S5E17🎙️ LIVE with General Larry O. Spencer, USAF (Ret.)

Hi, I'm John Maxwell. When the top companies in the world are looking for trainers, speakers, and coaches, there's one name that stands above the rest, and that's Maxwell Leadership. Our certified team members have gotten proven results for companies all over the globe, and our reputation, I'm proud to say, is second to none. Some of our members have risen to the top of their profession, including the one you're going to meet today. I proudly introduce you to my friend, Bob Fabien Zinga.

Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ, where we help you lead with purpose and succeed with impact. If you're ready to grow into the kind of leader others want to follow, this podcast is for you. If you're determined to elevate your success and leave a lasting legacy, this podcast is for you. As my mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell, reminds us, everything rises and falls on leadership. Our goal is simple, to inspire you, challenge you, and equip you with insights that can transform the trajectory of your leadership journey. Welcome aboard to Welcome to another episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast with Coach BZ.

I was born in the '50s. We lived in Southeast D.C. for 20 years, no car. So I hitchhiked to work every day. On my lunch hour, I walked by a recruiter's office. I sort of stumbled into his office, and about an hour later, I stumbled out of there and I was in the Air Force. Education, me getting my college degree, changed my life. I think it's important to try to expand your education, expand your knowledge, expand your experience so we can be better people. During my Air Force career and post-Air Force career, education is something that I've always emphasized and always will. Life and your career, it's a game, and you got to get out there and play, and you're going to get tackled, knocked down, somebody bigger than you is going to push you around. Get in the weight room, come back, and try it again. It's okay to try and fail, but it's not okay not to try. And I would just say to veterans, thank them all for their service. When you walk through an airport and folks recognize you're in the military and they say thank you for your service, they really believe it and they really mean it.

All right everyone, welcome to a very special episode of the Leadership and Success podcast. We have a legend in the green room right now. A man who doesn't need any introduction. But before I introduce him quickly, I'm reminded of our moment of gratitude. And this morning, my earlier podcast, I was really grateful just to be a US citizen. I believe America is still, right, the home of the brave and the land of the free. And I am so proud and glad that I've had the opportunity to wear our country's uniform. And America is definitely a dream worth fighting for. So I am very grateful for our country. So let us know in the comment what you are grateful for. Let us know where you are joining us from. I want to say hello to Daniel Young coming to us from Midland, Florida. And also, if you have a question for the general, please type it in the comment and we will try to answer all of your, uh, questions live today. All right, let me see if I can, uh, try to introduce a man who doesn't need any introduction. He's gone from being an airman to 4-star general. The Dark Horse Journey of General Larry O. Spencer. General Spencer's journey from Southeast Washington, D.C. to the Pentagon is nothing but a masterclass in resilience, stewardship, and principled leadership. He has led nearly 700,000 airmen, guided the Air Force through fiscal constraint, launched the Every Dollar Counts innovation movement, and continues to serve military families through nonprofit and board leadership even after. He laid down his uniform. This is leadership earned, not assumed. So ladies and gentlemen, please help me welcome a legend to the Leadership and Success Podcast. Please welcome General Larry Spencer. Good morning, good afternoon, General. How are you doing today, sir?

I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

It's really a great honor to have you here, and your story is really inspirational and Incredible. Maybe to get started, sir, is there something you are grateful for today?

I'm grateful to be here, grateful to be, you know, part of this country, grateful for my family. So yeah, just, I'm just so grateful to be an American and here, still upright and still trying to serve.

Wow, that is really incredible. And is there something about you, sir, that most people may not know? When they first meet you?

Most people don't know I really like old cars. So I've got a project now of a 1972 Monte Carlo that I'm working on.

Wow.

And a lot of people know this, but some don't. I'm a really big sports fan. So, you know, right now, not feeling too great because I'm a Washington Commanders fan, as you can see in the picture there.

Yes.

But also a Carolina basketball fan and, you know, Washington Nationals baseball. So a big sports fan.

Well, sir, I must tell you, when I was doing a little bit of research on your background, pretty much every picture I saw you, you were always, always smiling. I mean, no matter what, no matter where you were, always, always smiling. I have to ask you, sir, I know you've gone through a lot of challenges and you've led in environments that are high pressure. What is maybe the secret of your strength? Why are you always smiling, always full of joy, no matter what?

Well, I don't know that it's a secret, but, you know, I lean heavily on my faith, uh, and so I, you know, it's, you know, every day is a good day when you, if you wake up and get up, it's a good day. And yes, the reason to be mad or upset with people, frankly, I think, you know, part of the challenges our country has now is everybody's mad at each other.

Yes.

Uh, and, you know, we don't know how to disagree without being disagreeable. And so, yeah, I, I, you know, I don't, I don't see anything to be mad about, to be honest with you. I mean, things would be a lot worse.

Wow, that is just incredible. You have a really incredible story. And of course, I'm asking my audience to get your bestselling book, Dark Horse, right? This is your journey from the horseshoe to the Pentagon. It's just incredible. Maybe, sir, the first question I'm going to ask is, you began your career as an enlisted airman, which is incredible, to 4-star general. In the most powerful Air Force in the universe with no college degree, and later you became the Vice Chief of Staff of the Air Force. When you look back over your journey, what inner belief kept you moving forward when the path ahead wasn't obvious?

