Interview: Portfolio Manager Bets $280M on XRP

Let's talk about Trump, crypto, what's going on.

There's going to be some sweeping changes that happen across the Securities and Exchange Commission.

What is— what's the price target for you, though, on XRP?

The rest of the world is looking to get off the dollar standard, and there needs to be a solution that is a level playing field.

This is a massive year for stablecoins, I think. Boom, people, welcome on to the show. Jake Claver, good to have you on. Welcome on, brother.

Absolutely. Appreciate you having me, Bridger.

So let's talk. We're talking all things crypto, digital assets. What's going on? We have obviously the Trump inauguration, a lot of crypto things happening. I mean, the world is shaken up. I run a crypto hedge fund, you now manage, and obviously you have a multifamily office, Digital Wealth Partners. You guys are very, I guess, interested or on all digital assets, blockchain. What's your current AUM? Where are you guys at?

Yeah, we're close to $300 million in assets that are being onboarded. We work with Anchorage as our custodian, provide institutional custody there and work with people that hold digital assets as an individual. So a lot of people like yourself have put together fantastic products where you have a fund and you go take that capital and make people a bunch of money in crypto. They don't really have to know a whole lot. But you've also got this other sector of people that have invested in digital assets themselves and come into a bunch of capital and money, and they don't necessarily have all the professionals that they need to manage that wealth. And that's, that's what we provide and that's our niche.

Yeah, I love it, which I said this before when we talked earlier, like, I don't see us as adversaries. Like, anyone in crypto is good. It's more people in the industry. I love what you guys are doing. You're providing a lot of great service for family offices or wealthy people that want to hold and house digital assets and, and do it in a great way, which is just awesome. So congrats. So we'll come back to all that in a minute. I want to talk about the here and now. We're filming this on January 22nd for— to timestamp this because there are things happening. I mean, it's almost by the hour right now.

Yeah.

Maybe, Jay, give us a, give us a quick synopsis of the last, maybe last week, if not last 2 months, of just regulation that's coming out. What, what are things that you guys are watching? What's been on your radar?

Yeah, so with Trump coming in and shaking things up, we've got Gary Gensler who's out as of just a few days ago. We've got Paul moving in there at the SEC, and I think there's going to be some sweeping changes that happen across the Securities and Exchange Commission. And their fostering of innovation here in the U.S. rather than, you know, holding it back. And then you've got, you know, Congress, pro-crypto Congress. SAB 121 looks like that's going to get repealed. And so for people that don't know, that requires an institution to hold those assets on their balance sheet, even if they're managing those assets for somebody else. So it's really cumbersome. It's not the right way to do it. And so once that gets removed or repealed, that was pushed to Biden last year, and then he vetoed it. But I think that'll get through here in Q1. And I think you're going to see institutions moving in a huge way when it comes to digital assets, providing a full scope of services. Some of them probably in competition with what we do, but that's okay. We welcome it, right?

So, double-click on that for a second. So, they're currently institutions, if they bought a digital— is it only for digital assets? Only digital assets. It sits on their balance sheet, even if it's For someone else or as a proxy. Is that right?

Yeah. So, if banks wanted to hold your digital assets, they'd have to list that on their balance sheet.

Yeah.

And it would be collateral, right?

That doesn't make sense.

Yeah. No. So, anyway, they're going to be removing that. And that's been the main opposition for a lot of people moving in, along with the tax considerations, which is something else Trump is talking about here. Potentially, US-based crypto firms and know, networks, protocols, uh, would be tax-exempt, which would be huge for the adoption of a lot of these networks, uh, at a global scale, and especially here in the US.

Yeah, he said he wants the United States to be the crypto capital of the world, taking a line out of the UAE. That's what they were saying last year. They're like, hey, we want Dubai to be the crypto capital of the world, and it was becoming that. I mean, I, I knew a number of founders, entrepreneurs that said, I'm moving to Dubai, they're friendly, They like us, and Trump in just a few days has said, nope, it's all coming back, which people would, I think, would prefer to live in the United States, most people that I talk to, right? It's very exciting. We saw Bank of America CEO say the financial industry, this is the Bank of America CEO, pretty soon, the financial industry is ready to jump into crypto payments if regulation will allow. That is huge news. Just another of these, I guess you could call it a domino or cascade effect of all the things you just mentioned, All come together. We have a crypto task force team. First 100 days, they're looking to provide clarity. We have David Sachs leading that. There's a lot of rumors, I guess, at this point of what will come of that. But overall, I think the general message is America's open for business. We like crypto, we like blockchain, and not just blockchain and crypto. We saw last night Stargate. You see that? No, I missed it. $500 billion investment into AI infrastructure. They have the SoftBank CEO, Larry Ellison. Remember how a few weeks ago they had SoftBank there and he was like, do $200 billion or $300 billion? They just announced $500 billion coming. They want to make the US the AI capital of the world. I mean, it is. What do you think? What's— how is like— is it as rosy as it's painted to be? Like right now I am like, I can't— I'm not bullish enough on North America, United States right now. What do you think?

You know, I think there's got to be a lot of reform and they're going to come in and cut the fat in a lot of ways and change things. I think the US debt will get shored up and I think it'll be using digital assets to do that. You know, they've looked at a crypto reserve that could potentially offset the debt if there's a huge move up in value for some of those tokens or whatever they use in that capacity. Have you ever read the book The Future Is Faster Than You Think?

I love that book. Phenomenal book.

Yeah. So for people that haven't, it talks about all of the progressive technologies that are kind of at the forefront here and how those will come together to create efficiencies in markets. And I think we're at that point on Moore's Law where it's about to go exponential for the progression of technology. And there's going to be a huge amount of deflation that happens. I know a lot of people are hurting because the inflation and the money printing and a lot of what's happened over the last 4 years, but I think that may have been You know, maybe they could— they had the foresight that they saw all of this technology was going to converge with AI and there'd be a huge amount of deflation. So that'll bring prices down here for people, which I think a lot of people will be happy about.

Which is funny to talk about. I bring this up on my show all the time and people are like, what even is deflation? Like, what does that mean? And that book again is The Future Is Faster Than You Think. My dad, who's a big wealth manager and big fund manager, he says, he's like, I've read that book 3 or 4 times.

Yes.

