S5:E41 🎙️ LIVE with Dana R. Gordon, USN (Ret.) ⚓✈️📘**

Hi, I'm John Maxwell. When the top companies in the world are looking for trainers, speakers, and coaches, there's one name that stands above the rest, and that's Maxwell Leadership. Our certified team members have gotten proven results for companies all over the globe, and our reputation, I'm proud to say, is second to none. Some of our members have risen to the top of their profession, including the one you're going to meet today. I proudly introduce you to my friend, Bob Fabien Zinga.

Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ, where we help you lead with purpose and succeed with impact. If you're ready to grow into the kind of leader others want to follow, this podcast is for you. If you're determined to elevate your success and leave a lasting legacy, this podcast is for you. As my mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell, reminds us, everything rises and falls on leadership. Our goal is simple, to inspire you, challenge you, and equip you with insights that can transform the trajectory of your leadership journey. Welcome aboard. Welcome aboard to another episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast with Coach BZ.

The United States military has produced some of the finest leaders in the world. Retired Navy Captain Dana R. Gordon shares insights into what it takes to develop and train a team as a leader and mentor. Written from years of experience, Team is perfect for the boardroom or small business looking to build their brand. Unlike many books claiming this is the way to do things. TEAM is a subtle suggestion of what has worked, what can work, and what might work as you tailor the information to your specific business and throughout your own personal career. TEAM: Training, Education, and Mentorship. Available now.

Alright everyone, welcome to another very special edition of the Leadership and Success Podcast. I am your host, Coach Bizzy, and we have a very special guest waiting for us in the green room as we speak. So to get started, like we always do, we have to start with our moment of gratitude. As everybody knows, for this entire month, every single day, I've been really grateful for Black History Month. It's February in the United States and this is Black History Month and I am really grateful for the contribution of all of the African American and what they've done really to build America, our country. I love this book and I highly recommend it, African American First: Famous, Little-Known, and Unsung Triumphs of Blacks in America. I believe African American built America and I believe that Black history is American history. So I am so grateful for that. All right. Let me see if I can properly introduce our guest today. We're going to be speaking to now retired Captain Dana Gordon, U.S. Navy. From flying more than 3,500 mishap-free hours in the SH-60B Seahawk to commanding USS Iwo Jima LHD-7— I showed you the picture during the intro— and leading more than 3,250 sailors and Marines. To serving in the Pentagon, to leading crisis response for 5 major hurricanes, to directing engineering operation in industry, to offering leadership books that develop the next generation. So Captain Dana Gordon is the definition of mission-focused, people-centered leadership and is the bestselling author of Team and Lead. We're gonna be talking about those 2 books in just a moment. And he joins us live to break down what leadership truly looks like in the cockpit, on the bridge, in crisis, and in corporate boardroom. Ladies and gentlemen, without any further ado, please help me welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast, the one and only Captain Dana Gordon. Good morning, sir. How are you doing today, Captain?

I am great, BZ. I appreciate you having me on the show.

Absolutely. It's a great honor and privilege, sir, to be talking to you today. Maybe to get started, what is one thing you are grateful for today, sir?

For me, you know, I'm always, always grateful for health, family, and friends. You know, for me, you know, especially you wake up, everybody always jokes, you know, if you wake up every day, that's another great day. But, you know, having done time in the military, a lot of folks, you know, don't have that opportunity. So I'm grateful for that, as always, always grateful for my family and friends and those who continue to support me, love and support and all the things that go in with that and being able to communicate with them. And it's a healthy thing as well.

That is so wonderful. And what is one thing maybe that most people don't know when they first meet you?

You know, I'm a pretty open book. I don't know that there's too many things. I guess if somebody, you know, doesn't— you know, the first time they meet me, maybe they just don't know all the things that I've done. And I take pride in that. I've accomplished a lot. And like I said, I'm grateful for that. But I think that's probably the one thing as I meet people and we have those conversations, it gets into, well, I didn't know you did that. I didn't know you did that. So, but again, a lot of pride in the things that I have done. So I think that's for me is the biggest thing.

Yeah, talking about things that you've done, it's quite an amazing career because you started Georgia Tech, right? As an electrical engineer, and then you became a naval aviator. And I think it's the dream of most sailors I know to be flying. Maybe it's because of Top Gun or something, but anyway, we have a lot of frustrated wannabe pilots in the Navy right now, but you actually got a chance to do it, sir. What did engineering teach you about leadership?

Well, I will tell you the first thing that Georgia Tech taught me was a lot of humbleness. Learning how to develop a process and be humble. Most of the folks, the alumni that have survived there, we always call it survival. Most of the folks that have survived there have been humbled at some point or another. And everybody comes out of high school and they're the top student and all those great things, and then you get thrown in and it's the old story of look left and look right. Well, one or two, you won't be here at the end of the year. And that was absolutely true. Yeah. And so it, it's one of those things where it taught me humbleness. And from that point forward, that carried me throughout my career on being humble, uh, but also being prepared and learning how to be prepared and come up with a process. And that's what I do now. And in the things that I do now as consultant and working with other people all the way through my career in the Navy, as well as in engineering, as Fanatics was always have a process because that process is ultimately gonna get you through what it is you're trying to get done. And that's what I stuck with. And that's what got me through Georgia Tech and beyond and everything else.

That is a very, very important leadership lesson. Thank you so much for sharing, sir. Now, I understand you first put on command at HSL-42. What changed inside of you? What does no one tell you about becoming a commanding officer?

I think it's the weight of the responsibility of doing it. Fortunately for us in aviation, and now even on the ships, you do what's called a fleet up where you start as the XO or second in charge, and then you go, you fleet up to be the commanding officer. And so you get a chance to kind of sit side saddle in the second seat and watch what's happening. And even then, you know, it's good and you learn a lot. And I had some great COs that I worked for as XO. But when you ultimately take over in the seat, As you just mentioned, that ultimate responsibility comes to you. And what I think you realize is the final decision is yours. It's one of those things where whether you're sending people on deployment or you're on a deployment, you have to talk to folks about orders and things that may or may not work for them and their family. And then ultimately, the one thing that most commanding officers are tough on is nonjudicial punishment. Folks don't follow the rules or do things.

Yes.

You have to dish that out, and it's That's unfortunate in some cases, but good order and discipline requires that you do that. And in a lot of cases, you're affecting folks and their families and their careers when you do that. So those are probably the 3 things, you know, the deployments and the orders that you have to give in some cases to put people in harm's way, as well as the nonjudicial punishment, how it affects people and their families.

Absolutely. And man, what a career that is. I remember when I was selected to command. I mean, it's very exciting, it's thrilling, Challenging, but it's also quite, I don't know, I guess the most joy I had was to really see my seller promote. There was nothing quite like that, but definitely some real challenges. What do you believe, sir? What is one of the greatest lessons you learned in command?

You know, I think the biggest one is be careful what you say. You know, I had, you know, my master chiefs and even some of the other folks tell me that, say, hey, you know, Because you're in charge, you're the person, you're the guy or the girl in charge. Be careful what you say because people will take things literally because you are in charge. And I had that happen, and that's a funny story. You know, my air crewmen, you know, great guys and girls that we flew with throughout in the community as a helo pilot. And I walked in their shop one day, and they had some stuff going on in there. And I just kind of looked around and looked at one of the— on the walls and it was a little discolored. And I made mention, I said, hey, you know, you probably should touch the wall up over here. And their senior chief, who's retired Master Chief now, comes back to my office about a day later and goes, hey sir, let's go down to the shop. I want you to see, you know, the guys painted the shop, they painted the room. I was like, what are you talking about? So I didn't say that right away. I said, okay. And we walked down and I looked and they were standing proud to present the room to me. It was great. And, and, you know, I congratulated them and all that as we walked back to my office. The senior chief at the time said, "Sir, you didn't tell them to paint the room, did you?" I was like, "Ah, no, actually I didn't. I just mentioned the discoloration of some of the areas there." So I learned that lesson that what you say kind of can be taken in many different ways. And I especially learned that and made sure I didn't say that on Iwo Jima when we got a ship that's 3 football fields long and started talking about paint because my bosun's mates and all the other guys, the first lieutenant would have killed me trying to do that. So you have to be very careful in what you say.