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, growing up in Southeast DC, you know, my father was an enlisted Army, uh, 20 years. Uh, my mother had not even graduated high school. Um, and so, you know, my, my self-esteem, self-worth was frankly not very high. Um, and, uh, but I was very, very competitive, and particularly in sports. And unfortunately, I wasn't as competitive academically as I wish I had been. Uh, but Every day I'd come home, take off my school clothes, and we'd be outside playing something— football, basketball. So I became very, very competitive, and I think that sort of drove me to want to be— whatever I got into, I wanted to be the best at it, or at least give 100% of what I was doing. I think it was helpful that my parents, my grandparents were very, very hard workers. They didn't make a lot of money, but they woke up every day and went to work. And what was interesting to me is they really never complained. I mean, they, you know, things obviously were tougher for them than it was for me, but I watched them, you know, my father, his last assignment was right here in D.C. at Walter Reed Hospital, but he would work part-time at the NCO club out at Walter Reed. And so there were days where he'd leave home at 4:30, 5 o'clock in the morning and not get home till 1, 2 o'clock in the morning.

Wow.

And then when he was home, we were always working. I mean, we had to, you know, I learned very young how to scrub floors and buff floors and paint and drywall and you name it, uh, you know, washing cars and delivering newspapers and shoveling snow. And, you know, I've worked, I've done everything, worked on trash truck. I mean, you name it, I've been It was all about, you know, getting up, you know, and putting one foot in front of the other.

Yes.

And, and, and just moving forward. And so I, I've always had sort of an inner drive. I don't know exactly where that came from other than the example I saw. And I was also very, always very competitive with myself. But I did have to deal early on with self-esteem, sort of self-worth, because it was very difficult. Uh, you know, growing up again in that neighborhood, and I don't mind telling you, you know, an all-Black neighborhood. My school was all Black, you know, church was all Black, and that's not neither good or bad, it just is what it is. But what was the— what was bombarded at me through the media and through books and magazines was folks that I saw that were successful. That I saw that was successful. Doctors, you know, lawyers, uh, you know, folks, uh, you know, when my— yeah, go buy a car, my father went by car, you know, none of those folks in positions of success looked like me, uh, and that was bombarded at me by our environment. And so I did used to wonder why, you know, why is that, uh, But my, my favorite, um, television show when I was a little kid was Superman, and I would watch that every day. Uh, you know, Superman, Lois Lane, and all that. But, uh, but none of them look like me. Santa Claus didn't look— I mean, it was— it just went on and on and on. And I'm not saying that to complain, uh, I'm just saying that's the way it was. In a lot of cases It continues to be that way. And so it took a while for the light bulb to come on for me that, you know, I can, if I'm willing to put in the work and put in the effort, then I can do whatever I want to do. And so yes, it was an interesting beginning. But, you know, as I've said many times, it's, it's not where you start, it's where you end up that counts most.

Hmm, that is really Insightful and quite fascinating too. So was there maybe a moment, sir, when you almost accepted the ceiling others placed on you?

Yeah, there were. I mean, you know, I don't know how it is in the Navy, but in the Air Force, pilots tend to rise to the top jobs. And I assume in the Navy, there's probably equivalent You know, I went to Marine Corps Command and Staff College, so I know infantry for the Marine Corps was a big deal. And, and, and by the way, I, I don't, I don't think that's a bad thing that the Air Force, you know, at least back, of course, we didn't have the Space Force then, but the Air Force would be primarily led by, you know, pilots. I'm, I was, so I'm not complaining about that either, but there were, since I was not a pilot, there were a lot of folks who told me I could not go but so high, that I would, you know, there would be a limit to how far I could go. Uh, and I found that throughout my life, throughout my career, uh, people try to put limits on you. You know, I was telling someone the other day, uh, when I used to drop my granddaughter off for daycare, what was fascinating to me was she— I would drop her off, her face would light up, and there were— it was probably one of the most diverse daycares I've ever seen. I mean, you name an ethnicity or race or creed and they were in there, and my granddaughter could care less. She didn't even know what any of that meant. She saw kids her age and she wanted to go play. What's bad about that though is at some point in her life and I've worked hard to combat against that, someone's going to tell her, you're a woman, you can't do this, you know, you're Black, you can't do that. Um, and, and, you know, we parents, we do that to them. They're not born that way. Uh, so I, I think it's really important, uh, for all of us, uh, to try our best to make the, you know, the, the generation coming behind us better than we were. Because obviously our generation has some of those, some of that baggage that they continue to perpetuate.

That is so, so true. And like you've said, sir, just being Black in the US Armed Forces, a 4-star general, whether you like it or not, you are a role model for so many of us. I mean, it's very, very rare to see, and when we do see that, I mean, it is, it is just a great example of what we all aspired to be. I've said the story many, many, many times. At the time, I wasn't even a US citizen, but I knew of General Colin Powell. And I was like, well, if a Black man can be a 4-star general and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the United States, there's got to be hope for me. Because when I got in the Navy 21 years ago, I was a seaman recruit, E-1, which is the lowest rank in the military. Like they say, sir, shiitake tends to fall down. So we got to do all of the hard jobs, anything that nobody else wanted to do. But in the back of my mind, though, It's like, no, it is possible, right? Because like, like you have said, I think it's quite important. You didn't see anybody that looked like you that were successful— lawyer, doctor, or whatever the case might be. So I do believe representation does matter a lot. Do you agree, sir?