And what it talks about is the convergence of technologies, meaning for like 2 decades, we're gonna have flying cars, right? We're gonna have these crazy things and they really couldn't happen. Flying cars couldn't happen, 'cause to have a flying car, you needed really big increases in robotics, you need big increases like in 5G and internet processing to process that much compute that fast. Obviously, you need really fast computers and maybe even AI. And so it's very hard to build a flying car, however, What we're seeing, and we had like the, you know, the Industrial Revolution, then like with automobiles or the Internet Revolution. Right now we're not just seeing one technology or two or three, we're seeing, in the book he puts out 10 emerging technologies that are all converging at the same time, and they are compounding together. So we're not just seeing growth in AI, we're seeing growth in AI and 5G and robotics and quantum computing and blockchain all at the same time, and then they're all helping each other.

Right.

And that's where he's like, this is a, like you mentioned, a compounding effect that's massive. And so, back to deflation, my favorite way that was pointed out to me for deflation was, for example, imagine if you had self-driving cars. So you have, or excuse me, self-driving trucks. So if you had self-driving trucks that could go 24/7, they don't have to take breaks, the cost of shipping theoretically should go down, right? When cost of shipping drops, all services and products most likely get cheaper. And especially if it's on maybe a fuel that's cheaper and they would— drill, baby, drill is the new thing, right? We're going to have apparently low energy prices in the United States. That is a deflationary effect on your economy. Technology is inherently deflationary because if you wear like VR goggles, for example, you can— if they were really good VR goggles, you could theoretically travel to Disney World in your headset. And so you don't like, for a couple hundred bucks, you could have a similar experience to be in Disneyland and you don't have to buy an air ticket and rent a car and go get the ticket and get a hotel and buy food. It's very deflationary for economies and is actually just as scary as inflation. Deflation could really mess things up. What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, so you're gonna say I'm a little, you know, dystopian here and that's, I'm okay with that. I think that there's a way that you could use this to our advantage here in the US. And if you had these huge increases in GDP, maybe the tariffs and other things, we actually become profitable as a nation, run it as like a for-profit. If you are blessed enough to live there in some of those countries in the Middle East, they pay their citizens a stipend off of the oil that they sell. And so, I think universal basic income actually becomes reasonable under these circumstances. They could print money if they had an AI to analyze all this stuff. We move to digital currency and they can see all of the transactions across an economy. The reason that the Soviet Union failed was because they couldn't allocate resources appropriately. So, nobody likes communism. I'm a capitalist at heart, but I think there are some things there for social good that could be Reasonable. And especially if you needed price stability in markets and you could print money in opposition of the deflationary effect of some of these technologies, you could dole that out to people and incentivize spending in certain sectors of the economy where there were deficits, right? And so anyway, this is my, like, craziness that goes on in my head. I'm sure you probably think about some of these things as well. But, um, yeah, I think that it's going to be a very— I kind of look at it like another Renaissance period. Um, if, if people had, you know, prices come down, uh, and they have some type of, you know, universal basic income that's not based on taxes from people— I don't think it's right to pull capital from one section of the population and distribute it somewhere else. I think that the nation itself needs to be profitable in some capacity. So, but if they can do that—

You're suggesting a surplus, which we actually had. I pulled it up. 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2001 under Bill Clinton, we had a surplus. And you're, you're arguing now, obviously, we've got a lot of debt to pay down and a lot, and I'm sure they will figure out how to spend it, but in a— like they always do. But in a world, that's a very interesting concept of you could— the government, back to a universal basic income. Now, the, the counterargument is every time this has been tried, It's always turned out horribly. Do you think— do you think this time would be different with, with access to technology or wallets? I don't know, other stuff. What— or do you think it'd be the same old story?

If you have greed and human interaction with something, you're going to run into those same problems, right? But if you can, if you can use smart contracts and a lot of these blockchain efficiencies that are created, and you can have things set in place that safeguard some of that, I think there's a way to do it. I'm not saying I have all the answers, but I think with AI and a lot of the things that we're going to see over the next decade here, it's reasonable that we could figure out a solution with those technologies. Yeah, interesting.

I want to switch over. We talked earlier, your firm has a big position in XRP. I think you mentioned— I don't want to quote you. You mentioned about $300 million. How much of that is in XRP?

95% of our clients' assets are XRP.

Wow. Okay, so let's call it north of $280 million is in XRP. Obviously, you've had a fun last 3 months, I'm sure.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Because what were you— were you $100 million then, 3 months ago?

About.

So, it's just ballooned, and literally in 3 months, a $200 million gain. Wow.

Yeah, our clients have seen a lot of good returns, and we think that'll continue. You know, again, kind of Going back to the conversation you and I had, I laid out a scenario that I think may play out here in 2025.

Yeah, let's talk through that. So right as of right now, XRP is at $3.16. A coin, a lot of new— obviously, they've got their stablecoin. XRP for years has been in legal trouble with the SEC. And we— I will— I actually— we can unpack that in a minute. Well, let's do it now. Give us the story of XRP. You'll tell better than me. Give us the story of XRP, where we've been. And then I'd love to hear where we're going, where you think we're going, And, uh, and maybe should people exit? What's maybe a price target that you guys are seeing? But give me the background of XRP. Take me all the way back to maybe, I don't know, 2016, '17, '18.

We can go back earlier than that.

Okay.

Uh, so, so XRP was actually the second token that was ever created after Bitcoin. Uh, if you go back to Ryan Fruiger, who was up in Canada, he had, uh, Ripple Pay back then. Um, and then that company kind of moved over to OpenCoin. That's who minted the original XRP, which was originally XNS. And then they gifted $80 billion to Ripple and kept $20 billion for the founders. Jed McCaleb sold all of his. There's been a lot of shuffling around of those assets over time. It's the only network that's never been down out of any of the other protocols out there. It's been running strong for 13 years now. This year in June will be 13 years. June 2nd, 2012.

I didn't know it was the second. Huh, that's it. I did not know that. Very interesting.

So anyway, they gave it to Ripple. Ripple rebranded it to Ripples. And then in 2014, the IMF came out with a paper where they talked about an exchange rate peg and they gave it the abbreviation XRP. Almost immediately after that, Ripple rebranded Ripples to XRP. And now it's a decentralized protocol. There's, you know, almost 300 validators on the network. Ripple controls 3 of those. So they are not the centralized source. There's a lot of people that are like, oh, Ripple controls it. It's not. You know, there's banks, there's universities, there's governments. The SEC runs a validator on the XRPL. There's tons of entities. Very cool. America.

