Empath Energy Protection: How to Stop Carrying Everyone Else's Pain | Lisa Campion

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What if the things in life that cause us the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Hey there, welcome back to Grief to Growth. I'm Brian D Smith. And if you're new here, I'm so glad you found us. The show is about making sense of life, especially when life doesn't seem to make sense. We talk about grief, loss, and the questions that keep us up at night. Who are we? Why are we here? And what's actually going on beneath the surface of our ordinary lives that most of us were never taught to see? I bring guests on and help illuminate the path no matter how dark or confusing it seems to get. Lisa Campion is what happens when a psychic kid grows up and decides the world needs way more healers and a whole lot less hiding. She's the best-selling author of The Art of Psychic Reiki, the founder of Quantum Lightwave Healing, and she spent her career training the sensitives, the skeptics, and the soul seekers who refuse to play small. She's part quantum geek, part spiritual guide, and all heart. And the work she does is for the people who spend a lifetime feeling everything everyone else is feeling, and wondering why they always come home from the grocery store exhausted. In this episode, we're going to talk about what it actually means to be an empath, not as a personality quiz buzzword, but as a real way of moving through the world. We'll get into why being wired— well, we'll get into why being wired this way can feel like a superpower one day, and a curse the next. And what changes when you finally learn to manage it instead of letting it manage you? We're also going to go deep on energy vampires— what they are, how they operate, how to recognize when someone is draining you. And the harder question most of us don't want to ask: what if I'm one? Lisa's going to walk us through grounding, boundaries, psychic protection, and the practical tools that turn sensitivity from a liability into your greatest gift. So if you've ever walked into a room and instantly known who was upset before anyone said a word, if you're the one your friends and family always come to with their pain, and you wonder why you're so tired all the time, if you've ever wondered whether your sensitivity is a problem to fix, or a gift to develop, this conversation is for you. And if you want to continue the conversation after the episode, head over to grieftogrowth.substack.com. It's grief, the number 2, growth, substack.com, and there you're going to find an article about today's discussion where you can comment and connect with me, with other listeners. So with that, let's get started and welcome Lisa Campion.

Thanks so much, Brian. Thanks for having me on your podcast.

Yeah, it's great to have you here, Lisa. So I guess your journey started like all of us as a child, but you were a particularly sensitive child, it sounds like.

Yeah, I was, and not just as an empath too, but also as a psychic. So I grew up, I was born in the '60s and I grew up just outside Boston. And I was one of those like, I see dead people kids, you know? Mm-hmm.

Okay.

So I was seeing spirits and of course Murphy's Law has it that my house was incredibly haunted, like big old giant Victorian house, super haunted. And I just saw, um, colors around people. I saw angels and shadow spirits. I used to wake up in the middle of the night and see what I called the gray people standing around my bed, and I— it took me a while to figure out they were ghosts. Um, and we would, we would chat in the middle of the night, and then they feel better, feel— they feel better and drift away, you know. And, um, so I was having really these intense psychic experiences during a time when this was not really a conversation we could have, right? We couldn't be talking about this. Like, they put you in a mental hospital, or, you know, drag you to the church and throw holy water on you for you know, the kind of experiences that I was having. And, um, and so I spent the first 20 years of my life trying to figure out what was going on, how to turn it off, you know, how to pretend to be normal in public, and just like, why was I having, you know, this experience that other people weren't having? And being an empath and a sensitive was definitely a part of that, um, psychic nature that I have, but the whole thing was, was pretty intense. Yeah.

So, um, so not just being an empath, which we'll talk about, but also this ability, this, the psychic ability. And you said seeing dead people. How did you— did you talk to anybody about this? Did you hold it to yourself?

You know, there really wasn't a way to talk about it. You know, I went— I remember going to the library when I was like 10 years old and like looking for books on it, and there was nothing. Um, my parents who were hippies and they were pretty spiritually open, but they didn't know. It wasn't really part of the common conversation. It wasn't part of the mainstream conversation. So when I was a kid, I was told I just had a good imagination.

Mm-hmm.

You know, you're imagining, you know, that's your imagination. And I was like, is it though, really? Like, I don't think it is, you know. Um, but it wasn't, it wasn't until I was in college, it was in the '80s, that the New Age, you know, that's sort of the dawn of the New Age. And then there were books, there were um, New Age bookstores, there were teachers, the conversation became sort of more public. And that's where I really got a lot of my training. And actually, when I started working as a psychic, I was only 19. Um, so, you know, I've been doing it for, for that long.

Wow.

Yeah.

So you start working as a psychic, where you work as a medium, or were you doing like psychic readings?

Yeah, more I was working— I mean, I can't— I always say I'm not a medium, but mediumship happens. Okay, you know, it does happen when it needs to happen. And I think my gift as a psychic is more kind of a soul reader, like looking at who you are on the level of your soul. Okay, that might be like who you were in your past lives, what your soul contracts are with your people, what your future holds, what your life purpose is, what you came here to do, what's— and what's blocking you from doing that. So kind of looking at that level is, is my— I think my gift as a psychic.

Okay, yeah, that makes sense. So, and so we're also going to talk about being empathic. And, you know, that's a word that's thrown around a lot lately. You know, I, people, people are saying, I'm an empath. So for people that don't know, first of all, let's talk about what an empath is.

Yeah, being an empath is different from just feeling empathy. Feeling empathy is like you notice somebody who's suffering and you're like, oh, I feel bad for that. It's like sympathy or like, oh, that looks painful. Being an empath, which is a good thing, we all need that. Being an empath is slightly different. That's when we literally absorb the energy, thoughts, feelings, experience of the people around us. So it might be that the person you're sitting next to on the bus is having a really bad day. And if you sit in close proximity, you suddenly feel their headache, their depression, hear their thoughts even. So we absorb and experience those things as if it's happening to us. So you're like, I don't know why I feel so depressed all of a sudden. I don't know why I have a headache. Like, so we're absorbing and carrying the experiences, energy, thoughts, feelings of other people. That's really different from just noticing it, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so as, as an empath and as a psychic person, you said— I think you said you start working as a psychic at the age of 19. So that was— that when you decided that you need to try to help people heal because, you know, the world— there's a lot of stuff going on.

