Healing After Suicide Loss: Breaking the Silence That Keeps Survivors Stuck | Jayne Madigan EP |

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Welcome to Grief 2 Growth. I'm Brian D Smith. And if you're new here, this show is about the questions that don't have easy answers. What happens with people that we love after they're gone? Is grief a wall, or is it a door? And when life breaks us open in ways we never expected, is it possible that something extraordinary can come through? I bring guests on who have walked through the fire and come back with something worth sharing. Jane Madigan has been walking through the fire for 33 years. She's a certified neuropsychologist, a master EFT practitioner, an energy medicine specialist, and a suicide bereavement clinician. But those titles only tell you what she studied. What shaped her is what she survived. She lost her Uncle Ray on New Year's Day in 1992, then her nephew Brandon at just 24, then Brandon's best friend, then her brother. So suicide loss didn't visit Jane just once. It kept coming back. And each time she went deeper into the neuroscience, into the body, into the energy systems that hold grief long after the mind thinks it should be done. And here's something that stopped me when I learned it. The unprocessed grief from her uncle's death didn't just break her heart, it showed up in her body as a terminal lupus diagnosis. Doctors told her she wouldn't live past 50. She was a young mother of two. And that's when she went looking for tools that could reach what talk therapy couldn't, and she found them. So in our conversation, we're going to explore why suicide loss is its own category of grief, and why it lands differently, why it lingers differently, and demands a different kind of healing. We're going to talk about what actually happens inside the nervous system when we lose someone this way, and what it takes to restore safety when the body is still in shock. We talk about meaning-making, spiritual experiences, and the silence and shame that still surround this kind of loss.. So if you've lost someone to suicide, and you've wondered if the weight will ever lift, if the questions will ever quiet, if you ever feel something other than broken, this conversation is for you. And if you want to continue this conversation after the episode, head over to grief2growth.substack.com. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.substack.com. And you'll find an article about today's conversation where you can comment and connect with me and with other listeners. And with that, let's welcome Jane Madigan.

Hi Brian, thank you so much for having me here today.

Jane, it is, it is great to have you here. We, uh, this is our second chance, our second attempt at this. We had a little glitch yesterday, but we're, we're together today. Um, first of all, I want to say I'm sorry for your, your losses. I know that you've, you've had multiple losses, but it sounds like your journey with the suicide thing really began with your Uncle Ray. So tell me about your Uncle Ray.

Well, he was only 47. He was also my godfather, so he was my father figure because I was estranged from my biological father. So I was very close to him. But he was just a wonderful family man. He was happily married, had two teenage sons, um, very vivacious, always laughing, joking. Um, so it was a— it was a total shock. He had just moved. His lifelong dream was to move his family back to Florida where he grew up. So his son was in high school getting ready to graduate, so the family— he convinced the family to move, so they moved down there. And it happened within weeks of the move, so we're not sure what, you know, what broke. Yeah. Um, so that's my journey started because back— this happened in 1992, and I had never— I had heard the word, but I'd never known anyone. That was my first experience with suicide because, you know, we always think that people we know aren't going to do that.

Exactly.

Um, because of the stigma. I was raised Catholic. So, you know, the Catholic Church at the time thought it was a sin. That has since changed. So we had to go through all of that too. We didn't just have to go through a death by suicide, but the church didn't even want to bury him. And, you know, in the cemetery, you know, back then they didn't bury you in the cemetery with people that died another way. So we had to navigate all of that. So that's what happens to suicide loss survivors. It's not just a death. There's a lot of stigma and a lot of red tape. And so that was in 1992. And then my nephew passed. And so I thought I was done. I did my time. As you mentioned, I was— I couldn't— I, back in 1992, I couldn't find the help I needed for suicide because the stigma was so bad that therapists didn't want to say the word. There was grief therapy, but there was no one that specialized in suicide. So they wanted to treat it just like grief. So I tried that. I tried everything because also my family, being raised Catholic, we were told back then we were told not to say how he died. Yeah, I wanted to say how he died. I knew I had to say how he died because that doesn't define who he was. I mean, he was not someone that just made that decision in the middle of the night. I mean, I just don't think it's a decision. I think it's more of a brain disease, personally. So, um, so that's what— that was my quest. I couldn't speak to— I really couldn't talk about it. I couldn't find a therapist that wants to talk about it, so Long story short, 5 years later I was diagnosed with lupus because I started getting really physically sick because I was holding it all in. Um, and as you mentioned in the intro, I was told I wouldn't live past the— sorry, age of 50. Um, I just knew if I was going to— I wanted— I'm a more positive— I've always been a more positive person. So this was going to be my, my life, you know, my end of my life. I wanted quality over quantity because at that point I was disabled.

I—

for, for 2 years I had 2 small children, I couldn't function. So That's when my intuition kicked in and thought, okay, there's a better way. I want equality. If I only had 5 years or whatever, you know, the time would be, I want to be there for my kids. So that's when I started doing the holistic. I've always been really holistic anyway, and back then it wasn't a thing. So that's when I had to get out the encyclopedias. Didn't have the internet back then, so I dig up encyclopedias, go to the library and do my own research. So I found, you know, yoga, So I really got into that, essential oils, and, you know, anything meditation. I think it's one thing that basically saved my life, and that's one of the big things I teach people because it helps rewire neural pathways and stuff, which I didn't know at the time. So, and then I found Emotional Freedom Technique. It had come out in 1996. I'll never forget, I was in a therapist's office, and again, we weren't really talking, we were doing like a grief therapy, but she had this— she took out this blue folder out of her desk and kind of slid it across the table. And said, take this home and look at it. But okay, this is interesting. So I didn't wait till I got home. I got in the car, opened it, and it was this diaphragm with about Emotional Freedom Technique, you know, tapping on your face and your, your, your, um, meridian points. And I thought, okay, I just lost— I had a tragic loss, I have a terminal diagnosis, and you want me to tap on my face? I thought it was the craziest thing I've ever heard. So I took the folder home and filed it. Um, I kept it for some reason. Then like 3 years later, I kept hearing it. I thought, okay, it's like you're being tapped on the shoulder kind of thing. So I thought, okay, this is the message. So that's when I pulled it out, and I think that's what really saved my life, to tell you the truth. That was a huge turning point for me because, um, are you familiar with the Emotional Freedom Technique?

Right, a little bit. Yeah, yeah, a lot of people call it tapping, as you said.

