#H2HChat How to Create Content That People Want to Share with Ann Handley, MarketingProfs

Hey, everybody. Welcome to another HGH Chat. We are so excited to be here with Ann Hanley. Thank you. I am really excited to introduce you guys to her. For those of you who don't know, but I'm almost sure that everybody does, but just in case. Ann is the head of content here at MarketingProfs, author of the Wall Street Journal bestseller Everybody Writes, which I'm excited to talk more about here today. It says in her Twitter handle she's waging the war on mediocrity in content, so I'm sure we can hear a little bit more about that. Real quick, I wanted to make sure that we let you know that this is ongoing now. It's every Monday on At noon Pacific Standard Time, and the other thing I wanted to do is make sure that we thanked our sponsors real fast. It's Cisco, Cox Communications, IBM, Influitive, Freshdesk, Hootsuite, Newstar, Mastercard, Mutual Mind, Speakeasy, so you can rest medicine. So welcome to H2H chat, and alongside this you can be tweeting at hashtag H2H chats. Suzy is on there taking your questions. The second half of this, we will be taking questions from you to Ann, so please make sure that you put all your questions up. I'm sure there's a lot of things that we can talk about here as it has to do with both writing and creating shareable content. So, hi Ann, how are you doing?

How are you, Bryan? Happy to be here.

I'm doing great, I'm doing great. Well, first of all, I finally get a chance to interview you on your book. We've been talking about this for quite some time, and I'm thankful to be sitting here talking to you about Everybody Writes and the process that you went through of writing a book about everybody writing.

That sounds so meta, doesn't it? And you just went through it, you just wrote a book, right? I'm talking to you about how everybody writes, and yet you just wrote.

So everyone on video writes right now. So one of the things that I've always liked is the way that you look at things. You kind of tend to turn them sideways and upside down, and just different ways that you look at things and how you approach them. And so I was just curious, and I think a lot of people would love to hear what your intention was. If you were standing in the middle of a bookstore and you're telling everybody about your book, what would you tell them?

What would I tell everybody about my book? You know, So Everybody Writes is a book about, as it says, writing, because I feel like In our content social world, everybody is a writer. Businesses and organizations are charged with telling their story to connect with the people they want to reach, even before any of those people speak to their sales staff. The research has been out there for a number of years now. And so as much as content has become at the heart of marketing, I think the conversation that's been missing, or at least that I felt that I was missing was the idea that writing is really the heart and the liver and the lungs and the soul of content. So that's one piece of it. The other side of it is just from a personal level. I feel like based on my conversations with lots of people that I talk to, people tend to have a— very often they have an uncomfortable relationship with writing. They don't consider themselves writers, yet I don't think of writing as something that's reserved for a chosen few who can do it incredibly well. Those people are called novelists or journalists or essayists. Instead, I think it's a basic skill that we as communicators in marketing all need to have, all businesses need to have. And so I really wanted to both empower people to up their game, to lose the idea of mediocre content, as you started off talking about, but secondly, to sort of get people excited about it and really feel empowered to create better content, to create better things, to not waste their audience's time, and to really create stuff that was a little bit inspired. So it's part how-to and also part inspiration. I pitched those the way I thought.

You know, it's interesting because there's a lot of content out there, and there's been a lot of people that have commented and written about this. There's more content than ever, obviously. What's your take on how to kind of rise to the top, how to break out of all this, as Mark Schaefer calls it, the content shock?

Content shock, yeah. Mark has a fantastic new book about content as well called The Content Code. My take on it is that good content, ridiculously good content, as I talk about Everybody writes is table stakes. I mean, I feel like you've got to be producing content as a cornerstone of your marketing, and then you know then we can talk about you know where do you go from there? You know how do you make something shareable? How do you make it ignite? But ultimately, I think really you know good content is table stakes. I think everybody has to be producing content as a cornerstone of their marketing, of telling their story, of getting the word out. You know trying to reach the So is there a lot of it? Yeah, but I mean, in my mind, that just means that it ups the game that much more. It just means that you do need to really do the best you can when it comes to creating your own content.

What do you do to— what's your process for getting an idea down on paper?