There's a lot of stuff going on. Um, yeah, absolutely. And when I was 19, I was still in university, and, you know, you don't know anything when you're 19, right? So I started working, and I quickly learned I didn't have enough skills to actually help people. So when I finished with the university, I went back to school and became a therapist.

Oh, okay.

And for a long time, I combined psychic work with therapy. Um, and, um, and then that found that was really a, a really good combination to help people. Um, then in 1999, I learned Reiki and sort of added energy work to the mix. Um, and I had a, a big private practice for many, many years, 25 years I was, I was seeing clients. And then recently I feel like more called to, to write and teach because I love helping the people that are undergoing a spiritual awakening a sudden psychic opening, maybe you're realizing that you're an empath, um, help. I like to help them, uh, do it more easily and gracefully than I did it because I just did it school of hard knocks, you know, totally like difficult, like making every mistake in the book, figuring it all out the hard way. And so it's really beautiful for me to try and help all the people that are awakening now to their gifts, to this, to this larger world, do it more gracefully than I did it. So I really feel like my, um, mission in life is to, you know, help psychics, emergent psychics, healers, and empaths really fully step in and own their gifts. Um, because I really think the world needs all the healers it can get, and my mission in life is to really create an army of healers to go out there and save the world.

I think that is awesome. I'm fascinated that my daughter is a mental health therapist. Um, and I've interviewed a couple, only one or two, I can think of one in particular who's a mental health therapist who actually admits that they're— they have psychic ability and uses it in their work. It's kind of frowned on in the mental health field, isn't it?

For sure. Yeah. I mean, I went through like a more holistic program, um, that wasn't like a licensed program because I knew they would just yank my license from me in a minute because I touch all my clients, I have them on a Reiki table, and, you know, it's, it's not, um, standard mental health care. And, and there is like a, a sad sort of dilemma there, I think, because a lot of times people's mental health problems are worsened if you're sensitive and you're an empath and you don't know it, or if you're a psychic and you don't know it. I always say there's only a few letters difference between psychic and psychotic.

Yeah.

You know, um, and, you know, I think getting training, um, for those things can really often really help people with mental health issues.

Yeah, I feel like a lot of the medical industry only treats part of the person, whether it becomes— whether it's medical doctors or even mental health counselors who don't, you know, transpersonalize what they're calling people now that are treating the whole person, including the spirit or the soul or whatever you want to call that. And I think that's, that's the opportunity that we're missing. We've got people who are trying to do mental health work that aren't qualified, frankly. And we've got people that are, that are mental health people, but they don't treat like the soul. They don't treat, you know, the whole person. And I have so many people coming to me, and I'm just a grief coach, but they come to me and say, I've been seeing a therapist for like a while and they're not doing anything for me. They're not helping me at all.

Yeah, it's tricky. I mean, I think like, first of all, it's really good to find a good, you know, finding a good therapist, one that you really resonate with. I mean, there comes a point where we're just sort of recycling our trauma, and that's not really that helpful, right? Um, you know, we're just kind of spinning our wheels and talking about the same things over and over again. And that's where going into, like, energy work or body work or psychic work or soul level work can add into a different dimension. I think we do need to know the story, see the patterns, understand things from that sort of emotional, mental perspective. But there are other layers of our being that need attending to. And I think those big core wounds we have, we have to look at from the body, from the nervous system, from the, you know, spiritual level. Like, what happened in your past lives? What is your ancestors bringing into you? Like, your ancestral trauma, uh, bringing to you. So we got to look at it kind of from all those angles, I think, to get deeper healing.

Yeah, that's— I agree. And it's just— it's really great to see people that are, that are doing this, that are doing kind of, like I said, kind of the crossover, because I think that's where the real opportunity is being, being missed. Uh, where, like, so you'd go to a mental health therapist and they're like, they won't touch you. Like, my daughter, uh, she's like, you know, I can't hug my patients, right? You know, I, I can't touch them.

That's right. Yeah, yeah. If she wants to keep her license, that's for sure she can't, you know. And that's why I never, I never sort of went that route. I went into a very alternative, holistic, um, program because I knew, I knew I would never be a licensed mental health therapist. That's a little too far in the box for me.

Yeah. So let's talk about the empath and some of the struggles of people who are, who are empaths that they have.

Stay with us, we'll be right back.

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Yeah, it's really, really, really painful for so many people until you understand what you are, you know, until you understand what it is. Because we might feel really overwhelmed in crowds. We all empath, I think, struggle with— not all, but certainly many— with depression, anxiety, addiction. Things that we do to sort of shut down our oversensitivity, right? Our feeling so much. And it's very hard to be an empath in the world right now because the collective consciousness of humanity is so miserable and freaked out and anxious and scared. I mean, it's pretty crazy out there, right? So I think it can get to the point where you don't leave your house. You're on the couch with your cat watching Netflix, and that's all you can do. Um, it, and that can, you know, that causes a lot of problems. People get very physically ill sometimes, um, until we learn how to manage our energy. So there's sort of basic fundamental energy clearing. We need to clear ourselves. We need to, that's like releasing the energy that we pick up from other people. We need to ground, get back in the body, and we need to learn how to protect ourselves. It's the really basic, um, energy management we have. And then when we do, that's not hard to do. It's just some has to be done daily or sometimes multiple times a day. Then we can sort of engage in the world. We can move about the world again. You can go back to going to Walmart and get on an airplane and go into doing. And there's this weird catch-22 there because so many empaths are called into service work. I think that we are helpers. We're like the helpers, healers, caregivers of the world. Maybe we want to work with children, animals. You know, one of my, um, students was really called to hospice work, which is such a beautiful kind of work and really hard if you're an empath. And, um, you know, she would just come home from her shift and just like lie on the couch, and she had no energy or time for her husband, for her children. And it got to a breaking point, like, where she's like, I'm gonna have to quit doing this because I can't function, and my husband's ready to divorce me, and I can't and I'm sick and I can't keep doing this. So that's when we got really deep into how do we manage our energy? How do we set better boundaries? And then when we do that, when we know how to set boundaries and we can manage our energy, I think that's the superpower. Like, we are here to help in all the ways that we are. All the way is a beautiful calling to be working in hospice. Once she figured out how to manage her energy, she could go back to hospice work and really um, she's so gifted at it without it sort of taking a bite out of her like it was in the past.

