Remembering PMH Atwater: The Near-Death Experience Pioneer Who Died Three Times | EP 496

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. I'm recording this on July 11, 2026. And I just found out yesterday that we lost one of the great ones from the afterlife community. PMH Atwater, one of the pioneers when it comes to discovering what NDEs are, NDEs in children, and NDEs, how long it takes to integrate them into our lives, etc. And I was fortunate enough to interview her not once, not twice, but 3 times for my podcast. And this was back in 2019 when I was just getting started. She had no idea who I was. And I can't believe she actually sat down with me for 3 different interviews. I was also fortunate enough to meet her at the at a men's conference a couple years ago and got to meet her face to face. And such a— first of all, a brilliant woman, but also such a bright light and just lit up every room that she was in. And I've never had more fun recording a podcast than I have recording the 3 episodes I did with her. So as a tribute to her, I'm re-releasing this one. This is my first interview with her. If you want to go back and find the other ones, they were in October of 2019. But thank you, PMH Atwater, for everything you did while you were here in the body. I know your work continues on the other side. We are all going to miss you tremendously here, but I know they're rejoicing where you are back home.

Hi there.

Welcome to the Grief to Growth Podcast. Your host is Brian D Smith, spiritual seeker, grief survivor, and life coach. Brian believes that the worst tragedies of life provide the greatest opportunity for growth. Brian says he was planted, not buried, and he's here to help you grow where you've been planted. In each episode, Brian and his guests will share what has helped them to survive and thrive. His sincere hope is that this episode helps you today. Today's episode is with the famous PMH Atwater, and I have to say, this was probably the most fun interview I've done. She's an amazing soul. An amazing presence, and it's just a joy to be with her. So I hope that you sit back and listen to this, that you enjoy it as much as I do. And with that, this is PMH Atwater. Hey everybody, this is, this is Brian D Smith, your host of Grief 2 Growth. And I'm here today to say I have a special guest with me. I'm really honored and thrilled to have her with me. We have PMH Atwater. And if you don't know who she is, I'm gonna read a short bio of her. She is one of, if not the premier researcher in near-death experiences. PMH Atwater is the author of more than 15 books. I know that's old. I know it's up to at least 18 now, including Future Memory, Beyond the Indigo Children, We Live Forever, and I Died Three Times in 1977: The Complete Story. She's been researching the near-death phenomenon since 1978 and is obviously considered a world authority on the subject. She's a workshop leader at major spiritual holistic gatherings, and has addressed audiences at the International Association of Near-Death Studies, otherwise known as IANDS, as well as the United Nations. She's appeared on numerous television programs and in numerous countries. Her books have been translated into over 12 languages. She's appeared on Larry King Live, Regis and Kathie Lee, and Geraldo. And she lives in Charlottesville, Virginia. And I know you've interviewed I don't even know what the number is now. Is it probably 5,000 near-death experiencers?

Nearly 5,000 adults and children.

Yes, nearly 5,000 adults and children. So what I want to do today, we're going to probably end up doing a series because there's so much to talk about with PMH. So today we're going to talk about her background, how she got to be where she is, what her research has been, and we're going to talk about, uh, one of her films, and, uh, that's As You Die. And then we're going to, we're going to follow up later on and talk about some of her other books. So that was a very long introduction. But I want to say welcome to PMH Potter.

It's so much fun to be with you.

Yeah, I gotta tell you, it's, it's a real thrill to have you on. As I said in the intro, you've got to be, you've got to be one of the, you've got to be the top NDE researcher. I know there's probably between you and Raymond Moody, it's got to be pretty close. I know he kind of started the whole thing. But you, you had your near-death experiences in 1977. Which is right before his book came out and he coined the phrase near-death experience.

Well, I began my work in '78.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you guys started out—

pioneer.

Yeah, definitely a pioneer. So you've had an interesting life leading up to all this.

Oh, yes. Yeah.

So the title of your book is I Died Three Times in 1977. So tell me about that.

Well, my goodness, that's where it was, where it all started.

Mm-hmm.

But let me backpedal a little, a little bit. Some other things. I had a very unusual childhood. When I reached adulthood, I became very interested in exploring the metaphysical, the paranormal, the esoteric. So I started Idaho's first nonprofit metaphysical corporation called Inner Forum. We're dealing with people by the thousands. That's no joke. Brought in a lot of speakers because I wanted people to know the facts, not the fiction, to be able to decide for themselves what was true and what isn't true. And what I did at that time, which I wish people would do everywhere, is when we first opened up shop, so to speak, I went around to all the major churches in town, introduced myself personally, said what Interform was and what we're doing, so that they would be prepared and they would know and they would have that importance of me being with them, them being with me, so we could talk together before Interform began. So I never had any problem with any of the churches because they knew us. And I think that it's important. I think we need to announce ourselves. I think we need to talk one-on-one. I think we need to always come from that point of respect. So that's what I did, and we had all kinds of experiments, all kinds of classes, anything from ghosty haunting to— you name it, we did it, you know, working with the chakras, all kinds of educational opportunities, bringing speakers in. So we really dealt with the top of the top.

Okay.

