S5:E9🎙️ LIVE with RADM Melissa Bert, U.S. Coast Guard (Ret.) (Multi Tracks Audio)

Hi, I'm John Maxwell. When the top companies in the world are looking for trainers, speakers, and coaches, there's one name that stands above the rest, and that's Maxwell Leadership. Our certified team members have gotten proven results for companies all over the globe, and our reputation I'm proud to say is second to none. Some of our members have risen to the top of their profession, including the one you're going to meet today. I proudly introduce you to my friend, Bob Fabien Zinga.

Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ, where we help you lead with purpose and succeed with impact. If you're ready to grow into the kind of leader others want to follow, this podcast is for you. If you're determined to elevate your success and leave a lasting legacy, this podcast is for you. As my mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell, reminds us, everything rises and falls on leadership. Our goal is simple: to inspire you, challenge you, and equip you with insights that can transform the trajectory of your leadership journey. Welcome aboard to another episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast. The Coast Guard Podcast with Coach BZ.

I was in school in Atlanta, Georgia. My father was a civil rights lawyer. My mom's a teacher and my father thought it would be cool. He was in the Coast Guard at the end of World War II. He's 93 now and he liked the idea that the Coast Guard does good things for Americans. I did it really just because he suggested it. And I, there was a cover of a magazine, the Smithsonian, I think, that I saw with a woman on a sailboat who was a Coast Guard Academy cadet. And it looked really cool because I had never sailed before or really been on the water at all. So it was so, it looks so exotic to me and kind of like it would be an exciting experience. So I went to the Coast Guard Academy and that's how I came into the service. So the application process is actually a little easier than the other service academies because it's not appointment-based. But the result of that, I guess, is that people tend to go there who are from New England and they're sort of accustomed to that sailboat sailing lifestyle and people from Florida and the West Coast. It's not— although we do have some people from the Midwest, it's probably more of a coastal attraction. But we're doing really well in terms of more women now. When I went, there were only only 10% women, which was not— that's not a good dynamic. It's great to be more co-ed. Now we're over 30% women. So that's been a big factor in making the Academy more of a college than just a military institution that's very old school. And the dynamic too from Title IX, I forgot about that. That was really a game changer for women because once you start spending the same amount on sports for women as for men, all of a sudden We have unbelievable women athletes there now. I mean, some folks who are going to be on the Olympic, US Olympic team later. I mean, it's just, it's attracted women who ordinarily might not be interested in going to a smaller academy or military academy, but now they realize that they'll be able to compete nationally and internationally. And the funding is there just as it is for their male counterparts. So that's been a big, a big change as well. So I spent my first 2 tours on the water. I was assigned to 2 different ships. The first ship was operated out of Charleston and we worked in the southeastern United States and then in the Caribbean. We did aids to navigation mainly, but we also did some occasional search and rescue and a little bit of law enforcement, but it was mostly an aids to navigation vessel, which meant we worked in the harbors in the ports in Savannah and Charleston and then down in Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands. So it was really a great way to start.

All right everyone, welcome to another edition of the Leadership and Success Podcast. We have a very, very special guest for you waiting in the green room, but before I bring her on, uh, oh, first I'm reminded our moment of gratitude, right? We do this every time we meet, so I had an earlier podcast today, and I was really grateful for just the weather in Silicon Valley. It is really gorgeous and beautiful, sunny, and we got some rain, and I see a lot of green grass now. Believe it or not, a couple of years ago, all of that grass was completely brown. So I am really, really grateful for that. I get so inspired by the beauty of nature. So let us know where you are coming from. And I know Dave is right here watching live. Dave, let us know which city-state you are joining us from. What you're grateful for. And also, if you have a question for the Admiral, please type it in the comments and we are going to be answering live. Okay. Let me attempt to introduce a woman who really doesn't need any introduction. All right. We're going to be speaking with Rear Admiral Melissa Burt, United States Coast Guard, retired now. So she's the former Judge Advocate General and Chief Counsel of the U.S. Coast Guard, where she led more than 500 legal professionals supporting more than 55,000 service members, and 13.8 billion missions. So her career span from law, ethics, governance at the highest level, homeland security, crisis leadership, including 9/11 port security, command at Coast Guard Sector Juneau, Alaska, and also she's the founder of the Coast Guard Women's Leadership Initiative. So today she continues to serve as a senior maritime homeland security and national security advisor, bridging command, counsel, and culture. And, uh, today we are really going to be speaking about the intersection, right, of leadership, law, trust, and national security. I think this is the most timely subject ever for 2026. So if you would please help me welcome the one and only Admiral Melissa Bird.

All right.

Good afternoon, Admiral. Oh, hold on a second. I'm sorry, here you are. Good afternoon, Admiral. How are you doing today?

Oh, wonderful. And thank you so much for having me. I'm excited already, and it was fun looking at my trip down memory lane. So thank you for that.

Yes, we are really honored and privileged to have you today. Maybe to get started, what is one thing that you are grateful for today?

I am grateful. I'm thinking about the most recent thing. I'm grateful that I have a really, really close friend that I've known since I was 18. Uh, we were roommates at the Coast Guard Academy, my first roommate, and she has been a close friend and mentor to this day. And I'm very grateful that I have her, um, on my side, as you would say.

That's wonderful. So we have Joanna. She said that you were her first roommate. Oh, lifelong friend. I think that's her, Joanna Nunnan. So she's watching. Hi, Joanna. This is pretty cool. So let us know if you have a question for Admiral Joanna. Thank you so much for watching live. I really appreciate that. And by the way, Admiral, I will be checking all of the chats. I really love interacting with the audience because the first podcast I did, it was an audience of one, me, myself, and I, and that's it. I really love being live with people. So maybe another question for you, ma'am. What is something about you that maybe most people do not know when they meet you?

