both in BUD/S and then afterwards, especially on our deployments. It's a level of just teamwork and dedication that most people can't imagine.

Well, thanks so much for sharing that because I think teamwork really makes the dream work. I guess it reminds me of the Marines leadership model, right? No one left behind. You, you really do see that in practice. I'm talking about teamwork. Was there maybe a defining leadership moment during your deployment that you think maybe permanently shaped how you lead today?

In terms of— well, I'm going to answer the question a little bit of a different way. In that, um, it's hard to say there was one moment on a deployment where it shaped how I view teamwork because it's just a confluence of factors, just countless data points of how teams work. It's hard to pin it down to one event where I was like, oh, aha, like I get it now, or this is how I'm gonna lead from now on, right? Um, but I'll, I'll, I'll take a different tack, which is, um, that there's an element of sometimes you're the follower, uh, sometimes you're the commander, and sometimes you're the micromanager out of necessity.

Yes.

And balancing all those things is difficult. So in, um, I deployed to Iraq in 2005 and 2007. 2005, we protected the Vice President of Iraq. There were two vice presidents there. Um, so one of them, and, um, we did some normal SEAL operations during that deployment as well. And then in 2007, um, was back in Iraq, um, for a joint task force doing missions all over. And in 2007, uh, especially, uh, it was, it was lots of operations that like frequently ended up in firefights that were, that were pretty heavy. Um, and I should say we ended up losing 3 guys on that deployment, uh, due to an improvised— thank you— an improvised explosive device, a specific one called an explosively formed projectile, EFP, um, that basically is a shaped charge that projects molten metal at its target. Um, and we lost 3 heroes that day, um, Jason Lewis, Steve Doherty, and Bobby McCrell. Um, and so, uh, but anyway, we were, we were on those deployments in these heavy firefights. And in, in a firefight, especially in an open space, anyone in the SEAL Teams at that point can make a call, a tactical call. And because the importance is, hey, we trust everyone to know what to do, number one, um, to exercise sound judgment, to have patience and not panic, yeah, to have each other's back. And, and everyone also, in addition to that, can see other things that others don't see. So someone might be pinned down where they can't even pick their head up to see the battlefield, right? Um, other people might be on a little elevation, they can see more, right? Other people might see some cover behind us that others don't see, etc., right? So, um, and then the last thing is it's important to get out of that ambush zone, that off that X. Like, the X is because there— if you're in an ambush, there are overlapping fields of fire from the enemy, right? The whole Even people who aren't in the military know, like, about flanking maneuvers, right? The whole idea is that you are getting your target, uh, force from multiple sides.

Yeah.

Um, and so you need to get out of that. If, if this is the enemy and you're here, you need to get out of that X as fast as you can. So, um, everyone is empowered to make that tactical call. And so me as the, uh, commander on, uh, many of those operations, um, about half we did in 2007. Um, you know, it wasn't up to me to make that call most of the time. I mean, in fact, like, I can't recall a single time when we were in an open area where I made the tactical call about which way we go and how we get out of there. Um, and granted, like, you know, it's not just me and a bunch of junior guys, right? There are senior enlisted folks there who, you know, their main job is is to manage the tactics, whereas as a, as a commander or any officer out there, your job is more, um, command and control, the strategic stuff, you know, make sure— making sure you've got air assets and, and kind of managing the, um, a little bit of the, the bigger picture rather than, you know, how you're clearing a room or what building you're entering next and things like that. So, okay, so that's the follower piece. Um, I talked about the Commander piece a little bit. I won't dwell on that. We can talk about that more. Sometimes you need to micromanage out of necessity. So Steve Jobs was famous for micromanaging certain aspects, right? I never worked for him. I didn't know him. I actually posted something on LinkedIn today about, uh, Steve Jobs, um, with Kevin O'Leary, AKA Mr. Wonderful from Shark Tank, talking about him on, on Diary of a CEO. So, um, it's, it's an insightful clip from someone who knew Steve Jobs. I didn't know him.

Yes.

So I don't know that he micromanaged the wrong things or the right things, but we're all familiar with accounts. He probably did more than most would. But hey, his success shows. In my 2007 deployment, I developed my own view of micromanagement, which is twofold. One is, What I tell coaching clients and audiences is that rule number 1 is you are the micromanager, meaning everyone thinks they're not the micromanager. Have you ever met someone who micromanages who recognizes they're the micromanager? No, never.

No.

Never, right? And in the event that they either are self-aware enough or someone tells them, "Hey, you're really controlling this thing," they always have a rationalization. They always say, "It's just this once," or, "I have special expertise that they don't have," or, "I'm just trying to help," or yada, yada, yada, or, "This time is different. This is like an urgent situation. I'm not like this," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So rule number 1 is you are the micromanager, but rule number 2 is Like, sometimes something is so critical that you're not doing your job if you don't have your head and nose and hands in the weeds a little bit. So, um, I can't go into the exact, uh, tactic due to sensitivity that, that we were doing, but it required a lot of navigation in vehicles. And I remember, um, another SEAL who got, uh, killed on a different deployment. Um, such an awesome dude. Uh, Nicholas Czech, Nick Czech.

Um, he was our navigator.

Yeah, thank you. Um, such an awesome guy. Um, he, uh, he was our navigator in 2007, and, um, you know I would sit down with him and literally plan every turn in a certain area, like every route. And I would just draw, you know, and a lot of times it wasn't, it wasn't, you know, sometimes like I would do the suggesting in the beginning, like I would draw the route that I wanted to take. Obviously I listened to him and it was a collaborative effort, but, um, you know, that is really unusual. I don't think anyone in BUD/S or my advanced training or, you know, there might be SEALs out here who hear this and they're like, that's crazy. Like, what is an, you know, O3/ground force commander doing that for? That's not your job, right? But like, for this particular thing, we had failed, and it wasn't Nick's fault, but we had failed at achieving our objective multiple times. And I, in my bones, I knew there was a better way to do this. And so I was gonna make sure that we weren't risking people's lives over and over and over again, our own lives and potentially civilians out there, and not achieving our target, like, for nothing. And so, you know, sometimes it makes sense to, you know, walk the proverbial shop floor ask people what they're doing and suggest some changes, right? Like, there's a chain of command for a reason, but like sometimes you just— it's on you because it is mission critical.

Wow, that's, that's a great perspective. Now again, we are really grateful for anybody who served any branches of service for any length of time, and for most of us, we are definitely at risk compared to our civilian counterparts, just for being in the military. But definitely you guys, special operations, SEALs, you are at much, much greater risk. Like, for somebody like me who's an information warfare commander, we are just stay back and make sure you get all of the communication and everything is secure, but not really in the heat of battle, at least not as often as you guys are. So I guess you are living in life and death environments. And you've already mentioned you've at least lost, uh, 4 of your brothers in arms. I mean, that, that must really be something that impacts you for the rest of your life. Even as a commanding officer, I have sent orders to send some people in some combat zone. Knocking on wood, so far everybody I've sent has always come back in, in one piece. But how did that responsibility, that heaviness, really transform your perspective on accountability and ownership.