Yeah, I, I could not agree more. Uh, and you know, I, you know, it's unfortunate that, um, uh, as Americans we tend to gather with and socialize with folks that are like ourselves because we have things in common. Uh, one of the things the military does a good job of, I think, is it draws people from every walk of our society. And whether you like it or not, you're going to have to live with them, you're going to have to fight with them, you're going to have to socialize with them. And it, it It opens up, um, your world to, you know, a lot of that stuff I heard when I was growing up is not true, uh, and, and it forces you to interact with other people, um, and which I think is so valuable. One of the things I try to do is, you know, obviously I don't want to get into politics, but, but, but I'm sort of a moderate, in-the-middle kind of guy, uh, but I have friends that are far left, I have friends that are far right, and I try to talk to them all because I want to understand, I want to interact, and I'm not mad at them if we disagree. But I do— I try my best to have conversations with people who may think differently than I do. And I think you just brought up a— I mean, if I could— man, if there's one point I could get across to folks who haven't lived the same experience that you and I have lived is how important it is to have representation, uh, in whatever company you're in or whatever profession you're in. Um, and it's, you know, it's frustrating to me that things like, or acronyms like DEI have gotten such a bad rap. Don't get me wrong, you can take DEI too far, and I got it, but to me Uh, um, DEI is about equal opportunity. It's not about equal outcomes. So in other words, the objective, in my opinion— some may disagree— is, is not to build a Noah's Ark. The, the, the objective is to open up the aperture so everyone gets a chance. And, and then, and once you get an opportunity, you, you can either cut it or you can't. And so numbers shouldn't be forced for the sake of getting numbers. But it just bothers me that recently our society has created this perception that DEI and meritocracy are opposing things, and I just don't agree with that. I think things like— and maybe if we all stop calling it DEI, but But, but DEI and meritocracy can and should work hand in hand. Again, it's not about, um, giving someone something that hasn't earned it. And by the way, you know this. I know because you lived it. I don't know anyone who wants anything given to them. I know that's a perception out there, but if someone came to me and said, you know, you're, you're not the best qualified, but we need representation, so we're going to give you this job anyway, I wouldn't take it. I, I want the job based on my own ability and potential, and I don't know anybody else that feels differently. Now, there may be, but I don't know who they are. So again, the point is, you know, let me give you a quick story. My father has never seen a golf course in his life, uh, never touched a golf club. And several years ago, when, when sort of Tiger Woods was at his his peak, I went to visit him and he was watching golf and I was like, what in the world are you doing? You don't even— you don't know the difference between a green and a rough.

Yes.

And but the fact that there had been very few African Americans that sort of broke through the game of golf, uh, it did something for him. And again, this is not— this is not one race pitted against another. It's a matter of him seeing someone do something that, uh, before then he never saw before.

Wow.

So again, it's— I, I get frustrated today that we are making more out of this than it needs to be.

Yes.

And, you know, that somehow, you know, folks are trying to get things that they didn't earn, or, you know, other folks have been disenfranchised based on, you know, trying to give others opportunities. I know this can be a controversial topic for some, but I'm concerned that we don't talk about it enough. You know, we talk about it on one side, talks about one point of view, another side talks about another point of view, but we never get those points of view in the same room. We can sort of hear each other's concern.

Maybe a follow-on question I would ask, sir, is what advice would you give to today's young airmen, soldiers, or sailors, or even Silicon Valley engineer who kind of feel behind?

Yeah, again, I think it's a matter of— first of all, I think it's about hard work. I guess, as I mentioned, personally for me, it's about my faith. It's about believing in yourself and standing up, being strong. And, you know, I just— if somebody— the worst thing you can do to me is tell me I can't do something. Because then I'm going to go prove you wrong. So, you know, now, you know, there's probably folks out there of all persuasions who would, who would, you know, prefer somebody to give them something. Uh, we can't do anything about that, but, you know, I would recommend to whatever profession you're in, uh, put your head down, uh, roll your sleeves up, My father once told me that, you know, you can't guarantee that you can be the smartest person in the room, but you can guarantee that you can be the hardest working person in the room. And that's always been sort of my philosophy, that I'm going to work hard, I'm going to try to outwork everybody, and whatever happens, happens. Yeah, I can't control that. All I can control is what I do.

Well, so let's talk a little bit about influence, enlisted leadership, and character formation. Like you, I used to be enlisted and I'm so glad I went through that path, you know, being an E-1 and eventually becoming a commanding officer as a commander. And I don't have anything against those who go to the Naval Academy, Air Force Academy, and different ways to become an officer. Nothing wrong with that. But one thing you've often said, sir, is NCO, which is noncommissioned officers, shaped your leadership more than any formal course. And I think that's pretty significant. So what should officers and executives never forget about the people who are actually closest to the work.

Yeah, I agree. You know, our opponents around the world fear the US military primarily because of our enlisted force. They're the ones out there doing the fight. You know, I spent a lot of time in the Pentagon, and you know, when you're at the sort of the Pentagon, you know, folks start feeling themselves that they're at the top. And I used to tell folks in the Air Force at the Pentagon, Look, there's no airplanes taking off from here. There's no— we're not launching any satellites from here. So, you know, back up a second. It's the folks out in the field that are doing the work. And, you know, the— our enlisted force is second to none. And because we trust them, we give them a lot of responsibility. We give them a lot of flexibility to do what they need to do. And I wouldn't give away that experience of being enlisted for anything. It's just so, I think, critical to what we do. You know, one of the things that is almost hard for me to talk about, but, you know, my father had done 20 years in the Air Force— and I'm sorry, in the Army— and my entire family was military. My uncles, they all went in the military. You know, we had one lapse, actually. One of my uncles served in the Navy, but that was a— we forgave him for that. But we, uh, but, and mostly Army. In fact, I was the only Air Force, but more importantly, I was the only officer. I was the first officer. And, and, and so I remember when I finished officer's training school and I came back, landed at Dulles Airport, and my father picked me up. And, you know, back then this was before all the security, so you could literally just drive right up to the front. And when I was walking up to the car door, he got out and came around and saluted me. And I mean, and, and he said to me, don't ever forget that it's the enlisted force that makes the military go.

Yeah.

And, and, and, you know, so just because you're a lieutenant now, that, you know, you better remember where the real strength of the military is. And I've always, you know, felt that way. That, you know, and so as an officer, regardless of my position, I tended to try to spend most of my time and influence with the enlisted force.

Wow, that is really powerful. I dare maybe not to ask the question, but I know one of the medals and awards that's most meaningful to me is the Good Conduct Medal. Because as you know, sir, officers do not get it, but it reminds me exactly of where I came from. Do you Do you have a medal or an award that is most meaningful to you, sir?