So I did not know that. So it's only 300. And the validator— walk me through how their blockchain functions. Is it— is it no— like, is it only 300 then that process and they have processing power? Is that— is that different than their Their blockchain.

Yeah. So, you're probably familiar with Bitcoin. Most people would be, right? So, you have proof of work there. People are incentivized to solve a hard math problem at the end of the hash or the block. And whoever solves it first with their computing power gets the reward, right? And those rewards get cut in half about every 4 years or 220,000 blocks. There is no monetary incentive to verify transactions on the XRPL. They use a Byzantine fault tolerance, and it's a much faster form of consensus than you would have with proof of work or proof of stake. They do up to 15,000— sorry, 1,500 transactions per second on the XRPL, and validators just verify transactions. It's not Like you get rewards for doing that. People do it so that they can trust the network. And anybody can spin up a validator on the XRPL. It's a public, decentralized, open-source network. And yeah, that's the computing power that it has and the TPS. I see.

Okay. And you said Ripple Labs only owns— has 3 of the 300.

That's correct.

And they've just selected groups to be a part of it. Is that what's happened?

Yes. I mean, they've gone out to counterparties. They've set up a lot of partnerships with people, and those individuals or corporations or institutions want to be able to validate the transactions on the network so that they can trust it. Yeah, right.

I see.

Super expensive to set up a node or validator on the network. They also have set up a governance system in there, so they'll propose amendments. There are 35 current validators that everybody trusts to vote on those amendments. They have to reach at least 80% consensus across those validators for an amendment to go live. And then it has to stay that way for 2 weeks while they troubleshoot it before it's pushed to the mainnet and everybody's up to snuff and using the new amendment.

Okay, interesting. And sorry, there's 300 main ones or like 300 total? Because you said anybody can launch one. 300 seems small, I guess.

Yeah, at the current time, I believe there's around 300. It might be more than that now. There's only 5.8 million wallets for XRP globally at this point. So it's not like it's had huge market penetration. There is a high concentration of those that hold large amounts of XRP at the top of those wallets. You can go check out rich-list.info. It's rich-list.info. And it gives you the full breakdown of all of the XRP wallets and the statistics around them. But yeah, mainly for institutions and enterprises and Ripple partners and other people that are developing on the network or currently who run a validator. Yeah. So that shows you the total number of wallets, you know, what percentage you have to hold of XRP to be in what percentage of the wallets.

Yeah.

On average, breaks down a lot of good stuff there for people. You've seen a large uptick. So actually up to 6 million wallets now total. I've been here since there was 2.5 million wallets back in 2020.

That brings us, you know, okay, I don't know where you're at, 2014, 2016, something like that. Keep telling us the story of Ripple.

Yeah. So, they're going along, they're setting up these strategic partnerships. They went to the Fed in 2014 with Greg Kidd. He was one of the first 10 employees there at Ripple. Talked to them. They met with the IMF in 2017. And again, you know, they have this, I don't know if you want to call it good or bad, but they're the banker's coin. Like that's been the deal. It's kind of been in opposition to a lot of the freedom and decentralized nature of a lot of this progression with this technology for Bitcoin and these other networks. And I don't think it's in opposition. I just think that, you know, these banks and institutions and enterprises want a trusted source that they can work with. So over the last 12 years, that's really what Ripple has championed is utilizing the XRPL in that capacity and building out those relationships. And so we'll go to the lawsuit, I guess. In 2020, the SEC brought a lawsuit. Jay Clayton on his last day brought a lawsuit against Ripple stating that XRP was a security and that, you know, that they had sold it and that Brad Garlinghouse and Chris Larsen were involved with that and that they had committed securities fraud, right?

Yeah.

Anyway, through the case, Ripple spent almost $400 million fighting the SEC at this point over the last 4 years. July 13th, 2023, the judge stated in and of itself, XRP is not a security here in the US. So it's the only other asset besides Bitcoin that has any type of legal clarity are standing here in the US that it's not a security. And we're hopeful with the new administration that, you know, the SEC did appeal the final ruling that was issued by the judge. And so they're going back and forth on that. But hopefully that'll be resolved here in the short term and then Ripple will be able to participate in the means that they want to here in the US.

Well, yeah, the rumors are the next— I mean, as soon as the next couple of weeks, this will be dropped by the new SEC, which is interesting. They also— so my dad wrote a book called Dollars, Gold, and Bitcoin. I've shared this on my show before. In there, he talked— I think he talks about the XRP case, how XRP— and you tell me more— but is a direct threat to the US SWIFT system. This— in the current US SWIFT system is, if I'm in Germany and you're in the United States and I need to send you $20,000, I've got to— I can't just send it to you. I have to go use the New York Fed SWIFT system. I've got to change my euros into dollars or whatever coin I'm using back to rubles or whatever currency I am. And that is what creates demand for dollars. So even if I'm in Brazil and you're in India, and those are now 2 BRICS nations that are trying to get off of this, but historically, I— and even if they didn't want to, you would have to use US dollars for that exchange. This created demand for our currency as the world reserve, even if they want— and that's why a lot of BRICS nations are like, we don't want to do this, we're trying to get off of it. And XRP gave an amazing solution, is you could send $1 million instantly for a few pennies across the world, and you don't have to spend 5 days with a 6% international wire fail rate for XRP. And then the allege is the SEC knew this and said, well, what we're gonna do is tie them down in litigation. We don't have much of a case here, but if we can just bog down this system, we can continue to print lots of dollars, spread dollars throughout the world, and our currency remains strong. And they've done this not with just XRP, with a bunch of other companies and regulatory capture that's happened. across the globe. That is obviously looking to change right now. And that's the kind of the, at least the picture that's been painted to me. Would you agree with that? What would you add to that?

100%. Yeah. Cross-border payments is the main use case and how this works at scale to get adopted. SWIFT processes about $5 trillion a day in current volume. That is all denominated in US dollars. So, it does circumvent the US dollar as the global standard for liquidity. Which at this point, I know, like, my dad passed away a couple years ago, and prior— previous to his death, I would talk to him about, you know, the US dollar would no longer be used in that capacity. And he just couldn't see that his whole lifetime. Like, he was like, look, like, this is how it's been. People have been talking about that for 50 years. It's never happened. Not worried about it. But I would think at this point, you and many other intelligent people that I speak with on a regular basis, they see that coming. We've seen the BRICS nations, like you mentioned, that the rest of the world is looking to get off the dollar standard, and there needs to be a solution that is a level playing field. Where I would prefer if China and Russia were no longer or didn't become the next reserve currency, that there was a standard even way that everybody could operate and compete against one another, and whoever's doing better should do better. You shouldn't be able to Well, sanctioning a country and cutting them out of the global supply chain causes some issues, right?

