S5:E89🎙️ LIVE with Richard K. LaTulip

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You know, you grow up and today it's a hot topic, right? They talk about indoctrination, you know, they talk about, you know, the loyalty to, to your country and, you know, do you pledge allegiance to the flag? Do you not pledge allegiance to the flag? These schools are wrestling with these ideas right now. When I grew up, it was very much, you know, uh, kind of like God, country, family ideology, right? So, you know, family was one of the most important things that you had to you and your country was also, and the opportunity to serve your country. Uh, which is why I was leaning towards law enforcement and then also, also was leaning towards the military, but that was, that was kind of distant idea, ideas for me. Federal law enforcement was the way that I wanted to go because I felt that in the federal government you would have a, a greater impact on significant crimes that affected communities, affected people individually, or even in the larger, uh, scope of things. So I think that dedication to helping people and, and wanting to help people. Was what drove me to that.

All right, welcome to another special episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast. And before I introduce our guest, as is our custom here, we are going to go through what we call our moment of gratitude. That's where we take just a moment every time we meet to be grateful because we believe you can be suicidal and grateful at the same time. And if you would maybe close your eyes, put yourself in your happy place. For me, it's almost always the beach. I love being at the beach, especially in Hawaii or San Diego. But anyway, and take a deep breath, slow down your nervous system and think about one thing you are grateful for right now. And for me, I am really grateful for all of the people, both in uniform and out of uniform, who really serve a greater cause, right? It's not just about me, myself, and I. It's not just about me getting the big house, the car, and taking care of my needs, which is fine, there's nothing wrong with that. But people who go above and beyond, who really serve the public, again, whether in uniform or out of uniform. And you don't have to work for the government to do that. Even in the cybersecurity field, I think you can have that mission that you are really protecting your community, your country, or at least the infrastructure that is needed, right, for our shared prosperity and advancement across the globe. So I am just very, very grateful for people who are first responders, firefighters, service members, people who are in law enforcement, the police, the FBI, the agents, and even doctors, nurses, and everybody who is really sacrificing their life, including Ministers, pastors, reverends, and all of those people who really, really care about their neighbor and sometimes are willing to put their life on the line for somebody else. Anyway, very grateful for that. So let me know in the comment where you are joining us from, what city and what state if in the US. Now that we've gone global, if you are watching from a country outside of the US, let us know which country. And also let us know what you are grateful for. And if you have a question for my guest, please type it in the comments and we will be answering live. So let me see if I can properly introduce our guest today. Today I am really overjoyed and honored and privileged to be speaking to Richard Latulippe because the question we ask is, what does it take to go from undercover cyber operation across the globe to advising organizations in the boardroom as a CISO? Well, Richard has lived that journey. With over two decades of experience spanning federal law enforcement and enterprise cybersecurity, Richard led undercover cyber investigations targeting global criminal networks, operated internationally across cybercrime hubs and intelligence environments, helped protect critical financial infrastructure, and dismantled illicit economies. Now he advises organizations on threat intelligence, risk, and cyber strategy. He's also the author of the bestselling book, Operation Counter-Chaos: How One Agent Penetrated the Underground Economy, published by CRC Press. This conversation is not going to be theory. It's real-world cyber warfare leadership and decision-making under pressure. So I believe this conversation will be very insightful for both tribes of my audience I care the most about, those in the military and those in cyberspace. All right. Now, without any further ado, please help me welcome to the Leadership Success Podcast, Richard LaChulipe. Good morning, Richard. Salut. How are you doing today?

Good morning. Good morning. I'm doing very well. Thank you for the gracious introduction and welcoming to your show.

Outstanding. And because you have a French name, so I introduce you with your French name, which is Richard LaChulipe. Of course, in America we say Richard. So, uh, one question I have for you: what are you grateful for today?

Yeah, I mean, you know, I heard a lot of the things that you were saying, and so a lot of those things resonate. Obviously, you know, grateful for this country and grateful for the family and the friends, and, you know, of course, you know, grateful to be able to living in a society, a free society that we live in. So, and there's a lot more to be thankful for. These are just some of the the top ones, right? But it runs deep and runs long, to say the least.

Amen to that. And for those who work in law enforcement, national security with the FBI, like you did, Secret Service, or the uniform, we understand that freedom is not free. There are people out there who have paid the ultimate price for that freedom. And that's why I cherish freedom so much. And thank you so much for sharing that. So if I was to ask you, for those who first meet you, what is something about you that most people may not know?

Well, so you first met me, the thing that you might not know is probably, uh, sometimes I'm a quiet person, sometimes I'm also, uh, uh, not outspoken on certain areas. And so you clearly probably wouldn't know that I worked undercover for 3 and a half years. Yeah. I'd have to say that blending into society, you know, from being, say, the wallflower to also being the person that can also have those conversations that span, you know, more than just a single topic and running a lot deeper than most people might assume just by meeting or saying hello to.

That is really impressive. You are like a real-life James Bond. You've been known as the Secret Service legend. Rich child like Tulip. You've really lived a life that most people, I think, would only see in movies. So what first called you to serve in federal law enforcement, especially the Secret Service?

Yeah, I mean, it was a greater purpose, right? I mean, it wasn't, you know, it's not about me. It's about the— it's about serving your, your community. It's about serving society. It's about giving back, you know. It's about sacrifice. And so it's about doing things as well. Something that I always have conversations with people about is there are people that, you know, may want to do certain things, but they're limited and they're limited by maybe the type of upbringing they had, they are, the stress, people handle stress differently. And so I looked at it as I stand in that line ahead of others because I know I can do it and I've trained to do that. And so you're basically putting yourself in the front of danger. You're putting yourself, you know, the frontline. Think about police officers. They're serving society. They're the frontline. They're putting themselves in danger. They don't run away from danger, they run to it. So those were kind of personality traits that I think that I had and that I believed that I was able to say highlight through the work that I've done. And so that kind of, uh, of driving force is what put me in that place, is to be it. Because if you get put in a stressful situation, how are you going to react? And no one knows, right? It's always going to be a situation where until you get there, then you kind of see how you react. And I always felt that I was able to, and, and that's why I ended up doing that. And serving.

Wow, that is really inspiring. Where do you think that drive comes from? Like, even in the military, it's less than 1% of American citizens who ever join. That idea that you are willing to put your life on the line for somebody else, where do you think that comes from?

I mean, for me, I want to say that it was my upbringing, my childhood, where, you know, family, right? The What is— you know, you look at your father and you look at your grandfather and the people who, who are older than you, that are wiser than you, that have a lot of, say, uh, experiences to share with you, and you start to learn from them. And then of course everything else starts intersecting in your life. Teachers, for example, uh, leaders within organizations do, you know. And so all these different influences come together, and, and I think that as I grew up, I just had this overwhelming pride of where I live, the freedoms that I have, the opportunities that, that came along with it. They're all not easy, right? You have to fight for it as well, and you have to establish your own, uh, your own path. And that's kind of what drove me in that direction.