And I'm very proud of that. I'm very proud that for well over a decade, Inner Form was very active in Boise, Idaho. I lived in Boise, Idaho. And we, you know, we established a lot of groundwork. Well, after all of that, I reached the point where I was kind of getting, not really bored with the subject, but feeling a need to move on and do something else. So I decided I would become a bank manager. I was taking classes for the American Banking Institute. And I was just, I was taking drafting classes at Boise State University.— in the mathematical department, you know, I just, I was in a different world and I loved it. You know, I just loved it. And my oldest daughter by then was also in the same building. And so we could walk, you know, down the hall together, mom and daughter, you know, studying math and higher principles. And I just thought that was super cool. I loved it.

Yeah.

And then, and then I was raped and became pregnant, and all of the deaths and, you know, everything followed. So I died 3 times in 1977 within 3 months. The first was January 2, then January 4, then March 29, and that I had 3 major relapses, one of which was total adrenal failure. I was working at the time with a blood pressure reading of 60 over 60, which means I wasn't doing too good. And the whole process of all of that, I had to relearn how to crawl, how to stand, how to walk. How to tell the difference between left and right, how to see properly, hear properly, and rebuild all my belief systems. So, you know, 1977 was just a year of a lot of work and a lot of facing issues. Like, for instance, one of them was fear. Yeah, you know, I— even though I had these 3 near-death experiences, you know, and you're certainly facing what you learned and what you faced on the other side in different places. I think one of the big things that near-death experiencers face, whether they admit it or not, is fear. And I was facing a lot of fear because my leg was— my right leg was dragging. I wasn't getting well. I wasn't, you know, I was doing everything the medical community told me to do and it was bombing. It was working, working badly. And I was really jealous of other people who could walk and, you know,— and could handle themselves well. And it just, it was just a very frightful time. And, and, oh, you're gonna love this! Friends of mine recommended that I read two books. And, and, The Hobbit. And I'd never heard of Tolkien, right? Hobbit. And then The Lord of the Rings and the whole Ring trilogy. And then Dune by Frank Herbert. And those two books, Dune and really the Ring trilogy, saved my sanity and saved my life. Really?

How's that?

Because I became the people in the books. I became all of the people in the books. Because I was going through what they were going through. I mean, I was fighting for my life, and so what they went through literally was what I was going through. And the Dune trilogy, that too, you know, you know, that's another Christ story. If you haven't ever read, uh, um, the first book and, and even After that, it's another Christ— yeah, giving us another way of viewing the Christ story. And in that book, and I don't know why I did this, but I did, when they're talking about the witches, which is a group of women who could control things with their mind, they had the litany of fear. And that litany I mixed up and changed. Why I did that, I don't know, but I reformed and recreated the litany. My version of the litany just made such a difference, and I pass it on to everybody else. In fact, in some of my books in the back I give my version of the litany, and it goes like this: Fear is the mind killer. It is the little death. I will pass through my fear. It will go around me and through me. And when it is gone, I will remain. Wow.

Yeah, I like that.

And I would chant that. I would chant that sometimes by the hour because that gave me courage. That told me and showed me that anything that happened I could pass right through it and come out the other end. Wow. There was so much courage in that.

Yeah.

I pass that on to your listeners that the Litany of Fear is just so valuable. And there for a while, at first, the the only logical phrase I could say is God is, and I would chant it. I would chant it over and over and over again, sometimes by the hour, and it kept me sane.

Wow.

It just kept me sane because when you've had near-death experiences, irrespective of the physical cost involved, and in my case, that was that was quite substantial. You're dealing with where you were versus where you, you now are, and the conflict or the change or the, or the challenge between the two.

Yeah.

And for me, that was, that was quite substantial.

Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief? Most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it. The community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing. Listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become. A place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there. Yeah, so for our listeners, could you tell us about your experience, your near-death experience?

Stay with us, we'll be right back.

Did you know that a new survey revealed that 23% of Americans have had a near-death experience, or NDE, and 35% know someone who has? This phenomena is more common than we thought. This August, 1,000 people are expected to gather for the International Association for Near-Death Studies annual conference in Bellevue, Washington. August 26th through 30th. The conference features well-known authors like neurosurgeon Eben Alexander, who experienced an NDE while in a coma and was transformed by what he experienced. More than 30 people will present research, discuss mental health and NDEs, explore spirituality, and support one another. Attendees will enjoy a bookstore featuring author book signings, an exhibit floor, a healing center, and a joyous Saturday night dance party. Early bird registration rates are available through July 15th. Visit IANDS.org now, I-A-N-D-S dot org, and join the 1,000 people who are expected to attend.

Well, I would— I could be short and brief. Long version, you have to get the little book. Yes. Sorry. Oh gee. January 2. I woke up needing to go to the bathroom immediately, right away. Made it to the bathroom, sat on the toilet, and that's where the miscarriage occurred. And the next thing I knew, I was up on the ceiling looking down, and I was confused by the difference in ratio of air and space. In my case, the light I went to was the bathroom light, and it was on, and I kept bumping into that light bulb as if, as if a moth drawn to a flame. I just kept bumping into it, and I kept wondering thoughts, you know, what am I doing up here? Why do I keep bumping into the light bulb? What's going on down there? And you know, when you die, you don't become someone else than you were. You are. And I've always been rather neat. And so when I saw that bloody body on the floor, it's just— there's no way I was going to own up to that. Just no way. I didn't care. I didn't care about that body at all.