Are you a dollar's dead, we're moving away from the dollar kind of person? Where do you land on that?

Yeah, I don't think the dollar's dead at all. We're back at the 110 on the DXY. I think you're in for some volatility here in the short term. I think they'll be able to shore the dollar up. I do think that they'll back it with gold. Judy Sheldon has proposed a 50-year gold bond on the 250-year anniversary of the US, you know, July 4th, 2026, I think is when she wants to list that. And she's, you know, worked with Trump and I think that'll happen. And we do have the gold. We've got enough gold to shore things up. It still sits at like $42 an ounce on the Fed's balance sheet, which is crazy. But yeah, I don't think the US dollar is going anywhere. I think every country globally will issue a CBDC.

Sorry, wait, you said it sits at $42 on the Fed's balance sheet?

Yeah.

Why don't they market to market?

So, that's what it was in 1971 when Nixon closed the gold window. And they've just left it at that value on their balance sheet since then.

Interesting. So, in reality, our balance sheet is much, much, much bigger.

Yes. Yeah.

Interesting. Okay. I didn't know that.

And they've accumulated a lot of gold since then also. It's not like Russia and China have been the only ones accumulating gold over the past 4 years since it was designated— It's now a tier 1 asset by the BIS since 2019. Well, I guess it's been, uh, 6 years now. Um, well, I agree with you.

The, the— and we say this in our book, The Dollar, Gold, and Bitcoin— of the, the number 1 export of the United States is dollars. We export dollars, and that's the number 1 job. And Trump knows this. Everyone knows this in the government. Like, protecting the dollar is bar none very important to everything. That's why we have 11 Aircraft carriers. That's why we have the largest navy on Earth, the largest military. It's to protect the U.S. dollar. And so, I personally, I and BRICS nations are trying to fight against. They want to get off it, and they can't. We and then if and now with Trump's strong fist, oh, you don't use dollars? Great. We'll put a tariff on your country for 300%. You're going to want to use dollars right now. The evolution of the dollar, though, to your point, do you see a world where And maybe this is the path they're going. We're kind of, we're gonna speculate for a second here, but the interest Trump has in crypto, they've just created a bunch of new wallets, they're doing all this stuff. Is the path headed towards a digital dollar? Is a US stablecoin or taking over or buying a company like XRP and saying, you know what, this is gonna be the new, the standard for, and we're just gonna call it dollars, the US dollar, but now it's just backed by blockchain and these new payment rails. We're getting rid of the old SWIFT system. Everything will feel and look the same way, besides the backend will just function 10 times more efficiently. Do you see a world like that? Where do you think we're going?

Yeah. So, I don't think we'll have a CBDC here in the US. I think you'll have privatized stablecoins that'll be issued by enterprises and banks alike, and they'll be required to hold dollars or dollar-denominated assets. And that's currently the stablecoin bill that sits on the floor to be passed here in the first quarter of 2025. I think other nations will issue a CBDC, people that are more communistic or want control of their population. But I think it'll kind of be like credit cards or report rewards points here. Like depending on which stablecoin you're holding, you'll get certain incentives and benefits. You know, if you work with Bank of America or Goldman or Chase, it won't matter. It's still dollars is the backing, but you'll get certain perks for working with them. Swift, I think, is just going to adopt one of these networks, and, and they really only have 2 options. So they can work with RippleNet, which we've talked about kind of at length here. The other option that they have is R3. So R3 has a blockchain called Corda, and inside that infrastructure, they don't have a native token. They actually worked with Ripple early on and were given an allotment of XRP to be able to facilitate that for them. They ended up settling in a lawsuit for like a billion XRP back in 2015. And that's actually about the time that FinCEN also came out and said that XRP is a currency, not anything else here in the US. So yeah, I think that SWIFT will work with either one of those 2 entities in order to facilitate their capital flows. And it doesn't matter which one it is, it ends up being XRP. Uh, that settles those transactions.

So you think all roads lead to XRP?

Not all roads, but as far as like high-value payments in that application for cross-border.

Um, but why not just use like— couldn't they just use USDC or Tether? Like, why not just use that? Like, you just— hey, we're adopting, or we're going to call it USDQ, and it's just the US dollars version of that. Why not use one of those stablecoins already?

Right. So Depends on if they want to accept that same currency on the other side, because then there's counterparty risk. So, whoever issued that stablecoin, you have to trust that they actually have backing that supports it. And after '08, banks and nations alike don't really trust counterparties anymore. They trust themselves. They can audit their own books. So, they'll issue their own stablecoin. And let's say, again, to your point, maybe they want yen on the other side of the transaction. One of these BRICS nations wants their currency on the other side of the transaction. You need a neutral bridge asset that has a DEX built in that allows that change from whatever you're paying in to whatever they want to receive on the other side. And they're all running validators on the network, so they can trust that there's no counterparty risk. They just have to trust the protocol.

Interesting. So, one prediction I've made, I think 2025 will be the year of stablecoins. I think stablecoins are going to— and Ripple just announced a stablecoin. launch theirs, the amount of forex trade, I think, will flow to stablecoins, and the market will find their favorite one and what works the best, and maybe the US will launch one or whatever, but this is a massive year for stablecoins, I think.

Huge.

And stablecoins, in my opinion, is the gateway drug into crypto, 'cause when you start, like, the first coin I ever bought was USDC, 'cause I was onboarding, I was like, and this is in 2017, I was like, what's this crypto thing? I guess I'll just hold USDC for now. And that's what most people do. And then I like sent someone USDC and they sent me some USDC. I'm like, oh, this is just like Venmo, this is just like PayPal, this is pretty simple. And then I was like, well, maybe I'll buy some Litecoin or I'll buy some, you know, I've started to buy these other coins, right? It's just this gateway drug 'cause it's, you're like, oh, it works, it's efficient, I have a wallet, I can log in, I see it, it's awesome. It's a pretty, ah man, it's an interesting future that we're heading into for the digital assets of money.

Yeah, so the concern I have, and I think you and I talked about this before, was Tether, right?

