S5:E62🎙️ LIVE with Rear Admiral C. Kenneth Carodine, U.S. Navy (Ret.)

Hi, I'm John Maxwell. When the top companies in the world are looking for trainers, speakers, and coaches, there's one name that stands above the rest, and that's Maxwell Leadership. Our certified team members have gotten proven results for companies all over the globe, and our reputation, I'm proud to say, is second to none. Some of our members have risen to the top of their profession, including the one you're going to meet today. I proudly introduce you to my friend Bob Fabien Zinga.

Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ, where we help you lead with purpose and succeed with impact. If you're ready to grow into the kind of leader others want to follow, this podcast is for you. If you're determined to elevate your success and leave a lasting legacy, this podcast is for you. As my mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell, reminds us, everything rises and falls on leadership. Our goal is simple, to inspire you, challenge you, and equip you with insights that can transform the trajectory of your leadership journey. Welcome aboard to Welcome to another episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast with Coach Bisa.

A high-ranking Chinese defector reveals a chilling truth. Nuclear weapons technology has been secretly transferred to North Korea. In response, the President of the United States reopens the long-shuttered embassy in Taipei, pledging support for Taiwan's independence. A new Chinese leader rises, Western-educated, bold, and reform-minded, seeking peace He proposes a daring bargain: the oil-rich Spratly Islands in exchange for diplomatic recognition of Taiwan. But the old guard of Beijing, threatened by change, conspires with the military to preserve their grip on power. Amid rising tensions, Navy Reserve Captain Ben Maguire assumes his post as interim naval attaché. Together with the CIA station chief, he must uncover a web of espionage threatening to ignite a global conflict. Read General Quarters, the new novel by Ken Carradine. So, because this is such a big event for me, I spent a lot of time trying to get, you know, the message just right. I went to one of my classmates from Johnson and he was real helpful. He just said, "Dude, whatever you do, don't make us look bad." But the best advice came from my wife. And she said, "Honey, don't try to be intelligent, don't try to be witty, don't try to be philosophical, that's not who you are, just be yourself." So, here we go. And we're gonna— what I'm gonna do is give you 10 keys that you can use starting tonight to make the next 10, 20, even 30 years of your lives successful. Now, I will not be so bold as to guarantee you that if you do all 10 of these things that success will come your way, but what I will do is I will promise you that if you do none of them, it will be very, very hard for you to find that thing that you will basically look at someday and call success. And we're gonna do these David Letterman style. So number 10, make a plan. If you were leaving to go on a long car trip, you would at least look at a map before leaving. At least I hope you would. Are your lives any less important than a long car trip? In the Navy, we plan everything. We are in a very deadly serious business. I have a saying for you, and I'll have a few of them tonight. We plan the fight and we fight the plan. And when things start going a little awry, we go back to the plan, change it if necessary, and go on from there. We use plans to build cities, roads, and houses. We can also use them to build successful lives.

All right, uh, everyone, this is Coach Bizzy. Thank you so much for watching this episode of the Leadership and Success podcast. All right. We have greatness waiting for us in the green room right now. I am so overjoyed and really privileged to have Admiral Cowardine with us today. So like is our custom, please go ahead and let us know where you are joining us from, what city and what state. And also let us know what you are grateful for today. And of course, if you have a question for the Admiral, go ahead and type it in the comments and we will try to answer all of the questions while we are live on the air. Again, as is our custom, we want to spend just a moment to be grateful, right? We call this a moment of gratitude. And part of the reason we do this, as you guys know, is because in the military right now, it's about 22 service members who commit suicide every single day. And I would believe you cannot be suicidal and be grateful at the very same time. So as is our custom, maybe if you need to close your eyes, put yourself in your happy place, take a deep breath, slow down your nervous system and think about one thing you are grateful for right now. And I think today, we've been celebrating Black History Month, really Black History Year on this podcast. We're going to be doing that for the remaining of the year in 2026, but I am so grateful that I stand on the shoulder of giants, trailblazers, people who have gone before me. Actually, today in our celebration of Black History, we're going to be talking about the Golden Thirteen. These 13 sailors literally made it possible for somebody like me to become a senior officer in the most powerful Navy in the world today. So I am so, so grateful for those giants who came ahead of me and on whose shoulder I stand. All right, so I am going to try to go ahead and introduce our guest. And hello to Michelle Cassiota from Tampa, Florida. And Michelle, let us also know what you are grateful for. And whenever you have a question for our guest, type it in the comment as well. All right, uh, I think everybody should already know who our guest is, but no, Let, let me try to introduce him. So we're gonna be talking to Rear Admiral Ken Carroden. He has served our nation with distinction as a US Navy flag officer, leading in complex operational environment where strategic thinking, disciplined leadership, and mission clarity were essential. Following his naval career, he has continued contributing to leadership and technology conversation through his work in data governance and digital strategy. He's been helping organizations navigate the challenges of the information age. Admiral Carroden is also an accomplished author and geopolitical thriller, including Nuclear Dragon: General Qadhafi. I show you just a short trailer for that one. And then there is an upcoming book, Panther, should be coming this summer or this fall. So his books, they combine authentic military insight with compelling storytelling about global security, leadership under pressure, and the strategic reality shaping our world today. So ladies and gentlemen, without any further ado, please help me welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast, the one and only Admiral Can Kayodyne. Good morning, sir.

Good morning. Thank you for that very kind introduction, greatly appreciate it.

Well, sir, it's such a great, great honor and privilege to have you here. Maybe to get started, sir, uh, what is one thing you are grateful for today?

Um, the health of my family, uh, and most of my friends, and, uh, also I would say for myself. Uh, I think good health, good health is a blessing in itself because if you don't have it it limits your possibilities dramatically.

That is so true. And, uh, what is maybe something about you, sir, that most people may not know when they first meet you?

Ah, gosh, um, I like singing in the shower a lot.

Hopefully you are singing on KISSER. I, I, I—

it's in the shower, BZ. I don't have to worry about that.

