S5:E94🎙️🔥 LIVE with Siobhán MacDermott

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So there were 3 main things that I took away from today's debate. The first being real transparency between what application providers are collecting and consumers, and getting consumers to really understand what they're— what's being collected and what's being shared with other parties. The second piece of it was an honest dialogue which really looks at how public-private partnerships can work involving consumers in that debate and everybody in the whole value chain of the privacy value chain, if we call it that. And the third part is the importance of cross-border collaboration. Europeans have obviously a very different view on privacy than Americans do, and how do you get that to work across borders in a non-regulated environment? So again, those are the three most important things I think that are the hot topics in privacy today.

So the main reason that AVG is really involved with MAF Alright, welcome to another episode of the Leadership Success podcast. Thank you for joining us live, both on LinkedIn and YouTube. As is our custom, we have to start with our moment of gratitude. This is where we take just a moment to be grateful every single time we meet. So you know the drill. Close your eyes if you must, maybe take a deep breath, calm your nervous system and think about one thing you are grateful for right now. And today, I am really grateful for all of the great men and women out there who are helping make the world a better place. And we have such a person waiting for us in the green room right now. Because when I think about legacy, it's not just about my own success, me, myself, and I, but what can I do that is going to make the world a better place even long after I am gone. And I am really, really privileged to be speaking to people like that. And I wanna say hello to Daniel Young, one of the most active members of our community, coming to us from Midland, Florida. Hey Daniel, and thank you for being here. And of course, let us know where you are joining us from, what city, what state, and if outside of the US, which country, since we've gone global now. Let us know what you are grateful for today, and also if you have a question for my guest, please type it in the comment and we will answer live. All right, let me see if I can properly introduce our guest today. Today, I am really privileged and honored to be speaking to Siobhan McDermott. She's a globally recognized cybersecurity, geopolitical risk, and digital policy leader who has operated at the highest level of power and influence. She's the former vice chairman at Bank of America, founder and CEO of Teenagers Protecting Children in the Digital Battlefield. I don't know if there is any mission more important than that these days. She's an advisor to Fortune 100 CEOs and governments worldwide. And a professor, author, and one of the most fearless voices in cyber and digital safety. I wonder if she has time to sleep, my goodness. She has spent her career identifying systemic risk before it becomes irreversible. And now she's sounding the alarm on what's happening to our children online. Some of what you're gonna learn today is why cybersecurity is no longer just a technical problem, but it's a leadership problem. So Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, please help me welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast, Siobhan Mcnamara. All right, good morning, Siobhan. Oh, I cannot see you. Let's see, maybe it's your camera. Let's see which camera are you using. Is it the FaceTime ID? No, here we go. Okay, now I can see your hands, but Let's see, it's probably using the wrong camera.

Yeah, that's the wrong one.

Let's see, Logitech.

That's the one.

Okay, that only happens for people who use Mac. I don't know why that's the case. Sometimes it changes from your Mac to your phone to your iPad or to something else. Anyway, here you are. Okay, welcome Siobhan McDermott.

Hey, welcome.

Thank you so much for being here with us. It's really such a great honor and privilege. I've been waiting for a long time to speak to you. Maybe to get started, Siobhan, what is one thing you are grateful for today?

I'm just incredibly grateful to be able to operate at the intersection of all of these things. I'm grateful for my family. It's not just one thing. I'm grateful for a lot of things.

Absolutely. Is there something about you that most people may not know when they first meet you?

Yeah, I think, you know, I like to write a lot and I read a lot of poetry, and that sort of seems to be antithetical to what people view me as in the world.

But yes, writing a lot, that's true. You have at least 5 published books, which is just insane. Do you have time to sleep? My goodness, sometimes. That's incredible. But no, you're definitely making a big, big difference. I'm really, again, honored and privileged to be speaking to you today. You've really operated at the intersection, like I said in the intro, of not just cybersecurity but geopolitics and global finance too. How do you define yourself as a leader today?

So I think the most sort of critical thing for me is really looking across the discipline instead of deep down into any one discipline. You know, you mentioned three big disciplines. That's very unusual. And I tend to be sort of a very strategic thinker, and I look to break down silos and create connection that way instead of going deep into any one thing. So I think My leadership style is different as a result of that because it has to be broader. You have to encompass people that are sort of fighting for their own little fiefdoms and bring everybody together in a way that moves the needle forward in a direction of, you know, where we're all headed. So I would say that's kind of my differentiator or secret sauce, if you will.

Yes, that is leadership influence for sure. Because how, how did your multicultural upbringing shape your ability to assess risk and lead in times of uncertainty?

Well, I think nothing will set you up for understanding sort of playground politics better than, you know, we moved around a lot when I was a kid and my parents put me in local schools. So it wasn't— I didn't go to an American school or British school. I was put into the local school. So I would go in there without speaking a word of German for the sake of argument. And I had to figure it out. Right. So you kind of learn to read people a little bit differently. You have to figure out who's friend and who's foe. You also have to understand where your commonality lies with the people that you're operating with. And I always, you know, approached it from the context of being a guest in another country. So it was up to me to be the chameleon to adapt to them. And I think that's really kind of shaped quite a bit about how I deal with uncertainty because I don't see it necessarily as riskily as other people do, if that makes sense.

Yeah. Well, that is really powerful. Now, being American, I know In most of the country, people tend to see us as very arrogant. We are a guest, but we act like we own the entire world or something. And I think it really helps to lead with humility. What did the playground teach you when you were a child? But no, that's still applicable today as a leader.

Well, there are bullies. And, you know, that applies universally whether you're in the playground or in the boardroom. So I think, you know, understanding sort of power dynamics and being able to sort of observe them without necessarily like observe them from watching human behavior instead of observing them from what the words are that are being spoken, because those are two different things because people do say— don't always say what they mean. So I think that was really one thing. And the other piece is power dynamics. So really understanding, you know, who the person in power is because it's not necessarily the person with the title. It might be, you know, somebody who has more power on any one decision than other people. And so being able to sort of figure that out, I think, really helps in terms of managing the expectations of a board moving forward.

Wow, that is really powerful. I think that there is a book, it was recommended earlier, but Everything I Learned About Leadership I Learned in Kindergarten, something, something.

Pretty much.

Wow. So you really have a nonlinear, bold career, right? It's very impressive to see because you've taken unconventional paths, right? From telecom to cyber to banking. How do you decide when to take a risk?