Yeah, I mean, I just want to, um, acknowledge, uh, first that, um, I lost a lot more than, than 4 brothers, um, you know, and, and, and sisters as well. So, um, yeah, it's a, it's a lot. I, I remember, uh, talking with, um, Chris, our, our heir officer in 2007 after we lost those 3 guys. And, um, the whole— my whole, uh, team was out. They had just sustained these casualties and they had to bring the, um, bring the downed vehicle and the rest of the convoy to a nearby forward operating base elsewhere in Baghdad. So they couldn't come back because the, the vehicle that got hit was so badly damaged. Um, and, uh, the, the driver of that vehicle, Kyle, um, he ended up driving that vehicle even though he had molten metal in one of his knees. Um, literally just powering through because it's what needed to be done. He won the Silver Star for that, much deserved. Um, amazing, amazing guy. Um, and, uh But I remember being there with, with Chris because they couldn't come back. So I'm at breakfast the next morning after, after all this happened, uh, trying to internalize it. And, um, somehow, I don't know if it was Chris who brought it up, you know, it's kind of like, well, like, how many, how many people have each of us lost?

Wow.

It's like at some point it's like you lose count. Like, I, I don't know, man. I know the names, I know the faces, but like, it's not like I'm sitting down on a regular basis counting, uh, yeah, a lot. And I, you know, and then some guys, you know, serve for 25, 30 years in the SEAL Teams with insane amount of combat deployments, um, so, so they've— their, their numbers are just even higher. And, and frankly, also, I know I'm going on a tangent here, BZ, I apologize to you in the audience, but no, please. But veteran suicide is, is real, right? Or not even veteran, I mean, active duty sometimes as well. And there's a handful of those guys that, that I, I know as well who unfortunately, um, took their own lives. So, um, apologize for that, but I want to acknowledge, um, all those— absolutely paid the ultimate sacrifice. Um, yeah, so yeah, I mean, what did it— what did I learn about ownership? Um, an immense amount. Um, and it's not like it's a— again, it's, it's hard. It'd be nice if it was like a single defining moment. And of course I talk about a lot of these stories in my speeches and with my clients. But, you know, it really is the accumulation of a lot of lessons over time, starting from day one at the Naval Academy.

Yeah.

Um, you know, July 2nd, 1996, induction day. Um, you know, from then on, it's all about ownership. Like, there's a— everyone in the military, probably— I mean, definitely, definitely in the Navy, and definitely naval officers are familiar with the message to Garcia stories. I won't belabor it because you have a lot of military audience here, but, um, if you're not familiar with the story, uh, go, go look it up. Message to Garcia. Apparently the story is apocryphal, uh, but the message still, um, still resonates, um, which is, you know, it's all about, uh, not asking how you do a mission. It's, it's just going and figuring it out. And then the next level is like figuring out your own mission. And so, um, I think part of that was taught to me. I think part of it's just my, my personality, um, and, and the mission focus and drive of, of all of us in the SEAL Teams, not just me, in that, um, both in the military and then after the military, um You know, I like to act as if I own the place. Uh, you know, it's almost like the, the, the phrase I use with people and in my speeches is drive it like you stole it.

Hmm.

That—

wow.

Why wait for someone else to tell you what to do? How, how subhuman is that, that there's 99.9% of people are out there waiting for someone to tell them what to do. That's awful. That's not what we were built for.

Yes.

Wow, that's powerful. Uh, thank you, thank you so much for, for sharing. And that's also part of the reason why I like to start the show with, uh, what I call moment of gratitude, because in the military it's about 21, 22 soldiers and veterans service member who commits suicide every single day. That is quite an epidemic. And I personally believe that there is a huge number of undiagnosed PTSDs in the military. Actually, I was very shocked myself when I found out that I suffered that trauma too. But, but some people, they may not even realize it. Part of the reason why I also do this show is to really bring that awareness. But I mean, it must really, really be heavy to be in command and losing people who report directly to you. Does mindfulness kind of help? Maybe meditation? What are some of the things that you do to kind of keep yourself sane after going through such intense situations?

Yeah, it's a great question. I'm glad you bring up mindfulness. I'm I, I, I could talk about mindfulness all day. Like, to me, mindfulness is the master skill. If you want to have a better life, be happier, be more successful, bring your best self to everyone around you, like, to me, the answer is mindfulness. And that there's—

it's—

mindfulness is not mutually exclusive with other spiritual practices. So if you're Christian, if you're Muslim, whatever, they're not competing with each other. And the thing is that, like, the lessons and practices of Buddhism and Stoicism, those are real toolkits that you can use every day, and that if you, if you learn to use them, especially meditation, there's other things, of course. It'll seem like it's not working in the beginning. You'll wonder if you're doing it right. But there's no— first of all, there's no right way to do it. And second of all, it will accumulate and you'll start to have these aha moments and you'll catch yourself. You'll catch yourself feeling certain emotions, or thinking certain things. And you will start acting a different way. You will start having more control over your actions because the reality is the overwhelming majority of what all of us think and do every day is not a decision. It's based on scripts, right? So there's this like antiquated notion, and I'm not making a religious argument or not, right? But there's this antiquated notion of just like what we do and who we are and how we think is all free will. And it's like there's just this, this thing inside us that is making all these decisions. Like, the reality is these are coded in our brains biologically, but you can think of it like a probabilistic computer. Right? And all— and, and our brain has been taking in this information and laying down these grooves like a record in our brain over and over and over and over and over again. And so without mindfulness, you will continue to have the needle stuck in the old grooves. Um, habits and action and relationships help, but without mindfulness, you will continue to run the scripts and you'll be angry. You'll be angry all the time because nothing you do is changing your situation, and you're wondering why.

Wow, that's really powerful. So basically what you're saying is, uh, for most people, I think we just emotionally react to whatever is happening to us. We don't actually respond. So how do you create the space where you are actually mindful and able to come up with a logical response to whatever challenges or signals that you are facing at the time. How do you do that?

Yeah, and by the way, if I forget, I want to get back to the PTSD thing. So just if you could please indulge me and remind me of that. Um, so I believe it was Viktor Frankl who wrote Man's Search for Meaning. He was a prisoner in Nazi concentration camps and was able to survive, and He was a, I believe, a psychotherapist, if I'm getting that precisely correct. If not, I'm in the ballpark. Um, before entering, uh, the camp, and then, uh, but kind of in a way, his purpose there in the camp that he dedicated to himself was to figure out what meaning is all about and why people— some people survived and some people didn't, right? Obviously If the Nazi guards, you know, bring you to where you will meet your end, you don't really have a choice about whether you survive or not, right? And, and all of this is incredibly unfortunate, uh, obviously. Um, but a lot of people died who weren't actually like shot or gassed by the Nazis. And so why do those people survive? Um, that's, that's the backstory. Um, the book is, the book is amazing and worth a read. But, you know, one thing he mentions is that between the stimulus and the action, there's a little bit of space.