I was trying to think of something exciting. I don't really have anything too exciting to offer, but I did win a watermelon seed spitting contest when I was '09 in Atlanta, Georgia, where I was growing up. So yes, that was like a big deal, and it kind of brings me home, right?

Yes. Wow, that is, that is quite, uh, fascinating. So you've been a 2-star admiral in the Coast Guard, recently retired. Can you maybe tell us briefly just about your leadership journey, how you got to become Rear Admiral Melissa Bird?

So, uh, as you heard or put out earlier, uh, my life in the Coast Guard has been a lot of happenstance and a lot of doing what people thought would be good and saying yes to things. So I learned early on that if, uh, I didn't really know where I was going or what I was doing, and so when someone I thought knew better than me said, hey, you should do this.

I did it.

I joined the legal community after a couple of tours at sea because when I had been at the Academy, I took a couple of like legal classes and the lawyers who taught them were so funny, irreverent. They're great, great guys. And I thought, oh, this is a good community. Quite frankly, the shipboard community— sorry, Joanna— does not have a lot of people. Aviation or law. And I chose law. So that's what sort of got me really going. I think I might have gone this way had I not joined the Coast Guard because my father's a civil rights lawyer. And I think I always admired this idea of being able to help people with wrongs.

Well, that is really fascinating, finding laughter, comedy in serious subject like law. Like for me, cybersecurity, you really have to have talent. Joanna has our first question from the audience. Uh, how long can you hold the plank?

Um, you know, I still, I still do planks all the time. I think probably I do it, we do it in class for 2 minutes. I think I could probably go for 3 or 4, but not longer than that.

I think I, I like sit-ups much, much better, but unfortunately we can't do sit-ups anymore. Uh, yeah, I think my best time—

sorry, this is an example of, uh, following someone's ideas. I was, uh, I was at headquarters, not a flag officer, and, uh, one of the, uh, one of the three stars was teasing me, uh, calling me a socialist, um, because I agree with him on something. At any rate, uh, he said, well, you want to join some real tough people, uh, you know, come, come to the parking garage with us in the mornings, and to do kind of an ad hoc CrossFit class.

Wow.

I started that. That was the first time I ever did that kind of exercise, and, uh, it really grew on me, and it introduced me to a lot of people I would never have interacted with. So that's another example of saying yes to something that you're like, really?

Yeah. You said prior to you being— like, I think this is the one picture I found of you as a captain. Uh, one question I have for you, because we do have a lot of JOs watching the show, and I want to focus especially on female JOs in the Navy or the Coast Guard today. When you look back on your career, what early experience most shaped the leader you ultimately became before you were flag rank?

I was very meek. I didn't really think I belonged in the Coast Guard, probably until I was much more senior. Yeah, I just, I felt like a muggle in Hogwarts, you know? I just did not feel like I fit the mold. And the mold was more serious, probably more male. Uh, not so. I'm kind of, uh, yeah, I'm not that serious. I like to have a good time at work and, uh, get the job done, but I really like hanging out with people. As you can see, I'm very chatty.

Wow, I wish you were one of my bosses. That's pretty cool.

I was on two— as I told you, I was on two ships before I went to law school, and they were basically, uh, examples of good and bad leadership. And the first one, it worked to my betterment in the long run. But the crew, this commanding officer was really, really strict about everything. We had mass like once a week and the crew did not like that. And they did everything they could to undermine him, which is not good. They did as little as possible, but they also, I think they must've thought he didn't like me either because the chiefs and the officers really supported me. They, uh, they taught me what I needed to know. I really enjoyed their company and I realized that I needed them and they would have my back. And that was really a great experience there, but it was terrible to have this environment where people are scared of you. And that was the entire leadership was being scared. That was how he led. The second ship I was on, I was an XO, and the CO was this quiet, likable guy. He was— he had been, I think, I don't know what he did before. He was not an academy person. I think he was prior enlisted. Super, super easygoing. And as a result, people love to talk to him, love to hang out with him. They also, they came up with some really innovative ideas that the Coast Guard later adopted. And I thought, this is the kind of person who brings out the best in people and sees talent and doesn't judge them by their rank or what they should be doing, but accepts that there are some people with talent out there who can better the organization and better all of us. So that those are, those are contrasts in leadership. So I guess swore to myself I'm not going to lead through fear ever, because that's just gave me a knot in my stomach every day going to, you know, going to watch.

And the truth is, I guess there might be sometimes, especially in the military when you're at war or something, where you may have to, but it usually doesn't scale, or people are not going to be following you for very long, right?

Yeah, I don't— I would say when you are in serious situations Being calm and not angry is an easier way to direct people and approach an emergency. So I really don't see a need to berate people, but others may disagree.

I stand corrected. You are the Admiral. So what did your time at sea teach you about loneliness, trust, and command that still informs how you lead today?