Yeah. And it's just like, I'm thinking about, again, my daughter being in the field and how quickly people get burned out in, in some of those fields. And, you know, because I think you said a lot of them are empaths, they're dealing with people that have— they're having issues, they're picking up the energy, they don't know how to, I guess, block it or shield themselves. Or how to ground or how to, how to rid themselves of it. And, and they're frankly, they're fields where they're not treated very well. Um, so it's, it is a tough field to be in, but they do it because they want to help people. So I love what you're doing to try to, you know, equip people to be able to handle that.

Yeah, that's really what it is. And my goal is to— and I wrote a book called Energy Healing for Empaths where I have all of this information in there. And my goal is to sort of liberate the empaths to feel empowered, kind of go from feeling like victimized by the world, which is often how empaths end up feeling, to being, you know, understanding that they're the powerful healers that they are. Because if you think about it, like, you know, let's say you're a kindergarten teacher or you're working with animals or you're working with the populations, elderly people. These are often the populations that I'm drawn to.

Exactly.

And those people, you put your hands on them and you suddenly know how they feel, where their pain is, what their mood is. It's sort of like having a built-in MRI X-ray machine. It's like a diagnostic tool that we can use to help us understand what somebody else is experiencing. It's that massage therapist who knows just where to put their hands. Without you saying a thing. Yeah, yeah, they know just where your pain is. And that's such a beautiful gift. But it sort of puts us in the line of fire. You know, we're in, we're in difficult situations for us in a hospital, at a school, wherever we are. And I really love to help liberate those people and help them really step into their power.

Yeah, that's such a good point. Because You know, I— one of the things that I read kind of in the introductions, a lot of times when people are sensitive, we don't know whether it's a superpower or something we need to get rid of. Yeah, because the world will tell you there's something wrong with you.

Absolutely. Yeah, they'll tell you you're too sensitive. Every empathic child on the planet's heard like, stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about, you know, or like, you know, you're too sensitive. We've all heard that. Um, and it's really not that we're too sensitive, it's just that we don't have the tools to manage our sensitivity. Um, and then when we do, and it is quite torturous, um, until we have those tools. And then, and then it is— we can see sort of the other side where it is a beautiful gift.

Yeah, that's interesting because, you know, I was a kid, I remember here when I was a kid, you— Brian's the sensitive one, you know. I, I got, I got that a lot, and it's not said as a compliment, right?

No.

So, um, being able to, to empower people that have this, to know that there's not something wrong with you. And, and again, I, I see so many people going into these, these healing professions, they— because they want to hurt or help, because they know how other people are hurting. But then they're not— they're just not equipped, you know, to be able to stay in that long term.

I think it's really hard for men, uh, you know, it's hard for all empaths, but empathic men I think have it especially difficult because it's like even less okay to be sensitive if you're a man, especially if, you know, older generations. I'm hopeful that the younger generations are— maybe it's a little easier, you know, for them.

Yeah.

Like, in my generation, being an empathic man was really, really— it's got— must have been really hard, um, because it's just not like sort of the macho— I mean, I was growing up in the '70s, and, you know, sort of the macho man thing was the thing, right? And, um, and so I think it's— it's— women have like a little bit more leeway to be emotional, I think. And I really hope that changes because I don't think that's That's not fair, right? That's not how it really is.

Yeah, I don't think it's— I don't think it's right either. But it's interesting because I was thinking about the healing professions outside of medical doctors. They're just dominated by women, which I think unfortunately because of sexism is one of the reasons they're not treated very well. They're not paid very well. They're not— they're not valued.

Um, so unfortunate, isn't it?

It, it really is. It, it really is. So yeah, I like this, you know, again, giving people Understanding that this is not something wrong with you. This is actually an ability that you have that humanity needs.

Yeah. And empaths are generally conflict avoidant. We don't like conflict. We tend to, you know, right? So, you know, we're, we're the, the wheel that doesn't make— that doesn't squeak, right? So, you know, oftentimes we always can, you know, feel how the other person feels. Like, it's very hard for us to say no, to set boundaries. We tend to attract the energy vampires who like to walk all over us. And that might be the users, the takers, the mean bosses. We're very susceptible to that. So I think part of stepping into our power, and I think that's why we sort of put up with a lot of bad treatment. I also think they should put us in charge of the world because what we do is so people wouldn't go hungry, people wouldn't suffer, people would yet sort of basic human rights and dignities would be really focused on, um, because that's what we care about.

I— yeah, I, I couldn't agree with you more. You know, it's, it's kind of interesting to me because I look around and I'm like, how can people not understand that everybody deserves to have food? You know, that everybody deserves to have clean water?

That we could solve that problem.

Yeah, the children shouldn't have to live in— children shouldn't have to live in fear, you know?

Right.

So I think there is a huge lack of the ability to put ourselves in other people's shoes in our world.

100%. And there's kind of this polarity with empaths on one side and narcissists and energy vampires on the other side. And that's sort of a broad generalization. Of course, it's not that simple, but it's the narcissists that end up ruling the world. It is.

Absolutely.

They make the decisions, they get the positions in power, they're in politics and corporate CEOs and all the things, right? And it, and sort of by definition, they lack empathy. As a narcissist is somebody who, and I'm not saying of course everyone is like that, but I see like a general trend towards that. And so we have the people in charge of things who don't understand, can't put themselves in other people's shoes, can't do like feel that sort of natural thing that empaths do. And., of like, how would somebody else feel? How would I feel if I was in that position? And the sort of emotional intelligence that comes as sort of second nature, part of the package of being an empath. And, um, and it's just because we don't like conflict and because we, um, sort of get stamped, stomped, tromped over by the narcissistic energy vampire types, we don't end up very often in positions of power. You know, you talked about doctors. Well, you're not going to survive medical school if you're an empath. Or they're gonna just beat it out of you, you know what I mean? Like, yeah. So, yeah, unfortunately that's the way it is. Same thing for sort of those higher level positions of power. And, um, I just think it's— and of course it's not across the board. I know, you know, super powerful people who are really, really gentle-hearted and empathic.