No, not necessarily a medal or an award. But what's— but an experience I had that was really meaningful was, you know, I was in the Pentagon a long time. And in fact, I've been told I have a record for time at the Pentagon, but not by choice, by the way. So I actually went in the Pentagon as a, as a one-star and stayed there through four stars.

Wow.

And, and so I would go in the Pentagon, you know, every day. And, and there were— if you've been to the Pentagon on the river entrance, there's always a line of black cars there that are, you know, are DV cars that they drive DVs around during the day, take them to the White House or the Congress or wherever. And these are mostly— or many of them are retired enlisted folks. And so I used to always wave at them, you know, speak when I saw someone, and then go on about my day. But make a long story short, when I— the day I pinned on 4-star, Again, it was like any other day. I drove in in my Honda Civic and got out and I was walking up the steps and they got out of their cars. Wow. And they came up to me and they said, sir, we've been sitting here watching you walk in the Pentagon since you was a one-star. And we just want to tell you how proud we are of you.

Wow.

And the example that you set for all of us. And I was just so taken aback. About that. That meant more to me than any medal that I ever got when I was in the military.

Wow, that is quite amazing, sir. And I wonder, sometimes I joke there's got to be some type of humility school they send you guys to before you get your first star, because in my entire 21-year career in the Navy and the armed forces, I've never, never seen a single flag officer who was arrogant or puffed up. Everyone I meet is just so humble, and they've accomplished so much, but they are so down to earth, but I have seen a few senior officers like me, commander or captain, you know, Lieutenant Colonel or Colonel, who are a little bit too puffed up, but never a flag officer. Is there a reason why flag officers in the US Armed Forces are so humble, even though they've accomplished so much?

Yeah, that's a good question. I can only speak for myself. You know, I've just never— rank to me has never been the point. Um, the— to me, the point has been, you know, you get elevated to a certain grade, uh, that's an honor and it's a privilege, and you're being elevated not to serve yourself but to serve others. Uh, and so I've always approached it that way. I never came in the military thinking I had wanted to achieve a certain rank or achieve some sort of status or have some sort of privilege. I don't know, I just never— that's just not a big deal for me. And, you know, yeah, did I meet a few arrogant folks? Yeah, that happens. But by and large, no, we, you know, most folks are— they've worked hard to get where they are, and they just want to keep working hard to do the best they can.

That is so true. And one other thing you've shared, sir, is our stories of mentors who have corrected you without humiliating you. I think there's a big difference there. How do leaders hold standard without breaking trust?

Yeah, good question. I think, uh, first of all, uh, integrity, I think, is really huge. And, you know, you can't just tell folks who work for you one thing and then you act a different way. Uh, and I think your folks need to see, uh, that you're willing to do anything and more than you're asking them to do. Um, So, you know, we may talk about this a little later, but probably my favorite, I guess, leadership principle, if you will, is leadership by walking around, is, you know, getting around and talking to people face to face. Because now so much is automated and leaders can sit in their desk, you know, and lead from the— from the— by email. That just doesn't work. Just a quick example for me. Where one single mentor changed my life, uh, literally. Uh, now I'm going to ask you to use your imagination because this is going to be hard to believe.

Hmm.

But there was a time in my life back when I was 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 where I had an afro like you wouldn't believe. Now I know that's hard to believe now. And I wish I could grow one now, but I— those days are long gone. But, uh, back in those days, and I'm not sure— I'm not proud of this, but, uh, you know, we had grooming standards like every service. And back then, you know, long hair was the fashion, so you would push the envelope as much as you could, could get away with. And I was probably pushing the envelope more than I should have. And there was a technique, at least for folks who had my hair texture, to wear a stocking cap at night, pack everything down, and, and, you know, it, it was, it was, it worked pretty well at disguising your hairline. Again, I'm not proud of that. I mean, you know, in hindsight, yes, it wasn't a smart thing to do, but I was 18, 19 years old. Um, again, to cut to the chase, one day I came in I had not had a chance to sort of disguise my hair, and I was really, really worried that I was going to get in a lot of trouble. And I was sitting in an office that faced the door, and my boss hadn't come in yet. And so a Chief Master Sergeant, which is a top enlisted grade for the Air Force, went by the door, looked in, and kept going. And so I wiped my brow and said, wow, I got away with it so far, until And this was before Michael Jackson made this popular. Yeah, that's a sergeant literally moonwalked back. And he said, Airman, I have no idea what you are doing, but you are way out of standards. And he said, get up from your desk and come with me. Chief, you know, I can't, you know, he said, I don't want to hear it.

Yes.

Get up from your desk and come with me. So I got up. I couldn't even get my hat on. Uh, so I got up and I went out to the parking lot. And by the way, I don't know why every Chief Master Sergeant I've ever known had a pickup truck.

I'm not—

I don't know what that's about. But he put me in his pickup truck, took me to the barbershop, paid the barber, and said, give him a military haircut. And so I sat there in the chair and watched my hair fall on the floor. Uh, But the bigger issue was after that, he took me over to the base park and we sat down at a picnic table and he started talking to me about standards, about— look, he said, look, if you— I was young once and I get it, but yes, if you want to get out of the Air Force and grow your hair down to the ground, that's up to you. But while you're in the Air Force, you're going to, you're going to abide by the standards. Do you understand that? And I, and I said, yes, Chief. By the way, What was unique about that conversation was I didn't hear that as he's chewing me out. I heard that as this guy really cares about me and he wants me to do well.

Yes.

And then he asked me a critical question. He said, what are you going to— what do you— what is your future about? You're married. Uh, and of course, back then everybody said, I'm getting out of 4 years, you know. I'm— so I said the same thing. Well, I'm gonna get out of here for 4 years. Okay, he said, that's fine. But how many college credits do you have? I said, none. And he said, okay, we're going to fix that. And so he took me— back then we had base education offices— and he took me over there and I signed up for 2 college courses on the spot.