Yes, no, it's tapping. And you know, um, it's become a really, you know, widespread thing, but people really don't understand what it does, I don't think. So I—

this is a—

it's one of the tools I use today with my clients because it's rewiring your subconscious, it's calming your amygdala, it shifts you from fight or flight into parasympathetic. So it's not just tapping. So if anyone's listening, I think it's just tapping. I would suggest diving deeper because that's what I thought, right? Oh, I, I didn't have a choice. I thought, okay, I'm going to try this. So then I became certified. Now I'm a master practitioner. So I teach it to my clients too. But that was my turning point. So then I thought, okay, and I healed. I'm on no medication. At all. Um, because all of the stuff that I do, you know, use it on myself first, obviously. We, um, practice what we teach, practice what we preach, I guess. But then, um, so I thought it was done, the suicide. And but you don't really get over suicide. I was still— I learned how to live with the grief and the joy at the same time, because with any loss, it's just part of you. So, and then, um, in 2024 No, I'm sorry, 2022. I got the phone call from my sister that Brandon had died by suicide. I thought— I said, Brandon who? Because, yeah, I thought I was done with suicide. And that was my 24-year-old nephew. He was also my godson, so he was like my, my son. Um, I was very close to him. So got to his house, it was true. So that's when my spiral started all over again. I remember even telling the police officer— I was so, you know, disoriented at the time— I thought, okay, this has got to be a mistake. He did not take his own life because I've already had it. I've already done a suicide.

Yeah.

But so, you know, we don't get to choose what, you know, what comes our way. So this is why, um, as I say, my message become my message. So this is what I like to teach now to people, because when you lose someone to suicide, you lose friends, you lose people because of the stigma. Um, I lost a lot of friends every— then after Brandon passed in 2022, his best friend took his life a year to the day of nephew— a year to the day of Brandon. Then my brother took his life 2 years after that. That. So I'm actually a new survivor too. Um, so again, we don't get to pick and choose, but I really don't think it's a choice. I don't think suicide is a choice. And that's what I like to talk about, um, when I can, because as survivors, that's what we— that's our— the hardest thing to get over is that our person made the decision to leave us with all of this pain. So I don't really think it's a conscious choice. I don't really You know, from all the science and all the work that I've done, that's just my belief. But there's a lot of science coming out about that if anyone wants to research that. But also, um, and that's what keeps survivors stuck, because then you feel anger, you feel abandoned. They made this choice, and society thinks they made that choice. I've had people tell me, you know, friends— I lost a friend of 30-something years when my nephew died. She said, you've got too much of this in your life. So they kind of— you kind of feel like you're contagious. Oh wow. And because when you lose someone by suicide, you don't get the phone calls, you don't get the cards, you don't get the casseroles, you get none of that. Like my sister, especially in 1992, none of that happened. I mean, they don't treat you like you lost a loved one. They treat you like— kind of feel like you've done something wrong.

Yeah, right, right.

Because, you know, we're, you know, attached to this person. So anyway, um, so long story short, but with my sister, um, in 2022, and my nephew that was her youngest son. She lives in a subdivision that has, you know, the meal trains when people, you know, have babies, deaths, whatever. She participates. She got nothing when my nephew passed. And they knew that he died by, you know, he died by suicide. And my subdivision, my neighborhood, my nephew had a landscaping service, so he did a lot of the neighbors' lawns. They have not even— this has been 4 years now— they've never even mentioned, and they know what happened. So that's what happens to suicide loss survivors. That's what people don't understand. And that's why I like to talk about suicide. I talk very openly about it because I'm not ashamed of my loved ones. I don't mean— they were sick, they had an illness. And I always often think what really helped me the most when I finally thought one day, okay, you can have two people that have cancer, they're going through the same, they're on the same exact treatments, one dies and one lives. So I kind of think it's the same thing with depression, mental illness. Some people survive and some don't. Yeah. So that's the hard part for survivors to understand, is, you know, that this person abandoned them. But I don't really— don't think that's what the case is. So a lot of research is coming out, more research is coming out about that right now that I'm— I'm not involved in the research, I'm not, I'm not making it happen, but I, I keep, um, I keep up with all of that. So that's what my, my goal in my lifetime is, for something to change. I don't know if we're going to stop people from dying of different illnesses and diseases. But I hope that suicide becomes more recognized as a disease and not a choice.

Yeah.

And not a bad word. People act like it's a bad word.

Yeah. And I think we're, we're slowly getting there. You know, I was, I was working with a client whose granddaughter passed by suicide. And first of all, the language is changing, right? We're not saying— we don't say committed suicide anymore. People are starting to pick up on that. Um, and the other thing is this family happens to be Catholic, and, you know, I was surprised and pleasantly surprised that they had a big mass for her and a service in the church and everything, because I know that was not in the Catholic Church before. Not only would they not have a mass for you, you could be buried in the Catholic cemetery, right?

That's what happened with my uncle. Yeah, yeah, all of that has changed. That has— there has been a lot of change. Um, so yeah, I've seen some change, but I was surprised that the stigma on a personal level was still there for me.

Yeah. And that then— that's— that does surprise me and really is disappointing. And I was going to ask you, but I don't think I really have to now. You know, people— people listen to my show, a lot of people are going through grief or gone through grief. And we have all different kinds of ways that we— that we transition out of this life. Cancer, as you mentioned, accidents, drug overdoses, etc. And, and it's weird how we judge each one of those deaths, right? But the one that we judge seems like more than any is the, is the, is suicide, right? And, and then it also so comes with you feel guilt because your loved one has, has decided to leave you. So you're like, I should have picked up on this, right? Other people act like it's contagious, so they act like not only does it shame your loved one, it shames you. So it, it's one of those almost invisible loss is not really recognized for you. And so that, that is why you're— what you do is so, so important.