Now, uh, looking at your LinkedIn, I believe you joined the Secret Service January, uh, 2011. I think it was Did, uh, 9/11 impact your decision in any way?

So actually, my, my career on LinkedIn might be a little bit disjointed. So I joined law enforcement in 1995, moved over in 1998 into the Secret Service. So I, I share a story in the book, right? But I can share it here very quickly. It's, you know, the question of where were you when X happened, right? So when, when 9/11 happened, I was in my car driving early to work. Was probably for me, I think around 6 in the morning. And I was— I like to listen to music at that time. And, you know, I didn't like the talk radio and things like this because I wanted to gain a perspective focusing on just what's the mission, what do I have to do today, what's pending. You know, I had a lot of casework at that time. And so I'm driving to work and interruption to the programming. It just says, "An aircraft hit the World Trade Center. Back to the music." That was how quick it was. And then I'm driving for another 5 minutes and I'm like, hmm, that was an interesting way to interrupt your day, so to speak, you know. And they go right back to the music. And so I said, you know what, time to go to a talk radio show to see if there's more to this than what meets the eye. And of course, that's when I really started getting that whole picture. As soon as I got into the office, I ran upstairs, I turned off the TV, and, you know, you started watching it live as it was happening. And from that moment, I picked up the phone and I called my leader. You know, his name was Patrick Sullivan, very inspirational person to me. And I said, look, I love this country, and I know that there are a lot of people who are probably like impacted very badly that are in New York. If you need someone to go there and work and help and provide whatever support you can, wow, send me, I'll go, right? I did that from the very first minute that I saw everything, as I said, send me. And strangely, as it worked out, is in San Diego there were 5 terrorists that worked in San Diego and that lived in San Diego. So it went first to the Joint Terrorism Task Force working there. And then pivoted to going to New York City.

And wow, that is really amazing. You mentioned your leader, uh, Patrick, and how inspirational he was. What characteristic do you think made him so inspirational and impactful?

So he was an individual that, that, uh, didn't put himself first, right? I mean, he put others first. He put you first. He was interested in you as an individual and you as your career. And so he also led through that same passion. And so when you see how, how that person not just carried himself, but how he wanted— he, he got joy from your success, right? I mean, those things made him happy. And him sharing his life and his, you know, trials and tribulations, if you will, and seeing you grow in your journey, those, those things were very inspirational. Those were kind of things that I took from him as an individual to kind of apply to my own style, to my own Yes. You know, say future.

Well, that is really powerful because I read this survey that says that most people, when they leave jobs, they don't leave the company, they leave their immediate supervisor. And I think you really have much more of an impact than you might realize if you are lucky enough to be a boss, a leader within an organization. And 9/11 was quite a trauma for this entire country. And I know at the beginning we talked and you said part of the reason why you joined the Secret Services because of your background. You mentioned your father, your grandfather, your teacher, just the influences you had. You always wanted to serve. But 9/11, I mean, clearly some first responders got killed trying to save others. I mean, this is real life and death. And again, you were willing to run into a burning building. Most people want to run out. You are going in. Even that's the way I even look at not just the military, but even the field of cybersecurity, right? There is an incident, there is a breach, the world is on fire, and we are running into the building and trying to solve the problem and mitigate whatever disaster might be happening. Thinking back, especially for 9/11, and especially knowing that your own life— this is no longer theory, but this could become a probability. Why do you think you still had that, that drive, that desire to really put your life out there for people you don't even know?

That drive, that desire, um, you know, can you say you were born with it? I don't think so. I think that most things you, you just acquire over time, you know, and, and it becomes part of your, your your genetic makeup, if you will. And, you know, that's kind of the whole, you know, when you run to that, say, the undercover. I mean, I was in countries where there was— the backup wasn't necessarily 2 feet from me, right? Backup was entering a building, going up escalators, going through doors, going through— like, it was no— you were there by yourself, right? And so that takes That takes courage. It takes confidence. It takes, you know, believability in your story, the person that you are, right? So all of that, I wish it was just a, you know, like The Matrix. I upload how you can do jiu-jitsu and you do jiu-jitsu, right? That's not how it works. You know, there are people that want to be an undercover agent that still won't be able to say when the stress happens, what do you do? If someone puts a line of coke in you and you're in front of you, and says do it. Do you do it? Do you not do it? How do you handle yourself? Now, if someone puts a gun to the back of my head, of course I'm gonna do it, right? But up until that point, there's always a way around it. But if you're not prepared to handle that, you may just do it, uh, blindly without thought. And so you have to be prepared how to handle those situations at the moment, the heat of the moment, right?

Yes, that is really insightful because it's true, uh, in the Navy, for example, that's really all of the experience I know. We always go as a team and our ethos is everybody goes home together. You always have someone watching your six. But I know as an undercover agent, you are out there by yourself. But not only that, but if your mission fails, usually your country will deny that they even knew you. Like, you are completely on your own. They're not going to say, oh, the CIA agent, the Secret Service agent, this is our guy, we need him back. No, it's like, we don't know you, we never heard of Richard La Tulipe. So you are pretty pretty much all by yourself, and you are still willing to do that for a greater cause. That is really, I don't know, it is quite powerful. And I guess what I'm thinking is, I guess it has to do with your mindset as well. Kind of how do you prepare for something like that? I can only imagine what goes through your mind.

No, the preparation, you know, let's just say that probably college helped prepare me for that, right? And then of course, I think I've had this conversation with a lot of people as well. You know, as you journey through life, you are going to meet all sorts of people, and it doesn't matter how long you meet a person. I guarantee you, you will look at that individual, you will make an assumption about that person, you'll make a judgment about that person. You may even have a short conversation with that person. It also may be years of a relationship that you have with that person as well. But regardless of that, Most individuals who are, let's say, always thinking and always analyzing, you're grabbing little bits and pieces from people. Sometimes it's major chunks, sometimes it's small little chunks. Now you put those into your life, right? I want to be like this, or I don't want to be like this. Because look, even a bad experience, a bad situation where you meet someone who's rude, who's inconsiderate, who's self-serving, right? You, you look at that and go, okay, bad experience, but I'm going to take that and I'm going to say, these these are not what I want to emulate. And then you store those away. And then I hear you see the person who is, you know, someone you idolize, someone that you respect, someone that you look up to, and the things that they do. And you grab those and you put those away in that other side of you where you say, I'm gonna try to take these and be that, right? And, and be better because of it, you know. So that journey, it's a long journey. And I think that, uh, people may not really realize that even a short 1-second interaction, there's takeaways that's possible from that.

