S5:E39🎙️ Live with Kathryn Wang "Mad Scientist in Cyber Security Partnerships and Sales"

Hi, I'm John Maxwell. When the top companies in the world are looking for trainers, speakers, and coaches, there's one name that stands above the rest, and that's Maxwell Leadership. Our certified team members have gotten proven results for companies all over the globe, and our reputation, I'm proud to say, is second to none. Some of our members have risen to the top of their profession, including the one you're going to meet today. I proudly introduce you to my friend, Bob Fabien Zinga. Welcome to the Leadership Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ, where we help you lead with purpose and succeed with impact. If you're ready to grow into the kind of leader others want to follow, this podcast is for you. If you're determined to elevate your success and leave a lasting legacy, this podcast is for you. As my mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell, reminds us, everything rises and falls on leadership. Our goal is simple: to inspire you, challenge you, and equip you with insights that can transform the trajectory of your leadership journey. Welcome aboard to another episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast with Coach BZ. SandboxAQ focuses on the strategic intersection between AI and quantum technology. So we support the public sector, specifically the DOD and federal entities with quantum sensing, quantum navigation, quantum simulation, and for the purposes of our conversation here today, quantum cryptography. We are very excited to be participating in the event today. As you look around you, you can feel a lot of energy, a lot of excitement, a lot of opportunity to continue pursuing mission assurance and cryptographic agility. We're really excited to be part of this organization because it is intimate. It's a mission-oriented group of people, and we're all here to make sure that we're pushing forward the national security imperative at all levels, from AI to cloud to cryptography, national security, all the way to industry. So my name is Kat Wang. I am a principal of the Public Sector Division within SandboxAQ. We sit at the strategic intersection between AI AI and quantum technology. So not quantum computing, but quantum technology. We do cool things like quantum simulations, right, for material science or pharmaceuticals to find cures for undruggable diseases. Uh, we do quantum navigation in support of, um, DOD and then avionics, aerospace, and then also from a cryptography side, post-quantum cryptographic resilience in the cyberspace, which is what I focus a lot on within the public sector. So thanks for having me. So the way that we understand functions today of a classic computing is very binary, right? Zeros and ones. Think about it as an on-off switch, either it's on or it's off, or thumbs up, thumbs down. Quantum basically assumes that these two states are not the only states that, you know, it can be in. You can actually do a 360 rotation, up, down, et cetera. The idea is like, these quantum physics, like things can exist in multiple states at one time. And the reason why this is important from a quantum computing standpoint is instead of being a very linear model, like if I wanna get from point A to point B, moving like up and down, going in a linear path, we can start thinking about it from a more lattice-oriented path, right? Like a, you know, a 3-dimensional or cube perspective. And what that allows you to do is start to do computations in rapid, rapid context. Now, what that means from a cyber perspective is from cryptography, a lot of the ways that we protect our information, we encrypt it today, that's gonna be at risk. If you are not using post-quantum, like once quantum computing computers exist, really, if you are not using resilient algorithms that help to prevent quantum computers from decrypting your data, then literally everything that a cyber adversary has stolen for the last 20 years can be decrypted much faster, order of magnitude faster, as opposed to like 100 years, we're talking in months, right? So when that happens, then the entire security layer that we have, the security infrastructure that we have breaks down. And that's very bad. It means that, really the only way that you can be secure in a post-digital transformation, in a post-quantum world, is with this.

Yep.

Yeah. Welcome, welcome back to the 1890s. Am I right? So that's what it is in, in not so many words.

All right, everyone, welcome back to another special edition of the Leadership and Success Podcast. We are so excited today. We have somebody in the green room that doesn't need to be introduced, and, uh, she's really a rock star, and I'm so excited that she's here. So for a moment of gratitude, as you all know, for the month of February, every single day I am grateful for Black History Month, for the achievement and the contribution of Black African American in this country. I think we've built America, made it what it is today, the greatest nation in the world. And I highly, highly recommend this book, right? African American First by John Porter, famous, little-known, and unsung triumph of Blacks in America. So Let me try to properly introduce our guest. Like I should say, Kat Wang doesn't need any introduction. She stands at the crossroads of cyber, AI, quantum, and national security. She is a principal public sector at SandboxAQ, founder at Ctrl+Alt+Defeat.io, 16-year Google veteran, 2026 Wash 100 Award recipient, if you can believe that, co-chair of United Women in Cyber. Man, is there anything that she doesn't do? Kathryn describes cybersecurity as the immune system of a digital economy. Ecosystem. And in today's AI-accelerated, quantum-disrupted world, that mindset couldn't be more relevant. So she's helping federal agencies, including the DOD and the Navy, prepare for post-quantum cryptography. In my mind, there is absolutely nothing more important than that. AI-enabled defense and zero trust at scale. This conversation is about leadership under consequence. So without any further ado, please help me welcome to the Leadership and Success podcast, Kat Wang.

Thank you, uh, thank you for that wonderful introductions. Wow. Um, I'll tell you one thing that I cannot do, Bob. I cannot run an 8-minute mile. No, even on my birthday, maybe like we're talking to walk, trot, canter at 11 minutes best day. No, can't do it. Yeah, well, thank you for having me here today.

No, I'm so good. I guess that's the best time I've ever ran a mile. I did like a mile and a half with like 11 and 52 seconds, the best time I've ever had. When I joined the Navy 21 years ago, I was a cat food potato and I couldn't run to save my life. But, uh, yeah, when I went to boot camp, they, they really remade me into a— yeah, I was able to run. That was so, so wonderful until I started having issues with my knees and my ankles, so I stopped running. Now I do the bike most of the time. But anyway, what is one thing you are grateful about today?

Oh, it's Friday. Does that count?

Yes, absolutely.

Let's do that. Let's do that. So I will say I never know whether or not to be grateful or angry at the fact that we have 4-day work weeks, because when you have a 3-day holiday, long weekend, you come back to 5 days worth of work crammed in 4 days. So it's a hard question right now, Bob.

Yes.

But I will say, before we get into the to the interview. First and foremost, especially being in the public sector, thank you, sir, for your service, especially the multiple years that you— and the leadership that you continue to bring into the cybersecurity and the technology world. Um, I find people are in uniform, they never stop serving even when they're out of it. So thank you very much.