Yeah, it's hard, hard for survivors because I also have, um, two family members that are attempt survivors that I basically helped. Um, you know, they're, they're well now, so I do know that not everyone dies per se. And that's why I think the confusions around suicide, because they're like, well, you know, what is some one person, you know, about the brain disease theory? Well, come, some people survive and some don't. Back to the cancer thing, back to any, any illness. See, that is the hardest part, is that we are isolated, um, and we don't feel like we belong anywhere. Um, I have a lot of clients— me, I feel like I do because I have worked very hard to get rid of stigma. I've— for 34 years now. Um, but I had to relive it again back in 2022, and I was really so surprised that not, not a lot had changed as me with a newly dealing, um, you know, with a new loss of suicide. Because it's— again, I didn't have friends calling me, asking me how I was doing. Um, you don't— again, you don't get the cards, you don't get the casseroles. It's kind of like, um, you feel ashamed for some reason. And I don't feel ashamed of my loved ones, because even my nephew Brandon, he was 24. If you were to meet him, he was actually a lot like my uncle. He had never met my uncle because my uncle passed before he was born. So I used to always tell Brandon, you remind me so much of Uncle Ray never drowned. Um, again, very, um, happy-go-lucky, always joking. It's like a Robin Williams type thing. I think they mask it.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's the confusing part for people when they lose their loved one. They'll say, well, they were so happy, you know, they did this, that. But we don't know what they had internalized all those years.

Yeah. And the thing is, you know, and I, I've talked to some people who are suicide survivors, and I've actually talked to someone who was, uh, someone who attempted suicide and, and survived it. And, you know, we try to understand and judge people based upon the way our brains work. And so we ask ourselves these questions, well, why would they do that? And some of the things I've come to believe is like, I think a lot of times people think— because what people will say, well, it's a selfish act or it's a weak act, and it's not. It's, it's neither one of those things. They've, they've convinced themselves in many cases that the world would be better off without them. So they really feel like it's an act of like, they'll be better off without me, which doesn't make sense from, you know, our minds. But I think that's what some people feel.

Absolutely. Yeah, because I've done a lot of research, because when I lost my uncle, that was on a mission to find every attempt survivor I could find to find out, what were you thinking? There's a lot of books about it. Um, and they all have told me they didn't want to die. They want the pain to stop. And many of them said it's like an out-of-body experience. Yeah, they didn't even realize they were doing it. Um, until a dog barked or a phone rang. And that's why they survived, because they kind of— they were basically in a trance. That's how they describe it. You basically go offline. There's a book out, um, Dying to Be Free, uh, Kurt Cobain, musician. This is his cousin, she's a psychiatric nurse, she wrote this book. So if anyone wants to pick up that book, it's very, um, informative because she comes from a psychiatric nurse perspective. So she was basically She wrote the book not just— not because Kurt passed by suicide, but also to explain to people what she had gone through. Um, things just happened in her life. She was stressed about something, and so one night she goes home and all she remembers was the phone ringing and she had a gun in her hand. So that phone wouldn't have rang, she would have taken her life. But of course, when it shocked her out of it, yeah, um, she never tried again. So that's why I do think your brain goes offline, and she describes it in her book. Um, as like a brain attack. Like right now I'm sitting here, I'm talking to you, I could have a heart attack, I could die. Yeah, right here I could just die. And you think, oh my God, what happened to her? And she describes the same thing, that there you're just plugging along in life and then you just go offline. Um, and that's why again some survive and some don't, because there's an intervention of some sort, like a phone, a dog bark. I've had— I've heard many stories. Another young girl that I have worked with, she's She was 18 at the time, beautiful blonde, popular cheerleader, class president. From the outside, she had everything you could imagine. So when she was telling her friends how she felt, they just said, why are you talking like that? Look at you. So they kind of pushed back. And so she, you know, internalized it. And she remembers going home because she had no one to talk to at this point, because when she tried talking, even her parents dismissed her, like, what are you talking about? You're just having a bad day. So she went home one day. Got her father's firearm, and all she remembers is hearing a big noise, obviously the gun, and her first thought was, oh, thank God I'm still alive. Again, she doesn't even remember getting the gun. So, so many of those stories out there where she was kind of like in this trance, it's like a blackout type thing is how they describe it.

Yeah.

And she, um, she's now paralyzed because she thought she was going to, you know, shoot it through her heart, it hit her spinal cord. But she is the happiest person you'll ever meet because she's got the second lease on life. And it changed her. It changed her. She's in a wheelchair, but she just got married. She's living a full life. So there is a lot of success stories too. So that's why I like to teach people about suicide. It's not all tragedy. Some people do get a second lease on life and they are able to make some changes.

Yeah, well, I think this is really important to help people understand because we tend to judge what we don't understand. And so we, we judge people who have attempted suicide or people who have completed suicide because we can't put ourselves in that mindset. So at least having somewhat of an understanding— and when I spoke with, her name is Rachel Powell, because she was on my podcast, and her husband had died by suicide, and she had attempted suicide. So she was explaining to me like the thoughts, and it's, it's like You mentioned brain attacks. She's like, it's like these thoughts just keep coming to you. And she's like, well, you have to, you have to fight them. But I think this can also help for the survivors that say, I should have been able to stop them, to understand that you can't get inside someone's head, you know, you don't know what they're thinking and you can't change their thoughts. So I was talking to her about like suicide prevention. I'm like, you know, tell me about that because I was wondering, she was telling me It's really kind of giving people the tools, I guess, to fight it themselves because we can't really do it for them.

Stay with us, we'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief— most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper, thoughts I don't I always get to on the podcast, essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

Yeah, but also with survivors, though, that word prevention, many survivors don't like that because then that's what gives us, you know, like American Suicide, you know, Prevention Foundation and stuff. They do great work, but it's that word prevention that really doesn't sit well with many survivors because that makes them think they could have prevented it.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Yes, and that's what I was talking to her about. It kind of puts the responsibility on, on us outside to prevent someone else from taking an action, which— and I don't want to say we should give up because we should not. We should try to help understand and, and give people tools to fight it, but also not to take that responsibility, right?

So yeah, that, you know, some of those, you know, trigger words are not helpful. But, um, I do think we— I mean, I keep fighting and I keep talking. That's why I keep talking about it, right? If someone's listening to this conversation, they're having some thoughts, they will go get the help they need. And know that, you know, it's not a shame. It's not shameful to feel that way. And I think that's the biggest thing that keeps people from getting help because they're shut down. Like the young woman I just talked, talked about is that people think, oh, you're having a bad day. And I asked her, and I've asked many loss or attempt survivors, what was one thing that may have helped them? They said if somebody would have just listened and not give unsolicited advice. Hmm. So that because it made her feel like something was wrong with her. So, you know, just— that's why I tell people, if someone comes to you and says, hey, I'm having these thoughts, just say, well, tell me about it. Yeah. Because usually if they talk it out, um, without that unsolicited advice, they sometimes are able to get the help they need. I'm not saying, you know, just let them go home if you think they're critical, obviously, right? Um, but they just want to be heard.