It's funny that you ask this because I'm just in the middle of writing a post about that now. My process, I use about 6 or 7 tools. I was thinking about this with every single piece of content I put out there, whether it's a blog post or a book. I mean, it's a little bit more involved when it comes to a book, but just take a basic blog post. I keep a running list of ideas in a notebook that I always have with me. It's right here. You guys can see that. This is one that I carry around with me all the time. Always in a crate beside me. And I just, if I hear something on the radio or I read something, I just sort of make a note in there. If anybody else were to read this, it looks like a grocery list for somebody who's high on crack or something like that. It makes no sense, but it makes a lot of sense to me. So that's the first step, and then from there I'll do a little bit of research on Google to see if something has legs, I'll throw some notes up on Trello to sort of schedule it. You know, when it gets to Trello, that means it's actually going to be a blog post. It's moved from Field Notes into Trello. I'll gather some research via Google and hold that in Pocket. I'm sure you know that app. And then I just start writing. I use Word to write, and when I'm putting together a post or anything, I typically start with another kind of laundry list. Or grocery list, just making some notes about my main points that I want to make, and then flesh it out from there. The most important part of my process though, I would say, is the point where I get a post done and then I walk away. I leave it for, I don't know, say a day if I can. I very rarely write and publish on the same day, because in my mind there's a sort Mm-hmm. maturation that goes on almost magically. You know, like when you buy bananas at the grocery store and they're not ripe enough yet, so you can put them in a paper bag and they'll ripen faster? You know that process? I feel like that's what I do with my content. I take any post I'm writing and I just sort of leave it on the counter for about a day or so. And then when I come back to it, I don't know whether my thinking has matured or whether something magic happens on the page, but it always feels like Like, I know exactly what the main point is, I know what the headline is, I know where I'm going. I mean, I sort of walk into it knowing the general direction, but just taking that space and going back and editing it after a day, to me, that's the biggest, it's the most important piece of anything that I publish, because there's so much that comes out after the fact that isn't there the first time. It feels very ripe, and I mean, it feels very raw.

So I noticed you didn't say Evernote. We had a conversation about that in New York and there's a little bit of an inside joke there. One day we'll have that conversation again on how to use it.

I try so hard, I try so hard to use Evernote. Everybody says to me all the time, you've got to use Evernote, it's the best thing ever, it's the best place where you can collect all— I I can't handle it. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I try and it's like the way that I felt about Swiss chard when I was a kid. My grandfather had a garden, my mom would bring it home and she would cook it and I'd be like, I still don't like it. These many years later I still don't like it. So I don't know, I just can't figure out what I'm doing wrong or why I don't like it, but it just does not work. It feels like there are 2 kinds of people in the world too. It's like people who love Evernote and people who hate Evernote. Evernote, they're like crops in that way. People love them or they hate them. Anyway, I know you use Evernote, you're

a big fan. I do, but I know that everybody— there's not one process. Everyone has a different process for everything that they do to write. Some people even co-write or co-create. So many different approaches to Getting that out right now. But, you know, my idea— I don't know, for me it's like it hits me in a store somewhere, like, or in a moment where I'm just like, whoa, that would be a really good blog. And I need something, whatever it is, just to write something down just to remember it, because I will forget.

Yeah, right. That's my issue too. It's like I'm constantly thinking of ideas, and then— but, you know, what I learned Prior to writing Everybody Writes, actually, is that I would think of it, and then that night I'd be like, what was that I was going to do? Wait, wait, wait, wait. It's gone. So that's why I started religiously just writing everything down. I just came home about half an hour ago, and I actually pulled over on the side of the road on the way here because I heard something on the radio. And I was just like, you know, that's a good idea. It was just a fragment of a quote, but I was like, that's cool. So I think training your ear to hear I love to hear that as a content creator, and just having the discipline, or at least the opportunity to write it down.

So what do you think makes content exceptional? You said it's table stakes, but what makes it stand out? What makes it better? What makes a great piece, a great article stand out right now?

Just, there's no one way to write, right? So there's no one thing that's going to make any piece of content stand out. And really what makes anything stand out is the fact that the audience loves it, right? And so what that means is it's going to be very audience-centric in its point of view. I feel like there's a lot of companies out there who know that intellectually. They know that they've got to be writing to please their customers and not their boss or their CEO or their client. But in reality, that doesn't happen as often as you would think, as is suggested. So I think ultimately the best content is what your audience wants or needs or loves. I talk about this all the time, but what would your audience thank you for? That's typically what you need to be writing. And then how you write it, I think last week I was at Emma's event, Emma the Email Company's event in Nashville. It was a fantastic event, by the way. It was their inaugural event. It was really awesome. But I was talking about tone of voice and the importance of having a point of view, using your voice as a way to tell a different kind of story. So not just what you say, but how you say it. And I think if you can hone of that tone of voice as a writer on behalf of a company, I think that's incredibly— and that's not an opportunity that I see a lot of companies taking. It's really hard to find a company that has such a strong tone of voice that if you were to cover up the logo and everything else identifying on a webpage and say, yes, I know who wrote that, that's the Holy Grail. But there's not a lot of companies that have that.

How have you seen content change and where do you think content will go?

