S5:E66🎙️ LIVE with Aubrey Bergauer “The Steve Jobs of Classical Music” 🎼📈

¡Hola!

Hi, I'm John Maxwell. When the top companies in the world are looking for trainers, speakers, and coaches, there's one name that stands above the rest, and that's Maxwell Leadership. Our certified team members have gotten proven results for companies all over the globe, and our reputation, I'm proud to say, is second to none. Some of our members have risen to the top of their profession, including the one you're going to meet today. I proudly introduce you to my friend, Bob Fabien Zinga.

Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ, where we help you lead with purpose and succeed with impact. If you're ready to grow into the kind of leader others want to follow, this podcast is for you. If you're determined to elevate your success and leave a lasting legacy, this podcast is for you. As my mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell, reminds us, everything rises and falls on leadership. Our goal is simple, to inspire you, challenge you, and equip you with insights that can transform the trajectory of your leadership journey. Welcome aboard to Welcome to another episode of the Leadership Success Podcast with Coach BZ.

Who here wants a customer retention rate that's 3x your industry average? Love it! When I think of innovation and change, I think of Aubrey. She's been there, she's done it, she is boots on the ground making change. My entire career has been in arts administration. I've served institutions of all sizes. And what you need to know about the California Symphony. Over the last 5 years, we have nearly doubled our audience and quadrupled our donor base. She is an A1 badass who understands what you need to do to scale and evolve into the 21st century. We've just got to allow ourselves permission to experiment. We're talking about a mind shift that needs to happen at our institutions.

How do we begin to In Las Vegas, I was the emcee of that show, but I think she was the star of the show. Brought such an incredible, passionate performance.

So how do we go to those desired customers and ask them to help us design an experience that they can't live without? We have tremendous power, tremendous economic impact, and we also have tremendous product. We are in this business to grow customer relationships over the long haul.

All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of the Leadership and Success podcast. We have a very, very special guest waiting for us in the green room, and as is our tradition here, our custom, we want to start with what we call the moment of gratitude. So the way we are going to get this is only takes a moment. We want to think about one thing that we are grateful for right now. So if you would maybe close your eyes, put yourself in your happy place, maybe take a deep breath and slow down your nervous system and think about one thing. You are grateful for right now. And it's Women's History Month in America, and I am really grateful for all of the impact that women have had in my life. Some of the best skipper, best commanding officers I've had in the Navy are all women. And I think the one woman who had the most impact on my life, of course, is my mother. And I am so grateful for women. And as the father of two girls, I really want America to be absolutely to provide equity to women. I am still very much, I don't know, surprised and shocked that women still make about, what, 80 cents on the dollar compared to men for the same background, same experience. I don't think that is fair. That is not right at all. We are in 2026 and I am just grateful for their contribution. Okay, so let us know in the chat where you are joining us from. Which city, which state, and if outside of the US, which country, what you are grateful for. And I want to say hello to Daniel Young, a very active member of our tribe, joining us from Midland, Florida. And if you have a question for our guests, please type it in the comments. All right, let me see if I can properly introduce our guests today. So today we are going to be speaking— it's a great honor and privilege to speak to Aubrey Bergauer. She's a visionary CEO, bestselling author, and global thought leader who has redefined what leadership, innovation, and growth look like in legacy industry. As executive director of the California Symphony, she doubled audiences, nearly quadrupled donor base, transformed a struggling organization into a thriving data-driven powerhouse. She's the bestselling author of the number one bestseller, Run It Like a Business: A Leadership Playbook for Building Relevance. Revenue and impact without losing mission. So ladies and gentlemen, please help me welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast, the one and only Audrey Bergauer, also known as the Steve Jobs of classical music. All right. Good afternoon, Audrey. How are you doing today?

Hi, Bob. I'm great. Thanks for having me.

No, this is really a great pleasure and honor to be speaking to you today. Maybe to get started, what is one thing you are grateful for today?

I have to say today in particular, 80-degree weather in San Francisco never ever happens, and I'm pretty grateful for it.

Yes. Yes. I was in the city yesterday. It was about 80 degrees too. I can't believe this is winter. I mean, these are the best winters ever. I think the first winter I experienced in the US is when I was in New York, New York City. That was terrible.

Absolutely terrible.

California is really, really good. So is there maybe something about you that most people may not know?

Something about me most people may not know is that I am learning Italian right now. Sto imparando italiano.

Buongiorno.

Buongiorno. Buonasera.

Fantastic. Actually, my last name is Italian as well. Zinga. Actually, there is a village, I think, in southeast Italy that is named after me, I say, but of course it's not named after me. But anyway, I would like to take my kids there just to check it out. That is really, really, really cool. So I guess let's start at the beginning. Maybe can you take us back to that moment at 16 years old? What did you see that others did not see?

For me, at 16 years old, at that point in my life, I was like a nerdy orchestra kid. I'll call myself that. And I played in the Houston Youth Symphony. Houston's where I grew up. And, oh my gosh, there we are. Okay, that's me at like age 12 when I first started. I couldn't even reach the mouthpiece of the tuba. I was like, anyways, fast forward, and I became very serious. I loved beating all the boys. There was like a whole, you know, breaking stereotypes Yes. It kind of came out through that. And yet at 16, I'm in the Houston Youth Symphony, and before orchestra rehearsal one day, they introduced us to a new person, which was the brand new executive director. And that was the first time in my life, I think they said like a sentence about what that role was, but it was the first time in my life I realized there is a job offstage managing this whole operation. And I love the tuba, but it's not what I want to do for the rest of my life. That's what I want to do for the rest of my life. So that's what I thought at 16.

That is really, really amazing because you kind of chose a path that most people don't even know exists. What gave you that clarity so early, you think?

I think, I mean, they say, right, when we talk about representation, they say, if you see it, you can become it. And I've learned that that's a job. It happened to be a woman in that job. And it's so true what you're saying. It's such a niche occupation. And most people, even in arts management, don't come to this profession until much later in life. They started as a performer and switched or something like that. So yeah, it's pretty specific that at 16, I was like, that's what I want to do.

Wow. I really like what you say, right? Representation does matter. It matters actually a lot. Like, we talked a little bit about General Powell in The Green Moon, but that's really somebody who led me from a distance. I knew things were possible for me because of him. Seeing it with your own eyes, it is quite incredible. And inspiring and so, so powerful. So how did your dual background in music and business shape how you see leadership today?