Absolutely. Yeah, that is really, really funny, especially I remember when I was in boot camp as a Seaman Recruit, man, I had such great, great respect, admiration for senior officers, especially the flag. It was just crazy. But what about something— what was one of the most challenging experiences for you as a commanding officer. It doesn't matter which, which commando you, you use.

Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously, you know, very different between the two. One, you know, commanding a squadron of 380 people versus a ship with 16 departments and, you know, uh, all the Marines and, and all the other stuff, aircraft and ships and things. Um, you know, I think the most challenging in both cases is just the coordination and making sure that, that we're doing what we have to do. I mean, there, you know, I had One instance, we were going across the Atlantic when I first took over the ship, probably a weekend. I took over just before Christmas. And we're going across the Atlantic, and we hit a storm. And then I had to make a decision on how we're going to transit the storm and not damage aircraft and do things. But we still had to get somewhere on time. And so we had to slow down, and we had some things get damaged. Nothing major, but we did have some damage because of the storm. But, you know, that was probably the one time I realized, holy smokes, I'm in charge and I'm the guy that's making the ultimate decision on what we're going to do. And so that one for me was kind of eye-opening because at the time, again, as the XO, you're like, oh, what's the captain going to do? But now as the captain, I get to make the decision. And again, we survived, obviously, you know, no damage, no, you know, no significant damage, I should say. We did have some things that got broken. But, you know, ultimately at the end of that deployment of 8 months, we came home with every sailor, no lost aircraft and no major injuries or anything like that. So it was a successful deployment for us.

Was that when, sir, you realized kind of the weight of command? Because that is quite real.

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Because, you know, that point forward, you know, as we're doing things, you know, transiting the Suez and down off the Yemen and doing evacuations and things like that, you start to realize, you know, this is real. You know, your orders come directly, in some cases, from the President and his, you know, the Joint Chiefs. And, you know, it's not from, you know, in the squadron, I had a Commodore or something like that. But now these are coming directly, and these are world-affecting things that are happening, world-influencing things that we're doing. So yeah, that became real. Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. And I know for those who don't understand this, you know, we do a lot of exercises in the Navy, and I guess the other branches too. But but when it's real life, I mean, to make sure this is real life, this is not an exercise, so you've got to put your training into place. Now let me ask you this, so for what, I don't know, your two tours of command, have you ever lost a sailor?

Fortunately, no, I did not. I've not lost any sailors, uh, during my time in command as XO or CO, you know. Yes, definitely very fortunate in that, and you know, a lot of that has to do with the great leaders that worked with and for me when I was XO and CO, even when I was department head, you know, really, really good sailors. And they, you know, that leadership team, you know, made sure we paid attention to detail in a very, very dangerous environment, especially, you know, if you're talking about flying a helicopter off a single spot ship, 'cause I wasn't a carrier guy, I was a frigate cruiser destroyer guy. So we're talking about single spot landings on the back of that little tiny thing right there that, you know, at night looks like Post-it, yeah, it looks like a Post-it stamp. That was after one of our rescues. As a matter of fact, we did a rescue 100 miles away from the ship during a tropical storm. But so it's just, you know, a lot of different things that, that go on, but very fortunate we didn't lose anyone in either one of my tours.

I'm sure, and I need to find it. You, you take a lot of great, great pictures. There was a picture I saw, it was a landing. It looks like it was extremely dangerous and the weather wasn't right. I'm going to find it, but man, This can be kind of scary. I think people who are not in the Navy, they don't understand how it's really a matter of life and death many times when you are in uniform.

Yeah. Wow. It's training though. I mean, it's just one of those things where you train and over time you train and you get used to it. It's like playing sports. Obviously I grew up playing sports and a lot of people have done that, but repetition over time, muscle memory and those types of things and a lot of training. And again, a lot of people support you to do that. Yes. Get you to that point. To where it's never a comfortable thing, but at the same time you still, you know, figure out, okay, I got to get done. You know, that, that is not me. I just want you to check that. That is actually not me, but that I have been in that situation many, many times. That's personally not me, but that's not uncommon.

I will tell you that right now. This looks so dangerous, my goodness.

Yeah, that's about 15 feet, as the caption said, 15 feet off the water because I was on a frigate. But yeah, that— a frigate or destroyer, either one of them. But yeah, you're low. And again, it's a single-spot ship. It's not— we used to always joke with our buddies that flew on the carriers. It's not the luxury of flying on the carrier, landing. And although when I was on EWA, I definitely appreciated the ride. Because it was definitely a lot better than one of those small boys.

Yeah, I can't imagine. And one thing I wanted to ask, if you're willing to share, sir, Are there maybe one mistake you are willing to share that you made early in command that kind of shaped how you led afterward?

You know, I mean, I don't know. I think maybe from a mistake standpoint, I don't know that there was anything specific. Again, like I said earlier, being careful about what I said around folks and doing things. You know, from a mistake standpoint, you know, not a ton of things, fortunately. You know, there were some calls that I made that we could have done better on. Didn't get us in any trouble, but, you know, I wouldn't call them mistakes. I would call them resets, if you want to say that. But, yeah, from a mistake standpoint, I mean, we had some close calls, but, you know, Most people call them learning experiences. I think that's what we'll call them.

Yes, sir. And I think your mindset really has a lot to do with how you get back up whenever you fall. But what did stepping into such huge responsibility feel like? And how did you go into it, especially on the EOG? That was a considerable command.

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, you take, for me, again, because we did the fleet up, I mean, I think that's probably the most comfortable thing for me from a comfort standpoint, the fact that I stepped into something that I was already there for a year and a half to be able to kind of promote up into. You know, I used to be amazed at the, before the ships did it, they would just have a guy just jump in, a guy or girl just jump in and be the commanding officer of a ship. That they didn't know a single person on the ship until they got there. They may have known a few people, but they didn't know the rhythm, the culture, anything about the ship. And so for me, fortunately, I had that year and a half working for my great CO, Jim McGovern, who, you know, taught me a ton about amphibious ships because, again, I had done the cruiser destroyer fleet world. And so he taught me, you know, we got a ship, we got aircraft, 31 aircraft. We also have this thing in the back where we drop the back out and we start lowering aircraft, lowering our boats out and putting Marines and all their equipment in and out of ship. Uh, all of those things which I had never done before.

Yes.

So for me, it was a great learning experience, and I think that ultimately allowed me to settle in and, and be more comfortable with what I was doing. I never was comfortable in any day I was in command because again, there's so much going on that you have to stay on your toes. But I relied on the crew. I had phenomenal crew. I mean, I say this today and I keep up with all of them, you know, via Facebook and LinkedIn and they're all promoting and doing great things. But, you know, I jokingly tell— and it's not a joke, it's the truth— I tell all of my folks, you know, my best tour that I had in the Navy was as a CO of Iwo Jima as an aviator. And most aviators are shocked when you say that, but it was the truth. Uh, and so, you know, it was, it was so much, uh, and I say fun and the surface guys don't like that term, but I loved it because it was great responsibility and the crew responded and we did great things. And again, like I said, we didn't have any mishaps and it was a really, really great deployment, 8-month deployment.