Thank you so much. I really do appreciate that. It's really all hands on deck type of thing, even people who are out of uniform like you. A lot of the work that you're doing is really going to help us with our national strategy and some of the things I'm very, very concerned about. Actually, I wonder if now is the right— okay, I am going to ask you a question. This was at RSA last year. I don't know if you're going this year. Someone asked me a question. I probably need to ask that to you. Let me play the quick clip now.

Okay.

So tell me more about the kind of the challenges that you have today in the security space. Well, it's been a challenge for a couple of years now, but I believe quantum apocalypse is really what's scaring all of us. Because as you know, with quantum computing, they're going to be able to break all of the encryption we have now. And encryption is what provides confidentiality.

Yes.

Our secrets are secret because nobody can break the encryption. Yes. But very soon they're going to be able to just break it. And when that happens, it's going to be a significant challenge. Yeah. So we don't know if it's gonna happen all at once where, you know, everybody can get access to all of our data all at once, or if it's going to be— it kind of reminds me of Y2K, if you remember. Uh-huh. 1995, I know, uh, that's when we— I started using the internet and they were like, oh, it's gonna be the end of the world. Y2K, computers won't be able to go to 2000. Right.

1900.

There's gonna be all of this catastrophe and everything. But we actually, uh, We were able to go through it pretty simply. It was pretty okay. Yeah, it was fine. So again, I'm not sure if it's gonna be similar, but at least in theory, that could be the end of confidentiality as we— All right. This is enough as a tech executive. That's really something that keeps me awake at night. And I know you are working towards some type of solution, especially with the federal government. What do you think we should kind of do to prepare for what some people call Q-Day?

Yeah. So, okay. So let me take a step back.

Yes.

While I do— so the fascinating thing about Western culture, I'll specifically identify the United States in particular, right? There is, while we are still a very technology-forward society, we still, and this is you cannot unlearn 10,000, 2,000, if you want to call it that, years worth of habitual, repetitive oral tradition. You will still believe what you hear 3 times more than what you read. It's just a part of humanity and how we've evolved over time. So when a CEO will step on stage and say that he doesn't believe that the quantum threat is going to happen for another 15 years, you'll see stocks for quantum companies tank within the day by 30%. It is absolutely amazing. It is based off of absolutely no science whatsoever other than one individual who happens to be a very prominent, well-known individual making a statement. We don't know anything on whether or not they're qualified to make the statement. We don't know anything on what the context in which they made the statement. Simply that the statement existed will tank economies.

Right.

At a national, potentially global level, which I find very fascinating. So as we talk about quantum in general, I want to just, just say that there's a lot of atmospherics in the space that need to be taken with a grain of salt. I personally believe that we are going to see quantum within our lifetimes, and I do mean in the next 5 years, not the next 15. It is definitely something that we need to be aware of whether or not we want— there is no real benefit to saying positive or negative, fearful or hopeful. It simply will be, and the people who understand it will be the one who can effectively manage or utilize it. So when I think about the quantum, the impending quantum impact, Q-Day, I also think about what is the, what is the delta? What's the gap between where we are with our security posture today versus that point in time? The reality reality, Bob, and what I'm seeing, you don't need a quantum computer to exploit cyber vulnerabilities right now. You simply don't. And you could see this every day because you continue to see news reports of critical infrastructure getting breached, telecommunications entities getting breached, significant like government agencies getting breached, like no— but financial institutions, nobody is spared. Healthcare, like the state level right, holds a significant amount of information for civilians. And that layer of data is often underfunded, under-resourced, and under-secure. I mean, not actually, I should say not often, but considering what they do with the resources they have, it's pretty remarkable. How about that? So I would challenge everyone, you know, as we think about quantum, yes, it is something we absolutely need to be prepared for. However, there are plenty of things that we need to focus on today so that we even have the ability to prepare for that.

Yeah, yeah. I guess being in the security space, in some way we kind of have job security because they're always going to need people with those type of skills, especially in this AI-enabled age. But it is quite fascinating. So let's go back. You are a 16-year Google veteran. So, uh, before moving fully into cybersecurity, what was kind of the inflection point when you realized that cyber wasn't just a job for you but really your mission?

Yeah, absolutely. So, um, after being at a company for— so the, the— my— I will always consider Google my home in many ways. That's where I learned a lot of the key, um, kind of business operations, uh, discipline that I, I still hold today. Um, but if you look at my career, every 4 years It's almost like I had senioritis every 4 years. So that's why 16 years is a little too close to on the money. So every 4 years at Google, I would pivot, right? I would find something, I would become highly efficient at it, I would work myself out of a job, and then I'd find the next thing, right? So I did this 4 times throughout. I remember doing it for the 4th time. I was sitting in Newark Airport, I was eating a shrimp cocktail, which was very obviously GMO.

Those things are huge.

They're like the size of my— it was weird. I was looking at it and just observing how often do we just sit and look out now. And I was noticing that every single human being, man, woman, child, young, old, grandma with little Timmy sitting right next to her, had not one but almost two devices glued to their faces, right? The grandson was looking at his tablet. He's also looking at what grandma was watching on her phone at the same time. And it dawned on me over GMO shrimp cocktail. Everything that I was doing felt so inconsequential in relation to the amount of influence and dependency that we as a society have on these devices. So my mind went to, oh my God, like, if we are as dependent on these devices as it looks like we are, the securing— the security of these devices is is extremely critical. It is almost more important than locks on our doors and airbags in our cars because we're only in those things a few hours of the day. We are on our devices 4 times as much.

Yes. That was the moment. That is, I mean, again, extraordinary times we really live in now. I think we really have a lot of opportunities more than we've ever had in human history, in my opinion. Because when my grandparents were alive back then, you get a high school degree and you're pretty much done with studying. You don't have to learn anything. You don't have to open another book in your life. You do the same job for what, 20 years, 25 years, and you retire, you get the gold watch. But those days are long gone. So something you've said I think is really insightful. Cybersecurity is the immune system of the digital ecosystem. What do you mean by that, and how should leaders think differently about cyber today as opposed to like 10 years ago?

