S5:E88🎙️ Live with SMSgt Joseph Groce, Jr., DSL, USAF (Multi Tracks Audio)

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Master Sergeant Joseph. All right, good afternoon everyone. How's everybody doing? Turned it up. Let me just start off by saying thank you, Colonel Schochmeyer, Chief Casey, commanders, chiefs, SELs, LTs, everybody who just came out with shirts, trying to remember, right, for supporting Class 23 Delta. That means a lot for the team. Spouses, thank you. My wife, my beautiful wife, thank you so much. I would not be the man I am without your support. I wouldn't even be a be as far as I am. So today I'm just going to make it real quick, right, this afternoon. I know it's a little bit unorthodox, I'm not standing behind the podium, right? Like, wait, what's going on? This dude's like walking in front of the front thing, what's going on? All right, um, I want to share what 23 Delta actually taught and reminded me. You guys heard those beautiful quotes that each of those class members picked? That's the future leaders of this force and One Space Force. Where you at, bro? Right? And what they taught me was the growth of the spirit, mind of a hustler, heart of a king. When we started off the course, myself and Chief Kane, right, and I thank you Chief Kane for allowing me to even have this opportunity. The biggest thing that they started off on the first week is purpose. Chief, why you do what you do? Sargos, why you do what you do? Instructors, why you do what you do, right? They wanted to know what was purpose. And that is part of the spirit. Air Force will give us everything we need to be the greatest whatever we need to be, right? Ground transportation, BB, that's me, right? They'll give me everything I need to be the best on the LRS skills-wise, but character, that requires purpose, that requires value, that requires hope. That's what builds character. And that's—

character requires purpose, value, and hope. All right, welcome everyone to another very special edition of the leadership and Success Podcast. Before I bring in my guest, as is our custom here, we are going to take just a moment for what we call our moment of gratitude. We want to be grateful for something every single time we meet. And part of the reason is because about 22 service members and veterans commit suicide every day in this country. And we believe it's not possible to be grateful and suicidal at the very same time. So if you would maybe Close your eyes and go to your happy place. For me, it's probably by the beach somewhere. I love to see the ocean and the soft breeze on my cheek. And I really feel happy and really one with my Creator when I am at the ocean. It's so beautiful, the sunshine and— just sublime. So in that place where you are happy, maybe take a deep breath and think about one thing you are grateful for. And right now I am so grateful for all of the mentors I've had throughout my entire career. I joined the Navy 21 years ago as a seaman recruit. That's E-1, that's the lowest rank in the military. And from day one, I didn't know anything at all. About anything about the service, but chiefs, right, E-7, E-8, and E-9 in the Navy really took care of me. They really showed me pretty much everything I know. And later on, even when I became a junior officer in 2007, I became an ensign, and chiefs were still mentoring me all the way up to O-4, Lieutenant Commander. So much so that even when I finally became a senior officer, which is quite an achievement because only 4% of people who join the military end up being O-5 or above. But even then, I still relied on my chief. So I am just so grateful for the chief mess, for all of the E-7, E-8, E-9 from all of the branches of the military out there, because they really run the military. Without them, we are absolutely, absolutely nothing. So such a great privilege and honor to be speaking to an E-8 today, Senior Master Sergeant. So Let me see if I can, uh, introduce him, um, to you guys. So I'm gonna be speaking to a senior master sergeant, Joseph Gross Jr., who also has a DSL, Doctorate of Strategic Leadership. So he is Dr. Joseph Gross Jr. He is a combat-tested US Air Force senior master sergeant, leadership coach, and founder of the Servants Council. Uh, more about that during the interview. Uh, really it's a platform dedicated to developing leaders who serve with high art, with humility, and with purpose. And that's exactly what he was talking about in the introduction video, purpose, art, and humility. With nearly, uh, two decades of service, advanced academic credentials, including a doctorate in strategic leadership, and a passion for servant leadership and emotional intelligence, Drew has impacted hundreds of thousands of leaders across the military and beyond. His philosophy is quite simple, but it is profound. Leadership is not about rank, it is about relationship. And today we're going to be learning why servant leadership is the future of leadership and how to lead beyond authority and build trust-driven influence. All right, so without any further ado, please welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast, Dr. Joseph Gold.

Oh, greetings everybody.

Senior Master Sergeant Joseph Gold Jr., Doctor. How are you doing today, sir?

I'm good. I'm very much humbled by that introduction. I appreciate that, Professor and Coach BZ. Like, that was, that was real dope. Like, wow, okay.

So it is really a great, great pleasure and honor to be speaking to you today. Maybe to get started, what is one thing you are grateful for today?

Uh, so I am extremely grateful for my family, for my kids. Um, that's just one thing that they make me laugh and giggle every day. My daughter just went and took like 20 of her vitamins at once, you know. So all the fun things that come with family, but, but they definitely bring joy to my heart, my kids and my wife. So yeah, I'm very grateful for that.

You better enjoy it because life— it seems like my daughters were born yesterday, but one of them is out of college now and the second one is about to go to college this year. So it's like, uh, it just went by so fast. I mean, I really miss them being young, and— but anyway, it is, it is life. So You just have to get used to it. And what is one thing about you, Senior, that most people may not know when they first meet you?

So when they first meet me, one thing they probably do not know is that I can actually bark like a dog. So I usually introduce myself that way to a unit. I just recently did that with Mountain Home here in Idaho Air Force Base. And yeah, they were all like, whoa.

Yeah.

So we gotta wake up everybody.

Do you mind showing my audience what that sounds like?

Oh yeah, absolutely. That's amazing.

Wow.

Yeah, good bark, a good bark to wake everybody up.

Oh my goodness. In my home we have a little dog, but he barks louder than he looks. I always joke, you know, if it wasn't for him, I'd be the only male in my family. But how did you learn to do that? It's so realistic.

I think we just grew up around a lot of wild dogs. Wow, there's a lot of random dogs. And yeah, um, so around so much animals, I think I just picked it up. Of course DMX is a famous rapper at that time frame too, right? So if you could bark like a dog, you know, those things, those things influence that.

True. So Dr. Gross Jr., for those who meet you for the very first time, who are you beyond the uniform?

Oh man, so that was a great question. It's a very important question. Um, so I would say that for me, beyond this uniform one, I am a follower of, uh, Yeshua Mashiach, or better known as Jesus Christ. Like, really following him, looking at the gospels, what is Christ calling us to do, right? I usually invite folks to that, say, hey, read the word, don't just look at the people, read the word. I'm also a father, so I have 3 beautiful little kids. I have Joseph, who's, uh, 6, Jaila, who's 4, and Judy, who's 1. I'm also married, right? So I've been married for 8 years, uh, with my beautiful wife Kimberly. We've known each other for about 10 years. So it's just a beautiful, beautiful family.

Yes.

And then of course, I am a coach, I'm a mentor, I'm a professor. So I do those things outside of the uniform, just trying to take care of people and, and utilize what I believe God has gifted me with, which is teaching.

Wow.

So I try to utilize that to, to take care of folks, encourage them on the, on the education route, and 'cause I know how powerful that encouragement can be. So.

Wow, that is really powerful. And I know we're gonna be talking about humility and purpose later on, but if you could take us back, let's say you were 19 years old, right? You led vehicle commander in a combat zone. What did that experience teach you about leadership that no classroom ever could?

Could? Oh man, I think that's where everybody wants to know what leadership is, right? Leadership is, can I convince people to die with me on the hill? So whether that's in business or whether that's in military, can I influence individuals? And in that, a classroom can't really teach you how integrity is formed. So what I learned in that, in that situation, is why did they select a 19-year-old kid, 20-year-old kid, to be in this lead vehicle position where you're supposed to lead convoys throughout Iraq? And it came down ultimately to my willingness to be self-sacrificed. Like, I was more than willing to make sure that I— like, there's people who will say, I will give you my life, I will give my life for you. It's another thing to prove it and do it. And when people saw that, I didn't know everything, but I think having that attitude of I am willing to die to keep you guys alive and being teachable allowed for everyone else to surround me and say, hey, this is what you need to do. This is how you contact, this is what you do, right? And competence does play a key part in that, I won't take that away, but it's really character. I think that's what they were looking for. It's like, who— because you can't volunteer for lead vehicle at all, like the instructors select you and then you can volunteer for the position. So in our training, they're paying attention to characteristics that I wasn't aware of, and they're watching, oh, this kid is willing to— and they'll ask, hey, I'll say, yeah, I'll die, I'll keep them alive. I'll do whatever I need to do to get them home alive. Um, so in that, that developed integrity. Integrity develops trust, and then therefore you can influence. So I think that's something that the classroom is going to be very hard to teach. Uh, those who've experienced combat in any format, whether Navy, Army, Marines, Air Force, it's probably ringing with them like, oh yeah, like, I will follow that individual that will die with me, um, and that will die for me. And it develops real relationships from there. So, so that's what I learned in that period.