That, that is really powerful. Was there maybe a defining moment early in your career that kind of shaped how you view leadership today?

I mean, there's, there's not just one, there's many, right? And I think that everyone's ran across a bad leader, everyone's run across a good leader, you know. And I think in my book I try to highlight the both sides of that, right, where there were inspirational leaders who were able to take a case and without their, say, support and advocacy, it would have died a lonely death on the vine. There are supervisors that I worked with who it seemed at times were putting whatever roadblock or pitfall or little trap along the way that you had to circumnavigate and you had to be able to let's say, have on-the-fly conversations with leadership that were convincing to be able to justify the action. And I felt at times I was always justifying some action that we were doing or, you know, some direction of travel that we were going. So, you know, there wasn't just one, there were, there were many. And I think that perseverance would be a good word to use in that particular moment because If you let it get to you and you can't, say, adopt and overcome, well, you know, you get eaten up by the machine and spit out on the back end, and it's not a good situation.

Wow. Thank you for sharing that, because especially with you— again, I'm comparing your experience with what most people in uniform experience— you've really operated in the shadows, right, protecting national infrastructure. How did that shape your identity as a leader?

You know, I think it's still, it's still shaping me today, right? I mean, you know, I think if you look at frameworks, right, if we were to talk about SOC 2 or we're talking about ISO 27001 going into the world of cybersecurity, these are frameworks that set the stage of how is it you secure your environment, right? And so when you look at that, one of the main key components of those frameworks is never stop learning, never stop, you know, adjusting. You always have to go back and say— and by the way, military, same way, you know, fire for effect, fire for, uh, cause, right? You're adjusting fire, micro adjustments. You're always doing things like this. And if you're not, well, you're going to be losing the game.

Hmm, that is so powerful. So for the young people who are listening right now, those who aspire to command in the military, or one day like you and me become a chief information security officer, what do you think they need to understand about service before they ever step into leadership, based on your outstanding background and experience?

Yeah, services— I think it's interesting because service is not about authority. It's not about, you know, uh, let's just say putting yourself above others. It's about accountability and being accountable to, to those who are underneath you, right? That accountability is, is You're, you're now responsible for that team, and you're also accountable for that team. And you're, you're accountable for your actions, what you do and how you say and how you present yourself. I like to, to say, you know, you lead from the front, not from behind. You know, I don't— kind of interesting with my son, when he didn't do something, it was, I took him running, right? So like, say for example, he was supposed to make his bed in the morning, he didn't make his bed. And so I took him running. One, I went with him, right? So it was, it was me going through those motions as well with him. But it was also hopeful to, to say, okay, here's a reminder of, of, you know, through athleticism, through training, you know, to, to better prepare yourself for the future. Now, he, he didn't like it at the time, but it's funny because now when he's much older, he's, he's He's running track for his high school and he's doing quite well. Wow.

That's amazing. You must be very, very proud. Now, also based on your bestselling book, again, the book is Operation Cowardly Chaos: How One Agent Penetrated the Underground Economy. So important and so timely, especially now with artificial intelligence. I think those bad guys are doing so much damage. But when you infiltrated global cybercriminal network, What surprised you most about how these actors think and operate?

Um, so the, the, the persons that were online, I mean, I'd have to say is you get an idea of what they are supposed to be, and then when you meet them face to face, they're just like every normal individual, right? I mean, they have wants, they have desires, they have likes, they have dislikes, they have family, they have friends, and and they also have fears, which was interesting because, you know, Maxik Jastrzębski, you know, who was one of the biggest characters in the book, right? He didn't like flying alone. And, you know, he— so that was that fear of flying alone or, you know, being, say, able to do something without a companion. So that was kind of an interesting thing. And then also, I think the other thing that surprised me as well is how unprepared organizations were to defend against threats, you know, and how easy it was for cyber criminals. I mean, one cyber criminal was just, he would search, say for example, he would lock himself in the room and then in the morning he would come out and it would be, "Hey, success, you know, I penetrated 18 different networks." because of the lack of security. And even today, I can tell you this, is that the companies that I've either talked to or consulted with or had chats with, you know, two-factor authentication still hasn't been implemented across the organization.

Wow.

Maybe strategically in one place or another, but I mean, not doing just the very basics, it is also very surprising. So I mean, there was a lot. I can say this, but, uh, building the rapport. And by the way, when I worked undercover, it was cross-culture, right? So I was intermingling with mostly people who were born and raised in Southeast Asia and then Eastern Europeans, right? So, and then you bring the American in it, right? So you have these clash of cultures. And very quickly I learned American jokes don't necessarily always sit well internationally. And And you have to kind of— you, you learn very quickly. And again, adjusting is something that I, I talked about earlier. I think that was the same thing where I had to continually adjust based on the cultures. I'm with the people from Southeast Asia, we were drinking Johnnie Walker and we were, you know, eating at Chinese restaurants. I was with the people from Eastern Europe and we were drinking vodka and we were eating at, you know, Western style or even Eastern European style restaurants. Really kind of interesting dynamics and very, let's just say, when you think back on it and relive it, kind of a little humorous as well.

That is really fascinating. What do you think most cybersecurity professionals still misunderstand about cybercriminals?

I think they underestimate some of their capabilities. I think that they, you know, You know, maybe also to trust, right? Sometimes we're, we're too trusting, you know, whereas— and maybe we're also a little bit naive on things. Like, we first of all trust that it won't happen to us, right? So the naive— naivety mixed with that trust. Like, I believe it's everyone else but me. And when it happens to you and, and when, when the bad day occurs you might be unprepared for it because you haven't mentally gotten there yet because of the way in which you're kind of operating in a normal state. And so I think the conversation, at least I have when I speak at conversations or conferences, I'm sorry, but when I speak at conferences, I'm talking about resiliency and I'm talking about the opportunities to say, look at your network as a potential already compromised. And how is it that you know you can recover and how quickly can you recover? Because look, we look at these risks that impact our business and it's about basically reducing as much risk as we can. But when it happens, it's about being able to get the business because the survivability of the business is what's most important. And that's really the, the bottom line of my job is to make sure business survives. Even when there's a disruption.

Yes, back to resilience, really back to the basics. I guess another question I have for you, working in the undercover operation, I am imagining it's not always black or white, you work a lot in the gray. One wrong move can cost lives, just like it is in the military. So how did you make those decisions? In high-stakes, ambiguous environment?