Yeah.

As my nephew had told his family he was going to do it.

Yeah. And, and so there is, there is the unsolicited advice, but there's also the dismissal. Like, right, you know, you're not serious. This would, you know, this would never happen. And, and I've unfortunately talked to a lot of people that said this, this person did talk about this, but we never— they were a beautiful person, they had everything to live for, so therefore you can't be depressed and this would never happen to you. And again, we can't, we can't tell from the outside. I think Robin Williams is a great example that everybody was like, right, he's such a happy guy, but you know, it doesn't always present the same way.

And look at Twitch. Yeah, yeah, the DJ from The Ellen Show, he actually passed a couple weeks after my nephew.

Oh wow.

Yeah, so I thought, I mean, look at him. Yeah, on the outside it looks perfect, so we never know what's going on inside of this. But I also have worked with people that it just happens really fast too. Some people describe it as having the pain for a long time, and some say it just kind of happened. Um, so that's, I think, just like with cancer. Some people have had cancer for a long time, and some people get it and die So I do think that we just need to look at it as the disease is what my hope is. And that if you do have these feelings, you know, talk about it, find someone that will listen. And so I'm doing a lot of work in high schools and stuff now too, talking to the kids there, teaching them if a friend, you know, comes to you and says, hey, don't say, oh my God, what's wrong with you? Don't talk like that. Just say, oh, okay, let's talk about it. So just, you know, you don't have to judge it. You don't, you don't have to agree with what they're saying either. Sometimes you just have to hold space. Yeah, and just let them talk it out. And then of course, if you think they are critical, you know, go, you know, get a, you know, an adult or student, you know, like at the school, a counselor or something involved. I'm not saying just let them, you know, get in a car and drive away per se, because you have to kind of— but it's not your responsibility to save them either, I don't think. Um, because that's what the burden of survivors is, is we didn't save them a lot.

Yes, the, the burden of, uh, and you, you named it earlier, it's the burden of we didn't save them. The thing of like, wasn't I good enough to keep them here? Didn't they, didn't they love me enough to stay for me? You know, those types of thoughts which lead to, lead to guilt, feelings of inadequacy, um, and that really complicates being able to deal with your own grief, which is hard enough when you're dealing with, without those complicating factors, right?

Now the what I could have, should have, and also the why is— the why is what really haunts.

Yeah, the why. Why? Yeah.

And especially if no note is left. None of mine left notes. So sometimes the notes are good, sometimes they're not. So I usually teach people is we just have to— they were sick. We're not going to ever know why. Just like if someone gets cancer, um, how do they get cancer? Yeah, yeah, we don't focus on that. We just know that they got cancer. They may have, you know, things in their life could have contributed to it, but who knows? We don't know that because again I have people in my family that have smoked for, you know, 40 years and they're alive. So I just, I think the judgment, um, on all diseases, especially suicide, I think if we just kind of erase the judgment and just know that this person is no longer here and celebrate them for how they lived, is what I like to do. Um, talk about the things they, they contribute to it, not, you know, what they kind of took away from people. Um, they were just sick. Yeah.

As someone who works with people who have passed in all different kinds of ways, I could say the questions of why come up almost every way, any way people die, whether it's cancer, car accident, you know, drugs, whatever. And even guilt comes up in all different kinds of things. It's a really irrational thing that we go through, we put ourselves through. But it comes particularly with suicide loss, because we have this idea that it could have been prevented, that it should have been prevented. And we don't, we don't attribute that to other things usually, right? But it just becomes so much more heightened with, with suicide. And so the thing about grief is, and, and you, you talk about your, your lupus diagnosis, which you believe was because of your, your grief. And we talk about trauma, the body remembers trauma, the grief gets stuck in the body and stuff like that. And this is a literal thing with you where it's like it got stuck and it caused you know, disease. So tell me how you said you kind of figured out, you started doing some things like, this is the way I can process that, because that's— after doing this for so many years, I've realized that grief has to be processed, it has to be metabolized, it has to be worked through. Otherwise it gets stuck in our body, can cause different things. So how did you start to work through that, getting that out?

Again, by doing yoga, meditation, all of that. I, I didn't know the science around it now like I do, because I have since, you know studied it, whatever, um, because our body is made to heal. Everything on our body has a purpose, like our eyes. We have hundreds of meridians in our eyes, so just rolling your eyes, um, rewires neural pathways. So every— so I teach people, and that's what I figured out again, it's like with my encyclopedias way back then, that, you know, everything on the body is made to heal part of you. Like, I think what's going on with suicide back then, what I finally figured out when I started studying all of this, is Suicide is so triggering for people because, um, in our subconscious we have like 60,000 to 70,000 thoughts a day, triggers we think about, and it comes back from our childhood programming. A lot of it is our formative years, childhood. So when we come into this world, um, most people are raised that, you know, old people die. Remember as a child, you know, we all thought, okay, old people die, right? So if one of our friends was in a car accident at a young age, that was kind of like tragic. So we are taught the way people die. We are not taught that people die by suicide. We are taught It's like it's a sin, it's a lot of religious stuff. So that's what's in a lot of our subconscious, and that's what really helped me the most when I figured that out through my research. I didn't figure it out, I studied other scientists and stuff, um, and when I started using the tools like EFT to rewire those, to reprogram myself— and again, my parents did not harm me, um, it's just with their talk. So we have all this generational programming in our subconscious, and that's who makes us who we are. So when you start You know, figuring out how to do that. That's what EFT does. It rewires those neural pathways. So I've come to understand that it's just a part of, you know, it's part of life. It's how people die. So I think if we could get rid of the word suicide, because suicide is a trigger for most of us because, you know, it's in the Bibles and it's in different places that it's just, you know, it's a sin. And it's, you know, because it's, you know, the word commit, we have since, you know, dismissed that for some people, but that just means they did something wrong. And I don't think my loved ones did anything wrong.

They live.