Yeah, I know you asked, uh, spiritual, and the Bible talks about there is no greater love, no, than a friend who gives his life. Uh, well, I guess that's, that's really maybe part of the reason why I consider anybody who's ever served in any branch of military, even if for just one day, who's worn this uniform I consider them a hero. To me, you don't have to actually go to war, you don't actually have to sacrifice your life, just that you volunteer, right? Because in America we have a completely 100% volunteer military. People choose to join the military knowing that they might potentially put their life on the line for their brother, their sister, to their right and to their left. Where do you think that comes from? Because obviously it's less than, I think, 1-2% of people who join the military. So most people in America do not feel that, that way, or don't have the courage to do so. Where, where do you think that comes from?

Ah, okay, so for me it's going to be a little more personal, but for me, for that dedication to service, one, I come from a history of service. So, uh, my father served in the Navy, he was a Navy rescue. Uh, my grandfather's one of the first Black helicopter pilots in the United States military, point blank. Um, my great-grandfathers and them, they're like, they're attached to Tuskegee Airmen. So this The idea of self-sacrifice has always been there. Um, you add faith elements to that. So I remember before I deployed— you got to be careful what you pray for if you're in this faith, be careful— but I said, hey Lord, let me, let me be a leader. Like, these people are going to have families, they're going to have kids. I'm 19, 20, I don't have a family, I don't have kids. If I die, my parents can pay off their house, they can live in the suburbs, they can be, you know, happy. So So I approached that in prayer and had no idea where that would take me.

Yeah.

So I think that that attitude— so it was, it was literally a history of service with the family and then the faith element that led me to like, hey, this is what I'm here to do. I'm here to serve and I'm here to take care. And of course, I had my own personal reasons of, hey, I want to get education. I want to— I seen that the men I respected growing up, they all had to seem to have this military background. Yes, this foundation and how they communicate, how they talk. So I was like, I'm paying attention to these things. Say, hey, I want that. That's what led me towards the military and then having that attitude of servitude, if you will.

Yeah. Wow, that is really amazing. I'm— I mean, it's just giving me chills even, even now. And I feel like even members of my generation, part of the reason why I serve is because of 9/11, I guess we would say. Love of God and country. And I feel like our values have been, you know, God, country, and family. And part of the reason why I am in the Navy is because of my family. But military life can, can be really, really tough. Do you have hope for the next generation? I know you've been in the military more than 20 years now, so probably going to be retiring soon. What do you think about the next generation of airmen?

They have a challenge. The next generation, not just next generation of airmen, Marines, sailors, Guardians, Coasties, soldiers, they all got a challenge in front of them that we didn't have 20 years ago. So for them, it's going to be character. Like, that's— they're going to be their biggest challenges. How do we do it? It's the same challenge that we had, but I think more so now because of technology, things can be viewed relatively quickly. Um, you know, information can be sent relatively quickly. You know, we didn't have Facebook or LinkedIn or things like that 20 years ago, so like I had to wait around for a satellite phone, right? Or when I'm not on the road, send the email. Like, technology has, has changed the game. So they have a challenge of character, of upholding character, of developing character. Um, when I say upholding character, really upholding character when the chips, the chips are going to count.

Yes.

And do I run? Do I stay? Do I fight? What do we do after? Because no one talks about after-action report and how do we, how do we deal with the mental and spiritual things on the side of that. They're gonna have a huge— so, so that's my hope. Any Airman that I get in contact with or any, any service member that I get in contact with, it's like, how am I helping them develop that if they're going to stay in this? Because It's not easy. It's not easy.

So if you had the ear of every junior enlisted and junior officer listening to us right now, let's say I give you a couple of minutes, what would you tell them as far as advice for them, as far as doing this?

Yes. So I would tell them, for the most part, when it comes to doing this, one, you got to know your purpose. You got to know your why. So one of the first things I ask any officer, young officer, or any young enlisted when they come in my office and they're introducing themselves is, why'd you do this? Because you're gonna have to remember it. You're going to have to remember how hard things are going to get. It's going to be very easy, uh, for entertainment to take you away from that purpose, and then you find yourself demotivated. So one, what's— you know, why'd you do this? And then two, how are you— who is holding you accountable to continue to move forward? Like, who is your support group? Because you're gonna need both. You're gonna— I don't do 20 years in the game, senior master sergeant, doctorate degree, start on business. Like, all those things sound wonderful, but I have a huge supporting cast, a huge supporting cast of my family, my wife, my parents, my sister, brothers and sisters, and wearing the uniform from John Dixon to Cully. Like, there's just a whole supporting cast to include my professors, like It's a huge supporting cast. So you can't do this alone. You got to know what— who your supporting cast is, and you got to know your purpose. And then being able to have the discipline to move forward, and you can get the opportunities from the military. It's hard, but there are some opportunities, I would argue, that will change the game if you, if you stay focused.

So wow, that is really powerful. Know your why and find your tribe. Wow, so powerful. Was there a defining moment for you when you realize that leadership is about people, not necessarily about position? Yes.

Um, so I got back from that deployment, I found myself in hot water. Well, let me rephrase. Before I got myself in hot water with the commander— so there was 10 of us that came back. I was the youngest, um, so youngest in age and youngest in rank. Uh, the commander, the day after we get back, tells us to write like all the horrible things that we did, that we saw, because he wanted to publicize it for the base. And everybody looks at A1C Gross, right? So I'm E3, like, hey, Gross, are you— because you have the most miles, you guys had the most things that happened. And I decided to let the commander know, unfortunately, at the time, because I didn't communicate well. I didn't know what I was dealing with. But I told the commander no. And the commander looked at me and said, what do you mean? I said, until you experience and do what we just did, I'm not saying anything. And everyone pushed their papers back. So this includes E-4s and E-5s.

Yes.

They all push their paper back like they would. So it made me realize, oh, leadership isn't about your position, it's about the people. Um, what, what further made me understand that it is about people was then I found myself in hot water with that commander, get myself in front of a board. Unfortunately, Article 15 is what they're looking at, kicking me out is what they're looking at, because obviously I, I put a target on my back. And I had a group of tech sergeants and master sergeants, so E-6s and E-7s, that put their rank like on the line for me to stay in the Air Force. So long story short, I am feeling extremely shameful and guilty because they had to do that to keep me in the Air Force. They're over at the smoke pit and I go to them to apologize for my behavior, like, hey, you know, I'm still trying to work things. And after I apologize, they apologize to me. And they said, hey man, we know what happens when we come home and we should have been there for you. If we would have been ABC, you would have been hot water. We just weren't as worried about you. So that's when I started realizing like, hey, leadership has nothing to do with your rank. These are E6s and E7s. Like, this has to do with people.

Yes.

Like taking care of people and looking after them. Uh, and that's when I started realizing, okay, this leadership thing is about taking care of people. Clearly about relationships, man.

One thing you said about, you know, your E-78 and E-9 putting their ranks on the line— I have seen a few commanding officers do that for me, and people like that, I will follow them everywhere they go. If they go to hell, I will go right behind them, because, uh, it really makes you realize that, um, people above all else, and when they really, really truly mean it, right? And, uh, I feel like you absolutely did Though I think I completely understand. If you've been through a tough time, a specific, you know, you've had an experience, it's not right for you to share that with people who have no idea or no clue what it feels like. It's almost like, you know, you being a Christian, it's almost as if you're going through water baptism in a way. It's almost as if, yeah, you've— or kind of like, no, if I take a step back for all of us who are in the military now. Like when I was enlisted, I had to go through boot camp. So every single sailor who's ever been a sailor in the US Navy throughout our entire 250+ years of history all have gone through boot camp. So I know I have something in common with them, which makes me a United States sailor. I'm no longer a civilian. I went through the baptism. I know exactly what it means to be a sailor. And going into a combat zone, that's a completely different experience. So I definitely understand that. But at the same time, You know, you went to what we call in the Navy, Captain Mass. So you're going to have to pay the consequences, good or bad, for taking your stand. But I definitely applaud you for taking a moral stand there. And I think that's one of those things as a soldier, as an airman, as a service member, sometimes you're going to have to do what you believe is the right thing. And that is fine, but you may still have to pay a price for it. Worst case scenario, they could have kicked you out of the service altogether. But thank God those E7, E8, E9, they really did what they were supposed to. They stepped up because of what they saw in you. What did that experience teach you?

So that experience taught me the power of reputation. Because those weren't just regular E6s, E7s, and like, those were, those were the guys. Like, even to this day, like, I could— people were like, hey, I want you to tell me. Like, I don't even want to tell the story because I know that there were even bigger superheroes, is what I argue. And I had them there at that base, so their reputation mattered, right? And it wasn't just based on competence, it was also their character. So it was something that I wanted to emulate. And I said, hey, if I must stay and wear this uniform, I'm going to emulate that. What does that look like? How do I develop that? Uh, that's what I learned in that situation because I was like, nobody— you can't just do it just because your position, even as an E-9, like there's a difference between E-9 and chief for the Air Force. Anybody who's been in the Air Force, they already know what I'm talking about. So, so where is your character at? Uh, yes, yes, that matters, that matters a lot at the table.