Wow.

And he stayed with me and mentored me and encouraged me all the way through to my bachelor's degree.

And that's amazing.

And then he helped me get into Officer's Training School. I, I changed assignments 2 or 3 times since then, but he still kept up with me. Wow. That one encounter literally changed my life. And by the way, when we got back from the bar— or from the, from the education office, of course my boss was in the office then. So, and my boss was a major, so he walked in and said, Major, you got a minute? And so I was like, oh my God, you know, he's gonna— he's gonna wrap you up. And so he closed the door and I heard them laughing in there. And so I didn't know what they were talking about, but he came outside and looked at me and winked and walked out. So he, he never told my boss about my haircut. He told my boss that he thought I was a pretty sharp guy and that we ought to— we need to mentor this guy. And again, I was shocked. By the way, this Chief Master Sergeant did not look like me.

Amazing.

But he took, he took, you know, he— and I tell people all the time, you know, because unfortunately I think over the years— and look, I love lawyers, and I, you know, you can't be successful without them.

Yes.

But I think over the years, leaders, people who are really leaders, sometimes have allowed lawyers to lead for them. And where leaders need to make judgments on, you know, on people, you know, is this a person of bad character? Or is this a person who was just like I was young and stupid? It just, it just needed some guidance. And so that one encounter changed my life. And I went home a different person. I thought about the Air Force in a different way. Yes. And I became, I went on to, you know, become Airman of the Quarter, NCO of the Year, all that stuff. And then obviously finishing my degree, going to OTS because of that one encounter.

And I believe this is you, sir, uh, probably around 16, 17 years old, I believe, high school. And with your hair, it's pretty amazing.

Yeah, that— I didn't have it. That wasn't an afro. I mean, I, I've got some pictures which I'm not going to show you, but that wasn't even close to where I was at.

That is quite amazing. So we have our first question from the audience, from Daniel Young. In general, I love that leading from the front can be automated. As a career futurist, I believe AI should handle the busy work so leaders have more time for face-to-face alignment and unamored connection. Okay, I guess it's just a comment. So let's talk a little bit about stewardship. So you did write this book about the green eyeshades 'An Examination of Financial Management During War.' And we all remember the, uh, sequestration from way back then. And during sequestration, you launched Every Dollar Counts. And I think I have a video I'm going to show everybody at the end of the podcast today. But why was it important to trust airmen at every level instead of issuing top-down cuts?

Yeah, good question. I, I've always believed, and I still believe today, that the best ideas, uh, and the best innovation comes from bottom up rather than top down, uh, and that, that, um, Every Dollar Counts campaign, uh, taught me a lot. For first of all, you know, there's a saying that the Pentagon's a place where good ideas come to die. I, I really saw that in action because during that month campaign Airmen were submitting great ideas and the folks in the Pentagon couldn't wait to say no. And so I had to implement a policy that said no one can say no. The only person to say no is me. And so we implemented a lot of their ideas and they were really great. A lot of them weren't, you know, they weren't rocket science, but they were just plain common sense ideas and money-saving ideas that, you know, that, that were just incredible. For example, I remember one person that complained that there was a contract on a base for cutting the grass and emptying the dumpsters. And over the years, no one had gone back in to update the contract So they were paying a contractor to cut grass where grass no longer existed and to empty dumpsters that were no longer there. Uh, but it's just a matter of people not paying attention.

Yes.

Um, and so there were all kinds of— now there were some that were sort of hilarious, you know, well, let's just not wear uniforms anymore and that, that would save a lot of money. Well, yeah, we're not going to do that.

Wow.

The most interesting one actually came from a two-striper. It wasn't an idea. But just to show you how, you know, when I was a two-striper, I was scared to death of a staff sergeant, much less a general. But this two-striper sent me an email personally and said, I've heard all your big talk about saving money. And he said, I will save money when you start. This is a two-striper. When I see you saving money, he— and he said, because you've got aides and you've got staff cars and you've got all this stuff. And he said, when I see you stop doing that, then I'll get serious. So I sent him a very nice— I guess I was to say very nice, probably a lot nicer than it should have been. Uh, and I said, number one, you need to be careful about your tone when talking to senior officers. I said, now number two, let me address your issues. I don't have a staff car, I don't have any of that stuff, so I don't know Who told you that? But I, you know, again, I, you know, you probably drive a nicer car to work than I do. So because there was this perception out there that senior officers get all this stuff and all these perks that just weren't, you know, just was not, just, it was just not true. But it was a fascinating exercise. But man, the amount of money we saved, the ideas that came rolling in. We had— I was skeptical that folks would take it seriously, and we had a month campaign. When we got halfway through, we had so many ideas come in that we had to set up like a war room to just have to review them all, uh, and there were thousands and thousands of ideas coming in left and right. Fascinating. And we saved a ton of money. It was incredible.

Yes, I believe the last report I read was about $35 million. Which is incredible. Wow. So what is the biggest mistake then that leaders make when resources are tight, whether in government, startup, or enterprise?

Yeah, I guess, you know, I'm a little bit biased because, you know, I've always been very frugal. I don't know why. You know, my wife would just tell you that I'm cheap, you know, which is probably true also. But I've, I've always treated government money as though it was my own money.

Yes.