Lived and they died, and we're here to die. So that's what I like to teach people, is to kind of, you know, that's what's, you know, why you're thinking that. It's not because, um, they did something wrong or you're not grieving properly. We have to dismiss that, that, um, that stigma for it. Yeah. But yeah, so I started doing, like I said, yoga. I started changing the way I eat, how I talk, um, I started, you know, focusing on the positive because we also have what's called the reticular activating system as our brain filter. So we're, we are basically humans, we, because of cavemen, we are predisposed to negative thoughts because back then they had to be always on alert for survival. So we all have that. We think it's like 49% negative thoughts every single day. Unless you change that, because we can change that too. So I started learning about the reticular activating system and that what I focus on expands. So if I kept focusing on, you know, the stigma, the crime, you know, they did it themselves, I wasn't going to heal. So by shifting that, um, it's easier. Um, it takes work, but it's fairly easy to do. I mean, I know all this sounds technical. Some people— and people, people come to me, they're like, this is hard. But I teach them very, you know, simple tools and how to do that. So when you start working on those parts of our bodies, um, you'll be surprised how you can come out the other end of this and anything in life. So again, um, death is hard, like you're saying. You work with all types of death. So death is a— death is a part of life. So we can start rewiring our subconscious and our training that suicide is a choice. You know, suicide is something, you know, they wanted to do. I mean, all of that, just like a car accident. You know, they wanted to get in the car, they wanted to drive. But we don't say, oh my God, you know, they shouldn't have been driving here, there, whatever. We just know because again, in our wiring, we expect people to die by car accidents. Makes sense?

Yeah, absolutely. It makes sense. And I, I do a lot of what you're talking about with my clients is trying to help people reframe their thoughts. And right, I, I study something called positive intelligence. We talked about that, that I, you having the positive versus negative thoughts. Most of us have a large percent of our thoughts are negative. And according to the science that, um, this guy came up with, it's like we need to switch that to like 2 positive thoughts for every negative thought that we have to really, to really start to spiral up as opposed to spiraling down. Because we have negative thoughts, negative thoughts create more negative thoughts. So it's, it's a matter of trying to catch when we're having those negative thoughts and flip them the other way. And, you know, you talked a lot about the neuroscience of our bodies and the way our brains are wired. And you said people can say this gets really technical. I'm an engineer, so it doesn't bother me. I try to keep it simple for people. But just like, understand, you're predisposed to this, and it's not helping you. Your brain is wired to, to keep you alive. It's not wired to make you happy or make you fulfilled. So you've got to break that program that you talked about. And the only way to do that is through some of these techniques, you know, yoga, through doing EFT, through doing meditation, you know, mindfulness, through doing gratitude practice. I, I, I tell people you've got to focus on what's going well because life is always a mixed bag. There's always good things and bad things. If you focus on the bad things, that's all you're going to see.

Absolutely. And we have to focus on that. We're still alive. We still have a life to live. And I know my loved ones want me to continue. They would not want me to you know, just give up and basically live a, you know, very sad life. So I think it's a choice. People have to choose. I don't think suicide's a choice, but I think healing's a choice. And so I like to teach people is they have to just dive in. It's going to take time. I mean, it's a process for everybody. I think it's a personal process. So I don't think there's— because people always ask me, because typically suicide has been known, um, a lot of research, that's basically a 7-year journey. Um, and so when people hear that, they, you know, but it doesn't have to be. That is just, you know, research And there's more tools today that are more widely, um, talked about. We've always had the tools, we just didn't know we had them. So I think if people just start doing a little research on things that, um, they can do with themselves, you know, with their own bodies— you don't have to go out, and if you don't have a lot of money for therapy, um, you know, there's ways you can do it yourself too if you need to.

It's interesting you mentioned the 7-year journey because I was just recently thinking about this. I, I work or I've studied a lot of people that have had near-death experiences, and I've interviewed a lot of people who've had them and stuff like that. And, uh, PMA Atwater said it takes the average adult 7 to 14 years to integrate their near-death experience. That— so I'm like, what came in is like grief, and I'm not particularly suicide, but grief is a spiritual transformative experience, right? It changes who we are, changes our body. You are like literally a different person after you've lost someone. Gone. So that experience takes a while to integrate. Well, now, whether it's 7 years or not, you know, it could be different. It's gonna be different for everybody. But we tend to want to rush through grief. We want to like get back to who we were. We want to get over it. And it's a process, and it's a, it's a journey that we have to go through. So when I hear you say that, it doesn't mean it's— this is like a diagnosis or a sentence that for 7 years you're going to be, you know, terrible. But it's going to take you a while to integrate it, right?

And so that's what I tell people, it's a personal journey. I think, um, again, I lost my nephew in 2022 and I'm here. Yeah, I'm living life, I'm celebrating how we live. So again, I've been doing it for a long time too, you know, right?

Yeah, you've had some experience.

Yeah, right. But it doesn't have to be. So I usually tell people, just focus on your experience, how you're feeling. Exactly. You know, just because someone else is We don't know what their life is, you know, if it took them 14 years. There's a lot of stories when people come to me, "Well, my friend, you know, she lost someone to suicide 14 years ago and she's still—" I'm like, "Well, you're not your friend." We don't ever, you know, don't judge. I'm not judging her friend, but we don't know their personal experience or their beliefs or who they are. So I think it's just a personal journey that we should openly talk about. And that's why survivors, I think that's the worst thing is that they're afraid to talk about it. Um, and still I know many that are still telling their friends their husband had a heart attack because of religious beliefs or stuff. And that's also— I don't push them to talk about it, but they have to find their way to get it out. So that shame is what keeps us from moving forward, I think.

Yeah. And, and I love what you said. We're not— we don't have— if, if you feel uncomfortable talking about— we're not pushing anybody to do anything they feel uncomfortable with. But on the other hand, the more people who do talk about it, that's That's, that's what gets rid of the shame, right? When we can openly talk about it and not, not be ashamed and say, yes, people do pass by suicide, and there's— it doesn't mean that they're a bad person, certainly not at all. Doesn't mean that they sinned or that God doesn't love them. It's just, you know, as you said, it's a way of passing. The way I look at it, from, I think, from spirit perspective, you said a little while ago, we're all going to. And I think when we get back to where we came from, no one's judging like, how— oh, you died this way, that's a terror, that's, that's a bad thing. It's like, we all have to leave our bodies some way. And you mentioned someone earlier who's, who's a mutual friend, and I won't say the name. But even in the spiritual community, I've heard a lot of people say, well, everything in life is planned. We have a soul plan, everything, everything except suicide. And I'm like, But why would you say except suicide? Because we're still carving that one thing out, right? It's the only, you know, drug addiction, that's planned, right? You were in an accident, you know, that's planned. But suicide is not planned. And I think that's, that's just holding on to that old stigma that we have, right?