We had a lot of conversations beforehand. So in speaking with the attorneys, in speaking with leadership, and then also reviewing our policy, right? You want to— it's always funny how even at this time, before you even go and have a, say, challenge presented to you, you're looking at what the policy is. Because, you know, policy is what's going to ultimately hang you in the, in in the future. If you violate policy, regardless of where you're at and what you're doing, these are going to have repercussions at the end of the day. Good news was the Secret Service had a very, very, say, uh, short policy that I've summarized in the book, basically— not exactly, but it was about 5 pages long— that amounted to you could do undercover work, right? So when the conversation came up about, you know, well, what do you do if someone presents drugs to you? Uh, well, it doesn't say anything. Right? What do you do if they talk about girls? Well, doesn't really say anything, you know. And so I was a little bit more free, but still you're operating— you don't want to operate in such a unique framework where you're completely a loose cannon. So you as your individual comes back into this. And, and the way I looked at it is when I was in college, I remember people that I would hang out with, some of them socially and some of them would be more kind of, say, academically. And when you mixed, say, the academic with the social, you completely saw a person who was out of character. And so they didn't fit in, right? They didn't fit in. They didn't blend well. They would pick up the newspaper when you have the top 40 hits going off and everyone's dancing and drinking and they're reading a newspaper. Well, that person didn't get called a second time to come and hang out at the party because they weren't fitting in. They didn't, you know, belong. So the way I looked at it is you have to have some vices. And I drank, and, you know, I like to, uh, like to go out. I like to play the pool bar games. And we also conducted business as well. And, and so all of those things kind of made you attractive as not just a person to socialize with but also to do business with and to be, you know, cold again, right? Uh, I wasn't necessarily the full life of the party, you know, wasn't dancing on the bar tops, but I also wasn't not, uh, you know, doing these things. So it was a, it was a huge balance, and you had to think of what would you do if you were in that scenario. Would you do it? Would you not do it? And so because I drank and because I, I would meet people and because I would go out and do all sorts of crazy stuff and scuba diving and jet skiing. And you mentioned beaches, right? So beaches were a very popular place to go.

Yes. Wow, that is really quite fascinating. I hope somebody in Hollywood makes a movie out of your book. But another question I have is kind of leadership in the shadow. Most of the time in the military, at least in my own career, everything we do is in the open. We get awarded for the mission when we do a good job, Bravo Zulu, and all of that. But for you guys, It looks like the mission didn't even take place officially, right? You are doing a lot of things that really safeguard all of our security, but really you don't get rewarded for it. There is no spotlight, at least not in public. You can't tell your wife or your kids, you can't celebrate. And I guess the question I have for you is, how do you lead when there is no spotlight, no recognition, and the mission itself must remain completely Invisible.

Yeah, I mean, look, uh, if you're looking for a reward as a motivation to do something, you're probably in the wrong line of business, right? That's just the bottom line. Rewards are something that come as a result of the work that you do, but you should not expect them. And if they don't come, you're your own spotlight, right? You know what you did, you know what you accomplished, you know. And by the way, the people you work with, your You know, if it's a military operation and you're going behind enemy lines, you know, uh, what is it, the phrase that they say sometimes, like, the awards ceremony dies a lonely death in some nondescript government building in Washington, DC, and the medal never leaves the closet, right?

Yeah.

You know, so the ceremony is just the people that you did whatever it is you did with. And, and that service, I think, and that, um, uh, that drives— I obviously tons of people, not just me, but that drives a lot of people who are very successful in these. And like I said, yes, if you're, if you're waiting for the award, if you're, you're going to be breaking your arm patting yourself on the back. Uh, you shouldn't be— that shouldn't be your driving force, that shouldn't be your motivation. Yes. Um, the motivation is ultimately as well, I know what I did had a, a massive effect on stopping victimization of people. That was a reward as well.

Absolutely. Uh, I, I really like that, uh, mindset. So for corporate leaders who are listening to us right now, what can they learn from Carver's operation about trust, discipline, and execution?

Well, I mean, this is where you have to— you have to know the people that you have, and you have to believe in the people that you have Because again, you know, you're getting, say for example, your engineer, right? Those people sometimes are, you're not over their shoulder. And by the way, micromanaging in today's environment does not work. I don't think it's ever worked, right? Where you're breathing down the neck of your people. I mean, it signals that you don't trust them. It signals that you don't believe in their ability to do unless you're basically the thumb on the person's back or something like this. And so, you know, I think the other thing they say, what, micromanaging basically allows people to watch good talent walk out the door, you know. So having that trust and confidence in the people that they're, you know, I want to say it was again Pat Sullivan I bring up as an example, but you know, one of the comments that he made to me is, you know, I see a lot of people sitting in the office and a lot of people come into my office and they talk about what they're doing. He's like, I don't know where you are most of the day, I don't know what you're doing, but I see I see the results, and I, and I don't need to know because I know that you're, you're doing the job, doing it. So your work will show through, right? It will come to the top. It bubbles to the top because it has to. If you weren't doing your job as an engineer, say for example you were, uh, say the Splunk engineer, if you're not setting the firewall, well, they're gonna know right away that you're not doing your job, right?

Yes. Wow. All right. I want to get into your best-selling book. And first question I'm gonna ask is why this book had to be written. But before I do, again, Operation Counter-Chaos, let's take some questions from our live audience. I really love interacting with these great folks. So we have Terence, he says, great to see you, Bizzy. Daniel, a great member of our tribe, good afternoon from Midland, Florida. And I also broadcast on Rainbow, it says it's a beautiful time to be alive. Okay, I think they're using a fake alias. Okay, Terence says, you know, you finally arrive when you can tell a joke in another language that lands well. That is true. All right, first question we have, Daniel has a question for you. He's asking, Richard, in your undercover work, you had to navigate technical heights, environments where deception was the standard. How do you translate that ability to spot logic glitches in criminal network into building a robust human firewall for a corporate boardroom today?