That's true. Wow, that is, uh, quite something. You've had quite an outstanding, just incredible career. Maybe kind of going back to the beginning of your journey, I believe you came through the Naval Academy. Why did you join the Navy in the first place, sir?

So I'm from Huntsville, Alabama. I grew up in Alabama in the '60s and the '70s, and whatever you've read in history books, believe it was true. Um, I distinctly— I clearly remember my— one of my first days in high school, uh, going in to speak to, uh, uh, the guidance counselor. When, uh, she asked, you know, what my plans were, I told her I wanted to go to the Naval Academy and be a naval aviator. And she said, I think it's important that you get some people in your life who can help you create some realistic goals. Uh, I took that as something of a challenge, and, and I never forgot that conversation. Why the Navy? You know, I've been a student of history most of my life. I clearly remember in even in middle school reading stories about John Paul Jones, Howard Gilmore, who was an Alabamian. Who was awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions in World War II. The Navy just always held a very special place for me. I think ours is a very elegant, very traditional, an amazing organization. And it had a place in the early birth of our country, and it still has its place in the world today.

Wow, that is really powerful. I think part of the reason I joined, definitely 9/11, but also the uniform, the Navy uniform, there's just nothing like it.

Well, it is, it is, it is a very, very— yeah, it's, uh, and I miss wearing it. I do. I, I would say of the things that, uh, I, I miss since leaving the Navy is, is putting on the uniform, and every opportunity that I have to do that, I, I take advantage of it.

Yes, that is really great. I mean, just look at this. I mean, this is just classic. It is.

You need to stop. You need to stop, Bob.

It's incredible. But now, so it seems like, I would say for every leader, right? There are like defining moments early on in their careers that kind of define the type of leader they would become. What was one of those leadership lesson in the Navy that kind of still teach you and guide you today?

So my first, my first commanding officer, how can I put this, was a challenged individual. You know, no organization is perfect, and ours certainly is not perfect. But I was, and I was just not perfect. And this person was a challenged individual. He had some, some problems with people of color, and had some challenges around treating his officers and his enlisted personnel with what I believe to be an appropriate level of dignity and respect. I think I learned more about how not to do things as a leader than I did on how to do things as a leader. I think that experience seared in me something that I heard at the Naval Academy as a midshipman. There's an old saying that men mean more in the reading of a ship than its guns. Wow. And I've never forgotten that. And I think if there's one thing that anyone who's ever worked with me would tell you, that I absolutely demand is dignity and respect for everybody that, uh, that's on our team.

Wow, that is so profound. What you learn at the academy—

I'm sorry, you dropped out busy.

Can you say that phrase one more time, sir?

Men mean more in a reading of a ship than guns.

Wow, that is so, so insightful. So when you first put on the uniform, did you ever imagine that you would eventually serve as a flag officer? No.

So my first name is Charles. And when the announcement came out that the president had submitted my name to the Senate for confirmation, you know, everyone that I've ever gone to school with knew me as Ken. And so there were a couple of questions. Is this you? Really? So yeah, that was not something I ever, I ever I, you know, I never even thought about it until, you know, the last couple of years that I was a captain. It just never occurred to me. And I just, I just put my head down and just did my job. And that's, that's, that's all I've ever done.

Wow.

And who are some of the mentors that kind of shaped your leadership philosophy along the way?

Gosh, I guess the few, a few names come to mind. Sonny Masso, Rob Ray, Julius Caesar, all flag officers. Uh, but I think the one name that, that comes most immediately to mind is, is Captain Mark Liebman. Uh, Captain Liebman, um, uh, took me and about 18 others, uh, on a detachment, uh, to, to support Carrier Group 770 during the First Gulf War. And, uh, at the end of that, um, well, all during, all during the, the, uh, the, the First Gulf War, uh, Captain Liebman, um, was a counselor, he was director, uh, he, he gave me some opportunities that I don't think any other lieutenant in the Navy would have gotten. And but more importantly, when we, when we left, when we were getting ready to leave, Captain Liebman had the opportunity to get on an airplane by himself and fly home. And he, you know, went to the folks at the Mac terminal and said, either we're all getting on that plane or none of us are getting on that plane. Wow. We all came home together. I never forgot that. And I think interestingly, Captain Liebman is the person that introduced me to my publisher. So he's making impacts in my life even today. He has been a great, he's been a great influence for me.

That is really, really powerful. Now I do have quite a few, uh, young officers, some senior enlisted too, who listen to the podcast, but especially for women and people of color. If you had the ear of every junior officer across the Navy right now, let's say for the next 60 seconds, what would you tell them, sir? Uh, to do, let's say, you know, first thing tomorrow morning?

Validate that you know your space, that you know the things that you are required or expected to be proficient in. Nothing gains respect more than technical proficiency. I would say secondarily, learn to listen, be, be an active listener. My dad used to tell me, You've got two ears and one mouth for a reason. You know, understand that and go with it. But I would say those two things are the best levers for leading your people, because that's why you're there. Yeah, that's why you're there. You know, that's, that's your, that's your main job.

Wow. Powerful. I guess your, your father must have known my mom, sir, because she used to tell me that all the time growing up. It is quite so. So true. So you have led in high-stakes environment where decisions carry national consequences. How do leaders stay calm and decisive when the pressure is extreme?

Um, I think you fall back on your training. Um, I think one of the things about the Navy that I have tried to, um, repeat or conduct in my civilian career is to work as a team. During the First Gulf War, I was the Arabian Gulf Force Over the Horizon track coordinator. What does that mean? My job was to make sure that I always knew where the good guys were, and I always knew where the bad guys were. So if we conducted engagement, there were no mistakes. From the minute you walked into the tactical flight command center, until you walked out, you know, there was no room for error. You absolutely had to be precise. And if there was moments of doubt, then you— I knew I could turn to either the battle watch captain or the assistant battle watch captain or even members of the enlisted team, you know, to help me out. It's a team. But I think that the main part of that's my response to that is fall back on the training. Know your space, and then don't be afraid to ask for help.

Wow.

And having led at such a high level, sir, what do you think are the qualities that distinguish good from great leaders?