Wow. So you have studied and lived servant leadership. What does it really mean in practice?

So servant leadership in practice really means, can I turn off what we— what the books would call psychological egoism? Psychological egoism is saying that we have a natural state of self-interest. Everybody does, right? That's the debate. But everybody has that, that natural state of, hey, I— what's, what's best for me? What am I going to get out of it? Servant leadership flips that upside down and says, what's best interest for you, even if it costs me, even if emotionally I don't want to, right? So in theory, that's it, but in practice, how do I actually do that? Like, how do I actually move forward with being able to do that? So I say servant leadership is one of the hardest things to do out of all leadership theories because I've got to turn that off. I gotta be sacrificial to to be able to say, hey, what's the best interest of you? Even if I don't like you.

Yes.

Even if you're messing up, even if, you know, you're, you're the, you're the person who's creating the toxic work environment. I still need to see what the best interest is of you is. And there's some powerful things that come after that.

Wow, that is really powerful. So you really have to have that intention. Uh, so why do you believe then that servant leadership is more effective today than traditional command and control?

So I believe it's more because command and control doesn't require emotion. It requires me to be a manager. So as the EA, all I need to do is tell you guys A, B, C, do it. If you don't do it, there will be a discipline process.

Yes.

It doesn't work. I've got officers that I can have, you know, punish you, right? It doesn't require much. It only requires headspace. Servant leadership requires headspace and heart space. Really, when we talk about servant leadership, can I love you appropriately? Yes, right. Can I actually— and that doesn't mean I don't discipline. That doesn't— does not mean that I always agree with you. Like, love means like, how do I do what's in the best interest of you? I discipline you because this is in the best interest of you. You get kicked out of the military early, you lose all your benefits. This is not smart. I need you to get back online, right? So that's how I believe, like, servantly. And in that because you have love and genuine love, you have the highest level of influence. Like, then that's what leadership all goes down to, right? Is that, can I influence these individuals to do A, B, C, D? Well, it's going to be founded on love because love is not manipulative. I'm not trying to manipulate you. I really want the best for you. When people start realizing that, that's a lot more influential than, hey, command and control. Yeah, I'm a new senior master sergeant. I'm the chief master sergeant. I need you to do A, B, C, D, E, F, G. Are they going to get it done? Absolutely. Are they going to do it at excellence? Unless that's their purpose in life, they're not going to.

Yes, right.

So what makes somebody go there? It's love. It's like, hey, this person loves me, and I clearly know they love me, and they've proven it to me. So if they ask me, I'm going to go further. That's always going to be— that's always going to be more, more powerful than command and control.

That is so powerful. So how do you then balance the the love you have for people who report to you, for your team, and the need and requirement of the mission?

Oh, that's a good one. That's a great question. How do I balance that? I prioritize it with them first. I know there's a statement that the Air Force says, people first, mission always. I don't believe that. It's people first, mission second. You don't have a mission without people, point blank. And if I can stop the mission, I will stop the mission to take care of people. Um, that— does that get me hot water? Absolutely. But that's why I get paid E-8 money.

Yes.

It's your money, right?

Yeah.

I can explain like, hey, this is what's happening with these individuals, but I will always prioritize the folks first because you don't have a mission without that. And the last thing you want to do, especially in a combat situation, is to go into mission with the people that are not in the right headspace. Yes, for the sake of the mission. Right? Like, I want, I want to pick as many, you know, I want to help as many. I don't get to pick everybody on my bus. But I do get to help everybody that's on my bus.

Yes.

So how do I do that? And how do I prioritize that? And that's going to require me to get in trouble. But again, that's why we say rooftops in the Air Force, we have rooftops, it's our job to get slapped. If you're a Master Sergeant, Senior Master Sergeant Chief, your job is to get slapped. So do I have the humility to do that? Do I understand my purpose? Um, so that's how I balance it. So please know, I can't get you in trouble. Yes, I've been on the other side and like, Gross, you're wrong on this. Hey, absolutely, fully understand. I know that is a mission stoppage. This is what we need to do from here. Y'all can put the blame on me, but it gives them safety, gives them psychological safety.

Yeah, that is really profound because when I had the privilege of being a commanding officer, I had two leadership mentors. The ones that you mentioned. I think we probably stole it from the Army, but "Mission first, people always" is what they say, and then "One team, one fight." And I like what you say, "People first and mission second." That makes it very, very clear. You're gonna take care of your people first and foremost. And it's also true, especially when you are in a combat zone. One of your responsibilities as a team leader, you want to make sure everybody goes home alive. Right? You want everybody to go home after the mission is complete. And like you say, if they're not in the right headspace, that will probably not happen. Right? And you don't want to have PTSD and all kinds of nightmares because you could have done something different to save one of the lives of your men. But having said that, that's really a leadership decision, right? Like, like it says, the buck stops with you. That's why you get the E-8 money. That's why I get the O5 money. But the truth is, you are really putting your own career on the line because you could be court-martialed and you could be asked to retire, or they could just kick you out of the service altogether, or even get a dishonorable discharge. Right.

Yeah.

So that's why I always have the 3 questions in front of me, like, hey, is this unethical? Is this immoral? Is this legal? If it's no to all 3, I'm going to take it. Because then the worst they could do then at that point is, all right, hey, we're going to fire you. 'All right, we got to find another place to put the senior because of ABC.' It's never come to that. But I've had a couple of commanders like, 'Hey, how come are you— like, why are you putting the people first and we got a mission?' Like, if you don't, I'm telling you, there's going to be consequences that we're gonna have to deal with later. So let's deal with this now. So we have to deal with those, those very bad consequences of the late phone calls on the Saturday, Airman did ABCDEFG, whether it's fighting, drinking, trying to commit suicide. You need to do this now. If you don't do this now, we need to be prepared for these consequences.

Man, that's really powerful. So do you believe that really builds trust quickly within your team members when they know that you are willing to do that for them?

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. When they see that and they noted it, right? And typically I try not to, right? Because the last thing you want is to step out of your commander's office and then say, hey, I said this, but my commander said it. You do not want to do that. So I usually like, I do not do that. Like, as far as they know, we're on on the same page. But some airmen, some of the NCOs, they'll pick up and they'll be like, wait, I wouldn't know, that wouldn't— so why are you in trouble? Like, you said you agreed.

Yes.

Why are you in trouble? Yes. Don't pick up on it. And then it'll be like, okay. And then that spreads like wildfire, like, hey, this dude is here to take care of us, he's here to protect us. And then what happens is they start policing themselves, which is what we want as senior NCOs anyway. So they start policing themselves, not because the Air Force says standard, but because we work for him, we work for her. Like, it's just, it's just this ripple effect, right? So it really starts with that, that L-O-V-E word, that love.

Wow.

Am I willing to put love in there? And yes, that's going to have some consequences. Maybe I'm not going to promote as quickly as I like, but that's fine. That's not what I'm here to do. What's my purpose?

Wow, that is really powerful. I think it's about 5 years ago, I guess that's when I started this, this podcast. I started to think of one word that defined leadership. Prior to that, to me, it was influence. But now, more and more, I think love really defines what leadership is all about. That is quite amazing. Okay, I guess this is going to be a myth-busting session. So what about this one? Um, throughout my entire career, many of my mentors have told me it gets lonely at the top. They think of leadership like a pyramid. It's very pointed at very very top, very, very few people, and at the bottom is the base where you have a lot of people. And usually, as you climb up the, uh, chain of command or the corporate ladder, you are pretty lonely up there. I don't believe you agree. You've said that leadership isn't lonely. So how should leaders rethink the narrative? How do you see it?

So leadership, right? I always— I don't know if anybody watches, uh, documentaries on like going up mountains, like climbing up mountains. I love watching those because I want to see the resilience. But nobody climbs that mountain by themselves. Like, it gets smaller and smaller and smaller, right, as the air gets thinner and thinner, but you're not by yourself. So when I think back to— and I don't know how it is for necessary for the corporate world, but for military world, you're not by— like, if you're lonely, it's because of two things. One, you're practicing psychological egoism, or two, because you want it to be. Yes, right. Like, you were willing to step on individuals to get there.. But in my experience of always climbing, when I was an Airman Leadership Instructor, I had an amazing team and an amazing commandant. When I was Development Advisor for Cadena, for Okinawa, for the, for the entire Pacific, I had an amazing team. Like when I was the SERT, when I, when I was the SEL for over in California, amazing team. I am not by myself. Like I'm not even now, even though I came to this new base, I'm not. I have Senior Hawk, I have my LT, I have an entire team that I can go and lean on. So yeah, it gets thinner when you get up there. The air gets real thin, but you're not by yourself. So it's really a choice. It's like, hey, am I, am I looking around to see who is around me? And if I am by myself for whatever reason in that corporate side, am I willing to pull people with me? Am I willing to pull people with me to go? So then that way, because again, no one climbs Mount Everest by yourself. That's, that's insane. So to go up the leadership ladder by yourself, that's insane. You're asking, you're asking for something bad to happen, whether your character breaks, you know, or your health falls apart, whatever that might be. As human beings, we're communal. I'm an introvert by nature. I still want a community. Yes.