Wow, that's a good question. You know, when CC Chapman and I wrote Content Rules 5 years ago, I thought then, wow, content is so advanced right now. CC and I joke as we were writing that book. Doesn't everybody already know all this stuff already, and isn't this obvious? But it reminds me of that old saying, what's obvious to you isn't obvious to everybody else. So I think back then the idea that content was a cornerstone of your marketing, or should be at the center of your marketing, that was a little bit radical for a lot of companies, which surprised me really when that when we wrote it, but just based on the reception and so on, it turned out to be true. So I think now we've stopped— that was a book, in other words, that talked about why content. I think we're past the why, and I think we're more into the how, which is a much more interesting place to be in, just because it really does involve really creating stuff that's pretty awesome. And that's truly where my heart is. That's what I love to talk about and what I love to do. Great. We'd love to help you do it. So I think we're definitely there. Where we're going in the future, I think some of the things we've been talking about, having companies really think about identifying that tone of voice and really pushing it that much further, telling different kinds of stories, not just the same stories that their competitors are telling. So all those kinds of things I think we're going to start to see in the next couple of years. I mean, the tools and the technology, that's always changing. It's been changing forever. That's always, I think, part of who we are as publishers. But to me, that's just a way of telling a story. I think to me, ultimately, what it really comes down to is telling that story. And it doesn't matter where you're telling it. It's just coming up with it and telling it in a way that's true to who you are.

So it's kind of interesting, because MarketingProfs is you on Twitter.

Yes.

And so I think it's funny all the time when people write or tweet to MarketingProfs and they're either tweeting to you or you fall on a list as both yourself and MarketingProfs.

Yeah, right.

It's both you. And so I guess my question there is, how do you think that would work for another organization? I mean, you've personalized, you've humanized, I should say, a brand around a person, and I love it. I think it's such a wonderful way to market, but why aren't more organizations doing that?

It's so funny because I actually have— I don't think it's such a great idea for companies to to have their personality around a single person. And I mean, I'll tell you why. Because when I first started MarketingProfs, as MarketingProfs on Twitter, I was very much under the radar. This was like 7 or 8 years ago when Twitter was such a different place and it was quieter. And I had the Twitter handle for, I don't know, about a year and a half, I think, before any of my colleagues here at MarketingProfs even noticed. And it wasn't like I was trying to pull something over on them. on anybody by any stretch. It was just that Twitter wasn't considered a significant channel for such a long period of time. It was very much in the backwater. So I went on there really as a point of experimentation, like what should I be doing on here? Should marketing profs be on here? And it's like, well, all right, I guess I'll try this out. For a long time I had the Bird logo as my avatar on there, even though I was always tweeting as So there was a little bit of tension in what are we going to do with this. And then eventually I started realizing that my personality can help grow this Twitter channel, so just as you suggested, that human piece of it really was important to it.

You said the word human, and so I have to do this.

That's awesome. But I don't know, I don't know that I would do that again. If I were starting the marketing Twitter handle right now, I don't think that it would just be me. As much as I would say that I do think that having it just me has ironically really helped grow the brand and so on, what happens if I get— I'm just about to say this— what if I get hit by a bus tomorrow? Or I don't know, what if the rest of the company suddenly votes me off the island or something like that? happens to the Twittermen. I think it's a little bit dangerous for a company to wrap it around a single personality, a single person. I think there's a way to convey that humanity without tying it to a single individual, I guess is what I'm saying. But you're right. I mean, I definitely think it has helped grow marketing costs as a Twitter presence. But I started the Ann Handley one a Yeah. A couple of years ago, mostly just as a way to squat on it, you know, just so that nobody else would take it. And here we are, you know, so many years later. And I do feel a little bit like a split personality sometimes, having the 2 personas to maintain. But, you know, for me, the way that I balance that is that, you know, in the Unhandly piece, I do share a lot of personal stuff, not incredibly personalized, but But definitely a little bit more personal than I do on the marketing side. So that's kind of the way that I manage it.

So you've had— just to shift gears just a little bit, and we've got a lot of questions coming in, so eventually I'm going to have to flip over here to give everybody a chance to ask all these. But I'm just curious, as somebody who obviously is doing— you're doing a lot. Obviously you're writing, you're thinking, you're Running a successful business, your business is in an area that's a tough one to manage with all the moving parts that you have. How do you organize yourself to be successful alongside the business? How are you structured to make it all work?