I, um, I was never scared about sexual assault or anything like that, although I was the only woman on both ships. Uh, pretty early on, I was treated like an aunt or somebody, uh, you know, who they could ask about their divorces and everything else with. Yes. Um, but I, I did, uh, want to be treated with respect, and I did not want to be friends with the people on the ship, which was easy for some of the other officers. But, um, at any rate, I, um, I did take the lead from the one great thing this commanding officer did, is he always called enlisted people by their last names. And he suggested I always do that across the board, because that little opening of professionalism, it, um, it's something, uh, you can do in, in the law. We all, we are on first name basis, but on a ship, that made a big difference. I never— honestly, it was lonely. I never went out on liberty with the crew. I didn't really go out on liberty with the officers. Yeah, I really was doing my own thing when I had social time. And my social life was when I came back home, and that was enough. But I just, I knew that if I want to succeed, I have to— my first few years have to be focusing on the job and not getting into some kind of mess.

Wow. Yeah.

Thank you so much for sharing that. Like I said in the introduction, you served during 9/11. I think for people of my generation, those are two events that definitely marked us, 9/11 and the global pandemic. So you were on duty at one of the nation's most critical ports too. What leadership behavior mattered most in those first chaotic hours on 9/11?

Well, I worked for an amazing leader who the Coast Guard ended up not liking for reasons I cannot figure out. But at any rate, he was a remarkable leader. And I was on the road up the West Coast. And when this— I heard this is going on, I obviously, I turned around. And the captain of, you know, the commander of our large command, it was an operational command, he said, "We need to get stakeholders together tonight and figure out how we're going to manage the port." And that is, you know, the smartest thing you can do is get everyone involved and figure things out. And that's what he did. We held a big town hall. I called the people I knew from, you know, from customs, from the Navy, from the port, from, you know, shipping industry there and just called people and said, hey, we're going to meet tonight. Um, we're going to have to talk through how we're going to get things to the port safely because we do not want to close a big port that's our, you know, oil supplier in many ways for the country. So yes, that was great. That was a great lesson to see that. And the other thing that was really my my, uh, I really enjoyed was we did put together, uh, sort of an algorithm of what ships needed more attention and, and would get boarding teams. And we had mixed boarding teams from different law enforcement agencies. Uh, but the other thing was I realized I can do things without being told. Uh, and that was, that, that was really enabling. And, uh, one of the things I did was really comical, so I'll just share it. Quickly, but I, um, we had information that there was a terrorist on one of the ships coming in, and, uh, and so the idea was we need to do a high-security boarding. And back then we didn't have this MSRT, so, um, I called the LAPD, um, and the FBI, and they sent a SWAT team that night.

Wow.

And, uh, they were going to go on board this vessel with our, our Coast Guard, uh, boarding team. But they brought dogs and there were about 35 barking dogs on the pier who would have none of it. They were not going to get on the boats. All the whole thing was, uh, it was like chaos. But I did enjoy the opportunity to just try things. Uh, but that was, uh, that was a lesson learned about boats and water. Excuse me, dogs. Yeah, not all.

Yeah, I, I can't, uh, imagine. So what did you learn from that? Experience that's still relevant today, you think?

Well, I think don't wait for people to do things. Uh, you know, you have it, you're given these, uh, if you're an officer, you're given these shoulder boards. Yeah, Petty Officer, Chief, you are there for, you know, a reason. And if you limit what you do until, uh, somebody directs you, nothing innovative will ever happen. And, uh, it's just But it's hard for people to do that. Waiting for somebody to tell you something is, um, yeah, it's, it's not going to give you much fulfillment and it's not going to help the service.

But really, I mean, 9/11 was extremely chaotic. So how do leaders make sound decisions when there is incomplete information, high fear, and real consequences for whatever you decide?

Well, uh, The part of the Coast Guard is what we would call the marine safety community. And at that time, that included oil spill responders and folks like that. And they had a system where basically you set up a command structure and somebody was responsible for logistics, somebody for next day future operations, somebody operations. There was a structure to our meetings and who would be at what meetings so that we could bring in our stakeholders. And so that made decision-making more of a conversation and then a movement forward, because if you don't have that, you're just relying on your own ideas. It's not good, but it was never I didn't feel, I guess because we had really talked things through, I didn't feel that any of the things we did put anybody in danger. And it actually, it enabled everybody in the ports of LA and Long Beach to get really close, knowing each other because we all worked together.

Wow, that is beautiful to see. Now, throughout your career, you have also turned around toxic command climate. What are some of the early warning signs leaders often miss? And most importantly, what should leaders do first when trust is broken?

Well, the guy that I relieved in Alaska was ultimately relieved of command because people were calling around the Coast Guard complaining about him that he was you know, constantly, uh, ordering them to do things, micromanaging everything they did. They just hated working there. And, uh, I guess it got, you know, it got worse and worse where enough people called headquarters where they said, you gotta go. Um, so I, uh, when I went out there, I just basically, I thought, I need to get everybody together and, uh, we need to we need to figure out how we want to move forward. So, um, again, I, uh, I learned, I guess, from 9/11 and other things, I learned let's get our leadership together— senior enlisted, our, uh, department heads, our outlying unit commanders. And, uh, we actually did something that we would never do today because it's just a different service, but we, um, we rented a huge sprawling cabin, uh, about 25 miles out the road in Juneau, Alaska. And we, uh, we basically had like a 3-day retreat there, or 2-day retreat. It was close enough where people could communicate with commands, but it wasn't, um, wasn't that far. But it, uh, it was an opportunity to say, hey, how are we going to do things? Um, we actually came up with a, uh, command, uh, motto. Um, uh, at that, that was the time that I asked the chiefs, um, because I, I knew I need the chiefs to have buy-in. That's where we came up with this idea that we're going to consolidate the whole command in one building because they were sprawled everywhere and around the city. And I said, chiefs, you guys handle that. And, uh, they did. They handled everything— leasing information, GSA. I don't know what they did, but when we all moved together, it was, uh, I was like, wow, these guys can really pick up their weight. Yeah.