Yeah.

That's pretty common, right?

Yeah.

I just cared about why I kept bumping into that light bulb and why suddenly there were all kinds of blobs forming in the air. When I say blobs, I mean like an ink blot blob, only fully dimensional. And they were kind of gray and funny looking, and I didn't like them. And the more I questioned where I was and what was going on, the more blobs there were. And there were more and more and more and more. Suddenly there was a snap. And I was snapped back into my body, entering through that soft spot on the top of our head, when a babe, and feeling the need to shrink and be pulled back down into my body, because I was bigger out of the body than I was in the body. So I had to shrink to fit back in. And then again, you don't become someone you're not. I mean, the first thing I did was clean up the mess. I mean, I did that. I really did. Pain and all, you clean up your messes. And stuffed myself with as much cotton and and blankets and sheets and towels that I could, gathered up every blanket I could in the house and went to bed and propped up my legs as high as I could get them.

Wow.

I just went to bed. For me, and went to sleep, and for me that's normal because I'm a cop's kid. I was raised in a police station and they used We lived outside of town, Twin Falls, Idaho, and they would use that field outside my bedroom window as their gunnery range. And I never ever in all the years ever heard a single shot. I thought my dad was kidding me when he said they were all practicing their, you know, their skills outside my bedroom window. I thought he was lying to me because I never, never heard a single shot. So that I'm the kind of individual that when I go to sleep, that's it, I'm gone, forget it. It doesn't matter what's going on, I'm gone. And the next morning, my oldest daughter Natalie woke me up and said, should I call in to the office and say you're not feeling well?

Yeah.

Because the girls had been gone when all this happened. They came home and I was asleep on the— in my bed, so they didn't bother me. So that next morning Natalie said, you know, should I call in? I said yes. Um, and after the girls left for school, it just occurred to me Maybe I should go see a doctor.

Yeah.

You know, for an Idahoan, you've got to realize, in Idaho, especially southern Idaho, and especially where and when I was raised, you do your own thing.

Right.

You know, if you need medicine, you do that yourself. You don't go running to a doctor. If you need help in any way, you take care of that yourself or you go to neighbors. You know, again, you don't go running to some state authority or some county commissioner. You do it yourself. You can your own food, you bake your own bread, you know, on and on and on. I even made my children's own clothes for one year. After that, I didn't like doing it. But anyway, But I canned food to the tune of maybe 300 quarts and pints per year, bake my own bread. I mean, you know, that's the kind of people we were and I was. So to go to a doctor because I'm not feeling well or something is wrong is a big thing. Right. And I got into my car, how I started it and grew it, I don't know. My doctor's office was only about maybe 6, 8 blocks away in the same subdivision in Boise I was living in. And it took me like a half an hour or an hour to get there. I forget. It took a long time to get there because, because there were all these lightning bolts On the windshield, I could see lightning bolts, and the houses on either side would grow and change and move and wiggle, and the ground kept changing, and I'm just holding on for dear life trying to make it through this changing maze to get to the doctor's office. Finally made it, parked my car, walked in the door, and the head nurse I was there, and she screamed when she saw me. She said, "You look like you're dead. Let me get you into the, you know, the doctor right away." So I was pulled in right away, but the doctor did— I don't know. He started laughing. He just laughed and laughed and laughed at me. Because here I was, a grown woman, and I had allowed myself to be raped, and he thought that was stupid, um, that was crazy of me, and all of this pain for no fun.

Wow.

And he constantly made fun of me. He finally gave me a shot in the right thigh vein, um, that, um, that he really shouldn't have. He, reading my file, he would know I'm being super sensitive. I could not handle that shot, but he did it anyway. So I went back home and Took a long time to get back home, but when I walked in the door, the bleeding stopped immediately, like somebody turned the faucet off. I went to bed, and the next morning Natalie woke me up again. I said, yes, call in work. And I went, and I, and by then my right my left thigh was hurt so bad. It did— screaming pain, screaming pain. If I'd had a knife, I'd have cut my leg off. And the only phone we had was a wall phone in the kitchen. So I tried to get there, but I could no longer walk. All I could do was crawl. And I made it as far as the dining room and I couldn't go any further. I knew all the whole band of my right thigh was bright red, screaming red, and growing out to the right side where they had that shot. There was this— I called it a volcano. It was like a big lump and it was red-hot and it was boiling and it was screaming at me. And by the time I got to my dining room, I knew that lump was killing me. And I did the worst thing I could have ever done. I attacked the lump. I pounded it out. I hit it. I did everything I could to make the lump go away. Well, the lump won. So I died again. And this time I floated up to the ceiling, as per before, only this time I knew what was happening. And I looked down at my body and I wanted to know if I was really, really dead.

Yeah.