Well, I would say the great leaders that I've known were, again, technically proficient. They were great listeners. They understood the mission that they were expected to accomplish, and they knew their role in that, in accomplishing that mission. I think the combination of those factors made them great.

Wow. And I don't know, a lot of the junior officers who follow me, they aspire to one day have command. And I know the Navy teaches you to think both tactically, especially as a junior officer, and eventually strategically as well. How did you your perspective change as you move from operational roles into flag leadership?

So I was always one of those kids that, you know, when, when, when I was told to do something by my parents, my immediate response was why. And I had to temper that as a Navy officer, because, you know, our bosses don't like hearing that. But you can still quietly ask yourself why. I think as I matured in the, in uniform, as I went from, you know, working at the tactical level on a ship to the operational level on a staff, and then later on at Navy Warfare Development Command, and then the Pentagon, what happened was the aperture of what you saw grew. And you— and because you, you had, you had developed some level of expertise along the way, that aperture, it, it widened more so every— at, uh, at every point. And then one day, I think when I was either a very junior captain or a senior commander, is when I had the, uh, the aha moment. It's like, oh man, and now I see, I get it now. Okay, I see how this is all supposed to work. So, um, I think, you know, when you're, when you're J.O. and you're given, you a task that you might think is dumb or unimportant, you know, you go ahead and do it. You try to do it the best you can, but you really don't understand why. I distinctly remember as operations officer on a minesweeper, formatted reports. I thought it was mind-numbing. I hated doing them. But as I grew and I understood that all of that data was going someplace, people were trying to understand the status of the fleet and what we could and what we couldn't do at that particular moment. I got it. And that's when the light came on.

Yeah. Powerful. And if you are able to share— I know some things you may not be able to share publicly, but is there maybe one of the most difficult leadership decisions you ever had to make? You willing to share, sir?

Yeah. I was given the challenge of leading the development of a data product.. And I recruited a couple of colleagues to come in and support that activity. During the course of that effort, one of those people that I had known was a little dishonest. Well, they were dishonest in some of the things that they were doing. I think you can have failures of competence and you can also have failures of character. I think competence can be addressed. That's training. That's, you know, education. There are a number of things you can do with that. Failures of character, that's a little bit more of a challenge. And I had to dismiss this person because they had not only lost my faith, but also the confidence and the faith of the people they were leading. That was tough. I used to sit in church next to this person. It was tough.

Wow.

I know the Navy talks about the 3 C's of leadership, right? Character, competence, and connection. And yeah, it's a— the great majority of sailors, at least in my experience, are really, really good people. As you know, sir, our core values are courage and commitment, and we really do live by that. But I guess from time to time there are a few bad apples, I guess, somehow they managed to—

Well, we are, we are an organization of people, and we do the best that we can to bring in the best people that we can. But, uh, no, no process where people are concerned is perfect, nor will it ever be.

Sure. Well, now, and I think that's quite interesting in, in your career series, you also add quite a lot of experience on dealing with emergent technology, which is pretty amazing. And I guess everybody would agree we are currently living in the age of artificial intelligence. And I definitely care a lot about my military audience, but also my Silicon Valley audience as well. I guess the question I have for you, sir, in today's world where cyber, artificial intelligence, and data influence on national security, how should leaders prepare for the future battle space.

So one of the things that troubled me greatly, uh, during my time in the Pentagon, uh, were some of the conversations I had with some of my fellow flag officers. Um, I, I won't, I won't name names, but, uh, there, there were more than a few of them that when we sat down and start talking about, uh, technology, the first things that— first thing they said is, I don't think about computers. The 21st century That is an unacceptable answer.

Yes.

Given the capability of platforms like LinkedIn with Coursera and other digital learning platforms, if you don't know something, you can learn about it in the privacy of your home without any— without violating any, any information security regulations. There is no excuse. I would tell you that in the 21st century, understanding not being an expert at it, but understanding the capabilities of what tools like AI can do for you is just as important as understanding what radar and sonar can do for you while you're at sea. It's not going away. It's, it's here to stay, and it is growing, and it's getting bigger. Do I think that we need to, you know, live in fear of the, of, of AI? No. But I also think that ignoring it will put us behind the power curve. And our adversaries are— they are all over this stuff. And they're trying to figure out how to use it against us. And it's imperative that we do the same thing.

But I guess a follow-on question, sir, would be, in this age of artificial intelligence, I think data overload is something we definitely have to be very concerned about, right? We have so much more information now that— and also with all of the fake data, deepfake, and all of that, it's becoming very difficult to even know what to trust. How should people listening to us right now think about turning data into strategic advantage?

So every good strategy, every good strategy should have developed some key performance indicators that demonstrate whether the end goal of strategy is being achieved. Those key performance indicators are or should be supported by metrics that are supported by data. You know, in my time as a consultant, you know, I ran across, you know, a couple of business leaders that, you know, when you ask them how things are going, they lick their finger and hold it in the air. Okay, in the 21st century, You know, that should not be your method of understanding where you are in your strategy achievement. Build out the metrics, use data, and don't be afraid to listen to them. If something's bad, then that tells you that that's the place we need to start peeling the onion. Maybe the metric's bad, maybe not. But at the point, that's when you start drilling down to understand Okay, is this the way to go or not? But so, you know, information overload. I'm not a big fan or believer in that. I think that if you understand where you want to go and you are measuring it appropriately, that information, though it might be ancillary, can either enhance or, or, you know, maybe get you to look at something that you possibly had not, had not previously considered.

Yeah, so you just reminded me of a quote by General Powell, right, when he said, "Bad news is entwined," right? It doesn't—

does not get better with age. That's the only time you'll hear me quote an Army guy.

Yes, sir. So from a national security perspective, then, what risks do you see just at the high level, uh, emerging from AI, cyber conflict, and digital or information warfare?