Okay, so you served in the Navy, right? So you know the importance of having a disciplined healthcare routine. Yes, right. So if we think about cybersecurity as a living, breathing organism, very similar— actually, I would say an enterprise, let me take it up a level— enterprise is a living, breathing organism, like almost like a human body. Then the cybersecurity that pins it is essentially the immune system. I saw— I will never forget, there are certain moments in your life where you just remember quotes, remember certain concepts. One of them was with, um, a woman by the name of Gabrielle Lyon, and she was talking about how America does not have an obesity problem, America has a muscle problem, right? If we think about instead of— and there's several books about this, right? The subtraction problem. If you stop thinking about positioning things as taking things away, think about things as adding things towards something, and then you're spinning it in a slightly more positive way and feeling psychologically that you're gaining something out of something that you're doing. So if you think about, you know, technical debt, bad habits, no MFA, all of this like unwanted stuff, obesity, and what we instead make it about a positive thing of building resilience, building muscle, then you all of a sudden have a very different perspective. Because muscle itself, it doesn't just exist, right? It requires work. It requires longevity. Like, the older we get, the older our platforms are, the more important this muscle becomes, right? So what leaders need to understand— and when I say leaders, I am not talking about the CISOs. I'm not talking about the operators. I'm talking people, or the people who understand the risks. I am talking about the other 99%, the board members, the executives, the CEOs. We need that discipline. We need that hygiene. We need to think about what something will do to us before we put it into our bodies, right? So that analogy tracks when it, when it comes to everything from bringing in hardware, which we talk about supply chain, you know, intrusions, to technology, which we're probably going to get into AI at some point in this conversation.

Absolutely.

But that's what I mean by the immune That is really powerful, powerful analogy.

I really love that because it really makes the leaders, the executives, to really think differently about cyber. Because I've been in Silicon Valley for about 12 years now. Most companies I have worked for, especially on the startup side, they really think of security and legal privacy as a cost center, something they absolutely have to do only because they want to get those big logos, right? Like many times when I've been the head of cybersecurity for startup, basically the only reason why they hired me is because Microsoft, Google, one of those Fortune 500 companies said, no, I won't buy your product unless you show me that it is secure. And then, okay, check in the box, we have a person here who is an expert and this is their job. But it's not really part of a culture. And I think the way you are describing cybersecurity is definitely a way to kind of shift the mindset.

Yeah.

But now, what leadership lessons from Google still guide your decisions today at Sandbox Secure?

So I continue to follow Eric Schmidt in all of his work that he does, even beyond Google. And I will never forget, he used to say two things and it stays with me today. Scarcity breeds clarity. Three very powerful words. And I remember, I remember that because, you know, going from a big company, not everybody is built for startups. But when you take that innovative and get it done type of mentality, you're— that word, not my job, is no longer in your vocabulary, right? And because you have to be very militant with how you spend your time, you start asking your questions like, Does this make the boat go faster? Is this going to make a meaningful impact on what we're trying to achieve as a mission? What do I truly need in order to be successful? So I find that continues to guide me from a leadership perspective into my career today. The other thing that he said is, take care of the customer, all else will follow. And I believe that wholeheartedly. We have seen startups continue to fail because they they have a product and they're going out searching for a customer. That's not how that works. You should go search for a problem, then build the product, and then your customers will be delighted to buy from you, right?

Yes, yes.

Yeah, I'm simplifying it, but for the most part, you know, if you've done your homework on your addressable market, that should be how it works. So those two are still powerful that I keep with me.

That is really, really great. I mean, for those listening right now, if you put those into practice, I think you could potentially change your life. Just not the way you think and your mindset could pretty much change everything. Isn't that right?

Yeah, indeed. Um, there's— you said long gone are the days where you get an accreditation, 9 to 5, and then you retire. I don't know a single person that falls in the— you know, maybe my network is skewed being in the Bay Area. Some of my favorite people are the ones that can't seem to stay retired.

Yes, yes, right. True, true.

Present company included, probably, right?

Yeah, yeah. Really fascinating because, uh, so we talked about Q-Day as soon as we started because it's something I've been thinking about for a very long time, especially when you, uh, attach that to national security. If you were advising a department— I should call it Department of Defense, maybe should be Department of War now, but a DoW, CIU, or a Fortune 100 CISO today, what is the very first move toward post-quantum readiness, you think? What is one thing they absolutely need to do?

Sure. So I will say I've had the honor of working with the Department of War for quite some time now. I continue to see really exciting things coming out of that leadership on many different levels, and I'm very excited to to see Kirstine Davies, the CIO. Yep, has been making strong moves and just nonstop. The woman doesn't seem like she sleeps. So I'm glad to see that out of an administration that is very focused on national security. When we talk about quantum, what I want, the two sides of the coin that I'd like to paint for the audience is essentially this. Quantum computing right? It has the potential to break codes that protect your money, that protect your messages, and protect the nation, right? The countries that harness this is going— are going to rewrite the rules of power for everybody else on one side. The other side, quantum computing is going to unlock cures that we cannot even imagine, right? It's going to revolutionize energy and materials and help humanity solve problems today that are simply beyond the limits of most— the most powerful machines that we know of.

Yes.

So I mean, that, that is essentially why I stopped like a long time trying to, to make right with the quantum, um, Q-Day as being a positive or a negative. It simply is just going to exist. It's same with AI in many reasons. So what should organizations do? Doomsday prep. I'm not kidding. If you think about preppers What's the first thing that they do? They make a list of all the essentials. They lock up the basics. And within this context, it's going to come down to data because quantum computing, especially from a cybersecurity standpoint— so here's a little known fact. Most small to medium-sized businesses, they don't recover after 6 months of a breach.

Hmm. True.

Do not recover after 6 months of a breach. So if the executives are going to continue prioritizing speed over security, if the executives are going to continue thinking of security as just a cost center, then they need to accept the risk that they are operating under the high potential that there's going to be an existential threat that can hit at any point, whether they know it or not, right? And that's going to lead to an eventual downfall within the next 6 months.

Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that. That is quite insightful. So you wanted to add something else?

Yeah, I think the final point is like with doomsday prep is you really do need to think about survivability, right?

Yes.

So in my line of work, it starts with, you know, you've got data in transit, you've got data at rest, you've got to inventory every key. You've got— you can't— we cannot have shadow IT. We cannot have shadow crypto, shadow AI now. Every certificate, every protocol in your environment, like build in that agility, survivability, because you, if you don't align your roadmap with that as a fundamental layer, you're missing that immune system resilience that we were talking about before.

Yes. Wow. This is worth the price of admission right there for those who are listening, especially those like me who are in cyber and national security and you think deeply about this issue. Thank you. Thank you so much, Kat. Actually, you don't even have to stay. This is it. The interview is over. But no, I am really grateful.