Yeah.

But I think it is a trend.

Well, we're talking about generalities and we're also talking about extremes. I think everybody's probably a little bit of each. And you talked about situational energy vampires, which we'll to talk about also. But we're talking about the extremes and the general thing. And I've heard people go as far as to say, like, for example, there are no, uh, moral billionaires because you can't get to be a billionaire without stomping on a lot of people. Now again, that's an absolute. I don't really believe in absolutes. But I think generally speaking, those are the people who are willing to do whatever it takes and crush whoever they need to crush to get there. Whereas we're like Oh, well, how would I feel if someone did that to me, you know? And so we don't do it.

That's right. Yeah, that's it.

So in, in terms of, um, empaths, to help people who are empathetic, how can we, how can we navigate the world better and protect ourselves some, at least?

I think it's about starting on energy hygiene or energy management basics. Brian D Smith. So that means learning, and I do it as a, um, like kind of a visualization and a breathing technique, kind of like a guided meditation, um, of getting back in your body. Because empaths, as empaths, we tend to like leave our bodies, we dissociate a little bit, um, we, we just like get under stress and we kind of like leave, you know, pop out of our body. So you have to be in your body.. And that's part of being grounded. When people say they're not grounded, they're not in their body and they're not connected to the earth. So we need a grounding practice. We need to learn how to stay. And I learned that as a youngster because I was a martial artist. I was fascinated with martial arts. I think I really just wanted to be a Jedi Knight. And so I studied martial arts and it taught me how to be very embodied. So we need that. And we need then a method to clear the energy that we pick up from other people. I imagine standing under a waterfall of light and that waterfall, like standing in a shower and with some breathing, sort of deep breathing, breathing in the top of your head, breathing down your spine, releasing it out the bottoms of your feet to sort of wash away the energy we pick up from other people. And then we need to be protected with a little shielding. So you might get in your bubble of light, you might be inside a boundary, an energetic boundary that protects you from the world. So that's what I do. Like before I go into Costco or Walmart or one of those big box stores, which are really, really hard for most empaths, I sit in the car and I ground myself, I clear my energy and I put my bubble up and then I go in and I have to do it about halfway through Costco. Otherwise I get halfway through Costco and I can't remember my name or where I parked my car and I'm crying. I'm like going to cry, you know, and so energetically overwhelming and Then when I get in my car, I do it again. You know?

Yeah.

That's how I am in between. That's what I do in between clients. That's what I do before I get on the airplane. And a good tip is, like, excuse yourself to the restroom, even wash your hands. You know what? With this water, I wash away the energy that I pick up from other people. Breathe a few times, get re-in your body, reset your boundary. Like, just imagine that you're inside that bubble, and then you can go out out and about in the world. So these energy management practices are, if we do them over time, it's sort of like going to the gym. It builds more strength and better boundaries, more strength in our energy field, and then better boundaries kind of give us a leg to stand on to do the harder work, which is actually learning how to say no. Saying no is very hard for empaths because we really care. We really feel the other person. We really are like, oh, I can do that. And we need We need both. So we need the energetic boundary and then the sort of more relational boundary of learning how to say no.

Yeah, that's very helpful. And it's interesting, I'm just— I just finished reading a book actually just this morning called The Mindful Body. And this person did a ton of research into mindfulness and, and the mind-body connection stuff. And one of the things she found out is that if you're sitting with the person, that she did these experiments, that that person is mindful the other person could actually pick up on it and they perform better on tasks. And there's no materialistic explanation for why this works. It's, it's— I think it's an energy thing. So when you're talking about these grounding and shielding, um, and cleansing things, people might be going, well, there's no such thing as picking up energy from other people. It's, that's, it's— there's no mechanism for that. But there absolutely is.

Sure, there is. And, you know, as empaths and psychics and sensitives, we have like, you know, I— because I see the energy field, that's why I can see auras, right? And our auras have layers to them. And that very outside edge of your aura is a boundary layer, like the outside membrane of a cell, or like your skin, you know, it keeps everything on the inside and the world on the outside. And Empaths have a very porous energy field, so it's like a sponge. In fact, empaths are often called psychic sponges because we go into a room and we absorb all of the energy, the pain. And when— and, um, and I remember doing this when I was really little, like 2 or 3, and I knew, I knew if I did that I could like calm down my parents, right? If I absorbed all that energy, my parents were like, calm down. Um, and then they would like behave better and the family would be like a little less rocky, right? Um, and I think we learn how to do that. We, we learned that if we absorb that, we like take pain away from people, you know, emotional pain, even physical pain.

Yeah.

Um, so it's sort of a, it's sort of a, I think it's our nature of who we are, but it's like an, also an adaptive strategy of how we can survive difficult childhoods, you know. Um, and then, you know, everybody feels better when they're around you, but it takes a bite out of you. Like, there's this strong cost to that.

Yeah, well, that's, that's— yeah, so that's interesting. As you said that, I remind of a story. I can't remember the details of it, but there was a healer. It was— I know they were in Africa and they were healing all these people, but they had this giant tumor that started growing in their stomach and they looked like they were pregnant. They weren't pregnant, but It was the energy that they were absorbing, and they weren't— they didn't realize how to, how to get rid of it, right?

Yeah.

So if you're going to do that, if you're going to absorb that negative energy and make everybody else feel better, okay, great, but now you've got to find a way to rid yourself of that.

That's right. Yep.

So energy vampires, it's a term that we've heard before, and, and I know you, you even talked about situational energy vampires. So let's talk about what energy vampire is and how maybe we're— some of us are maybe energy vampires and not realize it.