So, um, data has always been, um, a powerful tool. Um, I think in today's world, we're finally at a, at a place where we've got the computing capability to, to do something with it. Um, I think protecting that data keeping it secure is important. But I also think understanding how we're using that data is just as important. We've got to keep our methods secure as well. I think, you know, in the corporate world, you know, we worry about, you know, people leaving their phones or their laptops someplace unsecure. It doesn't really happen that much with DOD, but you can have a data spillage or leak just as easily. You could include something in an email, in an unclassified email that can leak out. In the corporate world, you can include something, especially these days, you know, with things like Google Docs and using the Gemini AI to look at spreadsheet, not done properly, you're exposing your organization. And so understanding the risk as well as the power that these tools can provide us is important, but also understanding and protecting how we're using them is just as important.

Yes, sir. So now I want to kind of get into your thrillers. I believe the very first one you wrote is this one, Nuclear Dragon, and then I played the trailer for General Quarters. And like I say, there is another one coming this summer or this fall, Panther. What inspired you to become a novelist, sir?

Uh, Tom Clancy. Um, when I was, uh, when I was a lieutenant, um, I reported, uh, to the Navy Anti-Submarine Warfare School in Norfolk, Virginia. And on the first day, the instructor came in and, um, handed us copies of Hunt for Red October. I'd read, you know, a book, uh, by Clancy some number of years before while I was at the academy, but I don't think, um, it impacted me the way that, that, uh, October did. It was a— he was an insurance salesman from Maryland who'd never spent a day in uniform and had strung together this amazing and compelling and interesting and exciting story. Oh, I thought, well, and this might have been my own hubris at the time, thinking, well, this guy can do it, I can do this too. I went to the best college on the planet. You know, surely this is something I can handle. I was wrong. Writing fiction is tough. It's hard. And I started out by writing this War and Peace-sized novel about my last year at the Naval Academy. And I was fortunate to, after several hundred, you know, declines by literary agents and publishers, to run into someone who was— who was published, who took a look at it and took it home for a weekend, came back and said, hey, Ken, here's the good news. You've got a story to tell. Here's the bad news. You're doing a terrible job of telling that. You need to go to writing class. And so I did. And—

Wow.

And so truth be told, Panther was the first thing that I wrote from that writing class. And it has gone through several modifications and iterations over the years, you know, and to the point where it's almost ready to come out. Nuclear Dragon is my homage to the Navy Reserve. General Quarters is my homage to the surface warfare community, my people. And Panther is my homage to Naval Aviation, the place that I really want to go. At least I thought that's where I want to go when I, when I, when I entered the Naval Academy.

Wow, that is really, really, really powerful. Because it seems like looking at your books, it looks like, I mean, this is fiction, but it looks pretty realistic. Uh, I'm, I'm— how much of the fiction is inspired by real-world experiences in the Navy in those books?

Uh, it's a good question. Um, so as everyone on this call probably knows, there's a good amount of tension between, between the United States and China.

Yeah.

And I don't think that tension is going to go away anytime soon, and it creates great fodder for, uh, for fiction. Um, I think, uh, my time in the Navy, uh, you know, definitely influences my writing. I spent a good amount of time working with Seventh Fleet. Um, I spent a lot of time on board Navy ships, uh, and, uh, at Seventh Fleet we had a huge reserve contingent. Um, and, uh, and, you know, working and understanding, you know, the staff I think all of that coalesced into me being able to, you know, put together a few stories that I think the audience will find compelling, interesting, and maybe just a little bit exciting.

Wow. Well, so like I was telling you in the green room, here is my mentor. He is saying, okay, here's a question for you, sir.

Okay.

How does the Navy end up with toxic people in leadership position? I believe you mentioned your very first commanding officer was one of those people. How does that happen?

Well, um, so first of all, every, every leadership position in the Navy, uh, is, um, um, appointed, uh, appointed by a board. Uh, we hold boards for promotions, we hold boards for command selection. Those boards are only as good as the, the fitness reports and evaluations, um, that, um, their, their seniors write for them and submit, um, for, um, for personnel reports. So if we're not, if we're not, um, writing good evaluations and good fitness reports— and what I mean by good, I mean honest, sure, um, then, you know, it creates, it creates a flaw in the system. You know, for a few minutes we've been talking about artificial intelligence. So artificial intelligence is the very embodiment of garbage in equals garbage out.

Yes.

And if the underlying data that's going into teaching the large language models that are used to train AI is bad, then the, the result is going to go bad. Similarly speaking, if the people who are writing evaluations and fitness reports on officers are not being honest about what these officers can do and who they are, especially in a leadership environment. And consequently, the board can't make an intelligent decision. I've sat, I don't know, 5, 5 promotion boards, flag promotion boards, and I can't count how many, you know, command selection boards. And, you know, we're, you know, we're looking at what people gave us. Yes. And, and that's all. And here's the interesting thing about a board. You get somewhere right around 45 seconds in a promotion board to look at someone's record. And, and if that information is not accurate, we can't do anything with it. And the neat thing about a promotion board, I think, is, you know, the Navy promotion board system, I think, is the most equitable and fair evaluation and promotion system I've ever seen. If you know something negative about the individual in front of you and it's not in their record, you can't say anything about that.

Yes, yes, fair.

That's good. If you're gonna say something negative about someone, put it in writing. If you're not, you know, and then again, the system follows it up.

So, well, I can definitely confirm that, sir, because, uh, yes, my, uh, CDA Captain Joe Rothschild, who asked the question, I was a lieutenant JG when he asked me, he pretty much ordered me to go to Millington and volunteer as a recorder assistant. And I'm glad I finally did. It took a while, but I was a Lieutenant Commander and I saw exactly how the sausage is made. Yes, it's not perfect, but it's one of the best systems I have ever seen. And for junior officers listening to us right now, please volunteer to go. And he used to tell me, go one year before you are in zone, right? This way you will know exactly what to do with your record. Yes, sir.

So I didn't go to my first board until I was a captain, and I sat there listening to how the process works thinking, oh my God, how did I get here?