Happy hour time.

You did mention AI. Everybody talks about AI now. I think it looks like we are using it more like a marketing term. It doesn't really mean what it actually means scientifically anymore. But anyway, so people perceive AI as both a shield and a weapon. Where do you see the greatest leadership blind spot when organizations deploy AI into specifically a security environment? Whew. Okay.

So caveat, assuming that it is actually AI.

Yes. Right.

And not just like machine learning on steroids.

Yeah.

If it's actually AI. And then here's the difference. I love using this example when I'm on stage. So I have everybody pull out their phones and then I have everybody look up AI salmon swimming up.

Upstream.

And if you do that, you're gonna get a Google image search of a bunch of salmon fillets jumping upstream. That is machine learning. Or actually, let's just say that is technically AI, but a good example of why AI still has a quite a large, um, a gap to close. I'm not going to say it's not going to get there. I've seen some truly incredible things, like the, the arms race, so to speak, between all the bigs right now for, um, yeah, the large language modeling is the GPTs are, they're shocking. They're, yes, we are not far from a world where you can think something up, you could tell the LLM to code it for you and it will just appear like magic and it will be perfect, right? So imagine the power that that's just like some child, as long as this child has access to a computer, and has an idea can truly create the next unicorn business if they have the right idea. That's the power that we've put in the hands of technology. But from a security standpoint, assuming that all of those things, those wonderful things can exist, the best advice that I would give leadership is think like a criminal. Think like a criminal. If you— anybody who's watching has teenagers or used to be a teenager at one point, remember all the things you did to hide what you were doing from your parents. Now that has helped you, uh, maybe not necessarily be better parents, but at least be more aware of all the tricks, right? It's like, you don't hustle a hustler. I know your tricks. I did them, and I was better at not getting caught than you.

That's right.

That is, that is how I would approach this is we should be doing table talk exercises. We should be doing bug bounties. We should be trying to continually crack into every single vulnerable spot that we have. It is an incredibly important thing to stress test. And also, I mean, I wouldn't over-index it, right? Because this is a non-trivial amount of investment. Every, you know, additional 0.9 that you go out for the potential realm of intrusion at some point, you will be balancing what the acceptable risk is with what the, you know, the compute cost is to run off of this. But if you think like a criminal and understand, you know, all where, where your vulnerabilities are, especially with regard to AI, you will do better at securing that than others that don't. Wow.

Quite insightful. Now let me ask you this. Something with AI, it looks like now when it really exploded, I guess 2023, I think is really when everybody got onto this bandwagon. People were like, well, AI is going to make your job more efficient and not really replace jobs. But the truth is, especially in Silicon Valley, we've seen companies like Google, Meta actually get rid of their software engineers, if you can believe that. I've come to Silicon Valley like 12 years ago. If you are a software engineer here, you're almost like a demigod. I mean, people worship you, but now it's like being replaced But yeah, but of course, Google and Meta are hiring them back because they couldn't really scale in production. But the point being, people going to school right now, Gen Z, my kids, they feel like, well, would there even be a job for me when I am out of school? What would you advise someone who's just getting started in their career about what they need to do to prepare for this AI-enabled world so they stay competitive?

Yeah. Okay, AI is going— what I would say to them is AI is going to change literally everything that we do. Everything that we do. Again, do not think about it from a positive or a negative side, right? Think about it. It is simply going to exist. What are you going to do? A good example, a friend of mine used this. Back in the Industrial Revolution, when Thomas Edison commercialized the light bulb, right? Everybody was worried it was going to affect the job industry because there were Literally human beings filling up every single lamppost on the streets, delivering oil to each of the houses so they could light their houses at night. And then also heating and all of that stuff. Well, that's a little bit different, but that whole industry was going to go under with the rapid adoption of light bulbs. And yet here we are. We're still here as a humanity and we've survived that. We've innovated beyond that. I would encourage every single person to think about what job it is that they want to do, how AI is going to impact it and how to get ahead of that. What can AI not do that makes you valuable? Right? So a good example of this is I can make a full-length music video if I wanted to with AI-generated song, with an AI-generated generated imagery in a movie and create the entire thing. I no longer need a production studio. I no longer need a degree in fine arts. I don't need any of this, right? So, okay, based off of that, what do I do then to, you know, what do I study? Well, maybe study how this technology actually puts all of that together and maybe study storytelling in a way that is more aligned to psychology, like create Opportunities for yourself to learn how to amplify AI, weaponize what you do, as opposed to, I'm going to find an industry that AI is not going to touch.

That is very, very good advice. So let me ask you this. What keeps you up at night these days?

Oh, God. Well, when I'm not doing red eyes on airplanes, Um, I do really worry about, uh, the— I do really worry about the fact that the world doesn't seem to be very serious about cyber. Um, and with how connected everything about our lives are now with the internet, it's very very dangerous not to be acknowledging that risk. Like, we've got water turbines that are connected to the internet and, um, OT and IT convergence that a workforce is not prepared to handle. We've got a critical infrastructure that is— wasn't never meant to last more than 10 years, and it's going on 70 now, right? We're hooking up things that have never been hooked up or meant to be hooked up to the internet to the internet, and How are we securing that? So if, like, if, if a nation-state chose to do so and it had intruded into critical infrastructure, specifically the water supply, they would just need to change the amount of fluoride that they— that is being added into the water supply by a small degree and poison an entire city.

Yes, yes.

Uh, what keeps me up at night is is these healthcare devices that we all wear now, some of them are embedded in our bodies, are connected to the internet. What is the scenario where a hacker could hack into these insulin pumps and take hundreds of thousands of American lives hostage without ever having to kidnap a single one? Wow. I walked into a friend's house. This is a former commander, right? Um, and I said, is that an insulin pump? Is that a refrigerator that's connected to the internet? It had a giant LCD screen on there.

Wow.

And she turns to me and she says, I challenge you to walk into any store and find a refrigerator that doesn't have one.

Hmm.

That's the world we live in. So that's what keeps me up at night is like, I, I no longer, uh, I don't want, I won't say I no longer worry about this, but the concerns that I have with a child getting hit by a car while crossing the street is way lower than— yes, everything I mentioned before.