Yes.

So that's something I always think about. Say, ah, not leadership is not It's not lonely on top. You're just choosing to be.

That is really powerful and insightful. Now, what about the weight of command? You said you served as the SEL, which is Senior Enlisted Leader. And I got the chance— I was the executive officer, but I got a chance to be commanding officer at the very, very top. I was in charge of the entire unit, their mission, and the people. And I feel like there is a weight, a real weight to command. I mean, it is, it is not easy. It's a huge responsibility. Because anything happened to your people, 2 o'clock, uh, it's a Saturday or they go drinking or whatever happened to them, ultimately you are responsible for that. So how do you deal with the weight of command?

I share it. That's what I did. So for California, and the team would probably tell you if they're even watching, some of the folks that are watching, like one of the first things I did is I always line up my expectations, and then from there I would have NCO and senior NCO meetings once a month.. And then I shared that. I empowered them. I said, hey guys, this is what I'm responsible for. But when it comes to morale and discipline, this is what I need from you. I would share that weight. So even if we have those problems that come up, I'm not just by myself there at 2:00 in the morning. My teammates are there, right? My Sergeant Lunas are there, my Sergeant Hobbs are there. Like, my other NCOs are right there with me. We're sharing that weight. So that's how I did on the enlisted side. On the officer side, Sheesh, like, man, that pressure on y'all. So my job is also to check in on my officers because that is no joke. Like, until— until for my folks that are enlisted, until you like hit that E7, E8 rank and start working with the officers on your side, you have no idea the level of pressure that is on them. So me doing my job very well and taking care of people makes his job or her job a lot easier. A lot easier. So I don't know, you can do that on officer side, but on enlisted side, I empower. Like, you guys need— you guys—

powerful. There is somebody with your last name here.

Are you related?

Jenna says, oh yeah, that's the—

yeah, yeah, yeah, that's my sister. Yeah, that's my little sister there.

All right, man, you guys are a serving family. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And we have our first question, uh, from, uh, uh, the live audience. Please let us know who's watching. Where you are coming from, what city, what state, and if outside of the US, which country. And also, if you have a question, let us know and senior master sergeant is going to be answering live. And also let us know what you are grateful for.

Okay.

Daniel Young is very active member of my tribe. He says, okay, Dr. Goss, your hustler leadership is all about heart and relationship. From your experience, what system have to be in place so servant leadership relationships don't crack under pressure? Oh, that's a good question.

Oh man, that's good. That's a really good one. So I would say the system starts with expectations. So I'll give an example. As SEL over in California, the first thing I did, because the commander is trying to pick who's going to be their senior enlisted leader, I told him what, what my leadership philosophy is and what my expectation and standards are. So that way the commander can say yay or nay. If he said no, like, I don't really like that, then that tells me this system isn't going to work. Now I need to figure out what his system is. Yes, in military I would argue that servant leadership would work even for those folks that may be toxic in some format because they're going to see the level of influence you have. On the corporate side, we're talking about return investment, we're talking about money. Servant leadership may cost you money. So if that system is not in place for it, then what level of position do you have to influence to change that system? And if you don't have that, are you willing to stay in that company for X amount of time until you get to that position to change? Is it worth it? What's your strong— what's your purpose? If not, then you need to roll. Um, so that was a really great question. Like, hey, what's the system? So for the military, I always make it very clear. To any commander, anybody that says, hey, Gross, we want you to lead, like, here's my expectations, here's servant leadership, what— this is what I'm going to do, this is what I mean, this is what— how we're going to move, humble understanding, selflessness, how do I help you with your trauma, love you through it, get to a level of excellence and recuperation. Like, this is what I'm here to do, so be on the team, this is what I'm going to do. And does that fit the system? Typically, again, military, even if I go to Marines, even if I go to the Hail dogs. Talk to them about that, they'd be like, listen, first of all, you, you, you got— you're very energetic. And then too, yeah, we hear you. So, so if it works with the Marines, it can work with—

that's right, that's right. The few, the proud, the Marines. Nobody like them.

So I hope that answers the question.

Yeah, absolutely. So what is, uh, your command philosophy?

So my command philosophy is very simple, right? Servant leadership. I'm here to serve you. I'm here to love you. And then I explain what love is, right? Um, and, and that— hey, your best interest, disciplining you when we need to discipline. Let's have fun, but these expectations need to be made. So that's, that's my leadership philosophy. I have a whole bunch of standards, and then, and then I tie it to what the Air Force standards are, right, with our major grade, uh, major graded airmen areas, or when it comes to leadership and innovation and like how these things play, um, and then let them know like, hey, here's my expectations. Yes, just move from, from there. And I know that I have to win people over. I know that rank brings trauma. Not every senior master sergeant, uh, was a good senior master sergeant. So I have to understand that this rank can bring trauma. I'm about to earn your trust, but I always start off with 100% trust with everyone. I always tell them that. I'll never have them like, hey, you have to earn my trust. That sends a different message that I don't want sent.

Um, yes.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, but I, I'm, I'm, I'm also just like in the Navy, like my own experience, maybe only once or twice throughout my 21-year career have I seen a chief, senior chief, or master chief who didn't deserve to be there. For the most part, 99.9% of them, they're just excellent. Like I say, they, they run the Navy. I hope that's the same. Yeah, the same experience of the Air Force. Yes. Yeah.

So for the most part, for the most part, I think what happens is, is what people would say, hey, this is an E-9, is really more of an individual that's exhausted.

Yes.

Because at this point, you know, they're, they're being thrown a lot of things. Nobody really prepares anybody for E-9 until you put on E-9. So you may have an idea of it, and then you find out this is another thing, and then you have study more. You have to be more people-centric than maybe you were used to. Those things can wear you out. And anybody who's in pain or anybody who's exhausted, it's not going to be pleasant to be around. Well, maybe this is why—

well, they should have the years, but maybe they should just retire. But, uh, yeah, because as a commanding officer, I couldn't stand anybody, including my department head, mistreating my sailors. Absolutely not. Uh, because now I always remember, because I come in as an E-1, so what would Seaman Zinga think about this unit, right?

Yeah.

How would I treat Seaman Zinga? Because I think it really makes a big, big difference how you treat your junior enlisted. Absolutely. Uh, and what, what, can you share some, some of your expectations for your airmen?

Yeah, absolutely. So usually, again, our major graded areas is like leadership, followership, right, um, when it comes to teamwork, innovation. So a lot of things on leadership is one, followership. Like, hey, don't say you're a leader until you're a follower. Um, when I say follower, what's the expectations that are placed in front of you? Leadership is relationship. So I need you to develop relationships, even including people you don't like. Like, one of my pet peeves is favoritism. Don't play that. Sexual harassment, don't play that. Like, these are the things that I don't, because it hurts relationship. Like, it hurts relationships, and then if it hurts relationships, it's going to hurt mission. So when I tell them leadership, I'm like, how are you building healthy relationships? How much do you know about emotional intelligence? How are you communicating? Or do you have an open door policy? I have an open door policy. Are you having those communications? So that's really what I'm big— innovation, make the job easier. That's what I tell them. So find a way to make the job easier. Is it safe, right? If it's not unethical or moral or illegal, Let's try it. Let's try it. If anybody gets in trouble, I get in trouble. That's, that's how this works.

All right, so we have another question from the audience. This is from Chris Johnson. His name didn't come up, but Chris Johnson says, uh, sup Joe, greeting from Alaska. How do you handle the NCOs who think they want to be a master sergeant but still have work to do as a tech sergeant? Uh, bitter, bad attitude, not owning their own things, not enforcing standards, so on and That's a great question for a senior Master Chief doctor. How do you— yeah, answer that.

That's a great question. So how do I handle NCOs who want to be Master Sergeants but they're not ready? Um, it starts with mentoring, uh, and when I say deep mentoring, really coaching. Because here's where now mentorship is like, hey, I'm advising you based upon where I've been. Uh, coaching is like I'm trying to have you self-resolve. So if an individual— if I've been mentoring them and they're not It's not catching that they, they're very bitter. It's not catching that they're not very competent in the job and they didn't want to still do what they were going to do. Then I'll flip her to coaching, and then I'll ask coaching questions, open-ended questions, to make them critically think about what a master sergeant does. I'll say, hey, you know, what do you think a master sergeant does? Like, tell me what it is. What do you think would happen if that master sergeant wasn't as competent in that, or they're always bitter? What would What would that impact be? So how do you think you've been mirroring that same behavior?