You know, risk tends to find me in these categories, and I think it's not necessarily so much me deciding to take the risk, but the opportunity gets presented and I'm kind of like, that sounds like fun. Maybe that would be interesting to go and do that, you know. I don't realize, like, it sounds completely insane at the time, but, um, yeah, I tend to kind of just embrace that and say, okay, what— you know, I never want to stop learning. So for me, um, a large part of it is, is it an opportunity to learn? Do I think I'll have some fun with it? Will it be a challenge? Because I like big messy problems. So if it checks those 3 boxes, I'm kind of all in, uh, which is probably, you know, not really rational thinking most of the time, but, um, it's, it's worked out.

Well, I'm sure it's a great adventure. I really like that a lot. I wish more people were like that because most people are very afraid of change actually. They don't want anything to change ever. But living in the, no, the age of artificial intelligence, I think change is here to stay.

It's inevitable.

Yeah.

So was there maybe an hardest leadership transition in your career so far?

Yeah, I mean, I would say transitioning into banking was pretty tough, um, not just from the factor of, you know, I knew very little about it and I had to go learn about it very quickly because I was put in, in a pretty senior leadership position, but just the, um, the, the whole sort of, I guess, risk aversion. It was sort of antithetical to my risk profile, so I had to, I had to figure out how to kind of morph into taking less risk and understanding where people got stuck And that was really challenging because sometimes I just didn't get it and I pushed really, really hard.

And what did that experience teach you?

Well, it taught me sometimes you have to slow down a little. I mean, you know, I'm based in Silicon Valley. We're all about speed. You know, the faster the better. So it teaches you to take a step back and kind of slow down and consider all of the alternatives and making You know, sometimes some people need more time and more information to make decisions and you have to bring them along that journey. You can't, you can't push them there necessarily.

That is so true. Is there maybe something unexpected you kind of learned through that experience?

Uh, yeah, I don't like slowing down, but I guess I kind of knew that already. I think part of it is just, it's a necessary evil. Um, the other thing I learned is that I didn't love being a banker. So that was helpful too.

But I'm also sure when you start, especially in a brand new industry, you tend to make some mistakes. That's really how we learn and we, we grow. Uh, in any, uh, mistake that shaped you the most during your time in banking, you willing to share?

Yeah, I mean, I don't know so much as mistake, but it was just the assumption that that part of the business, um, you know, especially in investment banking where you're making acquisition decisions that, you know, you're based— they're basically risk-based decisions, um, sort of the thinking behind it that people would be willing to push harder on the risk to get the deal done. Um, and so that was really sort of eye-opening for me and very challenging. So, you know, I pushed pretty hard sometimes, and, you know, the bankers didn't love that. Um, and, you know, they also didn't love the fact that I wasn't really a traditional banker, right, per se. So I got put in this very senior leadership position without being a traditional banker, with a lot of people in the bank saying, oh, you're not a banker, why should I listen to you? But, you know, I understood the geopolitical environment and I understood sort of all of the external factors that they weren't even necessarily considering in that decision. So it was really a challenge sort of bridging those two together. And I made lots of mistakes along the way, you know, and had to sort of course correct every day a little bit.

And what did you learn about power, influence, and decision-making?

That's a great question. Yeah, I mean, so in financial services, the power is pretty absolute. And it was very eye-opening for me, you know, going into leadership meetings with world leaders where, you know, CEOs of banks are making the decision as opposed to the world leader. It was just completely a foreign concept, right? I couldn't fathom that that's actually how it worked. And so, you know, there's a lot of moving parts. I would say, behind closed doors that happen that, you know, the average person just isn't privy to. And once you're in that situation, you get exposure to that, and then some things make more sense and some things make less sense as a result.

If you had to do it all over again, anything you would definitely do differently?

I don't know that I would. I, you know, I think it was part of such a great learning arc for me and great, great experience. I mean, I love the experience. I just didn't like the actual work product. But, you know, learning how to kind of navigate and bringing those pieces together, those external pieces I was talking about, was really, you know, I'd like to think that the bankers learned a couple of things too that made them better bankers. So I think that juxtaposition of putting those two together actually makes a lot of sense. It's just very difficult because there's a lot of friction there.

Makes sense. Now let's talk about cybersecurity, geopolitics, and leadership. I think one of your sweet spots. So you've seen cyber evolve from hackers to now nation-state warfare. What are leaders still underestimating today, you think?

Everything.

I mean, yeah, that's a good way to put it.

Yeah, well, I mean, everything, right? We will probably get into this a little bit, but sort of the advent of AI, right? That changes the entire dynamic completely. Technological advancements. I think also that chasm between So the regulatory environment and the actual environment, that reality, there's just such a chasm there every day. That chasm is getting worse, not better. And that's not great. And so I think leaders are very much underestimating the fact that, you know, nation states might attack a company that has nothing to do with anything in the geopolitical sphere, just as collateral damage to get to something else. And we've seen that a couple of times, like Colonial Pipeline and things like that. But I think a lot of CEOs and boards underestimate that. They say, oh, that won't ever happen to us. We're not small, you know, we're small, we're not big enough. We don't get to that level of exposure. And I, you know, they just don't think about it. I also think they underestimate the fact that, you know, business risk used to be measured as a snapshot of a moment in time. And so you had your risk register, your risk radar, and you looked at it. That was a moment in time. Today, It is adversarial, it is dynamic, it is real-time, it is external, and it never sleeps. And so I don't think the magnitude of the fact that there's like, you know, probably some 16-year-old hacker on the other side of the line that's creating that friction in a company, that they realize the importance of sort of the real-time aspect of it and the adversarial nature too.

That is so true. Now, in the introduction, it was not a recent video. I think at the time you were Senior VP at AVG, but something you didn't mention even back then was how different it was in Europe and in the US, the way we do regulation. It seems to me like, especially right now, America doesn't seem to care much about regulation whatsoever. It's almost like the Wild Wild West here in Silicon Valley. But our European friends, they do take privacy and regulation quite seriously. What I guess my question is, what would you advise the tech leaders here in the US to be mindful of, especially in the age of artificial intelligence, as some of our organizations are trying to achieve, I guess, AGI. I don't know if that's actually a possibility, but we are really using a lot of resources in order to get there as quickly as possible. What would be your advice for some of them?

Well, I think, look, Europe has some fundamental differences compared to the United States in terms of how they think of human rights. So privacy is a human right in Europe. It's not in the US. So when you look at that underscoring everything and underpinning everything, there's going to be a difference, right? And the other thing is that Europe does a lot of regulation and not necessarily a ton of enforcement. So it's a lot of sort of saber rattling to these companies, and then nothing happens. Whereas in the US, when they get fined, they get fined and they pay. But it takes— it's a higher bar to get there, maybe. So I think the US companies, you know, there's going to be a reckoning at some point in regulation and AI. And, you know, as much as they're trying to get involved with having that conversation with leadership in Washington, Brussels, Beijing, wherever, you know, it can't all be self-serving. You really have to look at, you know, what it is that you're ultimately doing throughout the organization in the world. Because the, like I said, the Europeans tend to look at it from a human rights perspective. So that's a very different lens than from a, you know, we're going to win the arms race with China perspective. So, but it's going to shift. It's going to shift.