Wow, man, the world we live in. It's, uh, so what, what do you think then, as a society, some of the things we probably should do? Because it looks like we're not going to be able to stop that. Like, even cars you drive— we love Teslas here in California, but basically all it is is a supercomputer connected to the internet too. And we've had in the past where people were actually able to hack a Tesla and be able to actually drive it without anybody being on it and Tesla having to come up with a super patch to fix that. But what the average person out there, what do you think is something they need to be mindful of or think about doing just to kind of reduce their own personal risk, you think?

Yeah, there's a lot, but I'll start with this. So let's say we're not talking to an audience of CISOs. Let's say we're not talking to an audience of business executives. I would expect that most executives that watch podcasts understand the digital ecosystem very well and are actively participating in it, right? Either through digital transformation of their own companies or otherwise. I would say leaning into oral tradition. If you spend your time like once a day, maybe twice a week, pick anything you want and strike up a conversation with a stranger and leave them with a piece of information that helps them be more cyber secure.

Yes.

You're gonna go tell two people in their lifetime, probably more, um, right? Just make it provocative. Just say, oh, Did you know TikTok is tracking your eye movement when you're on it? Do you know that? How do you feel about that? You don't care? Okay, all right, cool, awesome. Um, good to know. Well, wow, just in case you do some someday care, everything that you like, everything that you do, what you spend time on is actually going to this giant database. That database is getting optimized to figure out how to create, to make you more addicted to this stuff.

Yes.

Um, you are no longer— and then like, I mean, you know, depending on who you're talking to, I go down real deep sometimes, like cognitive warfare. You don't need to go that hard. But, um, if, if everybody can just share like one— oh, don't use a password, use a passphrase, and use a password manager. Why? Because, you know, if you reuse your passwords, blah blah blah, use MFA. Like, just just tells them one thing. Just, if you don't want your money to get stolen, you got to use a passphrase.

Yeah.

Or call up Grandpa and say, Grandpa, I will never call you and ask for money, ever, ever. Yes, I will come to you in person and ask you for money, but I will never call you. So if anybody says that anybody is our family and is trying to call you and they need $10,000 right away, hang You know, just small things. Let's just put it all together.

Because it's just like common sense in many, many ways. I guess common sense is becoming more uncommon these days. Like the other day, I had to write a post about this. Kids today, I think they observe a thousand kids, they're out taking their books, but instead of reading the book, they think it's an iPad. So they are clicking like it's a computer screen instead of turning the pages and reading. It was just crazy, the type of things that are happening now. But anyway, so I kind of feel like maybe we need to do more with public-private partnership. And I know at SandboxAQ, that is something that you do. Do public-private partnership often discussed but not really optimized? What does a functional cyber ecosystem actually look like in your opinion?

Yeah, so I mean, this is actually very timely, especially since there was the CIRCIA and the experts. We used to have a method for sharing information. So let me take a step back. A real cyber ecosystem means we stop treating national security as corporate security as two separate problems, right? National security, corporate security, they should be the same thing. Right? Because chances are we're getting attacked, if not by the same entities, but in the same way. Because it's the same technology that underpins both, right? The cybersecurity platforms, the largest ones in the world, they sell to both, both sides of that coin. The network, the responsibility is shared. So a true ecosystem is kind of like a phone-a-friend type of situation, or like, hey, this is what's happening. What are you seeing? Can we share? We see these things with like ISACs and whatnot. At the state level, there are some states that are really leaning hard into this and saying, okay, we're offering a, you know, a cyber operations center, security operations center as a service. Anybody who gets breached or anybody needs help, you can contract for, contract us with our services. We'll help you do X, Y, and Z. But in return, like, we do need to know if you guys ever get ransomware or breached. We're going, because we're going to bubble up to the rest of the state so that that one person's— it's almost like an immune system again. Like you get an anomaly coming in and then everybody swarms to attack it. And now you've built antibodies across the entire organism.

Yeah. Wow. I really love that analogy. It makes it— I guess one thing I like about you is you take very complex things and you make them quite simple. In the green room, you were saying sometimes We see it in your work where you don't want to be too technical because most people are not going to understand, but you really bring it down to where the common man can say, yes, this makes sense and maybe there is something I can do different. So thank you so much for adding so much value to our organization. So we have about 20 minutes left. I'm going to get into more of your mind, kind of go behind the curtain and see why you are so successful and what makes you you and what we can probably learn from your example and from your experience. So I'm going to start by asking, what do you believe is the greatest lesson you have ever learned, whether it's in life, in leadership, in cyber, or just in general? Yeah. Okay.

All right, here we go. Pain is weakness leaving the body.

Hmm.

Pain is weakness leaving the body. That is the most— and let me extrapolate that. Um, some of the most inspirational people that I know of are the ones that came from extremely humble beginnings. And I'm not talking about people who are successful from, uh, having a life of privilege. Yes, I'm talking about the ones that somehow grew to be astronauts from extremely humble beginnings. Things, right? Um, and when I look at all of those accomplishments, I realize that a big part of that is embracing failure, um, and understanding that it's not just, uh, an obstacle, it is an enabler. Yes, right. So, um, I continue to do hard things every day, and some days you feel like you just got kicked in the stomach repeatedly. And the next day you've got to decide whether or not you're going to get back up. And the choice to do that is what helps you build a discipline and resilience right up here, right? So, um, one of the— you had asked like, what do I remember from Google that has made me a strong leader?

Yes.

It's not just Eric's quotes about scarcity breeds clarity, but I find inspiration from people all over, especially in the military. So your history in the United States Navy, Admiral McRaven.

Yeah.

He is very well known for saying, if you want to change the world, start off by making your bed.

Yeah.

Do small, habitual, discipline-oriented things. It's cognitive training at that point so that when life gets hard and things are difficult, like you have the conditioning psychologically, it's, it's all psychological that, um, will help you push through. So the best advice that I could give people and the greatest learning that I've ever had, don't— I mean, take the easy way out if that's the, the, if that's appropriate for the situation, but do not shy away from doing difficult things because we only know what we're capable of once we fall down and get back up. We have to get our hearts broken to learn to love ourselves. We have to go through a lifetime of trauma in order to know how strong we are. So do hard things.

That's powerful. Wow. So you have to be the man in the arena.

Yeah. It's—

wow. Powerful. So what do you believe then is the secret to your success? Why have you been so successful?

Yes. So I'm going to rephrase that a little bit. I think about success slightly differently. Even in failure, if you get value out of that, it is time well spent. So success is going to look very different for many different people.