Yes.

Wow.

Right.

So I'll be coaching and mentoring at the same time. So then that would— but there's got to be some form of trust in coaching. It's one of the hardest things about coaching, as you know, Coach Bizzy, right? It's like, hey, developing trust relatively quickly. So then that way they'll start peeling the layers back.

How do you do that? How do you develop trust quickly, especially when you are, you know, in a team with, uh, where stakes are very high, which in the military it's almost always the case. How do you do that?

So I do that by just being face value. I call it face value. You've got to be present. So I can't get stuck behind it. That's one of the things that, um, for E7s and above, we can easily get stuck behind that computer. Yeah, plenty of taskers, you know. Your goal is to clear that email traffic. You've got to have face time. Um, and that's one of the things I encourage even commanders, like, hey, have face time, because that's that's at least a line of trust. And as you have face time and you have those just, you know, random conversations with troops and they start getting more and more comfortable with you, even those folks that are maybe lacking in their ability but they want to be that next Master Sergeant, yes, hey, like, I need to coach and mentor you in this. And there should be some form of a line of trust there to where you'll listen. Now, will everybody listen? Absolutely not. And if those folks don't listen, they're not teachable. They're not teachable. You've got to be honest with them, say, hey man, I don't know if this is necessarily for you until you come to a reason for yourself that you want to be teachable, you know. And that goes back to their purpose and their why.

Yeah, I was gonna say it goes back to the why that you mentioned earlier. And, uh, so you mentioned mentorship. I think mentorship is really a master key for success. Now, when I became an IP officer, 2007, it was such a small community, we were pretty much forced to be mentored. So they would get, you know, anybody would maybe O3, O4, O5 to mentor the O1 and the O2s. So whether you like it or not, you were assigned a mentor. Do you believe kind of in a forced mentorship structured program, or do you think it needs to happen organically and naturally? The mentee needs to find their own mentors? What's your thought on that?

I would, I would lean more to a forced one while the mentee looks for one. Right? Because sometimes we just don't know we need one.

Right?

So if I'm an O-1 or O-2, especially if I was enlisted prior, and then I come in and be an officer, you're like, I got it. I know the structure.

Yes, I get it.

But you really need that mentorship. So I would say forced, I would be leaning more towards forced, just because the individuals that are at higher rank know what that real level of responsibility is.

Yes, right.

And what that development is, especially in the officer world. I'm not too sure in the Navy, but I'm pretty sure Navy and Air Force mirror one another. So when you're 01, 02, that's gonna make or break you. Like, those, those, those two ranks are going to make or break you. So if you don't have a mentor that's telling you, hey, are you going to this school? Are you doing this? Are you switching over to these roles and doing this to make sure you diversifying your experience so that way we can place you in a position where you can be a major and soon someday a lieutenant colonel and a colonel.

Yes.

You're just looking at captain and that, and that by that time frame it's almost too late, right?

Yeah.

So I would, I'd say force mentorship, um, and that's something that Air Force, depending on what base, they do really well. Other bases they don't do that so well. So that's what I'll probably lean more towards.

That, that's, that's powerful because of that experience I had when I was an O-1, when I became a commanding officer as an O-5. I developed a buddy system. Every time we had a brand new sailor in my unit, then they would get a buddy for at least 6 months plus or minus their pay grade. So if they're an E-4, they're going to get an E-5 or an E-4 or an E-3, but somebody to be with them for the next 6 months. Hey, this is the plan of the month. Hey, this is where we go. This is where we PT. This is where we eat. And so that they know exactly, you know, they get adjusted to this new commander. I think that's quite important. Okay, we are already running out of time. Talking to you for hours and hours. We have about, uh, 12 minutes left. I think I want to talk about your Hustler Framework for sure. So can you break down your Hustler Framework for us? Yes. How can leaders apply it starting tomorrow?

All right, so Hustler Framework, uh, funny story with that one is that I have a board in my, in my office that says, "Mind of a Hustler, Heart of a King." So I was told to, um, go and, go and give a speech at the ALS graduation, and I used Hustler and John Dix, if he's watching right now, Chief Dix, he's probably laughing his tail off. But the Hustler framework is this, is really simple, right? Air Force and military, we typically do leadership and acronyms. So Hustler is H is humility, right? Am I humble enough? If I am humble enough, then I get to the U, which is understanding. I become more understanding of the people around me. As I understand them, I create this connection that makes me want to be selfless.

Right?

That's where the heart and love come from, because now I start seeing us more with commonalities and differences. So I will serve you. Um, what happens is, as you serve people, not everybody's going to respond well. Their traumas are going to come out. So whether they're gonna, um, uh, offend you or they remind you of another offense, um, and then that's where we have this, this choice of, okay, cool, now that trauma— now will I love you or will I lose you? Right? If I lose you, that means that I'm going to take on the responsibilities that you're supposed to do, and I'm going to get exhausted. And because I'm exhausted, eventually I'll be resentful of either leading you guys or resentful of the organization I work for. If I choose to love you, which means, hey, discipline you, get you like— have real communication, right? Be honest and transparent. What's going to happen is we're going to develop a, a culture of excellence, which is what everybody wants. And in that excellence, then we'll have time to recuperate. And that's the Hustler Framework.

Um, okay, so you said H for humility, U for understanding, S for selfless, and then what about the T?

T was trauma.

Trauma, yes, you might. Yeah, very good. And, uh, the L?

L was either for love or loss. So you get a point, you get it. Once you hit trauma, you hit the T, right? You got two ways to go. I love her.

If, if was for excellence, right?

Yeah, it was for excellence if you choose love. So if you choose love, it builds a, a culture of excellence. And then because you're building a culture of excellence, we have room to recuperate, we have room to rest, right? Because we're helping each other out.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wow, I love that. Hustler, humility, understanding. Selfless, trauma, love or loss, then excellence if you choose love, and then rest. I love it. I love it. Wow, this is powerful, man. You come up with that on your own?

I came up with that on my own. There's no AI, no nothing. That's the Lord.

Wow.

So as soon as I wrote, I was like, oh, this is fire. I can't even wait.

Now we've talked a lot about humility. Why is humility so critical? What is it such a foundation for?

Oh man, humility is critical because it's not passive. Like, you have to intentionally go after humility, right? So I've heard this phrase once, this is, humility is not thinking less of myself but thinking of myself less.

Yes, yes, right. Wow.

It's an intentional act. And I say it's intentional because again, our, our by nature, by nature is us to be selfless. Less. If you don't believe me, if you have kids, like, just look at them. I have a 6-year-old, I have a 4-year-old, and I have a 1-year-old. It's all about what they want. They're not like, oh, let me give my toy away. Like, yes, it's by nature, right? So we have— so humility, it's not, it's not passive in nature. I have to go after wanting to really help folks, and that requires— and that's why it's so important in leadership, because now I have to really reflect on how come I'm doing this.

Hmm.

Like, what's the reason why I'm doing this, right? This is why I say, hey, you know, for your social and then your spiritual aspect— because everyone talks about the four domains. We'll talk about, you know, lifting weights physically, talk about mental, like, hey, how smart you are, social, who's around you. We shy away from spiritual. I don't, because your spiritual framework is going to give you that answer. That's why I don't shy away from the faith of Christianity, right? When I say Yeshua, me shot, like I've studied, because that's my framework for me to go and say I need to be humble. My God was humble, then I better mimic my God. Okay, so maybe you don't rock with Jesus. Okay, so Buddhist, is there anything in the Buddhist world that's humble? Well, there is if you want to go and get to the next enlightenment, right? So I apologetically, I understand each of them, even to the atheist and agnostic. Like, why are you gonna be up for your legacy? So I know how to do this in coaching and talking to see. And then they say, how do you know that?

Yeah.

And then invite them, you know, like, hey, to the faith, if they're, if they're interested. Like, how did you get here? Plus, in that, that's, that's where that humility piece is. It's like, it's not passive. It is extremely difficult to do. But if you do it, people are going to pick up on it, and it's like honey, honey to flies. They're gonna come. They're gonna come and say, what's going on? Oh wow, you're really gonna help me?

Oh wow.

And then, yeah, powerful. I definitely agree. Just like Janice Romero, great, Dr. Gross. This is so powerful. It is simple, but it is so powerful. I guess another thing with humility is the moment you say I am humble, I guess you are no longer humble after that. But it is really so crucial if you are going to lead because leading with ego is always gonna get you into the wrong direction because it's all about me, myself, and I. So think about the mission and the people. So let's talk a little bit, we're running outta time, but I at least want to mention your podcast this one year.

Yes.

The Servants Council established 2023. Can you tell us about that please?