And we tend to waste a lot of money because it's somebody else's money. And, you know, and so we buy things and that we really don't need to buy. I'll give you an example of one of the ideas that came in was actually from Andrews Air Force Base. So I was able to go over and talk to them personally. And what they— what they— this group of young airmen said was, we're spending a lot of money on leases for fancy cars to pick up DVs at the flight line, uh, primarily because they have leather seats and they have the— back then, everybody's got in-dash GPS now, but back then it was rare. You would you know, buy a GPS, set it up on your dash, and you had to get an expensive car to get the in-dash GPS. And so I said, you know, we're not paying for that. And I checked with the Chief of Staff and the Secretary, and they're like, yeah, you know, I'm not— I'm good with that. I don't— I mean, all I'm doing is riding from Andrews to the Pentagon. So why do I have to worry about an in-dash GPS or leather seats? So I went over to give them a coin for turning in this idea, and I said, by the way, because we were now starting to collect the amount of money we were saving, I said, oh, so tell me, uh, the difference between the fancy car and the not-so-fancy cars. What's the difference in the lease price? And they said, no, you don't understand, the not-so-fancy cars, we don't lease them, we own them.

Wow.

So you're telling me we have cars that are fully mission capable sitting on a lot, and we're leasing fancy cars because we think DVs need to have fancy cars. And they said, yeah, we're sorry to tell you, but you know, yeah. And I was like, that's, you know, we can't afford that. Now I'm just telling, there are, there are things like that going on to this day at every military installation, uh, in the world. Because we just don't think about that sort of thing day to day. Something that I found out that, uh, that was sort of an eye-opener. Now, I was— I grew up in the military as a financial manager. That was my initial specialty.

That's—

but 99.9% of the military, especially leaders as they go up the chain, are never trained on financial management or resource management. They're not, they're not trained. Um, you know, you know, uh, there's always been this sort of running concern that DOD can't get an audited, auditable financial statement. Yeah, of course they can. Nobody's ever taught military how to do that. Financial management, we don't have balance sheets and we, we don't have debits and credits. We don't. We have an appropriation that's given to us and, and we know that we can only spend a certain amount and we have to spend colors of money on what they tell us to spend it on. That's about it. Yes. So we don't train our leaders to manage money. Uh, we just don't. And I think that personally, I think that's a problem. Yes.

So thank you so much for sharing that. I see, uh, we are almost running out of time. I think you have about 15 minutes left, but I do want to talk, uh, at least a little bit about this best-selling book of yours, Dark Horse, really your journey from the horseshoe To the Pentagon. In this book, you are very candid about failure, discipline, and growth. Why was it important for you, sir, to tell the whole story and not just the highlight?

Yeah, that's a good question. One of the reasons was I had a lot of folks come up to me and say, uh, how do you become a 4-star general? And of course, my answer was You're answering the wrong question. I mean, you know, I never came in the Air Force saying I want to be a 4-star general. But so that's the wrong approach, first of all. But second of all, there was an assumption when they asked me that question that either I had some advantage— my parents were generals, I'm an academy grad, I was a fighter pilot, you know. There was something that in my life that, you know, caused me to be— to reach that level of, of grade. And I wanted people to know that that's, you know, that's not— that was not the case. And so you should not limit yourself based on where you think you are today.

Yes.

You know, you don't have to have— there's the only thing, the, the biggest thing that that hinders people from getting ahead is themselves. And so I, I thought it was important to show that I didn't have any advantages whatsoever. Now, I'm not bragging about that, I'm not complaining about that, I'm just saying that there's so many folks who put limits on themselves, uh, based on all kinds of factors that ought not be there. Uh, so that was the point, that, you know, Don't think that everyone in a leadership position got there because they had some advantage. Some may have had, many others have not.

Wow, that's quite insightful. So when young leaders, I'm especially concerned about my junior officers and some enlisted folks too listening right now, when they read your story, what do you most hope they take away from your book?

Yeah, I hope they take away— I think the messages of Dark Horse are faith, integrity, believing in yourself, and never, never, ever giving up. And so I think that's kind of what I— that's what I hope people take away from it, is that no matter where you start, that doesn't matter. It's, you know, no one can stop you but you.

Wow, that is so inspirational. Now we do have our first question from the audience. Daniel Young again, he says, General Spencer, how did you maintain internal alignment when others tried to limit your potential? As an alignment architect, I'd love to hear your take on staying coherent under pressure.

So again, I look, there is no shortage of haters out there who told me and will tell you what you can and cannot do. And I just think you have to fight through that. You know, I had a, you know, I don't want to try to preach to people, but I had a chaplain one time, we were having a conversation. And the conversation was something about, you know, I took this action and there was a few people who didn't appreciate what I had done and I felt bad about that. And, you know, said another way, you know, I wanted everybody to like me and I felt bad that a few didn't agree with what the action I had taken. And he told me two things that stuck with me. He said, first of all, respect is more important than like, so you need to understand that. Uh, and two, he said, as a Christian, he said, do you think— do you know how many people dislike Jesus? And you think that you are— so who do you think you are that everybody's going— so, you know, um, I think we just need to— we need to lead based on our own personality. You can't watch a movie or pick out an individual, or, you know, and try to lead like them. You have to lead with your own personality and your own strengths. And you just have to do the right thing and not let haters drag you down. I mean, you just, you just can't listen to the noise.

Yes. Wow, that is so powerful. Because I must admit, when I had the privilege of becoming a commanding officer, I think maybe 98% of my troops really loved me and they were behind the vision and everything, but maybe 1 or 2%, for whatever reason, they just didn't like me. Like, I remember the very first time they, uh, and I couldn't imagine this, but they would complain to me to the IG, and I was like potentially being court-martialed for doing absolutely nothing wrong. And I'm like, what in the world? And I'm like, no, when I was a seaman, that would mean absolutely nothing, but as a commander about to retire, I mean, what in the world? But, uh, anyway, I, uh, I went through it, but I just never For God, you just can't please everyone, can you?

That's correct. That's right.

Wow. Okay, so we only have about 10 minutes left, sir. So let me ask you, what do you think is the greatest lesson you have ever learned, just in general, in life, in leadership?