So how should leaders then think differently about cybersecurity in an AI-enabled world?

Well, look, I think some of the challenges that leadership has today is, you know, they're deploying an agent, but they don't know that that agent's deploying another agent's deploying another agent. You know, they have no idea what's actually sitting on their system. They don't know what agents are doing on their system, even worse. And that's, that's assuming like, you know, a benevolent world. Now, you know, if you think about a nation state having the ability to deploy an agent inside of your company, like imagine the harm that could be done. And that gets really sort of apocalyptic and scary very quickly. But I'm not sure that everybody's sort of deploying the real sort of cybersecurity that needs to be deployed today to understand like what even just what's sitting on their network. And then there's a chasm where leadership tends to skew older. And you have the young people that are coming in that really know how to use these tools. So they're deploying stuff left, right, and center because there's no barrier to stop them. There's no guardrails, right? And so the leadership is like, oh, everything's fine. And, you know, when you probably go and look, it's not. And that's even before you assume that the company's compromised or something bad could be happening. So it's that chasm of education and understanding is a problem, but then also just the, you know, what are these guys actually putting on the network? Like what are they, and which documents are they putting into ChatGPT or, you know, wherever? So like, I just don't think that the guardrails are really there yet.

True. So let's talk about leadership under pressure, something you are very familiar with because you've operated in ICE-Techs, environment, how do you make decisions when the data is, one, incomplete and the stakes are high, especially when you don't have much time to build trust within your team? How do you do it?

Well, I hate to say it, a lot of it is gut. You have to sort of rely on your experience of operating in those environments and figuring out maybe it's not the best decision, but it might be the least worst decision that you're making at that point in time. And I think the other thing is keeping an open mind and really adapting to change very quickly. So, it's not necessarily that you're making a decision with not enough information. But when new information comes in, how quickly can you pivot? How quickly can you say, 'Oh, I did that. That was wrong. Let's go this way,' without making it whipsaw? But you have to be self-aware enough to be able to make that change, to admit that challenge or that the environment's changed, quite frankly. Like something could change externally that would require you to rethink the whole thing. And also lead. I mean, you have to lead at the same time. And you have to bring people along. And sometimes that's going to upset people. And that has to be OK. If you liken it to— think about the person who has the most high-stakes job in the world is a trauma surgeon. Somebody is dying. There's actively a life dying. He can't get in an argument with a cardiovascular surgeon about whether something should be done first or second. And then the orthopedic surgeon argues. You know, the trauma surgeon is the be-all and end-all decision maker in that process. So if you are that be-all and end-all decision maker, you're gonna probably upset some people and hurt some feelings, and you're gonna have to realize that that can be fixed afterwards because you've got to fix the crisis first and then, you know, go and say, this is why I made those decisions. And I, I think those postmortems too, after the fact, are really important to kind of get people to understand and, and everybody to understand where mistakes were made where you could have pivoted faster, where you could have gone a little bit slower. But if you don't have that postmortem conversation, then feelings remain hurt and people kind of get annoyed at each other.

I really love what you said, especially about the postmortem. I think that is so important. Although in some organizations I've seen people go through postmortem because they kind of have to based on their SOPs, but then they don't do anything with it. It doesn't update any of their procedures.

It's such an opportunity to learn. It's such an opportunity to learn.

It definitely is. Now, how do you build trust then in environments where trust is fragile or might be nonexistent?

Well, look, I operate across borders, so that's sort of the operating stakes in almost anything that I do. And it's very culturally different because I think, you know, if you look at Europe, for instance, I remember one of my AVG board members told me, you know, I won't trust you for the first 2 years you work with me.

Wow.

And that sort of seemed like a random statement, but it's very true. Trust building takes time. And the problem is that when you're in a crisis, you don't have time. That's sort of the one commodity you don't have. But I think, you know, showing up, being accountable, being humble, admitting when you're wrong, you know, all of those things build trust over time. And then, you know, I think, again, you have to realize that there are massive cultural differences. There are high trust societies and low trust societies. Some people just aren't ever going to trust you. And, you know, you can't— it's not worth spending all your time trying to build that relationship.

Yes.

And I think, again, going through the postmortem and really sitting down and saying like, okay, I want to hear what you would have done differently. Like, like, you know, evaluate me, like, tell me what I did wrong and help me understand that because that will help me learn. But then actually doing something with that knowledge, not just, you know, going through the exercise.

I like that. It goes back to leading with humility, something we definitely could use more in Silicon Valley for sure. But, wow. So, what is your philosophy? Because really, most of the industries where you have led, they're really male-dominated still. So, what's your philosophy on leading in male-dominated, high-pressure environments?

You got to have a thick skin. I mean, you really do. You know, I've always operated— every environment I've been in, I've been pretty much, with few exceptions, the most senior female leader in the room. And, you know, there's sort of an expectation that by definition of that, you're going to pull other female leaders up. And so I've always tried to be very clear and very fair and just say, look, this is who I am, like it or not, you're not going to hurt my feelings. You can say whatever you want to say, you'd say to a male colleague. And, you know, also not being afraid to be bold and call them out. So not in a confrontational way, but But I think that, you know, having a different perspective, and I'm very blessed with the background that I have because I have a very global perspective, which I bring to the room that they just can't compete on. So it's not an equal fight, if you will. So I picked like the areas where I know I'm, you know, they can't really compete and I'll maybe acquiesce and give in the areas that where we're a little bit more equal.

Now, maybe it's because I became a father of two girls, and if it wasn't for our family dog, I'd be the only male in my family. But sometimes I'm just flabbergasted, I guess is the right word. We are in 2026, in the age of AI, but still women are not quite equal to men in the most powerful country in the world, and I don't understand that. There are, I think, slightly more women than men. Definitely they tend to be more educated, and There's still, though, when you look at the top, politics, Fortune 500, it's all led by men. So I think they— I don't know, I feel like it's getting a little bit better, especially in cybersecurity. 10, 15 years ago, I hardly saw any women. Now I see more and more women in positions of leadership, but it's still not where it's supposed to be, in my opinion. What are your thoughts on that? How can we move the needle, make it more equitable?