That is really, really incredible. And I think most people will always remember that one or two commanding officers that really made the difference, people who really truly care. So we do have another question from Joanna. Again, I think this is a good one. What advice would you give women about how to best advocate for themselves?

It's such a good question because women tend not to. One of the things that that I've learned from Joe and other folks is you need allies. And basically, there are people who will fight for you, men and women. I mean, I've had men I've worked for, I would tell them like, hey, I want this job and it's not going to happen unless you tell your buddy that you know, what you think of me. And, uh, so that's, um, that was really important, but also just like, um, in, in a room sometimes as flag officers, uh, Joanna and I were the only women in a huge room stuff, uh, of, of admirals and, uh, and senior executives. And what would tend to happen, uh, I think it was purposely done that way because the leadership could avoid having people say too much, um, and it enabled anybody to say anything about whatever you brought up. So you could have an engineer commenting about human resources. So it was really, it was really weird. So Joanna and I would try to, you know, back each other, uh, when we were doing, uh, things. But yeah, I think, I think that's a tough thing for anybody, uh, to be in a minority situation where you're, you know, you're clearly not welcome.

So, wow. And, uh, what did that experience teach you about leadership, especially in the military, more specifically the Coast Guard?

Uh, well, I think there are times and places when you want to speak, uh, truth to power. Uh, if there was something that I really thought was wrong, uh, or, you know, was concerned about after a meeting, I would march right into it, which, you know, Normally, I don't think people do this, but I was the lawyer at that time. And before that, I was Congressional and Public Affairs. I would go talk to the— I would walk into the Commandant's office. I'd say, sir, we need to talk about this. Most of the time he listened really well. Most of the time he did not do what I was asking, but I thought, you know what, you have to do that. And you have to do it in a more small setting because no one wants to talk there. Obviously, that's why he had big settings, was to avoid having those confrontations. So yeah, but I got into it a lot on things. And if you don't get into it on things that are really problematic, I mean, there's one thing to let certain things go, but yeah, it's really problematic and you don't say anything. Um, it's, yeah. And I, I let things go on some things that I feel really bad about. Um, but I, you know, I just didn't have the gumption to say, hey, look at what's happening. You need to do this, this, and this. Um, so yeah, I, I think that's it. You have to advocate and get a friend who's going to be your ally.

Thank you. Thank you so much for, for sharing. And I'm assuming once you had your chance to actually be in command, like being the Judge Advocate General for the U.S. Coast Guard, you definitely made a difference for a lot of the women and people, making sure that their voices were heard and they were represented. As well.

Yeah, actually, I'll tell you one little thing that, uh, Joanna and I did, both did with our— she was the head of human resources while I was the Judge Advocate General. And, uh, I had just come into that position when COVID started, and at the same time that the, uh, George Floyd, uh, riots were happening and, yeah, like that. And so I was new, and all of a sudden it's like Everything's in chaos. People aren't coming to work. Or yeah, it was, it was a little nutty for the first couple of months or 3 months. And then we had established a routine, but nobody was talking to the workforce. I mean, nobody. And I think we were probably waiting for the other services or whatever it was. But, but I wrote a very personal email about, you know, my thoughts. So, you know, I, I don't know what to think about this. I, you know, I never considered myself to be privileged, but now I realize, you know, these are some things that are happening that, that should not be happening. And, you know, whatever. I just was very personal. And then I asked for their, their point of view, like, you know, what are your thoughts? And that spawned a, spawned a great 3 years. We even had a leadership council. They set up a leadership council and Wow. They published a magazine. Wow. Which I didn't even know about. It was a great magazine. It was just called Perspectives. And, uh, they published it. It was really great. And it was about all these different people's, uh, perspectives, things that had happened to them. And, uh, yeah, so I, I guess it was really being authentic and sharing my personal vulnerability and asking them to share that.

Yes.

Wow.

Yeah, that is quite amazing.

Let's talk a little bit like it though. He did, he did tell us to stop. He was annoyed with Joe and I.

Really?

He said, what are you doing getting out in front of us?

Oh well, I guess as a leader sometimes you do have to take risk and really do it for your people, don't you?

Yeah, I mean, it was clear that people were wondering what's going on. And, uh, and we also needed to figure out, you know, how we were going to get through COVID and, uh, how they wanted to structure— I gave it to them— how are you going to structure work so that we have the right people at the right meetings? And, you know, people who have kids at home can figure out how they're going to do things. Yeah. So they, they, um, so as you can see, I did very little work, but I had a lot of people come up with some great ideas and And it worked. I think we had no problems with legal work during that time and pretty high morale compared to the offices that were not doing that.

And talking about legal work, let's talk a little bit about law, ethics, and decision-making. One thing you've said a lot is the law is not an obstacle to mission, but what makes the mission legitimate. That is so important. I think more important now than it's ever been in my Navy career. But I guess the question I have for you, ma'am, is how should How do leaders think about ethics when speed and pressure demand action?