Yes.

If I defined success based off of 25-year-old Kat Wang, it would look very different. I would have a very different life because when you're that age, a lot of times success is defined by specific milestones, accomplishments, or even financial independence. What I've reoriented it now is fulfillment. How fulfilled am I in what I do? Do I feel— do I— and part of that is also being very introspective. So being a good leader and feeling fulfilled is understanding what makes you tick, what gets you out of bed in the morning. Because if you understand that level of yourself, you're more likely to know how to manage yourself out of predicaments. Yeah. So I would say, um, what makes me fulfilled— I, I know that I am highly mission-oriented. I know that if, you know, the, the came between speed or security, I would choose security. If, you know, if I found myself in a position to take the easy way that would hurt somebody or do the hard way and go together, I would pick the latter. Even being able to understand whether or not you're coin-operated, right? There's nothing inherently bad or good or bad about it, but if that is something when you know about yourself, then being fulfilled in what you do and helping yourself achieve that will translate into success.

Wow. Thank you. Thank you so much. You are definitely our master teacher today. Now, beyond science, technology, AI, cybersecurity, and quantum, those principles really, if you do apply them, I mean, they could literally, literally change your life. Part of the reason why I do this podcast, because I remember I came to this country, I was 17 years old, speak English. I had all of those huge dreams, but I didn't know how to go from point A to point B. I wish I knew back then what I know now. So that's why I am hoping I am making this available for those aspiring leaders in tech and in the military. And maybe something you say today would absolutely change their life. So thanks again. So what are you learning right now? I know leaders are learners. What type of things you've been getting into these days?

Hmm. Um, so I've actually been very interested in cyberpsychology. Um, I can expand on that. I've also been very interested in, um, uh, just biohacking in general too. Like you'll find, and then this is where like introspection is important. Um, whenever I was told I can't do something, I don't know if it's defiance or if it's like a problem with authority. I was just like, like, well, are you sure it can't be done? Just, just try to find a way. I was like, really though? Like, what about for me? Are you sure?

Okay. Yes.

So if you can understand, like, you know, what it is that, uh, um, why certain things make you tick— this is part of the reason why I want to better understand biohacking, because I, I do think I find parallels with Oh, you'll get more bang out of your buck if you lift weights for 40 minutes as opposed to go for a run for 5 miles.

Yeah, you know what I mean?

It's like value versus effort. So, um, I am trying to take a lot of what I'm learning, feeding— like, like sifting through a lot of the fitness culture because there's a lot of bad stuff out there, very similar to like the vaporware or snake oil that you see in the industry. Like, very quickly assess what that looks like and then pursue the things that are interesting. But then find the parallels that actually benefit other parts of your life professionally, because you never know when those adjacencies help, right? Um, the other one is these cyber psychology— like, what is it about ransomware or phishing or smishing that is so effective? Like, how is it that cyber criminals have better understood psychology and how to unlock our brains and exploit that, where that is still the number one way of, um, uh, successful way of carrying out a breach.

How?

So the more I, I understand the psychology behind it, the more I can understand how to think like a criminal, the more, um, we can integrate that strategy into our resilience.

That is quite, uh, fascinating. You've mentioned a couple of times, uh, about failure. I mean, I love this gun I have one side is success. It was given to me by one of my skippers. The other side is failure. So success and failure being two sides of the very same coin.

Yeah.

How has failure shaped your life? We know about all of your successes. Again, huge, huge congratulations. You are on Watch 100 2026. Woo-hoo! That is, that is, that is huge.

Thank you.

What about failure throughout your career or personal life? How has that shaped you?

Yeah. So, you know, I have to say, I was very fortunate at Google. I was surrounded by a lot of people that focused on shared successes. I didn't fail all that much by my definition of failure. I did not fall down and have to learn to pick myself up for quite some time. It was when I left home, so to speak, and joined startups that I understood how to identify red flags when I saw them, to quickly identify people of consequence when I saw them, to understand what good culture is and how culture eats strategy every day of the week. There are several failures where I trusted people I shouldn't have, or I did not listen to my own intuition. Or I, um, stayed in scenarios, situations longer because I had a desire and a commitment to make it work when other people didn't share the same commitment. So all of these though, like I said, pain is weakness leaving the body. You are going to have to, to deal with some of this and it's going to hurt. Work. Like, there was, there was one year where I lost 20 pounds because of the work environment that I was in. Yeah, when you start to see physiological manifestations of the stress on your body, that is when you have to listen. If you do not, that's— nobody stands to benefit from that.

Yes. Wow, thank you so much for sharing that. What did you learn through that experience?

Um, lots. I learned, um, I think the biggest thing is I learned, uh, my time is very valuable. Yes, there is no amount of money ever bought a second of time, right? That's the quote from, um, Iron Man. So if time is our most valuable currency, do not waste it. That's what I learned.

Wow, powerful. Powerful. Thank you, man. So many wisdom nuggets today. Really appreciate that. Uh, we have about 6 minutes left. I think I can land this plane on time. If you could choose 3 people, 3 people to have dinner with, who would you choose and why? They could be alive, dead, or even fictitious characters.

Oh, you know, I really wish I could have met Charlie Munger in my lifetime. I've spoken to other peers and colleagues who have, and he just not only seemed like a really, just an incredible businessman.

That was the number one of Warren Buffett, right?

Yes. Yes. So not only just an incredible businessman, but then the kind of insights that he would offer would not only be profound, but also it carried a sense of jovialness, or what I'm looking for. It was just a happy statement, right? Where you would hear it and you— so one of my favorite quotes is, um, uh, mimicking the herd invites regression to the mean. There's so much to unpack there, especially as we talk about, um, taking chances, right? Like, we, we didn't— we didn't go into outer space by trying to follow the status quo. Yeah, it was just incredible. So the other person that I would love to meet is, um, uh, Dr. Sarah Payne. She is a professor at the Naval War College in Rhode Island. Wow. Yeah. Um, I continue to watch her on YouTube and her, her assessments of, uh, warfare and like history. She's a specialist in, um, I think China and Russia, especially as it pertains to like, um, uh,— what's the word I'm looking for? Um, just war history, right? And Vietnam War and how it actually traces back beyond, like, not even just the '50s but also the '40s and earlier, and how the dynamics between China and Russia and the United States has changed over the last, what, 100 years or so? Yeah. So, um, she's, she's another person. The third Einstein.