Well, look, I think you're also dealing with, um, you know, a lot of women who got there and fought their way to the top, and they don't want to reach the hand down to the women underneath them. And actually, they are probably the worst offenders. There's a lot of men that will do that, but a lot of the women are awfully like, look, I got here on my own, you got to figure it out on your own, like, I'm not going to help you, why should I, why should I take all of this experience and all of these scars I have and make it easy for you? And there's not a lot of women that support women. So I think that's part of the problem. And I think that's endemic of sort of the kids that grew up in the '90s, sort of the Gen X women tend to be a little bit more like that. It's shifting in the newer generation, the younger generations. But I think they don't see gender and they don't see things in the same way as maybe we do. But yeah, I mean, look, there needs to be more of it. And I think it comes directly to a question of leadership style too. So, you know, I think—

was it Madeleine Albright who said that there's a special place in hell for women like that?

Yeah, I mean, I agree 100% with that statement, by the way. But I think the other thing is that, you know, women lead differently than men. And when it comes to diplomacy and coalition building and, you know, sort of bottoms up, like you see a lot of female political leaders in Europe because it's a bottoms up coalition building exercise. You can't come in and just say, this is how we're going to do it. Right. And so it depends on how the organizational culture is shifted, because if it is a, you know, we're doing it this way, my way or the highway, and it's top, you know, top down.

Yes.

You're not going to find a lot of women rising to the top in that environment necessarily, or it's much harder for them. If it requires a lot of coalition building, a lot of cross-functional skills, a lot of communications, those are environments where women tend to do better. You see that in communications firms. You see that in, you know, in true diplomacy, not top-down diplomacy. So yeah, I think it depends a little bit on the culture of the organization.

Yeah, it's kind of like the leader in Australia during COVID She did such a wonderful job, just the way she was able to lead a country in the face of this global pandemic. And a lot of male leaders in many other countries just couldn't lead at all. And so many people died unnecessarily. But yeah, it is kind of strange to me. So how do you balance toughness with empathy? Again, being a woman in industries that are heavily led by men?

I think the empathy piece is I approach it, you know, I would change empathy maybe to dignity. So approach every human with dignity and the fact that, you know, they are there, they're doing probably the best that they can, and always assume positive intent until proven otherwise. So that's sort of my initial, and maybe that comes, empathy comes with that.

Yes.

And also, you know, you never know what somebody's carrying. So I would put that in there too, because sometimes people make decisions and they say things because, you know, they just had a bad morning at home with their kids, right? And it's not necessarily indicative of them being a bad leader. It's just that that particular day is that. So, you know, taking that into consideration, if it's something way out of character, then having a conversation and saying like, hey, what's going on? But look, when you need to be tough, be tough. You know, I'm Irish by background. Like, we don't put up with any crap from people. So, you know, it's like, if you have to, and I think the reality is you only probably have to be tough once or twice. Word gets around very quickly that that's not something that's going to work. But I think the other piece of it is, you know, my father taught me very early on that fairness is the ultimate sort of, I would say, characteristic that you want to be known for. So be fair. Don't treat people differently. Be fair. And when you're fair and people know they have a fair shake, then I think it kind of pushes through those other pieces.

Wow, that is quite insightful. Last question I'm going to ask about this is, when do you know when to push and when to pause?

I would say early in my career, I probably pushed too much. And you learn those lessons the hard way. I think sometimes you have to pause when emotion, when the emotional stakes are high, when the financial stakes are high. It's sometimes worth just taking a step back and saying, are we doing the right thing? Yes. And then if we're doing the right thing, then let's all agree we're going to go all in and do it. If we feel like we're not doing the right thing, then let's rethink what it's going to take to get us there. To do the right thing. So that's probably the framing I would put around it.

That's really powerful. Like I say, you've written more than 4 books. We won't be able to go through all of them, but I do want to take a little time and talk about your latest book, which is now available on Amazon Kindle and soon will be available in print, right? Digital Sugar: How Platform Engineered Addiction and What Parents Must Know. I think this could save the life of a child for sure. Before I do, I do have a question from a member of the live audience. Daniel is asking, "Shervin, you operate at the highest level of power and influence, but your tone today is deeply humble and human. How do you personally balance that humility with the outcalls and sharp edges required in cyberpower and geopolitics?" Huh, good question.

It's a fantastic question. You know, I think The answer to that is I have elbows, and if I need to use them, I use them. And sometimes what you find is when you're a little bit more humble and you're a little bit more thoughtful, people don't quite know how to take you. So, they don't know when the elbows are going to come out and not come out. But make no mistake, I'm absolutely not afraid to use them. But that's not my de facto operating way. Like, I don't want to get to that point. But if I have to, I will. And you get a reputation for that. So people will then kind of push up to that limit and then say, oh, I better back down a little. Okay.

I don't think this is a question, but it's a comment again from the live audience. Erica Sandoval says, approaching every human with dignity makes a huge impact. I agree. I do B2B sales for a living. And the only way I close successful deals is when I acknowledge the needs of the human Behind the company. Thanks for bringing empathy to business, Shabnam. That is so true. All right. Your message is having a big impact. So this book, I think it's an instant bestseller about digital sugar. I think this is so timely. Why did you feel like you had to write this book? Why did this book have to be written?

So, as you know, what I've done in my career for A lot of parents reached out to me and said, friends and friends and friends, something's happened to my kid online. What do I do? How do I fix it? So I was doing all that work kind of for free and thinking about it, but not really committed to it full time. And there's definitely a need for it. You see everything that's happening with the platform companies today. Our kids are anxious already. They are being bullied online. The bullying is pervasive. Stop. It's all night long. It's all day long. You can't get away from it. Kids are killing themselves. And I just had enough. So I wanted to really think about how do— how do I take all the knowledge that I have at the intersection of the things that I have and say to parents, you know, this is how you should think about it. So it's— it's really divided into— into 3 pieces. One is, you know, just how to talk to your kids. You know, how do you talk to your kids? Because if your kids do something stupid, like, you don't want to say like, oh, that was really dumb, because the kid's already in a shame cycle and it's really hard for the kid to come talk to you, right? So it's, it's part of it is how do you talk to the child. The second piece is what are they doing and what platforms are they on, right? Most parents don't even know, and so they don't know the harm, they don't know the platform, they don't understand, you know, what those platforms are being used for. And then, you know, the part of the book that you never want to, want to use is the something bad has happened, what do I do? How do I fix it? Yeah. So I just took all that knowledge and said, we're going to put it together, you know, we're going to push it out on the website. I want every parent to have access to that.

Yes. No, that is really insightful and again, timely, not just for cybersecurity professionals, but parents. And I think every parent out there would definitely want to know how to handle this social media. But let me ask you just about the title itself. What is digital sugar?

