Let's Talk All Things Art Sales (A conversation with Andrea Ehrhardt)

This week's going to be a little bit different because I'm going to play a interview that I got to do with Andrea from Artist Academy. Andrea is this incredible muralist and artist, just an incredibly sweet person, and I had a blast getting to chat with her. We talked about a lot of different things, including what gets people to buy your art, you know, what it looks like even for her to step outside of her comfort zone and, you know, think about selling some art that maybe she hasn't thought about selling before, and, you know, conversations around money and how artists view money, all these kinds of things. And it was a really cool conversation. So I hope you enjoy this. I'm sorry that I wasn't here last week. I've been sick. I'm still a little sick. I'm in an Airbnb for a couple days, and, you know, I thought, well, this is a good video to get out now. And then you'll probably see another video from the Airbnb, because I plan on filming a couple of them here. And if this is your first time here. Welcome to the Stop the Starving Artist podcast. My name is Lennon. I'm so glad you're here. I'm on a mission to see artists in my community make a million dollars this year, which is insane to think about. As of this video, I haven't looked at the sales because we just reset the tally, so. So I don't have a number for you, but expect that number to start popping up here in the next episode. All right, that's enough jibby jabber for me. Let's get over to my conversation with Andrea. My name is Lennon, and I run a company called Stop the Starving Artist. And the idea is that we help artists that are making sales in real life make those sales online. I'm a big believer in the fact that if you want someone to connect deeper with your art, they also need to connect with you as the artist in some way or some sort of deeper story. So, you know, I'm a big believer that you don't make art. You are the art. So that means it's an extension of you, whatever you create. Unless it's very much a specific. You're hired to do this thing, and I want. This is my vision, and I want you to create it. It's coming from a place of your own story, your own ideals, your own values. And the faster we can get somebody to connect to those values and stories and ideals, the faster they'll connect to your art and the more likely they.

Are to buy perfect Yeah, I totally agree. What's some way. So since we're talking about this subject, what's some way that an artist could share their story and their art? Like, and that's not just like, hey, look at my art. It's pretty. What's the best way, I think, online, for you to show that?

Well, I often get asked this question, and I'm a big proponent of, like, people want the how before they uncover the why. So what I mean by that is, like, everybody wants the quick. Like, give me a tip on what my content should look like, but they don't really know what they're trying to say in the first place. And so what I always work with artists on is figuring out what it is that they're actually trying to say as artists, right? And sometimes they're like, well, I don't want to say anything. I just make stuff because I like to make it right. Well, that's cool. But even within that, there's something that there's a reason, you know, maybe you haven't uncovered it yet, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. And so what I would ask someone is to look inside and say, what do I want my art to give someone? And if you're like, well, I don't know, because it just gives me something great, totally fine. The next question would be, you know, if you didn't have art, you had to strip it away. You weren't an artist. What would you want to do to change your little corner of the world? And this is a powerful question because you're kind of, again, looking inside and saying, what am I really trying to achieve here? And when we strip the art away, we're only doing it briefly. And the reason we do it is because so many of our educational systems of all these things, teach artists to talk about art in a very artsy way. And I want you to talk about it as a human being, because the more we can just get humans to connect to humans, the better Anyway. So just ask yourself that question. What is it that you want to do to change your corner of the world? What are you passionate about? What pisses you off? What gets you excited? Where do you see these things that, like, light you up or just get you revved up? And then when you start there, that becomes the stuff that you can talk about?

Okay. Yeah. So I think the first thing that I think of and what other people think of, too, and when they think, like, the things that piss me off, like, sometimes it's really hard to share that it's like, oh, if I'm too loud, it's going to make people mad. And there's even, like, even having, like, a podcast platform, there are still lots of things that I, like, want to say, but sometimes don't because. So what would you say to the artists who they want to come up and say what they want, but I guess they don't want to repel everybody or they don't want to make people mad. They don't want to have a bunch of people coming at them in the comment section on TikTok and be like, who are you to say that? Or, well, what are you doing? You're not perfect. Or, like, all the things.

Yeah. Such an interesting thing because you said it there at the end. Right. Which is, what are you doing? You're not perfect. So there's a underlying fear here that people will judge you. Right?

Yeah.

I'm just here to remind you that you're being judged no matter what. Like, so we don't get to escape that. I wish we did, you know? But we are being judged because that's what people do, you know? And the Internet feels scary, but nine times out of ten, there's nothing actually happening that we should actually be scared of. Like, some troll on the Internet is, like, over here poking at you, saying, well, blah, blah, blah. This. Like, do you know how many hate mails, Like, I get hate mail? I get comments on my stuff because I run an ad, even though in the ad I say, hey, this is free. And I am going to talk about how we can work together if you want to work together. But there's no pressure. Like, I say it out loud and people are like, oh, my gosh. You know, and it just goes and it goes and it goes. And so the thing I always tell clients is to just know that you will be judged, be okay with it. And I believe we're called to something higher. I believe we're supposed to do something more. One of the best things that I ever heard was this idea that, like, the hardest thing we do every day is really just be okay with being ourselves.