You mean balancing the books and marketing props and Yeah. Well, first of all, I have a fantastic team at MarketingProfs. MarketingProfs is not all me, despite what I think the impression is often. There's an amazing group of people. MarketingProfs is 40 people. MarketingProfs is full of people who are passionate and talented and just so awesome and amazing, just not as out there as I am. And so credit really for a lot of the success of MarketingProfs goes to my colleagues at MarketingProfs. But all the content there is under me. The way that I kind of balance it is I work a lot of hours is one thing. I work a lot of weekend downtime hours on my personal stuff. The way that I wrote Everybody Writes was Getting up early and staying up late and working a lot of weekends, you know, all day Saturday and Sunday over the course of about 3 months or so. It's exhausting, but it's something that I felt like I had to do. So I do a lot of things like that just on my own time. There's no magic to it. I wish that I had a better solution. I wish that I could say, oh, well, I use this tool that allows me to, you know, be— You know, 75% more efficient than I would be otherwise, but it's not that way at all. I mean, the truth is I always feel like I'm scattered and I always feel like I'm chasing something. But that's also, I've realized, the way that I tend to operate best. I get bored super easily, you know, and so the idea of being bored to me is just worse than being too busy. So I think I've sort of done that to myself. I've structured my life that way. And that's okay. I think a lot of our friends are very similar. I've had those conversations with lots of people. I think there is a certain kind of personality that does sort of operate at this kind of frantic pace all the time. It's just how we do it.

It's funny because you're describing a frantic pace with a lot of— I always admit that I'm ADD to anybody who asks.

Yeah.

Whether I am or not, I don't know if I am, but I think I am. So I think— so, but at the same time, to sit down and focus on something like writing, like, you can't just piece something together that's good. I think you really have to sit down and, I mean, you really want to focus on the core of it and stop and, like, really focus on it. But then the rest of it you're describing is so, you know, so much ADD, so much going on, so many moving parts. So it's kind of interesting, the stop and the starts and where to focus and when not to and how do you manage all that.

Yeah, like for me it's not really about ADD as much as it is just about, I don't know, it's just the A part of it, you know. I just feel like I always have to be focusing on something. It's not that I feel that, you know, I'm constantly stopping and starting. Like when I think of ADD, I think of somebody who's like, ooh, shiny! You know, that's not me. It's just, it's for me, it's just about, you know, having so much stuff going on in my life that it feels very full. And I've always operated that way. This isn't something that has been brought about by the digital age or by social media or this always-on mentality. I've always been on. I mean, that's just always the way it was. You know, when I was a kid, I used to keep a jar in my room and in my desk, in my Downtime, you know, I used to write down things to do just in case I ever got bored, because I was always terrified of being bored. So I would just go over to my little jar and pick something out and it would tell me what to do, like, you know, I don't know, write a song or learn to play the guitar. I mean, like, really, really silly things like that. But I've always been that way. I just think it's my personality.

So how about for— what do you suggest for people that— it's funny, because actually a couple weeks ago I had the pleasure of speaking to a student audience at San Jose State here in San Jose, and it was one of my favorite speaking engagements because they were all bright-eyed and ready to go, and like their careers were just upon them, and they were like— the one question they asked me that I answered, I don't know if I would say it the same way again or not, but it was, how should we How would you go about getting a job right now? My response was to start writing.

I was just going to pick that.

Like blog. But here's the thing, they all didn't— that wasn't enough for them. And that's why I think I'd answer differently, because how do you just start? And I can't remember how I started blogging, but I somehow did. Like, how would you tell somebody who isn't blogging that they should, how to start doing it?

How to start blogging. I would just say focus on the audience that you want to attract, and maybe that audience is only the attention of a particular industry or a particular company, but really start focusing on Not just the platform itself, on blogging, which implies that you're focusing on expression, right? But really focusing on flipping it a little bit, focusing on what do you have to say about your industry or the audience, writing for a particular audience. I think that's the key in my mind. I tell my kids this all the time. My kids are— one's in high school and one's just out of college. And if you want to get attention, you know, the The way to get a job is not to just send out resumes, but it's to, you know, it's the whole inbound method, right, of just giving yourself that voice, giving yourself permission to have that voice, and then, you know, just start saying it. What's incumbent in there, of course, is to, you know, doing the research piece of it, you know, getting familiar with who the players are in your industry, what the key issues are, you know, participating in social channels so you You are able to build those connections. All that stuff is inherent. So I don't think it's just about writing, although I think it starts there. I also think it has to do with engaging and sharing and giving back.

Well, I definitely believe in sharing. I've heard. I'm going to jump over to some questions, because we've got a lot of them. This first one is— sorry if I say your name wrong— Shival. What is the best way to overcome writer's block if you are facing the challenge of producing great content?

So I don't actually believe in writer's block. I don't really think it's a real thing. I mean, in my mind, when people have writer's block, what they really have is thinking block. You know, they just haven't thought something through. through enough to really have a point of view or know what they want to say about something. So I would say, first of all, figure out what is it that's stopping you from writing. So maybe it is more of a thinking problem, maybe you do have thinker's block, not writer's block. But the other thing is that I think there's a fear of the blank page, can be a real thing, but I don't think that's writer's block, I think that's just fear of a blank page. Ways around that. You could try dictating the first draft of a blog post. There's lots of people, lots of people that Bryan and I know who produce their first draft that way, maybe because it feels more conversational to just speak than to write, or maybe just because it's easier. You know, people don't get speaker's block as much as they say they do. So that's a good way to do it. And then to use something like a Rev.com Or a speech pad or something like that to transcribe. Casting Words is another one. There's all kinds of really easy, inexpensive solutions to get what you've spoken as a first draft back and edit it into something else.