Yeah, so Servants Council was actually birthed after my daughter. So after Jayla, she was in, uh, we had to do an emergency evac. But long story short, I said, hey, you know what, I need to have something that's of legacy that, um, that I can provide for the family but also be able to do some good, right? A lot of people— so Servants Council is ultimately based on servant leadership, and the whole goal is, again, how do I make sure that the people I'm around or the people that are engaging myself or anybody that's a part part of that company, yes, are left off better than we found them.

Wow.

Like, that's the ultimate goal of that. So that's why it's called the Servants Council.

Yes.

You know, I'm pretty sure, you know, you're at the same faith, so you're, you're probably very familiar with the scripture in Revelations of the 26 elders that give their crown.

Yeah.

So that's, uh, that's the thing, it's like, hey, our, uh, the crown is serving. Yes, that's the crown. And if we really want to be very influential a positive mark, right? Leave a legacy for our kids to follow. Um, it really comes down to that. So the service council ends up doing that. I have, uh, that's where my dissertation was on, was on the development of servant leadership. So I created a workshop. That's the one that, you know, wow, the school called and said, hey, congratulations, you did great, we'll give you some feedback, but you are a doctor now. So taking that and saying, hey, how do I develop servant leaders? Uh, but the ultimate goal of, um, I always call it bridge out of poverty. A lot of the ills that we see in our society is based off of poverty.

Yes.

Like, if I really look at it, whether it's political divisions, whether it's religious cults, everything goes back to poverty. So if I be a bridge out of poverty, then we can put people in the right spaces to make the right decisions. Wow. That's what I really want to do with Servant— with the Servants Council, is to be at hand to help folks, right?

Um, that's amazing. Really powerful. This has the potential to actually change the world. Yeah, one person at a time.

Yeah, yeah.

Through the Servant Council, you've impacted thousands already. What legacy are you trying to leave behind?

Uh, love.

Just, that's it. Like, that's the legacy, is to let folks know that they're loved in a world that I think that is very decisive uh, whether you can't tell between real and like truthful information and misinformation, uh, this place can be cold.

Yes, right.

And I want, you know, that aspect of the business to be a place where folks can go and say, hey, you know, like, there is somebody in this world that does love me, that is concerned about me, even though I may have done A, B, C, D, E, F, G. Wow. And that— and the power of love transforms.

Yes, right.

Like, that's what I've learned. Like, that's where I'm at, where I'm at right now, is because the power of love has transformed me, transformed my mind.

Yes.

So that's my hope. And then of course leaving that for my kids, because I know I could die any day. So they have something, at least they have their dad's voice. They know what dad was really trying to work on and do. And maybe if they want to take that further, then they can.

So will there be a book, sir?

There will be. I've been teasing for years. My troops know I always call it Players Guide to the Galaxy because they always ask us, like, you should write a book. So I'm called Players Guide to the Galaxy. But there will be a book, um, I don't know the title yet, but it will be within servant leadership, right? And then the development of it, I will be getting with the head honchos. I don't want to do the same thing everybody else has because there's some great servant leadership books out there. Dr. Robert Cruz, like his latest book on servant leadership and the healing to racism. Like, so I want to make sure that in my specific route, it's like, hey, what am I trying to get to? Yes, that, um, that will, you know, generate some interest. Hey, let me go pick this up. So I haven't figured that quite out yet as I look around, because I did— again, I just don't want to do a repeat, right? I want to give something that's relatively new, relatively fresh. And allow people to think.

Wow, that is really, really powerful. But whenever you do, sir, come back here. Let's help you be a best-selling author. And then let's—

I appreciate that.

I think last year, I think it was about May, everybody I interviewed, I asked them for books they read or books they recommend. We started with a couple. Now we have more than 400 books on the digital bookshelf. So yeah, that is a lot. So your book needs to be on that bookshelf for sure. All right, we are quickly running out of time. And here, let's see, uh, Jana says fantastic. Oh, hold on.

Fantastic.

Yeah, the Servant Council LLC. That's right. Okay, uh, technically we are out of time. Can you give me 10 more minutes, or do we have to—

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

So for the last segment, I kind of want to get into your head and think about, um, some of the leadership principles that have helped you be successful. Your career in the US Air Force, your doctorate, and now your coaching business, and pretty soon your, your book. Why? Okay, first let me ask, what do you believe is one of the greatest lessons you have ever learned, whether in life, in leadership, or in general?

Yeah, uh, so I said earlier, love transforms. So I mean, I, I said this too, we had a, uh, we had like a big survey for the Air Force, but ultimately I've told told them like, hey, if we ever do any personality stuff, or when it comes to leadership, if they don't know how to love, they have no business being in leadership. And if they don't know how to love because of, you know, past and trauma, are they teachable to learn? And if it's a no, they have no business being in leadership.

Wow.

I'm gonna ask these group of men and women across all sister services to possibly die while wearing this uniform. If I'm in leadership, you better know how to love.

Yes, yes.

You better know how to love appropriately.

Yeah, that's really something. When you are in the military, you always have to think about the stakes. Like you say, in Silicon Valley or the industry, corporate America, worst thing that happens, they lose money. But in the military, people may actually die.

Yeah.

And that's a huge, huge responsibility. Wow. Okay. And why do you think you've been so successful? What's the secret to your success, Dr. Joseph Gross Jr.?

Oh man, so again, it goes to— for me, it goes to my faith. I don't think that I'm here by chance. There was miracles that happened on the road in convoys, the mistakes that I made that should have cost me my arm, my leg, or my team, and it didn't happen, um, for whatever reason. And then even for me to go to a doctorate, I just really feel like this all glorifies God. I think we're at a time where folks are trying to discern what's real spiritually and what's not. Um, and again, I've studied all religions. I am not by dogma. My family wasn't raised Christian, like we were, you know, Islam. My closest friend was a Muslim at the time, so if anything, I would have jumped to Islam. Um, but what I've learned was like, hey, this faith is true. It does take faith to walk out on it. And in that, I've found that that success has always been when I'm following and I'm obedient. When I'm not following obedient, this is where I make all the wonderful mistakes. Uh, so for me, uh, that success comes from that. So when they say, hey, doctorate, like, it's Regent University, that's a whole bunch of professors that are praying for you, right? That's even from my master's, that's even from my bachelor's degree, University of Mount Olive. So like, there's— the success is not unwedded from my faith. It is for me. So my encouragement is like, hey, maybe you're not necessarily Christian faith, or maybe you've been teeter-tottering, like, really look at it. I will argue again don't look at the people, look at the documents of what they're saying, right? Um, you know, like, what is probably most true? Um, and what I found is the Christian faith to be the most true. And as I continue doing this walk, God has been faithful even in my brokenness to allow me the opportunity to even go and try to get a doctorate degree and then finish the doctorate degree while being a senior master sergeant in the United States Air Force, whilst having a wife who is showing me grace and mercy as she is raising 3 kids, working her own job, and her husband is over here reading books and writing papers. Like, you just can't unwed and wed faith from this and what God— from that. So when someone asks me what's the success, like, that— it comes to that. It really comes to that for me.

Wow, that is really powerful. And you did mention, uh, failure. Uh, how has failure shaped your life?

Oh man, failure has— I heard somebody, what did they say the other day? They said it's not really failure, it's small successes. I'm taking that. I literally heard that yesterday. I was like, oh man, yeah, small success. So failure has shaped my life and the things that I need to change. Um, a lot— I had a lot of anger in my 20s, right? My sister's probably listening, she knows the stories, she's been a part of those stories. Uh, if I have my ALS team here right? They even wrote on my plaque, the Joes. It's like when I would get angry, I would shake, and they would say like, he's mad. Um, so those failures of being able to control my emotions and the heatedness, like, that taught me the damage it did to relationships and ultimately what happened when it came to us trying to work together to get on the same mission. Yes, it just— and that's where I believe like meekness is truly strength. Right, I always say serving others is not for the weak, it's for the weak. In other words, it's power restraint. I restrain my power, I restrain my anger because love tells me that this relationship is important even if I think it's not.

Yes, right.

Wow, that's the power, that's the powerful lesson that I've learned. Um, and of course, anger management, this is like years of work, does not happen overnight. This is one of the things that God let me try to work out on, work out.

Yes. Right?

They just take it away. But, um, but that's one of the things I say, a failure or the, the little success.

Yes, that's a good way to look at it. So what's the leadership failure, if you're willing to share, that shaped who you are today?

Oh man, so there's a lot of leadership failures, but the one that comes to mind was when I was teaching in Airmen Leadership School, and I, what I felt like, betrayed by one of my instructors. She comes in to apologize for that betrayal, and I just cussed her out in the office, and she leaves crying. And I didn't realize there's a whole bunch of chiefs outside of my office, so I opened the door and the chiefs are like— I was like, hey chiefs, how you all doing? Like, I just straight-faced, and they were like, yo, something is wrong. And then I remember my commandant sitting me down, he's like, hey man, like, dude, you've gotta, you've gotta work on this. Like, like, and I'm going— and shout out to, uh, Jeffrey Stoner. All right, he's retired chief, but he was like, I'm still gonna push you. Like, I don't care that you— like, you're going to change behavior because we're on the same mission. You say you care about people. This needs to change. So in that opportunity, that's where I went to anger management, try to figure out what's these emotions, and yes, how do I deal with this, how do I communicate this better. Um, and it led me to the road to where we're at right here, where I'm like, okay, like, meekness is truly just withholding because I have real understanding of what love is and how to move forward with that.