Yeah, Albert Einstein.

Yes, I would really love to meet him. He, um, I read some of his, his work, and I do think his concept of paradoxical thinking really helped me get through a lot. So both truths could be accurate at the same time, especially when it comes to like talking about quantum, like both of those statements can be true, Schrödinger's cat, right? I gravitate towards people whose ways of thinking help me make peace or at least shortcut the processing between the statement and the impact.

Wow, powerful. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. So if, well, Let me ask you this. Is there a book you would recommend to my audience right now? We do read a lot here.

Um, you know, I, I— the last book, yes, the last book that I read, and I've been actually telling everybody about it, is this book called, um, Battlefield Cyber.

Hmm.

So in your intro, yes, that's the one. So I've read it twice now, and I really enjoyed it. I've actually recommended to several people who are maybe not familiar with cybersecurity and just need to understand how this fits in with the overall digital ecosystem. It is very digestible, it's very well written, written by Michael McLaughlin, who is actually also Navy Intel Cyber Command and then also now a cybersecurity attorney. So I would recommend that one.

Battlefield Cyber. And you also recommended this book, one of my mentors, Admiral William Makradon, make your bid. Why should people read this one? It's a pretty small book, by the way.

Yeah, it is. I would say people are going to take different things away from the book. What I am taking away is definitely the need for the small things. We have so much of technology automating our lives now. What is the tactile value of actually going in and making your bed? What do you notice from that? Not only the discipline of doing it and the, the habit, the ritual that you may get some comfort out of. But you may discover when you walk into your room and you see a made bed, if you did nothing else that day, you did that. And it's a clean space, not messy, not anxiety-ridden. Like, you would be surprised how small things can change your perspective or even your mood. Wow.

So is there maybe like a song, a book, or even a movie that would be your life's theme or anthem? Anything comes to mind?

Uh, oh golly, um, nothing comes to mind for now. I haven't really watched anything new lately.

Like, I know I've been playing the piano since I was 7 years old, and music has a huge huge part in my life. Sometimes when I'm feeling sad or whatever, there's music that can completely change my outlook on life, or, you know, something happened in my life and if I listen to a song, it takes me back to a specific milestone or something.

But I, I will say, thank you for that. That's actually, uh, reminding me one thing that I would suggest, and this is a special, like, mental hack from me to you. When I need to do deep work, I listen to music that is is clinically proven to stimulate brain function.

It is.

And this is my personal statistic, right? I've found that I'm about 30% more productive. If I have to deep work for 3 hours, I could get it done in 2.

Wow.

Yes. And it is a very high fidelity, but I will put it on, I will timebox it, I will shut everything else out. But the music is actually, to your point, very triggering and very powerful.

And what type of music? Is it classical music or something else?

Lately, I've shifted more towards classical, a lot of Beethoven, a lot of other Tchaikovsky and whatnot. But low, like I would say mostly low to medium kind of register, maybe at the tiniest little beat in the back. Some people, especially coders or people who need to go deep, they find that they resonate very well with like a higher level, like EDM or whatnot. So if you can find out what your brain hack is, just like use it.

Powerful. Yeah, I really love classical. When I first started to learn to play piano, that's what I, I was doing. And when I was a kid, we would listen to classical music every time we, we— it really made a difference for me. But thank you, thank you for, for sharing that. So, um, if you had one and only one day to live, uh, what would you have liked your final contribution to be?

Uh, if— oh, okay, what would I like my final contribution be? Oh boy. For people to care about the value of their data.

Well, you must be— wow, that's pretty, pretty, pretty cool. I see.

I didn't need very much time to respond to that. Yeah, yeah. Care about your data. Please care about your data. You say it's—

yeah, I guess that's what you were born to do, what you're doing now. That's— that is, that is, that is—

oh, I'm sorry, was that not a professional question? It's great.

No, it is, it is, it This is perfect. Okay.

Okay.

I've probably interviewed over what, 300 people now. Most people, they talk about their families and things like that, but no, this is perfect. I love it. I love it. I'm sorry. No, no, it's great. So let me ask you a follow-on question then. If you had the magic wand, you could solve any problem in the world, what is the one problem you'd like to solve first thing tomorrow morning?

Oh my goodness. Wow, solve one problem. Um, okay, uh, I would like— I, I do believe that some of our best work can only be done when Maslow's hierarchy of needs are fully met.

Yes.

So if we look at the global— sorry to go on a larger tangent, but like, we look at the global population, that decline is a very big problem. Like, it's— if anybody's curious about it, um, uh, here's a good book. It's by, um, Peter Zion, and it's called The End of the World Is Just the Beginning. He talks a lot about the global population decline and how it's, um, yes, kind of manifesting across China. There are some countries are gonna get hit really badly. Japan is one of them, you know, some of the other ones. America and France are going to be okay according to, you know, the research that he's done in his book. It's very well researched, very high fidelity. Um, but, uh, I believe that if we really aren't making babies at the same rate that we were before, the global population is shrinking, um, we don't have a replacement generation to take over some of the jobs and the infrastructure that the current workforce is producing, then the results are going to come from two places. AI and whatever automation robotics can bear the load. And the second is we need to activate, and I do mean activate, every single human on the planet and their brain power in order to address that and get over that from not only a economic standpoint, but also a almost humanitarian standpoint that can only be done if they don't have to worry about food and shelter.

True, true.

So it's fixing something that's super basic, like feed the world, give them clean water. And if they can have that, then we start to change the paradigm a little bit because now they don't need to worry about the basics of survival. They can do other things.

Wow. Yeah, that is really, really deep. Thank you for sharing that. So if you had to hear of every cyber leader in America right now for like 60 seconds, what would you tell them to do tomorrow morning?

Oh boy. I would say, I I have mad respect for the cybersecurity leaders. I believe that they truly do know what their priorities are. I would say, you know, it's outside of cyber leadership is not about preventing an attack. It's about ensuring the organization can take a hit and then keep on operating, find a way to, to, to make the latter part happen. Try to find a way to quantify the value of what you do so that the board knows that security is part of the operation. Like, if you, if you don't have, if you don't have it in you to secure your product, then you don't have it in you to run an enterprise organization.

Hmm, powerful. Well, if Good thing comes to an end. Uh, what can we do to add value back to you, Kat?