So I went down and kind of hovered around a little bit. Nowhere, you know, no heartbeat. I mean, nothing was working. I mean, the body was, as near as I could tell, gone. And so I went back up to the ceiling, and you just simply got to be someone who has gone through something like this before to understand what came next. Because when I was convinced that my body was really, really dead, that I didn't have to come back, I was gone, there was such joy! I twirled around that light fixture. This time it was not on. But I turned around that light fixture as if it were a maypole.

Yeah.

And I was just so happy. I'm dead, I'm dead at last. I'm dead. I don't have to come back. Um, there was no thought of the children or anything. I'm just— I'm out of here.

I want to say, you know, this was in 1977, right? So this is before anybody ever heard about a near-death experience. There was nothing in the literature. So your experience—

it had been out since 1974.

Oh, is it? Okay.

Because yeah, so some people knew about it, but I didn't.

I think for most of— I mean, a lot of us now, I mean, when I hear you describing, it sounds fairly common, right? Because we hear about it now. But I can only imagine what it was like for you then.

Stay with us, we'll be right back.

Do near-death experiences and related phenomena fascinate you? Are you curious for more information about this spiritually impactful experience? Well, I have great news for you because a spiritual Super Bowl is coming to Seattle August 26th through 30th. The International Association for Near-Death Studies, or IANDS, hosts its annual conference at the Hyatt Regency in Bellevue. The event features an all-star lineup of keynotes like Proof of Heaven author Eben Alexander and Dying to Be Me author Anita Moorjani. IANDS will also offer continuing education for professionals, a healing center, exhibit floor, bookstore, and a fun-filled Saturday night party. Early bird registration rates are available through July 15th. Visit iands.org— i-a-n-d-s.org— now and join the 1,000 people who are expected to attend. You'll experience connection with an incredible community of near-death experiencers and seekers.

Oh, it was just so thrilling. I'm sorry, it was thrilling. Um, and there in, in, in throughout my living room and my dining room were all these blobs. There were blobs again, only this time they were translucent and translucent, and they were beautiful and they were lovely. And I caught on. Blobs were thoughts.

Oh, wow.

Thoughts really are things.

Wow.

I mean, I didn't know that. I mean, I kind of knew that from previous studies. But here, to me, for me, was proof, absolute proof that thoughts are things.

Wow.

So I began then to wonder, could I create with my thoughts? Could I make things? Could I do things? And while I was thinking that, um, the whole span changed. I didn't, I didn't leave. I was still there by the light fixture. But something above just came down and enveloped me and my room and my home, and I was elsewhere. And it was a very dark black world, but it was, it was fascinating to me. It was, it was just utter black dark Yet, I mean, nothing was there. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Dark black. But yet there was the presence in that darkness of every thought that had ever been said, every deed that had ever been done, everything that had ever happened, plus everything that ever would be said or would be done or or ever would happen. And the only thing I could think of to call it was the void. And the void was just so pregnant with everything. So I went through various creation exercises. That's a good word to put it. And then later on, I was met by Jesus. Jesus came. And it wasn't any need to bow down, but my elder brother, who I hadn't seen in a long time, and I ran to him and hugged him, and it was just so much— he laughed and I laughed, and there was so much joy.— and then my loved ones who had previously died came, including a grandfather. I never would have had any opportunity to know him or what he looked like or anything else, because back in my day, I was illegitimate by birth. Back then, that was a crime. You didn't talk about children born out of wedlock. But I was one of those babies. So I never had an occasion to ever know really my dad, or later on I met him, but— or his dad. I did have an occasion to meet his mother, whom I love dearly.— but I didn't know this man. And he came up to me and he introduced himself to me, said who he was. And in our dialogue together, I could see traits I had that I couldn't place anywhere else in the family. It's like, where did that trait come from? But yet it came from my grandfather, my paternal grandfather. And I just like, oh boy, this is rich. Woo-hoo! This is good to know this! And then there's a life review.

Mm-hmm.

And for me, it was, you know, Jesus left, my loved ones left, and I'm in this life review. And for me, it was a review of every thought I had ever thought. Wow. Every deed I had ever done, everything that had happened to me in my life since birth, plus the effect of my energy, my being, whatever I had said, all that I was, on anyone who ever passed me by on the street, on the soil, on the water, on the plants, and on the air. I got the total gestalt of my ever having existed in the earth plane.

Wow.

And to me, that was hell.

Oh, wow. Really?

That was hell in the sense that I never knew we were responsible for that much.

Wow.

I've never been told that. I, I mean, if you do something wrong, you get slapped, you know, whatever. You, you, you learn that. But I didn't know that we were completely responsible for all that we are all the time.

Wow, that's deep for the whole world. Yeah.

And that was just heavy. So I forgave myself. I did. There wasn't some heavenly, uh, heavenly host that forgave me. I forgave myself because with all that I had quote-unquote done wrong, I had done something wonderfully well, and that was I was a doer. I was the kind of person that if something needed to be done, I just simply —did it. Probably, yeah. And, you know, nobody had to ask me to do anything. I just got up and did it. Yeah. And I liked that part of my personality. I thought that was just— that was good. Good, yeah. So I, you know, I came back and back to the body and— I was still lost over there. I mean, I was still there. Most near-death experiencers, when they come back, are not really back. Yeah, it takes a while. Yeah, I certainly wasn't back.