Well, I picked it, you know, I was trying to think of something edgy that would resonate with people. And, you know, we've all been told consuming sugar is bad for us. It's not good for our brain. It's not good for our body. It's not good for a lot of things. So, you know, the sort of play on words of digital sugar, because there's a couple of things at play. There's both the algorithm and the manipulation and the fact that, I mean, anybody who has a teenager or young child knows if you give that phone to them and you take that phone away, like it ends in a screaming match because that kid does not want to give that up. And part of it, as I was also trying to play on the, you know, the way the algorithms think about it, like you think about sugar and Coke that gets you addicted, you think about the algorithms that get you addicted. So it was a little bit of a play on words for that.

So what are some of the biggest dangers leaders are ignoring when it comes to technology and human behavior, especially for teenagers who are not fully developed yet?

Well, I think it's twofold. You know, teenagers' brains, like the prefrontal cortex, just doesn't develop. And so we're hitting them with algorithms that were designed to, you know, be used on slot machines effectively to enable consistent dopamine hit after dopamine hit after dopamine hit. And so we're leveling these kids out because when they're not on those devices, there's no dopamine. So, you know, they don't get that hit. And so they get more addicted to the device. I also think it's an interesting concept when you look at these kids that are growing up a little— they're maybe a little bit older in their 20s and they're going into the workforce. You know, they've grown up in that sort of social media, maybe addiction kind of area.

Yes.

And it creates a different kind of management challenge for managing those, those kids as well. So I think people don't really know. They just, they just don't know. It's so new. They don't know. And again, you know, the regulatory environment is so far behind it. That there's just not enough information out there.

Yeah, talking about regulatory environment in America, I guess we don't even have a privacy law really. I guess 1974 was the Privacy Act, but that was for the government. Yeah, we definitely have a lot of catching up to do. Sometimes I wonder what Congress is doing all year, whatever they do in Washington, D.C. It's incredible. So how is digital over-conception affecting the next generation? Of leaders?

Well, I think, look, there's a couple of things that are going on. You have this notion of the perpetual competition for attention. And these micro-attentions and multitasking. So they're on their phone, they're on their computer. The brain is distracted. There's no time to think deeply. We're starting to see the effects also of AI on critical thinking and the ability to slow down and really think about the interconnections and this doom-scrolling. If you think about, you know, TikTok in China is used for educational content. TikTok everywhere else in the world is used for, you know, consuming garbage, basically. So, you know, I think the dangers there are the fact that, you know, the fragmentation of attention, the inability for critical thinking, you know, that need and that desire for perpetual approbation of being always on, always getting a like, always getting hit, dopamine hit, dopamine hit. Dopamine hit, dopamine hit. That fundamentally rewires the brain. It also rewires how people interact with each other. I mean, I'm sure anybody who's got teenagers has seen this, right? Or young kids, like they will all sit in a room. Like the joke is you have a sleepover these days and they'll all sit in the room on their phones texting each other in the same room because that's become the de facto format of conversation. It's short form. It's unemotional. There's no human connection or element to it. And I think we're missing a huge, huge opportunity to get those kids to connect so that they can function in society when they're older.

Yes, that's exactly what happened to my family and I definitely had to do something about it. I think both my daughters in the same room but texting each other instead of just talking. That just didn't make any sense to me at all. And also people of their generation where they break up with their boyfriend or girlfriend by text.

Or just like ghost them, right? Yeah. Just stop talking to them.

Yeah, that's like, wow, this is incredible. I would have never imagined that. I am a Gen X, no, that's not the way we were raised. So it's definitely a big problem. So we talked about the parents. I guess parents do have some responsibility, but what about the tech companies themselves and just leaders across society? What responsibility do they have in addressing this?

Well, I think first of all, being transparent about what their platforms do and how they're monetizing the brains of young kids. There's zero transparency. And it's sort of like until something bad gets found out and shared, um, they keep going. And even when something bad comes out, gets shared, they get fined, they still keep going. So, um, you know, I feel like the tech companies have a lot of responsibility. There's a lot they can do, but they choose not to do because it's going to hurt their bottom line. There's a question to me about board liability. I mean, I grew up in cyber and finance. There's board liability, right? There's, there's investor liability. Like, none of that exists on the tech platforms. Like you said earlier, it's the Wild West. They just do what they want. So, you know, we have to figure out how to address that. And I'm not necessarily suggesting that a whole bunch of regulations is the right idea, but there has to be some way to get this, you know, more into the realm of where they have some responsibility in the downstream chain of what's going on.

But what really I don't know, frustrate me is, it was, was it last year, maybe the year before, right? There was a child teenager in Florida who died using one of those chatbots because he was in love and they were gonna meet in artificial intelligence event or whatever. So even when a kid, a human being dies, there is absolutely no repercussion, no law, no, no, nothing. Everything just as, no. It, it just doesn't make any sense to me. Congress doesn't want to do anything, and nobody is taking any action whatsoever. I mean, again, a human being, a child just died.

But yeah, there's a lot of them. I mean, we work— we're working on them on a multitude of cases where exactly that has happened. There's no accountability, and it's very difficult, you know. First of all, you know, it's a parent against a sort of David versus Goliath because it's one parent against a huge platform. And if you look at the cost of harm to a family, on average, it's $170,000 for a family to recover from some kind of online bullying event, be that, you know, psychological services, mental health services, time off somebody had to take to shuffle the kid back and forth, lost wages, all of that. It costs a platform like 0.0000001% of revenue in legal fees to make that problem go away. Yeah. So there's an asymmetry there. And so my question is, what number do you put on the value of a life of a child? If you look at, you know, what you get paid out in different countries if your child dies, that is really stark. It's really stark. And you start to think of, you know, what— where you, where you send your kids to school, how you think about who their friend groups are, you know, what role does the school play when they're acting in loco parentis for the, you know, 8 or whatever hours they're there? What culpability do they have? I mean, there's a whole, you know, the breakdown is in the entire ecosystem. It's not just one thing. And then, by the way, the platforms should just do better because they can.

Yes, yes, absolutely. Uh, but, but I feel like as, uh, tech leaders, we probably could do a lot more. Uh, but, uh, yeah.

It requires them being willing to listen. There's that as well, right?

Yes, true. Back to leading with humility is so important and really being aware too of how everything you are doing is affecting your local community. But for people who are parents who are reading your book right now, we're going to get a copy today, Digital Sugar: Our Platform-Engineered Addiction and What Parents Must Know. What is one piece of advice you would give to parents after they read your book?

So the biggest deterrent in the child-harm cycle in social media is the parent-teen relationship. And I'm talking about teenagers in particular.

Yes.

Parents really need to think of a couple of things. They need to understand how to talk to their teen. So if, if a teenager comes to you and says something bad happened online, Um, you know, the first, the very first thing should be, thank you for telling me. I have no judgment, just thank you for telling me, because the, the, that is such an incredibly high barrier that that teenager has crossed to come and admit that, because generally online harm involves exploitation or something of that nature. And then the second thing that they should say to them immediately is, this is not your fault. None of it is your fault. If somebody extorts images from these kids, if they share images online, it's not their fault. I mean, these algorithms were designed for gambling. They were not designed for teenagers.