What do you think of alcohol? Let's just dive right in.

I'm a big fan of alcohol, Bryan, as you know. Which is why I produce these, you know, these whole— can you see? It's probably backwards, right? Wrong side of the screen. So if all else fails, just start drinking. That's pretty much my advice.

There's nothing like a glass of wine that gets me writing.

That's so funny. I actually am the opposite, you know. It's like a glass of wine or a beer, like sometimes it'll offer that sort of writing lubrication, but for me, a lot of times it just makes me— actually, you know what I should do? I should try doing a spoken first draft with a glass of wine.

That would be interesting.

It tends to make me a little bit more loquacious. I'm almost allergic to the idea of actually dictating the first draft, because that's not how my brain works, that's not how I'm wired. So for me, I need that blank piece of paper. There's something that feels safer about that. So maybe just as an experiment, I'll try that. You've inspired me to try that.

Well, if you could try Red Bull and vodka, I'd like to see how that turns out.

Wow, I would like to see how that turns out. A lot of people probably would.

Here's the next question from JS Gilbert. Ann, what percentage of the content out there would you actually refer to as My thought is that it's probably 5% or less.

Wow. That's interesting. Like, all the content in the world is good content. I don't know. Actually, the number that just popped into my head was more like 25%, but now I'm wondering, am I just too entirely optimistic? I mean, I will say that just looking at business content, like The content that I read every day, a lot of it is actually so much better than it was, say, a couple of years ago. So it could just be that I really, really just want to be incredibly optimistic about businesses and the ways that they can do good content. But I don't know, 5% feels really harsh. Yeah. I don't know how we'd ever live.

Yeah, that'd be hard. It's a gut feel for sure.

Are you getting feedback?

Am I getting feedback?

Yeah, from me.

A tiny, tiny bit, yeah.

I can hear it suddenly.

I can hear what you're saying. Let's see, Maya says we are getting some feedback suddenly. So we'll just work through it. We'll see if it goes away. Jack has a question for you. He said, how much does personality and passion play in content when capturing an audience through all the noise?

Yeah, I think it's huge, actually. Yeah, I still hear that feedback. Let me try my audio. Now I can't hear you. Can you hear me?

Okay.

There we go, there we go.

How's that?

I can still hear myself. Got it, got it. All right, I'm going to respond to Jack. I think it's huge, actually. You know, it's that old saying that, you know, no one will care about what you have to say until they know that you care. So I think having a passion for what you're writing about is important. You know, there's everything that you could say has probably been said, you know, in one way or another. It is being said by somebody else as you're saying it. So I think the only thing that has a differentiator is how you say it. I do think that having The ability to create content with a point of view, a personality, a tone of voice as I call it, a brand voice if you're working for a bigger organization. I think that's everything. Again, I think it's a really undervalued piece of content marketing in general. That's a lot better. That's a lot better.

Muting me seems to be the trick. I think I have talker's block. Okay, so Michael Townsend said, should content be what the author believes to be true or what the audience thinks is true?

Um, I just think it should be true, period. I think what's throwing me off is that word true. I think it should be— I mean, I think it should be— it should just reflect the truth, period, is how I think about it. But who should it please, I guess, is how I think about it. How should it be pitched? It should be pitched toward— The truth. Audience. So when you're talking about your own products and services, you don't talk about what they do, you talk about what they do for the customer, for your prospect, for the audience. And so I guess that's how I would answer that. I mean, I think you should always tell the truth, your own truth, and so I'm not sure I understand the difference between truthfulness and honesty.

Well, I would— can you hear me okay, by the way? I just switched to my headphone. Yes. I would also— you know, there's a whole conversation there around columnists versus bloggers, and more— and this may not be what he intended, but I always wonder about the facts and the research that went into some blogs versus You know, paid columnists and even paid bloggers that spend a quality amount of time really putting, you know, the right research and the right facts into an article.

Is that a question? Or was that an observation?

So let's move to JS Gilbert.