Yeah, I know it takes a while. And the thing is interesting, because you started your work not too long after that, but you say most near-death experiences take a while, even up to years, to integrate their experience.

Oh, the average adult takes 7 to 10 years. The average child takes 20 to 40 years. Right. Adults integrate, children compensate. Mm-hmm. So they, you know, it takes them a long time.

You came back and you went through this fear you talked about, but then you very quickly turned that into what's become your life's work.

Well, that was because of my third near-death experience. Okay. Let me just quickly say, but before I do, let me sort of tie up things with that doctor. Okay. He was later on sued for malpractice by several other patients.

Good.

When that hit the newspaper, I thought of joining the suit, and then I thought, no, I don't want blood money. I just want the people to know that this is not a good doctor. So the fact that he was being hit sued satisfied me. Yeah, so I just want to tie up this crazy doctor thing. And it's, it's, it's important for me to note something before I talk about the third near-death experience, and that is that I that throughout 1977, I wasn't getting well. I wasn't getting well. I wasn't getting well. In fact, I was getting worse. And so I did something very, very daring for me. I pulled myself out of the allopathic world. That is to say, no more MDs. Put myself into the hands of a naturopath who was very skilled in homeopathy and lifestyle, you know, and a very, very skilled man, Dr. William G. Reimer, no longer with us, but he was a giant. But even with him, I was starting to get worse too, which concerned him, concerned my friends. So they decided that they would truck me up in early November to Seattle, Washington to attend the Mind Miraculous Symposium. Held at the Seattle Center. And all the biggies were there, Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, you know, Stephen LaVey, not— I mean, they were all there. And so I was trucked up because I had to lay down the whole way up there. The doctor gave me a shot and I had all kinds of pills, got up there. And the first speakers paid for everything. And the first speaker was Dr. William Tiller. And his talk was The Eternal Now. And I couldn't tell you really a thing the man said, except toward the end of his talk, he felt that simultaneity, that everything happens at the same time in the same place, could be proved mathematically with physics. And that that it could be diagrammed. So they had a huge giant screen there. So he flipped up on that huge giant screen exactly what I saw and felt and did in my third near-death experience. Wow. And I jumped up out of there and ran for the foyer, collapsed under a light and just kept saying, you know, curled up and saying, "He saw it too. He saw it too." I'm not crazy. I'm not crazy. He thought too, I'm not crazy. And from then on, got well just lickety-split. Wow. And you see, the reason I wasn't getting well is because I thought I was crazy. Right, right. And I needed someone like Dr. William Tiller, not a doctor, not a nurse, someone like Tiller to say to me, no, you're not crazy. Wow, that's nice. And he did that in essence with his talk and that incredible diagram. So, ah, so I, so it's 1978. I sold a house I had just bought. Quit a job that I was told I was going to get a raise and a title, a bank title. I was working in the bank at the time, right, in the analytical division. And for a woman then to get a bank title was a very big deal. And I was gonna get a title. And a bump up and raise. And, you know, I'm working in the analytical department, and this is a big, big, big, big deal. So on that morning when I was to— when all of this was to happen, all kinds of little miracles started to occur. And when the time came for me to go in and talk to my boss about a promotion, Um, she was white, and she said, "Don't say a word, sit down." So I sat down, and she said, uh, she had been awakened that morning at 4 AM by a vision. She said, "I don't ever get visions." So she woke up her husband to make sure She had a witness, and in her vision she had been shown and told that she would go to her boss, the main guy in the bank, and that she told him that she would have to replace me because I was going to chase rainbows. Oh, wow. You know, and the only thing I could think of to do was to pound the table and say, "That's not fair. You knew about it before I did." Wow. But that, in fact, was what I was going to do. I was going to quit, sell everything I owned or put it in storage, walk out on my life. The kids were then where they needed to be. And I was going to cross the United States fulfilling all my childhood dreams and wishes and wind up in Falls Church, Virginia. I had no idea what Falls Church was, but that's where I was gonna be. Wow. And there I would begin my research. And that's exactly what I did. Now, the research quotient comes from the third near-death experience. And in, in the climax of that, I was told by a voice— I call it the voice like none other— no, it wasn't a guide, a guardian. No, it wasn't an angel. No, it wasn't any kind of big mucky muck you've ever heard about.— It was a voice so big. It was like the entire universe was speaking to me. And that voice said, and I quote, "Test revelation. You are to do the research. One book for each death." Then it showed me what that meant. It did not tell me how to do the research. I mean, I'm a cop's kid. Police investigative techniques is what I was raised in. I knew how to do that. Yeah. And Dad would always say, "The body says more than the mouth does." So I knew how to do the work. Book 1 was not named. Books 2 and 3 were named. Book 2 is Future Memory. Future Memory is not a book, it's a labyrinth. Every sentence, every paragraph, every page is part of the math I used to create the labyrinth. I was shown how by that voice. You stay on the path when you open the book. You stay on the path. You don't skip reading, or you'll wonder why I ever wrote such a dumb book. It doesn't fall together until you just read it straight through, like, like you would walk through a labyrinth. The purpose of the book is to raise your consciousness up to the next highest level possible for you. The book is a brain changer. Actually, it's a psychotronic device. The set— the third book is a manual for developing humans, and that book of course exists as well. It's, you know, it was done a couple of years ago. I finally was able to finish it with that help. The book has a fifth-dimensional format. That is to say, every part of the book— there's 6 sections— every part of the book has conscious, subconscious, and superconscious all at the same time. So what's the title of the third book? A Manual for Developing Humans. Oh, okay, that's the title. Years and years ago, hundreds of thousands of years ago, the word hu, H-U, the sound of hu was the sound of God. And so human was God-man, God-woman. So the premise of the book really is for you to be who you really are. And guess what? Guess who you really are? You're a child of God. Guess what? You're a co-creator with the Creator. It even says so in the Christian Bible. It says we are gods in the making. Okay, do it. Live it. Yeah. And a Manual for Developing Your Humans is for that purpose. And there are thought forms in the book that I made to show you what I learned about thought forms and in the air, and I drew them. So there's about, I think, maybe 23, 24 thought forms in the book. But it's full of these simple stories and simple exercises to help you be who you are. And what's the first book? Um, I have no idea. I was never told. Oh, really? I suppose maybe it's Coming Back to Life, which was my first major book. Okay. And it's now on amazon.com. Okay. And it was followed by Beyond the Light, and that also survives because it's on Amazon.com, because these are books a long time ago. So I'm supposing maybe it was some of those, but I was never told.