And so that's really crazy. Like, even X recently, right, Grok, you are able to add children, like teenagers, and get a picture of them and then imagine how they look naked. Like, this is insane.

Yeah. Oh, that's why I started this company. I mean, it makes me so angry that that is allowed. There's very easy ways to stop that. But I think when you look at what, you know, the most important thing is that relationship between the child and the parent and creating a safe space for that child to come to you. And then also the other thing I would say is, you know, if there are sextortion images that are, you know, have naked pictures, please, please, please don't delete them. I know that is the instinct. It goes against all of you. All you want to do is just say, I want to get rid of that. Yeah, that is evidence. Do not delete it. Put a file on your desktop folder, put a file on your phone, put it in there. Don't ever look at it until you go to an attorney, but don't delete that. Because when you delete that evidence, you're helping these guys get away with it, because that's how they go in court and they say you can't prove it. Wow. So don't delete the evidence.

That's just terrible. So how should then leaders think about digital discipline for themselves and their teams?

Well, look, I think there's a lot of things that leaders face. So, you know, people that work for you have children, they have families, and they are possibly grappling with some of these things. I would love to see, you know, like the employee assistance plans have advice lines for these kinds of things so parents don't feel like they're fighting it alone. It's very hard when you're dealing with something like this to come to work and show up. It's also hard, by the way, when you're a young person in business. I mean, let's talk about Wall Street and all the bad behavior that happened in the '80s, right? That has now moved to the digital realm. So, there is exclusion and bullying that's going on on platforms inside of companies as well. So, you know, the companies need to kind of be aware of that and think of that. There's also a, how do you as a leader grapple with that? Do you set a zero tolerance policy? Do you just, you know, even when you can't enforce it, when it's not on a device, like where's your responsibility in just saying flat out, like, not going to tolerate that kind of behavior. But it's a new thing, right? It's not something that we've had to grapple with as leaders before to say like, oh, I don't care what you do on your own time. But, you know, don't exclude people. It's sort of like, don't not invite that kid to the birthday party.

Yes, yes. Wow, we really live in very interesting time for sure. And by the way, we both are wearing red today. We must have got the same memo. Let's talk about something you've done. I think it's really God's work. It's really timely and critical. Teenagers, right? Let's talk about this because I feel like you could potentially save the life of teenagers with the work you do. So you founded Teenagers. What moment made this personal for you? And again, people can go to teenagers.com and you said parent resources, you give away a lot of resources for free, which I can't believe. You are definitely an angel. Thank you for that.

So the point is, you know, it goes back to my friends calling me and saying, "What's going on?" And I started to notice an uptick in the number of kids that were hurting themselves and worse, killing themselves, right? So I've worked with a lot of emergency first responders and had a lot of conversations with them. They're on the front end of this harm and they absolutely don't know what to do about it. They hate it. They just wish that it never got to that point. And they see the heartbreak that it causes for families. And again, I just had enough, right? I told you I like big, messy global problems. This is, I would argue, the biggest, messiest global problem of our time today because it's not in any one country. It's pervasive everywhere. And, you know, the problem is, again, the harm to one family is so disproportionate to the harm to a company that that asymmetry bothered me a lot. So I, you know, I decided I have a teenager as well, so I just got tired of it and said, like, what can I do? And then I started really thinking about it and I realized that, you know, I have a really interesting skill set to bring to this because they can wiggle out of certain pieces of it, but not when you put all of those aggregate pieces together.

That is so true. And we said I'm going to put it on the screen again. People can go to teenagers.com/ parent-resources, and we will get all of those resources for absolutely free. Why did you provide those resources for free when you could have made, you know, a few bucks out of them? We are capitalist society after all.

Yeah, I mean, I could have made a lot of money on it, um, because I don't think that any parent who is doom scrolling at 3 o'clock in the morning trying to figure out whether their child in the room next door to them is breathing should have to worry about finding a credit card to put $10 in to create, you know, a revenue model for me. I have heard all the stories. I've, you know, I just— it should be free. There's no question. I'm never going to put a dollar value on the life of a child. And so it is also disproportionately unfair to me when you think about equity, where some people can't afford it. $10 a month they can't afford. And why should that child not have the same opportunity as somebody who can afford it? So that was really the genesis of it. We monetize in a different way from hospitals and insurance companies. And things like that. And then we pass all of that on to just creating all the content for parents to raise awareness.

Wow, thank you. Thanks so much. I definitely would like to put a spotlight on all of that. What do you believe then that tech platforms are getting wrong about child safety today?

They're monetizing children. I mean, it's as fundamentally easy as that. They're monetizing kids. They have little accountability. They have very little empathy to the families that, you know, have lost kids. You just have to watch the testimony in any of these cases. It's sort of the fundamental notion of lack of accountability. And it's not my problem, it's the parents. A child was disturbed, you know, we didn't contribute to the harm of that child. It's the arrogance of the people running those platforms. It's all of it. And that's, you know, that's kind of why, why we're here.

Yeah, because you've definitely taken on big techs like David against Goliath. What resistance have you faced?

So we are one month and a week old, and we have had two cease and desist letters and one offer to purchase. So I feel like we're doing the right thing.

Wow, that's unbelievable. Yeah. What does courage then look like in leadership? Lead today? How do you lead when you know you are going to face opposition?

Well, I think again, it goes back to sort of my foundational roots of growing up all over the world and moving around. I'm pretty resilient, not really afraid of much. So part of it is you have to have that courage in yourself to know that you're going to be okay no matter what. And also that you're not going to back down when challenged. I've operated at the highest echelons of 3 different industries. So, you know, I've been challenged by presidents. I've been challenged by leaders of banks. I've been, you know, so fine, go ahead. But it's not going to stop me from doing what I'm doing. And I think leading in that, so the fun part was getting people to sort of join. And I had tons of people who wanted to join the company and come and help. And if you see the types of people that have joined the company, you know, they're people that have also operated in war zones around the world. So, you know, they're not getting shot at. It's a good day. It's a good day, right?

Yes, indeed. Yeah, I know. Intimately. Yes. Yes, indeed. I guess it does take courage. But I mean, the life of a child must mean something to everyone living in this country. I mean, if that doesn't mean anything, then why are we a society? That just doesn't make any sense. To me. And based on all the work you are doing with Teenagist, again, the website on teenagist.com, and go to parent-resources for all of your free resources. If you could change one policy globally tomorrow to protect children online, what would it be?