Yeah. So, you know, I mean, I think we could look at it as there are just not people who are naturally giving in the world. Empaths are just givers, right? And then there's people who are sort of more naturally takers. Um, and sometimes where there's a flow, like, and if you're in a really healthy relationship, there's a flow between who's giving and taking, and it's more or less equal. And we know when we're in a relationship like that because it doesn't feel, we don't feel resentful. It doesn't feel burdensome. It just feels like there's a flow. And then sometimes there are people who are just really wired to take, and we can call them narcissists. We can call them energy vampires. There's all, you know, and there's a, there's a range there that go from sort of like, that's what you're doing today to, you know, you know, you have a personality disorder to like, you know, you're more in the psychopath sociopath. Department, right? There's a whole, whole wide range there. Um, and the, and they often, because you know, the, this polarity that, that exists, they often just are, energy vampires are attracted to empaths. It's like a little, a little dance that goes on between us. Um, and they can, they can see us as sort of a, a supply, like a battery, you know, and in the, they're in the narcissistic abuse recovery movement. They call, you know, uh, empaths the batteries because that's what, you know, that's, we're just supplying the energy for people that don't know how to do that, that don't know. And the truth is really nobody knows how to source their own energy. Nobody knows how to get energy from legit sources. So we're, we're all always stealing energy from other people all the time. That's, I think what's really true. And then some people are just more wired to that. So energy vampires. Learn how to sort of hook you, and they'll take your time, your attention, your money, you know, the gas in your car, the food in your fridge, whatever it is, is sort of— you're the supply for that. Um, and sometimes there are some that do it in a very predatory way, um, and that would be like the, the real narcissists or psychopaths. They're, they're like, I'm gonna get you, like, you look like pretty tasty, so I'm going to get you. Um, most of the time they're not, they're not doing it consciously. They're just doing it because that's what they learned or how they're wired, you know? Um, I call those, I call them victim vampires and they've just been through a lot. They've had some really horrible things happen to them in life. And then they kind of realize that their trauma sort of gives them a lot of leverage over other people. You know, like, well, I can't. Will you do it for me? Because I can't, you know. And then sometimes there are situational energy vampires, which is like, could be any of us. If you go through something really hard, you know, which you have, right? And a lot of people who are listening to your podcast have. Any one of us could be in a situation like that and just have nothing, nothing to give. And we just become really needy for real. And we need We need a lot from other people because we don't have anything, you know, to give. And that, that's— could be a loss. It could be you lose your job or you have a health diagnosis or, you know, a tornado knocks down your house or whatever it is. Like, we all can be in that situation. We all have been in that situation.

Yeah.

And hopefully, you know, we recover from that and turn things around and go back to being somebody who's able to give. Um, and I think sometimes this is where I You know, I think that's the hard conversation to have is oftentimes the biggest energy vampire in the room is an empath. So the empaths who get really, really drained and haven't learned how to set boundaries and say no and protect their energy can be so empty and so tired and burned out. And, you know, like, like the therapist or the kindergarten teacher who's got nothing left and is so drained that they now then become somebody who's an energy vampire and takes from other people. So I think the bottom line to this is we all need to learn how to manage our energy and it's on us to learn how to do that. Not, um, and there's freedom and liberation in that and power in that where we're not expecting other people to take care of us or carry the load for us. Of course, sometimes that's nice when it happens, but we, we know how to do it ourselves. We know how to replenish our energy, how to take care of ourselves, how to do self-care. How to fill our own tanks so we don't become— and we know how to set boundaries so we don't leak energy and we can restore our energy. That's how you not, not become an energy vampire.

Yeah. Well, thank you. That's really, um, fascinating to me. You know, an analogy I use all the time is that we are human— the human beings are basically rechargeable batteries.

Yeah.

And that you, you know, once you have run out of your supply you can't keep giving. And so a lot of, a lot of my clients seem to be empaths, and we do tend to, I guess, have energy drained or give it away or whatever. And so we have to find a way to, to re— you know, restore that energy. Um, and that's, that's exactly kind of what you're talking about. And so if you're around energy vampires that are draining your energy, that's going to make you run out even faster.

That's right. So there's sort of two sides of it, is we have to set tighter boundaries with the draining people in our life.

Yeah.

And it's not always easy because it's your boss or your spouse or your parent or your kid or whoever it is. But still, it's on us to learn how to say no. And we can sort of a red flag if we feel resentful. Resentment is a red flag that we're overgiving in a situation.

Yes.

So if we feel like— I always ask people to write a resentment inventory, sit down and write every single situation, relationship that you feel resent— you're feeling resentment for in your life. And that is a sign for you that you need to reset your boundary in that situation.

Yeah.

You're overgiving. You're giving more than you're getting back. And, um, so I think resentment's a really, um, important thing to pay attention to. And maybe it's that, you know, that friend who calls you and they want to talk for an hour and they're always talking about the same drama, trauma. They never take your advice. They don't really want to change. And it, you know, you can feel your battery draining while you're on the phone and then they're like, oh, oh, I just so wanted to check in with you, but I got to go. Click.

Yeah.

Um, and that person, maybe you only talk to them for 10 minutes, maybe only once a month, maybe never, you know, um, you're going to learn how to set boundaries so that, um, you're making a conscious decision on how much you're giving. Um, and really, really minding your own self. So like I've learned. That I, I never say yes when somebody, if somebody asks me, um, to do something, I never give them an answer in the moment because I'm gonna say yes and then I'll be like, why did I say I would do that? Um, and so I say, oh, can I get back to you tomorrow? Can I get back to you on Friday? And then I literally have to sit in a room alone with my calendar and be like, do I really want to do this? Why do I want to do this? So can I fit it into my, you know, I have to kind of feel it, whether it's a— whether I'm a yes or a no to it. And then I had to learn a lot of really, really nice ways to say no. Yeah, because I think as empaths, we need— and we need lots of nice, kind ways. We can't be like— it's so hard for— it feels mean to say no anyway, right?

Right.