Hmm.

And for most people, that space is contracted to nothing.

Yes.

And mindfulness expands that space. So what, like the goal, like you'll know you're making some progress. And by the way, if you are, if you get on a mindfulness journey, you shouldn't be measuring stuff all the time. Like don't create a dashboard for yourself and like, blah, blah, blah. There's just like, trust the process, learn, be open-minded. Like, and I'll just say it like walking in nature, meditation, journaling, you know, those are some basic Basic practices.

Yes.

And so, and if you wanna learn about meditation, Calm and Headspace are great apps you can use. Mm-hmm. I think Headspace has a 30-day free trial. And that's where I learned most of meditation. But Tara Brach, B-R-A-C-H, like the candy, Tara Brach, mm-hmm, has a free podcast with a zillion meditations on there. And I found that through Tim Ferriss. Wow. For people who wanna get started. But if you, you know, you don't, you don't set up a dashboard to get your progress. Like, but you'll know you're getting better if you catch the thought.

Mm-hmm.

Or the feeling. If you can catch the thought or the feeling and be like, oh, you know what? I'm feeling angry right now.

Like, why am I?

Okay. And then you investigate, like, why am I feeling angry? What's the story that I'm telling myself right now that makes me angry in the moment? And what's the backstory? Right?

Mm-hmm.

And then you can kind of breathe, right? Use some breathwork. Do some box breathing. Breathwork, it sounds woo, and we all know how to breathe, but if you do some box breathing, it can help you come down, right? But once you can catch that thought, then you're making progress. And the other thing is, Bizzy, like I told you, I could talk about this all day, is that for most people, they're up here, right? And when something bothers them, and in some cases when something excites them in a, in a positive sense, but in a very dopamine-fueled way, the, the stimulus has them go way up here off the charts.

Hmm.

And then not for the dopamine, not for the positive, but for the negative, they'll stay up here forever and come down. Right. And then they have those all the time. All, so they're very frequent.

Right.

Whereas for someone who is mindful and calm, their baseline is down here. And then when a stimulus comes in, it's a little spike, but then they can come right down. Then they can come right down, right? So the baseline's lower, the spike is lower, and they're what I call— it's a terrible acronym I made up, but self-soothing cycle time. Self-soothing cycle time. The, the time it takes for you to soothe and come back down is less. And so you come back down faster and there's less of those. So you're winning like 3 or 4 different ways through this skill.

Wow. And this is really crucial, especially for the military community. So I definitely wanted to spend more time on this, uh, because I think even just learning how to breathe deeply and separate yourself from your thoughts and knowing what you are actually feeling. I think maybe in my experience, men maybe have more trouble with this than women because we tend to not really— how can I put this? I guess separate ourselves from what we are thinking or even talking about how we feel. In my experience, women do it a lot easier than men, but I think This is so critical, and thank you so much for sharing this with us. So back to PTSD, something else you wanted to add about that and the podcast you mentioned earlier, Tara Brach.

Yeah, that's right.

Definitely want people to follow.

And by the way, for anyone who listens to Tara Brach, she'll sound like she's just a love child from the '60s, '70s, very hippie. You can picture her eating granola that she made herself and wearing Birkenstocks. And I don't know Tara Brooks. I don't know if she's like that at all, but that's how she sounds. Just give her a chance. Give her a chance. And she's really funny. So yeah.

Because part of this too, I think we kind of look at external factor and outcome now, how successful you've been in the military as a Navy SEAL and now as a tech executive and a coach. What I really want to get into in this podcast is behind the scene, what is going on and how do you deal with all of this pressure? Because I think it can really help a lot of people listening to you right now. So back to PTSD.

And yeah, no, you're right. We could talk about the men versus women thing a lot, but men typically have more difficulty finding solutions to these things. So we'll just leave it. I can leave it at that. And obviously those things aren't absolutes between the genders. Um, I have a little bit of a, um, provocative take on, on military PTSD, which is there is, um, no doubt the normal, like, uh, manifestation of PTSD, like, that's real, right? I'm not, I'm not arguing with that, but, um, I think the military, like, people self-select for the military who I think have atypical— in, in broad strokes, a lot of times, not all the time— but who have kind of these atypical, like, mental profiles and personalities such that, um, number one, some of them are— have issues from the beginning. Um, B, certain events might be catalysts for those issues getting worse or coming to the fore. Right? But in other ways, without having a traumatic incident, or if they have a traumatic incident, having that be a catalyst for real, you know, kind of bigger trauma, I think that the military serves to reinforce a lot of mindsets, behaviors that aren't necessarily bad on their face, But don't set those people up for success after the military in the quote unquote real world, to the extent that, you know, is it PTSD that I'm talking about right now? Like sometimes, but maybe not by a classical definition. I'm not a mental health professional, right? If that's not obvious. So go see a mental health professional, right? But like, I think for instance, right? People who are in the military like take intense ownership. So yes, all of us who are in the SEAL teams, like, you know, and nothing against Jocko, right? But we all could have written Jocko's book, like, because we all believe the same stuff in Extreme Ownership. But the issue is that most companies don't want extreme owners. Like they want owners in a sense, but only so far.

Yes.

And so you need to be able to balance that. If you're, if you're one of those naturally extreme owner people, like you need to learn how to balance that. Another example would be that a lot of people enter the military, especially special operations. Like we like adrenaline, we like the rush, we like the risk, we like the intense, intense mission focus. And that is all like this, you know, I'm not a, not Andrew Huberman either, right? But like oxytocin, dopamine, serotonin, like all of the good stuff is just like pumping nonstop in our baseline, probably, right? If you were to measure us, but like in that environment where we're going on operations all the time or whatever, like, and so you get out and then it's like, Okay, like everything is effing boring. I'm intended to curse, but I know we're live. Yeah, like everything, like nothing can compare to that, right?

True.

So how do you adjust then? And so did the military do that to you? Like, I don't know, but like you were kind of already like that, right? But, um, but you had all this reinforcing behavior and this sense of belonging that you just— is just irreplaceable, right? Outside of professional sports, pro athletes have the similar issues, right? Um, so anyway, that's— yeah, I feel like that stuff gets not enough attention, not enough attention compared to stereotypical PTSD.