I think I knew that I wanted to have this offstage management role and so pursued both degrees, music performance as well as business. And so all of my training, it's interesting, these degrees had no overlap at all. Yet that meant it was up to me to try to kind of integrate the concepts I was learning. And for most people in the arts, we tend to say art and business don't mix, or the art's over here, the business is over here. And over the years, I've just realized that there's nothing farther from the truth. We need in the arts revenue to fund our mission. We don't get to produce art if we don't have the money to pay for it, certainly at a high level.

True.

Similar to that, continuing on that theme, we don't get to do what we do if we don't have an audience. And putting all of those things together, we need revenue to fund what we do, to fund our mission, and we need an audience. I mean, nobody wants to perform to an empty house. Like, if you're a performer, no matter what artistic discipline, theater, orchestra, opera, whatever, you name it, dancer, you don't want to perform to an empty house. So all these things together, I'm like, no, no, no, one begets the other. We need all of us onstage and offstage doing what we do. To run the business of this.

That is so, so powerful. I started playing the piano when I was 7 years old. I started with classical music for about 2 years. But one thing my dad used to tell us is, yeah, you can do this for passion, but don't let that be your career because musicians don't make any money. And that was kind of sad that he thought that way. But it's really amazing. We're going to be talking about your bestselling book in Just a Moment, but Run It Like a Business. That tool tells you everything you need to know about music and its strategy for art organization to increase audiences, remain relevant, and multiply money. That is so, so key if you are going to be successful without losing the art. That is just so powerful. I guess the next question I have for you is, you've been called the Steve Jobs of classical music. What does that mean to you?

That is one of the nicest things ever said about me. I know not everybody always says nice things about Steve Jobs.

I hope that—

I hope the person who wrote that meant like the good things about Steve Jobs. But for me, um, I think it carries a connotation of being innovative, of pushing the industry forward. Um, I think both those things are pretty true to who I am and how I like to operate.

That is really, really so insightful. And how do you balance innovation with tradition, especially in legacy institutions?

Oh, Bob, this is the question. The question. How do we balance tradition and our legacy with innovation? And I've done a lot of research on this over the years, research on change management, research on How do we preserve things that we want to preserve? And so the exercise starts there. What are we proud of? What are the things that we want to keep? Because no matter the industry, whether it's legacy institutions in arts and culture or legacy media, for example, or any other kind of industry, I pretty much never think the answer is we got to burn it all down. You know, usually the answer is no, there are things about our past that we're proud of. There are things about our tradition that we are happy to carry forward and want to carry forward. So identifying those things is first. What do we want to preserve? And then from there, we get to start looking at, okay, now let's talk about the pain points, the challenges, the friction points, the things that aren't serving us anymore. And how do we start to dissect those issues and solve for those challenges?

I guess it does take quite a lot of courage, right? Because the jobs you've had, no, leading when stakeholders might be resistant to change and all of the things you were able to accomplish. How did you do it? And where do you think that courage came from?

Where I'll work backwards, the courage, I don't know. I think just a place of deep frustration and satisfaction, perhaps. Also, the courage, I would say, probably came from a less snarky answer is seeing the data, which is also part of the first answer to the first question you asked, which is how, how did I, how do I push forward in organizations? And I have always been a very data-driven person, and that has served me well. I learned very early on in my career that my opinion is not going to get me very far. My, whether I, especially early in the career where you're younger, you're in your 20s, you're trying to speak up, lead up, and it's just really hard to get buy-in if it's just I was some 20-something kid, out and rough, right? And so I learned those lessons and learned that, Aubrey, you gotta come prepared, you gotta make the case, these things that we all learn in our careers. And the data in particular has been so helpful to do that. And so there is a lot of data in arts and culture. We don't always tend to look at it, going back to like, we tend to revert to our art or our gut feel or things like that. And, but being able to bring that forward has always served me well in terms of making the case. And then just the other thing I would add to that in terms of how to push for change is I've learned over the years, and the research on change management bears this out too, which is that change, effective change, I should say, pretty much never happens in huge sweeping, you know, swing for the fences type efforts. It usually, effective change usually happens in small doses and That is such a great way to implement change. We're going to do a baby step. We're going to do a test. I do so many things in my work and with the organizations I work for and with where I'm like, let's just test it. Let's just do a little test. And that's such easier language to kind of rally around. Yeah, let's— we're not carving this in stone. Let's just see how this works for us. And then iterate, right? And this is something— I mean, there's so many Silicon Valley people in your audience that like iteration, test, measure. These are things you all do all the time. And It's the same thing in any kind of management function, I would venture to say.

Wow. So what was kind of your approach to align the board, staff, and performers around one vision? To me, it sounds like herding cats, but how were you able to do it so successfully?

I would say herding cats isn't completely wrong. I mean, I think, and I don't mean to speak ill of anyone, but I will say the biggest exercise I've ever had in managing up in my life is managing up to a board, being in the executive director chair and managing up to a board, you know, you have 20, 30, 40 at larger institutions, sometimes up to 70 people on a big orchestra or any big legacy arts institution board. And so managing up to that group is, is quite the challenge. And so how do you do it? I would say, particularly at the California Symphony, when I began there, and this is not so different than a lot of arts organizations these days, The financial challenges were so severe that one of the reasons I took the job is because the board chair, who was my day-to-day supervisor, said, "We know, we know we can't keep doing things the same way." That set that orchestra apart from a lot of others. Some are just so resistant to change. At least this— yeah, there he is, Bill Armstrong. He knew something had to change. He didn't exactly know what. He had some ideas. And so that was what really attracted me to the role where he gave me kind of a proverbial blank check to say, please come change some things. So a lot of, I think a lot of it starts there. Like, what is the common pain point? We can rally around two things. We can rally around the things we love, that's the previous conversation of what's working, what's the tradition we want to preserve. We can rally around that. And I believe we can rally around what are the pain points? What are the challenges that we can all agree on that we know we have got to find a different way because We know what the graph looks like. Without outside intervention, that's going to continue. And so to be able to say we agree on that, that's the beginning of the herding cats, I would say.