Yes, yes. And then of course I had another great, great privilege when I was a commander. I was actually a voting member. I'm like, wow, I can't believe this. Uh, I was just here like, I don't know, maybe 7, 8 years earlier as an recorder assistant, and now I am actually one of the people who's deciding who's going to get promoted to O-4 or not. It's just an experience like you've never seen. And also, Justus Fagan, I know you have to go now, but the good news with doing this live on LinkedIn and YouTube, it's going to be immediately available for replay when we are done. And by the end of today, it should be available on all of the podcast platforms. Okay, a follow-on question from Captain Rothschild: How do we fix the problem with fit webs.

Um, I, I assume that he's, he was, he's referring to, you know, what we were just discussing.

Yes, the toxic leaders.

Again, I think that it requires, it requires, I think, organizational courage on the part of the leader to write, write, write, write their officers honest, honest, honest, uh, report. Yes, because someone, if someone is, is, is, has got great technical chops but, uh, has just this inability to get anything done without raising their voice or demeaning people.

Yes.

Um, they need to hear about it. And, and you know what's so the neat thing about the, about the, the evaluation process now is that we've got mid-cycle reviews. Um, so you, you know, it is inappropriate to wait until someone is sitting in front of you to receive their, the final copy of their, of their, of their performance report, hear about something negative for the first time. That's not fair. It's not right. Doesn't give them an opportunity to correct. But at the same time, it's also, uh, not appropriate to, to see something and, and not say something. That's your job. That's what you're supposed to do.

And, and the, the other thing, so, because one of my best keepers, she really taught me how to manage my average, right, my risk. I think there are quite a lot of people, especially on the reserve side more than on, on active duty, they just don't know how to manage their risk. Like, everybody gets a 5, everybody gets a 4, and then when they get a top performer, they can't really tell the board, this one you absolutely have to promote, is not the same as my average officer. So as a new CEO, what would you advise people who you mentor how to effectively manage their risk?

I always get a copy of your reports from Millington.. You can always get that. And then, um, uh, once that's in hand, sit down with your senior rater and, uh, and understand, uh, to you. So where not only can you understand where you are, they can understand where you are too, because, uh, every one of us is, you know, in, in command, you know, has, has written, uh, a fitness report. And I'll be the first to say, if I, if I, I probably made a mistake by not rating someone appropriately. You might inadvertently hurt someone that you're trying to help, or vice versa. And, you know, and I think anyone coming to talk to you at the mid-review that hasn't gone through the effort of understanding where they are in the continuum, they're not doing themselves any good, and they're certainly not putting you in a position to help them as much as possible.

All right, so let's get into your writing. I did play the trailer for General General Quarter. I guess one question I have, sir, why did this book have to be written? Why did you have to write it?

Uh, so, so, so, um, Nuclear Dragon and General Quarter are complementary books. So General Quarter is the sequel to Nuclear Dragon. I wanted to do something with the main character after, uh, after Nuclear Dragon. Um, I wanted to you know, I want to show some progression, um, uh, in, in this person's career. Um, backing up a little bit, um, I would, I would, I would take a question and I would say, why write these books in the first place? I've always been, um, a fan of this particular genre, and looking around, uh, and, and reading the stories that are out there, I thought there's one thing missing. There is not an African American lead character in these stories. I wanted to, you know, I wanted, I wanted a Black Jack Ryan. I wanted a Navy officer who is thrown inadvertently into, you know, these difficult situations. You know, he's using his guile, his intelligence, his humanity to save the day. And not always you know, a key player. Sometimes he's, you know, he's sitting next to the key player, but, you know, he's either shouting in their ear or whispering in their ear. But at the end of the day, uh, he is the focus of, of, uh, of, of the story. Um, and, um, you know, what's interesting is Panther's coming out later on this year, uh, different main character, um, but, you know, the formula is still there, uh, challenging situation man of color smack in the middle of it, having to use guile, intelligence, and so on. But, um, uh, why did I have to write General Quarters? Again, I, I wanted to, I wanted to, um, talk about the capabilities of the Navy surface warfare community. Yes, we can do some really amazing things that most people don't know, that we can shoot down ballistic missiles. Um, no one else in the world's got that. Yes, it's, it's, it's, it's a pretty exciting and amazing capability. And I wanted to, I wanted to write a story that, that captures some of that, some of that, that ability.

That is really insightful, because now, as you know, in naval tradition, General Quarters means every sailor goes to their battle station, right? What inspired the title and the theme of this one specifically?

So everything is leading up, you know, there's, there's, there's this ratcheting of tension that, that culminates and the commanding officer of the ship in the middle of the story calling the crew to battle stations. And the Navy in its truest sense gets the job done.

Well, without giving away spoilers, what is the central conflict in the story, if you may want to share, sir?

Sure.

As the trailer indicates, the Navy whether the Navy— the US finds out that, uh, China is, uh, providing the North Koreans nuclear, uh, weapons capabilities to put on their, their burgeoning, uh, missile capability. And, um, there is an adverse reaction to that in the United States. Um, the president decides to reopen Taiwan. Um, and there's just a, a, a chain of events going on, uh, in China, as well as in the United States, that culminates, um, in, uh, in, in, uh, a very exciting, uh, moment or two in the Taiwan Straits between Chinese and U.S. forces.

Yes. Now, this is a leadership show. Uh, which leadership lesson you think the young reader might get out of reading that one book?

Um, I would say the the understanding that sometimes your first reaction, um, an emotional reaction to doing something, uh, may not serve the people you're leading, uh, the best. Uh, some, you know, you know, taking a step back, you know, I think in, in both, in both General Quarters and Nuclear Dragon, uh, I present, um, a situation where things could really go full tilt very easily. And but for, um, the, uh, I guess the, um, uh, the intelligence and the patience of people involved, um, you know, things don't go to the point where, um, um, we would all regret it. I think that our leaders, um, you know, and backing up a little bit, you know, I, again, I grew up in Alabama, and, you know, growing up, there was a, there was a tension between Black people and white people. Yes. And, um, uh, didn't know them, they didn't know me. And it's been my experience that as you engage other cultures, they become less of this blob of things that you don't get, you don't understand, and that maybe it, you know, provides a little bit of understanding. It's really, really difficult to dislike someone that you know. It's hard. Sometimes it's really easy to dislike some people, you know, but generally speaking, it's, it's not. And I think that, um, in the situation where these two books are concerned, um, again, I'm hoping that, you know, our, our leaders can, can, can step— take a step back from the precipice. You know, the, the Chinese have become very aggressive in the last few years. They forced planes out of the sky, uh, they've rammed ships, all kinds of, you know, bad behavior. Uh, I think, you know, if their leaders we understand that we've got more to lose by, by going to blows than, than, uh, than we've got to gain, I think maybe, uh, there's a chance we'll, we'll step back from that.