Outstanding. I remember I was deployed on the LHD-2 USS Essex.

So yes, I had a couple of friends, a couple of friends who've had command of that great ship as well.

I was looking for my command cap. I have it here somewhere, but I can't, I can't, I can't find it. But yeah, amphibious warfare, there's really nothing like it.

No.

So, so you've led over 3,000 sailors, 3,250 sailors, and Marines. Let's not forget our Marines.

Absolutely.

They always need a ride from the Navy for some reason. But you are also over a budget of over $320 million, operating the budget. What was kind of a difference between managing and commanding? What did you learn?

Well, I mean, I think when you use the term managing, you know, it's— you're talking about doing, you know, working with people to do a specific thing or manage a specific task, whereas commanding or leading in charge of people and things, in some instances you have to convince people to do things they don't want to do. I mean, there's sometimes in management people can get away with if somebody says they don't want to do it, well, I guess they fire them, but you know, you can get somebody else to do it. But in the military, people may say they don't want to do it, but ultimately the mission has to get done. As I mentioned before, you're talking about, you know, orders for me and in the case of EWOF directly from the president or the Joint Chiefs or, you know, Fifth Fleet where we were at the time. So You know, you have to convince people to do things, you know, especially from a deployment and a time and standpoint. I mean, we had, I would say we had the most arduous workup. Everybody's going to say that, oh my goodness, it was so tough for us when we started. But you know, when I got to EWO, we were in dry dock. We went from dry dock to, to, to, you know, all of the workups for the ship and getting the ship underway. We had an in-service inspection, which is a huge, you know, inspection that, that ships only get it, you know, every so often to make sure the ship's at minimum standards for workups, all those things, uh, with the Marines. And then we did a homeport shift from, from, uh, Norfolk down to Jacksonville. And then we did an 8-month deployment and I came back as a CO. We also did a pier-side availability. I got a full spectrum in 3 years as a SPO that most SPOs, some of them don't get ever. Yes, I got a chance to do that. So, you know, and I appreciate it. Like I said, I enjoyed it. It was a great challenge for me. But it's one of those things where, you know, you learn to appreciate what's going on and the people that you work, you know, work with and work for you.

Wow, that is really wonderful. Let's talk a little bit about leading through complexity and crisis, because during the Yemen evacuation and several European crisis responses you've done, How did you make calm decisions when everything was urgent and chaos all around you?

Yeah, the Yemen evacuation, it was so interesting because we're sitting off the coast and we had been preparing for that because things were going south, you know, a lot over there. And we were just— we sat there, you know, in the military they have this thing called beer days and we ended up doing two of them. So, and that's when you don't pull in for like 90+ days. So we got two of those. So we were underway for consecutive 90-day periods waiting. Wanted something to happen and ultimately it did. We ended up doing the evacuation and supporting it. It was a peaceful evacuation, thank goodness, but we were able to support that and the, you know, everything went well. I just remember being on the bridge when we launched the aircraft in support of it and telling one of the brand new officer of the decks, you know, I told her, I said, you know, depending on how this thing goes, this may be something you remember in the annals of history as you grow up and tell your kids later on in life that you were a part of this. Fortunately, everything went well. Wow. But, you know, in that and in any other crisis, you know, the hurricane things that we did after I, you know, left Iwo and was here in Jacksonville supporting 5 hurricanes in 2 years. Wow. The, you know, and evacuating bases and the people and everyone around here in the southeastern area. Ultimately, you rely on your people. I mean, again, everything, everything in leadership and what you do is how you you relate and you work with the people and how they interact and work with you. You know, listen to the subject matter experts on those things because again, in my world, you know, as an aviator, you know, I'm relying on the folks that are managing the flight deck, the launching Harriers and the Ospreys and the other things that we had out there. You know, we have the other ships and things, you know, boats on the bottom of the ship that we're working off of. So I'm relying on my subject matter experts to, to do their job. Uh, and, and trusting that they will do that and prioritizing things and delegating. But I think the biggest thing is to stay out of the weeds. If you're in charge, you gotta stay out of the weeds. A lot of people will get, go down a rabbit hole and get into something, and all of a sudden the big picture of what's supposed to happen bypasses them. And once that happens, if you aren't quick enough to get it back, you'll never get it back. So that's what I was, I was always cognizant of being able to do that.

Wow, that is powerful. For those who are listening right now, definitely this is worth your time on this podcast, if only to know the difference, because I believe some people, sometimes even in the military, they have a lot of trouble delegating. Because I'm, for example, I'm an information warfare officer. As a junior officer, ensign, JG, even lieutenant, I am very tactical, hands-on, I am the expert in what I do. So when I became a lieutenant commander, I had to kind of switch over to becoming more of a leader, right? Not just leading people in my own designator, but from the information warfare designator across the board, like intel officers and CREEPs and space guys and all of that. So it was quite a transition. And for those who are listening right now, what would you advise them they do to learn how to properly delegate and not be, you know, trying to do everything themselves, but really trusting their people and the and the team, or at least giving them space to learn, make mistake if they have to, but get better at their job and not doing it for them.

I think that that's it in a nutshell. It's a combination of trust. So, you know, for me, it's learning, you know, who you work with and who works for you and trusting them and trusting what they do. And then also giving them the opportunity to do their job. You know, I used to always enjoy the fact that, you know, the folks who work for me, when they left, or when I left, it's like, hey sir, thank you for giving me the opportunity to do my job. Because, you know, I feel like that's their job and that's what they're supposed to do, and I want to make sure that they do it. I'll hold them accountable for it. But, um, that's probably the biggest thing as a leader, is making sure that your people, uh, that your people can do their job, because that's what they're there for. That's what they want to do. And I think they get more of an appreciation out of that because they're able to do their job. So when you're a leader, a young leader, or even on, you know, someone more senior, um, you have to build that trust though. That's the thing. And a lot of that comes with relationships and conversations. And if you can have conversations, professional or personal conversations with people, you get to learn people, you get to understand them. Um, you know, I always used to say the old term, you, you figure out what makes people tick. So you kind of understand You know, you can tell when somebody's having a bad day. And a lot of times that's important because if you're doing something and something, it's a hot situation and you know this person's having a bad day, you kind of know when you got to step in and you got to say something or do something. But you got to know your people. That's really the bottom line.

That is really powerful. So I would appreciate that you had the opportunity to flip up from the XO to the CEO. So I guess as a brand new XO, brand new command, how do you build trust fast in ICE-Tech's environment?

I would say, I used to always tell my department, it's because I learned, I didn't learn this, but I watched this happen. You can't roll up in somewhere thinking you know everything just because you're the guy that's maybe senior to somebody. And when you do that and you roll in there, if you're, you're starting to tell somebody, well, based on your previous experience, well, well, this is, you know, this probably isn't right. We need to do it a different way or something like that. You just told that person they don't know what they're doing. And that person, that may be their process or how they're doing their job. So now you've insulted them, quite frankly, and I've watched that happen a lot. So my golden rule was when I used to tell my department heads is, hey, you're gonna go in this department, don't roll in there telling people what to do. You need to learn the process. Now there may be a different way to do it and you may find a better way to do it, but you gotta work with them and figure out how to get to that sweet spot, you know, because you gotta get buy-in and that's really it. You gotta get buy-in Again, as the XO, when I got to EWO, we were in dry dock in Norfolk and the ship was—

Just a moment, sir. Sorry, sir, we lost you there for just a second. You were saying as an XO in dry dock?