Yeah.

You know, and most problems that we have are people problems. Like, when I go to the grocery store, it's a relational problem. If I have a problem being there, it's not because I'm afraid of getting groceries and is because I'm afraid of who I'll run into or what someone's going to say to me. And is that a way that we should live our life? Like, I don't really Think so. That's just kind of how I feel about it now. To that point, there might be things that you're like, no, I don't want to talk about this because this goes against, like, a value of mine or, you know, that kind of thing. And that I totally back up. It's like, you have to discover what is the true fear here. Is it because you're like, no, no, no, I don't want to do this. This isn't me. Or is it because I'm worried about what someone will think now? If it's, I don't want to do this. This isn't me. I always say, draw the boundaries first. Before you say anything, before you put anything out there, start with, what am I not going to say? And it makes it a lot easier. Most of us just feel like, because I'm giving you some advice, you have to take all of it and run or assume these things. And I'm like, no, just start. Start with your boundary. You set the boundaries however you want them, and then we can work within those confines a lot easier. Right. Does that make sense?

Yeah, for sure. I think it's just. I think a lot of people, like my students especially, it's hard enough to get them to post online themselves. Like them just being in a photo even. And so the idea of coming on here and I. It's like I can hear them in the background. They're like, oh, no, I am not saying what I think on there. I am not opening myself up to ridicule on there. But I actually. Just to bring this up. So as you're talking, the thing that I'm thinking about is, so I create a lot of murals, right. But I love creating canvas art too, which is more of what this is about, I think. Like, selling your art that you create. Yeah, I pretty much just do commissions for businesses. But recently I had like a. Oh, an idea to do a canvas series. And I was thinking, oh, like, I've never had a. Like a real deep, like, under, like, reasoning to do a canvas series before. I was like, oh, yeah, this just looks pretty or whatever. And recently we actually lost a baby at about four months. And so I was gonna create, like, a series. I just. It's like, been bugging me in the back of my head. I just wanna create a series, like, kind of around that with, like, cute little animals on clouds and, like, things like that. And I was like, but in the back of my head, I'm like, oh, opening up about the why behind that on social media. Sounds so daunting, like, and the idea that I'm going to be using this why. As a marketing, this is like, going to be part of the marketing behind it. And I was like, oh, that just feels weird. And it's just like. So I. Do I share that. Just to be like, give an example of and maybe for people listening of, like, sharing, you know, your thing, like, whether it's hard or whatever it is, it's like, it's definitely weird, even to me. I've been on social media for a long time, and so I guess.

Well, yeah. Would you be willing to talk through that a little bit? Sure.

Yeah.

Yeah. Because I. I think just maybe hearing you process it and me kind of talk through it, the way that I talk to clients about it might give more insight into what I'm saying. Because some, like I said, it's like, sometimes it's really challenging because I'm not a guy who's like, a, B and C equals D. Right. Because A and B likely have to start with you. You're the artist. I don't get to say what you say or don't say or what you believe, you know, like, so we have to start there. So if we think about this, first of all, I'm like, really sorry that you dealt with this. My wife and I dealt with this last year. Really terribly challenging. Yeah. So I don't think we were quite as far along. Just had another friend that's dealing with this right now, where it's like, they're at 33 and a half weeks. They literally just lost, like, the baby. So, so sad. Like, super sad. Oh, so I get when there's, like, this emotion attached to it, Right. And then you go, okay, well, now I'm attaching marketing to this thing. Right. Yeah. But I would ask you first. What would you hope that someone would get aside from even, like, let's just take marketing out of it. Right? Because marketing is this term that artists have wrapped a story around, right. That says, oh, I've attached money to this. Okay, fine, let's call it that. That's fine. But let's put that away for a second and pretend that all we're trying to do is get this mural into the world. Why would you want. Or this series into the world? Why would you want to do that? What do you hope someone gets from it?

I actually, as you were talking, saying that you guys had experienced the same thing and you had a friend. Like, I have a friend right now who just experienced the same thing. Like, ours was a couple Months ago. But it's like, it's so common. And. And I think one thing first off is just to. I have this idea in my head. I really want to get it out. I have a reason for creating, and I think it could be really beautiful. And then another part is like, I think a lot of people, like, just don't talk about it, as I understand. And it could be. It could be something that people relate to. But I think the part that I'm having a hard time with in my head is like, I know by putting this out there, people are going to relate to it. And then, yeah, the money part of it just feels a little weird because I'm, like, almost playing on their emotion for them to buy this, and I'm like, oh, that just feels weird. So. But you're saying, put that aside and just do what you want.