I think it's very simple. There should be no recommendation system or algorithm that reaches a minor until somebody independently has audited what it does to it, certified it, and that certification is public.

Yes. Yes. Wow. Okay. Looks like we have about 5 minutes left. I could talk to you all day, but let me ask you this for the last segment of this podcast. I kind of want to get into your head a little bit and see what leadership principles have allowed you to lead at the highest level in 3 separate industries and be as successful as you are, even giving you the courage to go after the tech company to protect our kids. It's just amazing. So let me start by asking you, what do you believe is one of the greatest lessons you have ever learned within leadership, in life, just in general?

Well, I think it comes from working, you know, the geopolitical stuff and working across cultures is, different people internalize things differently. And that is the greatest gift that you can have on a team when you have a cross-cultural team. It is also the biggest, biggest challenge when you have a cross-cultural team. But, you know, I think that's the one thing that I would say every organization should have. But it's not easy. And so it's sort of— there's a tension there.

Well, and how have you handled the tension in the past?

Um, that tension, uh, I think part of it is, is learning about other cultures.

Yes.

What, what makes that person think that way? Why?

Right.

And being, being curious, right? I'm very curious. Like, if you think a certain way and you're adamant about it, I want to understand why. Like, what got you there? How?

Why?

Because I can learn something from that. It's not because I want to convince you that my way is better, but maybe your way is better. But I'll never know if I don't ask ask you that question.

That is really insightful. It's really strange, you know, the blue passport in America is one of the most desired passports in the world, pretty much can get you in any countries. But I've met people in America who have never got out of their state. It's like, that's just crazy, crazy to me. Unbelievable. Yeah, especially when I lived in the Southeast, people were very proud. Oh, born in Alabama, I will die here, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, okay, okay, that's fine, but you probably need to, you know.

And they haven't gone to Georgia. Yeah.

You're thinking a A little bit. Okay. What do you believe is the secret to your success?

Taking risks, never giving up, being pretty resilient. You know, when you stumble, get back up. Just, you know, keep going. Sometimes that's easier said than done.

So that resilience, that grit that makes you get back up over and over again when things don't go your way. Where do you think that comes from?

Well, it's probably, like I mentioned earlier, a little bit in the Irish DNA. But I think it comes from the way I was raised. It comes from my parents. Like my parents said, you just don't quit. Like it's not an option. You just get up and keep going and it's going to be unpleasant and uncomfortable. And you keep doing that a couple of days, maybe on the third day it gets a little less unpleasant and a little less uncomfortable. And some days are going to be great and some days are going to be horrible. Just deal with them as they take on.

It's really a mindset, isn't it? And I know leaders are learners. What are you learning these days?

Well, I'm learning that it's fascinating to me what you make that comment that we should all be able to agree that the life of children matter. I'm learning that that's not always the case. I'm learning that some people think that they're expendable, which blows my mind, or don't matter in the context in the context of whatever political will or discussion has to be made. To me, that's a non-negotiable. But yeah, I'm not saying it's a good lesson to learn, but it's been an eye-opening one for sure.

Now, we kind of touched about this, but how has failure shaped your life?

Failure? It shaped it a lot. Look, I've made mistakes. I've learned from them. I try to pivot quickly. There's that joke in Silicon Valley, the tension between Silicon Valley and the East Coast. East Coast, if you failed once, you're a failure. Here in Silicon Valley, if you haven't failed once, nobody will invest in you.

Yes.

So we kind of fail, fail fast, learn, and move forward. So that's just kind of the mantra I try to live by as much as possible.

Yeah, it's something when I came here about 12 years ago, uh, that really shocked, shocked me because like in the government, the way we did software development, at least back then, you know, waterfall method, maybe once a year or once every 6 months we would update our codes. But these crazy Silicon Valley software engineers, they do like every week or they have like 2-week sprints. I'm like, this is crazy. And what am I going to be able to protect all of this code? But yeah, it was quite a shock. But yeah. Okay. We've already talked about your books. And again, everybody listening right now, I want you to get a copy right now available on Amazon Kindle. And soon it's going to be available in print as well. Digital Sugar, Our Platform Engineer Addiction, and What Parents Must Know. But you've also written this book about Cyber Militia: A Citizen Strategy to Fight, Win, and End War in Cyberspace. And especially for those following me who are in the military, this is a great, great, great book to read. And another one you wrote on privacy, Wide Open Privacy: Strategies for Digital Life. And I believe there was one more. You've written so many books. I missed one. Oh, I know you have the children's book, Little Bird Internet Security Adventure. This must be a really fun one, but I feel like there was another book.

No Harm.

No Harm. Okay, okay. That is right. So many books. So go ahead and purchase all of those, please. But now a book that you haven't written that you recommend. It looks like you do recommend this one, The Anxious Generation. Why should my audience read this?

I think it's so insightful in terms of how teenagers and how this generation thinks. The anxiety of growing up in an always-on, always-monitored, perpetually connected world is real. It's very real. And I think as managers and as leaders, when we're leading this younger generation, We have to think about it differently. I hear a lot of leaders from Gen X, you know, my generation, saying, oh, this is like the weakest, least resilient generation ever. And I kind of would like to flip that story and say they're actually way stronger and way more resilient than any of us. But it's different. It's different. So their resilience comes from like, you know, never being able to switch off, which creates anxiety, but that over time creates resilience. So it's just a different way of thinking about it. And I love Jonathan Haidt's, you know, he just puts it in words that make so much sense.

Powerful. Yeah, I'm sure they say that about Gen X too, but hopefully we prove them wrong. What about this one? And I know people in the military would be very familiar with The Art of War, but you read it for different reasons. Can you tell me why my audience should read this book?

I sort of use this as the context for negotiating conversations with my teenager. And the one piece I love is, you know, always give your enemy a gracious opportunity to retreat. And, you know, in the context of war, that's one thing. In the context of war with a teenager, that's a very different thing. But it's sort of fun perspective to keep. And I recently reread it and was thinking about it through that lens. So it was really nice. Yes.

Well, this is really, really fun. Yeah, I know the majority of people who who follow me who are in any branch of the military, they very, very much know this book. So, uh, if you could choose 3— actually, technically we are out of time. Can I get 5 more minutes before we close?

Sure. Okay.

If you had 3 people, uh, to have dinner with, right, that could be alive, dead, or fictitious characters, who would you choose and why?

I'd choose Albert Einstein because I just would think he would be super interesting and fascinating. I'd choose the Dalai Lama because I I think, um, you know, when I think about somebody who works across cultures and who's spoken to almost every world leader in the world and has a perspective, I think that would be interesting. And, um, the third one I'd bring to the table is probably Mark Zuckerberg, just hoping that he would learn something through osmosis being there.