Yes, as XO, when I was on EWO, You know, we were in dry dock in Norfolk, and so I could literally walk in and touch the bottom of the ship. It was crazy. So, you know, and I'd never seen that before. I'd seen it, but not experienced it. And so I walk in and it's the middle of June, July, and the ship's there and been there about 6 months. And I'm like, what have I got myself into? Wow. But, but, you know, you get in there and, you know, you have to figure out what's happening. I had to catch up because they're not going to wait on me. So I had to catch up with what's happening and what they're doing. But it was an experience, but I was able to rely on the team that was there, listen, you know, learn. You know, I call it, you know, the old phrase MBWA, management by walking around. I walked around, I asked a lot of questions, I met people, learned faces, names, and places. And ultimately, because they realized that I was interested and wanted to learn, those same young sailors, young and old sailors, taught me. And the same thing happened in, in the squadron, you know, the chiefs and the junior sailors, the folks that taught me the ins and outs of the aircraft, the same thing happened on the ship. And so that became a mutual respect because they knew that I cared about what was happening with us and ultimately wanted us to be successful.

Man, that's really leading with humility. It's powerful. But in these high-stakes environments, sir, What framework did you use to prioritize when everything seems to be mission critical?

I mean, again, it goes back to just the basics. You go back to the basics. What are the standards? What are the rules? You know, because when things, things may not go as planned, but you have to have a plan, right? That no matter what is said, you have to start with the baby. Don't start with a plan, you're already in trouble, right? So You start with a plan. Here's where we're going. You're going to probably deviate at some point from that plan. But as you step through it, and that's where your leadership and experience and relying on others comes into play as well, because, you know, other people may have seen experiences or things like that. You have to be willing and humble enough to listen to them and say, "Yeah, sir, I've seen this. I don't know about that." And talk through it. Talk it through if you have time to talk it through. But it's, uh, crisis situations happen. Uh, I think the ones that get resolved, uh, get resolved because people in charge listen and they take in inputs. The ones that sometimes don't go so well is because they think they know every damn thing and, and they end up in trouble.

Wow, great, great, great wisdom. Let's talk about, uh, both of your books. So you are a serial best-selling author. So let's take TIMMS first. And I really love this because you use it as an acronym, TIMMS, for training, education, and mentorship. Why did you think this book needed to be written?

So, you know, when, again, just as I took over the ship, you know, I'm transiting, my command master chief has Lincoln on Leadership, and he asked me, sir, have you read this book? And I was like, master chief, I said, I'm a pilot and an engineer. I said, there's two things I do not, I do not like reading. I said, as an engineer and as a pilot, I don't like reading books. I said, I read books, but I'm not going to read a book like that on leadership. I mean, you know, not trying to be arrogant or anything, but I'm like, I don't need anybody else to tell me how to do leadership when I got to kind of work with you guys and do what I got to do. You know, I wasn't going to do that. But I read the book. I read a couple of chapters. And as I read them, I was like, yeah, I kind of do that. And that's kind of good. That's pretty good. But as I read the first couple of chapters, I'm already doing most of this stuff. But the problem with me— Which book was it?

What was that, sir?

Lincoln on Leadership.

Oh, Lincoln.

Yes. Yes. Yeah. But the problem with me was the book was like this, this big, and I don't have time as a CEO to read a book this big. Yes. And I'm like, it's just too much. And it didn't really, in my opinion, it, it said a lot and it told a lot.

Mm-hmm.

But I'm like, well, what's— there's points to it, but you gotta get, get to the point.

Yes.

So, and, and, and so as I, as I set out to write the two books that I wrote, I wanted them to be very succinct and to the point of of, hey, here's an experience that I had, here's a way that you can learn from these experiences.

Yes.

And take it from there. And so each chapter in both books, none of the pages are more than— none of the chapters are more than 5 or 6 pages.

Yes.

Because it's a topic, it's an experience, it's something that I've learned or someone else has learned, and you take it, take it for what it's worth. But I didn't need to read 40 or 80 pages to tell me something.

I don't need that. Yes.

Because I'm an engineer, I like pictures.

Straight to the point, you know.

Yeah, I like pitches. I don't want to deal with all the other stuff.

Well, so this is really good because again, I, I love the acronym you have used. So it's training, education, and mentorship. What is the difference there?

So, you know, when you start talking about the three, and I, and I, you know, in both books I had a purpose, again, like I mentioned earlier, for what I wanted to do. I wanted to Pass forward the lessons learned that I had gotten out of the 29 years that I was in the Navy to, you know, move it forward. I had one of my— the book came about because one of my former employees when I was at the region, you know, challenged me to put my lessons learned on paper as he's listening to me, you know, mentor folks in my office every day. And I told him that same thing. I said, you know, Robert, I'm a— I'm a pilot and engineer. I don't like to read and I don't like to write and I like pictures. I'm not doing all this stuff. But ultimately I did. And so, you know, I put the words down on paper. But, you know, so I ended up with the acronym between the two books. So, so training, you know, from my perspective, training is, you know, you kind of teaching, you know, someone, someone, you know, something that they don't know, right?

Yes.

You know, if you're talking about education, then you're sharing your stories or your kind of experiences on things. So you're training someone in something they don't know. But as an educator, you know, I call myself a third generation educator. My grandmother, my mother, and my sister, all educators and teachers. You're teaching people something that you have experienced in life or something that they need to get to. And then the mentorship part is guiding people through their journey, their specific journey, because everybody's journey is different. But you use that based on your previous experiences in education and training. So it's kind of all tied together with those three. And so that was the first book. And that's the one I launched. And I kind of did that and held off to, to the other things.

Wow.

So what is the difference between mentorship and supervising? Because I think a lot of new leaders confuse the two.

Yeah. So again, the mentoring piece is—

we—

you're talking about the total person thing. You know, you have to be willing to, uh, to dive in and learn about the person, the family, their history, their goals, where they're trying to get to, um, you know, to help them get to that point. Now, I always, you know, used to tell people mentoring is great, but it's got to work both ways. So the person that's being mentored also has to be— want— has to be willing to be mentored. And so You know, if that comes about, it's always usually very successful for that individual when that happens. But the difference, in my opinion, between mentoring and supervising is, you know, supervisors are going to say, "Go do your job." They may not have a vested interest in your success. They probably do because your success is probably part of their success. But at the same time, they may not have as much of a vested interest in in, uh, and I wouldn't even say they're your career because they probably do to some extent, but the mentoring piece takes into account all of those things, um, yes, in terms of helping you out individually.

Wow, insightful. And one of your most famous quotes here is, no, you talk a lot about giving the group what it needs but not what you want to give. Can you unpack that for, for us?

Sure, yeah, that, that's more of a selflessness type quote. That's one of the quotes from Carla Lawson, who's the basketball coach at Duke University, women's basketball coach. And she has some great quotes, by the way. But she, you know, and I use that quote as one in the book and in the chapter to talk about being a selfless leader. And, you know, you as a leader need to ensure that what it is that you're giving is for the benefit of the team. You know, you can say, hey, we, we want to do well and we want to do this and we want to do that. But if you aren't willing to give of yourself to make sure the individuals are successful for the team, then you're not going to probably be successful. You know, I used to always, you know, I was, from my, my perspective, I would always ask my sailors for goals, personal and professional goals. And those personal professional goals were things that they wanted to do, but also things that eventually would help the ship do better because they got smarter, they were better in what they were doing. And so what I would always say is when they won, we won. And the ship did phenomenal things because each Sailor and Marine got better at their personal, their professional lives, some of the personal lives, you know, in terms of working out and mental health and all those things. All those things were a part of that package, that complete package. And so when you tie all those things together, we as a team were successful because of that.