Yeah, so give me your— you painted a picture, and I'll paint this up for everybody, on Tether. And I asked you about Tether, like, oh man, it goes back to 20— I can't remember, 2017, '18. You think there's a lot of conspiracy around Tether. Tether currently, we don't know their backend. Like, you're supposed to with a stablecoin. I put a dollar in, and they hold a dollar in their bank account. Which theoretically, that's what USDC does. So USDC, you put a dollar in, they're supposed to just hold a dollar on their balance sheet. Tether is algorithmic-based, which means whatever they want it to be. And so we, like in our fund, we've stayed away from Tether for that reason. We don't— I don't know what their market cap is. Let's call it, I don't know, $10 billion they have. They could only have $2 or $3 billion and they take the other $7 billion and they go do whatever they want with it. That's the scare of Tether. But I'd love to hear. So, I'm painting this picture. Give us the backstory of Tether, what you think it is, and what's going on.

Yeah. So, they're currently closer to like $130 billion in current market cap. They're the largest stablecoin by far in comparison to anything else. And it's the liquidity that all the exchanges that people use to purchase cryptocurrency use. And the way that they got started, they would mint the the tether out of thin air, and then they would buy Bitcoin with it, and they would back the tether that they printed with the Bitcoin that they bought. So this is a great mechanism, uh, it's kind of a positive feedback loop for Bitcoin's price to continue higher, right? Because if you've got somebody purchasing it on the open market and then backing something with it, the more they stack there, the higher the— and it's locked up too, right? It's supply and demand. So Over time, that's— there's been a direct correlation. Correlation doesn't equal causation every single time, but just interesting to look at. Every time they've minted more Tether, Bitcoin's price goes up. Every time there's been a larger market cap for Tether, same thing for Bitcoin. So with that, you know, I don't know what would happen if there was an unwinding of Tether, but I do think that there's a possibility for that here in 2025. If stablecoin regulations are passed, Tether has disclosed that a portion of their balance sheet at this point is Bitcoin, still around 3 to 5%. In that stablecoin bill, it's required that it's dollar-denominated assets, period. They've also in the last week offshored their corporation to El Salvador, removed themselves from the US. So They've also allowed for transactions to happen in Iran, Iraq, and over there with Russia on their blockchain, circumventing sanctions in a dollar-denominated asset. So this gives the US government reason to potentially sanction them. But there's also a reason they might not. And the reason they might not is they are the 5th or 6th largest holder of US dollar-denominated debt. are treasuries. So as these countries overseas have divested from dollars, the Fed hasn't been buying them, the Treasury hasn't been buying them, it's been Tether. And so around 2017 is when that started. And I think it's a possibility. I don't have, you know, specific evidence of this, but I think it's a large coincidence and they could be used, being used as a proxy for the Fed to purchase those treasuries. And when the time's right, they will cut that off and then allow for all of these other large corporations and institutions to soak up that international debt when the time's right for them to back their stablecoins. And you would also want to foster Google and Twitter and all these other people that would issue— like, you got Apple Pay and Google Pay on your phone, right? They're going to issue a stablecoin. And if you wanted to remove the biggest friction or player in that market very quickly so that they could move in, makes sense that they would knock them out at the same time.

Interesting. So, to clarify, though, and double-click on this for me, and we talked about this earlier, you think Tether is an arm of the Federal Reserve? Just like BlackRock is an arm of the Federal Reserve, you think Tether is the same way?

I think they've used it in that manner. And I think they may get rid of it when they want to, but yeah. Very similar to BlackRock being the pseudo-Fed to allow them to purchase stocks and do things there and inject liquidity into the economy. I think that they've been using Tether in a similar capacity.

Interesting. But if they were doing that, what would be the plan for them to circumvent, go to Iran, Russia, if they are the Fed? Because they still want them to use that, or would that be a counterargument, or what do you think about that?

All that's on-chain. And so now you have all of those transactions between counterparties that you wanted to track and understand what their movement for capital was. Now you've got full visibility of all that. It's kind of like, uh, WhatsApp or Telegram or these other like messaging apps that said that they were secure messaging apps, but really they've got a backdoor. for government agencies to review stuff. I think it's very similar.

Very interesting, huh? Could they then, if it is Fed-backed, could the US government come out next year and say, hey, we've been doing this all along, this is the new US dollar, or we're going to give a blessing on Tether and shore up Tether versus not divest it? They would shore it up and say, yeah, Tether is backed by the Fed. This is what we're going to use for stablecoins. We're going to replace the SWIFT system, just use Tether. Would that not be a probable route?

You could. But again, you mentioned the BRICS nations earlier. They're going to move away from anything that allows sanctions. And if we have stablecoin regulation here in the US and we're able to cut people out of a system, they're not going to want to participate in it. They've already got CHIPS, which is secondary to SWIFT. They'll just move over and start using that. So there needs to be something that allows for interoperability between that and people to play. And that's why I think XRP sits in the position that it does. So anyway, I don't know what the implications are. I don't know what the long-term outlook for Tether is, if it's used long-term or if they just cut it off at the knees. But I do think they are going to sanction it. And I think they're going to use that as a way to freeze liquidity across exchanges for crypto. cause a big volatile movement in Bitcoin, um, and potentially, you know, push a lot of that liquidity into XRP when the time comes.

Interesting. You mentioned something about backdoors. One of my— the coolest things I think about crypto and, and Bitcoin specifically, and that's why people think it's from the NSA or whatever, the whoever Satoshi and the founders of Bitcoin— there are, correct me if I'm wrong, I believe there are 6 randomizers back in the— I think it was 2008 when they were building this. 6 randomizers approved by the NSA that said these were not hacked, these are good randomizers. Like, you can use these as part of your code.

Yeah.

Bitcoin didn't use one. They used a different one outside of that. And then years later, it was discovered the NSA had put backdoors into all 6 of those randomizers that they use in code for different code processes. And Bitcoin didn't use one. that had a backdoor, which I think is one of the coolest things about Bitcoin, that little story. And that's why people think, who started Bitcoin? Who was it? Was it the government? Or like, how would you know? How would you know there's a backdoor? And we don't know the answer to that question, but I think it's just a testament to how strong— and just, I mean, Bitcoin by itself, and that's a lot of people's first entry into crypto, is Bitcoin—

Mm-hmm.

Is just such an incredible thing, and how it's lasted. Now you have amazing projects like XRP. We talked about Tether, Solana. I mean, down the list of Ethereum, they all solve different problems and work in different ways. It's, uh, it's pretty cool. It's a pretty cool industry to be in.

Yeah, I, I think the next 10 years is just going to be an explosion, uh, for the use of this technology and adoption and price appreciation. Yeah, for a lot of these assets that you just mentioned.