Yeah, I mean, a lot, I think, to unpack in that question, to say the least, right? So, um, uh, technical hides. So one of the things— I'll just go to my undercover kind of— and I had this question before, I hope that somehow this answers the question ultimately. Um, but on one level, it's how did you prepare technically in order to, say, convince the, the adversary or the, the person you were going after that you were who you said you were? And basically, I was a buyer of stolen data. And so how did I set that up? I did nothing that anyone that would be in my role wouldn't do. So basically, I, if I made my laptop too hard of a target, then of course the bad guys might get suspicious and say, wait a minute, you just buy stolen credit cards and you use them, but yet you have the most advanced and most secure laptop in the world, right? Conversely, I did not mix, right, I did not mix my real life, say, say, with my undercover. My undercover laptop only had undercover stuff on it.. And so anything to do with my alternate identity, Richard Druck, I strategically put photos and stuff like this of only usually me on beaches or here and there and doing stuff like this. Um, so that was how I technically kind of took care of that. And then, you know, logical glitches in terms of, say, the criminal networks. Uh, this is the human error, right? Uh, where people make mistakes. They— and again, you can translate this to either side of the of the coin, whether it be the cyber criminal or it be the, the technical, say, team member on your cybersecurity operations team. And so you think about the logical, the human error, right? When cyber criminals operated initially, it wasn't like they went to school how to be a cyber criminal. And so they overshared, and when they overshared and you were able to recover that data, Well, now you are getting snippets into who they were, their real-world lives, right? Um, it's same kind of thing is if you oversell yourself as a, uh, say for example a Splunk engineer, but you only know how to use Trellix, well, it's going to be very, very easy. Now, how do you translate that to the boardroom, right? In terms of today, uh, you really have to know your board. I cannot even tell you If I told you today what you should tell the board, I guarantee you'll go into that board meeting and they'll be like, what the hell are you talking about? Yeah, you need to know your board, what they want, what they desire, and what resonates with them. Because not every— if you think mean time to detection, mean time to response, uh, some may be very into that. They may be very technical boards and they want to know those things. Other boards are going to be Uh, did we lose any money? Uh, how much are we— what's our business expanding? How is the merger and acquisition going? Uh, the major contract that you're looking over here, what's the status with this? Yeah, but sir, don't you know that we had 30 detections? Yeah, whatever, dude. Um, yeah, maybe you want to say not that we had 30 or 300 or 3,000 detections, but maybe you want to say is, uh, we identified a gap in our, in our let's say, risk profile, and this is what's been exposed. You'll catch their attention on that one because why? It's not about how many— it's about what can have a negative impact to the business. Because remember, the board has a fiduciary responsibility to, uh, understand that health of the organization. Where are the gaps? Where are the risks? What's going to let's say, uh, destroy the business ultimately.

Yes, well, that is really fascinating. Now, uh, Terence Sadler, one of my Shipmates, is asking, having a good team requires you to really know your team and to be known by your team, right? What do you think is the most important thing you can do in order to grow a good team responsible for security?

Yeah, I mean, I think it can't all be just about the job, right? I mean, there needs to be— you need to build a culture. You need to build, you know, uh, uh, let's say, a reason for being a team, right? So, you know, whatever you can do to, to build a good culture, to build good camaraderie, to build good teamwork. I think, you know, if you, if you have too many lone wolves on your organization, it can become very disjointed very quickly, and then you'll get no collaboration. You can also have a lot of friction that that can create. So A team working together, joint step, lockstep, I think way better than disparate.

All right, let's get with your book, Operation Counter-Chaos: How One Agent Penetrated the Underground Economy. Why did this book have to be written, Richard?

So I think the biggest thing was there is a misconception of what undercover work is actually about. Even myself, right? When I went to the— when I went, say, first into it and thinking about doing it, where did I develop my idea of what undercover work was? Well, I watched Donnie Brasco, or I watched a TV show. And, you know, so you have this romantic view of what undercover work is. And quite frankly, there's a lot— there's personal sacrifices that go into, you know, being an undercover agent. There is professional sacrifices of going into being an undercover agent. There's also a high value of risk, you know, in terms of what it is that you're doing, what is you're trying to accomplish. And so there's also, let's just say, professional challenges beyond the personal challenges. And so those professional challenges I mentioned a little earlier ago, but I'll just bring back up, is, you know, Do you have everyone at all levels supporting you 100%? Or occasionally are you getting friction from, you know, component A or component B? And I think that, you know, when you get that friction, it depends on when you get that. Example I'll pull out is the on-the-ground supervisor who was in Macau with us while we were operating. And I was, you know, working with the bad guys. And I was on site with the bad guy, so to speak. And I get a phone call from my supervisor and he's like, what are you doing? And my answer is, what do you mean, what am I, what am I doing? I'm like, I'm working undercover. He's like, yeah, but what did you do today? And I said, do we really need to go through this right here, right now? And so I explained to him the things that I did very quickly. Obviously we were in a loud bar. I kind stepped off to the side. You know, I made it seem as if, hey, my crew is calling me from San Diego, so I gotta answer the phone, right? And so, uh, you know, answering all those phone calls. And then of course at the very end is, well, we're cutting the operation short, and so flights are early tomorrow morning and it's getting close to midnight, so you've got to go, you, you've got to go to bed. And I'm, I'm sitting there saying to myself, who goes to bed? Who then goes back into that room and says Hey, it's my curfew. I'm, you know, at the time, whatever, say I'm 32, right? Ah, yeah, yep, it's bedtime. It's midnight. I have a flight. You know, we're talking to people that have little responsibility oftentimes. You know, they wake up at noon, they wake up at noon. If they miss their flight, they miss their flight. You know, so navigating that was a very tricky path forward. And, you know, so I tell a lot of those stories., within, within the book. And, you know, some of the backstories as well, as well of what went on behind the scenes and stuff like this. And so I felt people need to know. They need— and, and funny enough too, I remember when it was happening in real time and I'd tell people and I'd say, one day this has got to be written into a book. Yes. Now, because I don't think people— people want to believe that their government is competent.

Right?

And, and to tell people that, well, there's, there's cracks in the foundation, especially then, I don't know that it wouldn't— went over well. Obviously a lot's changed since that time frame to now, but I felt even then it wouldn't matter. People need to know what's going on, and they need to know from like a little bit of an insider's perspective. And, you know, the investigative mission, we did great things in the Secret Service, always did great things with the the investigation. But, you know, it's not always— let's just say, uh, it's not always cheery and, and rosy pictures, right? But that's business at times. It's gonna get muddy, it's gonna get dirty. And but it's the end where you end up at the, you know, the end of the journey.

That is really quite fascinating. And also think, for most people, when they think of the Secret Service, all I think about is your job is to protect the life of the President of the United States or the VIPs. They think that's pretty much all you do. So seeing you doing investigation undercover, just like the CIA or some of the greatest police forces there, that's— I think it's kind of important for taxpayers to kind of know how our money is spent and a little bit, whatever is unclassified and could come to the open like you did in your book. So we have just an insight about our government. I think that's quite important.

Wow.

Now, without giving too much away, what was one of the most intense or defining moments from that operation?

I guess, you know, like, personal risk-wise, I mean, uh, personal reward-wise, there was a lot of things. I, I think one of the stories, as a matter of fact, is the opening chapter, kind of sets the stage where, you know, uh, like, kind of a grab, if you will, to bring the reader in to say, okay, this has some pretty cool stuff to it, right? So you set the stage of who you are and what you are, and you, you, you tell a story, and, and all undercover Anyone that's going to go undercover has to come up with this backstory, if you will. And now you have to live by that, and you'll also die by that. And so you just— once you set it, once you create it, you go with it. And so your strategies can be anything in the world.