That is really powerful. So one more question about your book, Tim, for the junior officers who are listening right now. And I'm not like I did a long, long time ago, they start to kind of transition to becoming a new leader. What would you advise them to do it? What are 3 things they should think about doing if they wanted to have a high-performing team? How do you build that?

Oh, let's see. Um, hire the person and not the skill. That's one that I would use. It's a chapter in the book. What that means there is, you know, you need to hire somebody that you can work with, that can work within the team, has a personality to drive the meeting. They may be the smartest person in the world with no personality. Them.

A lot of those.

Yes.

But that person's not gonna help your team a lot. They're gonna come up with some ideas, but if they can't work and interact with the team, they're, they're no use to you.

Yes.

So I always say hire the person and not the skill. The, the, you know, in engineering at, when I was at Fanatics and, and even on the ship, everybody comes in with the same basic qualifications. You know, if you're an officer, you got commission. If you're a pilot, you got wings and you did that. And engineers, when I was interviewing engineers, everybody's resume, they're all degreed engineers. Yeah, but now I got to figure out who and what's going to work well with my team and work with me. Um, cultural fit. The second one, yeah, absolutely. The second one would be, uh, some level of diversity and background and expertise, because if you're hiring the same people and you're comfortable with that person and they are thinking like you, you're not getting anything done because you're not gonna be a high-performing team because you're gonna hit a limit and a ceiling. So people with different backgrounds, people with different perspectives bring all those things into the team and help the team to think differently. And it happened to me all the time. You know, I was even on the bridge. I've got, you know, junior sailors. We're talking about things and they just make a recommendation. It's like, wow, never thought of that. But yeah, let's try. And so it all— it happens all the time and people discount that. So think about the people. So hire the person, not the skill. Diverse backgrounds. And then the last one is they got to be good communicators. They got to be able to talk and listen.

Yes.

Because if they can't do both, then you're not going to get your message across. And when I was at Fanatics, that was the biggest thing for me. My engineers had to be able to be good communicators working with the GMs and the folks that were there. And the same thing in the military environment.

Yes.

If you can't communicate your message, get your point across, then you may have great ideas, but it's not gonna happen if you can't talk about, talk them through.

Wow.

This, this is great for the transition. So we talked about, um, building high-performing team in your book Team, and now let's switch over to Lead. How do you develop leaders, right? Going from team building to actually leading, empowering, and developing, which I think is probably one of the most important thing, um, for a leader. Part of the reason why I do this podcast, because my primary mentor, Dr. Maxwell, says, right, there is no success without succession. It's not just one thing for you to be a leader and to achieve good things. That's wonderful. But what about the people who are following behind you? Right? So that's why I think this book is so critical.

Why did you feel like there was a need for you to write yet another book about leadership, especially the developing So, so I think that I would say the, the, the leadership, the, the, the team piece was more individual personal growth, learning about yourself and how to make yourself better. And then the lead, the writing lead, my focus there was more on individuals and how to improve their leadership skills, you know, leading, how to learn how to lead, how to empower your people, and then how to develop other leaders. And I think that that's where my, my, my head was with that. And again, as I mentioned before there, I just didn't feel like there was a, a, a gap, a filler, a gap of some sort there that helped people to get to that point. Cause again, everybody just talks about, hey, he'd be a great leader. Here's some of the things, but they never talk about realistically how to do that.

Yes.

And so I always felt like I wanted to, to give that just from some of my examples and those things.

Okay, Captain, we have our first question from our live audience. Daniel Leong.

Sure.

A very active member of our tribe. He says, okay, come Commander Gordon, actually it's not Commander, it's Captain. I am a commander, he's a captain. Captain Gordon, you mentioned the mentor has a vested interest in the total person. In a high-pressure environment, how do you keep that mentorship from becoming a crutch so the mentee still learns to build their own infrastructure? And then he says, how do you balance support with self-reliance? Interesting question.

Becoming a crutch. So, I mean, I don't know that there's a crutch per se when you say that in terms of pressure. I'm just trying to read the question. How do you keep the mentorship from becoming a crutch?

You know, I think what he's referring to, sir, is for the mentee to always rely on the mentor. Well, sir, did I do it right? Instead of just relying on the training and have self-confidence.

Well, I mean, that's not necessarily mentor-mentee. That sounds like that's more of a supervisor relationship. Yes. But again, you know, because from my perspective, and I I will, and I'll share this and then I'll answer the question. I, I work directly with one of my mentors, but the other mentor I, I never worked for. Uh, and so, uh, you can learn in both cases. One of my mentors I deployed with for almost a year and a half in different time frames, and, uh, and I continued to learn from that person, you know. Um, but there comes a time, like as I mentioned earlier, the mentee has to want to learn. Yes. You know, if you're, if you're not evolving and not improving, the mentee and a good mentor, I should say, a good mentor will tell you that.

Mm-hmm.

The mentor is gonna tell you if you're doing good and they're also gonna tell you if you're doing bad. If they don't tell you you're doing bad, there's not a good mentor. That's a cheerleader.

Yes.

Yes.

Okay.

So the person needs to tell you when you're screwing up and if that person is allowing you to not do well and not giving you guidance, direction, additional training or whatever. Then they're not a good mentor. They're— I don't want to use the term supervisor, but they're just not helping. Let's just say that.

Huh.

What, what would you say, sir, is the difference between a mentor and a coach?

Um, very close, you know, again, very close in terms of what they do. I think, uh, in some instances the coaches aren't as involved with the total person as a mentor is, you know, from a coaching standpoint, coach is going to guide you in a specific area and get you going to do that. And then they may step away and that's all they do. Mentors are going to involve themselves in your personal lives in terms of you and your family and what's best vested interest in getting you to the next step. Coach may not do that. You know, and I'm not saying, you know, I don't— you know, you can look the definitions up, but I would say a coach is probably going to be the person that is for a specific skill, a specific skill set that you're trying to accomplish or get done, as opposed to the mentor that's trying to work the total person and get you beyond, you know, a certain aspect of what you're doing.

And, uh, in your book again on leadership, we talk about empowerment. What does that actually mean practice, right? Because I've seen a lot of leaders that says, yeah, I empower my people, but in reality they really are not. What does that entail?

Involvement. It's involving people at every level, you know, and I've mentioned this several times. It's, you know, if I am the captain of the ship and I have sailors and, you know, junior, you know, junior Marines that are part of my ship and they're not a part of making us successful, then I fail to empower them to do something. Something. So, you know, I used to, used to always talk about the importance when I did check-ins. This is, this is an empowerment thing. When I did check-ins with my sailors, I told them how important it was to keep the ship clean.

And here's why.

Because if the ship— and, and everybody that comes on the ship complains about having to keep the ship clean. But then I explain, here's why it's important. Because if you're wiping down the handrails and you're wiping down the walls and you're mopping the floors, you're doing all these things that have to be done, The ship is a sanitary environment, and as we continue to evolve and that doesn't happen, people get sick. When people get sick, watches get missed. When watches get missed, people get tired. When people get tired, things break or don't get fixed. And when things break or don't get fixed, we have mishaps. That's the chain that we try to avoid. So that person who checks on board, brand new person Now they realize, oh, I'm empowered and I need to make sure that I'm doing a great job, whatever my job happens to be. If it's cleaning the space, because somebody may walk by that space and touch that wall or that ladder or whatever it happens to be, that bulkhead, and get sick because they didn't clean it. Now we've got people doing extra work. So everyone is empowered to do their job. That's what empowerment— why it's important.