And I guess you mentioned it, the prequel to General, uh, Carter White, Nuclear Dragon, uh, it really, uh, explores global security at a much larger scale. What inspired the story behind Nuclear Dragon?

I was reading a book, um, uh, actually, yeah, I guess it was a book and then some following articles about the, the possibility of nuclear fusion and all of the, all of the, uh, the things that it could do for us. China as well as the United States, uh, have a quest for power. We, we, you know, with, with the advent of AI and electric cars, we're consuming, you know, power now more than we ever have before. We're polluting the atmosphere. You know, this gave us an opportunity. The fusion gives us an opportunity to really change all that. In the creation of a working generator, you wouldn't want to put that someplace near a populated area. And putting it off the coast of Japan in a disused facility just created too much temptation for the Chinese. They had to have it. And so I think that, you know, the, the, the quest for oil, energy, burgeoning populations, the use of technology and energy, it just created— you know, it was just a natural story to write. Again, you know, Seventh Fleet was, was someplace I spent a lot of time. I learned a lot in that part of the world, and it just created an opportunity to, to base the story there.

And back to leadership, sir, what message were you hoping to communicate about global power and leadership through this book, Nuclear Dragon?

Um, patience. Patience. Understand, listen. Listen, listen, listen. Try to hear what the other side's issues are. You might find that the same as ours, and there might be some room for common ground. I think, you know, strategically, we should, in the United States, have a vision of where we want to be in the next 20 years or so.

And we should work—

be working toward that. I think one thing about China that anyone who has studied their government will tell you they've got a clear vision of where they want to go. Yes, they really do. Ours seems to change every, every 4 to 8 years. Sure. I'm not entirely sure that's a, that's a winning strategy or not.

Yes. And in my experience, having served in the Pacific, it's, it's like a lot of Asian countries, they really have long-term perspective and know how to sacrifice today for what they want. 50, 100 years from now, even when they are no longer alive. But our microwave generation back home, it looks like we can hardly wait for what's going to happen in the next 30 seconds. But yeah, that does make a really big difference. Now, reading your books, it reminds me of Jack Ryan or even James Bond, so many thrillers that do emphasize lots and lots of action. Yours does too, but you also highlight strategic thinking. What was Why was that important to you as a storyteller?

Well, I mean, I think stories, um, compelling stories can only have so much pop and fizzle.

Yes.

I like to say that I think, uh, in, in the, in the, the stories that I've written, uh, there's something there for everyone. Um, you know, I, I think, yeah, I think it'd be very easy for me to talk about blowing this up, blowing that up, um, but I think You know, going back to a prior part of our conversation about me asking the question why, I think, you know, exploring the why is what's gonna attract an intelligent reader to the work that I've done.

Powerful. Now, did anything surprise you being a writer for Freyler's novel? What surprised you the most?

How hard it was to do. Um, I, I think, I think so. When, when, when I wrote— when I wrote General Quarters, for instance, um, I was, I was, I was, uh, I was a Geographic bachelor in, uh, in, in Washington, DC. And, and so, uh, I had a, I had a two-bedroom apartment, uh, around the corner from the Pentagon. And, um, and I started outlining the story and What surprised me were some of the ancillary storylines that accompanied the main storyline and bringing those in and concluding them in an interesting way. I think it was kind of a surprise because, I mean, the baseline storyline, I had that. I knew what I wanted to do, but I had to put some things on the edges of it as well. And I how, how, how that came about and, um, and some of the, the resolutions that, um, that I developed were, were kind of a surprise.

Well, so the fictitious character I mentioned, Jack Ryan, James Bond, they all eventually turn into a mega, you know, uh, blockbuster Hollywood feature. If, uh, your books went that direction. Who would you like to play the main character?

Is it Michael B. Jordan?

He just won the Oscar, didn't he?

Yeah, that's, um, uh, yeah, um, he, uh, I, I've, I've watched his career, um, since The Wire, and, uh, I was happy to see that he got an Academy Award. Uh, I think the other name that comes to mind is Sterling K. Brown. Um, I like his work as well. And oh, by the way, for those of you listening, if you've got friends in Hollywood, I'll talk to them. Thank you.

Wonderful. No, this is just great because I also love the way he's so humble because the first thing he said when he got the Oscar was to thank everybody who ever had it from Sidney Poitier all the way down. It's just so wonderful to see someone who's so talented but so humble. And yeah, definitely represents us well. I will definitely vouch for Michael B. Jordan, sir. That's, that is a great, great choice. All right. We only have about 7 minutes left, sir. So that's where I'm going to try to kind of get into your mindset and maybe you can teach us some of the principles and philosophies that helped you lead at such high level in your career, both in and out of uniform. So for this last segment, sir, I'd like to start with what do you believe is one of the greatest lessons you have ever learned, whether in life, in leadership, or just in general?

So on my, on my second ship, we were on deployment in the Med. And we were doing some work out on the fo'c'sle. And we got the word that a storm was coming. And um, um, I elected to leave a piece of gear on the deck. Um, I thought we had lashed it down pretty well. My master chief, um, you know, quizzed me, sir, are you sure you want to do that? And I went, yeah, yeah, we got to go, we got to go. And, um, and so we, um, weighed anchor, put out to sea, and sometime in the middle of the night, uh, I was awakened, uh, and pulled to the bridge. And as I got to the bridge, every time the ship rolled either to port or starboard, the superstructure of the, of the ship shuddered. And I was informed by the captain personally that my piece of gear was, quote, beating the crap out of his ship and whatnot about it. So moments later, I went down below, had to awaken the Master Chief, who was not too happy. And then I got my entire division up. The next thing you know, we're going out on deck. To bring in this gear. And BZ, I gotta tell you, I've seen some waves in my life, but these are the biggest I've ever seen. And I, I was, I was, I was awestruck. So much so that one of my guys tapped me on the shoulder and says, come on, sir, we got to go, we got to go. As we're bringing the gear in, a wave took me over the side.