Wow. So now you're in false church and you start doing research. Who Were you— did you set up your own research? Were you working for a university?

Or how did that work? No, never, never, never working for a university. Never, never. In Chicago, I was visiting an uncle and met Dr. Elizabeth Kübler-Ross at O'Hare Airport. The plane was late. And so we sat down on a bench like a couple of schoolgirls, just us, and I told her about my 3 near-death experiences. And she said that I was a near-death survivor. She did not use the word experiencer. She validated my experiences. She said they were real, that I was a near-death survivor. She never mentioned Raymond Moody. She never mentioned his book. At all. And from her, from her description, from her, from discussions with her, I had all the information I needed. So I just started doing it. Wow. I mean, literally, I started doing— I opened up my mouth and give talks. And that's where I started meeting other near-death experiences. And, um, I watched them, I studied them, I listened, I asked questions, you know, wrote it all down. And, um, starting with dozens and then hundreds and then thousands, um, I did it on my own, my own pocket. Wow. To begin with, I gave psychic readings or rune castings Because that paid for my early research. Wow. I did them, it paid for my early research. No, it's all out of my own pocket. I'd get little jobs to pay for it.

So were you trained in research techniques and data analysis or? Well, sure. I was a COPS kid. Well, yeah, yeah, I know.

No, look, I did my first double-blind study with a control group at the age of 5. I was one of these people that was spooky and snoopy, and I was always trying to define what things are and, and, and how things connect. You know, being raised in a police station, uh, the, the, um, the room where they interrogate you know, the individual who has a problem. In those days they had the old-fashioned skeleton keyhole, which is a really big keyhole.

Yeah, yeah.

And I wasn't that big, so I could just stand up to the keyhole and look inside and see and hear everything that was going on inside. And always, always, always the person inside would say, Well, I just knew if I went with these people, there would be trouble. Or I just knew if I opened that door, and on and on and on. And me, this little kid listening and watching, I'm thinking to myself, well, if you just knew, why did you do it? Right? Why did you open that door? If, if you knew you'd have trouble opening that door? So I grew up thinking all adults were stupid and I would never go— I was never going to be an adult. Well, I later on became an adult, became stupid, but that's another story. But as a little kid, also I was born with dyslexia and synesthesia, which is an aberration of the limbic system. So it's multiple or blended senses. Wow. You get from synesthesia. So in the first grade, I was the only child in school who could smell color, see music, and hear numbers. Well, that's synesthesia. But in those days, they thought I was a liar. Right. And I spent most of the first grade on a tall stool in front of the class, having to wear a tall conical hat that said Dunsin. Oh no. As a bad child who told lies. The principal called my mother to school twice to get me kicked out of school. That didn't work. I stayed the full year. But I mean, I just can't begin to tell you what the nightmare the first, the first grade was. Plus, that's the time of, you know, Pearl Harbor. Yeah. And, you know, I'm walking to school and it's a long, long blocks to school and people would have gold star decals in their front window because then if someone died in the war effort, you were given a gold star decal and you put it up on your window. And, um, easily half of the homes on the path I walked— little Twin Falls, Idaho— easily half of the homes had gold stars. And this one home had 6 new gold stars overnight, and I just stood there and I sobbed and I sobbed and I sobbed. I don't recall a single morning in all of first grade when I didn't have to stop my tears and stop my shudders just to walk in the door of my first grade classroom. Yeah. So for me, the, the first grade was just one horrible, horrible nightmare. Um, I would go through any length to not get 100 on my papers, because if I did, the teacher would give me a gold star, and that meant death. Oh, wow. I could not, I could not have any peace with gold till I was in my 50s. I could not wear gold until I was in my 60s. Gold to me meant death. That was death. So I was raised to search, to find, to define, to find my own truth.