Wow. And one more idea from your book, sir. You talk about leadership being multiplication. And I believe that is, that is true. So how would someone multiply themselves correctly?

Um, from mentorship, from being a, being a mentor. I mean, that from my perspective, uh, I felt like I was, you know, multiplied because of the great mentors that I have, and I was able to do that and pass that on to others and have mentored, you know, thousands of people along the way, whether it's through supporting them in promotions or commissionings or whatever it happens to be. All of those things are, you know, ways that you can multiply yourself and continue to push forward successful people.

Powerful. Okay, so for the— we have only about 10 minutes left, so let me get to the last segment of podcast. I could be talking to you, sir, for probably 2 or 3 more hours. There is so much to talk about.

This is fine. This is good stuff though. It's just fine.

Yeah, we, we barely, barely scratched the surface. And thank you again, sir, for writing those 2 books. I hope you are working now on your 3rd bestselling book. This is so important, especially for legacy, right? Because one of my dearest mentors, General Powell, is no longer with us, but I have his 2 books. I read them over and over and over again. So even though he's no longer here, He is still speaking to us and still mentoring us long after he's gone. That is legacy. And, uh, that's another reason why I'm forcing myself to, uh, to write my next book. But, but having, having said, uh, what do you believe is the greatest lesson you have ever learned in life, in leadership, just in general?

You know, it's, it's interesting because I learned it early. I learned it, you know, going to college. I learned that lesson early on. And I talk about it. I actually talk about it. It's one of the chapters in the book. It's Patience Without Procrastination. And it's kind of a diverging type thing, right? So my dad and the folks that grew up with me or know my family, my dad's a very quiet guy, very patient guy, and, you know, very humble guy. Did remarkable things in his lifetime. Hall of Fame member at Morgan State University for football and track and all other things. But, um, oh, very patient person.

But we're still talking about all of them. It looks like champions run in your family. Who is this one?

That her birthday is today, as a matter of fact. So happy birthday to my baby. That's my daughter Reese. Yes, her birthday is actually today. She actually is turning that number on her jersey, number 20.

I believe she was much younger here.

And oh my Lord have mercy, she's watching this, she's watching this. Yeah, she, uh, yeah, so she's at Georgia State graduating in May, uh, and, and we'll go get her MBA. But yeah, happy birthday to her. I'm glad you showed that. Happy birthday to her.

That is a legacy, sir, from the granddaddy to the granddaughter.

Absolutely, absolutely. But, uh, and my other daughter plays soccer as well, so, you know, we've got a lot of great, you know, history there. But the patience without procrastination, uh, piece came— the procrastination piece came from my mom. You know. And before I left to go to college, she mentioned to me, she said, whatever you do, do not procrastinate in things that you're doing. Don't put things off, get things done. And so I learned to balance that. And when I say that lesson that I learned from that is, hmm, at some point in time— you still there?

Yes, sir, I can hear you, but I cannot see you. Uh, at some point in time, we were saying—

you got me?

I can hear you, but I, I don't see you, sir. Can you double-check your camera? Maybe turn off the, um, the video at the bottom left and turn it back on.

I, I can't understand what you're saying.

Oh, on— there is a camera button I believe it's the bottom left of your screen. If you disable the camera and then turn it back on, maybe that will fix it.

Something about, you said background, your voice is scrambled, so I'm missing what you're saying.

Okay, let me try one thing. So I'm gonna get you off and I'm gonna ask you to come back. All right, just one second. This is so good. I guess that's one of the risks you run when you do everything live, But, uh, let's have the, uh, Captain back. Wow, this is so powerful. Patience without procrastination. Uh, should be back in just a moment. Man, I love doing these podcasts live. Let me see if we— while we are waiting on Captain Gordon to come back, I believe what he's saying about patience without procrastination is so so powerful. In life, you do have to be patient, and I think good things happen to those who are patient. But at the same time, you do not want to procrastinate. Whatever you can do today, you absolutely have to do it. If you have the ability to do it, you have the opportunity to do so, you have to get busy and you have to get it done. Do it for yourself. I like the philosophy of getting 1% better every single Let me see, he's not coming back yet. Let me see if I can give Captain a quick call. This was so good. Here we go. He is back now. Oh, actually, I don't know what happened, but I can see you and I can hear you just fine now.

Yeah, sorry.

Thank you. I got you. I am going to edit this before we put it on all of the podcasts. But yeah, we're talking about patients without procrastination. We're talking about the procrastination problem.

When I left to go to college, college, my mom said, don't procrastinate.

And I took that to heart, you know, as I went to college. And from that point forward, I had to figure out, you know, you got to be patient in some instances and do things, but at some point you got to make a decision and you got to do something happen. And, and I was able to do that, uh, you know, throughout my career in college and in the military. But there's a fine line there, and that, that's probably the greatest lesson in everything that I've done because a lot of folks, a lot of times when I'm working with folks, they're doing things and I'm like, okay, we got to get going here.

That's the patience.

Got to get going. But procrastination parts, you got to kind of let them do their thing.

So it's— That is very, very powerful. And for everybody listening right now live, I'm telling you, this is worth the price of admission. If you don't get anything else from this podcast, us, this could literally potentially change your life. So what do you believe, sir, is the secret to your success? You became an engineer, a pilot, a commander at sea. That is huge. I've been a commanding officer, but shore duty and sea duty, two completely different animals. And now you are retired, you're starting your own successful consulting firm. But why do you believe you've been so successful in life, sir?

I mean, I think accepting the challenges, again, it's So I grew up with a family of, of— I don't say overachievers, they're just achievers. They just did their thing, and the size of the family, and great role models, sisters, you know, parents, and all my other family members. Um, but because of that, it was expected that I was going to do well. And that level of expectation, I think, is probably the biggest thing.

Yes.

And accepting those challenges, uh, the same thing that we pushed our girls— my wife and I pushed our girls, you know, she has the same mentality in the family that she grew up with as well.

Yeah.

Accepting those challenges, working hard, and then excelling at them. Um, from my perspective and for me, I gotta enjoy what I'm doing. I think that's the secret to success. You know, I love doing things. Uh, I've come to learn to love writing, even though I'm an engineer, a guy that doesn't like to write and read all the time.

Yes.

But I love, I, I've learned to love writing. Because I feel like I can pass something meaningful on to people. But I gotta enjoy what I'm doing. That's probably—

enjoy what you are doing. That is powerful. So what are you learning this, this, this day, sir? I know leaders are learners. What are you learning?

You know, I think Again, because I retired, retired from, from the military and then from FINAGS a couple of years ago. I'm doing this consulting thing now, but from my perspective, I think it's just learning how to take care of me and myself and then pass that to my family. Uh, you know, 40 straight years of college through the military and then at FINAGS, uh, and then, you know, stopping, uh, takes a toll on your body and your mind and those types of things. So, um, I didn't have a ton of hobbies, you know, didn't have a lot of time for hobbies, you know, once my body gave out from playing basketball and all the other things that most people do. And I didn't get into golf as much as I probably should. Well, um, but, uh, so I'm learning how to take care of myself is probably the biggest thing for me—

diet, exercise.

And, uh, you know, I'm gonna try to do the golf thing, but, but I think that's for me is what I'm learning, is just to take care of myself and then pass that and we take care of each other.

Very good. And let me ask you, sir, uh, who is the GOAT? You mentioned basketball, uh, LeBron James or Michael Jordan? Who's the GOAT?

Why would you even ask? There it is, right?

Yeah, I knew it, I knew it.