So walk me through— I want to come back to your wealth management firm. Yeah, you obviously, and I'm in the same boat, so I want to hear. We've been, uh, we've ran our fund since 2022, June. during the last cycle crash, and, you know, crypto's been historically 4-year cycles. It's very interesting talking, for us, family offices, wealth managers, to— I mean, most people I talk to, this is a scam. This is— I don't get it. What's the utility? A guy last night I was talking to, multi-hundred million dollar, centimillionaire, he goes, we're 14 years in, why don't I— why am I not buying ice cream with Bitcoin right now? I don't get it. I don't get the use case. And I, I sat down and, well, let me tell you a few things, uh, but I'm curious, how do you approach a family office or a big group and that are adversarial to this technology, that think it's a scam? They probably haven't studied it much. They're, I don't know if I like it. People get ripped off. It's a— it's— I don't see the value. Why don't we just keep around things? What do you— where do you start? Give me your psychology. How do you work with that person?

So I normally give— I try to create corollaries between things they do understand and then kind of Explain this in terms that make sense. So most, most people in that position have been around a while, done pretty well for themselves, maybe were a little bit older in age. And so they went through the internet boom in the late, you know, the late 1990s, the early 2000s, and they saw the tulip bubble and the crash and then what's kind of come since then. And so I look at it like email. You know, there's a A video of a newscaster and he talks about the sign and he's like, what is this email thing? Well, originally when the internet set up, it was the intranet, okay, before the internet. And back in the day, if I had an AOL email address and you had a Yahoo, I couldn't email you, right? And that's kind of how payment apps are set up today. If you've got Venmo and I've got PayPal, even though they're owned by the same company, I can't send my money from PayPal to your Venmo account. And so it's the connection of those different payment processors like that, just like email was back in the day, where now you can send, you know, if I have AOL and you have Yahoo, I can send you a message, no problem. And I also look at like the adoption of that. So back in the day, there probably weren't that many emails sent. A lot of people still sent letters and other stuff. I don't know how many emails you get today, but I'm like at like 300+ every single day. And I'm sure there are people that get more than that. So you can imagine the volume over time when it became a lot less friction to send data and people just use it more. So it's the same way with money, right? Imagine you could send a dollar payment or $10 payment and you didn't have to pay the wire fee or the other costs for the bank associated with that. That's what this technology does at scale. And so, that's normally what I present people with. I talk about either the payment apps that they use today, PayPal, Venmo, Cash App. I talk about the friction that the banks have. And then I talk about email and them living through the dot-com boom and why even if you don't necessarily understand all this stuff, it probably makes sense to have some allocation in your portfolio Because it's an asymmetric bet. So let's, you know, most large family offices I speak with, I'm like, if even if it's just, you know, half a percent of your portfolio and it's in credible top 10 projects, maybe even diversify across those. Some of these are going to have 10, 20, 50x returns over the next 5 to 10 years. We've already seen that in the past. And so if you have those type of returns for even half a percent of your portfolio, if you're wrong, Lost half a percent of your portfolio. If you're right, you might double your net worth over the next 5 years with a half a percent allocation. And so that's the normal conversation I have with people. And some people are still apprehensive. They want regulation in place. Most people that have come into a lot of wealth through their business or other investments they've made, they're maintaining their wealth, right? They're not looking for to knock it out of the park. They're looking for 8% to 12% a year to make sure that they are maintaining against inflation and getting some real ROI on their money, which I completely understand. But I think there's a small place at the current time for digital assets in most people's portfolio.

It's so funny too. We talk to guys all the time and it's just funny, this whole game, because we'll convince— we actually do very similar. We'll talk about the internet, the adoption of the internet. I like the email analogy.

That was great.

We'll talk about real estate as an analogy as well. Real estate, we do a great job with analogy on crypto and how it works together and real-world use case. We talk about Avalanche and, you know, car titles. We use like a MasterCard moving 3 billion cards to this. But it's just funny, we will have, you know, we convince the one person, but then the 3— the lawyer comes in and the accountant comes in, then the wealth manager comes in. Well, no, I don't like— I don't like this because my buddy lost 50 grand 6 months ago and And it's so funny just how many decision makers you have to get. But the other side of that, which is so interesting, and I was this way, I was apprehensive to this technology. But the moment I started to, I kind of tried it out, and then I researched it, and then I researched it some more, and then it was like, I'm putting my whole life into this.

Yeah.

And it's funny how a lot of people move like that. You've even seen Jack Dorsey or Michael Saylor. He was— he's like, I was the perfect example. I was an adversary to crypto in 2017, '18, and then I think it was 2020 they started buying and then a little bit more. And then he's like, I'm the biggest Bitcoin maximalist on planet Earth 3 years later. And you see that adoption relatively quickly with people and it's just such a 180 flip. And I think this cycle with Trump, with stablecoins, with new payment rails and guidelines could convert? And it's almost like a conversion. It feels like they're converting to like a religion almost. Like, it's like, it's like that big of a transformation that people have might happen in the next 12 to 18 months.

Yeah, well, and again, a lot of people just want assurances around stuff, which is understandable. But I would argue if you have complete assurance around something, the asymmetric bet that exists there is probably not there anymore. When your grandma understands it and wants to use it, probably late to the game. She's in the late adopters, right? And the alpha's there when you're when you're there early, and you're going to lose some too, right? Like that's that's part of the risk that you're getting with the reward that's potentially there. So a lot of people borrowed a bunch of yen over the last twenty years at very low interest rates and put that to work here in our markets and then also in treasuries. And if You know, they continue to raise interest rates there in Japan. We saw this start to unwind, uh, back in August of last year. There was a 13% drawdown in stocks in almost a single day.

This was August 5th, right?

Somewhere around there.

And they were calling it the Black Monday because of this reverse yen carry. This is Japan, and everyone was rolling out of this. To what tune? How many billions is in there?

There's, there's tens of trillions.

Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah.

That have been borrowed in yen over the last 20 years and then put to work in our capital markets and treasuries. And so at scale, people will be rushing to pay back those loans because they're variable rate loans. And as the rates rise there in Japan and we're lowering interest rates, the spread that people have to make money has been like 5% or 6% over the last couple decades, but now they're getting squeezed. And you've got fees to liquidate your position, fees to convert from dollars back to yen, and then fees to pay back the loan.

Right.