No, you are, you are so right. And, uh, being in the military is very, very different, especially when you are under active operation, especially in a combat zone, because when you come back, it's a completely different world and it's very, very difficult to really readapt. I think for some of us, sometimes we may even get addicted to adrenaline at some point, almost with, I don't know, again, I'm not a psychologist or anything, but almost you almost want to put your life in danger and be in that high constant Adrenaline rush where you are always aware of what's happening in your surrounding, and when you come back to a normal place and back home with your family, it's, it's very, very, very difficult to really adapt to that. So for those who are listening, especially men, I think you definitely need to ask for help when you need it. Please, please, we all need help. And I did interview an expert, Dr. Shona Dockspringer. She's an Harvard-educated psychologist Season 5, Episode 4. You should listen to her. She really loves the military. She wrote the book Warrior, the expanded second edition, which I love, how to support those who protect us. And she also wrote the Amazon number one bestselling book with Michael Sorgoo, who is an Air Force vet, about relentless courage. They really go through PTSD in detail and how they they can help people. But if you have served for any time in the military, there is absolutely no shame to it. You might experience anxiety, depression, or post-traumatic stress disorder. You need help and get it diagnosed. Sometimes medicine will help, sometimes breathing exercises, mindfulness. There's a lot of things that you can do. There's a lot of resources out there, but I feel like for the military, our soldiers, our sailors, they just don't know what's available to help them. And I also understand there was a time when I joined 21 years ago where if you said you were seeing a psychotherapist or psychiatrist, you're gonna lose your security clearance and you may lose your job. So people didn't have any incentive to actually speak up and say, hey, I'm having this trouble, this nightmare, and I need help. But it's much, much different today for sure. So please ask for help when you need it.

Can I throw in one thing there, BC, which is if you are new to, uh, therapy, counseling, um, like, uh, or if you're just frustrated by your journey, like, realize that it's not like going to the doctor in that they have a special set of skills. And even if they have terrible bedside manner, like, they're probably gonna take care of you, right? Like, the licensing is insane, the education is insane, and the problems are different. Whereas in therapy, it might take you 4 or 5 or 6 different people to find one you really gel with and who gets you in the right ways and is giving you what you need. So like, just have a harsh filter. Like you're dating, right? And if you, if you're not gelling with somebody, you don't feel comfortable, or they're not giving you what you need and seeing you in the right way, then like Maybe find someone else.

Hmm, that is very insightful. Again, thank you so much for sharing. I think this is extremely important, but we usually do not talk about it for whatever reason. And definitely on the show, I wanna raise the awareness based on my own experience and what I have seen happen with members of my team. Because so far my entire career, I've only lost one server. Sometimes I still have nightmares about it. We were on the USS ASX in the South Pacific Sea, and he got really bad news from his then-wife, uh, and he decided to just end his life. And we spent a lot of time with our chaplain. I really love the chaplain. They really saved a lot of people and really helped her, just like I love talking to them. But yeah, these things are real. They do happen to people, and sometimes you may be affected and not really realize it until years later once you speak to psychotherapist, and then you start connecting the dots. But we definitely want people to get healthy and to really prioritize their mental health. That is so, so important. If you don't get anything out of this episode, I think this is extremely important. So we do have a question from the audience. I believe this is Joel. He says, what are the essentials for building a successful team?

Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a few aspects. One is you wanna have as many A+ players as you can. I know that's obvious, but the bar at most companies is not A+. Another aspect of it is that most companies hire, in my experience, and I've been at more than a few, they hire— this is actually something that Joel and I were talking about the other day. Is that they hire primarily based upon individual expertise in a niche area. Mm-hmm. Whereas competence, there are lots of A+ players out there who are a little bit jack of all trades. And when you're in an environment that is high ambiguity, high risk, and small amount of people on the ground, literally or metaphorically, then you need people who can wear lots of hats and who can have— and they have lots of soft skills and they can figure stuff out. I mean, we underrate people's ability to learn. Most jobs out there are actually not that complicated. And so for a decently educated person, Like they can learn what they need to learn about all these different things. And so, you know, I think we need a different, a different conception of what it means to, to work in the workforce and, and, um, and hiring practices. So A+ players. Um, the other thing is like you want really strong cultural fit.

Um, yes.

In particular, ownership, selflessness, mission focus, uh, and bias for action. Ownership, selflessness, mission-focused bias for action.

Yes.

Without those, which again, they seem obvious to a military audience, but they are far from obvious to a lot of other people out there.

Yes.

I know from experience, even though, even though they might nod their heads and be like, oh yeah, like, yeah, we definitely should have that. In practice, they don't have that most of the time. Right. Or they don't put it in the process to, to actually get those people. So you want that strong cultural fit. And the other thing is like, there's a, an art and a science to fielding the right players in the right positions. Um, so it's not just a matter of getting, you know, the smartest Ivy League tech school graduates in and just like assuming they're gonna just figure it out, right? Um, sometimes you might choose different people based upon the people you already have or where you want to put folks. And so having folks in the right places on the right squads and doing the right things, like, there's a little bit of art to that. And I think a lot about, like, basketball, you know, both pro and college. Um, for some reason, that over other sports, um, seems to be one where coach— the best coaches place a lot of emphasis on, um, they pride themselves on which personalities are going to get along with who, how do I shape this thing in a way that works, right? There's lots of organizations in, in the NBA who they will not get a player who is objectively awesome because of personality fit. They're like, how is this— how's our other guy gonna deal with him, and vice versa? Um, and so I think that's a huge thing. And then, and then I alluded to it, but it's roles and responsibilities. Yes. Go ahead.

No, that's a great example. Basically, having the right people on the bus and then having the right person on the right seat on the bus. It's really more of an art than a science. But yeah, that is really what it takes. Now, when you are forming this high-performing team, what do you think about the difference between just competence or performance and then trust? Are these people actually trust? Worldly?

Yeah, yeah, it's a great question. Um, and it's, um, I had someone, um, drawing this out to me the other day, and I was like, oh, like, that's in the Simon Sinek video. Um, and so it's like, it's, it's some— a lot of people are familiar with it, but the idea is that you have, um, on one axis you have competence, on the other axis you have trust. I don't know, maybe trust should be here and Competence should be here, uh, whatever, it doesn't matter. Um, but the idea is that like what you really want is high competence, high trust people. Hopefully I'm doing this in the right direction orientation.

Yeah.

Um, but it's okay if people are a little less competent. And competent really, like, it doesn't mean that they're incompetent. It means that on a— if you just look at their skills right, as opposed to results or a whole bunch of other things, right, like reliability. But if you just look at skills, like maybe they have less than others, but as long as they're high trust, like that's a person you want to keep and develop. And I mean, I think trust is like— trust is a catch-all here, right? It's just easy to say. It's 5 letters, it's one syllable, like, and it's, it's objectively hard to argue with, right? Like, no one's gonna argue we should bring in people we don't trust. So in that way, Simon Sinek is setting himself up to win here, right? But like, by trust, like, it means a lot of things, right? It's, it's that cultural fit, right? Like, the bar in—

and he—

I mean, Simon Sinek has built— like, hats off to him. Smart guy, great storyteller. He's done a lot of work. He's put in the time. So he deserves everything he's got. But like, he built his career kind of off of SEAL stories. Let's be honest.