I mean, all the people all jump on stats, and longevity is a good thing, doesn't make you the go. And longevity is the only reason why LeBron— there's no other reason. There's— there—

yeah, yeah. Sometimes I have to argue with my Gen Z daughter who doesn't know anything but thinks she does know every— everything. But anyway, uh, always, always fun. And you've also talked about transition, sir. What is maybe one advice you would give to people listening right now who gonna be transitioning from active duty military to civilian life?

Um, you know, you gotta immerse yourself into whatever it is that you're going to do. Yeah, I have a lot of conversations with folks that are transitioning, uh, out of the country, uh, and, and it's, it's, it's daunting, it's different, uh, and so for them it's something that— because I had the same apprehension when I, when I was leaving, um, but, you know, and, and most people I think the average— most people don't stay in their first job, you know, after military, more than 2 years or so. Um, I was fortunate enough with Fanatics to be there for 5 years with a great team that I work with and work for. But, you know, I think it's just learning how to adapt. There's different leadership styles, you know, they're certainly not a military environment, and you have to understand that going in. And, and a lot of, you know, in the civilian world, a lot of people don't understand how how military works and the person that they're getting, they always have this— this is what this person is going to be like. So I try not to be that kind of person. Yes, I was fairly senior when I did leave, but at the same time, it's— I think it's learning how to adapt, and you got to be adaptable and adjustable and, and absolutely yourself and step back.

Oh no, not again. Uh, let's see. Okay, this wasn't too bad. All right, thank you so much for sharing that. If I could ask you, if you could choose 3 people, right, to have dinner with, they could be alive, dead, or even fictitious character, who would you choose and why?

Oh man, you know, So that's a great question. So I'll start with Muhammad Ali.

Yeah.

So Muhammad Ali to me is probably one of the greatest Americans that, you know, worldwide. That guy, I mean, I got a chance to meet him when I was a kid, you know, in 4th, 5th grade. He had just won championship. That kind of tells my age, but he just— but just a worldwide ambassador and so many different different things that he brought to the world, quite frankly, when people's eyes do different things. Um, Barack Obama will be another one, uh, not on the same level as Muhammad Ali, but more recently, uh, and I actually got a chance to meet him in person as well as take orders from him when I was—

he actually called, pretty cool, he called Christmas Day and talked to one of my sailors on the Wow, that's nice.

Speak with him there.

This is pretty cool.

But, uh, you know, so a lot of different things that, um, you know, that he has done, you know, first, and, and a lot of great conversations and insight from both of them. I think, you know, I would love to have a conversation with the two of them. And the third one is a different one, is Benjamin Franklin. Benjamin, if you look at the history of what Benjamin Franklin did in his life, and we did a tour in Philadelphia, my family and I were up in Philadelphia or in Boston, but you know, Benjamin Franklin and all the things that he did. Yeah, probably they talk about the father of our country. Yes, Franklin probably has done more for this country early on than hardly anybody else in all the different You look up all the achievements that he did, most of the other folks pale.

True. Wow, that is so powerful. And which book would you recommend outside of your own books that my audience reads?

So this is, this is one that, this is one that I picked up, I think I was in high school.

Uh, yeah, I think it was in high school, maybe it was high school or college.

All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten. Yes, very basic. So, and what that book is, it's kind of the way I wrote my books.

It's about—

I loved it so much. It was, it was, it was written in '86.

I was in college.

But, um, it talks about just that, all the things in life that you need to know you actually learned in kindergarten. How to be nice, how to wash your hands, How to, you know, be, you know, take naps, you know, eat cookies, be friends, say please and thank you. All of those things that the world probably should have more of.

Mm-hmm.

That's the book.

And that was a book that I kind of laughed and joked about, but I kind of lived my life through that book.

And I used to give that book to my officers when they were leaving the squadron., as a gift, as a farewell gift, to make sure that seriously. But yeah, that, that's the book that, that I have read and I kind of mold on.

Powerful. Yeah, that book was recommended on the podcast last year. Very, very powerful. We're going to make sure it's added to the digital library I have. Is there maybe, sir, a song or a movie or a book that will be like your life's theme?

Or, um, uh, yeah, um, it's a funny one too. Happy by Pharrell.

Yes, I like that one.

So if you, if you listen to the lyrics and, and what's in that song, and I actually had it played when I, when I retired, when my wife and I walked through the, the pipe and the shore, the band played Happy, uh, at the end of my retirement ceremony.

Funny.

Uh, but that song kind of encapsulates, you know, who I am as a person. Uh, you know, I always joke with people, you know, as long as I'm smiling, we're good. But if you don't see me smiling, it's probably— so, uh, so happy is who I am. And people may think, oh, full of BS, but that— if you know me, that's who I am. But if you listen to the words of that song and some of the things that are in there, it's a motivating song. Yes, kind of who I am.

Powerful. And why should people read this book here?

Again, you know, I say what I say. There's a lot of great stuff in that book, uh, but mine is more condensed.

Yes, beautiful. All right, we are coming, uh, toward the end of the show, sir. So, uh, what can we do to value back to you?

So, you know, what I've decided to do with what I call phase 3 of my career in life is, is become a consultant and a leadership, uh, developer and strat— you know, working strategy. So what, uh, I would appreciate, you know, folks— and I have clients, but, but, you know, me continuing to help people because that's where I am and where I am at this stage of my life and career is working to do things to help people, whether it's individuals uh, you know, strategic coaching to help them, you know, improve their lives and lifestyles. Or if it's, uh, teams, you know, I've dealt with a lot of teams in different sizes, uh, whether it's squadrons or ships or whatever, and industry. Um, but so that's what I'm doing now. I'm a consultant, and, uh, and that's what I'm doing. That's my web page there. But those are, you know, if folks want to help me out and you know some people that are, you know, looking for their, uh, process or helping them to, to get better and make their teams more efficient or more profitable, or, you know, that's what I'm here to do. More than happy to, uh, to talk with you. Go to my website, it's, uh, drgordonconsulting.com. Uh, Dr. is my initials, not doctor, but Dana Ricardo is my name, and so Dr. are the initials, although my college Dr. Gordon Consulting.

Well, thank you so much for sharing that, sir. I know we are out of time. Can you give me a couple more minutes before we— Absolutely. Thank you, sir. This is such a great, great conversation. If you had one and only one day to live, what would you have liked your final contribution to be?

Probably this gets back to what I think is the biggest thing in life— being able to make sure people can communicate effectively with each other. Because I think that in and of itself is the problem with most of what's happening in the world, is people— when I say communicate, not just talking, but effective communications, um, you know productive communications, not just talking to each other, but having conversations that are meaningful. And sharing, sharing what it is that they are trying to get done.

Yes.

If folks, you can always talk at somebody all day long and not have meaningful conversation. I think that's probably the biggest, if I could pass that along to us.

Wow. And if you did have a magic wand and could solve any problem in the world, what is the one problem problem you would like to solve first thing tomorrow morning?

First thing tomorrow morning?

That's a great question.

I don't, I don't know.

I mean, you know, when I go to bed and I wake up, the things in front of me are the most pertinent things, you know. I don't know. I mean, I've never been a, a sovereign world peace type person. That's not my mentality. I'm You know, I've always wanted to focus on what I can control. My mind has always been, I want to be able to, you know, focus and fix what I can control. I can't control the world because that communication thing I just talked about.

Yes.

Right.

So from my perspective, you know, whether it's a short-term goal, a long-term goal, a family goal, you know, and if I have clients, that's kind of where my head is in terms of when I wake up in the morning. Where are we getting those things solved? And what do I need to do to get, you know, clear the path for those things to be successful? But I'm not a solve world problem kind of guy.

I just know. No, that, that, that makes a lot of sense. And, uh, if you could have the ear of, uh, every junior officers in the Navy right now. For like 60 seconds, what would you tell them to do tomorrow morning?