Well, I think what we used to do, and then the Coast Guard became dependent on it, was we had lawyers integrated everywhere. And so if you were having an operational planning meeting or whatever it was, a lawyer would be in the room. So you could kind of vet things as we went. During COVID uh, we had a lot of decisions to make about the workforce and vaccinations. That was our biggest thing, uh, because all the services were trying to get people vaccinated and, uh, many people started to object. So we had to figure out how are we going to do this. We, uh, we followed the other services. I would go to the other TJAG meetings But, um, but we did some things differently. Our vetting process was a little different. Um, and I guess, um, some things went well, uh, some things did not. What went well actually was we were working with Centers for Disease Control on the ports, and we were— we figured out ways to get people into port because you had cruise ship passengers, you had thousands, literally, you know, hundreds of thousands of people, mariners and others who were stuck because ports would not let them in. Uh, so there were points in time when we just, we, we just said, hey, we have to do this. Sorry, CDC, you're not the enforcement on this, even though you are the one who sets the rules. We have to, we have to figure this out. And, um, and we went forward. I thought that was, that was good. That was point where you had to have some bold leadership or, you know, you'd be putting people at risk. The, um, the thing that was poorly done, uh, I think for all the services was, um, actually looking at what we needed in terms of we needed healthy people at work. The religion, all of that, it, it just, it muddied the waters and it created a big rift in, uh, in the services and a rift that I think probably still, you know, it's, it's been, it's been, uh, revived. Yeah. Um, but yeah, that was, that was, uh, I, I'm, I'm sorry and that it happened that way, and I'm sorry that the chaplains, uh, did not do anything, uh, yeah, to stop that. They let anybody say anything and, uh, said okay. Uh, yeah. That was a disappointment, and we're living with it.

Yeah. And as a leader, what do you think we should have learned from that experience going forward?

Well, I guess now what we've learned is vaccines are a privilege, and if you want to be vaccinated, you're really lucky that it's free. Um, and, uh, that vaccinations need to, I guess, go with the theater. So, you know, if you're going to be working certain places, you are going to get yellow fever and other vaccines. But so I think everything the service learns is that, uh, what you tell people to do, it has to be related to operations or people won't respect it.

Yes. Wow. So, and there are quite a few, uh, junior officers listening right now. I think it's maybe it's a mindset issue where people think of, you know, legal compliance and risk function being like a barrier to their mission and not a partner. What would you tell to, I guess, people in charge or those who aspire to be in charge on their mindset, how they should really view legal requirements when it comes to mission accomplishment?

I mean, most of the time, if you're sitting down and discussing things before you've actually You know, put the mission out there. Um, then you have a chance to kind of talk through things and, uh, figure out ways to do things that are not, you know, illegal. Um, and also things, you know, when we give advice, we're saying, you know, the law says this, it does not address this, uh, but these are the risks if you go this way or this way, and these are the potential outcomes. And, uh, This is pretty funny. I guess it's because people don't believe that they think that lawyers know something, but most of the places I have, uh, worked, people would call me and we'd talk about stuff and then they'd say, tell me what to do. So I mean, it was like, all right, I can tell you what to do, but I, you know, you, you want people to be thinking about things. Um, but yeah, I didn't, I didn't find until I was with these, with flag officers. All wanted to do things their own way. I did not find, you know, that to be a problem.

Well, now let's talk about the future just a little bit. It seems to me like cybersecurity, which I'm an information warfare officer, that's my wheelhouse, but maritime security and national security seem to be converging. What leadership blind spots concern you most right now?

The rule of law. Um, yes, you know, war fighting is not law enforcement, and there's so many different things that, uh, cybersecurity on the military side is external threats, on the DHS side it's internal. There's, uh, there are so many things that are— that guide us in terms of our legal meets and bounds, and it seems like we're kind of just blurring them to justify the means.

Yes. Wow. Now, another interesting thing about your career, ma'am, you've really operated at the enterprise and strategic level, right, with Congress, DHS, DOD, international partners, and on and on. What separates tactical leaders from those who are truly strategic?

I think You know, what you see is the end game. When my last few years, I realized that to get anything accomplished, I needed to focus, really focus on what was important and get some allies, male allies, as well as interagency allies. And that was really hard. I will say for both of the projects I worked on, one was the cybersecurity And the other was, uh, the, uh, the Safer Seas Act. Um, it was really hard to rally people, particularly in our own agency and our own department, because they just thought it was weird. You know, when you come up with some legislation, they just, I don't know what it was, but I had to like individually talk to people who knew other people they could talk to. And, uh, yes. And I had people, uh, other flag officers who wanted to get on board and bring their people in. And that was, that was it, but it was a trudge. Um, and, uh, but I thought the end game is I want to give the Coast Guard more authority.

Yes.

And, uh, we need to be the ones who are determining the safety of shipping because that is our, that's our mandate.

Yeah.

So yeah, so I just felt compelled to do that. Um, I'm not a micromanager, obviously. I've let things go that I shouldn't let go. Uh, I don't know. I just don't— I guess I don't really feel like changing everything on people's work. So I don't really— if somebody does a good job on something that makes sense, I don't get into correcting.

Well, actually, I think that's a great characteristic, especially if you have people who really know their mission, they are qualified, competent, and really care about the work. But going back into being a strategic leader, I think sometimes we kind of lose sight, right, of the second and third order effect. We just focus on what's going to happen right here and right now. How should leaders think about second and third order effect when decisions ripple across systems and organizations, right, and they don't fully control?

I mean, I think you have to look at what your organization is about. Uh, so, you know, for to be in the Coast Guard, authorities are everything. So any way you can protect or build on an authority, that's where you need to go. Because if you have the authority to do something and the Coast Guard can, you know, do war fighting, part of the intelligence community, inspect ships, that ability makes you really nimble and it makes you a very useful tool for national security.

Well, well said. Okay, I want to talk briefly about women culture and talent development. So you have founded the Coast Guard Women's Leadership Initiative. What problem were you really trying to solve and what surprised you most along the way?