That is really quite fascinating because I believe you started in Seattle, right? In Seattle Opera, and then you mentioned California Symphony, San Francisco Conservatory of Music, on and on and on. But I guess, how did you communicate change without creating fear? I feel like most people are afraid of change.

That's why they always resist that?

Yeah, that's a great question. I, I think that again, making change in small steps, that helps alleviate some fear. Um, I am very dogmatic about— I said bringing the data, that helps. Like, let's, like, let's make this fact-based, try to get out of our emotional brain and into this, um, I don't know, more fact-based, you know, plane for conversation, that tends to help. And I think also in some ways the fear of what happens if we don't change needs to be greater. If we don't change, we're gonna have to close our doors. For a lot of arts organizations, that's the reality. And so I don't want to be fearmongering, but—

Yes.

When that's the other option, like, okay, let's, let's pick something else and try that instead.

Yes. Wow. Yeah, that is quite a stark contrast because when you took over the California Symphony, it was struggling quite a bit. What were your first 90 days like?

First 90 days, I thought I was coming in with a very typical 90-day plan, and when I arrived, like I said, I knew the challenge. I knew there were financial challenges as I just shared the story about my board chair, I didn't quite know how bad. And when I got there, I learned we could not make payroll at the end of the month. So 90-day plan goes a little out the window because I was like, you gotta fundraise and you gotta start fundraising yesterday. And so the first 30 days, at least 30 to 60 days, like that first week, I remember I'm meeting with the orchestra's biggest donor and she had, this is a good story, so I'm gonna share it. They, she had felt like she was being treated as a piggy bank. Essentially the orchestra kept coming back to her. Can you write us a check? Can you Can you save us? Can you da da da da da? And, you know, she mentioned, she's like, I don't like feeling like a piggy bank. And I was like, of course not, right? And so I was not going to come to her and ask for money, but I think it's important for any fundraiser, you know, you always kind of have that antenna up of like, what is the donor actually motivated by? And, you know, is it the education programs? Is it the wonderful performances on stage? Is it something else? And so for this donor, it turned out She kind of said offhand, she's like, well, I wanted my last gift to be a matching challenge. So boom. And Tena says she wants her giving to inspire giving in others.

Yes.

So it's like, fine. So in my brain, you know, the mental Rolodex, it's like, we're not talking about education programs right here. We're not talking about the orchestra. I was like, oh. And so I said, you know, the research shows matching challenges can be really effective. At some point I would love to be able to do a matching challenge. And she said, okay, starting now, you can do it. She's like, start over. She was like, you know, and I was like, okay, give me 30 days. Give me 30 days. Like, let me go out and raise some money. And so that was the beginning of the turnaround where just being attuned to the donor motivation and we did it. We, I think we raised $100,000 in that next 30 days, which she then matched, which was definitely a lifeline for that organization. And then from there, you know, of course we were able to do a lot more and just to put up just to put a bow on this story, over the years, she was so pleased with how we were then able to steward her gift and her money that eventually she became a 7-figure donor for the organization. I was able to solicit her for a multi-7-figure endowment gift later. And so it just started with that, you know, that first conversation. So anyways, 30, 60, 90 days, I don't know. It was quite the whirlwind.

That is really fascinating. What were some of the hardest decisions you had to make early on at the California Symphony?

The best what decision? I'm sorry.

Some of the hardest decisions.

Oh, other decisions. Well, I think this is true for any industry and any leader coming in. You're evaluating staff and talk about what do we want to carry forward and what doesn't serve us anymore. Who's on the team is always a part of that. So a lot of that had to happen. Simultaneous to all of that, there's an orchestra of 75 people that I was like, I gotta meet all of them. And so just a lot of meeting others, so much outreach to donors, trying to introduce yourself as the new face.

Yes.

Wow. And then the board, the whole board component too, trying to meet all of them too. So yeah, a lot of things, I think, firing at once, those, those early days, man.

So you were able to double the audience and nearly quadruple the donor base, which is just incredible. What was the turning point, you think?

For me, the turning point was doing some user experience research. There's kind of two things that I'll hit on here. So, you know, we can talk in broad strokes about declining audiences for arts organizations, but a statistic that I had heard at that point— this is 2014 we're talking about— and at that point, the statistic I'm about to share, I think was already about 5 years old, but this comes from the League of American Orchestras. It's a membership support organization for orchestras, and they had published published a study in partnership with, I forget, one of the big, I can't remember which consultant, but one of the big ones that found that up to 90% of first-time attendees at symphony orchestras never come back.

Wow.

And I just remember thinking, this is so striking. 90% of our new users, to use Silicon Valley language, and I was like, aren't returning. This, to me, this was like code red. And so I ran the numbers at my own organization and it was close to that. It was like, instead of a 10% retention retention rate. I think we were like at 12% or something. And I was like, wow, okay, that's bad. You don't have to work in the arts to know a 12% retention rate isn't great. So, so from there, that led me to these two different things I wanted to share. One is we went down a path of a user experience research project. I did, at the time, I did not even know what UX research, like, I didn't know what it was called. I didn't know that's what we were doing, but basically that's what we did and went to our newcomer audiences and asked them questions about all different types of the experience or all different facets of the experience from what it's like to buy a ticket online and what that experience was like to when they come and arrive and find parking to during the performance itself. And basically, long story short, we heard a lot of pain points. While your website reads like inside baseball, while there's so much technical language and jargon, we're talking about an orchestra, not a tech company. There's so much technical language and jargon. I don't actually know really what I'm looking for. All kinds of this type of feedback. I don't know what to wear. It turns out they don't want— it's not like everybody's like, oh, millennials, Gen Z, they want to dress down. No, they said, I want to fit in. They're like, I want to— whatever the expectation is, I want to fit in. So you put all this together and it turns out that the emotions they were feeling, particularly these newcomers, were intimidation. Feelings of I don't belong here, feel, you know, feelings of I'm confused. Now, anybody in any industry knows, and even anybody on a human level knows, these are not great feelings when you're trying to build loyalty with a product. And so from there, we were able, you know, you identify the challenges, then you can start to solve them, right? We said that already. So we were able to start solving for some of them. Simultaneous to that, this one's faster to share, but the other thing that we started working on was a retention plan. And I had had success in my past jobs really focusing on patron retention. So I came in knowing a lot of what I wanted to do to build that plan. But everybody says in the arts, we need new audiences. And it was a real mind shift to say, no, we're getting new audiences. We need a plan to keep them coming back. How do we get them to come again and then subscribe? And then ultimately later on—

That is just, just, just amazing. But was there maybe one thing you had to stop stop doing that kind of made the biggest difference back then?