Well, yeah, because the truth is, I'm not saying do what you want. Like, we can go deeper into this, but put it aside for now. Because what you're doing is immediately you have this desire to make this thing, and you're shutting it off before you even do it, right? To me, that's more dangerous than anything else because you're like, well, I have this idea. I think it could impact people. But now as soon as there's money involved and all this stuff, I gotta shut it down. So it's like, well, now you're robbing yourself of it first because you have two choices. You could just make it for you. And I'm a big proponent of that. If you want to just make something for you beautiful, right? That's so cool. And then the other side to that is, like, if you want people to have something, let's just call it what it is. Right? If I have something like this, what did my wife do? My wife went and she bought a ring with a certain stone, and then it was like she had a. I forget exactly what it was, but it was essentially like a something in it that was, like, supposed to be living, like, inside the stone of the ring, which was really beautiful. Right. And it was a symbol of this thing that we went through. And would I see that money being exchanged for that thing as bad? No. Like, I see that as a story that someone has lived, Right. And they want a way that they can connect, reconnect to that story in a healthy way. And I think that's beautiful. Right. I just don't see marketing and money the same way that I think a lot of artists have been taught to see it. I see Money as an exchange of energy. It's literally, if I pay you, Andrea, for something, I'm saying thank you. Right? Like, that's what it is. It's not that I'm. You're all of a sudden taking from me, because the world lives in give and take. That is a universal law for everything that, you know, we live and we die, and we, you know, we breathe in and we breathe out. It's like, money comes in, money comes out. Like, that's the way it all works. And so that's been my really helpful way to see that. Yes, if you came in and you were trying to be manipulative, but that's not your intent. You know, your intent is to say, I want to serve somebody with this idea, and here's the story that I lived. If you see value in it, here's an opportunity for you to buy it. If you don't, no problem. You see what I mean? Like, I'm just trying to break down these barriers of what I think a lot of artists have been put in. Honestly, it's a lot of programming that I think is bullshit. If I'm being real.

That's so true. As you're talking, like, I feel like it's so much clearer whenever it's not you, right? And you're like, you have all these feelings. So that's why it's so great to have a coach or even a friend or somebody, just really somebody who knows a little bit about what they're talking about, rather than just a friend who, like, just has an opinion.

Right?

But so it's good to talk to somebody like you who, like. Because as you're talking, I'm like, oh, yeah. No. Artists have literally come to me, and you're like, hey, I want to create murals. I really want to do this. But. And then it's like all this. They're like, but then I have to, like, create a website, and I'm not really very techy, and I'm like, whoa. Like, let's do that later. Like, let's just do step one now. And so you're right. Okay. You. I'm glad that we went over this, because I was like, I just need to create the paintings and then see what happens.

Yeah, create the paintings, tell the story, and then you can make a decision. It's not an all or nothing situation, just like you said. And this is where I think most creatives. I say it this way. I am a creative problem solver. If I don't have a problem, I will create one. Just so I can solve it. And it sounds like that is very much like both of our clients, like the people that we deal with, you know. And so I try to be empathetic to that while also being aware that most things in life, especially when it comes to art and even like fashion or things like that, that are more story and status and that kind of stuff, we don't see it the same way, you know, and that's beautiful. I think it's actually really cool from a perspective of a buyer, you know.

Yeah. Okay, so say we continue with this and what do you think is the best way? Now that we know the why and why we should and to get our fears out of the way, what do you think the best way? Like even just writing about it in a caption or creating a face to camera video or like what is, what's your like that you see artists do successfully.

So there is two sides to this. One is the, is the like trend side. So this is, you know, this is what's working right now. So we can talk a little bit about that. Obviously video works really well right now, but I'm also a big believer that raw, more raw video works really well right now. It's like you don't need these heavy edits, you just need to be you. So the other thing is that storytelling is a big deal. So being able to create and put together a story that makes sense. Because a lot of people tell stories in the sense of, well, I did this and then I did that, and then I did this and then I did that and there's no real story there. Right. A story is as simple as a character has a want and then they have a problem that gets in the way and then they're transformed as they solve the problem. So for you, great little story right now in terms of like what you're even going through would be as simple as like, you know, I've gone through this really challenging thing and I want to consider putting it out into the world. But the problem is like, there's a lot that's coming up emotionally. You know, I'm still maybe kind of in the emotion of this event that happened in my life. And so I'm not sure what I could do. But you know, I am seeing that it could be valuable to others. That's a story because there's a problem that you're dealing with and how you're sort of being transformed from it. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Yeah. So those two things are really the most powerful in my book. If you're going to start, like, putting videos online, I would start by just being raw in your office, in your studio, in whatever it is, and just telling a little story about where you're at, talking about things that you value, talking about things that you feel that you're going through as a human being. I'm always a big proponent of putting the art at the end. Most people want to put the art first. And so for you, it would be like, you might start the story with, I'd love to create a whole art series on this story. I would reverse it. I would say, I'm going through this story right now, and this is what's happening, because that's a human element. So many more people can relate to the human element versus the art element. When you just start with the art element, what do we do? We reach more artists that way make sense. Because the art people go, oh, yeah, I want to create a piece around this thing too. Right. So if we start with the human element, I've gone through this story, and then we end with, that's why I do this as an artist. That's why I'm thinking about making this into a piece. It's a lot easier to walk more people through that process.