So I firmly believe that I can't change culture, nor are the women or the men going to change culture. I just don't think that's That's how things happen. But what I was interested in was not getting at a problem that's like a tangible problem, like people complain of harassment or assault. I was not thinking of that. What I was thinking of is empowering women to want more. And, you know, like you would talk to a junior officer in the Coast Guard, a woman, and very high performing. Because a lot of the women are really high performing, especially out the gates. Um, and you'd say, hey, what are you— what are your plans in the Coast Guard? And they'd say, oh, I don't know, I'll see in a few years, uh, you know, what's going on. And, uh, you could ask men, and that if some of them would say that, but a lot of them would say, oh, I'd really like to command a ship, or, you know, whatever it is. Um, and, uh, And I think women were, are, or were, uh, more, I think they were saying things that they didn't believe necessarily because they thought it looks bad if it looks like I have that much confidence in myself, or if I want to say these things, uh, people are going to, you know, take me down and laugh at me or, you know, whatever it is. But also I think women didn't really believe that they were part of the organization, a core part of the organization, the way obviously a lot of the men did. Like, like, they did not feel they were leaders of the organization the way men were feeling, like, oh, it's my organization, um, your visitors in certain ways. Um, so the goal was pure networking with, with people in the, in business and, uh, and in government, uh, who, um who did have agency, and that would give our folks agency, more power in general, because the more powerful they are in knowledge that they could get a great position outside, then they're more valued inside, they value themselves. So the whole goal was to build, you know, build that sense of agency and vision in women.

Well, that is really fascinating. Like I said in the green room, right, I am married and we have two daughters. And I have noticed in my experience, most female, if they don't qualify 100% for a job, they will not apply for it. But people like me, if I only qualify 45%, I'm good to go. Let's apply. Give me the job. I can do it. I'm going to learn the remaining 55%. I'm confident I can, I can do it. So I guess this is a responsibility for senior leadership in the Coast Guard or the military. In general for why some women hesitate and do not think big or are hesitant going for leadership position as opposed to their male counterparts? Is there anything senior leadership you think should really take responsibility for and maybe try to change that?

Well, they used to say things like, oh, well, you know, she must have a family or whatever. I don't know. I mean, now I live in New York City and the parents of the kids in school They have some powerhouse moms. So I— and dads. So this idea that, oh, it's about having children, that really annoyed me. I don't know, it just really got under my skin. But yeah, I think it's really just this idea that it's not my organization. And so, you know, I'll see what's out there, you know, and then many of them do. We've had some very successful entrepreneurs and, uh, and leaders of, of companies who basically just said, I don't— you know, Coast Guard is not valuing me the way I want to be valued, and yes, I'm gonna go do something else.

That's really unfortunate. So when it comes to retaining top talent, especially women and minority too, what policy matters, you think, or even more, what cultural behavior matter, uh, to try to retain top talent within the military, in your opinion, ma'am?

Um, I think transparency would be good. Um, one of the things that I was concerned about was I thought, but I had no evidentiary basis for this, that more senior women and minorities were getting lower marks than their peers as a, as a whole, not just one person or another. Um, and that was just from, you know, anecdotal looking at records. Um, but that's something that would tell the organizations, the services, hey, is there— is this happening? Uh, why is it happening? Um, you know, I, I mean, I feel like we, we, when we do these studies, we don't ask we ask, they're about perceptions, and it's not about perceptions, it's about the facts. So yes, you know the facts and ask people. We don't even ask people when they leave the service, why did you leave? I mean, they, they give you options like poor housing, uh, you know, and I'm like, what good is this going to do to us? Why don't we ask people why and not tell them why they're leaving? Um, anyway, that's, um, obviously I can get on a soapbox on that one.

Yes. Well, thank you so much for sharing. Well, Joanna has one more question. What is one of the things in your career that you are especially proud of?

So many, Joanna.

One.

Well, most recently, I'm really proud that we were able to pass legislation to protect all mariners, not just millennial mariners. Military mariners and, uh, and hopefully make the seas safer for everyone. Um, time will tell, but I don't think the culture is changing, but at least there are, uh, laws and opportunities just to, uh, make things right when people, uh, do wrong.

So yes, wow, that is amazing. That's really one thing I really love about the law because you can really impact, right, the entire country, really an entire industry. Uh, it's, it's really powerful.

So unless it's ignored.

Well, it shouldn't be ignored.

No, I'm joking. It is, it is powerful, especially when you put, uh, you know, fines and penalties for not doing what is said. So that's, um, that's a big impetus to business, obviously.

Absolutely. It definitely helps if Congress doesn't abdicate their constitutional mandate, but yes, it is quite powerful, especially for future generations as well. So let me ask you this, ma'am, just generally speaking, what is the greatest lesson you have ever learned about life, leadership in general?

I guess it's don't sit on the sidelines. You know, whatever, whatever your talents are, whatever talents you see in other people, whatever you can do to get involved, uh, do it because it goes by really fast. And I know that sounds— when I was an ensign, I'd be like, it's not going by fast for me here, but it ultimately, right? I mean, You're— don't you feel like it goes by fast? And, uh, boy, the worst feeling is wasted opportunities. So jump in, be yourself. No one likes a fake person. Uh, so if you're, you know, if you're someone who's very serious, that's fine. Um, if you're someone who is more easygoing, that's fine. Uh, just be yourself and talk with people and listen to people and they will build a great— they'll build better people themselves. They'll have a greater experience and you will have better results.

So let me ask you this, ma'am. What do you think is the secret of your success retiring as a 2-star admiral in the Coast Guard?