Um, I think probably the greatest thing I've learned is, uh, you know, and, and it— I'm, you know, the older I get, the more meaningful this is, but You only, you know, we only get to live once. I, you know, you know, and, and we all want to stay here till we're 200 years old, but that's not going to happen.

Yes.

And so you really need to think about, you know, what are you here for, uh, and, and what is your purpose in life, and what do you want to accomplish while you're here? You only got, you know, you're, you're going to get in the game once. You're not going to get a makeup game. And, and so I think that's important to, to remember as you go through life, particularly the way you treat other people, um, and the way you lead other people. Um, you're only going to be here once, uh, and make the best of it and put your best foot forward, uh, and leave it all on the field. You know, you don't— I don't want to be sitting on the porch at 90 years old thinking, I wish I had done that, or I wish I had done that. Doesn't mean I didn't make mistakes. I make mistakes all the time. But, you know, just— and what that has forced me to do, B, frankly, is have less sense of pride and more of a sense of, you know, in the big scheme of things.

Yes.

You know, if I had an argument with someone, and even though I still think I was right, I'm going to go back and apologize anyway. Because in the big scheme of things, to go through life mad at someone over some issue is, in the big, in life, it's just not that important.

That is so true. I know my wife taught me that lesson. Do you want to stay married or do you want to be right? So I want to be right for sure. Thank you so much for sharing that. What do you believe, sir, is the secret of your extraordinary success, going from airman to 4-star general and everything you've accomplished professionally. Why have you been so successful, sir?

Well, again, I don't know that there's any secrets, but, you know, I think, you know, those things that people tell you when you're young, you know, hard work, integrity, keeping focused, being honest, you know, finding mentors, you know, giving it 100% every day. I think those basic principles that we've all were taught but very seldom listened to, I think they've withstood the test of time.

And what are you learning now, sir?

That's a good question. I am learning to interact more with people that may see the world differently than I do.

Yes.

And I'm learning that people, a lot of cases, feel the way they feel or they take positions on issues the way they do based on their life lens.

Yes.

So for example, I was growing up in an inner city, uh, in D.C., and based on that, I see the world a certain way. It doesn't mean it's right or wrong, it's based on my internal experience.

Yes.

When you think about our country, whether you're in the inner city, whether you're in the Midwest, whether you're in the South, whether you're in the North, the West Coast, East Coast, we all see the world differently.

Yes.

And that doesn't make us right or wrong. It just makes us look at an issue and take a little bit something different from it, uh, than others. And so I've, I've come to be more empathetic, more sympathetic, and more understanding of someone who disagrees with me. And so I don't try to be— I don't want to be disagreeable. I just want to understand. Tell me why you see this one way and I see it another.

Yes.

And that has been so, um, enlightening for me and so rewarding for me to be able to walk away from conversations like that, which saying, you know, I don't agree with them 100%, but at least I understand now. Yeah, they're not, they're not, they're not bad people. They just have had different experiences than I have.

Wow, that is so insightful. And by the way, we just have one person who's purchased your book right now. I know that's not why you are here, sir, but that's good news because I want our people to read. Can you tell us why we should read this book, King: A Life by Jonathan Eig?

Yeah, that just happens to be a book I read recently. And, you know, when I was— interesting— when I was— things I remember about my home when I was growing up my parents, and I wish I had a chance to ask them before they passed away, but there were 3 pictures on the wall in my house. One was of Jesus, other was of John F. Kennedy, and the other was Martin Luther King. And, and so I obviously, for obvious reasons, admired him over the years, but, but heard all kinds of things about him And I thought this book did a really good job of making him human, but at the same time recognizing the significant contributions he made to our, our society. And it was, it was pretty fascinating read for me because they went back and got all the FBI records and all of them talked to people who knew him. And so I came away from that saying, you know, he was human and fallible just like I was, and he made mistakes just like all of us do. But he dedicated his life to a cause that was very important and never wavered from it. And so it was pretty insightful and both inspirational as I read through it.

That is really insightful. And I know King's Day is going to be sometime next week.

Yeah, that's right. Monday is Martin Luther King's birthday.

Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing. And I think it's so important for us to really know our history. We're not going to get into this here, but I know there's a lot of forces happening right now in our country where we try to be, to have amnesia and forget. But as a people, I don't think we can go forward unless we know exactly where we come from. And everybody makes mistakes and how we can do better. So we are quickly running out of time. So let me ask you this. If you had one and only one day to live, what would you have liked your final contribution to be?

Uh, to me, the biggest contribution I think I could make is to have my kids grow up and be, uh, productive and good citizens and, uh, of the country, and, and pass on that same thing to their kids. Yeah, I mean At the end of the day, I mean, it's not about rank or, or bank account or any of that. It's about, you know, what are you— you know, those that you had a chance to influence, um, how are they doing and what are they going to take forward? People ask me a lot, you know, what are you most proud of, of your career? And it has nothing to do with rank or positions. What I'm most proud of is people that I had working for me, and that I had the opportunity to work with. They're all thriving and doing well. And they're all senior folks in the military. Now, they continue to call me and ask me for advice. That, that's what nobody will ever see. But that, that's what, that's what I'm most proud of.

Wow, that is quite insightful. And if you had a magic wand, sir, and you could solve any problem, What is the one problem you'd like to solve first thing tomorrow morning?

Oh my goodness, there's so many. I wish for our country, I wish there was a way that we could get away from left and right, red and blue, us and them. And I wish there was a way that we could all come together and take our political jerseys off.

Yes.

And just talk to each other as Americans. Let's start at the top. Okay, we're all Americans. Do we agree with that? Yes. So then, because we tend to— I had a boss one time. In fact, his name was Speedy Martin. He was a 4-star. He used to say, big to small. In other words, let's figure out where we the big picture agreement is. Yes, because we tend to, to dive down into where we disagree first, and then we never get anywhere. Um, and so I, I, I, the only thing that keeps me up at night, and not much does, is I'm, I'm, I'm just disappointed that our country is so divided. Uh, and I, and I am praying for at some point for a leader to come along who doesn't say they're going to unite the the country, but actually doesn't. Uh, and so if I had a magic wand, I would make our country more united and more understanding of each other. And let's work together as a country rather than, you know, work against each other's, you know, party and, and, you know, that sort of thing.