I—

the question, hey, why did you use Rich? Why didn't you use Kevin? Or why didn't you use something else? I said, well, we drank a lot when we were hanging out, right? And so the one thing that I knew would happen anyways. And I said, if I picked a fictitious first name and I'm sitting at a bar drinking and someone's going, hey Kevin, hey Kevin, hey Kevin, and I'm not responding, then you can have some really big problems, right? And so I wanted to make sure that I know when you say Rich, yeah, I'm, I'm looking, right? And so that was that first setup. And then the next thing is, you know, your backstory, your, your parents, where do they live, your— do you have brothers and sisters? Um, do you have family that comes from wherever it is in the world? And so anyways, I decided that my, my life, real world, and the fictitious world will run together, kind of weaving together. You know, I'm going to change locations. So if it was Chicago, I would change it to Kansas City. If it was, uh, you know, uh, I don't— and, and I had one brother and stuff like this. And so, but now working online, you know, The world online is completely different. I can be an elephant, I can be Bill Clinton if I want to online. Yes, you know, until you see me, you're not— well, now with deepfakes, I can even still be it, right? But this was before deepfakes were a thing, right? So, so long as the camera didn't turn on, you can be whatever you wanted to be online. And so you also can share what you want to share. And so in building the relationship, I did share a lot of information, and I did— and sometimes I didn't share information. And so I'm now sitting, if you can imagine, on the balcony of, of Maxit's room in Dubai overlooking the Al Burj Hotel. It's probably like 2, 3 in the morning. We drank, uh, you know, we finished the bottle and we were going on to beer, basically emptying the, the mini refrigerator, if you were— the minibar, if you will. And so I started telling him a story of how my brother got into an accident and how he broke both of his arms and his legs. This is a real story. I changed some of the, the, the minor details to it, but I, I— but it was a true story, right? Really happened, real life. But it didn't happen in Saint John, it happened somewhere else, right? So he looks at me and says Huh, you told me you didn't have any brothers or sisters. Well, now, you know, especially knowing who you are and what you're doing and where you came from, you've just been called out right out in the open. And so the hairs in the back of your neck, you know, they stand up, you know, the, the fight or flight thing can kick in almost immediately. What do you do? You know, without missing a beat, I just looked at him and said, well, yeah, I lied to you. You know, but that was when we were online. I didn't know who you are, you didn't know who I was. Why would I tell you anything that was true? Yeah, you know, he looks at me, he's like, yeah, I believe that. Because why? Wow, that was the internet. You could do whatever you wanted to do. Yes, right, to a certain point.

Wow, that's really something. And also, not talking about cybersecurity, sometimes one thing I tell people when I teach is, uh, it may be a good idea for you to have maybe an alter ego or a fictitious character. For example, when you sign up even for newsletter stuff, they ask you for your name and it asks for your date of birth and a whole bunch of very specific questions that might be used to recover your password or something. So of course, don't use your real birthday, but think of a persona or something. This way you're going to remember what's that birth— your fake birthday is or whatever characteristics that you give, but it has nothing to do with your personal life. I think sometimes that may help people kind of COVID their tracks online a little bit better.

But what I did, and I'm sure other people have done some things, is I combined my past with the future. And so I used, say for example, something I already knew, my brother's birth month and birth date. And then I used my, my date of birth, my year of birth, right? So you wouldn't be able to say, put it all together. So my street address was a combination of my college address and a San Diego address. And so I even remember running into a San Diego police detective who was searching for me, and he went to my addresses. And, and, and then I, I'm sitting there going, hey, just so you know, you could drop that case, uh, that you're looking at because that's me. You're like— he's like, oh, thank God. He goes, because everything has been good. The addresses, the Social Security number, it's like, yeah, I couldn't find anything. It was like the guy was good, right? Um, and so, but yeah, I had to create all of that stuff, and then I had to memorize certain aspects, and there was just no choice. And so that's what I did, because that was another thing too, right? You know, if you're at the, say for example, check-in counter for whatever, or you're at the hotel you're talking, and the— and say the person that's standing next to you and they're asking you questions, I can't— I can't be fumbling around. I can't be going, um, my Social Security number, or, uh, well, yeah, I'm asking you, right? That you should know this. And so repeating questions are obviously a sign of lying and a sign of deceitfulness. And so you had— I had to be able to say, yeah, 123 Main Street. You know, uh, San Diego, California. My zip code was 92111, right? Done. And so those were the things that I had to do.

Yeah. Wow. So what does the average person not really understand about how massive and really sophisticated the cybercrime economy is?

Well, I would say 10 years ago, uh, people were a lot more in the dark than they are today, but But I mean, it's a multibillion-dollar operation. I mean, wow. I think that when you look at the complexity of it and the drive of it, where it webs to, you know, it's a little bit— it's relatable because everyone's seen it, right? The iceberg theory, you know, what's above and what's below. And it runs deep. It runs very deep. And so I'd say The things that you think are okay today— I'm gonna go buy a DJI drone, I'm gonna fly the drone around my neighborhood, and I'm gonna fly it around here and whatever else like this, you know, and not really at least appreciating the fact that the technology comes from China and that it's been identified as a secret channel to send data back to China, you know. Um, and so understanding where the threat is and how deep it goes and how massive it is. I think it's something that there is some naivety. The CCTVs, people are worried about the facial technology that can be used with the CCTVs, but they're not looking at, well, okay, facial technology may be, say, a privacy area where we have a lot of concerns about the privacy, but never mind the fact that it's also a secret channel sending data back to China. You know, and that we still use these things and that we still want inexpensive versus maybe built secure, safe. We talk about secure coding, right? Secure by design coding. And we talk, but we don't talk about the hardware. The hardware can be compromised till the day it was born and we're worried about the secure coding. Well, the device is compromised that the code is on, so it doesn't matter. Nothing else matters, right? So it's very important about getting key technology back to a trusted environment where not just the software that's going on the device, but the hardware that's built within the device is as safe and secure. Because quite frankly, if you don't have one, you don't have the other.

That is so true. And what leadership lesson from Operation Counter-Chaos apply directly to today's cybersecurity? Security leaders, you think?

I mean, uh, the, the, the lesson obviously is, is to trust your people and trust, you know, the process and, and believe in that, right? And, and follow it through. And so, you know, by following through with the operation, you know, success was achieved. And, you know, remember, along the way it's going to be little road bumps here there. You can't be discouraged by that. You have to, you have to adapt and overcome and achieve.

Wow. Now, talking about people, what did you learn about people, both the criminals and the investigator, through this experience?