Yeah, you've obviously got just an incredible mind, incredible drive. I just— whoa!

So that drive then, I mean, Why not me? I mean, why would I be chosen to do the research? Chosen, quote unquote. Why not? Yeah. I've been redefining life since I was a little kid.

Yeah. I have to say, reading your book, I'm just amazed by the depth of your research, how careful you are. I was reading about your interview techniques and how you don't want to pollute the data by suggesting things. You were saying when you interviewed children, you would get down on their level.

Oh, you can never be above the child's eye level. Never, never, never. Right. If the kid is little, guess where you are? You're on the floor.

Well, let's, um, I could talk to you all day about your life, but we're going to do a couple more. Let's talk about As You Die. We're going to do a couple more interviews. Let's talk about As You Die. Fascinating film.

I'm gonna hold it up right now. Yeah. Yoo-hoo, can everybody see this?

As You Die, I Know That You Live Forever. It's available on DVD. And I've got to say, you know, as I was watching, I didn't know what to expect. And it's actually, it's a film for people who are actively dying. So it's not just, I mean, we can watch it, obviously we can watch it now, but it's, so that's—

It's the only video like it in the world. And there is none other. That was investigated by the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church. Yes. They were so impressed with this that they offered to take it over in the sense of producing it, getting it out there, and I got, you know, the seal of approval. So I went down there to Metairie, Louisiana, actually recorded it there, and yeah, you can get it through— let's see here— www.focusvideos.com. They are located in Metairie, Louisiana. Focus, or you can get it from my website, www.pmh@water.com. And the purpose of this— now let me tell you a little story of how this ever came to be. Okay. I don't know how long I'd been researching near-death states, maybe 20 years, maybe 30 years, I don't know, a long time. Well, it wasn't that long.

No.

Um, it probably happened in the '80s. There was still an AIDS epidemic, and a lot of our young men and middle-aged men and so forth were dying of AIDS. And a young man in New York City called me on the phone. And he said he talked with Elisabeth Kübler-Ross and Stephen Levine, all the leaders in the death and dying movement. He says, none of them are telling me what I want to know. I said, well, what is it you want to know? He says, I wanted to know what it feels like to die. Yeah. Well, so I spent an hour telling him what it is like based on my research, my own experience as well. Right. Spent an hour doing that. That hour I spent with him enabled him to die peacefully. Yeah. So through inspiration, I was inspired to take those words, put them in a script, and create the video. And then it was a cassette to As You Die. Yeah. Well, then the Catholic Church found out about it, and they thought, well, you know, we could really use this. And I was having problems with distribution. So we got together and then they did their investigation. You know, they don't do any— anything without knowing exactly what they have. Right. So it went through all the necessary steps becoming legal in the Catholic Church. They put their imprimatur on it and said, We'll back you. We'll do this. So then I got together with Focus Videos in Metairie, and they own the rights. I do not. I'm able to sell it, but, and keep, you know, a little bit of money. Mm-hmm. But whatever they sell, I don't get any money from that. And I'm at peace with that. I'm good with that. Because they're a great group. They're doing great things. And the fact that I'm not Catholic, so what? They're a great group. Yeah. And I will do everything I can to assist them and help them.

Well, let's talk about the video because I think it's very important. Place to work. And I didn't realize there's nothing else like it. Because, you know, you talked about earlier, this guy wanted to know what it's like to die. We fear what we don't know. Yeah. And, and so none of us remembers. We, we probably all died before, but none of us remembers what it's like. And we fear it. And there's this thing in our society that says death is the end, right? So you talk about it in the video. There, there's a natural resentment because I'm giving up my body. And we're thinking, all we're thinking about is we're losing So, and the thing I liked about the film is it talks about what we're gaining. It talks about, you know, this is not an end, it's a passage, right? Yeah.

The last 15 minutes are so designed to be played after the individual dies. Yes. Certainly they can play it before, but especially play it after they're dead. We know through medical science that the last faculty lost in death is the ability to hear. So that last 15 minutes is so designed to assist the soul as it leaves the body. Um, yeah, so play that, especially the last 10-15 minutes of the person's life, after they've after they've dead, after they're dead, even continue to play it.

We even talk about the process of dying as the body's shutting down and the senses are shutting down. And we're kind of, you know, everything's shutting down. But then I'll again, like, it doesn't end there. It doesn't end when everything's shutting down. Then you talk about what happens after the soul leaves the body. So talk about that.