And so I think there's going to be a run for the door moment. And when that happens, there's going to be a huge dumping of US Treasuries onto the market. And that's when I think they'll roll out the red carpet here with stablecoins.

So, you think it'll happen because of an event? There will be an event, a liquidation of Treasuries, yen carry trade, and they'll say, we have to do something different. And people will be calling for that. And that's where you think the catalyst will be?

I do. Yeah. I think that's the first domino in the progression of things that are going to happen that'll lead to XRP moving You know, 100x from where it sits today.

So walk me through this. XRP, you see guys online like, XRP's gonna be $1,000 a coin or $10,000 a coin. Currently the market cap is $187 billion. I mean, it's, at least the math I'm looking at, it's not mathin', right? Like, you'd have to be the entire world economy to like hit something like that. What's a price target for you though on XRP? A reasonable price target. Currently, yeah, $187 billion market cap, $3.26 as of today. Do you see it moving with a yen carry trade to a trillion-dollar market cap and beyond, or what do you think?

Yeah, easily. And so, you talked about market cap. I think market cap is completely applicable to corporate companies that are being traded on the stock market. There's liquid shares there. You're looking at outstanding shares versus what they're trading at. And there's a deep order book, right? I think that they're going to be— there's going to be a different metric by which people value digital assets. And I think it's going to come down to liquidity of the asset because the market caps of these things are going to look ridiculous. I mean, Bitcoin's already larger than, you know, all of the investment banks combined, right? And I think that'll continue to happen over time. The total market cap for all of crypto is still less than $5 trillion. Which is a nat. And so you have to think about also, right, they're going to tokenize securities, they're going to tokenize real estate, they're going to tokenize all this value on these networks, and that's going to cause the appreciation. So crypto will literally eat the world over the next decade, in my opinion. So with that, yeah, the market cap is going to look ridiculous at the price point that I'm going to tell you. It's going to be hard for people to comprehend, but again, I would challenge people to think about it in a liquidity provision rather than the market cap of the asset because it's not going to compute. So in order to facilitate the payment flows for SWIFT, if you just did supply and demand, okay, so there's about 50 billion XRP that's currently available on the market. There's 50 billion or 48-something left in the escrow that Ripple holds. Not all of that XRP is going to be used for moving SWIFT transactions, but let's, let's say that it was. Okay, you got $5 trillion a day moving over that network. Uh, you've got 50 billion XRP, uh, to be able to facilitate those flows. You'd need $100 XRP to be able to settle that transaction just at that volume for that supply and demand, which again causes a crazy market cap when you look at it. But again, I'm looking at it at payment flows. You've also got the FX market, which does about $6.5 trillion a day in total volume. The back end of the stock market, very similar, about 100,000 transactions, close to $7 trillion a day in total volume. So, as these different markets move on-chain and those transactions are at scale and being settled through a digital asset, You have to have enough liquidity in that asset to be able to provide liquidity in those ecosystems. So if, if you had a progression, you know, where the, uh, the reverse carry trade unwinds, uh, treasuries get dumped on the market, stablecoin regs come in, uh, there's actually a provision in that bill that, that states, you know, what a bridge currency is. Uh, XRP meets that standard there in that bill. And you've got some problems with Tether that potentially happen either through sanctions or because the debt market's unstable. You've got Bitcoin that has a huge drawdown, which we haven't seen since the ETFs have been launched. There hasn't been a 30% or 40% pullback like we've seen in the past, which has happened in every bull market. But because of the volume on the ETFs, that's kind of truncated that this cycle.

I've seen it though in Ethereum though.

Yes.

Ethereum has moved a lot. Oh yeah.

I've been volatile there.

Um, let me ask you this though on XRP. The— here's a counterargument. XRP is so efficient, so liquid, uh, it can dump just as fast as it goes up. And, and you wouldn't want it that high if there's that much volume. And for market cap, you say, well, I'll just— I'll, I'll hold my coins in Bitcoin or just a USDC. But if I want to transact, I'll use XRP for 3 minutes, transact, then I'll put it back to USDC, right? So you'd have lots of volume, but not lots of growth in a price at, you know, to $100 or $300 a coin or $1,000 a coin. What do you say to that?

You have sustained volume over the day. So, um, it's not like that amount just drops off. Like, you might have fluctuations across the day, but there's still going to be however many transactions happening per second over that period of time, if it's being used in that use case. So, there'll be a price floor for it. You may have large spikes depending on how much volume is moving over the network at any given time, but there'll be some standard across the day for whatever market it's being used in, where it sets a bottom for it. And as they continue to add value and move transactions on the network, that floor will increase over time.

But, and then, and just help me out here, wouldn't Tether's stablecoin, though, kind of undermine that? Wouldn't everyone just use the stablecoin? Like, if you're actually talking about volume moving swift, wouldn't you just use Tether's— or not Tether, excuse me, uh, Ripple's stablecoin? It's like similar, like, you know, the SWIFT system. They do 6— what'd you say, $6 billion a day or $6 trillion a day?

Yeah, $5 trillion a day.

$5 trillion a day. It's not like the dollar price just goes like crazy because we're doing $5 trillion a day. It's just we're just moving that much money. It's just the payment rails for that. Um, would you not see the same thing with Ripple's just stablecoin?

You'd have to have a counterparty that you trusted with that. And that's not that I don't trust Ripple. They don't have enough liquidity. Their total market cap for their company is, I think they're at like a $30 billion market cap for their company. They've got about $1.2 billion in liquid cash on their balance sheet that they could buy treasuries with to issue that. And you could have people buy the token.

But wouldn't it melt up? It would melt up just like Tether did, just like USDC did, right? They'd add to their treasury, it'd compound, they'd put some in, they'd earn some yield or some fees on that. And wouldn't that be the same case? And so, you would just use a stablecoin rather than using XRP.

Again, as long as the counterparty wanted to accept that currency, then that's fine. So, between the US and Europe, probably fine. You may not capture all of that market, but especially if you wanted to send money to Turkey or a third world country where their currency's inflating, you don't want to hold that counterparty's currency. There's about $27 trillion locked up in nostro vostro accounts right now, which banks also want back so that they can do other stuff with. Right. So it unlocks all that capital would be the other benefit of using this versus that.

But wouldn't an exchange solve that problem? Like currently, like Coinbase or whoever, that's kind of how you off-ramp, right? You off-ramp through an exchange.

Yeah, there's fees associated with that. So, there's a difference.