Yeah, I always wonder that because I think in many ways I really was like a problem for certain people. But I, I think overall, uh, it was my, uh, interest in people. I mean, I talked to people in like the VA hospital waiting room. Like, I am always gathering, uh, interesting things from people and, uh, yes, and putting people together. I, I love this idea that, hey, you guys would be really good at this, or hey, you want to do this, I'm going to help you do it. And, uh, that That really helped me along the way. I had a lot of supporters because of that. And I had fun. That was the other thing. Nobody wants to look at a leader who's always like—

Yes, yes, yes. Some of the best CEOs I've ever had, they really made it fun somehow. Although it can be very slow.

I can see you saying somehow with cybersecurity.

Yeah, wow, okay. So, uh, what are you learning right now?

So I decided when I retired, and I, I recommend this for anyone whether you're retiring or transitioning, uh, you don't have to do a flurry of, you know, of, of job applications. Your, uh, people who knew you, uh, and they valued your work, they'll call you. And they'll say, hey, can you, you know, work on this or work on that? So I have been doing some consulting, but only on things that I think are of value. I've done some expert witness work. I did some work to support Ukrainian prosecutors for war crimes for a while. But yeah, I thought when I leave the service, I'm only going to do relevant things, uh, to make the world a better place, or somebody's world a better place. And, uh, and, and that's— it just happens organically because you've all along the way, you've met great people and you'll be surprised who, who contacts you. I mean, I was definitely surprised by some of the calls I got. So yeah, I think it's, uh, it happens. Don't, don't, don't stress about it and don't, you know, worry about leaving the service and not having a job. People value, uh, people value you.

Wow, that is really great to hear. And I guess we also would like to know, uh, no, we know all about your successes. Like I said in the intro, you don't need to be introduced, but I am sure you've had to deal with failure too along the way to get to where you are. I guess one question I have is, how has failure shaped your life?

Uh, well, I definitely had people who did not like me, um, for one reason or another. Um, might have been my poor performance, I don't know. Um, but I think, uh, you have to stay in the game, and that's the biggest thing. So many people walk away when someone doesn't like them, or, uh, or they don't get, you know, they don't get the jobs they want. There were jobs that I felt like I so deserved and never got. And I'd see other people get them and I, I was just baffled, but instead of, um, you know, walking away, I said, well, you know, I'll go in a different direction. And, uh, and I was fortunate that worked out. Um, you know, I discovered like, hey, actually this is a good direction for me, but I, I did feel really, uh, kicked in the face a few times and, uh, you know, but you have to move on. Otherwise you're just going to be miserable.

Wow, that is, that is a great, uh, answer. I think it's going to be very encouraging to junior officers listening now who one day aspire to command. I think in the Navy we have a pretty good system as far as promotion is concerned. But yeah, a couple of times I was baffled, few of the people they promoted, because I'm like, there is no way these people deserve this promotion, because I know people in my unit who work twice as hard and were a lot more deserving. But again, most of the time I think we always make the right choices. So who are maybe some of the people, you know, we should know, or the people that you admire, and I would like to know why. So the way I'm going to ask the question, if you could choose 3 people to have dinner with, they could be alive, dead, or even mythical figures, who would you choose and why?

Well, one of them is Ulysses S. Grant, and I think we were talking earlier, uh, he, he had to rally, uh, people to get behind all of these, uh, efforts in the Civil War. I didn't realize until I read that book that there was no U.S. Army, and, you know, it was all like getting people together and saying, hey, we got to do this. He was very brave.. He put his life on the line before he went to West Point from a family of means, and it was his fighting in the, in the prior war that kind of stepped the way. He was humble. Ultimately, he, he did accede to the wishes of, of Lincoln, and, uh, but he, I think he had a vision that, and that is probably, you know, he's, he's probably rolling over in his grave, I think, by not sort of consolidating the country then, uh, it, you know, we had, we have had ongoing problems. But I, I think, uh, I think he's amazing.

Remarkable. Two more, huh? Oh, two more people.

Um, well, I'm a big fan of RBG. Yeah, yeah, because she, she fought for everything that she believed in. And I think, you know, she was a She was great, and she didn't take it— she wasn't like egotistical about it. She just wanted to do what was right, very humble. And, uh, and she worked until almost when she died. So I think, uh, she's fantastic. Let's see, who else do I, do I admire?

Although I think some people would have preferred if she had retired when Obama was still president.

But yes, I think a lot of people would.

She's done a good job. One, one more.

One more. Let's think of one more who I really admired. Well, um, I guess ultimately, uh, FDR. Yes, because without him we would have been a communist country or mowed over by the Nazis. Um, he, uh, he put people back to work. Uh, he said we have to fight. And he got the country behind him and they sacrificed to fight a war, which I haven't seen in my lifetime. We don't sacrifice like people did in World War II. So I admired that. He was a great war leader.

Yes. Wow. So we only have about 3, 4 minutes left. So before I ask you the next question, is there a question I should have asked you, ma'am, that I didn't get a chance to ask, anything you wanted to share?