Okay, I gotcha. I don't think I'm going to do that video that you suggested at this point.

No, but it's. It's an easy example because we're right here. Yeah.

I think the first part for me would just be creating the art and then maybe making a video of it. But it's good to start with in the caption or even, like in the video on. In the captions that you read. As in, I created this because this and. Or we did this.

I wouldn't even say I created this, because I would just say I would just start with the story. Right. So what's something that you've made recently that you're, like, talking about?

I mostly just paint murals for businesses, so it's not. It's really not like a. I did, like, I just finished a mural for Branson, this big one. I started off my caption with, I'm really glad to be done with this because of all the brick that was really tough to get into, but so I think it's a little different in that way, but.

Oh, but it's not. Yeah, it's not different at all. Because if you think about it, what is Branson? To me, Branson is a place where, you know, a lot a certain kind of person goes to. Right. It's like, you got all these theaters in Branson. You got all these different things. Like, if you're wanting to open this up to more potential people, which is what we're talking about, how do we get more eyeballs? Right? Well, then we say, okay, Branson is this place that, if you haven't ever experienced it before, it has this, that Jim Stafford Theater, the whatever, blah, blah, blah, country music galore. It's basically built for a lot of blue hairs. And then, like, you know, we got this, like, crazy interesting town. And that alone is going to go, oh, well, that's weird. I've never heard of this place. Or I've heard of this place, and I want to go now. You've got my attention either way. Then you lead that into. I was lucky enough to be welcomed into this town to paint a mural. Now I'm like, oh, interesting. Now I'm interested in you. But you've taken this thing that is either known or unknown, has historical ideas, story behind it, and you've brought your story into that thing.

Okay. It's a lot easier to do this when somebody that makes sense looking at it from the outside. Yeah, of course.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's why I built a whole program around it. But yes.

Yeah. If you could just follow me around and, like, weekly be like, hey, do this. Which is probably what you do with your students. Okay. So I had a couple.

Well, we're so close to it. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, it is. We are so close to it. And it's just like. It's just. I mean, like, what am I thinking at the end of painting a mural? I'm like, I'm exhausted. I'm like, I am done. I'm ready to move on to the next one. And so, like, backing up and being like, okay, wait, why did they want this completed in the first place? It's to showcase everything that Branson is. And so just to explain that, which is actually really great for SEO, because Instagram is Googleable now. And so I've been trying to put the location on all of my captions recently. Okay, let's flip the script of, like. So you had one that recently that was like, why do customers buy? So talking about, like, the buying habits of customers. So we've talked about a little bit about, like, why artists should do it. So maybe the buying habits of on the other foot.

Yeah. So I always liked Seth Godin's quote where he says, people don't buy things, they buy feelings. Right. And that's not a new Idea. But the metaphor that's used here is that if someone goes to a hardware store to buy a quarter inch drill bit to drill a hole, they're not actually buying the drill bit. They're buying the hole and they're not actually buying the hole. They're buying the shelf that they're building, and they're not actually buying the shelf they're building. They're buying the feeling that they get when all their stuff is off the floor and their significant other comes in and gives them a kiss on the cheek and says, thank you. Right? They're buying pride and accomplishment. And so when I think about art, art is usually under two categories. It's usually either a commodity, so we have things like Target kind of art, or, you know, you go into some big box store and it's just to like put on the bathroom wall. And unfortunately, I see a lot of artists treat their art as commoditized art. And it really breaks my heart. Right? But that's art without a story. There's no real reason behind it except decorative expression. So the other side of that is it's more of a luxury item. And luxury items sell based on the feeling. And so you have to ask, well, what are the feelings that you're trying to offer somebody? And another example that I use in, in terms of specifically art, if let's say you and your significant other are off in Denver or maybe even Breckenridge or something, you're like in a little ski town and you go into a little shop and there's some art from a local artist there. Are you actually buying that art if you buy the local artists art? Probably not. You're probably buying the story of you and your husband being there, hanging out, and like, you're buying the story that you're living in that moment. And this thing is a reminder of that story. And so what I always try to get people like our clients to do is say, what is the story that I want people to attach to this work? And how do we tell that story and how do we do that more often? So it's the same as just what we talked about with the Branson thing, right? If you knew that you wanted people to attach to the story of Branson, then we start there and we say, that's the mission. The mission is that we want to get people to really buy into what Branson is all about. And then we push them down that line. And we can talk about Branson as just a town. We can talk about the residents in the city we can talk about every individual theater, and we don't even get to the art for a while, but we build this story to where by the time they see the art, they're like, oh, yeah, I'm bought in because I know all of this information. I have so much more context to the work itself.