We had to stop a couple things. All right. We had to stop upselling too much too soon. Anybody listening, you can tell me if you've ever experienced this. You go to a performance somewhere, insert artistic discipline, art form, and then what happens? Two days later, you get a call soliciting for a donation, right? And we realized, wow, we cannot upsell too much too soon like that. It's really, it's kind of cutting off the relationship at the knees. We're asking, the analogy we often use in the industry is we're asking somebody to get married after the first date.

Yes.

And we said, okay, we got to stop doing that. And in fact, we learned we also have to stop upselling them to buy a subscription. You came once, you want to buy a season ticket? No. Okay, you came once, what's the smallest baby step Come back again, come back again. So stop upselling too much too soon. We had to stop, going back to the user experience research, using vocabulary words like you're a music major on our website.

Yes.

Defining terms when we do use them. We changed how we wrote our program notes, like in the program book. Somebody said in the UX research, wow, your program book reads like a wine description. I was like, well, that's the most Northern California comment I've ever heard, but okay.

Yes.

But you get the idea. So So I stopped doing a fair amount of things, I think.

And you kind of mentioned that earlier, you've used a lot of data. How did data influence your decision, right, versus just intuition?

I think data in so many ways is— I don't want to say it's the only thing that influences my decision, but I don't like taking risks, actually. People, you know, people— Steve Jobs, the classical music, you're so innovative. I don't, I do not like taking risks. And I think there's studies on the whole that I can't remember if women are more risk-averse than men or not, but anyways, for me, I want to bet on a winning horse, you know? And so for me, when I see the data, and particularly when I see data that's replicated, whether it's within my industry or a similar study in another industry, I love consuming what's working outside the arts. And then, I mean, it's the whole theme of the book, like what's working outside the arts, how do we apply it? Anyways, all to say, data for me is, it just reduces the risk factor instead of what Aubrey thinks or one person's experience.

That's really powerful. And some people may ask, why in the world do you have Steve Jobs of classical music on the podcast when we should be focusing maybe on the military or tech? But the thing is, leadership is leadership no matter which industry you are in. What you just described sounds like a cybersecurity transformation to me. Same exact principle, clarity, data, and then the execution. So which leads me to your number one bestselling book. Let's talk about this, Run It Like A Business. Why did this book have to be written?

Really in response to the challenges arts organizations were facing coming out of the pandemic. And so in 2020, as everybody knows, we went on lockdown, and for performing arts organizations and exhibit-based organizations, this is detrimental. We could not open our doors, we couldn't have audiences. And coming out of the pandemic, so many of you, I'm sure you've heard this, that the pandemic, yes, it was a disruptor, but more than anything, it was an accelerant. There were so many trends that were accelerated by the pandemic. And if you're looking at a graph of declining audiences, like it really, really accelerated that. And when concert halls opened back up again, everyone was seeing on the whole, I think like 60 so percent of their audience returning. And that's devastating for an organization that already was on the decline. And so I wrote the book really in response to, okay, in today's day and age, our time now, what do we do to get our audiences back, to grow our audiences, to stop the bleeding financially? And how do we instead grow? How do we, again, generate the revenue we need? And I believe in growth. You keep sharing the wonderful statistics of the growth that the orchestra I managed. And yes, I just really believe that it is possible. I've seen it now with many other organizations I've worked with. And so that's why I wrote the book, to say that we can do it, and we can do it without sacrificing the art. That last part of the subtitle, it doesn't mean we sell out, it doesn't mean we turn into some commercial, capitalistic, I don't know, some kind of whatever that is, you know. It's like, no, no, no, no, we can honor the parts of the tradition we love and optimize the business around it.

Well, that is really powerful. So what does Run It Like a Business really mean to you?

For me, the way I organized the book, there's 10 different chapters. Each chapter is a different strategy, kind of borrowed from the business world or the for-profit world, and then writing how do we apply that to our work in the arts. So for example, very quickly, there's a chapter on the subscription economy. The subscription economy globally is around 20% of all of our credit card transactions go to our subscriptions and memberships, the Netflix, the Amazon, the, you know, whatever else, everything these days that comes on subscription. In the arts, we say that the subscription model's on the decline. Our subscriber base is declining. And some people even say, oh, the subscription model is dead. And I'm like, I don't think Netflix thinks the subscription model is dead, you know? And so that question is the whole basis of one of the chapters. So, and I really went into what's the difference? Why is this model thriving for many, many other sectors? And yet in the arts we say it's dying. Well, it turns out we're doing some things really differently from what our modern day best practices for subscriptions and memberships. So I wrote about how do we change that? So every chapter's like that of looking outside the arts, bringing those strategies into what we do.

Amazing. Because you've also said, you mentioned that earlier in the podcast too, we don't have an audience problem. We have a retention problem. Can you unpack that for leaders in pretty much any industry?

I think, I mean, in pretty much every industry, I think it is cheaper to retain a patron, retain a customer than it is to acquire a new one.

Right.

And so there's a couple of different analogies I use for this. I used to say, you know, it's like a leaky bucket, right? We say we need new audiences. Just fill that bucket with more audiences. Well, what happens? We keep leaking them out. You already heard me We say up to 90% of them don't come back. For first-year subscribers, that's another big hurdle, a leaky bucket area. The statistic is about 50% of first-year season ticket holders don't renew. They leak right back out. And so it's like, okay, fix the leaky bucket. That's one analogy. Now I say on the other side, when you do do that, when you do plug those holes, have a retention plan.

Yes.

It's like compound interest because yeah, of course you get the revenue when somebody comes for a second time, but it's the future revenue. Eventually, if they come twice within 12 months, The data in our sector tell us they're a top prospect to become a season ticket holder.

Wow.

Once we get them to renew that first year of season ticket, being a season ticket holder, once they're a second year subscriber or longer, they're very loyal, like 85, 90% sometimes.

Wow.