So yeah, that is really powerful. And I've seen in my own experience, it's mostly men, although some women may, may have similar problem too, where we kind of have trouble dealing with our emotion. Uh, that's why I also believe a lot of men in the Navy right now, they have PTSD, but they have no idea. They haven't been diagnosed. They never say, I need help. They, they just pretend to be alpha male. And all strong, invincible warrior, which is a bunch of nonsense. But, uh, what would you say to, uh, young officers or enlisted who are listening right now, who tend to have— I guess it's really a facade. They pretend, yes, than they really are when they really need to be dealing with some serious, uh, emotion and do some work. What would you tell them?

I'll be encouragement, like, go get help. I'll give you, I'll give you a prime example, right? We just talked about failure and anger. So I didn't get help until like later on in my career. I finally go to mental health. We do some of the work, we peel back the onions, and I found out that one of my triggering points is when I'm not listened to, when I feel like I'm not listening to. This is when my ALS team would say, oh, he's getting the joes because I'm getting angry. Well, that came back from my first mission doing convoys, lead vehicle commander. I see what I know is a bomb, a bomb that can kill us. I call it up and they don't listen to me. They say, hey, he's brand new, he's green behind his ears. So we go through, there's a contracting team right behind us, and boom, and they're dead. And I did not know that I had equated to every time someone doesn't listen to me to that event. Hmm. Then I would overflow in anger, right? I would see red. I didn't know that.

Wow.

If I didn't get therapy, I wouldn't know that. So now when my wife doesn't listen to me, Who's seeing red?

Hmm.

Like, this stuff plays out in your personal life, and you think personal life doesn't affect your work. It does. So my encouragement for anybody out there, get the help. Get there. Yes, get therapy. Be honest, be transparent. Unravel those layers so then you can understand and say, okay, now that I— now that I'm not listening to today. Yes, I know where that thought system is coming from. And I have coping strategies to deal with that, right?

Wow, that is really, really powerful. Thank you so much for sharing that, because I think another thing too, when I joined the Navy 21 years ago, it's much, much different now, so much better. But back then, I remember sometimes too, if you say you're seeing a psychiatrist or whatever, you're gonna lose your security clearance, therefore you're gonna lose your job, and they're gonna kick you out of the service. But now it is definitely Imperative and the Navy will help you. We're not going to kick you out if everybody needs help. So things have changed, but it really takes leadership to also model that, right? We are not invincible. We are human beings and sometimes everybody needs help. Wow. And if that only serves one person who's listening right now, I think that's absolutely worth it. Thank you so much for sharing.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

That is really powerful. But talking about leading with love, which includes discipline as well. So how do you hold people accountable while still leading with empathy?

So a lot of folks will think that empathy means that I agree with your behavior. Empathy doesn't mean that, right? Empathy is, again, it's not a natural behavior. It's a learned behavior. Empathy means that I sit with the emotion, but I don't agree with the behavior. So for example, if someone gets mad and they fight outside the gate, outside the base, I can have empathy with your anger and still hold you accountable for your action. That's how we do it. But what people think is, is because I have empathy for you, I also agree with your action. I don't have to agree with your action, but I will empathize with you. So I know what it's like to be angry. I know what it's like to be lonely. I know what it's like to— like, we all have those emotions. So it's really just allowing ourselves to be transparent and connecting with that emotion, with that memory. When you do that, discipline typically is a lot better. Yeah, it's a lot easier to have that discipline situation with them because you're connecting with them emotionally, right? But hey, I get it, but we've gotta— we gotta handle this. And what are you gonna do in the future so you don't feel this feeling anymore? Not because Air Force told you to. Yeah, because you know, you don't want to feel this anymore, right?

So yes, I think becoming a father definitely changed me. And I think children know when you discipline them, if it comes out of love or anger, they can tell the difference. Wow, powerful, powerful. Okay, uh, we— let me ask you, okay, if you could choose 3 people, uh, to have dinner with, they could be alive, dead, or even fictitious character, who would you choose and why? 3 people.

Okay, well, obviously Yeshua, that's number 1. Uh, yep, he's gonna be number 1. Number 2 is Nelson Mandela. I have so many questions for him. 23 years in prison.

Yeah, I think 20, 27 was it?

Yeah, it was 27.

Yeah, yeah, I have so many questions.

So many questions.

Yes.

Who would be my third person? Who would be my third person that I would have, uh, lunch with or dinner with? So Yeshua, uh, Nelson Mandela, uh, I mean, I know it's going to sound redundant, but like Martin Luther King or Gandhi, one of those two would be, would be thrown in there. Just because one, I mean, obviously they're all servant leaders, and then two, the impact that they had, right?

Um, yes.

So I think it'd be very— it'd be wisdom that I would, I would be wanting to get from that. But definitely the top two was, was Jesus. Like, Nelson Mandela, I'm still studying him because I'm just— to me the level of meekness, the level of meekness that you must have, right? Desmond Tutu, that would be my third person. Yes, my third person would be Desmond Tutu.

Incredible. All right, since you haven't written your book yet, you did mention this book by Robert Cruise, yes, A Remedy for Racism in America. Why should we read this book?

Um, because I think one, we have a different— or maybe that word racism has different definitions Right, so one, it gets at that, and then two, how do we reconcile? Like, in America, we got to do this reconciliation thing. So what does reconciliation look like? And I will say that for some books, when it comes to racism, we look at one ethnic group and we don't do a mirror. This book makes you do a mirror, right? So shout out to Dr. Robert Cruz on that, because man, like, he makes us do a mirror. Like, oh man, yeah, that's true. If I walk into a whole— and just nothing but white church, I'm like, uh, right? Why am I doing that? Servant leadership. We need to, we need to build this bridge. So amazing book, amazing book by him, uh, highly, highly encouraged.

But I, I've always been, uh, concerned about this. I came to the US, I was 17 years old. I am a Christian, but I wasn't in the Deep South, Tuscaloosa, Alabama. And definitely they have white churches and black churches, right? And I'm like, you are Christian, you say you love the same God, you serve the same God, why do you have separation based on race? That doesn't make any sense to me. If anything, heaven is going to be multi-racial, multi-ethnic, right? It's all of the people who follow Jesus, that's what the teaching says. So why are we separating ourselves? Even Martin Luther King, right, he says that Sunday morning is the most segregated hour in America. How is that possible?

Because we have an enemy, we have a spiritual enemy. So in a Christian faith, you have a spiritual enemy. The last thing he wants is Jesus' prayer, which is— last Jesus' prayer was unity.

Yes.

So are we willing to bear with one another is what Paul calls it. And in bearing one another, we love one another. How do we love one another? Through servant leadership. And that's what Dr. Robert Cruz get like really gets into, was like, how do I do this? How do I bear with one another and doing this and really love one another? Because if we do that, then it's going to be an attractive faith.

That's powerful.

It's going to be a very attractive faith. Like, hey, why do you guys do this, right? You will find, like the word tells us, Acts tells you, will have favor with everyone. Even if they don't believe, you will still have favor with them because they see it. So we have an enemy, we have an active enemy who utilizes trauma, who utilizes sin and the unwillingness to reconcile to keep the church separated. Separate it as much as possible, man.

We're treating everybody with respect and dignity regardless of race, gender, or religion or whatever. Wow, that is, that is, that is powerful. Okay, um, is there maybe like a song, a book, or a movie that would be your life's theme or anthem?

Oh, uh, man, so a movie would be— it's very old— it's, uh, I'ma Get You, Sucker. It's Marlon Wayans, their first movie. That's, that's, that's what me and my father used to watch a lot. Uh, just really goofy, uh, really goofy satire. Uh, I don't know if there's necessarily a book that, that's my life. I would encourage those folks that if they're looking for a good— yeah, you probably—

I found it, 1988. I'm gonna get you.

Yeah, okay, I watch that movie a million times with my father, and, and that's just, it just Yeah, that is— that was a very influential movie for me as a, as a kid.

Um, okay, let me, let me ask you, is, is there a, a leadership lesson in that, in that movie?

Um, so there is a leadership lesson. I used to actually use it for conflict management. Uh, actually use one of the videos for conflict management on there between the mother, the son who's, uh, Jack, and then his, uh, widowed, um, brother, his brother's widow. When they're trying to do a conflict scene and they don't know what's required. So Jack has a need, his mom has a need, and then, you know, we don't know what's required in the scene, so they argue with each other, and then Jack just breaks away from his family. So there's a lot of— there's a couple of, you know, leadership lessons that you can— that you can pull from that. But it's just a funny movie that, like, I watch. Yep, that's it right there.