Yeah, I feel like it gives people, especially when you have the art in your home and somebody comments on it, you can. You can tell the story behind it. You can say, oh, well, this artist is interesting in this way, and she did this and that, and so this is why she created that. And I think it's just a conversation starter as well. I have a couple of things in the house that I bought in different places of the world, just like you're saying. And it's so cool just for me to look at that and remember, oh, that was from Africa, or that was from Hawaii, or that was from all the different things. And so. Okay, so what I'm getting from you is get your story. What story do you want? Story or feeling you want to have attached to the thing that you're creating and share it.

Yeah, I have a whole process around that. But the, you know, it's. Don't overthink it. That's the other part of the process is stop overthinking it and just start sharing and see what resonates with people. Because that's the secret hack to marketing anything is to just make a lot of different versions of something. I'm sure you've seen this in your professional career, that something starts to click and you're like, I don't even know why that worked. So you're able to make more of that, and then that helps get the word out more. But you just had to go start making stuff first.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I need to think of this after or even, like, before I start painting. Because right after, especially after you finish your mural. Man, I'm just so tired. Like, somebody asked me about the Branson mural the other day. They're like, hey, I saw you just finished this thing. And I was like, yeah, it was really windy. It was really hard to paint that. And they were like, like, that's like, almost not what they want to hear. They're like, no, like, say, like, talk about. I was like, oh, just. Just kidding.

Nevermind.

Yeah, it was great.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. It's like finding that. That thing that you're attaching to maybe even before and journaling on that. We do a lot of journaling in our community. We do a lot of, like, really trying to connect to that deeper story in the way that you connect, because if you're not connected to it, it's probably not going to matter anyway. You know, I want you to have fun doing this. It shouldn't be something that's a slog that sucks.

Okay, so journaling, writing things down, maybe writing down, like, the bigger picture and working inwards. Is that how we do that?

Yeah. Yeah. I love that because you can have. If you have the main story. So in your example of what is Branson, then you can look. It's kind of like how I just went down the list. It's like, well, what are all the little stories within that? And you could have individual people stories. You could have the stories of businesses. You could have the story. So let's say that my wife, for instance, she used to do a lot of art for moms that were going through postpartum depression. And because that was something she went through, and it was a very important thing for her. So her message, or her mission was, I want to remind moms that despite their imperfections, they're still a good mom. And so all of her work revolved around that idea. And so there would be these different stories of, like, a mom that was maybe having to cry it out, let their kiddo cry it out, and that was really tough. Or a mom that, you know, she'd have funny ones that, like, the mom is, like, sitting on the toilet, and the kid, like, comes to, like, ask dad where something is, and dad says, go ask your mom. And, like, it's going. The kid is, like, going through all the things just to always end up, like, with the mom, like, on the toilet, you know, just. There's so many little stories that are the human element. And I think that's where a lot of artists get tripped up, is they're just missing that the human part. They're so locked into what they've been taught in school, which is all about form and structure and the tools and the color and the. All that. And it's like, most people don't think about things that way. They think in stories, they think in moments.

Okay. Yeah, that's great. So I love to take a bunch of snapshots of the different angles of painting and, like, the. Like, through. Throughout the mural process. I'll take, like, some. It's really not that extensive, but in the end, it looks like it's a lot. But it's like, for the first, like, day that I'm there, I'll Take like three different videos. And then the second day I'll take like two, and then I'll maybe take one, and then I'll take a finishing one. And then by the end of it, even though I spend like 20 minutes on it, you put it together and it looks like a full thing. But I think to add to that, I have been wanting lately to add text over the screen because it just gets way better views. But all the time I'm like, what do I talk about? And so this is helping me figure out what to talk about. And in the terms of Branson, I'm thinking, oh, yeah, no, like, I think a lot of people down on Branson sometimes when they live around here, but people from out of town love it. And I actually really love it. I love that we have this in our backyard and that we get to go to Solar City, which is a popular attraction. And, like, it's. So I'm like, I'm going to start it off with that. So I have. I have another one in my. In my edits folder. And I'm just going to say I love that we have Branson in the back basically in our backyard, kind of to go with now that we have a kid. And it's like, yeah, okay, great. Good talk. Thank you for helping me with my video this week.