So we're like, oh, I'd so love to help you, but I can't, or no thank you. I'm just so— I really care about your thing, but I'm so busy right now, I just can't commit. You know, we have to find those nice ways, and, um, and it's hard because we don't like conflict.

Yeah, you know, that's so, so much good stuff there because, you know, I think, um, I'm learning about, you know, I, I deal with a lot of people pleasers. I've been trying to help people who are people pleasers, and, but the thing is, how do I know if I'm a people pleaser, right? Because I think I'm just a generous person, and we're not telling people don't be generous, you know, don't be gracious, don't don't help people. But your resentment test is— I think that's really the thing that people can help people understand. If you're saying yes to something and you really wanted to say no, or you're saying yes to something and then you're resentful about it, that's when you know that, you know, you're giving away your power, your energy. And I'm just learning this at my age now. I'm learning how to say no and being able to, because I did find people were at— because people love to ask me to do stuff for free, like all the time. I would be booked 24/7, and I'm like, I have to say no sometimes. And it's, it's still hard for me to do that.

Yeah, I, I hear that too. And, you know, I just think we have to sort of find a pathway to do that and be like— you could be like, well, um, I'm happy to book an appointment with you, and then give them— give me your appointment, you know, calendar for your coaching sessions, right? Yeah. And you just sort of like close that door.

Like, yeah, I just, just a real quick story. I, my, with my podcast, it's getting more popular. So people, the, the publish, the publicists have found out that, you know, I'm available. So they keep, you know, I keep getting, and I would say yes to everybody. And then I'd have people on, I'm like, why am I talking to this person? I really did not want to have them on. And then my calendar now it's full. It says May, it's full like till December. So I'm starting to have to tell people I'm not booking any appointments right now. And that, that was really hard for me to do, but I realized I need to do that for my own mental health or I'll be booking 2 years out.

Yeah.

And then, and then when somebody I wanna have on, I can't have them.

Yeah. That's so such a great realization. And first of all, congratulations for having an awesome podcast and for having me on your awesome podcast. Um, and, and I think that's a really great example of that. And like learning, using, leaning into your discernment. So getting your really polite no ready and really looking through all the list and seeing like, who do you really resonate with? Who do you really— who are you a yes to and who are you a no to? And it's really hard to feel that when we're in people pleaser mode because you're right, we want to help everybody. But the more you're able to discern, the better it is for you and the actually better it is for them too. Because, you know, we don't really do anyone a favor when we say yes and we need to say no. Right.

Exactly.

Gross. Like, if you've ever been on the receiving end of that, like when somebody said yes to you and you knew they didn't want to because you're going to feel it because you're an empath, it feels kind of gross.

Yeah.

Kind of like, ew, like, I don't know where I am with this person now. Like, it's kind of icky. I feel like now they're mad at me or they're upset. And we're not doing anyone any favors by not being clear with our yes and no.

Yeah, exactly. And the other thing is, again, back to the energy thing. Energy is a limited resource. You only have so much. So if you're saying yes to everyone, then in my example, my little silly example is then you can't say yes to the people that you really want to say yes to, right? So you, you, someone asks you to go to a party on Saturday you really don't want to go to, and you just say yes because you feel obligated. And then someone asks you to go to a really great concert, and now you can't go because you committed to the other person.

Yeah. And that's such a typical thing that we get ourselves into as empaths. And I think the other thing I'm going to throw in here is something I call the empath trap. And that's when we don't say, like, somebody will ask you something and you say yes, because if you say no, you're going to have to deal with their hissy fit or their flip out or their freak out when they hear a no. People don't really like hearing no, especially people that we haven't said no to a lot. You know, if it's your spouse or your kids or whoever. And it's sort of like we train people how to treat us.

Yes.

And if they're used to always hearing a yes from you, they're not going to like it when they hear a no. And sometimes we're like, I don't want to deal with that person's fit, so I'm just going to say yes. And if you say— and that's bad, right? That's bad for really everybody. So we have to learn how to sort of have some resiliency for other people's feelings. So you have to learn how to say no and then like allow the other person to have their feelings. Because otherwise what happens is we feel guilty for saying no, and then we're absorbing all their, the static they're giving us from the fact that we said no. And it's like a double whammy. So we, that's the empath trap. We say yes because we don't want to deal with other, somebody else's feelings. You know, their, their negative feelings when they, or their harsh feelings when they, when we, they hear no. So we have to learn sort of some tolerance, some resilience to let that person, you know, like when your kids are 3 and You know, they have a fit and you're like, they have a tantrum and they're like, you can go to your room, you can have all your feelings. We don't take it personal, right? We don't generally absorb it. We have to learn how to, you have your feelings over there, but you can't take your feelings out on me.

Yeah.

We have to learn that with everybody so that we can say no and really lean into the conflict. Um, and, and, and understand everyone's going to survive. Eventually that person will calm down. Your no isn't going to kill them. And but we have to disconnect. It's kind of like a codependency, actually. Codependency is, uh, if you're not okay, I'm not okay. Therefore, you know, therefore I have to make you be okay because I can't tolerate it when you're not okay. Yeah, that's the trap.

Yeah. And it kind of— it also comes back to when you talked about like the boundaries things. And I've realized, and then again, it's just very personal for me, it's like, um, not everything is my problem. So I have to, I have to set boundaries, like, what if this is my problem or this is your problem? So when that, with that technique you talked about, like setting boundaries, you know, energetic boundaries and the grounding and the clearing, sometimes I just have to say, okay, I know that I don't feel really great about how I made this person feel because I told them no, but that's not my problem. That's, you know, that's, that's got— it's for them to deal with.

Absolutely. That's so smart. And also Not only is it not your problem, but it may not also be your feeling. So when we have strong feelings as empaths, the first thing we have to ask is, is this mine?

You know? Yeah.