And I disagree with that. I do think it was probably their time. Yeah, yeah. Because when I look back on the ones I lost They lived life to the fullest, all of them. All of them. You know, my nephew at the age of 10 started a lawn service that grew into this huge landscaping business. So when he passed at 24, I have never seen so many people at a service in my life from all walks of life that he touched. Yeah. I thought, how amazing is this? Because, you know, he was always like a go-getter, just very involved with people and helping people at a very young age. So looking back on that, I thought, wow, this was just his mission because he did leave a mark. Mark on the world. Yeah, my uncle was the same way. So I think if people really look at their loved one for how they lived and not how they died, they're gonna— they're gonna see that, you know, suicide doesn't define them. Because, you know, society has made us look at their death more than we should.

I, I'm so glad you said that. My daughter was 15 when she passed, and, you know, people say it was a tragedy because her life was cut short. And I'm like, I think that's how long her life was supposed to be. Um, you know, what is, what is a life? Is it, is it 15 years? Is it 60 years? At 90 years, everybody feels like their life was cut short when they get to that, that point. But the idea— and I've heard again people in spiritual circles say, oh, if you take your own life, you'll have to come back. You have to come back and learn the lessons you didn't learn. Why, why, why if you take your own life at 15 versus if you died in a car accident at 15? What's, what's the difference? So this idea that there's a certain way of passing, that's the right way. I'm— I don't, I don't agree with that.

I don't either. But I think it goes back to the programming from their childhood. So if they just look at that and try to work on that, that's why my first thing I do with most survivors is we work on that. We rewire that, their, their programming, because that's the way, you know, because their, their parents were programmed the same way. So we have this whole ancestral lineage. So that's why I try to tell people just to look at how they really feel about it, because sometimes it's those triggers that keep us from, you know, expanding our, our thought process. And that's what I did. You know, I was the only person in my very large family that told people how he died, how my uncle died. Yeah, because I knew I had to, because I wasn't ashamed of him. I was never upset with them. I've never been ashamed of any of them. I'm sad they're not here, but I'm also grateful that they're not in pain. Yeah, there's one thing I always thought, because I didn't know my nephew was struggling, um, and that was one of my hardest things to deal with. And I thought about— I used to ask myself at the time, if he was still here, what was one thing I would say to him? And I would tell him, I'll take your pain. So that's what I've actually done. We have taken their pain, um, and we've released it from them. That's how I like to look at it. That's what's helped me heal, because they were in a lot of pain. Um, when that happened, and their body just couldn't withstand it anymore.

Yeah, that's, that's the way I look at it also. And, and the thing is, you know, this world is, it's a difficult place to be. It's, it's a painful world. And I think a lot of people who, who do pass by suicide, the pain is just too much. It's, it's, uh, I think we're the ones that are messed up because we can live with it. We, we just got to put it aside. And these people feel very deeply. You know, we talked about Robin Williams. I think about, um, uh, Chester Bennington, uh, Linkin Park, um, you know, super, super sensitive guy. And you would look at him and say, you know, he was— it was the height of his career and family and, you know, kids and stuff, but there's just so much pain going on. I think that these— that people like that take on themselves, so it becomes overwhelming, right? Again, we—

well, I don't think we'll ever know that, but I do think it's just something— I think it's predisposed. Yeah, for a lot of them, because they do— they live. And my brother was the same way. He was a high achiever. Um, these weren't sad ones. And that's why I think also the stigma comes from coming— you know, movies and stuff portray people that die by suicide, you know, as sad, lonely, no jobs, drug addiction. I mean, all of that sometimes has a big part of what people think about suicide because, you know, that's how movies tend to portray it, right? And that's just not true. It's just not true. Um, you know, there are people just like us. Yeah. We never know what's going to hit us, just like, you know, any other disease. So that's my goal in, in life. I think that's why I'm now carrying all of this, um, and helping people, is because I want people to understand that, um, had nothing to do with them. Their person was sick. Yeah. They didn't do anything wrong. I don't think they— I don't— we don't know if they could have saved them. Obviously they couldn't because I think it would have happened. Like I said, I I have two siblings that I saved, but then I wasn't there, you know, I didn't save my nephew. So we'll never know why that happened, um, and why we're still here.

Yeah, well, there is this human tendency to want to apply blame. I don't exactly know where it comes from or why it is. I just know it's not really helpful. Um, and I see people at the end— I see people doing it with all sorts of, of deaths. Um, and but the one where I guess it's so easy to do and accept it is when it comes to like suicide. And so what I want to say to people that are going through that, I've had parents who have lost— I, I have a woman, a woman I talked to, her daughter was killed by a drunk driver. Her daughter was grown, wasn't even with her, didn't even live with her, was killed by a drunk driver. And this woman blamed herself and came up with 7 reasons why 7 things she did wrong the day her daughter passed away. And I use that as an example of that tendency to blame ourselves. And again, when it comes to suicide, you've got that, and then you've got other people actually either implicitly or explicitly blaming you also. Like, your husband took his life, why do you know what's happening? What did you do to contribute to it? You know, you've got that, that feeling. So it's, um, it's something we really, really have to fight with the truth. And that's what you're talking about, like all these techniques to help us to understand that this is not our fault, that first of all, no one's at fault. That's, that's the thing. It's like no one's at fault. So stop trying to find somewhere to put this blame.