I hope so. Yeah, actually, recently I was thinking, looks like Pope Leo I, American Pope, is pretty good. Uh, I would definitely have to have a meeting with him. I just like the, the way he handles himself on the world stage and how much he shows compassion, uh, for the world. It's, it's pretty amazing. All right, so is there maybe a song, a book, or a movie that would be your life's theme or anthem?

I don't know about that. Um, I, I have a lot of, you know, ones that I like. I like sort of, uh, like, I, first of all, I'm a huge fan of spy movies, so any and all of those And then there's a movie Beyond Borders with Angelina Jolie and Clive Owen about— it's sort of a drama, but it's interesting around the conflict of being in a war zone, being in a privileged society. And I won't give it away, but it's pretty interesting.

Very good. Beyond Borders. I haven't seen that one yet. I will add that to my list. I guess I'm a little bit selfish. Part of the reason why I do this podcast, I need to know what do I need to read or watch next. If you had one and only one day to live, what would you have liked your final contribution to be?

I want to solve this problem with kids. That's it.

Yeah, that's really critical. I mean, it should be nothing more important than that for a society, really. And so I think I know what you might say. If you had the magic wand, you could solve any problem in in the world, what is the one problem you'd like to solve first thing tomorrow morning?

Compassion for one another. You probably didn't think I was going to say that, but yeah, compassion and understanding and empathy. I mean, they all go together, but just, you know, everybody's a human being and everybody's carrying a weight and a burden. And, you know, you mentioned Thunderbird. The motto is borders frequented by trade seldom need soldiers. And that goes back to the fact that when we understand each other, when we work together, and when we take the time to get get to know one another, we build relationships, that builds trust. You're less likely to fight with people when that happens. So yeah.

Wow. And if you had the ear of all of the Silicon Valley tech leaders, really giant, I mean, they've really changed society. I think for a long time they tried to do it for the best, but not always. What would you tell them?

Do better. Yeah, yeah, do better. I mean, they can, they all can. It's a choice. So just do better.

All right, so we've come to the end of the show. I've already shown the Teenagers website, but this is where I ask, what can my audience do to add value back to you? Thanks so much for your time here today. This has been quite insightful. Thank you.

Thank you.

So what can my audience do for you?

I would like basically everybody to give it to every parent so every parent has access to the resources so that if something happens they know what to do, they know how to preserve evidence and they know how to get, you know, get these things taken down and just really, you know, that's really it. Get the word out.

So Teenagers.com parents resources. Powerful, powerful. And what I'm going to add, yes, do that, Follow Siobhan on LinkedIn and also get a copy of her book, especially the latest book, which is on Digital Sugar. I think it's really great, critical, I think, for teenagers, but for— sorry, for adults also. All right, so I guess the last question I am going to ask you, knowing everything you know now and having gone through all of the experience you've, you've actually— before I ask this last question, is there a question I should have asked you I didn't get to ask? Anything else you wanted to cover today?

Uh, well, you— I think we talked a little bit about sort of daily habits to keep you grounded. I do meditate a lot. Um, I do. I'd probably lose my mind if I didn't. But that intentional grounding of remembering, you know, why I do what I do every day— it's not hard to remember, but sometimes it's hard not to go down the doom gloom of it because it's heavy. It can be very heavy. So really being intentional and figuring out, you know, how to go about the day.

That is really, really powerful. And I have also talked to a special operation member, like, you know, SEALs and Rangers, and they say they do have to spend a lot of time meditating too, otherwise they would go crazy.

I get it.

Yeah, that's a very, very important thing to learn for sure. So So my last question for you is, if you could go back and give a piece of advice to your 17-year-old self, standing at the edge of this incredible career you've had in intersectional industries and leading at the highest level possible, what would you say to 17-year-old Siobhan?

Two things. Don't take yourself so seriously and be bolder and drive harder, faster. Powerful.

And you believe that being a woman shouldn't be an obstacle to doing that?

It's not.

Yes. I really want to see America. I want to be alive during that time for the sake of my daughters where it doesn't matter if you're male or a woman, you could lead at the highest level possible based on your own ability. We are not quite there yet. Even women still make what, about 80 cents on the dollar for the same job?

Something like that, yeah.

As men. This doesn't make any sense at all, and that's definitely unfair, and I think we can do something about it. Uh, all right, thank you, thank you, thank you so much. And because sometimes we do talk about, uh, heavy things, I like to leave on an optimistic note. What is something you are feeling quite optimistic about these days?

I'm feeling optimistic that there's going to be change in this environment. I really do. I think we're at an absolutely pivotal global moment where countries are coming together, regulators are coming together, Policymakers are coming together, parents are coming together. So I think it will change for the better. I think we're just at that sort of moment, that incipient moment.

Very good. And then the last question I ask every single guest is, what is one word that represents our shared experience on this podcast today? Thanks again for your time.

Beautiful.

Beautiful. Well, I am so, so grateful. I've learned something and I really love what you are doing. And I believe my tribe is going to be supporting what you're doing because It's really existential and it's critical. If our kids don't mean anything to us, then I think I am in the wrong country, in the wrong society. Then it doesn't make sense.

On the wrong planet.

Yes, exactly. Exactly. So you are doing God's work. And thank you for the courage to stepping up. And I really hope more and more people are going to join you on this side. So thanks again.

Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it.

All right, everybody, this is one for the book. Like I say, follow Siobhan on LinkedIn. That's linkedin.com/InShovanMcDermott. And if you a parent, teenagers.com/parentresources, free resources for your children because this is a real, real issue. And of course, get a copy of a book available on Amazon and soon to be available everywhere books are sold, Digital Sugar: How Platforms Engineered Addiction and What Parents Must Know. All right, this is it for today. Tomorrow I'm going to be back and I'm going to be interviewing one of my mentors, Admiral Sinclair Harris, retired, U.S. Navy, tomorrow morning. You do not want to miss this. And then after him, I'm going to be interviewing Colonel Octavia Scott, U.S. Army. That's going to be quite a conversation. And then later in the evening tomorrow, I will be talking to retired Lieutenant Colonel Glenn Axelrod. So it's going to be military day tomorrow. We're going to be talking about great leaders. Who have done so much for our national security and leadership lessons we can learn from them. Okay, that's all I have for today. And just a reminder that our friend in the spotlight this week is the one and only Aubrey Brughauer. She's been called the Steve Jobs of classical music, just a phenomenal woman doing great, great things. And I want everybody to follow her on LinkedIn and you can read the post I wrote about her, about everything she's been able to achieve and get a copy of her book as well. All right, that's it for now. Uh, see you tomorrow. Thank you for watching.

Bye.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.