And then they're, yeah, exactly. And then they're your top prospect to become a donor. And so piecing this together, this patron journey, audience journey, like you talk about spinning up revenue. Wow. That really starts to spin up revenue, like compound interest, like a flywheel effect.

Wow.

So from your book then, how should leaders rethink customer experience in today's environment?

Should they? What's the question? I'm sorry.

How should leaders rethink customer experience?

I think it goes back to how do our customers feel? When I started learning about user experience research and learning that it's not just asking customers to solve your problems, You know, they say if— I don't know if you've ever heard this, Bob— like when people say like if Henry Ford had asked people what do they want, they would have said faster horses. Like they couldn't even conceptualize this better invention or better way to serve their needs. And so when I learned that about user experience research, that it's about asking people how they feel, because how you feel is your truth. And when I started hearing that people were intimidated or felt like they don't belong or you know, felt like going to reading the program book was like reading a dry wine description. You know, I thought, oh my gosh, I thought, no wonder up to 90% of them aren't coming back. I also don't like going to places where I feel unwelcome and intimidated and like I don't belong, right? And so I think, I know for me that was the game changer, understanding this is how people feel. And then once those, um, those feelings were unearthed, I was— for me, it just unlocked things where I was like, we can start to solve for that. That I think we can work toward.

Wow. It's again, very fascinating how you've been able to use data. But what do you think organizations are getting wrong about their users or customers?

What do I think they're getting wrong? I think something organizations get wrong is that that we need new audiences. I already said that. We're actually pretty great at getting new audiences. New people come every single year. Yes. I think, oh, here's another one we haven't talked about. I think organizations, arts organizations get wrong that the programming is the solution. So, so often in our industry, you know, we know what sells. We know Beethoven is always gonna do well at the box office. We know movie concerts are always going to do well at the box office, which I get it. It's so cool to go and you see the movie on the big screen and the orchestra plays the soundtrack live. Like, that's cool. I get it. What happens though is that we tend to think the programming, the repertoire is the path to our solution. And so we should do more Beethoven or more movie concerts or whatever. And there's two problems with that. One, it doesn't solve for any of those other pain points and feelings I mentioned. Two, it doesn't solve anything toward retention that I mentioned. And three, it really, it silos our programming, and I think it blocks some of the mission we have, which is to push forward new art, to bring new artists, new composers, to play works that are lesser known. I think that's part of our artistic mission, and if we're only playing Beethoven and Harry Potter in concert, then we've missed the mark on that. And so I think I think only focusing on programming as a solution, I don't think that's gonna get us there. And so for me, that's really important when we talk about optimizing the rest of the business to keep looking beyond the product itself.

Wow.

The product is not the problem.

So true. In your book, you also mentioned quite a few metrics. What are maybe a couple of metrics that every leader should track regardless of industry?

Regardless of industry? Well, I go back to retention. I think, you know, new user retention, first-time buyer is what we would say in the arts for said buyer retention. And what else? I would say lifetime value. I don't know if this is like a tricky metric. I don't know if this is like a slippery slope here, but 'cause it's very difficult to measure many, in many cases, lifetime value. But lifetime value for an arts organization can be a lot of money if they're donating to you over the years, if they're eventually in some, the organization's in their will, for example. So I mean, there's just a lot of revenue on the table there. Ah, here's one we've not talked about. So this goes back to the top. We said representation matters. I think we need to be looking at our audience demographic breakdown. There's a whole chapter in the book about this, but it's no secret, probably everybody listening could guess what I'm about to say, which is that arts organizations, particularly our traditional legacy artistic institutions, tend to over-index on white audiences compared to the demographics around us, no matter what community you're in, in this country. And so I'm not one to say diversity for diversity's sake. I'm one to say, let's make the business case for that. When we are more reflective of the world around us, we sell more tickets and we make more money and it funds our art and it grows our audience. Right? So, um, wow. Yeah, that's another one I would mention.

So insightful. And we kind of, uh, mentioned that earlier, but many leaders kind of struggle, right, with money versus mission. So how do you reconcile the two?

Nonprofit is a tax status. That's it. It does not mean you can't make money. It definitely doesn't mean you can't serve as many people as possible. Like, that's actually in a lot of our mission statements. Yes. So it's just a tax status. That's all it means. It doesn't mean we have to have a scarcity mindset. Nonprofit doesn't mean that we can't be smart and strategic about the work we do. So, I get really fired up about this. There's a lot we can do with a nonprofit in our name.

Yeah, I think that's really quite remarkable in your book, just because you're nonprofit doesn't mean you shouldn't be profitable, which is, I mean, it's really kind of simple. And I think most people, they kind of get it. But usually when I think of nonprofit, we feel like, well, But actually, even if you make a profit, you can reinvest it into your mission, right?

Of course.

Wow. That is powerful. So in that case, why is revenue actually a leadership responsibility?

Without it, we don't get to do what we do. We don't get to fund our performances. We don't get to pay our artists, not just living wages, but what they deserve, professional artists, particularly at a symphony orchestra. Orchestra. Here's a statistic I love to share. It is more difficult to graduate college with a music degree and win a full-time job in an orchestra, so a top-tier orchestra, more difficult statistically to do that than to get drafted into the NBA. So our artists are so incredibly talented, and you know, I want to compensate that, right? And so, um, and then our offstage talent too. There's a whole thing to be said about what are we paying our offstage talent, and often, sadly, it's not very competitive. Competitive. And then we lose excellent talent to other industries that do pay better, right? And so, and I'm focusing on wages because this is a very labor-intensive industry. It takes people to do what we do to make the art on stage. It takes just as many people to do what we do off stage. So I just give that as an example of why this matters.

Wow, that is so powerful. So for leaders who are listening right now, when they read your book, what are maybe a couple of actions they should take, let's say, tomorrow?

I say, I mean, there's a lot of things we've already talked about here. It's a lot of diagnosing, like, what's the smallest step I can take? It goes back to change is not made by being a bull in a china shop. Change is not made in these sweeping, swing for the fences initiatives. Instead, I would say the takeaway is, I always say this, it's a marathon, not a sprint, right? So what are the, if you read, what are the 1 or 2 things that really have your brain percolating or stimulated? And it's like, okay, let's talk about those things. Let's bring those things as our next action items. And there's so many examples that I give in the book of that are specific and tactical and hopefully can help stimulate those ideas.