Yeah. And I'll say this as another hack that I give a lot of my clients is like, you know, you have this cool footage of you doing this mural. You can play with that. Like, you could put actual footage from Branson. You can obviously cite the source, or you maybe you took some footage or whatever. So you can alternate between that and your mural. So you're getting a little bit of, like, both worlds. You know, you can have one. That's just the thing. But I'm always a big proponent of reuse, especially if you're using B roll or something, which, if you don't know what B roll is, as you're listening, that's just like, footage that doesn't have you speaking directly to the camera. It's just making a mural, making your art. So alternating between the real life thing and the making of your art helps kind of keep them seeing you as the artist while also connecting to the human element.

Okay. Love it. I love your name, by the way, on Instagram. Stop the starving artist. Yeah, that was one of the reasons that I got into coaching in a way. Like, I was like, we need to stop the starving artist mentality that I hear so much. And. And so, yeah, I just. I Just love it. But.

Well, can I ask you, Andrea, what you think is the biggest reason that artists have that, like, when you see your. The thing that kind of frustrates you the most about the starving artist mentality, what do you think artists are doing that keeps them stuck, that they may not even realize they're doing?

So I think a lot of it for me in the beginning was I never really saw an example or many of artists that were succeeding. And I also wasn't. Didn't know how they were doing that. I was like, maybe they were born into it or maybe had they had a gallery connection or something. So I just didn't think it was attainable for me at first. And then I kind of, like, fell into it in certain ways. And so that's really why I started the podcast was I want to tell all of these stories of all these artists and all the different ways that they got into art and that you can get some takeaway from it and to learn from them or even see yourself within them. But I think a lot of it's just in the mind of, like, not thinking that it's possible for that person because of. Because you're like. Well, for me, it was because I'm in a small town in Missouri. I was like, no way. There couldn't be a. Like, that was like the story I was telling myself. And so I think everybody has, like, a story that they're clung on to of why they can't do it. Everybody's a little bit different.

Yeah, that's. So that's how I feel too, I think. And we attach stories to everything. We attach just like we talked about with marketing or money or, you know, we got a story based around everything. And that story exists, exists because it helped you in some place in your life. It kept you safe. And I think in our life, we have to learn to be able to recognize those stories and let them go. But if we can't recognize them and they're just running in the background in our subconscious, and that's so dangerous, you know. So I'm trying to bring more awareness TO that in 2026 is like all those programming and stories that we live with that we don't realize are there, that are keeping us stuck as creatives, you know, because creatives are usually the ones in the movies that are like, make look like idiots, you know, and who's the ones that are making all the money? Those people are usually the super villains. You know, it's like such an interesting thing, the way creatives and like money and all this stuff is portrayed. And so to me that's. I'm 100% with you on that. I think it's a big, big deal.

The mindset side, how did you get into this? What were some of the blocks that you had? How did you get through what you. Whatever you had to go through in order for now to create? Like, you do a lot of face to camera videos online and like you show up very confidently. What were you like in the beginning?

I mean, if you watch my first video, which ironically got like close to 200,000 views, I think. And if you remember, did you ever know of lil Nas X? Did you ever hear that artist? He's huge. But he, he did like Old Town Road, which was like a huge, like hip hop, country. He was the first one to like bring country and hip hop sort of together.

Okay.