I will say that, you know, I do think it's important to To research. I mean, there's a lot of bloggers out there still who don't think about research as part of their job. And so in my mind, I do think finding out what else has been said, really grounding whatever you're saying, not just in what other people have said before, but more importantly, in wrapping some data around it and getting as close as you can to the source, the ultimate source of that data. And looking for credible sources of data too. I see a lot of blog posts who are relying on second or third-hand data, misquoted from somebody else, but they don't take it back to the original source. So seek out that original source, and you might find that it's been sort of misinterpreted unintentionally along the way. And then the second thing is just to try to find the best sources that You can. I always look for reputable sources like the New York Times or the Washington Post or these sort of quasi-agencies like Pew Research, for example, ones that are sort of recognized as being sources of data or information. And if you only are relying on data that's produced by, say, a PR company on behalf of a client or something, something like that, that's fine. That doesn't mean that it's not reputable, but it does mean that you should at least be aware of potential agenda or ties, and you should disclose it as much. And so I guess in my mind, that's telling the truth. I think really just revealing as much as you can and really digging in a little bit, I do think that that's really important. And I don't feel that way because I believe that social has any imperative. I just I think it's because as human beings we sort of owe as much to one another. So why not? I mean, the beauty of the internet is that it's all right there. Why wouldn't you seek it out? Why wouldn't you pull it into the story?

Yeah, my 10-year-old came to me the other night and said that he had paralyzed dream disorder. And I'm like, how the hell did you— how do you have that? And he's like, I Googled it. I couldn't figure out why in the middle of the night my dreams were waking me up and I was scared. And I'm like, so you have paralyzed dream disorder? And he goes, yeah, but here's the good news. I Googled a solution for it, and now I— and all you have to do is this thing, and you meditate, and then it disappears. I'm like, so you're okay now? And he goes, yeah, I'm fine. Okay. Sounds good. I've never even

heard of that.

That's amazing. And yeah, there's so much, like, you know, obviously when you go to the medical side, that can get a little scary. But

so— I thought you

were

going to say, and all I have to do is buy this juice cleanse program for, you know, $100. $120 a month for the next 12 months and I'll be all set.

I wouldn't put it past him. He comes up with all kinds of weird stuff. So Brian Fonzo had a question, our good friend Brian. He said, curious if Anne feels brands and leaders must change the story they tell to engage millennials, or just how and where?

Whether they should change the story they tell to engage millennials? No, I don't think so. I mean, I do think that if you are looking to engage millennials, there are probably some— and depending on the story you're trying to tell and the brand that you're trying to tell the story on behalf of, I think there are platforms that you should look into, like Instagram, for example. My kids are huge into Instagram. So I think really seeking out the places where they exist, and then tailoring the story that you're telling accordingly. So obviously if you're using Instagram, you want to tell a different story. But I think ultimately the story doesn't change as much as your way of telling it, and how you're going to tell it. So I don't know if you'd ever prospected on that, Bryan. That's

hard. Yeah, well, I agree. I agree. I think— so yeah, we'll just move on. No, I'm kidding. So I think anytime you try to change something, it's not— I know this is one of the cliché-est words we could use right now, but it's not authentic. when you try to change something to benefit the audience. So I would never want to change something to get to attach or connect with an audience. I'd probably attach myself to somebody who spoke their language maybe a little bit more. And like, I'd ask Bryan if he would come onto a chat and start talking with the millennials versus me trying to talk like one. You know, so that seems a little more authentic and real than than me trying to change the story. So I tend to agree.

Well, you see a lot of brands doing that on YouTube, for example. It used to be that these YouTubers had these massive audiences on YouTube, but it was a little bit outside of the culture. And now so many brands have tapped into that, and they're tapping the audiences that these YouTubers have built and then just making more sense. Yeah, there's lots of great examples of that, just similar over

time. Yeah, good. We're going to keep rolling here. The next one is from Julie. Where do you and your colleagues find inspiration and insights that shape your content development efforts?

Yeah, I mean, I get ideas from everywhere. Like I was saying, I don't know if you were here at the beginning, Julie, when I showed Field notes, but this has tons of great ideas. When I see something that I think is interesting, that sort of makes my— I don't know how to say this— it sort of makes my pulse quicken a little bit, which sounds incredibly— it sounds a little goofy, I know, but it is an instinct that you develop that's like, yeah, I could use that someday. And even if I think that that's something that ultimately could be relevant to Yeah. To my audience or to an audience somewhere, I'll just sort of write it down. It's a matter of training myself to first notice it and then secondly having the discipline to just record it somewhere so that it's accessible to me because I'll forget instantly otherwise. And so I think that's it. I mean, I think a lot of it has to do with just putting yourself into that mindset. The designer Michael Wolf says, what already exists is an inspiration. And I think about that all the time. I think about that when I'm stumped for ideas. If I can't flip through this and see something that suddenly just— probably something incredibly ordinary, but I wrote it down because it made me think of something that might be relevant to my writing. So I think it's a matter of just tuning yourself to look For those things, and then writing them down, and then just spinning them a little bit and sharing them.

Do you have a degree in this? Is this what you went to school for, is writing?