Take care of your people.

Take care of your people.

Well, Lieutenant, kind of a cliché, but it's, it's always— it never fails. Yes, never fails. If you take care of your people, they will take care of you. People say that all the time. It sounds cliché, but it's true. I mean, if every place One of my buddies said, happy birthday, Reese. No matter where you have been in life, if you take care of your people, they will take care of you.

That is the best mentorship session I had before I became a commanding officer. My mentor told me, take care of the people, they will take care of your mission. Yeah, that is so true. Well, Nate is asking, how did sport help develop you as a leader and what was the impact it had on your life?

Well, that's a great question. I mean, you know, sports has been a part of my life, so it has two different things. And if we— if you'll indulge me, so the very first one, uh, taught me humility. You know, I— so as a sixth grader in Pop Warner football, I got cut from my team.

No.

And so what I learned there was consequences and repercussions. Either you're good, a lot of people don't learn that. But if you're good— but, but what it did for me is it gave me the drive and the desire to want to be successful, and I didn't want to feel it ever again. I made the team after that, and I played for the next 8 or 10 years before I got, got too small to play football. But I was okay with that. I mean, but because that kind of drove me to want to continue to be successful. And then in high school, you Great basketball team, uh, did great things my last 2 years, and we ended up losing the state championship my senior year. We were lower state champ, we lost the state championship, um, in Columbia. Um, disheartening for all of us. We had a great team and did some great things over the couple of years. Team was together from middle school through high school. Wow. And did a lot of great things. But from a leadership standpoint, what that taught me then was because, you know, as the point guard of the team, I need to do whatever it is to make sure my team is successful.

Yes.

That kind of set me into this motion of giving what the team needs and those types that we've talked about earlier. So that's where my head has always been. It's like drive because I don't want to fail.

Yes.

18-year-old, give what the team needs to be successful.

Now I'm glad you said 18-year-old, sir. I don't think you were 18-year-old, but this is the youngest picture I could find of you. I believe it's you and your parents up there.

That was commissioning, so that was, I was probably about 22 there.

Okay. Close, close, close enough. Yes. So the question I have for you, sir, if you could go back and give a piece of advice to that guy right there, 17, 20-year-old, uh, Dana, what would you say standing at the edge of this incredible career you've had in the most powerful Navy in the world?

World.

What would you say to 17-year-old Dana?

Um, don't be afraid to explore, ask questions, um, and, you know, be comfortable being uncomfortable. You have to, uh, a cliché type thing, people say it all the time, but you have to understand what that means. You know, it's, you know, there are going to be times when you're going to be uncomfortable with what you do. I, I had a I know a ton of them growing up throughout my career, but you have to be confident enough in yourself to say, this is what I want to do and this is where I want to get to. So you got to push, kind of push the envelope to make sure you can get yourself there.

Well, sir, that was phenomenal. Again, I could talk to you for another hour, but I know we are already like 15 minutes past the time. But if you have a couple more minutes, I want to end with a light round, right? Rapid fire I'm gonna ask a question, but I'm gonna need very, very quick answers. Don't take too long to think. Okay, let's do it. Uh, what is one word, one word that defines great leadership?

One word? Uh, integrity.

Okay. Morning routine or practice that keeps you grounded?

The what now?

Morning routine or practice that keeps you grounded?

Morning routine.

Oh, this is a lovely one. Uh, every morning when I get up and my body I lie down on the floor and I stretch for 20 minutes and I laugh because my dogs are looking at me like, or stretching, which is what I— yes, that morning routine is what I do.

All right, what is a book or a quote that changed your life?

Um, book or quote, um, I think that changed my life, I don't know, I would say the quote that I go by that I use the most is nothing, nothing changes.

Wow.

And then that, that is what I preach to my sailors, and that is what I believe. You know, if you want something to change or you want to make a difference, yes, you have to make a change.

It's not—

nothing's going to change if you're walking down the road and, and yes, you got to make it left or right or make a decision, but you got to make a change.

Wow, powerful. And who inspires you most today?

Who inspires me most today? My family, they continue. Girls, my wife continue to inspire me. I mean, they, they continue to do great things and continue to promote and, you know, things that they do. So that's the inspiration that, that I get. I mean, my parents were inspirations to me. They both passed away, but, but my, my family, my, my wife and my girls.

And, uh, what is the leadership habit you refuse to compromise on?

Um, integrity.

And, uh, what do you think is a question that every leader should ask themselves frequently?

Um, am I doing enough to take care of my team?

Always back to people. Okay, what did you want to be when you were a kid?

Oh, let's see, uh, what did I want to be? I had a couple of things.

Helicopter pilot?

No, no, no, not— well, depending on what kid, but, but no, initially, uh, you know, I wanted to be obviously a basketball player. That didn't happen because I said—

well, you played in high school, so that's—

I did, but I'm growing, you know, a 5-foot-9-inch or 5-foot-8-inch, 145-pound guard, although I could dunk a basketball. Uh, was just not there for me at the time. But yeah, it just didn't happen.

Okay, well, you played in high school. I, I didn't, so that's good. Congratulations. All right, 3 adjectives describing you as a child.

Inquisitive, uh, rambunctious.

Okay, one more.

And, uh, oh man, I don't know what the third one would be.

Um, it looks like you're a geek, maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, looks like one.

Yeah, now we're about the third one, but I mean, yeah, engineer.

Are you—

yeah, inquisitive engineer.

Yeah.

What about—

what about as an adult, sir?

Um, probably all the same. I mean, I'm still inquisitive I'm not quite as rambunctious because I'm being a little slower, but, you know, still want to learn and still trying to learn. But yeah, I think it's the same, those two. I would say energetic, but that maybe as a kid, but not right now.

I always like to answer with— oh, actually, before I do, is there a question, sir, I should have asked you I didn't get a chance to ask?

No, this has been fantastic.

Fantastic.

Go ahead. Fantastic. So let me ask you this one then, because I like to end on a very positive note. What is one thing you are feeling optimistic about these days?

One thing I'm feeling optimistic about. I will tell you that having watched the generations of folks grow up, and I got a chance to do that on EWO. I mean, we had, I had from 18-year-olds to 40-something-year-olds on the ship. So I watched multiple generations.

Wow.

And so the continued growth, education, and knowledge of folks as they continue to work their way through, you know, that my girls know, the things that their friends know and they're doing are far beyond, you know, things that I learned growing up. So I think that's more than anything inspirational for me to know that, that even with this AI stuff out there, that still learning and growing, and we still have that optimism.

Well, thank you. Thank you so much, Captain. And, uh, this is the very last one, I promise. One word that represents our shared experience on this podcast today.

One word?

Yes, sir.

Enjoyable. I loved it. This is a great— I really enjoy this, man. I mean, I really appreciate the invite, and I appreciate the opportunity.

Thank you so much. I'm always very, very grateful. So everyone, ladies and gentlemen, that was Captain Dana Gordon, U.S. Navy retired. Thank you, sir, for your service.

Appreciate it.

For really honoring us with your presence on this podcast.

Appreciate it so much. I appreciate the time.

Wow.

All right, uh, everyone, uh, I want to thank all of you for, uh, watching and those who've asked a question that the captain was able to answer live. And Daniel says, great session. So I do appreciate that. So this is it for today. Tomorrow I am going to have Captain Marcus Delaney from the US Coast Guard, and we're going to have a leadership discussion just like the one I had with Captain Gordon today. I hope you guys can join us. So until tomorrow, have a wonderful rest of your day. Thank you for watching again. Bye for now.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.