He commented on that video. It like kind of, you know, went viral for me. This is on YouTube and I'm so monotone and I'm so like, I'm talking like this and I'm very like afraid to just be on the camera and it's so annoying to watch. But it still exists on YouTube. But you know, my story is a little weird because I started as a musician and so I was a touring drummer for 10 years, was very fortunate to play all these major festivals, have my music on music and playing and songwriting, all these different elements on like television and movies and stuff like that. And what was so weird for me is that I went out of that. We had our first kiddo, and immediately I went to Europe and I was like, I can't do this anymore. Like, I have to be. I have to be with my kids. Like, if I'm going to have a family, I have to do this. And so, so I left and immediately started working for this company while I was doing like music production where I helped people grow their YouTube channel. And the reason I did this is this guy named Tim Schmoyer who ran a company called Video Creators and he was one of the people that helped YouTube write their curriculum on how they taught their own platform. So he was very tied in with YouTube directly. We had clients like Ali Abdaal, Dr. Mike, like a lot of these bigger YouTuber names, you know. And it was such an interesting world where I learned how to tell stories for people versus, like, what does it mean for me? And I started to connect all these dots with like, oh, this is why it worked in the band and this is why it worked when we were marketing Things, And I didn't know why. It was just kind of working. And then I saw me working that with our clients. I was like, oh, this is amazing. And I just kept thinking, I want to do this for artists. I want to do this for artists. So I started doing it for musicians first. And my wife being an illustrator and us having a lot of, like, visual artist friends. They were like, lennon, this stuff is really valuable for me too. I think you need to open this up more. And I was really afraid because I'm like, I'm not a visual artist, you know? So I had a lot of imposter syndrome there. And so they just really encouraged me. And so I used my wife as a guinea pig, and she was able to get hired by Netflix Family written up in, like, bored Panda and HuffPost and all this stuff. Have her stuff go, like, super viral. And it was just because we put this, like, message together. What's the mission that she was on? You know? And I used all this stuff I was learning with the YouTubers. And I tried to say, instead of saying, how do we get views? I said, how do we first start with getting the person so tied into what they're passionate about? Because what I would see in YouTube is these people would get something that got them views, and then it would get them views, and they'd be pissed because they're like, well, now I'm known as this, and that's not what I want to be known for. And I'm like, well, why'd you do it? Well, I wanted to get views. Okay, right? But now, like, you've built this thing. So I always said, I'm going to lead heart first. Heart first. What does the person want to say? How can they say that over and over and love it? And so that's why I'm so, like, driven to help artists dig deep first before we think about views. It's like, you gotta think about what you actually want to say to the world, how you want to say it. Then we talk about the other side. And so I took that to a few other artists and got a lot of. A lot of success with that. And now, even this year, we're going to see close to half a million dollars in art sales from our community. And it's just like a really beautiful, cool thing. It just continues to grow year by year. But I'm only on year. This year will be year four of doing it alone. Like, so it's still relatively new, but I'm going big. I want next year see our people Make a million dollars and then just freaking keep. Keep crushing it.

Yeah. That's amazing. I love that. So I saw one post recently how you said you can sell your art without going viral because a lot of people are chasing those views, but you focus on more the. The selling of it. But, like, explain that a little bit.

Yeah. Well, you obviously need people in your world, right? So what I find is that if you're focusing on virality, you're really focusing on the wrong thing. You're not focusing on connection. Because what do we see that goes viral? It's like really cute kitten videos. Somebody, like, doing some crazy antic. We do see things that are very authentic that go viral, but those. Like, that's what I would love to see from my clients. And I see that with certain clients. Like, we have one set of clients who was a couple, they're called Hannah and Nemo, and they make these really beautiful, moving mosaics. And now the things they talk about are, like, slow living and upcycling materials, what it looks like to upcycle. And then they also talk about their art. So those. Those are kind of their three buckets that they're thinking about, but they're never thinking about going viral. They're thinking about what's going to get someone to connect with me and how can I connect deeper with my people. Right. And the more they do that, the more they sell. Now they freaking. Of course their socials grow as a byproduct, but I always find that when you focus on connection, you will grow. It's, like, inevitable, you know, but when people focus on big numbers, they get trapped in this place that is a lot more mentally stressful, I think a lot more dangerous for our mental health. I'd rather start with the connection first, because, you know, you're doing something that you actually enjoy. I want people doing this for a long time, you know?

Yeah, for sure. I think the main thing is when I was looking at your Instagram and just looking at your videos and all the things, and I saw a video, we kind of touched on this when I first got on the call with you of getting artists to act and not just, you know, overthink. So maybe we'll end on this subject of your best advice on how to do all the things that you suggest in here, and all the whys and all the storytelling and all the things, but just like, how to get people to, once they listen to this, take action. Because that. That is the thing that's going to make the difference.