Yes, I thought you were going to do a break. I have a degree in field notes. I

have a degree in Evernote.

Yeah, I have a degree in Evernote. Oh my God, I have like an anti-degree in Evernote. Yeah, no, I went to school. I went to journalism school, and I also have a degree in English and also in journalism because I always— the thing is, I always wanted to be a journalist, but the truth is I'm not a very good journalist because I'm actually more of a— my heart is more of a storyteller's heart. And so, like, I used to work at the Boston Globe, One of my first jobs out of school was as a journalist. Actually, not straight out of school, but within a couple years. And my editor kept handing me back pieces that I turned in at the time, and they were just— he's like, too long, too long. You only have like 4 inches to tell this story. And I'm like, what? I'm like just warming up. So I always had this tension within me of wanting to tell a bigger story. Putting it into a bigger context. And even now, I mean, I write blog posts that are probably way more bloated than so many other posts out there. It's because I think there's a lot of relevant detail that I want to include that I think really for me is my voice. So I think it's kind of my philosophy about content is sort of one in part from my English world from my literary world.

I'm trying to balance between my questions and theirs because I've got more questions for you, but I'll bounce back. I'll come back over to mine later. So Julie— no, no, no, sorry, Wahiba, hopefully I'm saying that right. How do you make sure that your brand has a consistent online identity? When your social media accounts are managed by different people?

That's a tough one. You've really got to get things on the same page. You know, my biggest recommendation is if you are— sort of have this decentralized approach to managing your content and your social, is to create a style guide, which I know sounds like an incredibly boring thing to do, but it doesn't have to be. I think it's just a matter of picking one of the style guides that that's out there, like a Chicago Manual style or an AP style book. Yahoo Style Guide is a really good one. And then adding to it, either through— in a place that's accessible, like a Google Doc or keeping it in Basecamp or someplace where everybody has access to it. And just adding on to that, just some basics around your brand. So this is what we sound like. This is the voice that we write in. I think the most effective way to do that is to think of 3 things that really do define your company. So leave out things like truthful and friendly and reliable. All that stuff is table stakes. Any company should be that. But really think about, think deeply about what are the 3 elements that might define your brand, your voice. Snarky, for example? Are you clever? Are you knowledgeable? I had an interview last week with a company who I think is doing some super fun stuff, and one of their— and they're an agency, you know, so— and one of their words was, what was it, creatively weird. And I love that because it's like, it was just like, it just sort of told you Immediately, OK, so if something, whatever we're producing, has to have an element of data-driven view to it, at least it can't be in conflict with that. So come up with your 3 words. I talk about this all the time, or I have been lately. It's something, again, I think a lot of companies don't do, but it's an exercise that you can do at your heart. So once you sort of have that, write it down somewhere. Write it down in a place that's accessible. And keep adding to it. Keep adding to that Google Doc. Or in Dropbox or wherever it is that you keep it, and then start to build an approach that conveys the tone of voice that you're trying to have everybody keep.

So I've got another question from me, and then we've got just a couple more. My question for you is, what— What— when you're writing, how do you balance wordplay from telling the story? Like creative writing as you're going through it? Because you talk about in your book like different things like using adverbs and weakling adverbs and how you're structuring and things like that versus just telling the story. Like where's the balance there of the difference between journalism And creative writing, where do you sit?

Right, I think of what I do, and actually this is true of a lot of magazines too, as sort of a creative nonfiction. That's why I always had a hard time fitting into the true journalism roles, because my approach was always a little bit more creative. I always wanted to enhance the story a little bit more with lots of color that you really don't get in journalism. So most of the things that I produce now, fiction is sort of the genre I would pitch it into. You know, that's the same writing at a much higher and more polished level that you see, like, say, in the work— I'm sorry, I'm just gonna turn off my Skype so that's not happening. Sorry. Sorry, that just distracted me. So yeah, so that's the way I balance it. So I tell the story first, and just, it's, for me, it's become part of my process, you know. So I'll just, as I mentioned earlier, when I'm putting together that laundry list, I'll sort of, you know, write all that stuff down. And then for me, a lot of the creative elements, you know, the humor, the asides, the witticisms, you know, all All that stuff that I think of as style, all that is added on in rewriting. I add all that after the fact. So to me, the most important thing is get the story down. That's the journalist in me. But then I can't leave it like that, because my storytelling heart comes in over here and says, well, we could make this a whole lot more fun, a whole lot more engaging, and a whole lot more interesting to read if we added all this other stuff. So that's the way that I balance it. I don't know if that answers your question. No, it does.

Yeah, it totally did. I have a journalism degree as well, and I had teachers that always used to help me structure my sentences, and especially like the headline, like how short it had to be.

Yes.

And I was like, kill me now.

Right.