Absolutely. And then there's— I mean, the biggest message I like to tell people is there, you can heal, you can get through this. You know, we're made to endure a lot of pain in life. I mean, we're humans, you know. It's pretty amazing how our bodies are made to withstand this. So you can't— you can get through it. I mean, I've done it 4 times now. I have a lot of clients that have done it. And like you with what you're doing with your work, but people don't think they can do that with suicide for some reason because society has told them. Or society, you know, shame is the biggest, you know, the worst emotion we can feel from a neuroscience standpoint. So it's that shame that keeps survivors stuck is because Yeah, I mean, the comments I've had— when my nephew passed in 2022, um, I wrote, I wrote his obituary with the permission of his parents, my sister and her husband. We wanted people to know how he died. We— because we're not ashamed of it. So I put it on Facebook, his obituary. So we wanted his friends to know, etc. I had got so many messages of people, you know, accusing me of this horrible thing. I was saying how he died by suicide. I took my page— I take my Facebook page now. I had over 10 from friends. I got hundreds of— and I know these people— hundreds of messages because they thought, why are you wanting to, you know, put this out there publicly? Because he's my nephew and he died. Yeah, yeah. I didn't highlight the suicide. We just said that, you know, he lost his life, you know, lost the battle or whatever. And, um, I was just so surprised with that. And this was in 2022. And so I took my page down because I thought I'm not going to be ashamed of him, but I wasn't going to, you know, spiral even deeper. So I think social media plays a big part of a lot of stuff too, because my nephew, my sister said, because he was struggling, and a couple weeks before he left, um, he took all of his socials down because he was starting to feel like, you know, people didn't like him because his thinking was distorted, because he would post something and people weren't saying anything. Yeah. So I mean, I'm not saying that caused him to— he was obviously struggling But it's little things like that. But yeah, I was so surprised with that in 2022. So I thought, okay, I'm not going to let this define how he lived because we now celebrate how he lived. We're having his birthday is May 22nd. So we're having a big party for him with his friends at his favorite brewery. And so we do that. We celebrate how he lived, not how he died. And people kind of, um, and we have a lot of people coming to that. So that's why I teach my clients too, is we don't let it, we don't have to let it define us.

It doesn't, you know. And, and I've heard people that come through from the other side through mediums and stuff and say, stop focusing on the way I passed out of this world and focus on the way that I lived, right? That you're, you're using that one moment to define them. And again, a lot of us get caught up in that, you know. People want to know how did they die, did you know, you know, what was it like at the very end, what was like, was that last moment like. And it's there, we have an entire life that we've lived with that person We don't have to focus on, on that one thing. And, you know, I also want to say this to people who have lost someone to suicide and feel like you're being shunned: it happens to anybody that loses a child. Um, it's not everybody that shuns you, but you lose people. I haven't talked— I don't think anybody yet that doesn't lose someone, because people, it's like they think it's contagious, right? And they'll ask you a lot of questions. Well, how did she die? And you know, did you know about it? Because, because they feel like there's like this superstition, like something's going to happen to their kid. I don't know, I can't really explain it, but people don't know how to be around people that are in grief in general. And again, multiply that by whatever when you talk about someone who's lost someone to suicide. So people are like, oh, why would you say that? Because there's this fear, like if, if you know that so-and-so passed by suicide, then you might do you know, like you're gonna get the idea and do, and do what they did. And that's not the way it works.

I'm glad you mentioned that because a lot of people think if you talk about suicide, it's going to give them the idea. That's not true. And that's why, back to the comment when I was mentioning when people, you know, say they're struggling, you know, just listen. You know, the belief system has been if you let them talk about it, it's going to make them do it. It's not— that's not true. Yeah, they need to talk about it. Just think when you want to talk about stuff. I mean, right, right. That's how we communicate, and that's how we heal, is through community. So when you don't have that community to talk to, I'm not saying that causes them to die, but I just think it's many different things and it's just like a perfect storm.

Well, I think sometimes talking about it is people reaching out for help. Right. You mentioned your client who used the gun and ended up paralyzed. You know, people, they try to reach out for help in ways, and then we we, as we said earlier, we either ignore it and dismiss it, or we say, don't talk about that, you know, because we feel like talking about something is going to cause it to happen, which is exactly the opposite. We, we need to be witnessed. We need to have our pain witnessed. And people, sometimes talking about it can maybe help them fight that urge, just being able to express it and to be understood and to know that they're not alone.

Because then they're talking about— you might say, well, you know what, I have felt that way before myself. Yeah. Um, and they— it just humanizes the situation. It makes them feel heard. So, you know, I don't know if that's going to save everybody, but I know, again, I have many people that have attempted and they've never attempted again because after it happened they were able to talk about it. They were able to get the support they needed. And now, like my siblings, the two, they're well now. So, and that's why I think also people think, you know, the confusion with suicide is, okay, how's some people survive and some don't. But same thing with cancer, some people survive and some don't. So I just think we need to start treating all disease equally. Yeah. Um, because they all have different, different ways and different characteristics, and we don't know how anything happens to anybody typically. Because again, you get the smoker that smokes for 60 years and never gets cancer, and someone that's never smoked that gets cancer. So that's what I like to, you know, that's what's helped me the most in my journey, is to kind of dismiss all of that limiting beliefs that we've been given. And also, um, you mentioned people don't like to see people in pain because as children, at least in my generation— I have clients, they all agree— we're told not to cry. Exactly. We would get in trouble for crying. Yes. I would— I'd get sent to my room for crying. So we've grown up to feel like having emotions are not healthy. So I encourage people to cry because Tears. We were given tears as our, you know, to cleanse. It's, you know, that's why you feel better when you cry. So I do think that's something. Another thing that has stunted, um, the growth of a lot of people is stuff like that. That's your childhood programming, or it could be even an adult program, but most of it comes from your childhood because our parents were taught that, um, from their parents. And we're taught, like, if you see someone crying in public, um, most people like, oh my God, why are you crying? Quit crying. Let them Yeah, we're allowed to cry. So I just think it's interesting as humans what we're taught and how we carry it through life. And but yeah, you mentioned that, you know, death changes people. Suicide has totally changed my life. And I think I'm a better person because of it. Because I don't take anything for granted. I am more— I live in the present moment now. I listen to people. I try to keep a positive mindset about things because it could happen to any of us. So I do think there's a silver lining with all of death, and that's why I remind people that have lost someone to suicide, if you really work on it, look deep, you're going to find that. And I'm not just saying I, I'm glad mine aren't here, I would take them back in a minute, right? Um, but yeah, I think I'm a much— and most people that have gone through, like you're saying with your daughter, um, you've come out the other side. I do think there's a reason sometimes that we are tasked— we all have a journey, and this is my journey. I, um, I wouldn't, I wouldn't not want to be on it because I, I wanted to be with my loved ones too. Because if I would say I never want to have this happen, it's like saying I didn't want these 4 people in my life.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

You gotta take the good with the bad, um, just like with anything in life. So I do think that's important for people, um. And if anyone's listening that are having thoughts, talk to somebody. Me. They're not bad thoughts, they're just thoughts. Yeah. Um, and you're human, so we're allowed to have negative, negative feelings and thoughts because that's just part of who we are.