Yeah.

Okay. Right. Like he did some consulting with the SEALs. Like, I don't know how many times.

Yes.

For all I know, it was like he sat in a meeting once. I don't know. Like, I think it was more than that. I'm just joking around.

Yes.

But he, but he did like, and he still tells those stories today. Right. And one of those is the trust versus competence story. But let's be honest, the bar in the SEAL teams is not, can I trust you? That's patently ridiculous.

Right?

It's way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way higher than that. Like, aside from shooting— like, take away the gun, take away the navigation, take away the driving, take away the swimming, and like, yes, parachuting— like, set that stuff aside. The bar is still like off the screen in terms of the human qualities we want this person to have, right? So trust is a catch-all, right? So it's like, will they never stop in the face of adversity? Like, that's no, that's probably number one, right? Like, in addition to, are you, you know, are you, are you trustworthy? Um, but then there's all those other things, right? Bias for action, ownership. Like, yeah, Rich Devaney, another SEAL, like, I think he uses the word like team ability. You know, there's all those sorts of things. Selflessness, like sacrifice, work ethic, like all the zillion attention to detail, situational awareness. Like, it's a whole bunch of things that are in that soft category that matter, but the point is still the same, you know. In the end, Simon Sinek is still right as usual, uh, is that like there are people who you're like, ah, you're not like nailing it results-wise. Like, you're not, you're not the best coder, you're not the best accountant, but like, but you wanna invest in that person. Whereas like anyone who falls below the bar, it doesn't matter if they're high skills, if they're low trust, like they need to go.

Yes. Yeah. But that's the thing, especially in the industry. I think we do this pretty well in the military where our core values are pretty much drilled into us from day one. But in the industry, especially Silicon Valley where I've been the last 12 years, they have those core values flyers on the wall, what they pretend to have their core values. But they don't act according to them. It's like all of the decisions they make when it really matters, promoting people, the money and all of that, is just based on performance. So you can be a jerk, you can be completely misaligned to all of the core values of your organization, but because you bring in the most amount of money, they are going to promote you. And that really affects the people in the company who are actually aligned with the core value and the mission of the organization. I think long-term, you are not going to be be successful when, when what you do is completely misaligned with what you say.

Yeah. Well, I mean, you know what's way more important and powerful than a list of company values on the wall is lore. And I don't mean made-up stuff, but when everyone in the organization knows, oh, there was that one time that Bob did X. There was that one time where, you know, uh, a SEAL got thrown in the water with his hands and feet tied in the Vietnam War, and they left him for dead, and he still survived, right? Like, there was that time that XYZ— there was a time at Amazon where, you know, it was a package was going to be late, and like the equivalent of the commander got in his car and drove that package 20 miles to bring the package on time, right? Wow. And by the way, that is not an isolated circumstance. It's not just one time, but like, though, remember that time we had like, you know, doors for desks at Amazon? Like, because we couldn't afford anything else. Like, you know, like those things, like they shape what people do because they're real and they're resonant. Whereas, you know, so many companies, they don't, it's not that they're failing to tell those, it's that they don't effing have them in the first place because no one did the things.

Yes.

That actually matter.

Wow. That, that is, that is really powerful. Now I know, uh, we are pretty much out of time. Can you give me 5 more minutes before we, we end?

Absolutely, man.

I could be talking to you for hours and hours. Another question from the audience. I believe that's Joel again. Can you talk about any toxic leaders that you encountered? How did you handle them and how do you prevent that? That's a good question.

This is great. Let's see. Where do I start? I have too many that I've encountered.

Please don't tell their, say their names, but yeah.

No, I wouldn't. Thanks for the reminder though. I don't want to get myself in trouble or quit myself in a way that I'm not proud of. So there are lots of different flavors of toxic, and I'm a little bit of a— what's the word for it? Contrarian. Yes. That's not the right— there's another word for it, but I can be like a— you know, there's an acronym, PITA. Like, I can be that. Sometimes, right? So I question a lot and I, you know, once I see a word all over the place, I start to wonder if it's the right word or for— so toxic is one of those, right? For anyone who's on LinkedIn, you're on LinkedIn, I'm on LinkedIn, Joel's on LinkedIn, right? I don't mean on it, right?

We're all on it.

But like, you know, if you're participating on LinkedIn actively, you will see the word toxic 20,000 times a day, right? And it goes viral. And so people keep doing it because everyone has that experience. But, you know, it's a little too buzzwordy that I think— I feel like we've lost the meaning of what it— like what bad bosses are, what bad colleagues are. So it's overused. But my point is there's different flavors of toxic, I think.

Yes.

I think it's important to realize that there's oftentimes, there are two sides to the story and it's good to assume positive intent. And I think that there are times where I encountered toxic people, toxic bosses, um, where I would handle it differently now. I would handle it with more patience and less reactivity. And I would empathize more with their situation. So what things that mindfulness and personal growth help with are you start to— you encounter people and you get familiar with different patterns. And you're like, oh, yeah, like you start to think, oh, like, what's that person going through that they have to— that they care so much about being right in every meeting, or where they are totally comfortable stabbing people in the back. It's like, what, what are you afraid of? That must really suck. Like, not saying that to them, but just like thinking that and having that empathy, right? It's not about justifying their behavior or sacrificing yourself for someone who, you know, the equivalent of wants to kill you, right? I'm not talking about that, but, um, but I, I, I am talking about handling it in different ways. But I mean, there, there were times where like I, I just left, right? Like not the military, right? But I mean like different, different jobs where it's like, I don't want to be around this person. At all. And this person is not a random person that I need to deal with, but they're my boss or they're a key colleague who I can't succeed in this job without them. So at the end of the day, like, I need to walk. So, you know, this isn't exactly the question you asked, but I'd encourage people who are—

Yes.

You know, whether you're running your own business or whether you— especially if you are working for other people, um, you know, if you're starting a new thing like, first of all, trust your gut about people. There were times, like, you know, times that I— the two decisions that I regret the most, the two types of decisions are one where I made it to please others and not myself, right? And there's a balance between sacrifice and selflessness, but also, like, you know, you gotta, you gotta put your own oxygen mask on a lot, right? You only have one life, especially post-military. Monetary. Um, and so those things aren't mutually exclusive. Um, you know, but the other type of decision I regret the most is not trusting my judgment, not trusting my gut. Sorry, not trusting my gut. And so sometimes you like, you take a read on someone and you're like, I do not like this person, right? It's, and it's just a whisper because it's like, oh, this is a great opportunity. It's with this name brand company and blah, blah, blah. I'm gonna make a lot of money and I can like, you know, and we're doing good, it's a product I'm excited about. But like, in the back of your mind is just like, ah, it's like something like, yeah, was it, was it okay? We were smiling and like blah blah blah. Yes, maybe it was a situation, but like, man, you sometimes you got to trust yourself and just stay away from those people. And just, yeah, and I know it's, it, if you're looking for jobs, I know it's a tough market, so sometimes you gotta, sometimes you gotta make your trade-offs. But, um, But yeah, I know I answered that in a weird way, but I've more than enough experience with toxic people. I could talk for hours about that probably. Huh.