So powerful. And this relates very well with cybersecurity. When you take over a new program, you kind of look for those low-hanging fruit, right? You're talking about about lowest cost, highest impact change that you can immediately make within the organization. That is so wise. So let's talk about innovation for just a moment. How do you see artificial intelligence and data analytics transforming audience engagement these days?

Oh, I love this question because I mean, the AI question is everywhere, first of all, but for arts organizations, You know, I think some people have a fear, not just in the new technology and how do I engage with it, but some people, you know, is it gonna replace artists' jobs? And I don't think we're there yet. That's not my concern of the day, but I do love AI in terms of, you just heard me say like, these jobs are not always well compensated. We are understaffed on the whole, often underpaid. And I'm like, AI can help us with that. For like, you want more hours in the day. I mean, that's available to us right now. You wanna automate more things so that you can have better customer service at scale, for example. AI can help us with that. So there are so many use cases of AI now today that weren't even really readily available a year or two years ago for arts organizations to use, implement, adopt that I'm like, this is a game changer. There's not a lot of ways we can create like massive ways we can create efficiency for our teams.

Yes.

Until kind of right now. So I'm a big fan. It saved me in my own business too. I mean, I, I talk all day about just like basic uses of AI and how, what a great tool it is for us. For us.

Now, you've also talked about digital being an appetizer. How should leaders think about digital strategy today?

I always say digital is not like its own thing over here that we kind of have to do. The way I write about it in the book is to say our digital drives the analog experience. We, if we're doing it right, we want our digital offerings to drive people to our analog products. And the business comparison I make for this in the book is so many of these streaming giants we know today, you know, Apple is not making Apple TV+ because they just want to give us like digital content. They're making Apple TV+ so that we stay in the ecosystem and we want to buy more MacBooks and phones and AirPods and all that kind of stuff. Disney wants people to go to the parks. Disney wants people to go to their box office. Disney wants us to buy more superhero costumes and princess dresses. Both of those companies have been very public about their digital, particularly their streaming digital offering, is not bringing in the revenue they want, yet they continue to do it. And I think it's because of the strategy that it keeps—

Wow.

Digital content of any kind, not just streaming, if done well, keeps the brand top of mind, keeps you as a user engaged in their ecosystem, or even as a fan in their ecosystem. And we want all of those things at our arts organizations too. And then the last thing I'll say that arts organization, any brand, but I think arts organizations in particular have a huge opportunity with our digital content is to educate.

Yes.

A lot of successful content is about, you know, a lot of us when we're scrolling, we do wanna learn. Most of us don't really want the rage bait, right? And so a lot of us where we do engage is, you know, when we learn something. And I think that's just a huge, huge opportunity for arts organizations.

Well, if you had to pull your crystal ball and looking into the future, let's say in the next 5 to 10 years, what does the future of experience-driven organization look like?

I think for organizations that really put the customer experience at the center of what they're doing, they will grow. There will be a bifurcation. I think the ones that make that shift to say, historically we have served the art and the art was the highest thing that we championed. And I'm not saying going back to the top where we were talking about what do we want to care forward. I'm not saying get rid of that. The art is what we do the best. We've been working at that, perfecting that product for literally hundreds of years. We're pretty good at it on the whole, the art piece. So, okay, carry that forward. And also, let's not just center the art alone. Let's center the customer experience, the people we're serving through that art. And when we do that, when organizations do that, they will see growth, you know, more retention, revenue that follows, all of those things that we've been talking about this whole time.

Yeah, let's go back on diversity because you emphasize representation. Why is who's in the room so critical to leadership success?

Why? I'm sorry, why is who's in the room?

Yes.

Well, if we're going back to the idea of how do we, you know, a lot of arts organizations ask how do we diversify our audience? Like, I think on the surface everybody wants to be more inclusive, wants to serve more people. These are great things. Who doesn't want that? That. So then, you know, how becomes the question. And I was saying earlier, programming alone is not the solution, but often that's the attempted solution. Let's do the Día de los Muertos concert, let's do Porgy and Bess at the Opera for Black History Month, or whatever. And these are not bad programs, these are wonderful pieces of music, wonderful, I think, initiatives to spearhead. And also, that's not solving the problems of audience retention. Those audiences come for those culturally specific concerts and then don't come to other programming. So again, programming alone is not going to be the solution. So instead, it goes to your question of who's making the choices, who's in the room, who's at the table. And when we have a more diverse staff that is more reflective of the communities around us, guess what? We're going to start making different decisions about who's programmed, who's brought on stage, what are the guest artists we contract, what are the vendors we contract, what are, you know, and it just, it— that is true in any sector. Who is in the room makes a difference in how these decisions are made.

So what advice then would you have for leaders listening right now who are trying to build a more inclusive, high-performing teams?

One of my favorite studies on this, and maybe many of you listening know this, but when I first learned that the biggest indicator of a high-performing team is not IQ, is not where somebody went to school, is not not whatever other credentials they have. It's psychological safety. When I learned that, I mean, that just changed everything. And I am a huge believer in what I now call the Spider-Man principle of management. Give people great autonomy, and with great autonomy comes great responsibility.

And—

or what's the Spider-Man quote? With great— I'm sorry, with great power comes great responsibility. So give people a lot of autonomy, give them power, try to create as best I know how a psychologically safe place where new ideas can be brought forward and not shut down because we've always done it this other way. When we try to create places like that, for me, the expectation is quite high along with it is what I'm trying to say. Like if that's what, if that is the power I'm giving, then, then I expect results. I expect your results to be quantifiable and measurable and all these things that I think another are also in the category of the business world. Does these kinds of things, but you start putting that together. And I think that that's at least the beginning, I believe, of how to build a high-performing team.

That's really fascinating. We have about 10 minutes left. So let me go into the last segment where I'll try to get into your mindset and see what has helped you be successful. Actually, before I do, we have a question from the audience. Daniel says, for leaders who are still stuck in a scarcity mindset, what's the first audience or data-driven move move you'd have them make on Monday morning?