Yeah, yeah. I think, I think the thoughts are very normal. I think we— I think we— I, I, I don't like to say— make universal statements, but I think we all have them at some point, you know. It's just that some of us are better at like compartmentalizing them and realizing this is a a, a permanent solution to a temporary problem. As you said, a lot of times when I hear people who have attempted suicide or who've even completed suicide and come back through, through a medium, etc., they'll say, this is not what I meant to do. I just wanted the pain to stop. Um, so it's, it is a way of, you know, I try to imagine what it's like. It's like, I guess if there's like a super loud noise in your head that you could never get to stop, right? And you would just do anything to get to stop. And they just want the quiet. They just want— they just want the peace. And not realizing— or not, not realizing, but not being able to really comprehend this is a permanent thing that I'm doing here. Um, so again, no judgment is what I think where it comes down to me. If I want to really try to understand, like, you know, this could be me too. It's just not like this person is defective. There's nothing wrong with them. It's just this world is tough.

I don't ever— I don't think we're ever going to understand it either. No, we just need to, again, celebrate their life. Yeah. And, you know, take care of ourselves and grieve, grieve properly. Because I have so many people, I have clients that— I have a new client that she lost her mother 60 years ago because she was— this was, you know, 60 years ago, she wasn't allowed to talk about it. So now she's having a lot of physical stuff because it's, you know, she kind of forgot— not forgot about it, but, you know, she had kids, you know, life got busy. But now that she's getting ready to retire, it's hit her that she never grieved her mother. So it's never too late to grieve either, is what I'm saying, mentioning that. So even if you lost somebody, you know, 60 years ago, it's not too late. It's just important because there's a lot of new technology out there. Well, it's not really new. It's stuff that we talk more about now, techniques that are more, more common for people, like the somatic healing, right, that people are doing. I think you do some of that probably too. I do that. So people don't realize that there's stuff they can do if they're properly taught how to do it. And also a lot of people go on YouTube and try things and it doesn't work because I tell people that some work marketing tool. So don't say the tools don't work, you know, find a professional to help you is what I usually advise, uh, to make sure you're using it properly. I mean, it's not going to hurt you, but I've had so many people come to me especially about EFT. Well, I tried it on YouTube, it didn't whatever. I said, well, that YouTube video is just a marketing tool for a certain emotion. If you weren't having that emotion, that person on YouTube doesn't know what you're going through. So, um, I usually tell people don't, you know, judge it, um, until you, you you make it more personal for your, for your own journey. Personalize it for yourself. It's not canned is what I'm trying to say. I think every survivor, every, you know, anyone grieving any kind of death, I think we all have different paths.

Absolutely. Yeah.

And we have the, and we have the choice to choose that path.

But, Jane, I know you've developed a lot of resources to help people. Um, so tell people about what tools you have that they could find to, to help them.

I have a lot of workshops. I have an upcoming workshop actually, um, in June. Um, Carla Fine— have you heard of Carla? I have not, no. She is, um, bestselling author. She wrote the book No Time to Say Goodbye: Surviving the Suicide of a Loved One. Got the book in front of me, so I'm reading it. Um, she lost her husband back in 1989, so she's been a survivor a little more than I have, but she became actually the voice for Suicide Loss Survivors. Her, her, hers is basically the first book to talk about it. She said she even— because she's a writer, so when her husband— he was a prominent New York physician, top of his career, the least likely person to do it because, you know, again, he's a doctor, he's a healer. So, and she had never been through anything like that before, so she went, you know, as a writer to find a book for herself. She found books on how to kill yourself but couldn't find a book on how to survive suicide. So she wrote this book, and it's now become like the, the Bible for survivors. It's the, you know, the first book out there, but it's a very good book because she became like the first voice. So I'm doing a workshop with her, um, in June. Starts on June 9th. We're going to be, um, it's a writing workshop talking about emotions and stuff. So that— I do workshops like that with people that have been through it. I, um, do private sessions virtually. I have clients all over. All over the world. I teach tools, I have free support groups. So yeah, if you go to my website healingaftersuicide.net, I have a lot of resources, and I have a private Facebook group. You can join that because I think that's another thing— people don't want to tell their stories openly. So my stuff is usually pretty private, and even the groups, it's all survivors of suicide loss, or, you know, it's a place that you can feel safe grief. And not that they can't be out with people grieving, it's just a different kind of grief. So people usually like that, um, that they have that privacy. I primarily work with women. I do have some men just because women grieve differently. So men don't typically find me. I just think it's an energy kind of thing. But I have worked with some men too, but my groups are primarily for women.

Yeah, well, my experience, most of my clients are women. And I was like, it's, it's really sad. I think that men don't reach out for this.

Is that what it is, is that men don't want—

don't know how to heal? I think men don't really reach out for this. That's the only conclusion I can come to after doing this for, you know, 10 years. I was telling part of Helping Parents Heal, it's gotten, it's gotten better. Um, just give you an example, Helping Parents Heal, the organization I'm part of, um, I think our first conference was, I don't know, 85-90% women. Our conferences now, I would guess, are probably more like 60/40. Still mostly women, but there are a lot more men coming, and they're not just being dragged along like the first men were. So I think that is getting better, but there is— I think there's still a lot of stigma with men being able to process grief, especially around crying.

Men don't think they can cry either, I think.

Yeah, well, you know, it's funny you mentioned crying earlier. One of the— I'll get on with a new client and they'll almost immediately— I always ask them, tell me about your loved one, they'll start crying, and then they'll apologize for crying. And I'm like, no, crying is a good thing. Crying is the way that we release. As you said, we always feel better after we cry. That's, that's, that's our biology's way of processing this. And your story, you know, with, with the lupus is an extreme example, but we hold grief in our bodies and we have to be able to release it, otherwise it manifests in different ways. So it's, it's finding out how do I, how do I process this grief, not run from it, not think this is a negative thought, this is negative emotion, but how do I process this and honor it? Absolutely. Well, Jane, we're coming to the end of our time. It's been, uh, great to have you here today. You've already given your website, but please give it again for anybody that might have missed it.

Uh, healingaftersuicide.net. Yeah. Um, I also do, you know, free discovery sessions, all of that stuff, and I'm not I'm a big sales type person, so I work with a lot of people if they can't afford it. Um, I also do that, so I don't want to get the help because of financial— because right now, especially in our current economy, I know it's really tough. So I used to have people just contact me personally if they feel like they need help but can't afford it. Yeah, great.

That, that sounds great. So really, again, appreciate you being here this afternoon. Have a great rest of your day.

It's a pleasure. Thank you so much.

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