Oh, I think, uh, I think I want to share about the, uh, the book I'm working on. So, uh, as a result of all the, uh, work that, uh, we were doing with SASH, uh, sexual assault, sexual harassment, uh, not just legislatively but throughout my career, that seems to have been the focus of the military for years, years. And I've met so many women, uh, talked to so many women, uh, in bad times and good times. I've spoken to commands when things happen that I realized people need a guide. And, uh, so my, my book is going to be, uh, it's, it's with a publisher now, so hopefully it'll be out soon. But it's about, it's about, uh, lowering risk of SASH and lowering risk because SASH causes horrible consequences for victims and even worse consequences for victims if they are ignored. It destroys companies because there's a lack of trust and they end up in lawsuits and litigation. So the book is— some of it is just compliance, and that's sort of more of the first half. But the second half is how to communicate with people and literally dialogue in there about, you know, if someone comes to you and says this, you know, This is what you can say instead of— because if you were to ask anybody, what would you do? Um, you can ask the captain of the ship or, uh, you know, the, the mariner newest to the ship. What would you do if a shipmate came to you and said they were, um, assaulted? And inevitably they'd say, I, I would get someone. That's what they would say because they've never talked about it. They've never, you know, Most people have never— we don't like to talk about it, and most people never talk about it. So the book is really a guide, a guide for mariners, a guide for leaders, and a guide for industry. Those intersect in some way. But there is even a guide for— I did a little part for the accused. So if you're accused of harassment or assault, this is what you need to do. Because you need to know how to work in this organization, whether it's a commercial one or a military one.

Well, that is so powerful. And like I said in the green room, whenever the book is published, ma'am, we definitely want you back here. I think this is very important, not just for women. And I don't want to minimize— there are some male who gets sexually harassed and assaulted too, but I think women overwhelmingly more than men. So why would leaders, especially male leaders, care about that?

Because they don't want to ruin their career and reputation. You can get away with things until you get blown up by a lawsuit or something like that. And in the industry, that's, that's more common. Um, but it also, um, it's also something that if you are upfront about everything from the beginning, um, you will be admired. I mean, people will be, oh, this is really well handled. I mean, literally I have had people who stayed in the Coast Guard and continued working for somebody or an organization because the people were really great to them when something bad did happen. Because bad things happen. But if leadership really handles it well, it helps victim recovery and it helps make the company a place where people want to work, good people want to work.

Well, we are almost out of time. So before we let you go, we want to ask— where are you? Hold on. We want to ask, how can we add value back to you?

Oh, wow. I think we should just continue these conversations. So, you know, when like I think of when I'm out with Joanna, she mentioned something. And then when I hear about something that would be her thing later, I would say, hey, you know, I heard about this. She does that for me. So I say take care of each other and that's what, you know.

Well, I am really grateful. Your book is on the way. We want to help you make it a New York Times bestselling book. And I see that you do have a lot of very insightful posts, but I don't see a newsletter. Maybe that's something that might help some of the G.O.s who follow me just to learn more about the law, not just being legal and compliant, but actually using it as a partner for their future in the service, because I know we're gonna definitely need that going forward. I guess the very last question I have for you, we out of time, but I need to ask this last one. What would you say to the 17-year-old version of yourself standing at the edge of this incredible career you've had in the US Coast Guard?

I guess trust yourself and your instincts.

Wow. Thank you. Thank you. Trust yourself, your instincts. Okay. We are out of time. Thank you so much for your time, but I definitely, I look forward to having you back on the Leadership and Success Podcast. Thank you so much, Admiral Melissa Burt. Appreciate that.

Bye, Coach BZ. Bye. Thank you.

All right, everyone. That was Admiral Melissa Burt. And, uh, I'm glad she's going to be back probably in a couple of months. And I think sexual harassment is definitely something we need to talk about. I know when I had the privilege to be a commanding officer, we really had a zero tolerance for sexual assault or sexual harassment. I think it really starts at the very, very top. And like I say, I'm a father of two daughters, and I wouldn't want my kids to work in any environment where they might be at risk. That's not why people join the military or whatever they, they do. So Joanna says, a great interview. I'm thankful for Admiral Melissa Burt, her authenticity, integrity, wisdom. Conspiracy, gang humor, and friendship. That is so true. Thank you so much, Joanna. So this is the end of the show. I just want to remind you on Thursday, I will be back with Charlie Wetzel. He's the writing partner of John Maxwell. Most people do not know his name and he's not very well known, and that's really on purpose because he really helps great people like John Maxwell or even Kevin Myers write best selling books. But now he's written a couple of his own books too. But anyway, I want to speak about leadership without the spotlight. That's going to be on Thursday. And then I also will be speaking on Thursday with the one and only Tambra Rae Stephenson, bestselling author of the Wanda for Kids series. She's the CEO and founder of Wanda. And we're going to be talking about leadership with nourishment. And then I will have Lisa Lisa Fendt next week. She's a mentoring architect. She has two bestselling books on mentorship. You do not want to miss this. We've been talking for almost a couple of months now. I'm really, really excited to have Lisa. If you have any question on mentorship, she is the person to talk to. And one more person I would like to highlight is on the same day I talked to Lisa, I will be talking to Commander Erika Dobbs. So US Navy commander retired, like me, she started as an E-1, and she ended up as a commander. And it's just a fantastic story from seaman recruit to Navy and and now she is a tech CEO. So, so much to learn from her. So thanks again for watching the Leadership and Success Podcast today, and we are going to see you tomorrow. Last plug, I am doing a study on the Book of Proverbs. It's not religious at all, it's just looking for ancient wisdom in ancient texts that's still applicable today. So mentoring from the Book of Proverbs, again, ancient wisdom, leadership lesson from the Book of Proverbs. Today we studied Proverbs chapter 6, tomorrow the 7th. We're gonna study Proverbs chapter 7, and we're gonna do this until the end of the month. Okay, that's all I have. Thanks again for watching, and I'll see you tomorrow on the Leadership and Success Podcast. Bye for now.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.