This is like my actual real Monday morning, Daniel. Okay, so here's what I'm thinking in my head. I'm like, we have to help somebody move from the mindset of like, we have to cut— like, this tends to be the solution. We have to cut our budget, we have to cut expenses, and we have to find a way to move them out of that to know we can grow. And so I go back to, I go back to the data, especially in this example of cutting a budget, for example, you know, everybody, and everybody tends to think, you know, if your budget's not balancing, you know, cut the fat out of the budget. Well, at arts organizations, what tends to happen is a version of that, you know, we cut the marketing budget, we cut staff positions, and that's a short-term solution that only gets, that might help you balance your budget, budget until the end of the fiscal year. Then the fiscal year starts over again, and then guess what? All the other costs went up. So now you got to cut again. And so trying to help somebody break out of that, to say, like, you know, cutting or this scarcity mindset, it's like a death spiral. You just cannot cut your way to growth. I think that's, I think that's true in almost any industry. But, um, so instead, just trying to think with compassion there's some reason why they're set in that way. And this is a part of change management we haven't talked about yet, which is, you know, the barriers people have to resistance are usually very deep. You know, if I change the way we write our program notes to make it more approachable, that devalues the information I've worked so hard to acquire over my life, for example. Once I started realizing like, wow, Aubrey, you have got to approach change management with love and compassion and even for your colleagues, that seems so dense or something, you know, it's like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, there's a reason, there's a deep-seated reason, because most people do want our organizations to grow. So some version of that, the data combined with compassion, combined with a version of love and understanding for our colleagues. I think that's where I would start on Monday morning.

That is quite, quite powerful. I guess the older I get, the more I feel like really leadership is all about love and caring. And, uh, that's this way you can really make a difference. So the, the first question I want to ask you for the last segment is, what do you believe is the, or one of the greatest lessons you have ever learned, whether it's in life, in leadership, or just in general?

Oh, greatest lessons. Um, I think it's maybe that people people want to succeed, which maybe sounds so obvious when I say it out loud right here, but just right on the heels of the last question, which maybe is influencing this answer, but, you know, I just used to think, like, bang my head against the wall, why don't they want to change? Why don't they want to do it differently? Don't they see the writing on the wall? Don't they see, right? And the answer is nobody wants an arts organization to die. I just don't think there are people on this planet that are like, oh yeah, they I shouldn't be here. And so trying to figure out like, that's a big disconnect. So where does the disconnect lie? I think is where my mind goes on this.

Quite insightful. When you look back through your career, all of the jobs you've had and successes you've had so far, why do you think you are so successful? What's the secret of your success, you think?

All right, here we go, Bob. I'm not that innovative. I look at what's happening in other industries, cybersecurity, Silicon Valley, you name it, and I say, oh, they've solved that challenge before. They figured out their subscription model. They figured out how to grow their customer base. How do I apply that to what we do? And that's what I do. I copy and paste. And, um, and then it works because this idea— I said I don't like risk-taking. It's been vetted, tested, authenticated elsewhere. I copy it. So there you go.

Oh, that is— thank you for being so vulnerable. That makes a lot of sense.

I have left coach season.

So I know leaders are learners. What are you learning these days?

I'm learning that things don't always happen on the timeline I want them to happen. I think that that's just a perennial lesson for me. Yeah, everything we're talking about, it's just not always as fast as we want.

Yes. Yeah, I guess sometimes life has to teach us to be more patient. Okay. And we talk about your successes, but what about failure? How has failure shaped your life?

Yeah, I think we learn by doing. And I think I think one of the reasons I'm a big fan of iteration is because you can have small, call them failures, and you can learn from them and the stakes aren't so high. And again, for somebody who's pretty risk-averse, that sounds good. Yes. So there's that. And then, you know, bigger failures. What do I, what do I say? Again, we learn by doing, we learn by putting ourselves out there. We learn by trying new things.

Yes.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I hate failure. I hate failure as somebody who tries to be a high-achieving person, but I've had to learn, you know, know, sometimes it's part of it. It can't be perfect.

Yes, so true. Okay, uh, if you could, um, have a dinner with 3 people of your choice— it could be alive, dead, or even fictitious characters— who would you choose to have dinner with and why?

Oh my gosh, um, I feel like my college application asked this question, like who Who would I say? I don't even know. I think, you know, I remember this college application, I put Rosa Parks. Talk about courage. I just, for my whole life since learning about her at a young age, I was like, yes. Okay. So we'll say her again. Maybe we got to throw Steve Jobs in there so I can ask him some questions so I can be like, understand if people said the good Steve version of Steve Jobs or the bad version when they said I was like him.

The good version for sure. You know, better than one who changed all types of industries. It's just amazing.

Yeah.

Oh man.

And who else? I don't know.

I found the video. I think it was in the 1970s, maybe 1973 or '75. He was actually speaking about our world today, about what looked like artificial intelligence and streaming and all of that way, way back, back then. Just amazing. And then he pretty much helped bring it all to pass before he passed away, but incredible. Incredible. So one more person.

Oh my gosh. Okay. I think on the same theme, I'm going to say Sheryl Sandberg, because she's the other one I've been said, I'm like the Sheryl Sandberg of the symphony. And I have long been a fan of hers and her work in terms, talk about representation in terms of pushing that conversation forward.

Absolutely. All right. We love to read books here, and I see that you had already recommended a couple of books. I think it was on LinkedIn. What about this one, Love Work?

Yeah. Oh, this brings together some of what we were talking about a moment ago. It's just about how do we find not just our zone of genius, but how do we just find things that motivate, deeply fulfill us, and how do we bring that out in others? And this idea of the that we are a team. We have got to, in terms of building high-performing teams, we have got to find how to bring others along and forward and help them perform at their highest too. Like this idea of, yes, love, love. I know we say music and, or art and business doesn't go together. Love and business, I would say, is a love and work is another one where it's like we might think it's oil and water, but it's not. It's not at all.

Yeah, you definitely show Showed us the way. What about this one, Belonging to the Brand?

Okay.

On a very practical level, Mark Schaefer has written several great marketing books. This one is about building community, I believe. And that is just such a meaningful topic right now. I think he was, that book's a few years old. I think it was ahead of his time in terms of the meaning of community in our work.

All right. Then the last one I have is When Women Lead by Julia Bolster.

You know, when women lead, nothing bad happens. That book is just filled with great stories of women who have just crushed it. And that's a book I want to read any day.