That's amazing. Wow. Yeah, yeah. I think I was on Lieutenant JG when my commander Taught me how to watch movie to look for leadership lesson. This is great. Okay, I need to land this plane. I've already taken too much of your time, but let me ask you this. If you had one and only one day to live, Senior, what would you have liked your final contribution to be?

Oh man, final contribution would be first thing I think of is family. I just need to know my wife, like I need to let my wife know I love her dearly. That woman has changed my life for the better, uh, even though we may think sometimes it doesn't, but she has changed my life for the better. I want to make sure that I left something for the kids that they can look back to. So if there's a book at that point, it's a book for them. It's not a— it's not necessarily a book for— but it's a book for those three, just to let them know like, hey, their dad loves them, uh, and that, you know, this is where, you know, this is how you walk the challenges they're going to have in front of them. See, I would be— it would be spent with family. That last, that last one will be all family. And then of course folks who don't come, absolutely. But yes, but my main focus was, hey, wife, I loved you and thank you for dealing with me, showing me grace, and us growing together. And it sucks that I gotta go. My kids, oh man, it sucks that your dad won't be there, uh, physically, but here's some things that, you know, help you walk. Help you walk where you need to walk to.

So, wow, that is so powerful. Thank you for sharing. And, uh, if you had a magic wand, you could solve any problem in the world, what is the one problem you'd like to solve first thing?

Poverty. Poverty. Yeah, I believe a lot of our ills in life, just across this world, is poverty. We solve that, it gives us the space, gives us the space to where we need to be at.

Wow. Powerful. Well, we are coming to the end of the show. All good things come to an end sometimes. How can we add value back to you? You've added so much value to my audience. What can we do for you?

Absolutely. So you guys can follow me on the LinkedIn page. I usually post something at least every 2 weeks. It's always encouraging. I will not have anything that's like political or anything like that. Like, it's always leadership. It's always going to be servant leadership based unless there's a major life event like getting the doctorate degree. I'll definitely share that with you. Um, I also have a podcast called The Servants Council. I also have the, um, the company, uh, Servants Council LLC. You guys will see that we have the Awaken Leadership Workshop, um, Organization DNA is what I call it for consulting, and then we also have Horizon and Realign Coaching. Um, so if you're interested in being coached, absolutely, you guys can contact me through that, or you can contact me through LinkedIn. Um, always interested. But again, I'm just— I'm here to serve. I believe that's one of the reasons why I've been allowed to continue to walk in this earth as long as I have. And I am— and that's my hope too. And then yes, later on down the road, there, there will be a book. Yes, probably come out of the, out of the workshop, uh, out of the workshop course that I've created. So yes, sir.

Wow, thank you. Thank you so much for your time today. Uh, is there a question I should have asked you I didn't get a chance ask.

No, no, no, like those, those are wonderful questions, uh, Coach BZ. I just thank you for your time, right? Coach, professor, commander, like you're the man, you're the man. But I appreciate the time, um, to come and chop it up with everybody, and I hope I was able to give value to our listeners.

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, let me ask you this, this might be the most important question. I think this is probably the closest picture I found of you right there. If you could go back and give a piece of advice to that young man, I'm saying maybe you're about 18, 19-year-old, something like that.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, standing at the edge of this incredible career you've had in the most powerful US Air Force, what would you say to that young man?

Hey man, keep the faith.

Keep—

don't lose it. Yeah, like, don't lose it. You're gonna, you're gonna go through some rough things. It's coming. That wave is coming. Keep the faith and trust yourself. Keep the faith and trust yourself. Trust— like, you can do it. You can do it. So yeah.

All right, so we are pretty much at the end. So let me ask you for permission. I know I've already used too much of your time, but if you have a couple more minutes, I want to end with—

Absolutely.

Okay, let's do it. So first thing that comes to your mind, say it. Okay, don't take too long to think. Uh, what is one word that defines great leadership?

Uh, love.

Okay. Morning routine or practice that keeps you grounded?

Oh, oh, uh, prayer.

Okay.

Prayer and music. Yeah.

A book or a quote that changed your life?

Uh, Leadership Challenge by Posner and Cozner.

You said prayer or music. What is your favorite song?

Oh man, you can't ask that question. That's too many songs, man.

First one that comes to mind.

Oh my goodness, uh, Yeshua by Maverick City.

Okay, I love it.

Like, if I need to, if I need to like really ground myself.

Okay, I love that one. Uh, who inspired you most today?

Uh, who inspires me most today? Actually, my dad. Wow, my dad does. I think he doesn't know that, but he does.

Fantastic. Well, if Dad, if you're listening, that's good, good to know. What is the leadership habit you refuse to compromise on? You will not compromise?

Reading.

Reading.

I'm not reading.

What is the question every leader should ask themselves frequently?

How, um, how are you loving people? And most importantly, how are you loving people closest to you?

Wow.

It's easy to put that persona at work.

Yes.

It's not easy to do that at home.

Yeah, you remind me of my new meaning of success. First, as your meaning of success change from this time here to—

oh yes, oh yes, that guy wanted to be a rapper, uh, he wanted to be a millionaire, have a whole bunch of land. He was like, I'm about to hustle, I'm gonna go get this business degree. Oh yeah, that's, that's way different now.

What does success mean to you today?

It just impact on people.

Wow, that's powerful. Because you reminded me, my mentor taught me that success is really having the people closest to you. Respect you the most. That's your wife, your children, people who really, really know you. Yeah. And if they can respect you more than everybody else out there, regardless of what you've achieved or accomplished, you are a successful person.

Uh, yes, absolutely.

Wow. So what did you want to be when you were a kid?

When I was a kid, I wanted to be a superhero. That's all the— that's all the Marvel comic books I had. I wanted to be a superhero.

You are Senior Master Sergeant in the US Air Force, so you are superhero to me. Three adjectives describing you as a child?

Three adjectives? Oh man, uh, energy, joyful, athletic. Like, it's very— yeah.

What about as an adult?

As an adult, uh, I would imagine, right, this is trying to be like, okay, uh, just wise, um, open, And I want to stay vulnerable. I want to stay transparent as much as possible.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's true. Okay, we're going to end with this because I want to end with something positive. What is something you are feeling optimistic about these days?

Oh man, I'm feeling very optimistic about the future, what that looks like for my family, uh, whether that's inside the uniform or outside the uniform. I'm looking really forward to it. It's going to be stressful. Yes, I'm looking really forward to just that time with family.

Thank you for your service. And I'm gonna end with this. This is the very last question. What is one word that represents our shared experience on this podcast today?

I would say wisdom.

Wisdom.

Like, there was a lot of wisdom. Like, you were dropping wisdom, Coach Beasy. I appreciate that. I said, oh man, my man, this— so yeah, so it just, it makes it— well, it doesn't even feel like an hour and whatever.

That's true. We spent almost 90 minutes. I didn't mean to, but, uh, thank you so much for giving us wisdom today, and I am almost always so, so grateful. Thanks again, Master— uh, Senior Master Surgeon Dr. Professor Joseph Gross Jr. Thank you, sir. Really appreciate it.

All right, yeah, thank you.

All right, guys, this is one for the book. Uh, again, he doesn't have his book published yet, but when he does, we definitely want the, uh, Senior Master Surgeon to come back on the podcast and, uh, He's really taught us about a lot of things, but I think the number one thing I've learned today is leadership is love. That's really powerful. If you can love your people, the people who report to you, if you can serve them, not them you, I think you are a leader. All right, that's all we have for today. And tomorrow morning, I will have the great pleasure of speaking to a retired US Secret Service senior special agent. He's now a CISO. His name is Richard Latulippe. And he's written a book, Operation Counter-Chaos. So we're gonna be talking from agent to CISO inside the cyber underworld of global threats. That's gonna be tomorrow morning. And then tomorrow afternoon, I will be speaking to James German. He calls himself a warrior poet monk of technology and physics. He's also a LinkedIn Top Voice. We're gonna be talking about from blind spots to breakthroughs, redefining leadership In the Age of Artificial Intelligence. And when we get a chance this week, I'm gonna go back and we're gonna study Proverbs chapter 22. We did 21 the other day. This is not a religious podcast, but we're gonna be studying ancient wisdom and leadership lesson from the book of Proverbs. It's really amazing how those lessons are still applicable today in 2026. All right, that's all I have for you. And again, some of the books we've mentioned today, Start with Why, that's already on our digital bookshelf. I'm going to add today Servant Leadership by Robert Cruise, and also I'm gonna get you Sucker as a movie that is recommended. All right, that is all I have for now. I think we have— okay, Daniel says have a good evening. Thanks again for watching, and I hope to see you tomorrow. Bye for now.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach Beezy. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.