Oh no.

I was attached with a lifeline. But I was over the side. I was in the ocean. I was in the med, I was in the med. And wow, every time I went to take a breath, um, I got a, I got a mouthful of seawater. Uh, obviously they dragged me back in, uh, and I do mean drag across the non-skid, across the deck, coming— they dragged me back in and I'm, I'm laying on the deck and I'm coughing up seawater. And, uh, Master Chief was standing over, over me and he, uh, and he said, "See, sir, I blankin' told you not to go out there." So the thing I took away from that is something that stayed with me over the years. And that's that decisions, how menial or insignificant you think they are, can be life-threatening. You know, because of that moment of hubris, I endangered the lives of 4 people, including myself, needlessly. And so that stayed with me. So decisions, especially in the operational environment, decisions have consequences, and you really need to listen and understand what's going on around you and, and, and have some foresight, have some foresight into what may be coming.

Wow. Well, we, we have a, an active member of our tribe, Daniel Young. Uh, he says, Admiral Cardone, when you suddenly had to take command in combat as a young officer, what specific mindset kept you steady in that moment? And how can young leaders practice that before they are under fire?

So to be clear, I've never taken command in combat. He's probably referring to the book versus in real life. Okay, so let's, let's be clear about that.

All right, I guess we did say your, your book has a sense of realism to it, so he just made an assumption, sir. But yes, right.

So, um, I would say, you know, the thing for me, uh, when we talked about this a few minutes ago, uh, is when in the First Gulf War, um, uh, when I was in, uh, on the, uh, the Carrier Group 770 staff. Um, um, I think for me, uh, I fell back on my training. Um, I, I, I listened to every radio call that was going on inside the space. I don't think I, I, I made that very— maybe a handful of transmissions in the course of the, the, the 2 months that we were, that we were in combat. And I listened a lot. And I, you know, I did my job. And again, there was no room for error. I mean, I had to be absolutely sure where everything was all the time. And so I would say, you know, learn your space, learn your space, you know, listen to your people, act as a team.

Powerful.

Powerful.

And we are almost running out of time, sir, but I do have to ask you this. As an admiral, you've had a lot, a lot of successes, and we know all about that. But what about failure, sir? How has failure shaped your life?

Well, you know, Dad, going back to Dad, used to say, you know, it's not the failure, it's what you do next. You know, during that speech that you showed at the beginning of the program.

Yeah, J.O. Johnson.

Yeah, I went back to my alma mater high school to deliver the, the baccalaureate address. And I talked about the fact that in my life, I have failed at just about everything I've ever tried, just about everything. And, and I would say that coming back from it, depending on the weight of it, be hard. But I think holding yourself accountable for your, your, your part in the failure is the first step.

Yes.

Understanding, you know, what you could have done better, whether it means, you know, communicating, whether it's behavior. It's, it's important. It's not an easy thing to do. I think, you know, I think everybody to some extent, you know, has got something in the, in the, in their, in their rearview mirror that they wish they can do over again. I know I certainly do. Um, and I, you know, it's, you know, and sometimes it's a little difficult to, you know, to walk past it, you know, to get past it, I mean. But it's something that you have to do because life goes on. And, um, and, you know, we are compelled, you know, to learn from our mistakes and, um, and do better. And, um, uh, and repeating, as I said before, you know, I don't believe anybody— I don't believe anybody comes to work I don't believe anybody comes, you know, to a relationship, uh, to fail. I think they come to do the best job that they can, and then, you know, when it happens, when the failure happens, it creates a learning moment or teaching moment for you or for them, depending on, on your role.

Wow, thank you so much for sharing that. So we are quickly running out of time. We are having so much fun here, sir. So, uh, one thing I'd like to do is ask, how can my audience add value back to you?

Gosh, I would say number one, you know, if you've got questions about anything you've heard today, you know, shoot me questions. I'd love to answer, love talking to people. I love people. I, I'm currently, I'm, I think I'm in the final quarter of my working life. Um, my quest at this point is to try to find something to do that I can provide meaningful impact. I've been working for the better part of the last year as an independent consultant. That work's fun. I want very much for my creative writing projects to, you know, to see more than a modicum of success. Um, but I think the number one thing right now is just, uh, You know, help me help you. How can I be of assistance to you? I like helping people. I think it's— I think creating opportunities for folks, you know, everybody wants a kind word from time to time. I mean, everybody does. And so I think— I think that that's about the best I can tell you there, BZ.

Thank you so much. And of course, if you have connection in Hollywood, please, please let us know. They should be turned into blockbuster movie. And Michael B. Jordan as the role for sure. This is, this is going to, going to be fun. So I guess before I answer, is there a question I should have asked you I didn't get a chance to ask? Anything else you wanted to share before we go, sir?

No, I don't think so. If anybody finds their way down to Tampa, Florida, live on a golf course, love to take you out.

We'll have a great time. And then one of the most important questions I ask, sir, if you could go back and give a piece of advice to your 17-year-old self, standing at the edge of this incredible, incredible career you've had. What would you say to 17-year-old Ken?

When you get to the Naval Academy, study harder. Study harder. Just study harder.

Yes. All right. And I do like to end on a positive note. What is something you are feeling optimistic about, sir?

Uh, I'm feeling optimistic, um, about, um, I'm feeling optimistic about the, the next 4 or 5 years of my life. Uh, I, uh, I've spent a lot of time, um, in the last year or two looking back and, you know, trying to figure out what I could have done differently, um, what changes I, I would, I would like to make. And I think that on a personal level trying to figure out how to be a better person, better man, you know, better dad. I'm a grandfather now. I have to throw a shout out to my granddaughter whose name is Navy. Um, you know, it's— and, uh, so trying to figure out how to, how to be a bigger part of her life. Um, and, um, and, you know, and carry on my family tradition. I mean, my, my folks were advanced degree educators. Um, my siblings have done very, very well. My kids are amazing people. I want to continue trying to be the kind of person that my friends would love to have me around as a friend.