I mean, criminals aren't ready to be criminals, and leaders aren't ready to be leaders. And, and that's something that you learned, especially in times of stress, right? You know, when you, when you talk about stress when it's happening. You know, when everything is going well and there are no problems, then yeah, everyone, you know, success breeds happiness, if you will. You know, but those people that can handle stressful situations and be able to adapt and overcome and to be able to, let's say, uh, quickly adjust the, the tactics and make it work, right? Those are very, very— those are, those are qualities I think that leaders need today. Because one thing I didn't like sometimes that I ran into in the Secret Service was this concern about who above me is going to think about the decision that I make now and how can that be career limiting. Well, now you're frozen in time because you're worried about something that you can't control in the moment, in the stressful moment that you need to be. Right? And so that petrifies people. And then now, as opposed to getting the answer that you need to be able to operate effectively, you, you have a frozen basically person in time because they're, they're, uh, if I say this, then maybe John says that. Well, maybe I— and then that's going to now lead to not going with you what you believe is the best direction of travel, but what you— the person above you believes is going to be And you can't know that. No one can know that, right?

Yes. Wow, that is quite insightful. Again, everybody, the book is Operation Counter-Chaos: How One Agent Penetrated the Underground Economy, and that's by CRC Press. Now let me ask you the million-dollar question: if you had to distill the book into one lesson for leaders, what would that be?

Um, I guess it could be one lesson. I guess the lesson is perseverance, right? Um, I think that would be something that I would think about is, is very, uh, you know, making sure the mission is successful, right? And, and make it— and look, when you go into business The mission is about the business. It's about the identification of risks. It's about reducing risks. It's about creating resiliency, you know, and, and it's about making sure that, that at the end of the day, despite disruptions, despite problems, despite trips here and there, yeah, the, the business remains uninterrupted.

Hmm. And also, when you talk about operational risk, kind of like in the military, how does that relate, let's say, to technology or cyber risk?

Well, I mean, look, technology is— you can't avoid it in today's day and age, right? Technology is everywhere around us. And it's, you know, I'm still— well, they have the glasses, but I'm waiting for the chips to come in, right? Where, you know, the movies can be realized. From the past. And so I think that use technology to be protective. I mean, AI, right? You know, funny conversation about AI is people believe that AI began 2 years ago. AI's been around. I mean, think about Clippy from Microsoft. That was a form of AI that was being administered. And so use it to be a force multiplier, but don't become so trusting in it that it it overtakes everything that you do. You still need to be, you know, using it as the tool that it is, as opposed to, well, you know, I need to write a paper, write a paper about, I don't know, Alexander the Great. Okay, here it is, done. I did nothing else other than just tell AI to do it. I think you need to still use it as a research tool. I think you need to use it as a force multiplier. I think you need to— you, but you need to control it. You need to, um, let's just say I like to use AI when I write to help me with the grammar, to help me with the punctuation, you know, uh, but I still like to write, you know, just like I did my whole book, right? I wrote the book, but then I used AI to be my editor, so to speak, and to be able to be that person that caught, you know, even when I spelled words right, you know, it read it and said, well, that word doesn't make sense, you might want to look at it. I'm like, oh, you know what, I mean to I spelled it right, but it's not used correctly, right? So use it. I mean, technology is a— we can't ignore it. Embrace it, use it, rely on it as a full force multiplier of making you more effective and efficient at your job. Criminals are doing it every day. They're using that as a means and methods. And as you're right, we're in, we're in a GenTech AI, we're going beyond GenTech AI. Quantum computing is right around the corner. And I think that the thing to be aware of is, you know, the bad guys are trying to create their own LLMs to be able to make novel malware. And I haven't seen any evidence that they're there yet, but we're getting closer. And so you need to use that technology accordingly. If you're not, you might be behind the curve.

Wow, that is so insightful. And from what you mentioned too, I remember even just now the spell checker in Microsoft Word, that's a type of artificial intelligence as well. But definitely, I guess the last 3, 4 years, generative AI has just taken over the entire industry and really changed a lot. So much so that now we are saying that we are living in the age of artificial intelligence. It is quite amazing. Okay, we are technically out of time. Time. Um, can you give me 5 more minutes before we end, or do you have to go?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, okay. Let me see if we, we can land, uh, this down. So one thing I, uh, wanted to ask is for this very last segment, what do you believe is one of the greatest lessons you have ever learned in life, in leadership, in general?

Yeah, I think, you know, when I moved from government to private business, I— and then not just even that, even throughout my career, communication, right? Um, and talking a language that people understand. If you're talking around them, above them, between them, say for example what I think a lot of security professionals like to do because security is our bread and butter, is we talk about the security, we don't talk how it impacts or intertwines with the risks or with the business. And so not translating it to impact. And that is a key component, I think. And that's something that I had to learn over the course of not just being organized, right? Organized is another thing that I had to learn is become organized, but also become, you know, better at communication because I found that, you know, especially in emails, they can be the worst emails, right? Because quite frankly, You write an email, in your mind you have your intended outcome, but once it leaves you and it goes to the recipient, now they read it as they want it to be. And so even though you may not have been dismissive, or even though you may not have intended to be rude or something like that, the reader reads it. So being able to communicate, being able to, you know, translate what it is that your goals are to other persons and speaking their language is very important.

Wow.

And, uh, what do you think is the secret of your success? Not just in the Secret Service, but later on you become a, uh, CISO, best-selling author, and everything else you're doing, even in consulting. Why do you think you are so successful?

Education, right? Uh, continuing learning, never stopping. I mean, I got my master's degree from Boston College, uh, just a year and a half ago, right? So I'm You know, I don't want to say how old I am, but I'm 52 anyway. And so, uh, so the, the ultimate thing is I went at age 50 to go and get my master's degree. So never stop learning, never stop adjusting, never stop, you know, reading. Uh, I think that that's your key component of life because, you know, if we lock ourselves in what we are comfortable with and not being— not moving to that uncomfortable area, you're never going to grow, you're never going to develop, you're you, you just kind of get stuck in neutral, so to speak, and you stay at a singular place.

Absolutely. And talking about learning and reading, so in addition to your own book, you did recommend this one, The E-Myth Revisited by Michael Gerber. Why should my audience read this book?

I mean, look, there's very big mature organizations that have a lot of process, and then there's that area that doesn't, and you got to learn both. And so if you start there and you be, you know, you, you start journey of learning there, you know, it's going to help you along the way. And by the way, if you think you're just going to work for one company, maybe you're lucky and you do, and that's great. But if you move around in the private organ— say, private world, and you're moving from org to org, you're going to find you're at different levels of maturity. You're also going to be sometimes in a startup, sometimes you're going to be a mid-tier company, and sometimes maybe you could be in a Fortune 500 company. But understanding those and understanding the say, challenges that you faced to, to build even a small business. It's not easy, right? And, and you need to know, you need to know how to be able to do it and take it from someone that, that has experienced it, right? Learning from others.