The first time I ever noticed I was an empath, it was in the '80s. I was at university. Um, and I went to, it was like, I was a freshman. I went to my first house party and I got there and I was all excited. It was fun. And I sat next to this guy. He was like having a bad day. He's like crying into his beer. He had a big sob story. And I'm sitting next to him listening to him. Cause you know, when you're an empath, everyone that's got a problem, from a mile away comes up and talks to you. They stop you in the supermarket to tell you their whole deal, right? And so he's telling me, and all of a sudden I'm like, oh my God, I was like suicidally depressed. And I was like, I have to leave the party. I'm like, what's wrong with me? And I walked out and I just, I really think spirit turned my head. I looked through the window and I could see him crying into his beer. And I'm, and I was like, oh, I'm okay. And in that moment is when I realized it wasn't me, that it wasn't my feelings. And I was like, oh, and this was, this was in the '80s. There was really no word for empath. There was no language around this, but that's when I learned it. And I think the first thing we have to do is ask, like, if you all of a sudden are overcome with something out of the blue, an emotion or a physical thing, you ask, is that me? Is, is this what is what I'm feeling mine? And if it is, then you, you know, you can attend to yourself, but if it isn't, then you do the energy clearing protocol. To release what isn't yours. Because not only is it not your problem, but it might also not be your feeling.

Yeah, that is a really great point. And that's not something that, again, it's not really talked about much. We talk about empaths, um, you know, it's, it's, it's— and there's a difference, I guess, between empathy and sympathy, as you said at the very beginning. There's one thing about like, oh, I feel bad that they feel bad, but there's also like, okay, now I feel bad. I feel like them. I feel like I'm going through it.

Yes.

So when it comes to— we talked about energy vampires, and of course we always think someone else is the energy vampire, not me. How do I know if I'm being an energy vampire?

Well, I think that, um, you know, if you have really good friends, they'll tell you. Maybe they won't, um, but you know, do they run away when you— when they call you, when they see you coming? But I think whatever, are you leaning on other people a lot? Are you like, do you have to get on the phone and talk for an hour? Do you have to control the situation? Do you feel so depleted that you have to have this person sort of take care of you? And I think that our goal here is to learn how to refill our own tank. Like you said, the battery. We have to— we're rechargeable batteries. How do we fill the battery back up? That means, you know, finding some things in your life that refill your tanks. It's kind of fun because it's usually about play and creativity. You know, of course it might be sleep and rest and nourishing food and self-care. Yes, we have to do all of that. But a lot of times what really fills our energy tank is play. So it, you know, get— it may be playing pickleball or, you know, gardening or dancing or singing or play. You know, what do you do for fun? Um, because what we do for fun and our creative pursuits tend to be what fill our energy tanks the most.

Yeah.

And as adults in this really busy world we live in, we, we sort of poo-poo that if it's not productive, it's sort of a waste of time. But I don't think that's, that's good because those things that you do, um, even as simple as singing in the shower or dancing in your kitchen or playing with your kids, like the real fun you have, that fills your refills your energy tank. So real creative pursuits that you do refill your energy tank. So we have to collect— being out in nature really does. Yeah. Getting a little sun on your skin really does, right?

Yeah.

And we do all those things, and then we really just manage so we're not leaking energy. Like, we are careful with our boundaries, and we're refilling our energy tanks with play and fun and creativity and rest and self-care. Then I think we're good.

Yeah, you know, it goes back to something you said earlier about we're all running around just taking energy from each other. Um, but you also just gave a really good example of where we can go to get the energy from, from inexhaustible sources. And as we're talking, and we're, we're spiritual people, there's also— we can always just go to Source.

That's right.

Uh, but that's, that's the ult— it's kind of like the sun. The sun is the source of all the energy on the earth. Every, every bit of energy here comes from the sun. It just goes through different forms. So instead of us going to grab energy from each other, we could go— we could go to Source to get our energy.

100%. And that might be literally standing with your bare feet on the ground, because we also get it from the earth, you know. That's why being in nature, we absorb energy from the earth. By being in the water, going to the ocean, swimming in, you know, swimming in the lake.

Yeah.

Um, getting sun on your skin. Um, and also meditation, you know, spiritual.

Yeah, exactly.

Like our our deep spiritual practices are also an incredible source. So we actually have a lot if you think about it.

Yeah. And that's actually what I— I use the sun as the analogy. I really meant source as in our source, like God, you know, meditation. Yeah, yeah, both. So, you know, physically we have the sun that represents that, but we also have access to that, that infinite amount of energy that we can tap into instead of going to grab it from each other. And again, you know, it's really, this is really great because, you know, I have a lot of rechargeable batteries around the house. And so every time I use the analogy all the time, so I think when I'm talking to people and I think of myself, I'm a rechargeable battery, right? So if I'm feeling burnt out, I will take off in the afternoon, I'll go, I'll go watch a movie, you know, go to the theater, or it's, we were talking earlier, recording this in May, it's still cool where you are, but we're having a few sunny days here. I'll go sit on my deck and just, you know, sit in the sun for 20 minutes.

Yeah.

And that's the way I feel that recharges my battery. But you've got to— you've got to have that, I guess, gauge, right? You've got to have the gauge and figure out when it's starting to go low.

And I think like having like a, you know, write down on your fridge like 10 things you can do to refill your tank. Right. And maybe that means like you're going to play the guitar, you're going to take a nap. You're going to sit on your back. I'm going to get in my garden. You're going to sit on your porch. Like, um, I'm going to walk the dog. Like all the things we have 10 things on that list. So when you're feeling really drained, you can kind of go down that list and be like, well, what do I need to do? Um, today to sort of help, uh, help with that. And that, you know, and thank God we have those inexhaustible supplies. So we have the earth and, and, and source, like you said, God, you know. Pray, you know, meditate, do some yoga, whatever it is that helps you connect deeply with Source, because that is ultimately the never-ending supply.

Yeah, well, I, I, I really appreciate this conversation. Um, again, growing up as the sensitive one when I was a kid, and, you know, I'm also very introverted, so I remember several years ago I wrote a book called The Introvert Advantage. And my girls are both basically kind of introverts. And I remember giving the book to my daughter when she turned a certain age. I was like, here, I want you to understand that being an introvert is not a bad thing, right? The world will say, you know, what's wrong with you? Why do you like to just read, you know, as opposed to doing this? Or why, you know, why are you this way? And I think empaths are treated a lot by the world the same way. And I want people to understand being an empath is a good thing. You just— we have to learn how to manage it.