Wow.

Powerful.

Thank you so much for sharing, sir. And of course, I want you back here, sir, whenever Panther comes out this May or this fall. We need to have a discussion about it, maybe help you make it a bestseller. So the very last question I have for you, one word, sir, that represents our shared experience on this podcast this morning. One word?

One word?

Yes, sir.

Uh, gratitude. Thank you.

Well, I am so grateful. And we have a giant here on the, uh, Leadership and Success Podcast. Thank you so much for sharing your outstanding wisdom and insight, sir. We really appreciate it.

Really appreciate it. Thank you.

All right, everybody, so this is it. This is one for the book. I actually went over by a couple of minutes. I usually don't like to go over even by one second when I talk to a flag officer, but I'm so grateful for their time and for just sharing with, with us about leadership and their experience. Again, get a copy of the book. They are available everywhere books are sold. Amazon is a good place to get it. Nuclear Dragon and General Quartermaster. And again, Panther is coming either this summer or this fall, and we will make sure to get the Admiral back whenever it is released. So follow the Admiral on LinkedIn, Ken Cowodine, Direct Governance and Also his personal website, KenCowdenBooks.com. All right. This is all we have for today. And as you know, last month I decided we're going to have Black History Year, not just Black History Month, on the Leadership and Success Podcast. So we are celebrating Black history every single day until the end of 2026, because I believe Black history is American history. And for today, it's quite a It's a very important day for me because today is what, March the 17th, right? So on March 17th, 1944, that is when the Golden 13, they broke Navy history. The very first officers, Black officers of the U.S. Navy Reserve. So I'm gonna play a really quick clip About that, we want to honor them today. And like I've said in my post for those who follow me, there wouldn't be a Commander Bob Fabien Zinga without the Golden 13. So I am very, very grateful. Again, I stand on the shoulders of giants. So I also want to let you know I'm gonna be back today. We are going to be speaking, before I forget, in a couple of hours with Lieutenant Colonel Kevin Schmigal, and he's a Marine Corps retiree. He's a combat-tested Marine leader, nation builder, and social impact leader. We're gonna be talking about transition with purpose, avoiding the leadership identity crisis. He's going to be in the right here on the Leadership and Success Podcast in just a couple of hours today. And then tomorrow I will have the great pleasure of speaking with a cybersecurity expert. That's Arti Ghadia. She's a changemaker, a global Catalyst. We're going to be talking about breaking barriers and building leaders in cybersecurity, about our global impact. And I believe I had one more person scheduled. Let me see if I can see. I will let you know later today, but we have another cybersecurity expert we're going to be talking to the day after tomorrow. All right, here is a clip celebrating the Golden 13 and Hopefully I'm going to see you guys in a couple of hours when we speak to the one and only Lieutenant Colonel Kevin Schmigal, USMC, retired.

We have their inspiring story in Heroes Among Us, presented by Navy Federal Credit Union. In 1944, there were nearly 100,000 Black sailors in the United States Navy. United States Navy, none of which were officers. That would change when a group of 16 African American enlisted men assembled at the recruit training center in Illinois in hopes of becoming United States Naval officers. Officer training school for the United States Navy was 16 weeks. However, that was not the case for the Golden 13. They were given only weeks to accomplish the same achievement as their white counterparts, a move many believe was an attempt to ensure their failure. With the odds stacked against them, these 16 men band together to support one another, placing blankets over their windows at night and studying with flashlights.

You know, to think of the Golden 13 and, you know, pulling back the blinds so that no one would know that they're still up studying That's, you know, the peer pressure of that. Guys, we have to do this to show the military, to show the U.S. Navy that we have what it takes to be pilots in the Navy. And that's that glue, that bond that I think that makes our military so powerful.

When the course was over, all 16 passed their exams. In fact, their scores were so remarkable that some in Washington were certain that the men had cheated. When the group was forced to retake certain exams, they scored even higher with a cumulative average totaling 3.8 out of 4. At the time, this was the highest score of any candidate in naval history.

You overcome adversity by teamwork. First off, these gentlemen were highly educated. They were just about the cream of the crop. So they were well-educated and capable of doing what the Navy wanted them to do. But because of the instilled, ingrained racism, like you said, they made them test twice. But the perseverance and the teamwork, the excellence, excellent story.

Despite the fact all 16 men passed the Navy's requirements, the service elected to only commission 13 of the men. Earning them the nickname the Golden 13. The additional seamen were, without explanation, sent back into the enlisted ranks.

It's unfortunate that, that, that did happen, but when I think about the, just the, both the overt and, uh, just direct racism that a lot of those that came before me, uh, had to endure, really made me strive more, you know, you got to be the best, but that also puts some undue pressure on yourself. But that's how I looked at it. I will perform at the very best of everything that I'm required to do, both tactically, technically, and professionally, so that there is no question about my competence, my ability to lead soldiers both in peacetime and in war.

These untold stories have paved the way for other African-American Americans to make their mark in the United States military. Their accomplishments were revolutionary, spurring the vision of hope for today's military servicemen.

The hostility, the open hostility they faced, that was government policy at the time.

It's unthinkable now. They allowed me to achieve my dream. I always wanted to serve, and by them doing so, it allowed me to achieve my dream.

African Americans have been contributing to the nation's success for many years in all ranks, from, you know, Dorie Miller, who shot down numerous attack airplanes coming in during World War II, to Crispus Attucks, to General Lloyd Austin, who's now the Secretary of Defense. We've been contributing and serving in any number of capacities. And we've given during those times when our country didn't necessarily love us. That is really a testament to the character of those that serve and persevere despite being badly treated. We're willing to sacrifice and give our lives for the well-being of this nation, and that's why I think it's so vital that this story is told.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.