That is quite interesting. I really like the way you share that because I guess it is different depending on who the person is and also how much influence that person might have. You have on your career. I guess that does make a difference as well. I really do appreciate what you shared. So another question, this is Joel again. We may have already talked about this. This is about the Buddha behind you. Can you comment on the Buddha and the importance of Buddha in life and leadership? I think we kind of touched on this a little bit earlier.

Yeah.

When we talk about mindfulness.

Yeah. By the way, I apologize for the sun coming in. I won't put it down, but I'm like sitting in this like halo here. But it's funny, when I saw the question, I thought you meant like the Buddha, like historically speaking, like the actual one sitting here. So that is a gift that I received from a longtime ex-girlfriend, wonderful person who shaped my life in so many ways. Um, like, for the better. Um, and, um, so she, uh, brought that back. And the funny thing is, she tells me, she goes this— maybe it was an omen, uh, foreshadowing— but she goes, um, this is a particular Buddha that represents death. Um, and so represents— I'm— that's not the word she used. I'm not gonna portray that accurately. Like, I didn't grow up in Buddhist culture, so my knowledge of the particulars is thin, even though as a practice and in principle, and, you know, I agree with a lot of those teachings and I practice a bunch and I read it, I read about it. So, but it's a reminder that, you know, like memento mori, remember you will die in Latin. And And the other aspect is just remaining mindful because I've got one of my best friends from childhood, Todd. There's 4 of us who grew up on this cul-de-sac. And number one, not number one, it's not the most important thing, but I model one behavior from Todd, which is, you know, for friends and family, like I always pick up and I always pick up the phone. Right. And like, yeah, I mean, sometimes you're in a meeting, you can't pick up the phone, but like, you know, anytime you can, like outside of, you know, the, the critical stuff, 'cause he always picks up, the guy always picks up. He's got kids, he's got a wife, like he's got a hugely busy life, but he always picks up. Right. And so I gotta mention that 'cause it's just, it's It's, it's, yes, you know, this microcosm of a thing that, that, you know, means a lot, right? And it's a, it's like those little slivers of rules you have in life and mantras and everything else, like those little slivers that are specific, like they, they are representative and impactful beyond that, right? So, so, um, so that's one thing. But I remember talking to him during a tough situation for myself and you know, and he goes, Andrew, uh, all we want in the end is peace, right?

Yes.

And I was like, man, like, that's profound. And, um, you know, the, um, Buddhism, um, is, is a great way to practice and develop the, the ability to have peace. Like, peace and calm so many people— I'm gonna gen— I'm gonna stereotype and say Western culture. So many people in Western culture, like, you don't actually know what it's like to have peace because you've never experienced it. Yes, right? Since maybe you were a kid, you know, playing outside. But like, since then, you, you have no idea what it is to experience peace, calm, and joy. Like, if, like, in order to experience joy, in my opinion, you need to have this foundation or this substrate of peace, then you can start to experience joy.

Um, yeah, well, because I really think, um, a lot of people out there, especially, um, Silicon Valley and industry, I am very, uh, familiar to We get so busy, you know, making money and going to work 60, 70 hours a week and chasing after that thing that we kind of lose ourselves, I think, in the process. And I really feel like mindfulness is something that will allow you to really center yourself and really realize what should be a priority. It's— wow, that is powerful. Thank you so much for sharing that. Definitely, if you allow me to ask these two more questions and then we are going to end. Joel has another question, he says, as a military commander, you don't get to choose your team. I think Russell said you deal with the army you are given, right? Not the one you want. So you play the hand you are dealt with. So can you contrast this with private sector where you may have options?

Yeah, yeah. I'm, I, I'm, I, I'm sorry, I'm pausing because there's, um, I believe on my podcast, um, The Warrior Poet, I had interviewed, um, a venture capitalist and, and military veteran, Joe Musselman, who, um, he— what is it? It's Broom Ventures, I think, is Right there. Um, and so, uh, you know, he, he made the, the point on that episode, um, which I agree with, which is that sometimes it's a good thing that you can't get rid of people. Right? Because then you're forced to actually deal with them and develop them. And so, you know, I made the point about A+ players and blah blah blah. And yeah, like, you know, we were lucky in special operations. You're lucky because there's, there's a, a process that has been honed. You know, not to sound, um, uh, I know what you mean, kind of not to sound performative, but you know, it's like Time and blood have shaped those processes. So you end up with, you end up with, with generally A+ players. You know, there's bad apples here and there, there's people who don't meet it, but like, you know, you're lucky. But at the same time, you know, I was on a ship before the SEAL teams, you know, there's lots of leadership that didn't have a cat. I mean, in the SEAL teams, right, you gotta deal with lots of people and you, you can't generally get rid of them, right? They have to do something really wrong in order to do it. The bar is less than the SEAL teams for, for exiting. Like you can, you know, But generally in the military it's really hard. I mean, the bar is less for getting rid of people in the SEAL teams. I didn't mean the other. And so companies don't spend a lot of time actually developing people.

Hmm.

Like the, again, and I hate, you know, it's not about the military's perfect. It's like far from perfect as you know., right? And your audience knows. So I don't mean to do that, right? And it's not saying the private sector's all bad, right? But I, it's in, and I think, you know, I don't wanna read too much, right? But, and project, but I think part of the reason you have the show here is that it's about spreading the lessons that we know work, right? From experience and, and how you feel when you're in that environment where people actually give a damn about you and your development, right? Right? Um, and you train a lot, right? And you work on skills. And so, and you, and you deal with people that you don't want to deal with, right? Like, and so, um, yeah. And so, so there's so much, you know, uh, beauty to that where like that's real leadership.

True, true. Well, that's why people get paid the big bucks, right? If you can develop a leader and save a life. Wow, that is powerful. And another question Joel asked, uh, I think this is the last one. He says, you know, you've talked about mission failure. In private sector, this often means getting fired or disbanding the team. What can you share about how teams should handle and get through failure? That's a very good question.

Yeah, great question. Thanks for all the great questions, Joel. Um, so, well, I guess the first thing is, first you gotta admit you failed.

Yes.