Yeah. So I recently ran A study, and I got about a hundred artists answering a survey. And then I ran that data, and what I saw is that most artists are really confident in their work. They're confident in their value. If we put it on a scale of 1 to 10, a lot of them are like, 8, 9, 10. Right? They feel really good about it. But then when we asked, well, how much action are you taking based on that confidence? It was like a 1, 2, and a 3. And so the question we have to ask then is, why? Why aren't you taking. If you are confident, why aren't you taking action? And I think that really, there's. This may be a little stingy, but I think there's, like, a lie that we're telling ourselves. I think we are confident in our own world. If we stay isolated in our studios, if we stay isolated in our bedroom, if we do whatever, right? It's easier to be confident. And I think the reason we don't take action is because that puts that confidence at risk. And so what I want every artist to understand, and if I could yell this from the top of every mountain, is that your art does not make you more or less of a valuable human being. Your art does not make you more or less of a valuable human being. You are value and worthy of love, worthy of being loved, worthy of loving others just because you exist. And when we attach our internal worth to our external creation, we are living a very, very dangerous situation because we are going to cause ourselves a lot of pain. And so you want to talk about being able to let go of things and feel more confident in yourself. It starts there. So taking action is really about what's the one small step. And I say this to all my people, too. It's like, I don't want you to think about doing it right. I just want you to think about doing it. You know, you listen to all the shit that I talked about today. You may look at it and go, where do I start? What's the fun one? What's the one you'd have the most fun doing? Go start there. Because if you're just sitting here milling it over because you're so worried about, well, if I do it wrong, I'm just going to waste my time. That's like saying, well, I really, really want to learn to ride a bicycle, but I'm not going to do it until I know all the steps perfectly. Now, the beautiful thing about a bicycle analogy, and we all know this, those of us that ride a bicycle, is that you don't first, learn to hold your handlebars straight and keep your eyes up if that's our steps. And then we pedal. Like, we can't do those. You have to do all those together. And you have to go. And you take action together with those things, and you get, like, your grounds as you go. So action is all about understanding that you just got to do the thing that feels fun, and you got to stop putting all these expectations behind something that if you're wrong, it's going to be bad or all. It's like you're just here to learn. You're just here to grow as a human being. And I think, honestly, I think making your own business as an artist is one of the best ways to grow, because you are forced to be like, you're the only one in the way now. There's no one else, you know? And we try to put an algorithm in the way. We try to say, well, I don't have a good enough teacher. We try to say all these things. It's like, no, you're the one that has to do the action. So if I'm going to give one simple action, I would say just show up. Like, just put yourself out there and say something that's you. Like, stop worrying so much about the art in terms of, like, selling it, and just start by being yourself. Like, can you show up and just tell a little story? Can you show up and just talk about your kids? Can you just show up and show your puppy? I have a freaking chameleon here that I'm trying to show more of. You know, it's like, just learn to be more you, and people will be attracted to that.

Yeah. I saw your video with the chameleon on your head, and I was like. It actually took me a second to be like, wait, what is that on your head? I loved it, but that's a great example.

I know. She's the best.

Okay, so if people are too shy to do face to camera, because I have a couple students who I just know would be like, there is no way. Maybe even do a voiceover. Maybe even 100%.

Yeah, yeah, do a voiceover. Take footage of yourself so we see your face and then do text. You know, just let us see you. You know, like, anything where we can learn to start to do that. I'm also a big proponent of, like, every day, do a little video face to camera, just for you. Like 10 seconds, 15 seconds, and then once you're done, delete it. Don't keep it. Just delete it. It's just getting in the habit of being able to speak to a little lens, you know, and learning to think about your people versus a little lens, you know, and that, that is a skill that anybody can do. It's not, it's not limited to the extroverts. You know, a lot of our best and favorite creatives and content creators are very much introverts.

Yeah, for sure. I think we're built that way. Like just being able to stay inside of a studio all day and paint and look at a canvas and like, that's a very introverted thing. Like, I just, I think it's more of like a, a superpower that we have to just put on an extroverted mask for a little bit in order to market ourselves or just share our story. We're not even gonna say the word marketing anymore, even though this is like a business marketing podcast. But I guess just thinking of it, of it as just sharing your art.

Yeah, just sharing yourself, sharing your art. Because the big thing is if you have a word that you attach a story to something, change that word and change the story. So if marketing isn't good for you, then just call it serving. So a lot of times I'll do that with clients. Like, how are you showing up to serve somebody today? Start there.

Yeah. How are you sharing what you create with the world? How are you sharing your talents? Okay, well, thank you so much for chatting with me and I will continue to follow all of your videos on Instagram, especially like. So. But you're also on YouTube. Are you a bigger YouTuber than you are Instagrammer or.

I think I have more followers on Instagram right now, but I'm gonna go hard on YouTube this year. That's like. I think I'm at like 10k or something on YouTube. So nothing huge, but it's continuing to. To grow. And I love YouTube. I think it's so fun. So I like doing long form stuff.

Oh, really? Okay. Yeah, yeah, congrats on YouTube. I feel like YouTube is kind of tough for me to grow on it, but I keep trying. I keep uploading things, but Instagram is, is the home. But I will continue to follow you on Instagram, definitely. I love your unique videos and if anybody's listening who you need just an example of what to do, go over and check out Lennon's Instagram. You can see his face to camera videos and, and his chameleon that sits on top of his head while he does it and all the fun things. I'm just gonna do that. I'M just gonna place, like, a paintbrush or a paint, like, tube on my head, and then just start talking. And then, like. I mean, why not, like, on.

Do you know Josie Lewis?

I follow her. Yeah. But I've never interviewed her, so she's a.

Okay. Yeah, she's a friend of mine, and she does that where she'll talk into a paintbrush, you know? And I always thought that was so funny. Like, such a great little, like, hook to get people in. So.

Love it. Yeah, anything for a hook. Awesome. Okay, well, thank you so much. Follow Lennon on all the things. We'll have all your links here.

Thank you.

But. Yeah, have a great rest of your day.

Thanks, Andrea. I appreciate you letting me be here.