Yeah, it's like I said, I think it's 8 out of 10 businesses fail, right, within the first 5, 5 years. Um, but so what are you learning this day, Richard?

Um, well, now obviously it's a lot. I, I need to start learning more about quantum computing, but, you know, it was a lot of learning about AI and its use cases and how it operates, and also securing AI. You know, I think everyone knows already the story of— I think it was Chevy or another car company that had their chatbot going out and agreed to sell a vehicle for a dollar, right? You know, not— obviously business leads the way and sometimes pushes security aside. This is where also where I would say a key component. Going same thing, right? Communication being a key component.

Yes.

As a, say, security leader, an information security leader in an organization, bridging the gap between all the different verticals within your business so that you can understand what's important to that business, right? Once you understand what's important to that business or that line of business, then now you can start protecting that line of business. And then also you gain an advocate from the individual who's running that organization, because why why. They know you have their best interests at heart. You move from being a cost center to a value-add center. And then when you're asking for, say, a bigger budget to secure the business, you gain advocates at that table who are saying, no, no, they need it because if they don't secure this part of our business, here's the outcome, right?

The business outcome.

Powerful.

Okay, to end the show, let me ask you, uh, If, uh, you had one and only one day to live, what would you have liked your final contribution to be?

Well, I mean, I think it would be sitting on a beach somewhere, uh, just catching, watching the sunset go, right? I mean, my— I, I've done, I think, a lot in my life. I think that I had this question, you know, if your life ended today, you know, would you be sad? I said, look, you know what I've done in my life? I've done more in my life than most people than I could have imagined. And so I'm happy about all the things I've accomplished. There's still more to come, right? I'm writing a second book, and, and, you know, I'm moving forward in that direction. And so I have to stay around long enough to hopefully watch the 49ers win another Super Bowl, you know, God willing, uh, you know.

But, uh, God willing. And talking about your second book, when it comes out, I definitely want you to come back, back here. We read a lot of books And maybe we can help you become a bestseller again. Now, for this book, anybody's watching now from Hollywood, Los Angeles, over, hello, hello. If they wanted to turn this into a movie, who would you like to play the Amen character?

Well, a lot of people, when I'm out and running around town, they always say I look like Bryan Cranston, but I think he's a little bit too old, right? You know, so I watched White Lotus not too long ago, and I'm blanking on his first name, but Schwarzenegger's son, I think, would make a great person to play a younger me in that time frame.

That is pretty, pretty cool. Yeah, he is really taking after his dad, doesn't he? All right, so that's pretty much all of the questions I had. So now the thing is, how can we add value back to you? Thanks again for spending extra time with us today, which we really appreciate that. So what can my audience do to add value back to you?

I mean, look, I'm a person that loves to collaborate. I love to communicate. And so if you have anything, you need anything, hit me up on LinkedIn. You can go to my website, latulipconsulting.com. You can check out my blog. I'm posting things there all the time of contributions that I'm doing to the cybersecurity world and then also to publications. And so I think those would be a couple of different ways. And then also pick up my book, read the book. And share it and write reviews. I mean, uh, feedback on what I've written is, is, as we say at Recorded Future, is a gift. And so, uh, give me the feedback because I can use that on my second book, which is going to be a very interesting book because it's where the, the hunter becomes the hunted. I'll leave it at that.

That is really, really cool, very dramatic. Another idea for the Hollywood movie for For sure, hopefully they become more blockbusters. Okay, so this is pretty much the end, but I guess if I can ask you one last question is, and I love to end with this question, if you could go back, right, and give a piece of advice to your 17-year-old self, standing at the edge of this incredible career and life you've had, what would you say to 17-year-old Rich?

Well, at age 17, I was still in high school, and I think that I was pretty much a wallflower. And, you know, I didn't— I, I mean, I just kind of lived through that life, but I didn't, I didn't, I didn't do what most people do kind of in high school. I waited, I think, I guess, until my college career. But, you know, ultimately, uh, it would be learn— it would be learn a second language, because I think also in my high school career, if you will, I looked at Spanish as an opportunity to learn Spanish, and I said Why? I'm learning, you know, ¿dónde están los baños? and ¿cómo se llama? you know, and "Meghan always rich." I'm like, how is this going to be helpful to me later in my life? So I dismissed it. I didn't put a lot of effort into it. And then of course my punishment was starting, you know, after college by getting a job with U.S. Border Patrol where I had to learn Spanish, you know. And so, but then this was a little bit more like a law enforcement style Spanish. And then later, later in my life I did some remodeling, flipping houses and stuff like this. And so all the people I was communicating with, they spoke Spanish. And so I had to continue to develop Spanish. But 17-year-old Rich, I would say, focus on a second language, learn as much as you can about languages, because I think it's very good, something we can't dismiss. And maybe I would have learned French as well.

Yes, especially with your last name. Most people who are francophone would think that you speak French. Yeah. Definitely. All right, so this is pretty much it. But is there a question I should have asked you, Rich, that I didn't get a chance to ask? Anything else you wanted to share before we end the show?

No, I think we've covered a lot of ground. I just want to restate, thank you for having me as a guest. I really enjoyed it. It was a fun time. I hope your audience enjoyed it. And again, please share it with everyone else. And if you are running a podcast, reach out. Happy to be on your show.

Fantastic. And I always like to end on a very optimistic Dengiz, what is something you are feeling optimistic about these days?

Well, I'm feeling optimistic about the economy.

Good, good.

I think that's going to turn around.

Fantastic. All right, the very last question and this ends the show. What is one word that represents our shared experience on this podcast today? One word.

Wonderful.

Wonderful. Well, I'm so, so grateful to the legendary Secret Service agent Richard Bob Fabien Zinga, okay, La Tulipe, French name. He was right here, and thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, sir. And again, I want to encourage everybody to get a copy of your bestselling book, Operation Carter Cares, especially those who are in cybersecurity. I think it's important for us to understand how the underworld works and what we are doing as far as security controls that might prevent some of those breaches from occurring. Thanks again for your time and your wisdom today. Really appreciate it, Rich. Have a good day.

Thank you. Thank you. Take care.

All right, everybody. So this is it for today. Again, follow Rich on LinkedIn, Richard La Tulipe, and his website latulipeconsulting.com, and get a copy of his book, Operation Counter-Chaos. Later today, in about an hour, I will be speaking to James German, known as the warrior poet monk of technology and physics. He's also a LinkedIn Top Voice. We're gonna be speaking about "From Blind Spots to Breakthrough: Redefining Leadership in the Age of Artificial Intelligence." So we're gonna be doing that in about an hour or so. And thanks again for watching, and I hope to see you in about an hour. Bye for now.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.