Well, the fact that we just zoom right out is not necessarily true. Sometimes it takes a while for the soul to leave. Mm-hmm. It takes a while sometimes for the individual and the individual soul, the individual as a soul, to realize they can leave, that it would be good to leave, that it's their time to leave, and then it's okay to leave. Mm-hmm. There's a lot of emotions in that. There's a lot of memories. There's a lot of attachments. And those, those can dissolve, and they do dissolve, and they dissolve fairly quickly. And the more the soul becomes aware of itself as a soul, the more the totality of you begins to recognize the totality of you, the more you're ready to pass on. Yeah. And you just float right up. You do. Some of them will hang around, you know, we've got our hangers-on. Yeah. Once they're gone, they may still hang around. That might be ghosts, you know, what we call ghosts, you know, are haunting various houses or graveyards. Some of them will will stay for a while, maybe years in fact, to aid and assist, you know, the loved one who still remains. I know Whitley Strieber, who's a good friend of mine, I knew his wife Anne, and she's dead like maybe 12 years or more, and I just did his show last week And she's still, she's still around. She, she helps him. She has helped him all this time in his, um, radio show and everything he, he does. She's around to give him advice and give him encouragement. And, uh, it's such a wonderful partnership. And, and you, you do, you do get this, um, it's not a man who's hanging on or depending on his wife. No, it's just friends. Yeah. But some of them just leave. Then they're anxious to go elsewhere. And who's to say how many elsewheres there are? Right. You know, how many levels, how many states, how many dimensions, how many, how many, how many, we don't know. You know, you've got various people, various psychics, various mediums, that will define, you know, the first 7 levels, or the first 5 levels, or they'll define this, that, and the other. Please know that nobody knows how many places, levels, dimensions, whatever. Mm-hmm. That's not set in stone. Even our wonderful adepts in India who have studied a lot and know a lot of things, even them don't really know all. This is an incredible universe we live in. These are incredible dimensions or places. Sometimes people just want to hover around and stick around for a while and then slowly leave the earth plane. Some, some people just, you know, jet out and they don't want to be— they don't want to come back. And I've been aware just this year of something else. I don't know what to call it, so I'll call it presence. It's not a presence. It's not the presence. It's simply presence. And I know someday I'll just walk in there, and I'll be gone. Wow. And there's just something incredibly wondrous about presence. Yeah, yeah.

Well, um, I want to— about the, the film, because I want to talk about the film, um, I want to let people know it's not just for people who are actively dying. I think anybody that fears death, anybody that's curious about death, um, if you've got a loved one that's, that's dealing with a terminal We're all dealing with a terminal disease, it's called life. Diagnosis. It's, it's, I think it's good because you talk about, you know, planning, planning, you know, the funeral, planning, you know, doing your will, all those things that people don't want to do. But get that stuff done and to give a different perspective on what the whole thing is. So I do highly recommend it. I was, I was very pleased when I watched it.

Oh, very good, very good. I'm so glad that people are talking about this because it is a treasure. And what I have found since As You Die came out, and it's been out for a while, is that some people who have lost their loved one maybe a year or more will buy it and listen to it and have such comfort in listening to it, even though the loved one passed on a long time ago. They buy it for them, right? Not that they're gonna die pretty soon, but for the comfort it brings them. It's just, you know, they talk about a good death. Well, any death in a way is an opening to something else. Right. Even if there's nothing there, it's still an opening. And sometimes that's pleasant and sometimes it's not pleasant, but it's still an opening. And it's an opening to something more. And if we embrace that, then it can be joyful.

Yeah. Yeah. We've been going about an hour, and so I want to keep this to a reasonable amount. We've got a lot more to talk about, and you promised to come back and we're gonna do this again. About a week, actually. So, um, I want to say thank you very much. I feel it's a true honor, you know, getting a chance to meet you and just to experience you and to see the joy coming through you. And, um, it's just amazing. So I appreciate you being here.

Well, it's my honor as well to share this, and especially As You Die, the video. Um, Yeah, there haven't been that many people interested in it, and I'm glad you are. I hope the viewing audience is as well. It's a very valuable— it's very valuable piece of work.

I think it's a very valuable resource, and I'm sure that things are starting to open up. People are starting to talk about this more. And people are curious about it. So it'll, it'll— more and more people will discover it. Thank you very much. And I will see you soon. Bye. Hey, thanks for watching. Before you leave, I'd like to just remind you, you can always find me at www.grief2growth.com. That's grief numeral 2 growth.com. And you can schedule a free half-hour consultation if you'd like. Also, before you leave, please click on the like button here. Click on subscribe and click on the bell. By clicking like, YouTube will show the video to more people. And by subscribing and clicking the bell, you'll be notified when I release new material. Thanks for watching and have a great day. This has been another episode of Grief to Growth. And this is your host, Brian D Smith. Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed it. I am a life coach and grief partner. You can reach me at www.grief2growth.com. That's www.grief2growth.com. And if you'd like, you can book a free half-hour consultation. The other thing I'd like to ask for is your support for the podcast. If you could go to iTunes and leave a review, that would be wonderful. If you'd like to support me financially, you can support me for as little as $99 99 cents per month. And you can find the link to do that in every episode. Hope you have a great day. You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it. The community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing. Listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see see you there. Hi there, I'm really excited to tell you about my latest ebook. It's 4 lessons that you can learn from the near-death experience without going through all the trouble of dying to learn them. I've been studying NDEs for several years now. I am completely convinced that not only are they 100% real, but that there's some very universal wisdom that we can get from the near-death experience. And I've distilled that down in this book into 4 short lessons. And I've also given you all the reasons why I believe the NDEs are absolutely real. So go to www.grieftogrowth.com/NDElessons to pick it up for free. www.grief-the-number-2-growth.com/NDElessons. I hope you enjoy it.