I, I remember being at a startup, my— the first startup I was at, um, it was a, it was a fashion startup, and, you know, Fun fact, it was, I went from the military to business school in it, but then I went to Wall Street and so it was all mostly guys, right? Type A, very driven guys, you know, bros if we wanna call ourselves that. And I went to this startup and it was, I, my boss's boss was a woman. My boss was a woman. The 5 managers underneath me were women. And then it was 39 women at the ground level. And eventually we hired one dude, right? And so it was such a different environment. Wonderful, wonderful experience. Learned a lot and loved that, all of it. But I remember we, not our team, but the whole company was not meeting our revenue numbers. And it happened again and again and again. I remember being frustrated that it was so weird that the CEO never admitted it, never, never kind of— not, not admit, not like someone's asking him like, are we missing our numbers? And he's like, no, that's not what I mean. But like, you know, at some point it's like This is existential right now, and everyone needs to know. We need to know what we're doing about it. Like, dude, and we're all on— well, we're on two floors, but there was one main floor. Um, dude, like, stand up on your desk, bring everyone in, and be like, this is the deal.

Yes.

200— I mean, it's like whatever, 300 people or something like that. Like, this is the deal. Like, we're missing our numbers time and time again. Like, Everyone needs to know about it. Like, this is what we can learn. This is the plan forward, right? Does anyone else have any ideas? Like, but instead he did the equivalent of just crawling under his desk and hiding. Like, and go figure, the company didn't make it. Um, and so the first thing is admitting it, but also, um, debriefs were, were huge in the team. So, uh, I like to call them violent debriefs because they're It's not about attacking people, but it's also about telling the unvarnished truth through one's eyes. It's important to acknowledge that eyewitness testimony is notoriously flawed in the criminal justice system. There've been countless studies that show that. So what you saw may not have been reality, right? In terms of how you interpret it, but telling it as you see it, and going soup to nuts through the entire project or operation and analyzing like what went well and what didn't at every step and what can we do to improve. And so like in a way, or in a huge way, the SEAL teams are like the best tech startups in Silicon Valley in that it's an obsession about getting everything working as well as possible. Like, that's what, that's what being a CEO is or should be about, especially in startups. Get every piece of the system, every piece of the machine working as well as it possibly can for maximum result. And the way you do that is by obsessing about the details and having an insanely high bar for what you do and actually following through to implement processes, whether they be, you know, in the SEAL Teams tactics, techniques, and procedures, like that help you raise the bar at every piece of that operation with clear action items for who owns doing those things.

Following up is definitely key. Okay, the last question from the crowd. I don't know if you know Bill Speer, William Speer. Have you read his book? I don't.

I don't. This looks like a cool book though.

Yeah, I actually had the great pleasure of interviewing him, season 5, episode 7. Awesome. Is a commander of US Navy, a great, great, great, great, great guy. But anyway, one last question Joel had. He was just asking if you had read that book and what you think. I highly recommend that.

I think it's a great book, but I haven't read it. That's my answer. No, I'll look forward to connecting with Bill offline. It looks like an amazing piece.

So why should our people read this book? Talking about books before agreement.

Yeah. So I have it right here.

If you—

yep, I have it right here. And along with— I'll just— for people may be interested, I also have The Untethered Soul by Michael Singer.

Yeah.

There's aspects that are a little woo in there, but the overall gist in terms of mindfulness is amazing. And then How to Be an Imperfectionist by Stephen Guise, which is the Like the absolute best book on perfectionism procrastination that I've ever read. Wow. And I've read, I'm familiar with a bunch of it. I've read a bunch of it. I thought about it a lot. So The Four Agreements is, first of all, I was sitting in a restaurant that I really used to go to. It was a women-owned restaurant in Seattle. Great wine, great seafood, and great clientele. And I was traveling back there from DC to Amazon regularly. And so I'd usually try and stop by this place and sit at the bar and talk with the staff and, you know, maybe an occasional patron. And I go there one night and it's pretty empty. And there's this woman, she's clearly on a business trip too, couple seats down. This isn't a pickup story if that's where anyone's going. And, but she had this book and at some point just making small talk, I mean, genuinely interested too, like, hey, what are you reading there? And she puts it down and she's like, oh my God. She's like, first of all, it's this book, The Four Agreements. I've read it every year for 10 years.

Wow.

And I first got introduced to it because someone, a random person, gave it to me when I asked them what they're reading. And now I want you to have this.

Wow.

And so, um, among other things the people you meet who have read The Four Agreements tend to be awesome people in my experience. They tend to be really great people. Yes. And the book is a very easy read. Granted, there's a little bit of woo here and there, like a lot about the Toltec religion. But if you can, if you can be open-minded, which, you know, being open-minded isn't— that's one of the, um, big what, 4 personality, Big 5 personality traits, whatever, however many there are, you can correct me, Bizzy. Um, but, um, open-mindedness is not like, in my experience, generally like a military personnel superpower. Uh, so sometimes it takes a little practice for us, but personality is changeable.

Yes.

So, um, Ben Hardy, Dr. Benjamin Hardy, if people are interested, like, you know, he started writing a lot about that. Now he's trying to be Alex Hormozy or something like that. Um, and so, uh, but yeah, personality is flexible, so you can work on open-mindedness. So if you can get a little open-minded— yes, bringing it back around here— you can get by, you can get past the 5%, 2% woo stuff in there. But you know, it's 4 simple And the agreements you make with yourself, and it's on the jacket here, the COVID is be impeccable with your word. And he goes on to define impeccability. He goes on to define word, but be impeccable with your word. So, among other things, be honest with yourself. Don't take anything personally is number 2. Don't make assumptions. And always do your best.

Wow, that's simple but powerful.

Yeah, yeah, I'll read them again. People didn't follow. Be impeccable with your word. Don't take anything personally. Don't make assumptions. Always do your best. And if you— and the thing is, like, it, you know, it sounds so simple. Some of you out there are like, that's kind of stupid, like, why would I read that? Just read it. Just read it. Because, um, in the way you will see as he fleshes it out, and by the way, this book is like, it's immensely readable. It's small pages, pretty big print, and it's only 129 pages.

Uh-huh.

So like you could read it in a day, probably even the slow readers out there. I'm an, I'm an insanely slow reader. Um, and so, wow. Uh, but if you, as you read it, you will find, you'll see things where you're like, oh man. Ah, like, I really did take this thing personally, or I really did make some assumptions. That's where I screwed up. And so it's an, you know, a very, very simple list of, um, rules for yourself that if you apply them, um, it can have immense ramifications.

That's really powerful. I like to say if you apply them, because to me the magic is in execution. Yeah, right. Looks simple, but it's not simplistic. But once you put them into practice Okay. Really quickly, what about this one? The Birth Order book.