100%, and almost all empaths are also introverted. So it's really— we need a lot of alone time. And the alone time, quiet time, alone time is how we refill our tanks, right? I mean, not all— some— there are some ambiverts or extroverted empaths who really want to go be around the peoples. But, um, I think wherever you are in that spectrum, knowing that and respecting that about yourself— like, I'm also an introvert And I love like grandma hobbies, so I wanna like feed the birds and, and do jigsaw puzzles, crochet, knit, you know?

Yeah.

Sourdough bread. It's like all those, um, all those gra— thankfully they're in vogue again, which is sort of so sweet.

Yeah.

Um, but I think everybody's gonna have a really personal list of what recharges you, you know? And it's really, it's sort of sacred. It's not like optional. Yeah, it's not like, oh, that's something you do to skive off working. It's not. It's required self-care for empaths and sensitives.

Exactly.

And really, actually, everybody, I think.

But yeah, you're absolutely right. And that's another thing I have to try to convince people, because we've been taught, well, that's, that's selfish, you know, you know. And it's, it's not. It's necessary for you to continue to function in the world, especially if you go into one of these fields like we're talking about. If you go into one of the healing fields, it's, it's even more important to do these self-care things, to do the grounding, to do this, to do the shielding, uh, to do the recharging. Um, it just makes it more important, not less important.

100%. And you know, empaths in general have great emotional intelligence. They make great therapists, counselors, grief coaches. You know, I'm sure that's why you're an excellent, um, coach and why, you know, grief you're able to work in that space because that's not something everyone can do, right? It's really a tough job. And, um, you know, having great sensitivity, great empathy, great emotional intelligence, um, is what makes a great healer. So those are, um, those are— that's the superpower. That's where the gift is.

Yeah. So I think, you know, for people that, um, we talked earlier how the, you know, it's the other— it's the narcissist and the the energy vampires that seem to, quote, get ahead in terms of the way of the world. And again, even, even in the fields like, like my daughter's in mental health counseling and stuff, you know, they don't make a lot of money, right? So you've got to really get your validation from internally and understand you're doing something very important. And a lot of times, the most important work that we do— teachers— is not the most valued work.

I know, and I, I think it's really old soul stuff. So I think empaths tend to be old souls, and as our souls mature and grow and evolve, we become more sensitive, more empathic. So my theory is that sort of newbie souls are the, are the come in very narcissist, um, pattern, that sort of psychopath, sociopath, new souls. And old souls, as we sort of mellow out and get more compassionate, we get more compassion as we've lived more. And suffered, because suffering is what really teaches compassion, right? Unfortunately, then old souls are called into service work. We're not here for the power, sex, money that drives the new souls. We're here to be of service to humanity. And so to me, it's a very high, beautiful calling to sort of let go a little bit of the need and greed of the egoic self, right? Ego and move more into the higher self, the soul self, which is all about compassion, empathy, care of other people, care of the people who can't take care of themselves, children, elders, plants, all kinds of people. So I think it's very sacred and very beautiful, even though our society doesn't look at it that way always.

Yeah. Well, that's— I love being able to do what I do because I get to have these, these types of conversations. And I've spoken with so many people that have had near-death experiences, that have crossed over to the other side and had their life review and stuff. In fact, I was just listening to a guy yesterday I've had on the program. His name is Jonathan Ashford, and he was a total materialist and C-level executive and, you know, all the stuff, had all the toys, motorcycles, boats, cars. You know, and then he has this near-death experience, and he comes back and quits his job the next day and says, I'm never going to exchange my time for money again. I'm just giving everything away. And the guy's gone to the total opposite extreme. So now he's— but my point is, when people have that kind of experience, they learn that these things that some of the people are chasing, that's not what it's about. You know, they learn it's about service, it's about love, etc. But this world will beat you up if you let it. So while we're doing that, we have to protect ourselves.

Yeah, we have to protect ourselves. Good boundaries, good energy hygiene, good, you know, that— those energy fundamentals. And because really, we can't do our work unless we're doing that. We can't really, you know, exactly, stuck on your couch watching Netflix, not being, you know, sick. Yeah, you know, anxious. So you, you actually can't until you learn these things or you really struggle doing it. So it's not selfish. It's just what we need to do so we can complete our mission here. Right?

Yeah, that's, that's so great. Giving, giving people permission to take care of themselves. So, Lisa, I know you have, you've written a few books, so tell people about your books and where they can find them.

So my first book is called The Art of Psychic Reiki, and that's really a blend of psychic development and Reiki. My second book is the one we've been talking about, Energy Healing for Empaths. My third book is Awakening Your Psychic Abilities. It's a book for to wake up your psychic, and then it goes, it comes with the Psychic Awakening Journal, which is my fourth book. I'm working on my fifth book right now, inner child work. It's called Sacred Reparenting. It'll be out in December if it doesn't kill me first. Yeah, it might kill me, but I think I'll, I think I'll survive. And you can find them all anywhere. You can buy books. And you can find me at my website, LisaCampbell.com.

Well, Lisa, it's been fantastic talking to you this afternoon. Thanks for sharing what you've shared. Thanks for being who you are. And for, you know, saying, okay, the world needs more healers. I'm going to help the healers because we need people to help the healers.

Yeah, thank you, Brian. Thanks for your beautiful work in the world and your podcast. And thanks for having me on.

All right, enjoy your afternoon. Hi there, I'm really excited to tell you about my latest ebook. It's 4 Lessons That You Can Learn From a Near-Death Experience Without Going Through All the trouble of dying to learn them. I've been studying NDEs for several years now. I am completely convinced that not only are they 100% real, but that there's some very universal wisdom that we can get from the near-death experience. And I've distilled that down in this book into 4 short lessons. And I've also given you all the reasons why I believe that NDEs are absolutely real. So go to www.grieftogrowth.com/NDElessons to pick it up for free. Www.grief2growth.com/NDElessons. I hope you enjoy it.