Because I, you know, I don't— I think it's really, you know, I definitely veered towards the creative aspect over the Factual, structured aspect. So, you know, I definitely identify with what you're saying.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the problem with it. That's in part why I wanted to write Everybody Writes as well, because, you know, a lot of people haven't taken a writing course since college, sometimes since high school. You know, my daughter's in high school, and the way that she's taught how to Right. Is that traditional still, is that traditional 5-paragraph essay. You know, your opening argument, your point number 1, your point number 2, your point number 3, your close. And it's like, it's crazy to me because there is no one way to write. I think it's much more interesting if you think of the fact that there are many different ways to write, many different ways to tell a story and to excite people. That how is where, how to tell that story is where the And so I wanted to give people permission to know that it doesn't have to be, you know, 5 paragraphs. I've got 5 paragraphs, no one wants to read that. It's not that interesting other than apparently high school English teachers. Now I'm going to get letters from high school English teachers.

So Susie, who's actually fielding questions, popped her own question into the midst How do you measure successful content performance? Do you want comments on your site, which is a conversation unto itself, shares, engagements with tweets? What's your measure for success on content performance?

Yeah, I mean, I would say yes to all of those things. It really depends on what your goal is. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. And I think that's something that you can measure in any way with your content. For me personally, how do I think about the success of a piece of content that I'm putting up on the blog post, for example? I always look at social shares. I mean, I look at page views and time on site and all that other kind of stuff to give me a sort of sense of how things are trending on the site and whether this was a particular post that resonated with the folks I wanted to resonate with. But I always look at shares because Because to me, there's nothing more significant than that in the sense that— and I know you'll agree with this— in the sense that if someone is willing to share something for you, if they're willing to plant a flag in your camp and say, I love this so much that I want to share it with everybody around me, they're essentially saying, this is important, and you should see this. And so I do think that that's a really significant I don't know, it's a signal that I think is really important.

So what— just one more question, then I promise I'll let you go. What do you think is next for you in the next few years? How do you keep creative? And I know you have a lot going on, but you seem like the type of person who always has something kind of the next thing. thing that maybe keeps you creative. What is that for you?

That's a good question. I mean, the thing about our work, the thing about my work anyway, is that I never quite feel like a master. It's like, I mean, I think I'm a decent writer. I don't think I'm a great writer. I'd like to be a great writer. It's like, I think I'm a good speaker. I don't think I'm a great speaker, and I would like to be a great speaker. Other people might call me a great writer or a great speaker, but, you know, it's a little like calling yourself a great parent. It's only meaningful when other people say it to you, and so— or when other people say it in front of you. So I don't know, I'm just like, that's why I love the this industry that I'm in because I feel like I'm always getting better, I'm always iterating. It's like, you know, if you look at any author over 20 years or 30 years, you know, you can see a vast difference between where they began and where they started. Sorry, where they started and where they ended up. If you read early Hemingway, it's very different than the later Hemingway. So I think that's true of us That's all. I think as long as I'm always growing and improving, that's what's interesting to me. In terms of how do I get there, I mean, I don't know. That's a good question. I guess I'm just like, I am so excited by what's going on in business generally. I think that the opportunity there is still so vast to really give companies the tools and the inspiration to tell stories. That interests me. And so I continue to be really challenged and inspired by the analysis. We've seen some amazing examples of stories that have been processed in a way that's really good. So I think the more that I see, the more that I get interested in it. And I don't know. I don't know what my next book will be. I don't know what my next big project will be. There's nothing right now that I'm— I'm still recovering from the last one, so there's nothing right now that I can say, yes, that's definitely a direction I'm going to. The time between Content Rules and Everybody Writes was almost 5 years. And for me, the postpartum lasts that long. It's like I need that long to get over the last baby before I can think about having the next one. Yeah. So that's just how I think. That's how I function. The other thing is, I will say, is that I never want to write a book. I never wanted to write Constant Rules, really. I never wanted to write anything. And the only reason to write a book, in my mind, is when you can't not write it. And so there's nothing right now that I think I can't not write. When I hear that, I will put it in field notes, and then I'll know that that's the next thing.

Yeah. Well, congrats on the book and everything that's happened.

Thank you.

And for everything that you do. I appreciate it, and I read and watch and listen to everything that you do and love your work.

Likewise. Congrats to you, and I love everything that you do.

Thank you.

It's just such a joy to be here with you. I really appreciate it.

Thank you so much. I appreciate it. And to everyone out there who joined us today, thank you for all your great questions. Thanks for your questions and for joining another H2H chat. We'll see you next Monday. Until then, Ann, appreciate it. We'll see you soon, and feel free to drop into the tweet chat community. You'll see a ton of tweets there waiting for you.

Cool.

And we will sign off now and say to everybody, cheers. We'll see you soon. Bye-bye.

Great.