Since we have a musician on deck, what is maybe a song or a book or a movie that would be your life's theme or anthem?

Life theme or anthem? Oh my gosh. I should have prepared for this question. Oh, okay. The one that's been on repeat a lot lately is the Whitney Houston/Kaigo remix of Higher Love. So we need a higher love. I feel like that's very fitting for the conversation that we're kind of ending on here.

Absolutely. Okay. If you had one and only one day to live, what would you have liked your final contribution to be? Oh man.

Well, if my life's work thus far, 20 years plus in, has been working to change the narrative for arts and culture and orchestras, I would say going out saying things changed for the better, our arts able to survive better, serve more people better. I wouldn't be mad about that on my epitaph.

Yeah. And if you had a magic wand, you could solve any problem in the world, what is the one problem you'd like to solve first thing tomorrow morning?

Oh man, the big issues here. Well, the answer that popped into my head was that we would not be so divided, that we would find a way to not— to push past that.

Yeah, true. I think we've never been this divided in my lifetime. I know 9/11 was pretty bad, but I really loved 9/12. I think America has never been so united. It's incredible. But, uh, hopefully we're gonna find our way back there. All right, so if you had the ear of every young man and woman who wants to get into the art and lead like you have, what would you tell them to do first thing tomorrow morning?

I would say learn skills beyond play your instrument well. That is, I think it's a defect of our training. We train up incredible musicians and so many don't understand that there's so much else to being successful as a musician today than playing very, very well.

Sure. All right. We are coming towards the end of the show. So what can we do to add value back to you?

Well, you're so generous. You've got the LinkedIn pulled up there. But yeah, follow me online. That would be wonderful to meet you all and connect with you online @aubreybergauer on LinkedIn, on Instagram, pick your favorite channel. There's my website there, aubreybergauer.com. And if you liked this conversation, I would say pick up my book. The book was really written. You don't, you do not have to be an arts aficionado to enjoy it, to understand what I'm talking about. It was written, hopefully taking my own advice to make these things more approachable.

So really powerful. Is there a question I should have asked you, Aubrey, that I didn't get a chance to ask? Anything else you wanted to talk about today?

No, I, you know, I want to go back to the gratitude question. I just, my heart is full. My heart is full right now.

Fantastic. All right. To end the show, if it's okay, I'm going to do a rapid fire. So don't take too long to think. Actually, before I do that, if you could go back in time and give a piece of advice, I guess, I believe you were about what? 12 years old or so, around here.

Yeah.

Uh, standing at the edge of this incredible career you've had, what would you say to 12-year-old Aubrey?

Oh man, uh, I'm looking at that little girl like with her shoulders, right? Like, it's like the instrument is so overwhelming, my shoulders are raised. I need to say like, calm down, take a breath, it's gonna be okay, girl, you can do it, it's gonna be okay, calm down.

Powerful, powerful. What Well, okay, here's the rapid-fire question. One word that defines great leadership?

Compassion.

Okay. What is a morning routine or practice that keeps you grounded?

A morning routine? Oh God, coffee.

Okay. A book or a quote that changed your life?

A book that changed my life? Oh my gosh. I'm sorry. It's supposed to be rapid fire. I read so many books. I'm trying to think what's the answer to that. I don't know. I mentioned Lean In earlier and Sheryl. Maybe we'll say that. I don't know.

Lean In by Sheryl. Yeah. That is a great one. Thank you. So who inspires you most today?

Other high-achieving people. And I don't mean with a big profile. I mean I mean, anytime, just the other day I was working with somebody who's a contractor on my team and they delivered this excellent piece of work. And I was like, "God, I love that." So that kind of thing really, really gets me jazzed.

Powerful. Okay. Is there a leadership habit that you refuse to compromise on?

Leadership habit I refuse to compromise on? High expectations.

Yes. Yes. Okay. What is the question every leader should ask themselves frequently?

Who am I doing this for? Me, others, in service to the field.

Yeah. I think I know the answer to this one. What did you want to be when you were a kid?

A CEO boss lady of an orchestra.

That's exactly what you did. Fantastic. And 3 adjectives describing you as a child.

Ambitious, talkative, What else? I would say fun-loving. I think as a kid, I was pretty fun-loving.

What about as an adult?

Ambitious. What else? I think now, oh, I don't know. What's the word now? I think curious. I'm way more curious now, I think, than I used to be. And more open, open to the world.

All right, I'd like to end the show on a positive note. So what is one thing you are feeling optimistic about these days?

I think that's, I mean, honestly, that's a hard question in this moment of time we're in. I do feel optimistic for the future of arts and culture. I think we're in a period of great challenge and great financial stress, and I also think that's the inflection point Yes. Where we can, we can, you know, we learn by doing, we can grow from that experience and come out of it.

And definitely your bestselling book is going to help us find the way for sure. Thank you for your contribution. All right. The very last question I have for you. This is the end of the show. What is one word that represents our shared experience on this podcast today? One word.

Oh, fun.

Fun. Good. I am so grateful, Aubrey. Thank you so much for being here. This has been really, really fun. I really, really appreciate your time and your expertise. And wisdom. Thank you.

Thank you, Bob.

Bye. All right, everyone. This is one for the book. Again, follow Aubrey on LinkedIn. So it's Aubrey Burgauer and also her website, AubreyBurgauer.com. And of course, get a copy of the book. And I have it on the notes of the podcast. You can also still get a bunch of bonus material once you buy the book. You register it on our site. All right. I want to let you guys know tomorrow I'm going to be speaking to a veteran, a submarine officer, Lieutenant Rick Gordon. He's going to be here tomorrow and I so look forward to my conversation with him. He's an ecosystem builder, strategist, and mission-driven leader. He's now a tech CEO, so we're going to be talking from submarines to startups. Startup, leading in high-tech environment. And then on Sunday, I will go back and continue our study on the book of Proverbs. This is not a religious study, but we're just going to be focusing on ancient wisdom and leadership lessons from the book of Proverbs, written more than 2,000 years ago, but how it is still relevant today. All right, that is all I have for you, uh, for this podcast, and I hope to see you here tomorrow, uh, with the one and only, uh, Lieutenant Rick Gordon. Hope to see you there. Bye for now.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.