Oh my goodness. Um, first thing, take something that you've learned from some cybersecurity professional, whether this podcast or something else, go tell a friend. Go help elevate the, um, global understanding of cyber resilience. Do, do one thing. Um, if you'd like you had fun today. My speaking style is very similarly to how I communicate on LinkedIn. Feel free to check that out. I drop what I call brain snacks, very digestible content. A lot of times it's articles and the algorithm will take over, right? Like if you click on something, you find it interesting, the algorithm will start sending you more thoughtful pieces about this and you will start to learn more. So I hope— oh, please care about your data. Data. That was the third thing. Please care about your data. Everything that you do, every interaction, even how many times you pick up your phone is being tracked. And if you do not care about what is happening to that data or how it's being used to classify you, or maybe how it's even being secured, then your entire digital identity is just out there in the ether and people are monetizing off of it. They're making money off off of you, or they could try and be using it for some other nefarious purpose. So care about your data.

All right, so, uh, I'm gonna ask you one more question before we end, but first let me ask you, is there a question I should have asked you I didn't get a chance to ask? Anything else?

Rubik's Cubes, I get that all the time.

Okay, you want to answer?

Uh, sure. So, um, okay, this is my favorite cube here, and my favorite, I mean, I hate this cube with a fiery passion. So if you look at this cube. It's the same size, same, or like, or like 3x3. However, it has got no color anywhere on them, which means, you know, it's very— and it's not cut evenly, right? It's on an axis. So yeah, is when you turn it, this occurs. Wow, it changes shape. So if you were going to mess this which, please, for the love of God, don't. Um, no, like, I, I will glue this thing shut, but I can't for demonstrative purposes. It'll look like this horrible jumbled thing. And what the reason why I have this is to remind myself, I know how to solve this. I can solve this in 30 seconds. This is the exact same algorithm. However, it's got no colors on it, and it looks different. So this is here to remind me when I see a new problem, it's not really new, it's just different. I take the same skills that I have on knowing how to solve this one to solve this one. I will get there or die trying.

Yes. Wow. That's quite a lesson.

Yeah.

I love it. I love it. So yeah, I guess we are about what, 8 minutes? Of the time. So I am going to shut it down. I could speak to you for hours and hours and hours. So fascinating, so interesting. And you have so many lessons learned that really could make a difference. So I guess my last question, I want to end on a positive note. What is something you are feeling optimistic about these days?

I do have high expectations for artificial Intelligence. Yes. And quantum technology. So I'll tell you, we didn't talk much about the company that I work for, and that's great. Like, I think there's a lot of things that people can read, but there's ways that you can apply quantum technology today without a quantum computer. The two are not quite the same, right? So one of the things that we're doing is we're using quantum technology and quantum simulation capabilities through data simulation, and we're ingesting massive quantities of of everything that we could find, right, to understand how the brain works. Because if we can— or the body— if we can utilize quantum simulation to ingest a very small subset of highly accurate data, then we can start to find ways to cure incurable diseases. Like the people who You know, have drugs. When you, when you get to, um, the pharmaceutical industry, it's like a $9 billion industry. And with a greater than 90% failure rate, it takes 10 years from someone to go from, you know, research into like drugs in the hands of consumers. 10 years. How many lives do we lose during that time? Um, so if you can shorten that with, um, quantum simulation, through in a computer, you shorten the timeline for drug discovery, and then you start, you know, clinical trials in like 1/10 of the time. Then you start to do life-saving drug discovery, um, with low failure rate. And then we reduce the costs of, of consumers to buy it, because when you're buying the drugs right now, you're not paying for how much it costs to develop that drug, you're paying for how much it costs to develop the drugs that failed.

Yes, yes. Wow, that could be life-changing.

It would be energy storage and all of that. You can imagine the, the, the AI quantum intersection really is extremely powerful, which is why securing it from post-quantum threats, right? If I were a nation-state, why would I invest billions of dollars into educating my own workforce to do innovation when I could just go and steal it from some other nation?

Yes. Wow. All right, uh, that's kind of positive but kind of scary too at the same time. I will, I will take it. So in, in that case, let me ask you this then. What would you— what advice would you give to the 17-year-old version of yourself, knowing everything you know now and all of this incredible career you, you've had? Um, Catherine?

Yep, I have, I have yet It probably will happen tomorrow. I have yet to have a single person who I've reached out to to ask to be my mentor that has said no. So I would tell 17-year-old Catherine, go out there, go find— I call them Obi-Wan Kenobis. Go find yourself like Obi-Wan Kenobis right now. Go find 3, you know, pick 3 areas that you really want to better understand. If it's like, um, leadership, if it is communication, if it is, you know, government affairs or something. Pick one, pick 3 of them and just go and have regular meetings with them and know that they're busy. These people are probably really accomplished in their jobs. Stay agile to what their time, their schedules are, but find time with them. Do it because it'll help you start where they left off.

That is powerful. Okay, we are going to end there. Thank you. Thank you so much. This is is really a master key to success in my own life. Without all of my mentors, it's impossible for me to have accomplished half of whatever I was able to accomplish so far. So thank you. Thank you so much, Catherine. And the very, very last question, uh, what is one word that describes our experience on this podcast today? One word.

Fun.

Fun. And I'm so grateful, privileged, and sorry we went about 10 minutes over, but I am so, so grateful to have this conversation with Thank you so much.

It was wonderful. Thanks for having me, Bob. We'll chat soon.

Okay.

Thank you.

Bye. All right, everybody. This was worth the price of admission. So many, I call them wisdom bombs. She's just so full of wisdom. And if you listen to what she's saying, it's not really that difficult or complex, but it's really something that could add a lot of value in your life. So once again, thank you so much to Kat Wang, Principal Public Sector at SandboxAQ and WASH 120 2023. I can't believe it. All right, so I'm going to be back. I will have 3 interviews on Monday, and I'm gonna be letting you know who those people are tomorrow. But I will be back with our study of the Book of Proverbs. This is not a religious study, it's just focusing on wisdom and leadership lesson from a book written more than 2,000 years ago and how it is still applicable today. So I believe I owe you from chapter 16 all the way to Chapter 20. So I'm gonna make time to make it happen today or tomorrow. All right, until tomorrow, have a wonderful rest of your day and a great weekend. And thanks again for being with me on the Leadership and Success Podcast. Bye for now.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's episode added value to your journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay Stay committed and keep leading with excellence.