But that's the same for XRP, isn't it? Like, if I sent $1 million of XRP, I'd still use an exchange to off-ramp it to my bank account. Is that not the case?

So, the bank would— yeah. So, the bank would convert it. So, you would sell it into XRP, send it to the other person, settles, they swap it for whatever currency they want. But the fees for doing that is almost nothing, whereas you'd have to pay Ripple. Right. They would, they would lend that money out and they would charge interest on it to be able to settle those transactions. Or you'd issue your own stablecoin, but then the counterparty that you're sending it to probably doesn't want your stablecoin. They want their own. Right. So that's, that's where you need an intermediary bridge asset to swap and a decentralized exchange to be able to convert those assets. Yeah. Okay.

So, well, you're going to have to convert on either one is what I'm trying to get to.

Yeah.

You're going to have to convert either way. And I guess what I'm— the point I'm asking is, wouldn't you just rather convert in a stablecoin rather than a pretty volatile asset class like XRP? If I'm sending $1 billion and I'm the CFO of Apple Computer, I'm going to use a stablecoin, not XRP that might crash or go up or down in the next 24 hours if I need to send that back to the United States. Am I thinking that the wrong way?

Well, so it's a good point, and you normally would You're right. If you work with Chase or Wells Fargo or Bank of America, all of them have migrated you to a digital wallet for your bank account. And so they've already integrated a lot of this technology. Our chief operating officer was head of that division at PNC when they went through that transition. So all of this is in place. And to your point, you may— You may mention this earlier. It's not even going to feel any different for the consumer. You're just going to send money and it's going to show up on the other side with no issues, which is going to be great for people. And it's going to cost them less money to move capital, which is also awesome.

So, you're saying, but is it only in the private bank or do I got to request? Like right now, could I go? I don't know. What do I do? I'm a Wells Fargo user. Would I go to ask Wells Fargo, hey, where's my wallet? Can I send $100 grand across the ocean in a blink of an eye.

Like, when, when they move over to this system, you'll know. So Fedwire and, um, what's the other one? FedNow?

Yeah, FedNow.

Yeah. All— both of those will be directly interoperable.

Uh, but it's not— so like, it's not happened yet? Because I've seen FedNow, I've watched, I just haven't seen it happen yet. And is that what you're saying? It's coming soon? Is that what you're saying?

Yeah. So when, when they move over, and there'll be some type of like— banks will have a outage, or not an outage, but like an updating of software. And then on the other side of that, it'll, it'll be interoperable and it'll go and won't be— the average consumer won't even know that it happened. They'll just know that there's less fees and things settle faster.

Yeah, very cool. Well, that's Bank of America CEO, back to that. Maybe that's what he's referencing then. He's like, we're ready to adopt crypto transactions as whenever the regulators are, which is to that point, because I, I studied FedNow for a long time and it felt like it died, or there wasn't just— there wasn't any news on it. Like, this is back, what was it, 2022, '23? FedNow was taking a lot, and we were like, oh, it's coming, and then nothing, nothing happened. So maybe here in the next quarter or 2 that might change. Interesting.

Yeah, I'm, I'm confident that when you see they need regulation around this stuff, and then, you know, back to the, the taxes that Trump's proposed on these digital assets, if There's no taxes. Even if there is volatility between when it's sent, when it settles, it's not going to be— it's going to be minuscule, but you don't want to have to rack up all of those and have to pay taxes if there's a gain or loss on the other side of that transaction. So, I think that it makes a lot of sense for him to put that into action here in the US.

Yeah, interesting. And that's how you get back to the— okay, so the XRP market cap doesn't matter as much as far as volume and usage, as far as liquidity that's used for those transactions. And that's where you're getting to. Yeah, we actually could see a few hundred dollar XRP. Uh, very— that's how you drive that number. I get it. Yeah.

And then you got the ETFs, right? So we've got 4 ETFs that have been, you know, put forth by 21Shares and Canary Capital. Uh, I think Bitwise. And then, um, there's one more that has their trust. Um, and so there was a short, uh, spike in XRP back in 2023 in November when there was a trust, an iShares trust filed in Delaware by BlackRock for an XRP ETF. Uh, somebody found it on the website and put it out, and it— there was a price spike. And then Bloomberg came out and said that it was fake and the DOJ was investigating it, and then you kind of swept it under the rug and nothing ever happened after that. But, um, I think when, when BlackRock throws their head in the ring Um, or their hat in the ring, that's when you're gonna see a big, big move on XRP. And their, um, their, their head of digital assets there is Robbie Michnik, uh, which I don't know if you've spoken with him before or not, but, uh, he, he came from Ripple.

Oh, really? Oh, wow.

Before, yeah, moved into that position. And he actually took that off his LinkedIn about a year ago.

Oh, wow.

So interesting.

Interesting. Well, overall, it's an exciting time to be alive. I am very bullish for America, for North America, for crypto. You're convincing me more and more on XRP. We have a decent position in our fund of XRP, but it's one of our positions, you know, just like anything else. I think we have a decent size, and personally, I have a decent amount of Ripple, but maybe you could call yourselves a Ripple maximalist. Over there almost, which I can tell why. I can tell why.

Yeah, I, I would say I spent a lot of time on it, right? I spent about a year and a half trying to figure out how I was wrong on why this wouldn't happen. Like, I'm the guy that's gonna see this and figure it out, right? Like, get out of here. Um, but I just spent a lot of time and, and the more I tried to poke holes in it, the more conviction I ended up with it. And I'm really here for ROI. I missed Bitcoin, right? I'm a little jelly of the Bitcoin guys that were here early on. And so I think everybody else, you know, if you're coming in now, and nothing here is financial advice, you know, Bridger and I are very specific about that. But I think there's a lot of opportunity for upside in that asset in particular. And I haven't found another one that I feel has the same type of upside. Otherwise, I'd be all in on that. Yeah.

Yep. Well, I love it, Jake. Thanks for coming on today. How do people get in touch with you or follow you or what? What's the best way to find you?

Yeah, absolutely. Appreciate you having me. Uh, if people want to reach out, um, you can just email, you know, info@digitalfamilyoffice.io. Uh, you can go check out the website there for all the services that we provide. Uh, and you can follow me under my moniker on Twitter and Instagram and everywhere else as Beyond_Broke. Uh, that's my moniker on both those platforms.

Okay, Beyond Broke. I like it. Jake, fun being on. We'll have to do this again. Uh, thank you very much, man.

Absolutely, brother. Thank you.