Absolutely. I think I am leadership side, but as a Gen X, two events definitely affected my generation. 9/11 being one, one of them. It was horrible. But 9/12 was one of the best days of my life. How united we were as a country.

So yeah, we can do it, we can do it, but for some reason we don't want to.

And, uh, sir, we are coming toward the end. Thank you so much for your time. What can we do to give value back to you? I can— nothing.

Keep doing what you're doing. I mean, I think your podcasts are great, uh, and, uh, I, uh, commend those that watch, uh, because, you know, to me, education is a lifelong endeavor. You're never too young or too old to learn. And frankly, sometimes you learn things that you shouldn't do as well as you learn things that you should. So I just keep doing what you're doing. And if I can ever help you or anyone that's listening, you know, I'm always available.

Thank you. Thank you so much. If I can ask one last question, I want to go back to the picture of you being circa 17, 18 years old. If you could go back, sir, and give a piece of advice to this 17-year-old boy standing at the edge of this incredible career you've had in the US Air Force, what would you say to 17-year-old Larry?

Wow. I think the advice I would give is— because back then, I had no idea what I was doing or what I even wanted to do. Um, I, I think what I would tell that back then, I think I was like 16 or 17, uh, to, uh, lean on your faith and never waver. Um, um, listen to your parents' advice, uh, find mentors that can help you. But believe in yourself and don't ever give up. Wow.

All right, to end the show, sir, what is something you are feeling optimistic about?

Yeah, despite what I said about, you know, our country being divided, I am optimistic about America. You know, I still believe we're the best country on Earth. I still believe in the American people. You know, we've gone through rough spots before. You know, I was around during the civil rights movement and, you know, Martin Luther King getting assassinated, John F. Kennedy being assassinated, Robert Kennedy being assassinated, riots in the streets, hippies, all of that. And we got through it and we'll get through this. So I am optimistic about our country and certainly about our military, but we just need to hang in there and keep, and keep plowing ahead.

Well, we're going a couple of minutes over the time, sir. Thank you so much for your time and for your wisdom. So grateful about that. Very last question. What is one word that represents our shared experience in this podcast today?

One word?

Yes, sir. How do you feel about our conversation?

Oh, I would just say great. That's the way I feel about it.

Thank you. Thanks so much. What a great privilege. We definitely stand on the shoulders of giants like you. And thank you so much for your time and for being our master teacher today, sir. Thank you.

Thank you so much for having me.

All right, everybody, the legendary, the one and only, uh, 4-star General Larry O. Spencer. And, uh, thank you for those who've already purchased the book Dark Horse. Really great, great, fascinating story. I think everybody should read that. And even if you're not in the military, I think you should also read The Green Eyeshades of War. I think financial management, like the general said, is so important for all of us, especially those in leadership. So I'm gonna play a 2-minute video about the great work he did with Every Dollar Counts campaign. But I want to remind you guys, right after this, I'm going to have the privilege of speaking with the one and only Jamie Shambon. She's an Harvard-educated career catalyst. We're gonna be talking about career agility in an uncertain world. And I think this is definitely a timeless subject. And tomorrow I am speaking with Colonel Josh Hartzell, US Army retired. Combat physician, educator, speaker, and bestselling author of A Prescription for Caring in Health Care Leadership. So we're going to be talking to him tomorrow. And then on Sunday, I will be speaking to Major Chris Slininger from U.S. Army. So hopefully you guys can be there. And also tomorrow I will be back with ancient wisdom and leadership lessons from the Book of Proverbs. This is not a religious podcast, but just looking for ancient wisdom and leadership lesson from Proverbs. We're going to be doing Proverbs chapter 16 tomorrow, which is January 16th, and we're going to complete that series on the 31st. We're going to read all 31 chapters in Proverbs. Okay, thanks, thanks again for your time, and I hope to see you very shortly with Jamie Chambron from Harvard University. Thanks so much for watching. Bye for now.

Through the Every Dollar Counts campaign and the Airmen Powered by Innovation website, airmen have been finding ways to save the Air Force over $35 million annually. But as Air Force Vice Chief of Staff General Larry Spencer explains, it's about more than just saving money.

Think about the Air Force. We were born, uh, through innovation. The Wright brothers started with some bicycle equipment, and today we have F-22s and F-35s and B-52s and B-2s, B-1s, and soon to be others, F-35s, long-range strike bombers. Think about the evolution of innovation that's taken place since that happened. And that's what we do as airmen. That's what the Air Force is about. It's about innovation, about technology, in being the best Air Force on the planet, leading through innovation.

The award, conceptualized by Air Force Chief of Staff General Mark Welsh III in honor of General Spencer's commitment to innovation, is meant to annually recognize airmen who come up with creative and efficient ways to save the Air Force money. This year, the award was given to an individual winner as well as a team winner.

What I learned being part of this team is how important it is to have a diverse set of skills and have a diverse background. I mean, this was a total force win. We had GS civilians, active duty service members, there were contractors involved, so across the board we used our spectrum of Airmen with a big A to engage and make this happen. I predict it will make us a different Air Force, different in a good way. It will allow us to continue to innovate. It will allow us to continue to come up with better ways and different ways of doing things. It will create those creative juices to continue to flow. Again, we are the best Air Force on the planet, birthed through innovation, and the way we're going to stay the best Air Force on the planet is to continue birthing new ideas and new innovation.

Reporting from the Pentagon, I'm Tech Sergeant Holly Roberts Davis. Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.