Yeah. I mean, I will confess I have not read this book. I have read a lot of articles and things about birth order. I have not. And also just through experience, right? As you get older, you start to pattern match some of these things. And so yeah, I would say the book is very relevant for for a lot of people, it's probably a great read. I'm told it's a great read. It is a bestseller. But even just if you were to just like get a summary from ChatGPT or something, just knowing kind of what those patterns are, you can kind of look at yourself and then you'll start to see these things in other people.

Yeah. And of course I want my audience to listen to your podcast, The Young Warrior Poet, available. Podcasts are available. And you also mentioned Tara Brach, and we're definitely gonna be following her. And finally, uh, to end, uh, this book, Man's Search for Meaning. It's been recommended a lot, uh, at least a dozen times since last year on this podcast alone. What can you tell us about this book?

Yeah, it's, um, the story parts of it, you know, make it immensely readable and powerful by themselves about the concentration camp. Um, I don't remember if it was Auschwitz, might have been Dachau.

Um, powerful.

But it was— I believe, I believe Viktor Frankl was in one of the harsher ones. Um, and, uh, so that's powerful in and of itself, man.

Just also hear it, it's, it's, it's really inspiring.

Yeah, it's also, I, I If I recall, I mean, I read in high school, I haven't read it since, uh, but I believe it was— it's, it's not a very long book either, and, uh, the takeaways are, uh, are, are, are really great. Yeah, so that's one where it's— the takeaways may not be— you could easily get a summary from ChatGPT or Claude or whatever your thing is, um, you know, but for this one I would highly recommend just reading it because some things, you know, Naval Ravikant has, um, is famous for saying like most books can be distilled to a single blog post. Yes, that is true. Yet, um, sometimes the exposition in detail and all the examples, they help for the thing to sink in., right?

Wow.

Like there's this book by Gary Keller and I can't remember his co-author, but called The One Thing. Mm-hmm. Literally just me telling you it's a business book and it's called The One Thing, you already know what it's about. You, any of us could probably write the book, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. But that's a book that I've read 2 or 3 times, listened to Audible, but like that's a book I've listened to 2 or 3 times. Because it really helps you figure out how to prioritize things. Like if I just read a blog post about it, it wouldn't be that powerful.

Yeah. Hmm. No, that is powerful. I really love the one thing. Okay. Going to end and thank you so much for, you've been so generous with with the last quote, Robert Adams, about men's search for meaning. He says, when a man finds that it is his destiny to suffer, he will have to accept the suffering as his task, his single and unique task. His unique opportunity lies in the way he bears his burden. Dr. Viktor Frankl. So, so profound. All right, we are coming to the end of the podcast. Thanks again for being so generous with your time, Andrew. How can we add value back to you?

Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you everyone for joining and listening. Follow me on LinkedIn. I am posting regularly about all the things that Bizzy and I had the pleasure of talking about today. There's my website in front of you. Then I've got my podcast, The Warrior Poet. I plan to invest a lot in that this year, doing about an episode a month now, but I'm going to do a lot more in person. Frankly, Bizzy, I'm very inspired by the way you've run this interview and doing it live. I'm learning a lot of lessons here. I am indebted to you for that example and experience. Um, so yeah, The Warrior Poet is the podcast, and then, um, yeah, and then, uh, newsletter. Yeah, as well. I knew there was something else. Yes, the newsletter, um, which, uh, which, yeah, you subscribe to that.

And well, thank you so much for your time. This has been a very insightful conversation. I always like to end on a positive note. So many challenges happening.

I hope so.

What is one thing you are feeling optimistic about? And that's going to be the end of the show today.

Ah, yeah. Um, I don't think things are as bad as we think they are.

Wow.

We always, throughout history as humans, think things are going to hell.

Yeah.

And sometimes they are. If you're in a concentration camp, that's as bad as it can get.

Mm-hmm.

Pretty much, right? If you're in the Cultural Revolution in China, it's hard to imagine it getting worse than that.

Yes.

But most of the time things are better than we think. So there's a lot of change with AI. Um, there's a lot of, uh, political stuff going on in the US that regardless of where you fall, Like everyone thinks it's going to hell. It doesn't matter what side you're on. I'm more agnostic these days than anything else.

Yeah.

Um, things are way better than, than most of us think they are right now. So plan for the long term.

Mm-hmm.

Don't succumb to the panic or the hype. Don't feel that you have FOMO, like don't feel like you have to keep track of every AI thing that's going on. Most of it isn't that complicated. I worked in AI. Like the releases that are happening every day. Yes, they're, they're powerful, but that doesn't mean you need to keep track of all of them. Like, just stick to your thing, figure out what you like doing, figure out the people you want to be around, and enjoy your life.

Wow. Well, Andrew, thank you. Thanks so much for such a mindful, insightful conversation. The very last question I ask all of my guests: what is one word that represents our shared experience this podcast today. One world.

Deep. I'm looking for a better— I'm looking for a different word, but I won't make the audience wait for me to go through all my vocabulary in my head.

Uh, moving along. Thank you, sir. I am always, always grateful and so privileged to be, uh, speaking, uh, to such illustrious guests. And thank you so much for being one of our master teach you today. We've really learned a lot. There were a lot more questions I had from the, the pre-show. I wanted to ask about what you did in tech and all that, but I think what we talked about today, mindfulness and what the military goes through, I think that, that could be life-changing and altering. And I think it's very important for leaders to talk about these things. So thank you so much, really appreciate it.

Yeah, this was amazing, BZ. Anytime. Thank you for having me. It was wonderful.

Yeah, and whenever you publish, uh, your book, which will be later this year or next year, I definitely want to want you back and we're gonna talk some more for sure. Thanks again.

I appreciate it. That's awesome. Thank you.

All right, uh, everyone, this was a little bit long, but I think it was worth it. I'm very, very grateful for Suri to come here and really share from his expertise and knowledge. Again, please go ahead and check out his website, subscribe to his podcast, The Young Warrior poet. And yeah, and follow him on LinkedIn. So sometime today, because I am traveling, I don't know exactly when, but we are going to go back and do the 10-minute AI recap for ancient wisdom from the Book of Proverbs. This is not religious at all. We went through this— today is actually the 11th, on January 11th, about an hour or so. Today is going to be 10-15 minute recap. I'm probably gonna do it in the next couple of hours. And also, in about an hour, I'm gonna have a great pleasure of having one more conversation. Let me see, do I have him here? His name is Alan Killian. Okay, I don't— I do not have his flyer here, but in about an hour I'm going to be talking to him. He's a leader and he really works to scale businesses. So we're gonna have a wonderful conversation on entrepreneurship and leadership if you want to listen live, both here on LinkedIn and, uh, YouTube. Okay, until, uh, later today, thank you so much for being with us, and, uh, I hope you have a great day. And see you again later today if you can make it, or tomorrow for sure. Bye for now.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's this episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.